Revathi released to custody of her parents, her 18-month daughter still no birth certificate

Revathi released to custody of her parents...

I have just come back from the Shah Alam High Court which dismissed the habeas corpus application for the release of Revathi A/P Masoosai/Siti Fatimah binti Abdul Karim filed by her husband Suresh A/L Veerappan on the ground that she had been released from 180-day detention at the Ulu Yam Islamic Rehabilitation Centre by the Malacca Syariah High Court yesterday.

Revathi was released to the custody of her parents by the Malacca Syariah High Court yesterday evening with the order that she could not convert out of Islam. Syariah High Court judge Radzi said Islam is not only between man and Allah but is also the responsibility between the community and country, and to come out of it is “treason”.

Is it right and proper for the Malacca Syariah High Court judge to describe as treason a conversion out of Islam?

Isn’t it ridiculous to release Revathi to the custody of her parents when she is an adult woman of 29 years with a 18-month daughter from her marriage to Suresh according to Hindu rites, with the couple stoutly defending their family despite Revathi’s 180-day detention?

What does the Syariah Court’s order of release of Revathi to the custody of her parents mean? Could she be punished and even re-detained and sent again to Ulu Yam Rehabilitation Centre on ground of breach of term of her release order?

Revathi had been detained for six months since 9th January 2007 and sent to the Ulu Yam rehabilitation centre, and her family of three forcibly separated in three different locations when the Malacca Islamic Religious Department also took their daughter Diviya Dharshini from the custody of the father and placed her in care of the grandparents on March 26, 2007.

Diviya Dharshini is now more than 18 months old and she has no birth certificate — an example of bureaucracy gone crazy.

The lawyer for the aggrieved family, Karpal Singh, will file an appeal to the Federal Court against the Shah Alam High Court dismissal of the habeas corpus application, contending that although Revathi had been released rendering her habeas corpus application an academic exercise, there are important public issues concerning constitutional rights and fundamental liberties which the court should have addressed as they concern not just parties to the case but the larger public.

  1. #1 by gana on Friday, 6 July 2007 - 2:48 pm

    r we suprise with d syariah Ct Judge’s obiter/judgement against who want out of islam for thier own reasons.., dont they feel shame of themself by calling in the name of god juch [deleted] mindset…. look at d Marimuthu’s case also seprating d mother who married for 20yrs and now has to leave the children & husband in the name of Allah but only d god know d truth behind wat really happen. well all my fellow sober malaysians pls wake up before this [deleted] people continue to be ruing our life ..let throw BN away…which is d root of this problem

  2. #2 by izrafeil on Friday, 6 July 2007 - 2:48 pm


  3. #3 by awesome on Friday, 6 July 2007 - 3:07 pm

    Kindly excuse me, but I think some people are so insecure that they will do anything in the name of God. If God is truly big and Almighty does he need some puny humans who from outerspace can’t even be viewed as a speck of dust to defend God?

    It is certainly not God’s way. It is insecure people who will do anything in the name of religion.

    Forcing some one in and out of a religion is absurd. If one believes God in his/her heart or does not believe in one’s heart there is nothing we should do to force it. It is telling a child to sit and he will sit because he fears your cane but he is standing in his heart. I doubt God who sees the heart of man appreciate that kind of submission to him.

    Come on! What is the Syariah court afraid of? It looks like they are driven by fear that they become so irrational and ridiculous. Perhaps we should relax a bit and perhaps too the powers of syariah that is becoming absolute in the so-called name of God need to be strip away.

    Who may I ask is Syariah court answerable to? Who can correct Syariah court if they have gone in a wrong tangent? If there is no one then perhaps we should study how to set that right.

    Though this appears to be a sensitive issue. Really I think I am just being vocal about that which bothers many people as well.

  4. #4 by sotong on Friday, 6 July 2007 - 3:35 pm

    True religion has always been between man/woman with the Almighty.

    Treason? To rule by fear, you got to create fear.

  5. #5 by SocratesPlato on Friday, 6 July 2007 - 3:51 pm

    I read about these Islamic laws which are making people suffer individually and dividing family members by force, countless news from Lina Joy to the dead body which are not even allowed to rest in peace! I wonder why the religion is creating so much problem to the society who are still alive to even the dead as well as making life so much difficult not only for those in the religion but people who tries to live together with people who are Muslims.

    The American couple being raided at night story in Langkawi as well as the latest one below found in TheStar is telling me that the religion is making life more difficult for everyone.

    Singer held over dressing @

    I just wonder why this religion is creating so much problem to the world? Are the believers themselves not ashamed with all these stories giving bad publicity to the religion itself day in day out in the news? If my religion is reported in the newspaper day after day to create so much problem to believers as well as non-believers, I wonder why I am still a believer. I wonder what is the purpose for such a religion to be created in the first place? To complicate lives?

    Now, every religion in this world has their own recreations of false teachings or cults base on the misintepretations of certain believers who then come out and create a new sub-religion which they claim is true to the teachings. We can call them cults or whatever. However, why among so many religions on earth, only this one creates so much problem to every on earth?

    We call these suicide bombers extremists or terrorists if you like. They are claiming themselves to be from this religion, fighting for their God, causing so much inconvenience to everyone on earth. The latest being the amount of liquid,gel and water you can handcarry on board to take a plane. The amount of security checks are getting more and more ridiculous. I wonder how much more inconvenient it will get next. If these people are creating more troubles in the future, we need to have even more outrageous scans to the extent of checking in 3 hours before a flight.

    My point is why other religions’ cults or recreations of misintepretated believers do not create so much problem to the world? OK, I think I took the topic too far. Let’s go back to my first question. Why is this religion creating so much inconvenience and problem to everyone (believers and non-believers)?

  6. #6 by good coolie on Friday, 6 July 2007 - 4:20 pm

    When an adult is released into the custody of another person, that means that the person so released is not really released. Where is the constitutional justification to restrict the liberty of this person?
    Habeas Corpus would lie, indeed! Now, I tell everyone involved:
    Habeas Corpus is the last bastion of liberty. Today I am threatened, tomorrow it could be you. I am especially adressing this to those who would argue that Habeas Corpus does not avail against Syariah Court decisions. The constitution is supreme, not the Syariah Court.

  7. #7 by ethnicmalaysian on Friday, 6 July 2007 - 4:39 pm

    It is interesting to note that those bloggers on RPK’s website that defended the court’s decision in the Lina Joy’s case do so based on the point that it is a question of jurisdiction, ie. Lina Joy, being born a Muslim should have gone ‘quietly’ to the Syariah Court to obtain redress rather than to the civil courts, and to let the Syariah Court deliberate and judge her case on an equitable basis.

    Well, this decision of the Syariah Court certainly puts paid to that course of action, given that apostasy is viewed as ‘treason’. Would you seek redress in a court for an action that is a predetermined ‘crime’ ie to criminalise yourself? Treason is a very serious crime, which i would have thought is punishable by death. Perhaps the Syariah court is compassionate after all.
    It would have been so much better if it is made very clear upfront that there is no such thing as freedom of religion for Muslims, and that the said constitutional provision only applies to non-Muslims. Amend the constitution to reflect today’s reality, I say, and avoid all hypocrisy on this matter.

  8. #8 by k1980 on Friday, 6 July 2007 - 4:44 pm

    Is it right and proper for the Malacca Syariah High Court judge to describe as treason a conversion out of Islam?

    Defination of ‘treason’ from The American Heritage Dictionary
    trea·son (trÄ“’zÉ™n) n.
    1. Violation of allegiance toward one’s country or sovereign, especially the betrayal of one’s country by waging war against it or by consciously and purposely acting to aid its enemies.
    2. A betrayal of trust or confidence.

  9. #9 by HJ Angus on Friday, 6 July 2007 - 5:01 pm

    Now if we apply some modern concepts into religions, the following would apply.

    You will accept that God has super-duper solar powered computers that can keep track of whatever you do and even what you do not do.

    He can even read your thoughts and will know what you are going to think.

    All the details are entered into a vast database that has information from the time of the first human and the database is flexible to last untill the last human vanishes.

    It’s a scary thought but that also means we should be wasting time, effort and money on trying to keep anyone in whatever religion as God will understand and humans are really so infinitely weak.

  10. #10 by Beggar in Boleh-Land on Friday, 6 July 2007 - 5:12 pm

    Totally agreed with Awesome and others,

    Heaven has no place for this extremist outerspace species who commited crime to separate one family and let them suffer in the endless darkness.

    I would like to see the punishment for them by exploiting GOD to create miserable thing in our earth.

    Y only this relegion keeps on creating endless problems, sorrows….
    Y couldn’t us live in peace as we only have 70+ years on earth.
    Y they can do whatever they wan but others remain silent.
    Y our secular government which is promoting our country as a moderate country didn’t do anything, PM should interfere and give this kind of idiots some lesson.
    YYY to many Y.

    I foresee there will be more extremist case afloate in the future.

    Lets pray to GOD to bless this country.

  11. #11 by LittleBird on Friday, 6 July 2007 - 7:24 pm

    Read the news in Mkini.

    Forcing Revathi to eat beef? Commonlah don’t tell me there is not one muslim to speak out against this injustice.

    I am so worried it can happen to any of our family member without us knowing. Like Moorthy’s case.

    What would it take for the PM or people like Zaid, Sharil, Anwar(?), PM (?) to see the pain of the separation of 18 years old baby from having a complete family.

    Or should we start a fund to sponsor them to live in a place where the basic rights of live form respected. A right to live with the spouse and child.

  12. #12 by TalkisCheap on Friday, 6 July 2007 - 7:39 pm

    “According to Islamic laws, a Muslim woman is not allowed to serve or entertain a man who is not her husband in a place where immoral activities usually take place,”- The Perak Religious Department (JAIP).

    Please applied the law for all Muslim Women in Malaysia. Which means all Muslim (women) Entertainers be it Siti Norhaliza or Ning Baizura and all the rest of you out there… better change your career. And even Actress and TV host too. Don’t forget all sports women.

    Talk is Cheap!

  13. #13 by wtf2 on Friday, 6 July 2007 - 8:00 pm

    Imagine all entertainers needing to wear their stuffy headscarfs in tropical malaysia, with sleeves covering the entire length of the hand and pants the entire legs, scarf the neck and veil the face in order to prevent exposure of skin to arouse the male hormones watching the show. It is ridiculous.

    As for a religion forced onto the person – it’s pretty meaningless when one’s faith is not there. It’s like the dark ages.

    They will need a religious revolution to modernise Islam. Chuck out the old self proclaim experts manning the courts – wonder who put them there in the first place. The courts need regulating as do the fiery sermons in their Mosques.

    when quality people is missing from the top, the rot will naturally fester down as in the current government.

    The grassroots Natives remain ignorant and will easily buy anything the “elite” throw at them.

    This is of course an impossible notion – it’s like getting rid of Umno which may very well turn out to be the easier task although impossible in the foreseeable future.

    Wishful thinking.

  14. #14 by trashed on Friday, 6 July 2007 - 8:29 pm

    A quote from a commentary fron Hassan Butt (once part of a radical British Muslim terrorist group) :
    “If our country is going to take on radicals and violent extremists, Muslim scholars must go back to the books and come forward with a refashioned set of rules and a revised understanding of the rights and responsibilities of Muslims whose homes and souls are firmly planted in what I’d like to term the Land of Co-existence.”

    Full commentary is at,,2115832,00.html

  15. #15 by Billy on Friday, 6 July 2007 - 8:35 pm

    Leaving a religion is tantamount to commiting treason? Oh, please help us somebody. “Treason” is already committed by the higher ups in the government relating to corruption, murder, incest, sodomy, allowing illegal immigrants to enter and given ICs, etc which have brought shame to this country. When will actions be taken against these treacherous leaders? Why can’t these people for once give the public some intelligent answers. Oh I forget, it’s the education system, no wonder.

    Only today, a Muslim girl singer was hassled in Ipoh by the Perak religious department and the reasons given were:
    1. Singing infront of men
    2. Singing in an immoral place, where Muslims are not supposed to serve drinks to customers.
    3. Earning immoral money, read non-Muslims.
    4. Scantily dressed.

    If item #1 was to hold water, then singers like Sharifah Aini, Fauziah Latiff, Anita Sarawak and Siti Nurhaliza be arrested for singing to men.
    So the club is an immoral place. Is the club a prostitute den? If Muslim staff are not supposed to work in this kind of environment where they need to serve drinks, then so should the staff of MAS, all the hotel and clubs in the country; and not forgetting instruct all the Muslim staff to resign from Anchor-Guinness and Carlsberg.
    Earning immoral money? Then for heaven’s sake, will all these Muslims donate their money to charity and devised a currency of their own. Remember, these ringgit notes could have come from a stall that sold pork, casino, liquor shop, bak kut teh shop, etc.

    Help us somebody, anybody!!!!!

  16. #16 by Richard Teo on Friday, 6 July 2007 - 8:40 pm

    Didnt some learned muslims sugested in the case of Lina Joy that she should go to the Syariah court in order to opt out of Islam?Yes, that is the result if Lina had gone to the Syariah court.Also she would be sent to the UlU yam Rehab centre for 180 days until she recant.In Malaysia Islam imprison their followers. They just dont have any choice at all.

  17. #17 by Richard Teo on Friday, 6 July 2007 - 8:51 pm

    It is not the religion that is at fault. It is the fault of our weak leaders who have allowed the situation to regress to this stage. Go to Turkey if you have the chance and you will be surprise how Islam is practised there.Muslims and christains can inter marry without any conversion and the govt does not interfere in any religious matters. Head scarves is banned in govt buildings and the people value and protect secularism although 95% OF ITS POPULATION IS MUSLIMS. That is how islam is practised in Turkey and that is the beautiful face of Islam.

  18. #18 by Jong on Friday, 6 July 2007 - 9:06 pm

    Shameful indeed! What good does it do with forced followers when there’s no faith left in them? This is sick.

  19. #19 by ENDANGERED HORNBILL on Friday, 6 July 2007 - 9:16 pm

    Any religion worth its salt or its value in gold or if it’s God is worthy of worship, must be able to withstand the scrutiny of man and its worth tested against the realities of modernity and common sense.

    Any religion that resorts to force and compulsion and its adherents enslaved or chained against his or her will must surely be pathetic if it cannot or is unable to command the allegiance of the heart. Makes sense?

    Any religion or cult can secure the lip-loyalty of its adherents through a system of threat and fear. That’s common, even in Japan and the USA, amongst deviant Christian groups and other cultic groups. But such cult and heretical groups do not last as their novelty wears off and the law catches up with their socially aberrant beliefs and practices. No apologist can defend a faith that defies common sense which the Almighty God has given us adequately.

    So, in Revathi’s case where is the common sense?

    And in Malaysia, where has common sense gone wrong?

  20. #20 by HJ Angus on Friday, 6 July 2007 - 9:24 pm

    Many Malaysians are still in denial with the abuse of basic human rights.

    Just imagine being detained 180 days for not wanting to continue in your present religion for whatever reason.

    Is it not a waste of money? That expense of maintaining the prison and feeding you would have been better used helping some old widows and neglected children.

    Where does the state get such funds? Taxes from haram companies should not be allowed for such purposes. In fact taxes from non-Muslims should be not used.

    This woman and her child are now forced to live with her parents and from most accounts the relationship does not appear healthy for all concerned.

    One can almost expect a family tragedy in the near future.

  21. #21 by ENDANGERED HORNBILL on Friday, 6 July 2007 - 9:28 pm

    I ask again: Malaysia, where is your common sense?

    REad on!

    Finance Minister must explain money printing contract worth RM600 million

    [print] Category: General Posted by: Raja Petra


    I received information regarding the contract for money printing that has once again raised serious questions regarding the Prime Minister’s commitment to fight corruption in Malaysia.

    A new company, Focus, has been awarded the contract to print Malaysian currency through a RM 600 million loan by Bank Pembangunan.

    This development raises many questions: Was this decision agreed upon by Bank Negara Malaysia? Can this new company guarantee the integrity of our currency in local and international markets?

    I am concerned because this contract should in fact be handled by Bank Negara Malaysia, which has a reputable record of printing currency according to established procedures. Secondly, we feel that the government’s decision to award this contract to an untested local company will raise suspicions, cause a public crisis of confidence and open avenues for potential abuse.

    A contract of this importance should be awarded using transparent, established procedures in order to ensure the security and integrity of Malaysia’s currency.


  22. #22 by LittleBird on Friday, 6 July 2007 - 10:12 pm

    Funny..if only had DSAI resigned while in power we wouldn’t be so sceptical of his good intention.

  23. #23 by sheriff singh on Friday, 6 July 2007 - 10:29 pm

    Treason? Treason?

    What the fcuk is this reasoning by the Syariah Court??? No wonder we all feel, perceive and know that we will not and never get any justice in the Syariah Courts. They are run by bigotted, narrow-minded, paranoid etc etc morons under the pretense of dispensing ‘justice’.

    No way should any one, Muslims included, submitted to this “justice” system as exists in Bolehland where justice is shockingly lacking and unavailable, lacks transparancy and accountabilty, without any proper sense, reasoning or logic.

    A grown up released to the custody of her parents? Joke. Not allowed to live with her husband? Joke. Malacca Religious Department will monitor her movements and activities? Another Joke. Cannot ever leave the religion. Joke. Treason? Joke!!!

    What about her 18 months old daughter? Will she never, ever get a birth certificate? Is this baby a Muslim or Hindu?

    Gawd. And the Sleepy Beauty say we practise Islam Hadhari, civilisational and “progressive” Islam.

    And the many Muslims, especially those “moderates” and “intellectuals” who had said and written “Go to the Syariah Courts to obtain justice” and ” go through the process and the Syariah Courts will allow you to leave the religion”, hah, what say you now?

    Is Islam now confirmed a dead end religion as proven and confirmed by today’s judgement? Is it “Hotel California”?

    Looks like the next 50 years will be worse.

  24. #24 by sheriff singh on Friday, 6 July 2007 - 10:37 pm

    The 18 month-old baby was born a Hindu and lived as a Hindu until her grandparents took custody of her. She has a Hindu name and should therefore remain a Hindu.

    Samy Vellu!! The Wira of Kaum India, where are you? Tan Sri Pandithan!! Where are you? Kayveas!! Where are you?? Nallakaruppan!!! Where are you??

    Only the DAP, a mainly Chinese party, is fighting for Indian rights!! That says alot!!!

  25. #25 by Jong on Friday, 6 July 2007 - 11:43 pm

    I repeat, this is sick!
    These clowns have made Islam into such a hated religion with their man-made laws to suit their convenience which has further confused the people.

    The Sultans and Raja-Rajas together the BN Government must meet and put a stop to all these nonsence before this country goes the taliban way.

    Right now it’s already gone out of hand and we are the laughing stock of the world! Is this what the Islam preaches? Come on, we need to see beyond race and religion.

  26. #26 by Utopia on Saturday, 7 July 2007 - 12:20 am


  27. #27 by dawsheng on Saturday, 7 July 2007 - 12:33 am

    Sooner or later the tragedy will strikes, someone will have to die for things to make up.

  28. #28 by Jeffrey on Saturday, 7 July 2007 - 7:23 am

    It is again the same BN wakil (BN-Jerai) who in the UMNO General assembly waved the May 13 book and warned non malays not to stir the hornet’s nest by questioning Malay rights who recently expressed concern over the tight-fitting and skin-baring outfits that Muslim artistes wore. Figure-hugging clothes, he said, did not reflect Malaysian culture. He was quoted as saying that “some of the attire seemed to be made from little material, exposing skin and were too tight.”

    Soon after Siti Noor Idayu Abdul Moin, 22, who was wearing a sleeveless top and long trousers was detained by state religious officials who raided the place in which she performed on last Tuesday Siti said that the officers wrote her a notice accusing her of dressing sexily and encouraging immorality just because she sang there.

    The religious authorities are aggressive in pushing their agenda because there are BN politicians out there playing to the gallery with race and faith issues and who for their own narrow political agenda are goading, encouraging and cheering them on.

    The problem is playing on racial and religious sentiments seem to always work in this country. It brings results either in garnering political popularity or getting the religious authorities to punish some people for infractions of so called Islamic propriety.

    On the other hand, those who preach moderation – like the Prime Minister who promotes a moderate practice of the faith by way of Islam Hadhari or the enlightened messages of the more progressive amongst the elites like Datuk Zaid Ibrahim (BN-Kota Bharu) and Raja Nazrin – find their message largely ignored as rhetoric, but a more radical and reactionary approach to race/religion as that taken by MP (BN-Jerai) seem to always work in terms of showing influence and power which will then serve as an incentive for the rest of the flock to follow example and take an increasingly reactionary approach to race and religion….

    The forces of moderation are sidelined whilst that of the radical are rewarded and growing in influence and power – that is the trend in the country akin to lighting a match in a petrol pump station, which if unchecked will eventually ignite the country in flames.

  29. #29 by RGRaj on Saturday, 7 July 2007 - 7:51 am

    Richard Teo wrote:

    *** “It is not the religion that is at fault. It is the fault of our weak leaders who have allowed the situation to regress to this stage. Go to Turkey if you have the chance and you will be surprise how Islam is practised there.Muslims and christains can inter marry without any conversion and the govt does not interfere in any religious matters. Head scarves is banned in govt buildings and the people value and protect secularism although 95% OF ITS POPULATION IS MUSLIMS. That is how islam is practised in Turkey and that is the beautiful face of Islam.” ***

    ——– ——– ——– ——–

    Oh please my dear fellow non-Muslim, take your head out of the sand! The penalty for apostasy in Islam is “death”, no less. Take a look at this sahih (authentic) hadith.

    —- —-

    Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:
    Narrated ‘Ikrima:

    Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to ‘Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn ‘Abbas who said, “If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah’s Apostle forbade it, saying, ‘Do not punish anybody with Allah’s punishment (fire).’ I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah’s Apostle, ‘Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'”

    —- —-

    Revathi should consider herself lucky. In true Islamic countries, i.e. Saudi Arabia & Pakistan, she would have been murdered already. And quoting Turkey just doesn’t cut it. It might be a Muslim majority country, but it’s still very much secular. But for your information, Christian converts (from Islam) are being persecuted there for their believes. So what are you going to say now?

    Please do not be so ignorant next time. I repeat, apostasy carries the death sentence as far as Islam is concerned. Anyone denying this, well, they’re just in denial.

  30. #30 by HJ Angus on Saturday, 7 July 2007 - 8:05 am

    “But for your information, Christian converts (from Islam) are being persecuted there for their believes. So what are you going to say now?”

    Is the persecution done by the state? ie the police or the courts?

    In most families, parents of course feel quite unhappy when children convert into another religion but that is expected.

  31. #31 by RGRaj on Saturday, 7 July 2007 - 8:30 am

    HJ Angus wrote:

    *** “Is the persecution done by the state? ie the police or the courts?

    In most families, parents of course feel quite unhappy when children convert into another religion but that is expected.” ***

    —- —- —- —-

    Yes, it’s state sanctioned persecution. But converts also risk persecution from ordinary Muslims themselves. These are some links regarding this subject matter:

    And yes, I agree with you that most parents will get upset at a conversion. But I wouldn’t even try to persecute the converts. I’ll try educating them with knowledge & logic though.

  32. #32 by Jeffrey on Saturday, 7 July 2007 - 8:50 am

    “Treason? Treason? What the fcuk is this reasoning by the Syariah Court??? asked by a commenter who must be forgiven being an obvious kafir (infidel or a pagan) – sorry, but that’s how you are viewed by them!

    In a nation based on sovereignty of man made laws, treason is the crime of disloyalty and being traitorious and treacheous to one’s nation as shown by causing harm or death to the Sovereign, the Prime Minister, levying war and conspiring with the nation’s enemies to levy war against one’s own country.

    The gravity of such an offence is deermed so great that in many a so called developed and modern countries, the punishment is life imprisonment whilst for others more traditional, it is death.

    Scottish rebel, Sir William Wallace, featured in Mel Gibson’s “Brave Heart” was, as depicted in the film, tortured, quartered and had his heads and limbs displayed on poles in different parts of England as a deterrent against committing treason against the English King.
    Apostasy or irtidãd too in Islam (esp the Shia sect) is equal to treason.

    In an Islamic state, the sovereignty of laws is not derived from men’s deliberations and reasoning but God’s. It is His kingdom. To apostate is to renunciate and turn your back against the Sovereign, the Almighty Himself. It is to incite rebellion within His Kingdom.

    Of course there are controversies (depending on which verse one selects from the holy references) on how to treat an apostate.

    Take this one : “ They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper” [ Q 4:89]

    In Islamic jurisprudence, no murtad (apostate ) is allowed to exit from the faith.

    Islam is a religion of peace, tolerance and kindness is viewed in the context only of the apostate being allowed rehabilitation ie in the sense of recanting his apostasy, repenting his intransigence against God and reverting into the fold of Islam. If the ‘murtad’ is still“recalcitrant” (the famous word Paul Keating used on Dr Mahathir) then the punishment is death, imprisonment and exile.

    Some of you may cynically call this a checking into Hotel California (the Eagles’ famous song) but consider this – was William Wallace allowed to repent and spared punishment if he reaffirmed allegiance to the English King ?

    Yes he would be spared his life but he would still be imprisoned in the Tower of London for the rest of his natural life.

    In comparison the treatment meted to the apostate who recant, rehabilitate and return to the fold is certainly more merciful and compassionate in an Islamic state. He will not have to go to prison after a short stint in the rehabilitation and re-educational centre.

    Even in ancient religious societies there’s always leeway for those deviants from majority faith to be rehabilitated or at least spared certain death.

    For examples, in Greece Socrates would be spared if he renounced his teaching methods but he didn’t. Roman Governor (Pontius Pilate) enforcing the laws of the realm of the Jewish clergy would be all too glad to spare Jesus from punishment of death had he agreed to recant and renounce his teachings about the Kingdom of Heaven of which he was son of God – but again Jesus like William Wallace and Socrates didn’t!

    Well if you are “modern” and believe like what 3rd American president Thomas Jefferson said about happiness being an inalienable right of man, a necessary condition of which is the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion, then if you are living in a religious society, prepare to be punished and die for such beliefs.

    But don’t be too happy living under jurisprudence of a modern state like UK and US when you commit ‘treason’ of selling defence secrets to the nations enemies. When caught and convicted, you can recant and express regret and vow to return to the fold of good citizenry, but when it comes to punishment the judge will still sentence you to long imprisonment term in their Hotel California there.

    But not so in an Islamic State. Marimuthu’s wife, Raimah Bibi Noordin, who was like an apostate committing “treason” in Islamic state was not further harassed when she returned to the Muslim fold after “rehabilitation” and religious counseling. That is why the Religion is viewed and held merciful and compassionate in contrast to secular jurisprudence.

  33. #33 by undergrad2 on Saturday, 7 July 2007 - 9:59 am

    According to many Islam is a political ideology with religious underpinnings. If that is the case should we be surprised??

  34. #34 by uyatnej on Saturday, 7 July 2007 - 10:21 am

    Why is this religion creating so much inconvenience and problem to everyone (believers and non-believers)? – SocratesPlato

    I believe Islam is a beautiful and fair religion, Islam does not cause problem to believers and unbelievers, only the Umno people, NEP U graduates who have no job then joint the Syariah court and state and religious department are the one who cause all this problems.
    Just Imagine, and officer from state religious department with a qualification of SPM Grade 3, enrol into University to do Islamic study with our tax money (duit haram)!!!! Any mat rempit can also be religious officer, so just imagine how good is their mentality and capability???? If this department didn’t hire them, then who would?

  35. #35 by madmix on Saturday, 7 July 2007 - 10:27 am

    The message is clear: you cannot leave Islam. If you do and want to lead a normal life, you have to leave the country as it is a treacherous act, not only to religion but to country!

  36. #36 by JusticeII on Saturday, 7 July 2007 - 10:59 am

    In Pakistan, non Muslim female can marry a Muslim male without converting but their children must be Muslims. But a Muslim female cant marry a non-Muslim male as their children will then be viewed as non-Muslims. There are many non-Muslims in Pakistan, and church-goers filled the churches during Easter and Xmas.

    Yes, the women in Pakistan must dress decently, but they are not like those fanatics tudung-wearers in Msia. They use a selendang to cover their hair and it is elegant how they wear them.

    There are not many pubs or alcoholic joints in Pakistan, but mind you, the waiters, waitresses and baritas can be Muslims and non-Muslims.

    If Islamic countries like Pakistan and Turkey can tolerate inter-religion marriages and ban headscarves in the government, I am unable to comprehend where the Islamic authorities in Msia derive their so-called powers and interpretation of the religion from.

    And oh, our Datin Jeanne doesnt wear headscarves, can she be labelled as un-holy?

  37. #37 by jigsawpuzzle on Saturday, 7 July 2007 - 11:56 am

    Why do blind followers make Islam unattractive? There are so many advantages for a non muslim to become a muslim in Malaysia but many choose not to. Doesnt that say something?

  38. #38 by Plaintruth on Saturday, 7 July 2007 - 12:35 pm

    The grip is tighter as years gone by…. can’t you see…. the signs are everywhere … if you have not forgotten the past similar events happened in Malaysia…. that all these actions is going toward turning Malaysia into an Islamic State.

    The other 40% of the populations who are non-muslim must exercise their rights under the constitution….. fight for your right …. challenge it in court….. we are civilized.

  39. #39 by RGRaj on Saturday, 7 July 2007 - 2:22 pm

    Only a cult forces it’s members to remain in the fold. If a religion is so beautiful & peaceful, then the followers will remain due to love & devotion. You would not need compulsion to make sure they stay.

    The fact that Islam uses compulsion to prevent a Muslim from leaving the ummah speaks much for it’s claim as the “religion of peace.”

  40. #40 by Joetan on Saturday, 7 July 2007 - 3:39 pm

    All the happening for the past days really put fear into the heart of the non-muslims on the religion called ISLAM. We the non-muslims really thanks God to be borned a non-muslim. The enforcers instead of show to the world how peaceful and good the religion called ISLAM is , they show to the world how destructive the religion tearing a family apart , curbing the freedom of human being and etc etc. Their actions is the opposite of what our leader like Abdullah Badawi preached. Our Leader constantly said ISLAM is a peaceful religion but who on earth beside muslims will believe him?

  41. #41 by shortie kiasu on Saturday, 7 July 2007 - 4:37 pm

    Look at the domestic as well as foreign scenes that certain religion had created, corpse wrangling, wives and children grapping etc…; violent killing of others, all blame on others for their own followers misgiving.

    All is wrong except the followers of that religion. It can issue death order against some souls thousands of miles away, who has no connection whatsoever with the followers of the religion!

    It is hell rather tha heaven.

  42. #42 by k1980 on Saturday, 7 July 2007 - 7:31 pm

    When the Ialamabad Red Mosque fracas (26 deaths so far) repeats itself in this country, the govt will have no one to blame but itself for promoting religious extremism

  43. #43 by anand on Sunday, 8 July 2007 - 7:34 am

    Uncle Kit ..
    Why you had blackout my post about the [deleted] religion.
    Am I wrong ?????????????????????????????

  44. #44 by Jong on Sunday, 8 July 2007 - 10:29 am

    I tend to agree with what k1980 just said.

    Yes, it’s a matter of time before this country get into the same situation as in the Islamabad Red Mosque fracas, if things are left unchecked.

    Religious extremism here in Malaysia is definitely on the rise and eerily troubling.

  45. #45 by Billy on Sunday, 8 July 2007 - 10:19 pm

    You know, with all the postings above which have highlighting death and killing in Islam, then someone must be correct in saying that Islam is a violent religion. When God gave the Ten Commandments to Moses, one of them clearly read “Thou shalt no kill” period, and yet Muslims believe otherwise in this so-called compassionate and peace-loving religion and went on to justify their wanton actions. If the person is bad, it is not for us to judge for ye be judged. Let God take care of the sinner, but while on earth we God-fearing people should live the best we can to serve Him and our fellow beings, not kill them. The Buddhist religion preaches understanding and peace in order to attain Nirvana and the Bible preaches LOVE which can be found in almost all the books written by the Disciples. I do not know much about the Hindu religion but in all goodness, I believe it also preaches love, compassion, fellowship and understanding. I guess that makes Islam pretty unique, doesn’t it? There is a news article in “The-Malaysian” website which reported on some Islamic militants forcing Christian clerics to convert to Islam or they will shoot them dead. One of the clerics has already been shot recently. So is there no compulsion in Islam????? Please visit

  46. #46 by Angry_Malaysian on Sunday, 8 July 2007 - 11:33 pm

    Hi malaysians,

    There is one solution, let us change all our names to ALI BABA…..Why? Coz its all about forms without substance…..this is what I think those fanatics think about their religion….

  47. #47 by RGRaj on Monday, 9 July 2007 - 7:52 am

    Billy wrote:

    *** You know, with all the postings above which have highlighting death and killing in Islam, then someone must be correct in saying that Islam is a violent religion. ***

    —- —- —- —- —- —-

    Billy, do you belong to the “People of the Book” (Christian/Jew)? This is what “the religion of peace” has in store for you. I’m afraid you’re not going to like it one bit.

    —- —- —- —-

    al-Quran 9:29

    Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

    —- —- —- —-

    But if you’re a Pagan like me (Hindu/Buddhist), well, our situation could be much more sad. This is what the “religion of peace” has prescribed for people like us.

    —- —- —- —-

    al-Quran 9:5

    But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

    —- —- —- —-

    Every non-Muslims must get a copy of the al-Quran & read it. And also don’t forget to visit, a great website by ex-Muslims spilling the beans about the “religion of peace”.

  48. #48 by sotong on Monday, 9 July 2007 - 8:31 am

    If you are selective in interpreting the holy books and not fully understand the circumtances at that time and its relevancy to the present, it could be a destructive and violent source of reference.

  49. #49 by ProMalaysiaNotBN on Monday, 9 July 2007 - 9:32 am

    This is really a classic case of the “fault of the system becoming the burden of the individual.” It is little wonder that Islam is looked upon as a religion with a lot of suspicion towards its practice that is fraught wth all the idiosyncracy of man and not of the Almighty. Such simplistic propagation of the way of life under Islam with draconian punishment on the wayward followers really adds insult to injury to the religion itself, I’m sure.

    And to have a ruling made as in the case of Revathi is another of the way things seem to be moving for the state of the religion in Malaysia. The Syariah court reigns supreme over the constitution and civil law in the country. Little wonder that an act of renouncing Islam is now considered “treacherous”. Islam, to those who want to make capital out of it, in Malaysia equals Country and Government. What cockamammy!

    With due respect to Islam, its followers are not doing justice to its teachings. And that leads to the question of are these followers true followers of the faith and religion? Or more alarmingly, are they really for political capital? By such actions and activities taken of late, Islam is being subjected to a kind of bashing that does not warrant its true callings. As one of the comments givers said, this stems from an insecurity from the lack of conviction towards and strength in the faith by the so-called followers. The religion is practised by strong-armed tactics and bullying rather than by the willing and accepting minds – in true form of the belief – and the practice is therefore reprehensible. Who in his right mind would want to follow a practice that is made on earth and not in heaven!

  50. #50 by negarawan on Monday, 9 July 2007 - 9:46 am

    International exposure and pressure must be stepped up on the religious and racial discrimination by the UMNO government of Malaysia. I hope and pray that this religious and racial discrimination will be stopped, just like apartheid in South Africa. The recent remarks by the EU ambassador is a step in the right direction. Much more needs to be done to stop this inhumane policies and practices by the UMNO government in Malaysia. Syabas to DAP for its undying efforts to champion these issues. I wonder why the MIC who is supposed to defend the rights on Indians in Malaysia has not done and said anything about Revathi’s case and many others?? This clearly shows that MIC, and MCA, are mere puppets of UMNO. Vote wisely in the coming GE for a better future.

  51. #51 by sotong on Monday, 9 July 2007 - 10:28 am

    It all about power and wealth by hook or by crook……..religion, race and other issues are excuses!

  52. #52 by grace on Monday, 9 July 2007 - 10:31 am

    When I was in China, I happened to just ask for the price of a piece of cheap set of tea pot. Afger I examine the quality of the pot, I decided not to buy and walked out of the shop. The owner refused to let me go out and threated to beat me up. Thus I was forced to buy the good. Upon reaching the otel, I gave away to the chambemaid.

    On the other hand, back in Malaysia, I went into a shop selling Levi Jeans. Tried a few pairs and not to my satisfaction, I went out witout buying any. No one stopped or force me to buy. Why? Because Levi is a popular and high quality product. It does not fear losing any customer. For any one customer who rejected the jean, there would be thousand clamouring to own one.

    Similarly, if a religion is a true one, it must not fear any one walking out of it. Being a Christian, our church does not stop any one leaving us. Because we know that there are thousand more who would want to joing us!!! We know that we have the truth.

  53. #53 by maya on Monday, 9 July 2007 - 11:20 am

    Dear Uncle Lim,
    Just wanted to share this story with you and the rest of the gang.
    Long long ago in a holy city in India there lived a priest. He was a very religious man and a very orthodox brahmin who apparently spent his days chanting mantra and performing poojas. Across his house, there lived a commercial sex worker, Radha, who went about her chores entertaining the men who visited her home. Now, our priest, sitting on his verandah, will be seething in anger at the immoral and sinful activities going on, feeling very indignant at the decay of ethics etc etc etc.Years went by and on one faithful day, they both died and arrived at the gates of heaven where it was to be decided where the souls should go. To his horror, the priest was sent to Hell and Radha was allowed into heaven. Our Priest, with all the pent up emotions, ranted and raved against this ” i dedicated my life to your service, Lord, whereas she sold her body for money! What kind of judgement is this??”
    The Lord then replied ” Your mouth spoke mantras in my name but your heart, mind and soul was lusting over this young woman whereas she sold her body for a living but her mind, soul and heart was always longing to be like you, so that she can be off service to ME”
    The priest in this story reminds me of the MPs, and the religious officers who are running amok in our country now. Pity them, they are at such a low level of spirituality that they are eons away from making any connection to the Supreme Being. They have allowed their perception of religion to cloud everything they see.
    The scary part is that nothing is being done to stop this mass delusion!
    To Revathi, God bless you sister, and protect you too!

  54. #54 by RGRaj on Monday, 9 July 2007 - 1:00 pm

    sotong wrote:

    *** If you are selective in interpreting the holy books and not fully understand the circumtances at that time and its relevancy to the present, it could be a destructive and violent source of reference. ***

    —- —- —- —- —- —-

    Oh, I tell you that those verses I quoted are very much relevent for all time, place & circumstances. Islam @ the “religion of peace” is perpetually at war with the infidels. Islam has separated the world into darul Islam (house of Islam) & darul Harb (house of war).

    So the Quranic verses are supposed to be Allah’s own words. As such, verses 9:5 & 9:29 are still applicable in this modern times, as much as it was more than 1400 years ago in Arabia.

    The reason these Quranic laws are NOT applied to us non-Muslims in all Islamic countries is because the Islamic caliphate has NOT been reestablished yet.

    And yet even you (a Muslim) admit that these verses are very destructive & violent. It’s these verses (ayats) that give inspiration to jihadists, alongside other verses & hadiths.

    I wonder how a “religion of peace” can actually look upon such verses for inspiration & still call itself the “religion of peace”.

  55. #55 by sotong on Monday, 9 July 2007 - 1:57 pm

    The Jews, Christains, Muslims came from the same book….verses encouraging violent behaviors could be found in the book.

  56. #56 by good coolie on Monday, 9 July 2007 - 2:59 pm

    Sotong, Sotong! What do you expect from books that record early history of peoples? “An eye for an eye” was a common rule in those days. Take Jewish,Christian, and Muslim holy books as a whole, and adapt them for modern living. Don’t let the extremists in any religion dictate the day.

  57. #57 by somethingStirring on Monday, 9 July 2007 - 3:16 pm

    To the religious fanatics, how would you feel if i lock you up, feed you with pork etc etc? Suppose you hold fast to your belief? Same thing here.

    has the religion substituted your conscience with masochistic urges?

    the sight of our PM touting islam hadhari in russia while this happens undeterred in his own country fills me with disgust. He fits the description of a hypocrite quite nicely.

  58. #58 by Toyol on Monday, 9 July 2007 - 3:39 pm

    All is lost. The powers to be hide behind religion like some sort of safehouse. They use religion to protect their own selfish interest, pursue their ambitions, suppress their enemies, suppress their own kind and above all deny all non-Muslims their fundamental right under the Constitution. No wonder we lag behind our neighbours!

  59. #59 by slashed on Monday, 9 July 2007 - 4:56 pm

    Noone here should judge Islam or any religion for that matter without first being fully informed. By ‘fully informed’ I mean one who can properly say he understands the ‘correct’ (emphasis on this word) interpretation of Islam – and as there is none in the world but God – no man should speak of it as if he knows everything.

    Truly the fact that there are many types of muslims – moderates, extremists, religious etc – as there are many denominations in that religion we can already presume that there is no humanly correct way of understanding what the texts truly mean for if we can know what the words truly mean, the existence of multiple schools of thought is illogical. It is Man, not religion, nor words, that kill; It is Man that ‘interprets’ and ‘understand’, not religion nor words; As such the problem with religion is the Man who Thinks he Knows.

    Therefore, the correct direction to point the finger is at the people behind the ideas (and indeed it is ‘ideas’ for unless we are God, may we presume to know the Truth?). But there you see, even by pointing at them, I have presumed to judge them as wrong.

    The problem with this country is that religion has been infused into our system of governance. A clear separation of ‘Church’ and State is fundamental for the preservation of peace, justice and tolerance. For who can the ppl turn to but the State in times of trouble? But if that State pledges allegiance to one side, who then? When religion is the justification for Law, then any interpretation of the Law is flawed for the reasons I have mentioned above.


    Anyway, my two cents on the apostate issue is that the civil courts/parliament should take this jurisdiction away from the syariah courts. It is illogical, unconstitutional, as well as unconscionable that a group gets to decide whether or not a member may leave it. While it may dictate the terms of its entry, it should not be left to decide how one may leave it. It’s like a bad Chinese Triad movie.

  60. #60 by devilmaster on Tuesday, 10 July 2007 - 12:41 pm

    Pak Helah just said “anyone could leave Islam as he/she wishes”, or was he just lying again??

  61. #61 by Joetan on Tuesday, 10 July 2007 - 1:15 pm

    The enforcers must realise that by not allowing the followers of a religion to leave the religion is like making the followers a prisoners of that religion. I might say The enforcer has successfully projected the religion into that.

  62. #62 by i_love_malaysia on Tuesday, 10 July 2007 - 1:51 pm

    Real gold can withstand the test of fire. Real faith can withstand the test of trials. Real faith dont force people to trust & obey!! Unless it is not!!

  63. #63 by BraveHeart14 on Tuesday, 10 July 2007 - 3:10 pm

    Upon birth, all men and women are of one race, one religion, one language.
    The Human race, blessed to live humanly religion and to speak the language of love and compassion.

    Only after that are they seperated, divided, scattered and made to difference each other.

    Other races come into the picture, other religion and other languages.

    The objective of the secondary religion, races and languages are to only improvise, not to contracdict the fundamental value of humanity.

    Is something that seperates a healthy, sensible and caring mother from her infant called religion?
    Is something that forces people to eat what they have learned to respect called religion?

  64. #64 by AnakTiriMalaysia on Tuesday, 10 July 2007 - 9:06 pm

    It is clearly breach of basic human rights!

    This religion- ISxxM is synonym with TERRORISME

  65. #65 by greatstuff on Thursday, 12 July 2007 - 6:09 pm

    The Syariah Courts in Malaysia have become inhabited by beings so out of touch with reality and mental evolution that Charles Darwin would have studied them with great interest- for they are a species unto themselves! How come they became so powerful in Malaysia that they are now managing to hold back the country’s progress and maturity?

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