A Fatwa Against Yoga? And How Would This Reflect on Muslims?

By Farish A. Noor

Since I became an activist at the age of nineteen, I have spent more than two decades of my life defending Muslims and the image of Islam. During my twenty-two years of living in Europe, I must have attended hundreds of conferences, seminars, public debates and lectures where I tried my best to dissuade people from the negative image of Islam that is so prevalent in the international media of late.

But there were moments when it seemed as if this was an uphill struggle where every battle won was soon followed by a string of defeats, thanks to the actions of Muslims who took it upon themselves to ‘defend Islam’ on their own parochial and short-sighted terms; and whose actions and words did untold damage to the image of Muslims. I recall one particularly bitter episode when I was asked to speak about the universalism of Islam – that took place just when the Taliban were occupied with the task of blowing up the Buddha statues of Bamiyan in Afghanistan. It seemed pointless to continue then, and despair has been my lot for the past few years.

Now I find myself again in such a situation, after it was announced that the Fatwa Council of Malaysia has just issued a fatwa declaring that the practice of Yoga is haram and thus forbidden to Muslims. Overnight I was bombarded by emails and sms-es from my Islamist friends in Indonesia where I teach at two Islamic universities, who asked: “What is wrong with you Malaysian Muslims, and haven’t you got anything better to do?” How do I reply to such a question when I am forced to ask it myself?

That the Malaysian Fatwa Council could even contemplate issuing a fatwa on Yoga of all things beggars belief. It leaves many Muslims and non-Muslims alike stunned and speechless for it would suggest that the state of normative religiosity in Malaysia has sunk to such a shallow and superficial level that only the most mundane issues are deemed worthy enough to gain the attention of the country’s ‘defenders of the faith’.

There are three issues that I would like to raise at this point, and they are the following:

Firstly it should be noted that for millions of people around the world who may be Hindus or non-Hindus, Yoga is seen primarily as a form of exercise and little else. In Europe where Yoga has been popular since the 1960s, millions of Europeans have been practicing Yoga in their spare time as a hobby or part of their health regimes, with scant attention to its religious and spiritual connotations. If it were indeed the case that Yoga forms an intrinsic part of Hindu belief and that it can be used as a means to convert non-Hindus to Hinduism, then there ought to be millions of Hindus all over Western Europe by today! So where on earth are these closet European Hindus then? Has anyone considered this commonsensical point with any degree of reflection or honesty? If Yoga is seen as merely a regime of exercise, then how on earth does sitting cross-legged miraculously transform me into a Hindu? It would be akin to suggesting that continual consumption of curry would eventually make me an Indian; and I hope we can all see how patently ridiculous that is.

Secondly, let us be clear about what thing: Yoga practices have been part of Southeast Asian culture for more than four thousand years and they are as much a part of Asian society as many of the other cultural legacies left by the period of ancient Indianisation. Another practice that has become normalised and localised over the past four millennia is the practice of massage, which is hugely popular in predominantly-Muslim Malaysia and Indonesia as it is in Thailand, Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia. Look at the relief carvings on the temples of Prambanan and Borobudur and it will be seen that massage was prevalent during the Hindu-Buddhist period and the detailed carvings show that what Malay-Muslims call ‘urut’ or ‘picit’ (pressure-point massage) was practiced as far back as the Sanjaya and Sailendra dynasties. Today picit and urut are still popular among Malaysian and Indonesian Muslims, and is practiced by Muslims. Has this ancient form of therapy transformed us into Hindus too? Certainly not, so why the fuss over Yoga?

Thirdly, the declaration that Yoga is haram has robbed Malaysia and Malaysians of yet another neutral civic space where Malaysians of all walks of life can meet and interact as Malaysians and friends. As someone who has been practicing Yoga since the age of nineteen, I can say for certain that many of the Yoga classes I have attended were plural, cosmopolitan gatherings where Malaysians of all ethnic and cultural backgrounds can meet and form lasting friendships and acquaintances. To declare this practice haram for Muslims effectively robs us of another space where we can meet other people, constraining our personal freedoms and limiting the choices in our lives.

Muslims in Malaysia are more closely guarded and policed than ever before, with more and more laws, rules and restrictions on how we dress, eat, speak, interact and even marry and form relationships with. After this fatwa on Yoga, what will be next? A fatwa on karate, kung-fu, pilates, Qi Jong?

At the root of the matter is the fact that the Malaysian Fatwa Council has acted unilaterally once again and unilaterally issued a blanket prohibition in the name of Islam and all Muslims. Well, I did not vote or elect any of the members of this council; and neither did any other Muslims in the country. Here lies the real problematic of power behind such appointed bodies that have been given so much power and authority over our lives. Lest it be forgotten, the only body that is allowed to legislate on our behalf as Malaysian citizens is the Parliament, that was elected by the citizenry themselves. Yet over the past three decades of an Islamisation process that has gone out of control, more and more non-elected and non-democratic bodies have been created that wield enormous power over the lives of Malaysians, particularly Muslims.

What has aroused the angry reaction of Malaysian Muslims in the case of this fatwa is the fact that it was issued unilaterally without any consultation with society. And this reflects the extent to which the Fatwa council is in fact a body that is not answerable to the Malaysian public. More so than a question of theology or theocratic details and fine-print, the workings of the Fatwa Council in Malaysia has demonstrated the workings of a state that has abdicated its responsibility to lead the way towards a modern, progressive Islam that is relevant to the plural and multicultural world we live in today. Yet ironically all this is happening under the watch of Prime Minister Abdullah Badawi, who made it his project to promote an ‘Islam Hadari’ that is modern and tolerant. How, pray tell, can there be a tolerant, moderate and modern Islam when books are banned on a monthly basis and Muslims are not even allowed to exercise and meditate in peace? And once again, it is the image of Islam that has suffered the most.

  1. #1 by 7even Sins on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 1:12 am

    I found it the Malaysia ruling politicians & fatwa council are a bunch nincompoops. True enough, nothing better to do..!!!

    It is so hilarious to learn all this circus stunts but they don’t deserve clapping hands though. Now the pm said assured Muslims on Wednesday they can perform yoga if they do not chant religious mantras. So what are these Yoga goers gonna say next during the exercise??? …..Kacang Puteh, Duku Langsat, Asam Laksa, Sitoberrryy, lenggang-lenggang kangkung…..!!!

    These nincompoops have put our country in total embarrassment state in the eye of the world.

  2. #2 by kcb on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 1:21 am

    I believe gambling is haram in Islam?
    What about the taxes paid by companies that are involved in gaming business?
    Are such tax proceeds haram too?
    Any one?
    It would be interesting to hear from the Fatwa Council.

  3. #3 by HJ Angus on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 1:24 am

    “Muslims in Malaysia are more closely guarded and policed than ever before, with more and more laws, rules and restrictions on how we dress, eat, speak, interact and even marry and form relationships with.”

    This is a case where the politicians are using religious means to create a society that can be brainwashed into keeping them in power for decades.
    The irony is that most of the funds to coerce the Muslims are collected from non-Muslims who are also affected by religious rulings; especially in undiscovered conversions until death of close relatives.
    Luckily we do have more enlightened Muslims like Farish and SiS.

  4. #4 by AhPek on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 1:59 am

    ‘Luckily we do have more enlightened Muslims like Farish and SiS.’. HJ Angus.

    But unfortunately I also happen to think that most enlightened Muslims belong to the silent majority.We don’t have enough enlightened Muslims coming out to speak out against such ridiculous issuing of fatwa on Yoga.Fanatics usually are the minority but because the silent majority did nothing fanatism will come to rule the day much like in the rise of the Nazis.

  5. #5 by BNseedell on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 3:00 am

    Farish A. Noor, I salute you for saying out loudly. You are a good Muslim who could really think wisely and talk logically. Please keep up the good work. Malaysia needs people like you.

    “Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things.” – Winston Churchill –

    There isn´t enough darkness in all the world to snuff out the light of one little candle. And that little candle is you!

  6. #6 by monsterball on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 3:01 am

    Yes….we need more Muslims scholars to say these things.
    Otherwise…those narrow minded pro UMNO Muslims may think other Malaysians of different faiths do not understand this or that..not true at all..or we are busybodies.
    We are defending Malaysia to be an open minded..country…with intelligent Muslims…to play a great part in uniting everyone as Malaysians.
    Only then….we can hope to advance to so call vision2020..where this is no more encouraged by UMNO for months. They know….it is no more possible…yet they keep making it…even more than impossible…totally unreal.
    UMNO law makers are unreliable..with unstable minds….keep focusing how to win votes…with brains shut up to unite us…keep dividing us. They are so greedy for power and stolen money.
    Are they really true Muslims?

  7. #7 by ramesh on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 3:10 am

    Quoted from JAKIM:

    The Fatwas of Religious Council in Islamic affairs which took place on 22-24, 2008 in Kota Bharu Kelantan included Yoga cases in their agenda. After carefully studied various reports and factual data, the Council unanimously agreed that this ancient India religious teachings, which involves physical and mental exercises, are Hinduism in nature known as wahdat al-wujud philosophy (oneness of existence; the realization of identity between the Self in man, Atman; and the Divine, BRAHMAN: ‘Brahman is all, and Atman is Brahman). It is prohibited (haram) for Muslims to practice it.
    The Council unanimously agreed that whatever actions or conceptions imitate the Yoga’s teachings such as to practice the asana yoga or self annihilation (nirvana) is against the Islamic faith. >>> Any physical activities which apparently not Hinduism in nature, are not included in these Fatwas. <<< Anyway, Muslims have to be fully aware in order their religious faith and practices not to be jeopardized. One has to be conscious that one of these three elements can effect Muslim’s faith:
    Believe in heart;
    Verbal confessions; and
    In view these elements contained in the teachings of yoga, Muslims are advised not to be involved into them so as their faith is not eroded.


    I just can’t understand, as a Muslim, if he really knows the true meaning of the fatwa, why should he go against it. It’s now clearly shown that all this are politically bias.

  8. #8 by delon85 on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 5:26 am

    I find it rather disagreeable when a Malay/Muslim says its none of the non-Malay’s business when a non-Malay tries to speak up against it. I’m sure this, in many opinion of the more mature society, is rather an absurd guideline. Does the shepherd think that the sheeps are not able to think on their own? If a person’s faith is strong enough, he/she will not convert even if anyone tries to pry the religion off them. I wonder when will this defenders of faith come to realised this simple fact.

  9. #9 by vsp on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 6:59 am

    With all the controversies that were created by the issuing of fatwas, it seems that it is now fertile ground for the UMNOputras to use religion to stir up their divide-and-rule agenda. After failing in their race-baiting exercises they are turning to the National Fatwa Council to unnecessarily create frictions.

    Anyone would by now has known that the National Fatwa Council had been used time and time again by the UMNOputras to extend their hegemony on the people. Regarding the issue of yoga, the practice of utilizing the efficacy of yoga for exercise and health purpose has been going on you umpteen years. Why out of the blue sky, the National Fatwa Council begin to realize that Muslim practitioners of yoga would be in danger of becoming Hindus would only boggle the mind of any rational thinking person of any religious hues. Going by the tenor of comments engendered by this latest controversy, it seems that the UMNOputras plan to divide the population is bearing fruits. Some bloggers do not distinguish in their criticism and sometimes go off tangent to tarnish each and every Muslim practices and in the process antagonize all Muslims. To those who want to shoot off their mouth, please remember you are only playing into the hands of the UMNOputras, who are now so bankrupt that they do not care if their actions insult their religion.

    What has being frowned by every religion: corruption, cruelty, murder, injustice, distortion of the truth, the UMNOputras have legitimized in Bolehland just because they think they have absolute power and they can behave like gods. Nothing can touch them. The National Fatwa Council, which by right, should be concerned with the bigger issue are being used as pawn to realize the agenda of the UMNOputra gods. They do not serve the true God but have stoop low for the worldly crumbs that the UMNOputra lords throw at them.

    In conclusion: UMNO is feeling very insecure and frighten out of it’s wits that it may lose it’s power to abuse. So it is now using religion after failing in the race-baiting department.

  10. #10 by vsp on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 7:03 am

    going on you umpteen years

    Sorry: going on for umpteen years

  11. #11 by manusia ada akal on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 9:03 am

    With these happenings, does one ever evaluate the role of religion in one life? Yes, the current happening is “man made” but the man who claim to be “defending the religion” has made a mockery of it. At the end of it, it is the man “in that power position” decision’s which affect the lives of the followers. Does the decision reflect the wisdom in making that decision?

    Makes one wonder, if the religion that one follows/practices so diligently shall actually brings goodness as in happiness and prosperity so that one can be enjoy peace from it?

    One can now easily explore these information in this digital age and make a wise decision based on one needs. Actually, everyone can think and evaluate for themselves the happenings in the world and, base on common sense, the right decision shall surface eventually.

    You make the decision that makes sense to you and, be aware that, only you shall bear the consequences that follow, be it good or bad.

  12. #12 by taiking on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 9:12 am

    “Glass. Fragile. Handle with Care.”
    Yes my dear muslim friends. That is how umno perceive you lot.
    Weak and easily broken inside and outside.
    You lot need protection.
    You fellas need fatwa’s ruling.
    Ketuanan endorsement.
    Tell umno that they are wrong.
    Show them.

  13. #13 by Thinking Two on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 9:20 am

    They should also ban :-
    – eating sushi
    – karaoke
    – feng shui
    – eating KFC
    – eating pizza
    – eating roti canai
    – stoping using computer

    Fill up and seal the well. So the frogs down there forever in the dark.

    No knowledge.
    No brain.
    No culture.

  14. #14 by ChinNA on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 9:33 am

    This is where I disagree with Farish. I am not a Muslim and I agree that yoga in its TOTAL practice does not agree with my religious convictions. This is personal choice that I have taken.

    Yoga as a form of exercise is definitely not haram. Yoga with the chanting, meditation and belief system definitely does not agree with my religious convictions.

    Anyway, whether it is haram or not, Muslims should be wise enough do decide for themselves. If they need a fatwa to decide, then that shows the shallowness of their understanding of their own religious convictions.

    Muslims must be ready in season or out of season to defend the faith they believe in.

  15. #15 by bc on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 9:34 am

    If they really want to rescure MUSLIM they should declare:

    UMNO and NEP are haram.

    THE NEP is turning the muslim to GREEDY, CORRUPTION, MENTALITY PROBLEM and now even use it as a threat to others god made human being.

    Everywhere the eyes telling you
    hey aku privilege than you.
    hey aku privilege than you.
    hey aku privilege than you.
    hey aku privilege than you.

    Make everyone become mentality problem.

    How to develop this country leh?

  16. #16 by Bigjoe on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 9:48 am

    Firstly Dr. Noor, sorry for having your book banned (i.e., lost of income), Secondly congratulation on having your book banned (i.e., now you have streets cred and a legitimate pioneer and champion!!).

    On yoga, interfering with peoples lives is how these people make their careers NOT making it better. Making other peoples lives better like helping single mothers, drug addicts, illiterate, unemployed is too hard and success is slim with little upside for them. Banning yoga, gets a lot of press and get milleage with the dummies and personal downside is protected. Conman, scam artist and lazy look for the same things…

  17. #17 by madmix on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 10:11 am

    We will eventually evolve into 2 systems of law making: The elected parliament and the edict based system run by people whose claim to power is by virtue of their alleged superiority in religious matters. The latter cannot be challenged as the layman has lesser knowledge of religion and the edicts are interpretations of the written book of a higher being which the clergy claims to be the appointed interpreters of God’s laws.
    What if the ulama decide to do a coup de tat and pass on edict that western style democracy is haram as they are based on kafir principles and that the laws of man are in conflict with the syariah?

  18. #18 by madmix on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 10:17 am

    Further: The whole episode is not about yoga or tomboys. The Council members are a lot smarter than you think. The hidden agenda is about power: they are flexing their muscle and testing the waters with trivial edicts. In future the edicts will have far more effect on the lives of the people.

  19. #19 by Mr Smith on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 10:24 am

    In Malaysia, if the Muslim is a VIP, he has immunity. I have seen a well stocked bar in a Muslim VIP’s house. I have seen VIP Muslims drinking liquor openly in hotels and clubs. Some of them have been seen misbehaving after getting drunk.
    There are still other VIPs who commit khalwat.
    Do you think the Religious Authorities will raid any of these premises and arrest them?
    It is only those in the lower strata of society who are victimized, arrested and fined.

  20. #20 by HJ Angus on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 10:34 am

    Having the book banned is likely to increase sales!

  21. #21 by AhPek on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 10:42 am

    Madmix,I find your observation and what you say about what is happening in this country pertaining to the rise of the ulamas rather interesting,and certainly from the goings-on in the country the rise of the ulamas will be fast and unstoppable if the silent majority in this country remains silent.This is the inherent danger challenging the legitimate power of the constitution.

  22. #22 by Raja Kasawari on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 10:58 am

    To understand why these people behave as they do, one has to understand the motivation behind them and that is their proclaimed religion of Islam. Look and understand the root. Good Muslims, bad Muslims, moderate Muslims are irrelevant points.


  23. #23 by lovepeace on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 11:07 am

    mr farish noor,

    you are a muslim and you are a malay but i still respect u for the thought that u have…bravo………..hope our country will have more intelectual guys like u….

  24. #24 by Cinapek on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 11:37 am

    I am a non Muslim and as far as I am concerned this fatwa thing is for Muslims to worry about.

    Except for one thing. Two former CJs had proposed merging Shariah laws with Common Law and apply them to ALL citizens. I hope this does not happen and not allowed to happen. As pointed out by Azmi Sharom, if that happens, Islamic edicts such as these fatwas by the National Fatwa council will inevitably influence the common law and non Muslims will be affected by such edicts by non elected officials.

  25. #25 by sama on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 11:42 am

    How about the Malay bersanding ceremony? The whole ceremony is based on Hindu practices and rituals. How about Fatwa it also?

  26. #26 by jus legitimum on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 11:56 am

    Mr.Smith,there are a lot of hypocrites among the muslim leaders.These hypocrites use politics and religion to achieve their selfish and individual interest against the interest of the people.By right the silent majority should speak up and be vocal to reveal the hypocrites’ hidden agenda.But then after almost 40 years of NEP and Ketuanan indoctrination,I guess the silent majority have been already so numbed intellectually and mentally that they can do anything.

  27. #27 by Mus_JB on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 12:16 pm

    A fatwa is a decree for Muslim only. There is a council consist of Muslim Cleric which are well verse in Islam that discuss relevant matters. It is the job of these people to issue fatwa/decree on all subjects and matters for Muslims.

    This is the same with the christian religion where the Pope or the relevant members of christian/catholic scholars will issue a decree on all matters whether there are align or contradict the christian religion.

    Mr. Farish here is not a Islamic scholar. I am not sure if he is an expert in Yoga as well.

    The reason of the Fatwa is that from their findings (the council) , there is an element of Hinduism in Yoga. If this is true then the council is obligated to issue a fatwa/decree to prohibit Yoga. This make perfect sense.

    If the council findings are incorrect, then somebody or someone can come forward and convince them otherwise. It is as simple as that.

    Islam is not really so strict and prohibit everything. It is just that there is an element of Faith in this issue.

    One can exercise, running, cycling, jumping up and down and so forth to maintain health.

    I will like to stress that this fatwa is only applicable to Muslim only.

  28. #28 by dawsheng on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 12:28 pm

    Stupidity and bigotry occurred when there is an excessive and irrational commitment to the rewards promised by god.

  29. #29 by AhPek on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 12:47 pm

    Like the belief indoctrinated at an impressionable at the madrasah that 72 virgins will be waiting up there if one were to die for Islam?

  30. #30 by AhPek on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 12:51 pm

    impressionable should read impressionable age

  31. #31 by cintanegara on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 12:53 pm

    Don’t beat around the bush and just focus on the core subject. I think that you guys are not exposed and living just among your own community. No wonder, this blog is visted by the same people and the average replies are arrond 30 -40 or the most 50.

    Once a while, kindly visit Negarawan Ulung, Dr M’s blog where you can witness how he is receiving warm welcome from his supporters worldwide. Average reply is hundreds. Now the hit is more than a million. That has shown how popular he is and people still admire him though he no longer our PM. No doubt he is our true hero and the great leaders in Asia.

  32. #32 by bc on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 1:11 pm

    I am a kind of unhappy where you mentioned Dr M is the great leaders in Asia.

    If he is our true hero and the great leaders in Asia, here in Malaysia will not have any corrupted government for us here to complaint.

    And here will not be any unfairness, selfishness and mentality problem about this stupid privilege protection act of greed and selfish.

    Do you have any common sense?

    God create all human equal right.

  33. #33 by shortie kiasu on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 1:14 pm

    What was written echo the perception and sentiment of may non muslim.

    Although it is none of our business, we found it strange and incomprehensible for a major religion to drive into the end of the horn whereby there are more important matters to be addressed. Not only the Indonesian muslims feel so, we non muslim also concur.

    If muslims are not allowed to drink alcoholic drinks, then the whole world are not allowed to drink alcoholic drinks too; if muslims are not allowed to eat pork, then the world are not allowed to eat pork too.

    This is the kind of impression that muslims portray to the non muslim. The world is made up of a tunnel and they only see that nuch through the tunnel. It is really sad to see this.

  34. #34 by bc on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 1:22 pm


    To you Dr M is your true hero and the great leaders in Asia.

    To Chinese, to tell the truth all this development in Malaysia is just a pieces of nut.

    If proper management we have 6-10 pieces twin-towers. Do you know that?

    Do you know how much money this Malaysia loan to develop this Malaysia in debt?

    To Chinese with proper management, this Malaysia can outrank Singapore 2-4 times in everywhere.

    With so much money in the bank for all Malaysian to share.

  35. #35 by oedipus on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 1:25 pm

    cintanegara, we cant make everyone happy all the times la. as much love and adoration Dr.M is showered upon, there many out there that is unhappy with what he has done ie corruption and money politics in this country. something he admitted having exist during his time, but did nothing about.

    i wonder if the fatwa council will issue a fatwa against terrorism and hate acts? i have yet to hear the moderate muslims’ stand on global issues like acts of terrorist (mumbai), human suffering (sudan), break down of law and order (somalia) and sheer coruption (zimbabwe).

    the worst thing a good man can do is nothing while sheer evil rules the land.

  36. #36 by OrangRojak on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 1:34 pm

    Hey! You wrote something I liked! Well done Farish, and my deepest sympathies are with you for your choice of cause. No cause is harder to champion than one that is being dragged down by people who shout louder, more offensively and in greater number than you can. Maybe it’s time you started an Islamic Protestant movement.

    As for those who say “affects Muslims only” – where do you think these Muslims live? Did you read Farish’s 3rd point? How are you going to forge ‘one nation’ if its citizens can’t mix? I imagine (I don’t know, but the scenario is not absurd) that there are Malaysians who previously practised yoga together, but one attends a mosque, the other a church or temple. The fatwa drives a wedge between these people.

    Ramesh’s contribution is a useful introduction of fact into what could otherwise be an impassioned and ignorant fight: JAKIM did try to avoid the accusation that they were ‘banning exercise’, but they have not done so nearly carefully enough. While listening out for words like ‘nirvana’ should be easy enough, how is one to decide, with one’s feet in one’s ears, whether there are elements of an alien (to one’s self) religion present or not? I feel sad for those yoga practitioners who wish to be ‘good Muslims’, I suspect they will stop going to yoga classes just in case they are going to unwittingly contravene the fatwa.

    I personally have nothing against people’s choice of superstitious belief. It’s a fascinating subject. I have attended synagogues, kingdom halls, churches of many denominations, burnt incense at the feet of very attractive statues and even danced around stone circles wearing nothing but body paint and antlers. I have many friends and relatives who continue to do (usually just one of) these things. I have no friends who insist that another person worship according to a set of rules, or they’re ‘not really worshipping’. These people don’t deserve friends, they deserve isolation. I fear it is those good, honest, otherwise perfect neighbours who only wish to ‘do the right thing’ who will end up being isolated by this incomprehensible directive.

    ROFLMAO: ReCaptcha “Pulka worshippers”

  37. #37 by frankyapp on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 1:37 pm

    Wow! Farish A. Noor,you are great man.You are an ideal muslim.I really apreciate what you said. What about money stenched with boar’s blood ? Is that okay or haram ? What about bellydancing and Syn swimming ? Yeah buddist and yen meditation,even qigong,all these will be haram too,right.We have a medical malay doctor who is a capable and famous qigong sifu or master,I wonder what he has to say?.What is the purpose or intention of the FATWA to declare it only now when all these things/execises have been practising peacefully for hundreds or thousands of years ?. These guys must be crazy,right?.

  38. #38 by TheWrathOfGrapes on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 1:44 pm

    /// cintanegara Says:
    Once a while, kindly visit Negarawan Ulung, Dr M’s blog where you can witness how he is receiving warm welcome from his supporters worldwide. ///

    cintanegara, you mean such worldwide acclaim as:

    By ziema on November 17, 2008 10:20 AM
    Salam TUN,
    Hopefully I am the first

    By hoimail on November 11, 2008 7:34 PM
    yess…gua first.. tahniah tun..zaid ibrahim adalah contoh salah

    By cahaya_perlindungan on November 11, 2008 7:44 PM
    yeay! I’m the first to comment!

    By umno selamanya on November 6, 2008 6:06 PM
    Yes, I am numero uno this time ….

    By azfarnazmi on November 6, 2008 3:05 PM
    i’m the 1st?hahahahhahah

    By Alibabamahathir on November 11, 2008 8:43 AM
    you lied. You quoted Tun Siew Sin out of context.

    By anakjati on November 19, 2008 4:10 PM
    This is truly an excellent piece. Dead center.

    By sadder star on November 19, 2008 4:29 PM
    i agree 100%ly !

    By CheDetFC on November 17, 2008 9:33 AM
    Good Morning Tun,

    By Wak Nal on November 17, 2008 9:46 AM
    Agree with your statement.

  39. #39 by Saint on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 1:45 pm

    Most of them have got it wrong. Practicing Yoga does give one a universal view of religion. It moves one from religion to spirituality. This is reason Hindus (including Buddhist, Jains ect) do not go into conversion. In a way the Fatwah was correct. They do not want liberal thinking Muslim as this will erode many of the techings found in Islam.

    Muslims may not convert, but internally they will not agrre to many teachings of orthodox Islam. Unknowingly, Farish A. Noor himself is a victim.

    To may Muslims, condemning the breaking of the Buddhist statues will be regarded as “haram” and many Muslims dare not go against it, but Farish Noor is bravely writting about it. This what yoga does to an individual, silentely.

  40. #40 by monsterball on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 2:09 pm

    First and foremost…it needs a faceless…nameless cintanegara…who actually cinta UMNO and carry Mahathir’s nuts……with no knowledge on bloggers technology.
    Mahathir many have a thousand visitor per hour…and lots of commentators..but that have ben proven……unreliable informations.
    He has a reputation…to twist and turn…like a snake with excellent cunning ideas and command of English….excellent.
    Those are the main reasons….people visit his blog….not because they love or respect him….but curious to read……how a snake write.
    Did you ever read any welknown overseas leaders….defending him?
    Those 300+ commentators…how do you know…they are not from few …changing nick all the time…program to make one click…represents a hundred clicks…to make him look popular?
    He is so rich…he can employ a handful of staffs….just to do that.
    He is crazy to keep promoting himself as clean and almighty….so he must be the most popular…at all cost.
    He is famous to accused others on briberies and corruptions….manipulations..when he is first and the best at these games… bribed himself to be the dictator for 22 years.
    Jeff Ooi told me hits and visitors record are unreliable in blogging…and here comes an idiot…no knowledge …..but blare out…like a fool.
    But then…the quality of UMNO active members are mostly half past sixes. Cintanegara is a fine example.
    That idiot is comparing Malaysia with Sudan…Somalia….Zimbabwe!!
    That is a gone case man.

  41. #41 by AhPek on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 2:14 pm

    If you say that since Farish Noor is not an Islamic scholar, his writing on this particular fatwa on Yoga cannot be scholarly I’ll then have to ask you how come you think the fatwa on some dressing that these clerical scholars think will lead to tomboyism which in turn will lead to lesbianism.What is so scholarly about the connection between dressing and lesbianism? As a matter of fact there is also word that we have a lesbian in the malaysian cabinet.
    Then again what about the destruction of the 2 Buddhah statues of Bumiyan in Afghanistan by blowing them up to smithereens just like Altantuya?These are priceless jewels of human civilisations the ‘scholarly’ clerics of Afghanistan have placed a fatwa on.Scholarly?? Would you say that?

  42. #42 by alikim on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 2:34 pm

    Anything threatens unmo’s future is haram.

  43. #43 by trublumsian on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 2:37 pm

    dillhole cintanegara, who r the million visitors to dr m’s blog? yes, they’re the same halfwits like your kind, who blindly worships the evil, scheming, backstabbing, bloodsucking, racist you call a hero. go there, don’t come here. if u can’t see the damage he’s done to the country, u don’t deserve to be called cintanegara.

  44. #44 by AhPek on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 2:38 pm

    It’s barbaric, Mus_JB!!

  45. #45 by isahbiazhar on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 2:39 pm

    Do not blame the Fatwa on Islam.Islam never allowed such ruling unless guided by the Quran and to a certain extent the Hadith.Arabs found their way to India and realised how great Indian civilization was.They brought the idea of Sufism which was the basic solace of the Hindus.Till today Sufis are not recognised by many Muslims but no one dared to pass a Fatwa.Malaysian non scholarly Muslims have done a great damage to true(tulen) Muslims in this country by passing fatwas which are questioned by the rulers themselves.Indonesia is going to study the ruling and if they come out against the idea it will reflect poorly on us like the date of Puasa.Muslims are never united and we will see more disunity in the21st century as Islam has many unsolved,set aside issues.We need another scholar of stature like Imam Ghazali to appear on this earth.The Iman of Islam Hadhari cannot find even the event which will lead to a solution.Meanwhile stick to the evergreen Quran.

  46. #46 by trublumsian on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 2:48 pm

    here they go again, jumping the gun without fully vetting the issue n consequences n make a complete fool of themselves, and sadly, of malaysia. now they’re saying the decree is put on hold pending further review, n then it’ll just go away.

  47. #47 by madmix on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 2:54 pm

    Organised religion is about submission to the teachings espoused by the clerical class. The earliest form of governments were based on religion. The Pharaohs controlled their subjects through religion. They were god-kings and their priest were their ministers wielding great power. The Incas priests can sway their subjects to offer human sacrifice.
    The priest class is making a come-back and people are allowing themselves to be herded like sheep. Human sacrifice has returned as can be seen in Mumbai. Some priests are calling for blood and they are given blood.
    Trivial matters like yoga and tomboys are just the beginning of more serious things to come. beware.

  48. #48 by AhPek on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 2:59 pm

    I can instantly sense that you are a man of God for what you write reveals immediately your soul.We need a lot of you in Malaysia for this country to heal.

  49. #49 by cintanegara on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 3:14 pm

    As you all are fully aware, Malays never question what other religions believe and practice but you guys keep on debating this openly and publicly over the web. Who is the real racist?

    DAP wouldn’t get any benefit out of this and coming next election, the majority would teach them a lesson. Dr M is right to say that DAP huge win in the last GE was not because they were strong. Next GE will provde that our Negarawan Ulung is absolutely right.

  50. #50 by Mus_JB on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 3:30 pm

    Ah Pek,

    I am not accusing MR. Farish Noor not an islamic scholar. Well, the fact of the matter is that he is not. He is a muslim, but not a Islamic scholar.

    About the Afghanistan matter, that was done by the Taliban, we in Malaysia are not the Taliban.

    For your info the Taliban is from the Wahabi fraction of Islam which started in the 18th century. We in Malaysia are from the syafie Islam which is older, about 1000 years ago. The Taliban have done a lot of blowing up buildings but the middle east is a very complex matter.

    About the place of worship, in Islam (syafie) that is practice in Malaysia, it is forbidden for a muslim to destroy places of worship of other religions. You can ask this yourself to Islamic authority in Malaysia.

    If you talk about barbaric, I can point up a lot of barbaric things done by Mao Tze Tung.

    The point of the matter is that the world is a complicated place, one should not make a conclusion before understanding the matter thoroughly.

  51. #51 by malaysia-united on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 3:41 pm


    1. This article was wrote by Farid A. Noor which I believe he is a Muslim.

    2. “Malays never question what other religions believe and practice” But BN destroy many of the Hindu temple???

    3. DAP=Chinese? Hel No. DAP=Malaysia for Malaysian

    4. “you guys keep on debating this openly and publicly” Islam=no debate? intolerent???

  52. #52 by cintanegara on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 3:52 pm

    DAP will be more respected if they publicly announce that they are representing Chinese and not hiding behind malaysian malaysia slogan. How could DAP claim to be representing Malaysian if they are very selective in the case they fight for?

  53. #53 by zak_hammaad on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 4:12 pm

    How Would This Reflect on Muslims? It will not because Muslims are not the ones who enacted the fatwa or indeed agee with it in most part. This will give the fatwa council an opportunity to begin remedial work in order to streamline the process of discussing, deciding and enacting any future fatwas put out in the public domain. There will be a more cohesive and ‘inclusive’ mechanism to make sure every section of leadership (inc. the council of rulers) and effected religious organisations are interacted with before public announcements and prints go out.

    DAP will not be allowed to get away with scoring cheap political points against their adversaries.

  54. #54 by Prasad on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 4:18 pm

    I really don’t care what Malaysian Fatwa Council do as long it impact Muslims only and doesn’t infringe on others.
    I also don’t find the ban on yoga is an insult to Hinduism.

    But one wonders cintanegara statement “Malays never question what other religions believe and practice”
    Can he/she explain about The Mufti of Sabah issued a fatwah that declared all Buddhist statues haram and the project to build the world’s tallest Mazu statue was canceled in Kudat due to this.

    And what about the demand to remove Christian cross and demolition of Christian statutes in mission schools.

  55. #55 by oedipus on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 5:21 pm

    i think those that believe DAP= chinese is really gullible la. try to look beyond the BN spin thru the mass media. IF DAP=chinese, i wonder what will that make UMNO, MIC and MCA?

    my dear cintanegara, we all here love this negara Malaysia our tanah tumpah darah ku, we all agree to disagree and thats the bottom line. trying to find the middle ground for all of us to make this country great again.

    if DAP is so chinese like you think it is, maybe thats why they have (i think) the largest number of Indians MPs in parliament and they currently have the largest ‘indian’ voice in parliament. and IF you think thats racist, i think you have to look into the dictionary and look up the meaning of a racist la.

    take it with a pinch of salt what the mass media and UMNO have you shoved into your mind.

  56. #56 by Mus_JB on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 5:25 pm

    Mr Prasad,

    I would like to add some info based on your comment.

    I think there is a lot of confusion about fatwa and the word haram. In the context of Malaysia, a fatwa is only applicable to Muslim. The word haram is understood differently by Muslim and non- Muslim. It is not what you have learned from Sekolah Kebangsaan.

    What the Mufti meant is that statutes (worship it) is haram (forbidden/sin) for a muslim. If you notice, there is no object or statues in Islamic religion. In short this is only applicable to Muslim.

    Statues in a place of worship by other religion is not relevant to Muslim. However,if the statues is at public location (in this case the tallest in the world) then this is different story.

    This is the same with the cross and christian statues. Who actually go to this school, only christian? The cross is a very significant symbol of the christian faith. To have this at a school attended by multiple religious groups is quite debatable, don’t you think?

  57. #57 by de_Enigma on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 6:05 pm

    Dear Mus_JB,

    I find contradiction in your last two paragraph of your comments. You are effectively saying, when a building has other faith elements in it, it will not be appropriate to our muslim counterparts if it is a public buildings.
    So what is the constitution on respecting other religions beliefs all about?
    To me, our muslim buddies can treat the ‘cross’ as a shape just like sphere or cube. If you ask any kids, they would have no problem with any shape as long as it looks good on it. Why do we have to complicate our minds?

  58. #58 by de_Enigma on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 6:27 pm

    Dear Cintanegara,

    Its true Dr.M has a vision to bring development to our country, promote our country by mapping it into the world with twin towers, Cyberjaya, Putrajaya etc. However, by moving to where we want too hastily, through bad policy, unresolved corruptions, or whatever shackles you can think of have already land us in big debt and the unsatisfactory level of development in Malaysia. (Just compare with Singapore, they have no natural resources, limited land, they even need water from our blessed country and yet we are here watching them from behind, now with a binocular)

    It is not that we didn’t progressed, we are sadden because we could have been much better off with proper execution. Now that our neighbor countries are progressing much faster than us, we have resort to compare ourselves with Sudan, Somalia and Zimbabwe for the feel good factor. So, when are we going to stop downgrading ourselves? Or are we forgetting the meaning of ‘progress’?

  59. #59 by rubini on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 6:34 pm

    Everyone & anyone has the right to debate / discuss any subject in a civilised manner. Islam is a faith, not the personnel property or fiefdom of any individuals or groups.
    Mufti’s & Ulama taking “holier than thou” attitude is wrong. Have the National Fatwa Council conducted a survey, research or feedback among Yoga practising muslim to determine the actions of practicing any form of exercise has eroded the faith in the Muslim. How many muslims have had their faith eroded by this actions? Can the NFC back up their rulings with some facts.
    Power corrupts & absolute power corrupts absolutely. This verb is not limited to politicians & money alone.Is there a measuring device formulated by NFC to determine the depth of faith of the Muslims in Malaysia.
    The Depth of Ocean i can measure, how can I measure the depth of my heart? Even Christ once remarked to the masses “Many will speak in my name, but they do not speak for me”
    Ordinary people will lose even more faith in their daily observation ritual if they be told what they can do or cannot do. Faith cannot only be deepened not by superficial rulings but pure sincere actions.

    Last 50 years why the large segments Muslims in Malaysia have serious social problems which affects them ;

    1) Drug (Dadah) addictions – Malay/Muslims form the largest component of the total drug baddicts disporportionately.
    2) HIV/AIDS – largely prevalent among Malay/Muslim
    3) Rape/Incest/Date Rapes – 90% are centered among Malay/Muslim community.
    4) Crime – incresing number of Malay/Muslims commiting crimes.
    5) Mat Rempit/Kaki Lepak/ Kaki Bohsia culture – all are largely prevalent among Urban malay/muslims.
    6) Teen pregnancy – highest occurances is among Malay/Muslim youth.

    Why have not the FATWAS helped the muslims in this country.
    I hope the NFC can do some reading about social behaviours issues by social scientist (eg Maslow). The NFC makes ruling without understanding, how fatwas would change the behaviour of society. How does this help the “Ummah” faith if rulings is clearly being ignored. Did anyone think every Muslim will just bend over & accept the rulings? Did NFC ever think maybe they actions will push certain segment of society to go underground, become closet Hindus, Christians, Buddhist?

    Ayah Pin is clear example a Muslim preaching in a different method or way is not “Tolerated” because the Ulama/Mufti’s position & power of influence will be eroded. Have the NFC ever determined why Malay/Muslim youth are far much more attracted & participate to Rock & Heavy Metal music than other people.

    Faith cannot be practised in uniformity. Take any religion, Jewish, Christianity, Islam, Buddism are all practised with varying degree of difference. Even exact made machines do not perform exactly,let alone humans.

    My suggestion to the NFC is that, please have the common sense to engage the muslims in a civilised discourse. The more u push to the right, the more they will go to the left.

    Lastly i would add this contradiction. A tourist from UK comes to Malaysia on the invitation of a friend. He happens to practise Yoga in his friends house in the evening. His friend asks him what’s he’s doing after he has finished. He says Yoga. His friend in turn says Yoga is haram in Malaysia, his friend says Yoga is not Haram. By the way both are Muslims. ?????????

  60. #60 by rubini on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 6:42 pm

    To MUS_JB,

    I think you being a little incorrect in saying;

    What the Mufti meant is that statutes (worship it) is haram (forbidden/sin) for a muslim. If you notice, there is no object or statues in Islamic religion. In short this is only applicable to Muslim.

    Muslim face the Mekah when performing a prayer which is an object & inside the building is a Black Stone which can refer to as a statue.

    Correct me if i am wrong.

  61. #61 by AhPek on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 7:39 pm

    Neither did I say you are accusing him of not being an Islamic
    scholar.What I am saying is that not being an Islamic scholar doesn’t mean he can’t write anything scholarly about things pertaining to Islam.What he says in this thread casting doubt on the wisdom of ‘scholarly’ clerics is argued persuasively with logic clearly coming from a mind of a scholar.What he presented is scholarly.On the other hand the ‘scholarly’ clerics from the Fatwa council does not make much sense to me.
    I do not know why you brought up Mao Tze Tung’s case but since you have done so I completely agree with you that some of the things he did were simply atrocious.But China has been lucky to have Deng Xiaoping and undo all the harm inflicted by Mao to move China forward.China would not be what she is today without him.

  62. #62 by wtf2 on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 8:03 pm

    next time they will say to muslims that sending xmas cards to friends are haram. Why because it celebrates the birth of Christ.

    Naturally there are strange Chinese christians who won’t accept Chinese New Year cards too… But they don’t come out with a fatwa on this.

    Likewise true Buddhist/hindus do not eat beef – but they don’t deprive people of the freedom of choice.

  63. #63 by Mus_JB on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 8:17 pm


    You are very very wrong.

    Muslim pray all over the world facing Mekah as the Kaabah in Mekah is a source of direction. Otherwise, muslim will not have any common direction when performing prayers. As such, all the mosque in Malaysia and the whole world is align as such that the prayers perform facing Mekah.

    One of the fundamental of Muslim belief is that the relationship between Man and God is direct and without intermediaries. That is why Islam is very very particular about statues. It is strongly forbidden in Islam.

    Therefore, if you says that there is a statue in Mekah , then you are very mistaken.

    You can forward this question other muslim (well, you should approach one that really well verse in Islam, some are really ignorant) , they will give you the same answer.

  64. #64 by Mus_JB on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 8:42 pm

    To AhPek,

    I understand what you are indicating in your comments.

    I would like to say that the whole affair of Fatwa is for Muslim community. It is the duty of the cleric to make these Fatwa’s.

    An an anology, it will be inappropriate for an architect to comment about the decision made by doctors. If Mr Farish attended a degree in Islamic Studies, then he can comment about what he commented. How can one make a comment if one is not scholarly in the subject.

    This is not only about logic, it is about religion, there are rules in religion and one have to really study them thoroughly to make sense out of it and to make comment about it.

    I do not think that it is appropriate at all Mr. Farish to comment in this blog about this matter as this is about Muslim affairs not politics.

  65. #65 by Mus_JB on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 8:48 pm

    De enigma,

    I didn’t say that it is inappropriate, i say that it is debatable.

    Suppose a chinese temple is converted into a school. There are chinese, indian, and malay student. Should you remove or keep the statues?

  66. #66 by AhPek on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 9:02 pm

    And what is wrong in keeping the statues? Can’t they be kept for reminding us of the school’s origin?You are not asked to worship it.

  67. #67 by bc on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 9:41 pm

    God is testing your ability here in this land.

    As long as you don’t treat anything/statues as god, you have no offer to god.

    God is spiritual and invisible in your mind.

    You mind spiritual is touch by god and devil.

    You have the freedom to choose which side you want.

    You have fully freedom to choose as god giving you the rights.

    The god is testing you whether you win the battle to enter his paradise.

  68. #68 by bc on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 9:43 pm

    Sorry, I mean.

    As long as you don’t treat anything/statues as god, you have no offen to god.

  69. #69 by zak_hammaad on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 10:18 pm

    AhPek Says:

    >> And what is wrong in keeping the statues?

    This is a very good and a logical question. As Muslims, we have been given specific guidelines on what is allowed and what is not allowed; between these clear-cut lines, there is a grey matter, where we are asked to walk on the side of caution.

    With respect to animate images and statues, Islam is very clear-cut and numerous references from the Quran and the Sunnah have left no ambiguity as to their forbiddance and disallowal due to the potential of idolatory and paganism (which is the greatest crime in Islamic theology). I do not want to cite the evidences or provide references as this is not the time or place, but I leave you with a general prinicple in Islam where anything that can LEAD to a sin, is itself reprehensible and is to be avoided.

    Night night.

  70. #70 by Mus_JB on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 10:26 pm


    Maybe I have given the wrong example,

    What if an Indian Temple is converted to a school, there are malay, chinese, and indian student.

    So the chinese will have no qualms whatsoever about the statutues?
    They will say that this is In Tuuk Ren. (I studied in Mandarin school for 6 years and know very well about the chinese.)

    If you expect that all the chinese parent will keep quite…….

  71. #71 by vsp on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 11:09 pm

    The National Fatwa Council, to my understanding, always issue fatwas following the instigation of certain section of the political elites. The controversy about Yoga came about when an UMNO-affiliated lecturer, Zakaria Stapa, alleged that Yoga has elements of Hindu teachings and that it would weaken the faith of any Muslim practitioner who practice yoga for health and exercise purposes.

    Yoga has been practiced in this country by all races for umpteen years, yet the National Fatwa Council did not see it fit to treat it as dangerous and unfit for Muslim for decades, and suddenly out of the blue sky through the instigation of a single lecturer, the National Fatwa Council begin to see the “truth” of the matter. This development coincides with the dilemma that is facing UMNO in its effort to win the support of the Malays through the Ketuanan Melayu drum-beating. After finding that the earlier race-baiting attempt did not receive the rousing acceptance of the Malays, now the UMNOputras are using the religion angle to pit the population against one another. This is a dangerous game that the UMNOputras are now playing to a full house. Instigate first, then watch the fight and then come to the ‘rescue’ has always been the hallmark of the UMNOputras’ Maciavellian plot to cling to power. The National Fatwa Council is just a pawn in this chess game.

    If we were to follow the logic of the National Fatwa Council’s contention that a Muslim would be easily influenced by the elements of other faiths, then I suggest that they also pass fatwas against the Koran and the Malay language.

    Islam was preceded by Judaism and Christianity and has shared many teaching of the two faiths. Going by the logic of the National Fatwa Council, Muslim should be prohibited from reading the Koran because it also contains many teachings of the Hebrew prophets and there might a danger that many Muslim could become Jews.

    The Malay language also contains a lot of Sanskrit words. So in everyday discourse there might be a danger that many Malays would be influenced by Hindu thoughts and could become Hindus. Also many Malay customs and ceremonies are derived from Sanskrit. All of these also need to be fatwaed or else every Muslim would turn into a Hindu. So ban this, ban that, ban everything and what will there remain for the Malays to live for? Don’t allow the Malays to interact with people of other faiths – ban travel to other countries except Muslim countries.

    Ban, ban, ban, ban… fatwa, fatwa, fatwa… and the Malay race will be ancient history.

  72. #72 by One4All4One on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 11:16 pm

    Oneness of God
    Oneness of Religion
    Oneness of Mankind

    Aren’t we living in the ONLY ONE WORLD that we ever know?
    Aren’t we the ONLY ONE HUMAN RACE that we ever are?

    And, of greatest importance and which still suffers the greatest doubt and disbelief is that we are in fact praying to the ONE and ONLY GOD that humanity ever knew, no matter by whatever name we were taught to recognise Him as.

    Unless and until we as one human race recognise those unifying and universal precepts, UNITY would elude us, perhaps forever.
    (Some may question the need and moral of unity. The need for unity is indeed pivotal and a prerequisite, if one cares to delve deeper into it, for all of humanity’s collective consciousness, success, and survival!)

    All religions are manifested to mankind in different stages and eras. If we care to go through the teachings of each dispensation, we could find that the teachings of each religion is suited to the conditions and realities of the particular era.

    So much about PROGRESSIVE revelations for now, else I would be accused of trying to force my religious belief on everyone else uninvitingly. Even so, everyone is encouraged to seek out the truth for himself, though, of course, there are forums for fellowship and proper approaches.

    As for the practice of yoga which unquestionably originated from India and claims that it is linked to Hinduism or any other religious practices in India of yore:

    Even if yoga has any religious undertones, there should not be any cause for alarm or sensitivities, to the extent that the implied religious flavour is going to change one into a disciple of Hinduism or any other perceived teachings!

    What a parochial mentality and stand to take!

    Aren’t we part of humanity? What’s wrong with partaking in what life has to offer? What’s wrong with joining our brethren in doing some form of bodily exercises which happen to have the impact of calming our minds, and perhaps “soul”? (What some fear as diluting one’s faith in another of God’s Teachings.)

    It is such unfounded fears ( or rather, such parochial and ignorant positioning and interpretations) which sow the seeds of divisiveness and disunity among peoples.

    A precept is a precept no matter by what name a religion takes. A precept in Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, the Baha’i Faith, or any of God’s Religions, would still be precept.

    One cannot take the stand that a precept of one’s religion is only the sole ownership of his religion. We have to recognise that it is a common precept and accept it as such and should by right consider that precept to be the unifying principle among all of us.

    If we take such a stand and reasoning, we would not have concluded that the practice of yoga is tantamount to contradicting the practice and belief of our adopted religions. On the contrary, there is consonance among the teachings of the different religions, as the practice of yoga brings humanity together, which is what Unity is about!

    Let’s not degenerate further than what is happening in our country.
    Else it may come a time when it would be declared that the air that one community breathes is haram to another; or that the water that we drink is haram to some and not to others, etc.. etc.

    Let’s not make a mockery of and ridicule our mentality and insult our intelligence. And in this age of enlightenment and knowledge explosion!

    Surely we are not in the dark ages. If it is, it is one of forced and planned evil in the making! And surely we cannot stand by to let it happen right under our nose! It has to be countered by right knowledge and truths known and common to us.

  73. #73 by imranj78 on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 11:32 pm

    Mr Farish Noor,
    You are entitled to your views but at the end of the day you are not an accepted Islamic scholar within the Muslim community ….not even close! (even though you are trying to act as if you are). As such your view must and will only be taken as your own skewed personal view. While I personally do not 100% agree to the yoga fatwa and belief that it has erred a bit too much on the conservative side, I can understand the reasoning behind it and will support it.

    To non-Muslims – your views on this matter are only worth listening if you have a full understanding of Islam. If not, I suggest you don’t poke your noses into things you don’t fully understand!

  74. #74 by AhPek on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 11:42 pm

    Switching the example from a chinese temple to an Indian temple changes nothing principally and therefore my probing your beliefs and thoughts still remains.

  75. #75 by vsp on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 12:03 am

    “To non-Muslims – your views on this matter are only worth listening if you have a full understanding of Islam”–imranj

    You might be a Muslim but in all honesty do you yourself have a full understanding of your own faith?

    Who are you to tell off Farish that he is not entitled to voice his views just because he is not an Islamic scholar? Are you a scholar yourself? Are you a prophet? Do you understand the Arabic language at the tip of your fingers? So you are saying that only a scholar has the monopoly to the truth?

    My friend, Farish’s relationship to Islam is between him and God. Only God will know a person’s heart and not a pseudo-intellectual like you. Please stop behaving as though you know God’s thought. As the saying goes: many are called but only a few will be chosen – and definitely not those who defile their own religion and make a mockery of God as the UMNOputras do.

  76. #76 by ryan123 on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 12:33 am

    “To non-Muslims – your views on this matter are only worth listening if you have a full understanding of Islam”–imranj

    Same as certain group of people whose mentality is “saya pantang dicabar”.

    Does the council truly understand about the true Islamic teaching? If you bother to read RPK’s posts regarding his encounter with a Islamic scholar from middle east, the council act of banning yoga senseless is deemed a joke by the world.

    Oh ya, by the way, Singapore DO NOT ban Muslims from practicing Yoga. See how the Fatwa council is trying to deceive the people? And is deceiving allowed is the teachings? Ironic and contradicting.

    When such a bunch of group is so afraid in sharing others’ cultures, it enlightens me on how a narrow-mind can lead to catastrophhic consequences.


  77. #77 by One4All4One on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 12:33 am

    Dear Imranj78,

    This world belongs to ALL of us, not just muslims. Yes, Islam is the practise of Muslims. But Islam does not belong to anyone, not even the practioners, it is God’s Teachings for ALL humanity. It is up to the individual to seek out His Teachings.

    But, sorry to say, not all muslims are knowledgeable in Islamic matters. In fact there are non-muslim Islamic scholars who are more knowledgeable in Islamic knowledge than most muslims. It is the same for other religions as well.

    Calling oneself a follower of a particular faith does not make one more knowledgeable in the religion. Most followers have superficial understanding and knowledge of their adopted religions, but that does not make them any less of a follower. Faith is sometimes not measured by one knowledge, but by his acceptance of the religion, though of course the ideal would be to seek more knowledge and understanding for his own benefit.

    This is a different era, where we can have access to unlimited information and knowledge. One should pursue whatever it is that matters to or are important and meaningful to us. Let’s not fall prey to hearsay or unfounded and unconfirmed statements or judgements. Let’s give ourselves the benefit of the doubts. Surely God can tolerate our sincere thoughts. It is bigotry, holier-than-thou, and unkindly acts and thoughts that is repulsive. It is the intolerance, discriminatory and prejudicial acts that is ungodly.

    Surely we can also learn from others who do not share the same religious beliefs as us. Sometimes we learn more from people who disagree with us than those whom we thought are agreeable to us.

    And sometimes we are misled by the very people who we trusted most. Sometimes people whom we thought are very different from us in terms of beliefs and practice show more understanding and patience to us. What can we say about these? Religions do not matter any more then.

    If it is so simple as embracing a religion in order to gain the right to comment and give one’s view on the religion, then there would be so many “experts” on the religion, which is not the case. Just too many followers of religions do not have much religious knowledge. They are just followers and do not qualify as knowledge providers per se. But they are at no fault, to be sure.

    Let’s take the middle path imranj78, and let God show us the way, not some kind of doubtful or unsolicited commands. Let’s pray that we live in peace and harmony, not on war path and animosity. Let’s savour being members of the large family called humanity.

    God bless you and all.

  78. #78 by ryan123 on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 12:39 am

    and to cintanegara (or more accurately cintanegara),

    You can only keep repeating that “DAP is representating only particular group, bla bla bla”. The fact is, there are indians, chinese and even malays. so UMNO? not representing Malays? What is your point here, and the PM announced that he wana be a PM of all rakyat. So? please enlighten a poor soul like me on your poor reasoning? By the way, with some good reasoning skills, please.

    You can continue to glamourize your idols, but look at those comments posted at the so-called million-of-reads-per-day blog. See the differences? Not cognitive interactions at all.

  79. #79 by sinnerconman on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 1:02 am

    Everyone is entitled to one’s views and they mean nothing to God. God loves everyone – christians, muslims. sinners – and he will forgive everyone. We may argue until the cow comes home for the handiworks of humanity will cause more miseries and sufferings.

  80. #80 by imranj78 on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 1:20 am

    You should read my posting slowly again and try to understand what I actually wrote rather then try to conveniently put words into my mouth! First and foremost I never said my understanding of Islam us complete. But I do believe my understanding of my religion is much more then your understanding of my religion (assuming you are a non-Muslim that is). If I am wrong on this, please correct me okay. As such, I speak from a stronger point of authority on this matter then you do. I also never mentioned that Farish is not entitled to his opinion. As a matter of fact I wrote that he IS entitled to his opinion, as much as I AM entitled to my opinion that Farish’s view is totally skewed.

    So many people here doesn’t seem to understand English very well! I never said that non-Muslims cannot comment on Islamic matters. But to comment, especially when trying to disregard something as important as a fatwa, non-Muslims and Muslims alike MUST have specific understanding of Islam. If not, whatever you say is just based on your own personal views, prejudices and thoughts and that does not carry any weight AT ALL unless you have the specific knowledge on Islam to back up your claims! What I said is nothing like `saya pantang dicabar’ crap that you are trying to put into my mouth.

    I believe I am being pretty reasonable and fair here. I never said that Islam belongs to a specific group only did I? I never mentioned that only Muslims can comment on Islamic matters did I? Let me put it this way then – shouldn’t a person who wants to negatively comment on a certain matter have some sort of specific knowledge on the matter to be credible in the first place? I am all for open discourse but I am against people who say and comment negatively on things when they do not know the details of what they are talking about in the first place! Is that wrong? I think that is perfectly reasonable don’t you?

  81. #81 by AhPek on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 1:20 am

    imranj 78,
    Since when you have become the keeper of free expression? Has it been bestowed upon you by Tuan Allah?? You will certainly find that nobody who are non Muslims will care to comment on strictly Muslim matters but the problem in this country is oftentimes pronouncements by ulamas have impacted upon non Muslim lives as well.
    I definitely concur with your assertion that Farish Noor is entitled to his views and one can tell what he has said is the work of a mind that gives great credence to logic and evidence thereby giving strong appeal to one’s intellect compared to the reasons by the ‘scholarly’ clerics of the Fatwa Council when they place Fatwa on Yoga as well as fatwa on the dressings of tomboys for fear of leading them to lesbianism.These fatwas leading to a ban on them also have the possibilities of expanding to the rest.Then what about the fatwa on the 2 Buddhist statues of Bumiyan in Afghanistan leading to their destructions by blowing them to pieces.Muslim fatwa has caused that and you expect non Muslims everywhere to shut up regarding the fatwa since they don’t know about Islam.A world heritage is being destroyed and anyone who has felt the loss has the god-damn right to condemn!!

  82. #82 by imranj78 on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 1:35 am

    Wow when did you bestow me as the keeper of free expression?? Did I miss something here? Like I said, I am not against free expression, but what I am against is `ignorant’ free expression especially by those who do not have the facts and knowledge in hand.

    Your posting has clearly shown that you yourself don’t understand the basis of the Islamic religion. Hence I think there is no point and need for me to respond to such a comment that is lacking in such basic knowledge and hence credibility.

  83. #83 by pkrisnin on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 1:54 am

    Mus_JB I’m a Hindu and I’ve attended mission school.
    Neither I or my parents found the Cross or the Christian statues offensive. Nor do I find the Mosques or their prayers offensive either. In fact the mission school I went to had Islamic classes and Christian classes and I got PE time while they had these classes. (only Hindu in my class :) )
    To tell you the truth I wouldn’t be bother by the world’s tallest Mazu statue either. But I’m not sure why Islam in Malaysia seems to be getting more intolerant of other religion.
    Maybe certain groups in the current gov. are set on isolating the Malays from mixing with other races and for other race to avoid or demonize the Malays. Divide and conquer by using religion and race.
    If person of the Islamic faith want to follow the ban on Yoga that find by me. But when they go out of thier way to tear don’t religious item of other faith that is not right.

    What possible harm is Cross going to cause, blindness, make you sick or what.

  84. #84 by AhPek on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 2:26 am

    Who says anyone must have, as a condition, knowledge of Islam before he can comment on an edict that have possibility of impacting on his life?Whether you feel the need to respond to my comment when I comment on such occasion is of no concern of mine.But when you say Muslims must not eat pork,must pray 5 times a day,must perform the haj, then it is clear that this is teaching of Islam and if you are in it then do according to your teaching but if you are not in it shut up.
    So please don’t tell non Muslims not to poke their noses into things they don’t fully understand.Non Muslims for your informations know quite a bit on yoga and tomboyism and if things mentioned by any group that appears non sensical
    to the intellect then who is to say to the non muslims that they are poking their noses into things they don’t understand? You?

  85. #85 by AhPek on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 2:38 am

    I am addressing above comment to imranj78.

  86. #86 by Tonberry on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 4:14 am

    Are we saying that Bolehland Muslims are more Islamic than Egyptian Muslims?
    Read Islam Yoga to get a better understanding of Islam and not deviate into Umno’s brand of Islam blindly. This goes out to those who have lived under the coconut shell for 51 years.

  87. #87 by Mus_JB on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 9:01 am


    Your comment,

    Who says anyone must have, as a condition, knowledge of Islam before he can comment on an edict that have possibility of impacting on his life?

    My Comment,

    I did not think a chef or a cook by profession have the capacity to comment about how to launch a rocket to the moon. This is the Physicist area of expertise.

    The Islamic scholar attended years of studies in Islam. They also have to read thousands of Fatwa’s and books by other clerics since the beginning of Islam.

    In analogy, a lawyer needs to read a lot of cases to make him proficient and he needs to attend the required examination to make him accepted as a lawyer.

    What happen here is that when there is a lot of queries to the authorities about whether there is conflict about Yoga and Islam. The authority must forward this to the cleric.

    Now the Cleric MUST make a decision. He have to gather the INFORMATION on Yoga and decide whether this is allowable in Islam.

    After the evaluation of the matter, the Cleric will make a decision and he will give the JUSTIFICATION of the decision.

    For the Muslim perspective, he must accept the Fatwa as this given by the cleric or Mufti. HOWEVER, if the justification is not clear or cleric have made a decision based on the wrong information, then he can still come forward and approach to cleric. He/She can also approach the cleric from the other states to get a second opinion.

    Islam have its rule but it does give a high degree of freedom to Muslim. If a renown cleric from Egypt says it is OK to perform Yoga, then I can still use his Fatwa and perform Yoga.

    For the Muslim, he or she cannot go and see Mr. Farish Noor for advice as he do have the CAPACITY to make decision on this matter. Mr Farish also cannot comment out his fancy on decision made by the Fatwa council.

    For the non Muslim, this fatwa does not affect them. They can openly open a Yoga class and perform Yoga, day and night.

  88. #88 by Jeffrey on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 9:03 am

    The interesting part of human nature is that we would argue a certain position, almost always according to our personal likes/dislikes, predilections, bias and value judgments. [Hence there will be arguments and discord in a thread like this, in another context, it may lead to even violence and slaughter of the innocents as in the Mumbai bombings!]

    Fatwa Council of Malaysia takes the view that Yoga combining physical exercise and mantra chanting is against Islamic belief. There are certain factual bases from this thinking : Yoga has been referenced in many ancient hindu sacred texts, including Bhagavad Gita, and its objective via meditation is to realise “Brahman”, or the Divine Essence combining oneself with cosmic/divine. Yoga itself comes from the Sanskrit word ‘yuj’ meaning to yoke, join or unite…

    As usual it is how far one wants to take one’s agenda. Those against yoga can also say tantra yoga is the basis of the Kama Sutra, an ancient marriage manual old fashioned sexual self-help book advocating various sexual positions for uniting the ‘yoni’ and the ‘lingam’….and those for Yoga will selectively argue its compatability with Islam’s precept of tawh?d (doctrine of oneness), and so on….

    In between, as usual, to disparage the opposing side’s argument, people will commit the common fallacy of citing and appealing to authority of who is a better qualified scholar on Islam or Yoga to buttress one’s position, and those who do not belong to this rarefied group of scholars and authorities have no business in commenting that which they know nothing much in breath or depth!

    There are always “dos” and “donts” and one can always find some mix of factual and logical bases to support either in line with one’s inherent bias.

    I am inclined to think human progress depends more on expanding the dos than the don’ts whether by interpretation or actions in line with freedom of thought!.

    So to curb the “dos” and expand the “don’ts” one should test it against comon experience and logic than rely solely on the finality and authority of the religious experts.

    After all, how could the latter expand their influence and authority/power over the rest if they don’t propagate the masses to defer to their divine revelation??? How do you think the clergy in Medieval time could exert equal if not more political power than the medieval kings?

    Of course those of more conservative cast of mind in Fatwa Council would not agree. They would say it leads to chaos and moral degeneration, abstract terms of which they can’t exactly pin point what these words really mean and how it would lead there.

    On fatwas, yes they are guidelines but would those who support their adherance equally support the fatwa of death sentence passed by Ayatolla Khomeini on an Indian-British novelist Salman Rushdie on fourth novel, The Satanic Verses (1988)???

  89. #89 by Jeffrey on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 9:06 am

    Sorry typo error – “precept of “Tawhid (doctrine of oneness)”…

  90. #90 by Mus_JB on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 9:16 am

    To Prikisnin,

    It is forbidden for a Muslim to tear down statues from other house of faiths.

    My apologies if you are offended by my comment.

    The example I have given is to illustrate the issue pose on of one the comments about christian missionary school that have the cross and christian statues. That there are some Muslim have some concern about it.

    So, I have given example about a chinese temple converted to a school and later a hindu temple converted to a school. I am not saying in my comment that the statues to bear torn down. I am saying that will other religions of faith (not only muslim) concern on statues represent a particular religion at a public area.

  91. #91 by oedipus on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 9:18 am

    hey guys…. esp imran, ah pek and the whole gang… looking at your recent post it looks like you guys are having a great discussion!

    just to butt in, i remember what RPK said:

    an opinion is like an axxhole, everybody has got one!!

    we cant say the terrorist attacks in mumbai arent our problem and we cannot comment on that because we are not indian nationals or staying mumbai! we are all human beings created by the glory of God, each having a full capacity to love and intolerance to injustice.

    have a good weekend guys!

  92. #92 by Mus_JB on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 9:55 am


    I agree that it is human nature to argue about matters. What we need to differentiate is when one that have very limited knowledge about a subject, argue about it.

    There are do’s and don’ts.

    I believe that the different between a good human being and a bad one is the STANDARD of the do’s and don’ts.

    We can get the do’s and the don’ts from good values and ethics that comes from religion or beliefs in a culture.

    Some can derive the do’s and the don’ts from ones head. Adolf Hitler did this and he have killed millions. Well, I think he is ok about it and he can even justified it.

    George Bush and Tony Blair have created a war in Iraq which lead to hunderd of thousand killed based on what? A WMD which is not there. He seems ok with it.

    All this is about the do’s and the don’ts.

    About this Salman Rushdie, I can understand your question about the Fatwa. But, do you really know what he did? Why Muslim is very angry about it? Like I said earlier, one can always argue about matters but the difference is whether one really comprehend what is arguing about.

  93. #93 by farouq fatham on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 9:59 am

    Religion is between me and God therefore I am answerable to God as to how I practice my religion. How can other living creatures try to be gods and starting to set rules???

  94. #94 by shamshul anuar on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 10:58 am

    Dear Prasad,

    Yes. It is true. Islam never prohibits the practice of other faiths. That is the reason why other faiths flourish in this country. Despite the misleading and hysterical act by Hindraf, none of my friends are able to justify why on earth the number of temples exceed that of mosques and surau put together in Selangor. Bear in mind that the number of Malay residents in Selangors is at least three times to that of Hindus.

    What Mufti of Sabah did is a reasonable. We never object the statue rather the scale of it that gives impression that Buddhism is the major religion in that area. Now imagine building a mosque that rivals St Peters in Rome. Pope would have objected it.

    As for Yoga, the decision of Fatwa Council must be respected. It comprises state Muftis. The recommendation is made after detailed studies.

    Basic foundation of Islam is acceptance of Allah as their God. Any act that may( and can also mean unintentional) challenge such acceptance is a serious matter in Islam. I am sure that no Muslims want to think that they intentionally or unintentionally involve in physical activity that challenge acceptance Allah as their God.

    As for Farish Noor, please do not compare Fatwa on Yoga with blowing up Bamiyan statues. “La Kum di nukum waliyadi…..”. It is a Kuranic verse that reminds Muslims on although Muslims have their own methods to pray, they must not forget that not all humans submit to Allah.

    Perhaps Taliban forgot the saying of Prophet “Those who are not fair to non Muslims are not fair to Me( The Prophet). and trhose who are not fair to me are not fair to Allah”.

    The saying clearly reminds Muslims to uphold the principle of justice even to non Muslims. So, what Taliban did was wrong. It ignored repeated advices of all Muslim countries that such act is wrong.

    And do not compare with demolition of a temple used to the hilt by Hindraf in Kg Jawa almost a year ago. The land owner sold the land to a developer. On that land there were a surau and a temple . The developer built another temple to replace the demolished one. Another surau was also built.

    But of course, what not told is that a surau was also demolished. Again, for nothing Dr Khir was ridiculed.

    Why is Farish Noor is so worried about how non Muslims perceived Muslim ban on Yoga? Even Vatican reminds Christians that some element in Yoga in contrast to Christianity.

    What Farish should do is explain the rationale. No need to be embarassed about the ban. There are many other physical activities that Muslims can do.

    As Farouq Fatham, you got it wrong. That phrase is often used by those who want to absolve themselves from sin committed. Yes. You are answerable to God. But there are certain rules need to be followed. I am sure you are aware that human need rules as a guide in their lives.

    “How can other living…..”Non body is playing God here. It is the duty of Mufti to remind Muslims on Islam. And reminding is a noble act. It cant be construed as playing God.

    As for Salman Rushdie’s Satanic Verse, well it cpmpares Lady Aishh, wife of Prophet Muhammad, to a prostitute. And is this what we called “freedom of Expression”. I read the book and I pray that Allah “show” enligntment to this poor soul.

  95. #95 by AhPek on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 11:09 am

    ‘an opinion is like an axxhole,everybody has got one!1’. oedipus.

    Exactly you have got a bull’s eye but there are some here who thinks that they have got a right to ask non muslims not to poke their noses into muslim matters without proper understanding.

    And you have got it spot on again when you say we can’t say that the Mumbai problem is not our problem and we can’t comment on it since we are not Indian nationals,and if i may add we also don’t understand Indian problems!! If we don’t comment on such acts of terrorism and condemn it, its spread will be encouraged and this may come to haunt us one day.Anything that can impact on us,we must comment and we must never be part of the silent majority to prevent evil from rearing its head.

  96. #96 by AhPek on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 11:13 am

    And besides these edicts or fatwas are not sent straight down from heavens for all mankind!!

  97. #97 by cemerlang on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 11:21 am

    In any references be it books or other sources, yoga has its’ beginning somewhere in India. Somewhere out there, certain references talk about yoga being mentioned in the Sanskrit and Sanskrit is one of the world’s oldest writings. The physical state of a person goes hand in hand with his mental state, with his spiritual state and with his social state. All these are interconnected. Example if you are sick, you feel sad, you cannot pray and you cannot have fun. On the opposite end, if you are healthy, you feel happy, you can pray and you can socialize. In all the religious books, there are teachings on keeping oneself healthy. Next. There are various sects in Islam. Believing in Islam and practising yoga might be found in one of the Islamic sects. At the end of the day, ask yourself. What do you exactly believe in ? What sort of Islam is contained in Malaysia’s constitution ?

  98. #98 by imranj78 on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 2:41 pm

    Commenting on a terrorism event is one thing but deciding that a fatwa edict decided upon by a group of learned Muslim scholars is wrong without that person having a proper understanding of Islam and its tenets is a totally different matter!

    Condemning a terrorist act requires no special knowledge as it is an act that is clear like daylight. Now if you want to talk about fatwas, at least please arm yourself with the right knowledge and experience. Don’t be so naive and think that because you have a mouth (and hand to type in this case), you have the right speak whatever you wish when you are clueless about the topic in the first place!

    Ah Pek,
    Yes non-Muslims know about yoga and tomboyism. But do you know how yoga and tomboyism relate to Islam and Muslims? I bet you know NOTHING but yet you choose to sputter out nonsense. You remind me of the Danish newspaper who think that it is their right (due to free spech) to publish whatever they want even to the point of offending others. I bet you agree with the Danish newspaper’s actions in publishing the offensive prophet carricatures don’t you?

  99. #99 by frankyapp on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 3:02 pm

    This Fatwa cleric practised double stardard,ban or haram yoga because it will poison the minds of muslim.Tobacco/smoking not only poison the lung but kill too,why not ban or haram for muslim ?We have bomohs or witch crafts prastices on daily basis by mulsim some even holding datukships,but the Fatwa cleric remain silence.The malays black magic called ” bowang ” is very popurlarly sort after even by some very educated wealthy malay muslim,is there a haram edicts so far ?. How come these cleric guys didn’t realise that one must not do to others what you don’t want others do to you.Can these guys honestly do tell us that none of them do not smoke tobacco or tobacco products ? Or some may even approach famous bomoh when facing certain unknowm illness or incurable sickness.

  100. #100 by imranj78 on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 3:27 pm

    First and foremost, you must first understand the purpose of fatwas in the first place. Fatwas are only issued for items/practices that are considered `grey’ i.e. on the surface it might not be clear whether they are inline or not with the Islamic religion. Hence a detailed study is conducted before a fatwa can be issued.

    Bomoh and witch craft are clearly not inline with the Islamic religion hence there is no need to clarify an item that is already clear in the first place. Similarly, it is also widely accepted that smoking is not inline with the Islamic faith as it causes harm to your own body.

  101. #101 by AhPek on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 3:59 pm

    Why is it so difficult to understand that I don’t have to know how yoga or tomboyism relate to Muslim life as long as it has no impact on the life of others? And how did I offend Islam if you have to compare what I have said earlier to what was published in the Danish newspaper.You have in fact offended quite a few here by telling others to stop poking their noses in matters they do not know of.I am stating that as long as any indicts that could be extended to non muslim life I will come forward to have my 2 sen worth heard.YOU ARE IN FACT OFFENDING PEOPLE HERE!!Don’t try to impose your conditions,it simply doesn’t work.As far as religion is concerned most of us do respect religion per se.It does not necessary extend unconditionally to interpreters of respective religion for they are human and oftentimes they make a mockery of things in the interpretation of their religion.
    Pertaining to the Danish paper do you not felt aghast at the response by Muslims of some countries.It is shocking to say the least.What about you?I suppose you can use that insensitivity as an excuse for such rampage!! Mind you I don’t condone the insensitivity but at the same time there is no need for such response.

  102. #102 by AhPek on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 4:01 pm

    indicts shoud read edicts

  103. #103 by BoycottLocalPapers on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 4:02 pm

    Defending Islam is a lost cause. Just read about the Muslim terrorists attack on Mumbai the other day. Should international media be blamed for reporting the fact that these terrorists were Muslims?

    Educated men like Farish Noor should not be wasting their time trying to whitewash Islam in Europe. Farish should be educating Muslims in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Southern Thailand, Southern Philippines, and Malaysia instead of blaming international media.

  104. #104 by no on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 4:11 pm

    Hallo, guys.

    Please pity the Muslim lah, because they have no freedom to choose any religions except Islam.

    I come across some reading about the Islam and do not know true or not.

    Their teaching any traitors the sentenced is death. Muslim can kill others unloyalty muslim islam followers like a game points be rewarded by gods.

    They can tell lie to those people not muslim for benefits and is no sin.

    They have their own problems to solve.

    We only need to defence here they don’t force non-muslim into this and rob the non-muslim freedom and rights in Malaysia that’s all.

    Am I right? guys.

  105. #105 by OrangRojak on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 4:45 pm

    “Am I right?”
    As Wolfgang Pauli said, you are “not even wrong”.
    I love the easy questions. Any more?

  106. #106 by Mus_JB on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 5:58 pm


    Well the fatwa’s is a guideline for Muslim. What it means is that if you go against it then it is considered as a sin in the religiion.

    If you decide to against it, it is up to you. You can decide freely to go to hell or to heaven. Nobody is forcing you on anything or setting any rules to you. Like I said, it is a guideline for Muslim.

  107. #107 by Mus_JB on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 6:31 pm

    About the Mumbai attack.

    Just would like to add, the Tamil Tigers have also done a lot of bombing here and there. One of the Gandhi’s is dead.

    Who do they blame, The Tamil Tigers.

    The American had also bomb here and there, in Hiroshima Nagasaki where hundred of thousand of civilian casualties.

    Who do they blame, The American and the Japanese.

    The Jews have also bombed the palestinian. This is becoming a daily affairs. The casualties is 1000 fold then the one in Mumbai.

    Who do they blame, the Palestinian and the Israel.

    Some terorrist bomb Mumbai,

    Who do they blame, well the Muslims.

    By the way, do anyone really expect the people from Palestine and kashmir is going to sit still for what is happening them for so many years…..

    Does Islam ask its followers to do terrorist act. Anyone can ask the Muslim Scholars and they will answer a straight no. Islamic Religion is very specific and It specifically prohibit the casualty of civilians even at war.

    Secondly, like the christian religion, committing suicide is also prohibited therefore suicide bombing is not allowed

    However, the condition in the Palestine and the middle east is horrendous. Dr.M have once mentioned that when you have cornered a group of people, they will resort to extreme acts.

  108. #108 by Jeffrey on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 6:41 pm

    Is being ‘cornered’ -whatever that means- the sole explanation for suicide bombing? Is there another explanation like for eg brainwashing and indoctrination with promises of rewards from martyrdom?

  109. #109 by no on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 6:44 pm

    The problem lied here is

    are you using the name of god for the action?

    That is what the diffenrence.

  110. #110 by Mus_JB on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 6:47 pm

    Frank Yapp,

    There is no double standard.

    Actually there are Fatwa’s on smoking. The majority of cleric says that it is allowable but not encouraged in Islam due to the side effect.

    Some of the renown cleric says that it is prohibited in Islam. But you have to understand what is the meaning of prohibited in Islam (Haram). There is a religious and spiritual dimension. It means that we you are doing it, it is a sin. So if the cleric says that it is haram (based on the islamic teaching) then everytime someone smoke, he is committing a sin.

    About the bomoh, it is very strongly prohibited in Islam. No need for Fatwa’s, it is available in Muslim textbook. If a muslim believe in Bomoh, he is committing one the serious sin in Islam.

    If you see the Muslim go to the Bomoh, you can tell them it is prohibited in Islam. They will not argue with you. (Perhaps they will say you should mind your business but certainly will not argue in the perspective of Islam)

  111. #111 by AhPek on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 7:04 pm

    There is this thing you haven’t mastered the art of confusing to put one off track.You are only a QC and what do you know of such art?

  112. #112 by Mus_JB on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 7:07 pm


    Being cornered is obviously the main reason for terrorism. One does not end one’s life unless it is due to very strong reason.

    I do think I should explain what being cornered means. You can read about it in the internet about the affected people.

    Being brainwash, yes. This is what happen in Bali. They were later executed. However, the reason do they do what they have done do very much correlate with incidents in the Middle east.

    About Martyr, Osama Bin Laden says that they will promised heaven. But, Osama himself is not a cleric. The cleric says that as they have killed innocent civilians, based on the textbook on Islamic teaching, they will go to hell.

    Hope this answer your question.

  113. #113 by no on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 7:26 pm

    The problem lied is:

    Do you treat those non-muslim is the enemy of Muslim or innocent?

    That is what the difference?

  114. #114 by Jeffrey on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 7:48 pm

    “Osama himself is not a cleric…the cleric says that as they have killed innocent civilians, based on the textbook on Islamic teaching, they will go to hell….” – Mus_JB

    But there are clerics and there are clerics. Which raises question whether one should listen to them just because of their authority or claim as a cleric.

    Abu Bakar Bashir is an Islamic cleric, widely identified as the head of Jemaah Islamiyah, spiritual leader of Al Qaeda’s Southeast Asia affiliate, he has expressed unabashed admiration for Osama bin Laden, and was prosecuted under charges of plotting terrorism in Indonesia.

    Another admirer of Osama – an Isslamic cleric Abdul Benbrika, 48 – was charged and convicted in Melbourne (2005) for planning a bomb attack on an Australian Football League (AFL) grand final.

    Benbrika had praised al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden as a “great man” and told his followers that killing women and children was permissible.

  115. #115 by Jeffrey on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 8:39 pm

    AhPek, I am no QC and you’re right I “haven’t mastered the art of confusing to put one off track” but as a matter of interest who exactly has been confused and put off track, and how that is so in the preceding exchange?

  116. #116 by rubenz on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 8:45 pm

    In my opinion, the National Fatwa Council should also urgently consider the following topics to issue fatwas (if found suitable in Islam):

    1. Is corruption, bribery, nepotism, money politics and abuse of power haram?

    2. Is terrorism haram?

    3. Is the unfair treatment of people of different races, religions and genders haram?

    4. Is detention without trial (and therefore the curtailing of freedom) of peacefully demonstrating people (also in writing and speech) haram?

    As a non-muslim, the above are also my questions to muslim experts concerning Islam.

  117. #117 by Mus_JB on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 9:04 pm

    Cleric is an English word. This word is used in christian religion. For the sake of simplicity, this word is also used to define somebody in Islam. There is bound to be some confusion when there is a direct translation.

    In Islam, the highest authority in a state is called the Mufti. He is elected as he is the most proficient in Islam. He is the one who make fatwa’s, this is the case in Malaysia.

    Abu Bakar Bashir is not a Mufti so as this chap Benbrika. Both of them do not make a fatwa.

    Benbrika have to be a derange mad man to say what he said. There is a specific text in Islamic Teaching which says that no harm should ever be fall into woman and children in war.

    I do not think Benrika is someone who is proficient in Islam at all. Just because he wears a cap and have a beard and the australian says that he is a cleric, means that he is a cleric.

    The Mufti of Egypt (Egypt is adopting Shafie Sect similar with Malaysia) says that (quote) “the use of violence to spread Islam is prohibited and extremists have not been educated in genuine centers of Islamic learning, “Terrorists are criminals, not Muslim activists.”

    Most of the Mufti from Malaysia studied in Egypt (University Al-Azhar- one of the oldest University in the world) The comment by the Mufti of Egypt carries a lot of weight by Muslims.

  118. #118 by UzMiNoOnist on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 9:12 pm

    I have not stopped laughing at those idxxts since I read about it on RTM.

  119. #119 by Mus_JB on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 9:17 pm

    Ah Pek,

    Your comment,

    Exactly you have got a bull’s eye but there are some here who thinks that they have got a right to ask non muslims not to poke their noses into muslim matters without proper understanding.

    My comment,

    May I have your permission to poke on Chinese matter without understanding? Maybe commenting about Chinese tradition. I know lots of them.

    I lived among the chinese community in Johor. But seriously, I do not think I would like to be nozy on their matters. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know that this will offend them.

    We can offend each other and behave like idiots or behave like civilized people.

  120. #120 by UzMiNoOnist on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 9:19 pm

    Opps, heard about it …

  121. #121 by no on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 9:24 pm

    I like go straight to the point.

    Any violence or hatre lead to destruction should not consider related to god.

    Anyone disagreed?

  122. #122 by monsterball on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 9:32 pm

    What makes a smart man like cintanegera become so stupid?
    The answer is having an extremely smart teacher like Mahathir…making sure he stays contented and stupid…promising false hopes and encouraging fanatic religious teachers..to promise a place in paradise…just follow them….no need to ask why..simply follow the instructions..and paradise is his.
    End results…a bunch of brainless herds of humans..simply believe with not faculties to question …why like this or that.
    The evils that Mahathir did to his own race…by playing dirty politics..is still not known by his own race…that it hurts them most…..in the end.
    Millions have awakened…but cintanegera…cinta his race and party more than anything else.
    He is being programmed to be an idiot and a hypocrite….by Mahathir….for 22 years..and on going by UMNO leaders…right now….because….that is the only way..they won elections after elections….just put an “X”…no need to think at all..

  123. #123 by de_Enigma on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 9:57 pm

    Dear Imranj78,

    It really intrigues me when you always say that people need to be an expert in xxx field to comment in xxx field. We are here all normal citizens who concerns about the issues happening which involves our lives. What is so wrong with giving personal opinions and come up with our statements? If you think what we thought are wrong, feel free to correct us by educating us on what is right – of course in your own opinion since you are no expert either.

    If everyone needs to be an expert before he can comment anything, there won’t be any discussion in the first place.

    I have a feeling you put too much trust in your ‘experts’. Even a good pilot might crash a plane someday. After all, we are only humans.

  124. #124 by ryan123 on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 10:43 pm

    I do not see that actions on antagonizing people as “hostile outsiders while are being busybody” can help the advancement of a society. When the majority is expressing their opposing view, you have chosen to declare to isolating yourself.

    When scholars like Farish A. Noor holding opinions from alternative, he is branded by some to be “skewed” from the real teaching, and thus his opinions is rather subjective.

    When RPK talked about Malays and Islam he is, again, branded as traitors by the same bunch of people.

    Whey are they not being brave and reasonable enough to take the first step in thinking from alternative perspectives? Typical Mahathir’s mentality in antagonizing the westerners as his fright tactics. Pathetic~

  125. #125 by ryan123 on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 10:45 pm

    Forget about cintanegara, if he can write something with useful contents like Imranj and Mus_JB, then only he worths being bothered.

  126. #126 by damianmp on Sunday, 30 November 2008 - 6:11 am

    It’s a real tragedy that Fatwa is doing the most insensible things!! Its a blessing anyway because it is digging its own grave! The education Ministry has a program called RIMUP ( Rancangan Integrasi Kaum) where we learn from other cultures as a mean to reduce racial conflict but what the FATWA is doing is just the OPPOSITE! I am not surprise they will issue another FATWA Tarian Singa, SUMAZAU and others…lets wait and see!

  127. #127 by Jeffrey on Sunday, 30 November 2008 - 8:36 am

    “The comment by the Mufti of Egypt carries a lot of weight by Muslims” – Mus_JB

    Agree that Grand Mufti of Egypt Sheikh Ali Goma’a, succeeding Ahmad El-Tayeb in late September 2003, is widely respected jurist in the Sunni Muslim world. And he made comments against Yoga!

    But is his opinion followed all the way or selectively? He has issued a fatwa asserting that men and women enjoy equal political rights in Islam, including the right to become president of a modern state : does this mean that polygamy is not that right making a woman less equal? He also stated that Islam does not call for and has never known a theocratic state and that there is no contradiction between Islam and liberal democracy. Does this mean that our communal based politics and NEP not consistent with liberal democracy? In 2007 he “unequivocally told the Washington Post that the death penalty for apostasy simply no longer applies. Does that mean Lina Joy could legally be an apostate?

    Maybe Mus_JB can enlighten.

  128. #128 by OrangRojak on Sunday, 30 November 2008 - 11:09 am

    Check your comments. The end of free speech is coming:


    The UN appears to have completed its journey to irrelevance.

  129. #129 by AhPek on Sunday, 30 November 2008 - 11:35 am

    We are all in fact talking about fair play at the end of the day,how one community or religion must not dominate or try to exert domination over others.You can of course bring out if you like examples of how the Chinese try to marginalise the Malays or Orang Asli or any other people, i will not be offended if in fact it is the case.Do bring it up by all means,I’ll never accuse you of poking your nose.At most I’ll try to prove that you are in fact mistaken if your assertion is wrong.
    On the flip side just compare your argument with that of Jeffrey’s.Jeffrey is trying to sell you people about fair play,and you are trying to ward off by trying to confuse hoping to put him off track by bringing examples totally irrelevant to the argument.

  130. #130 by imranj78 on Sunday, 30 November 2008 - 11:57 am

    I am not necessarily saying that a person needs to be an expert to comment on a certain item. But there has to be acknowledgment that the national fatwa council are experts in the field and the many of us here (including myself) are not. This does not mean that they are faultless but how can a person blatantly go against the word of experts when the person himself/herself don’t understand the issues? Yes you can comment, you can disagree but you must understand and accept that the decision was made with underlying valid reasons and justification based on deliberations, sunnahs, the al-Quran etc.

    You have to understand that in Islam, only a person who is wholesome in knowledge about Islam should make any edict or give directions on the religion (even I don’t prescribe to be that level). In my view this is for several purposes – firstly to avoid confusion in interpretation of the religion and secondly to ensure that there is a systematic, formal of discussing such matters (through a proper council).

    Ah Pek,
    I still don’t see your point of how this fatwa will invade on the live of non-Muslims. Care to share how?

  131. #131 by AhPek on Sunday, 30 November 2008 - 12:16 pm

    Further,in my comment “Exactly you have got a bull’s ………………some who thinks they have got to ask non muslims not to poke their noses into muslim matters without proper understanding.”,Mus_JB you have completely failed to take note of the most important word ‘some’, which in fact if you have read all the comments throughout will not fail to identify the person.And we are all discussing here on a matter raised by Farish Noor “Fatwa against yoga?How would this reflect on Muslims.”. Most of us agree with Farish and even,according to Farish the Indonesians are wondering if Malaysian Muslims got nothing better to do?Is Yoga a muslim matter? Does everybody here not know what yoga is?
    My quote here is a sarcasm which you do not even see,and you come up with another twist of your own by asking me permission to poke your nose on Chinese affairs which I have given you my reply as found above.If you tell me some Chinese have the dirty habit of spitting,I will completely agree with you.If you tell me some have got the dirty habit of digging their noses in public,I’ll will also agree with you.And if you tell me Mao Tze Tung has committed some of the worst heinous crime,I’ll will also completely agree with you.I DO NOT FREE OFFENDED!

  132. #132 by AhPek on Sunday, 30 November 2008 - 1:12 pm

    FREE should read FEEL

  133. #133 by OrangRojak on Sunday, 30 November 2008 - 1:39 pm

    “your point of how this fatwa will invade on the live of non-Muslims”
    This isn’t AhPek’s point, it’s Farish’s 3rd point, re-read his article. This fatwa further removes Muslims from the lives of non-Muslims. It is an invasion by someone we don’t know, separating us from someone we do. We are justifiably aggrieved.

  134. #134 by AhPek on Sunday, 30 November 2008 - 2:00 pm

    Islam is a religion (mind you I am an agnostic) worthy of respect much like Christianity,Hinduism,Buddhism and others for all of them propagate universal good human values but oftentimes the interpreters of religions make a mockery of things causing hatreds, riots and even wars.
    Right tell me why the interpreter of the Fatwa Council should issue a fatwa stating it as haram banning Muslims from taking part in it.Don’t you think yoga practitioners who are non muslims not feel offended for terming it haram (which means illegal much in the same way one will term drugs illegal or prostitution illegal).Ask Samy Velu, I am sure he feels offended for if he had not he wouldn’t have said he would be going to see the PM on this.Why wouldn’t it be phrased in such a way that the reason for issueing fatwa on yoga for muslims is that Muslims should not participate in an exercise that has elements of Hinduism in it.THAT would not offend any non Muslim.Then again there are other instances eg the use of the word Allah in the bible of the Christians.Why do they want to ban the use of that word in their bible whereas it is not done in Indonesia for instance or in other parts of the world.Besides they have used that for some time already.
    I have said what I have to say.Now what about you, I’ve asked you how you can compare what I’ll said with what is published by the Danish newspaper.I’ve also mentioned about the insensitivity of the paper but at the same time said that there is no need for the ensuring rampage by some other muslim countries as a response to show anger.I have also asked your response to this?Likewise I’ll ask of you the same as you ask of me “CARE TO SHARE WITH US.”.

  135. #135 by frankyapp on Sunday, 30 November 2008 - 2:41 pm

    Now will someone please tell why is it that the Islamic god or allah who the muslim claimed is the creator of human being and all other live creatures on earth is practising discrimation ? Surely he created,he should loved.Otherwise,why created a bad one and later destroy it. See I understand that it’s okay for muslim to practise holy war to kill non-muslim liked what Osman bin laden is doing.Surely as a fatherly god.,you would not be bias towards some of your children . Liked Jesus said surely when your son ask for bread ,you will not give him a snake. Moreover,these islamic cleric or muftis,are they really following the foot steps of allah when they made desision ? Sometime these guys behaved liked allah and forced their fellow muslim to swallow what ever it takes.Why is it that they never or seldom qoute the exact chapters and verses from the Koran regarding such matter which should be declared as haram ?.This is indeed a mystery,right ?.

  136. #136 by UzMiNoOnist on Sunday, 30 November 2008 - 8:05 pm


    “By the way, do anyone really expect the people from Palestine and kashmir is going to sit still for what is happening them for so many years…..”

    Can I start killing when I am have being deprived as a first class citizen in Malaysia. No. You don’t start killing when someone don’t agree with you ideologically. Palestinians are the pawns thrown in by their Arab brothers due to territorial (and political) wars so that it seemed to be a religious struggle. So do not get yourself confused for political struggle and religious struggle.

    Mumbai murder is purely done by lost souls who are confused between political struggles and religious struggles. There are nuts and not fit to be called human. Their acts are barbaric and there should be no justification by their Muslim brothers just because they shouted “Jihad” or claimed their struggle is a “Holy War”.

    So, it is good for human kind that you try not to justify Mumbai terrorist act because of Khasmir or Palestine issues.

  137. #137 by shamshul anuar on Sunday, 30 November 2008 - 11:19 pm


    I refer to your response to Mus_JB.

    The issue Arab Israel has nothing to do with religion. It is a territorial issue.

    Jews were once a hated race in Europe. THey are blamed for death of Jesus Christ. He was said to be betrayed by a Jew in Christian tradition. As such, it was considered normal affair for Christian rulers for almost 2000 tears to conduct annual pogrom to annihilate Jews.

    Many Jews escaped to Muslim ruled states such as the territories ruled by Ottoman empire. Way back in 1897, Jews in meeting with Sultan Of Ottoman Empire, offered to buy a territory now known as Israel. The Sultan did not agree to the offer but still allow them to stay in the empire.

    Ottoman Empire was dissoilved several years after World War 1. The territory became British Mandate. In World War 11, Hitler killed many Jews. After the war, feeling guilty for tolerating the massacre, Britain and USA agreed to one nation for the Jews. It was spring cleaning time. Get rid of unwanted race. Create a nation for them.

    Unfortunately, it was created in middle of Arab state. In the process hundred of thousands of Arabs lost their homeland due to cruelty of Jewish militant, Haganah. Arabs , for centuries under Ottoman empire, lost a natural protector upon the collapse on Otoman Empire.

  138. #138 by ryan123 on Monday, 1 December 2008 - 5:32 am

    they are experts? are they experts who are confined within themselves, or experts who stay connected to the world, as well as the top Islamic institutions?


    Dear imranj78 who ask us to believe the opinions of experts? What is the CREDENTIALS AND CREDIBILITY of this bunch of self-isolating people. Rea above link, the experts from fatwa council said that Yoga is prohibited among Muslims in Singapore? Experts, I would say no. They are either IGNORANT or blatantly trying to deceive the Malaysian Muslim.

    You like to discuss on facts, please back up your statement that they are the real experts then. The position of one should be be used to reflect the quality of that person. As simple as that.

    Objective minds will lead you to a new horizon.

  139. #139 by ryan123 on Monday, 1 December 2008 - 5:34 am

    Persistent brainwashing by BN and the associated bodies do work, even to adults…..now I see why.

  140. #140 by TheWrathOfGrapes on Monday, 1 December 2008 - 8:38 am

    /// imranj78 Says:
    November 29th, 2008 (2 days ago) at 15: 27.12
    First and foremost, you must first understand the purpose of fatwas in the first place. Fatwas are only issued for items/practices that are considered `grey’ i.e. on the surface it might not be clear whether they are inline or not with the Islamic religion. ///

    Tell that to Salman Rushdie, author of “The Satanic Verses” who received the death fatwa. Grey indeed….

  141. #141 by AhPek on Monday, 1 December 2008 - 9:22 am

    But then again,TheWrathOfGrapes,what do you know?You mustn’t poke your nose into scholarly Muslim matters for which you do not know.You have to be scholarly in those matters before you can judge whether that death sentence is justifiable or not.
    And because of the ‘scholarly’ pronouncement,the two Buddhists statues have to be blown to smithereens just like Altantuya!

  142. #142 by malaysia-united on Monday, 1 December 2008 - 10:11 am

    Is there any God in this world?

    Religions has cause more trouble than benefits to the world (terrorist attack in Mumbai), agree?

    Allah previously known as Al-Ilah, the moon god (as what you can see on the roof of Islam buildings), agree?

    Black stone was once a statue of God Vegina (women god), agree?

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