15th June 2007
Yang di Pertua,
Dewan Rakyat,
Parlimen.
YB Tan Sri,
Notice under S.O. 18 — Serious allegations of corruption and abuses of power against Deputy Internal Security Minister, Inspector-General of Police and top police officers on the internet by both named and anonymous websites and the failure to take satisfactory action to protect government credibility, integrity and authority
This is to give notice under Standing Order 18(2) to move a motion of urgent, definite public importance for the Dewan Rakyat sitting on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 as follows:
“That under Standing Order 18(1) the House gives leave to Ketua Pembangkang YB Lim Kit Siang to move a motion of urgent definite public importance, viz: serious allegations of corruption and abuses of power against Deputy Internal Security Minister, YB Johari Baharom (Kubang Pasu), Inspector-General of Police and other top police officers on the Internet by both named and anonymous websites, and the failure to take satisfactory action to protect government credibility, integrity and authority.
“Some 14 weeks ago Malaysians were shocked by news reports of RM5.5 million ‘Freedom for Sale’ allegations accusing the Deputy Internal Security Minister of releasing three men held under the Emergency Ordinance which appeared on an anonymous website with the heading: “Datuk Johari — The Most Powerful But Corrupted Deputy Minister”.
“Immediately, the IGP called for an ‘open and fair’ investigation into the allegations, declaring that the allegations cannot be dismissed as baseless, until the investigation was completed.
“However, although the Anti-Corruption Agency had completed its investigations into the RM5.5 million ‘Freedom for Sale’ allegations ‘shortly after’ the deputy minister was questioned by ACA officials on March 19 and that the investigation papers were in the hands of the prosecution division, and the Deputy Minister himself had repeatedly called for the outcome of the investigations to be made public, the country is still kept in the dark about the outcome of the ACA investigations.
“On June 3 and 9, 2007 the Malaysia-Today news portal carried two articles by Raja Petra Kamaruddin in his seires ‘The Corridor of Power’ on organized crime and the Police, alleging corruption and abuses power implicating the IGP and top police officers, including a RM2 million corruption allegation against the IGP.
“What actions have been taken to investigate the serious allegations against IGP and top police officers in the Malaysia-Today articles?”
Thank you.
Yang benar,
(Lim Kit Siang)
Ketua Pembangkang
#1 by dawsheng on Sunday, 17 June 2007 - 3:59 pm
The police force is paralysed from neck down as far as I concern and with this motion in place, the crime rate will keep on rising. unofficially but nothing less than a truth, Malaysia is now a lawless country.
#2 by Libra2 on Sunday, 17 June 2007 - 4:26 pm
I am positive this motion will be rejected by the Speaker on grounds that these are rumours. The only advantage for Kit, is to let the whole world know the state of our police force, that is if Kit get the chance to move the motion.
This government has its head in the sand and one day it will die of suffocation.
#3 by inoato on Sunday, 17 June 2007 - 4:29 pm
I scratch your back; you scratch my back; in the end “semuanya OK”
#4 by Polis Serpihan on Sunday, 17 June 2007 - 5:20 pm
Urgent implementation of IPCMC….
#5 by Jeffrey on Sunday, 17 June 2007 - 6:10 pm
You can move the motion but I bet it will be overwhelmingly defeated. (Grounds – RPK a rumour monger). IPCMC or Parliamentary Select Committee on Integrity will all be ineffectual firefighting measures when the root cause is not addressed.
We should be able by now to see to the heart of our society in which we all live and acknowledge the fact that it is corrupt from top to bottom, not only now – when the Internet facilitates its exposure – but it (corruption) has been festering and growing from strength to strength for 50 years since the nation’s birth and independence.
The top will obviously not take action because they are implicated (differing only in forms and degrees) and have a stake in and take the benefit of it.
Necessarily, all actions to boot the corrupt out will have to originate from the majority of voters drawn from the middle and lower economic/social classes but the big issue is : will they?
Corruption transfers resources from ordinary middle classes and the poorer economic classes to the elites with political positions or connections. Corruption acts as an’ extra tax’ on to ordinary middle classes and the poorer economic classes, leaks public resources and tax moneys to private hands, and with less in the way of resources, corrupt governments have less to pay their public employees, who, in turn, spend time lining their own pockets than serving the public, and once having tasted fortunes are not going to give up these subsidies far more than their increase in official remuneration.
If ordinary middle classes and the poorer economic classes bear the brunt of corruption, why do the majority of them not feel outraged to vote the government of the day out (after 13 general elections)?
The essence of corruption is inequality : it is all about how a privileged segment of society can take unfair advantage over the rest.
For outrage to be stirred in the hearts of ordinary middle classes and the poorer economic classes constituting the majority of voters, they must first detest and hate inequality and unfair gain of one group over the rest.
I submit that this basic outrage is not felt. On the contrary our nation was conceived in inequality on the back of a legal, institutional and constitutional dichotomy between Bumiputras and Non Bumiputras where the first mentioned category is conferred privileges and unfair gain.
Without pervasive outrage against inequality – in fact with every justification being continually made to reinforce inequality in all aspects of our national life – the battle against corruption has not even started, and if started, corruption will prevail and win over public integrity.
For at the heart of public integrity is acceptance of equality for all and if that (equality) is not even accepted, whence will there begin public integrity and political will to fight corruption of which inequality in privileges is such an essential part?
Corruption is prevalent in every society but here it has triumphed over widespread outrage, in no considerable way muted by official national policies that sanction and institutionalise inequality as acceptable.
You can liken corruption here to HIV virus that has lodged, embedded and spread in the our body – politic, social, economic and cultural – to the extent that we have few (immunity) T cells (for public integrity) left, awaiting full blown AIDs to bring us down. :)
#6 by moong cha cha II on Sunday, 17 June 2007 - 8:38 pm
i remember Najib said to Anwar to stop linking him to Miss Mongolia or else Najib will sue.
anwar said, Ok sue-lah.
today, i have yet to see the High Court suit for RM millions against Anwar.
so will we see anything from the police or the Deputy Minister or against the police or the Deputy Minister ?
#7 by Cinapek on Sunday, 17 June 2007 - 10:49 pm
RPK’s articles are so defamatory that if they are untrue, the aggrieved parties could have won hands down if they want to clear their name.
That they chose to remain silent and did not lift a finger to defend themselves speaks volumes. Maybe they are afraid that if they do try to deny any wrongdoing, more shit will hit the ceiling fan.
#8 by Loh on Sunday, 17 June 2007 - 10:57 pm
///We should be able by now to see to the heart of our society in which we all live and acknowledge the fact that it is corrupt from top to bottom, not only now – when the Internet facilitates its exposure – but it (corruption) has been festering and growing from strength to strength for 50 years since the nation’s birth and independence.///
The by-elections of Ijok and Machap are examples of corruption, where public funds were used to buy votes. This would have been ruled illegal if it had happened in India. But, in bolehland the Election Commission considered that fair campaign by the ruling party. Similarly, Article 153 can be viewed in the same light since eletroral demarcation has been carried out to ensure that with the division between Malays and non-Malays, the ruling party would always be returned to power with its populice policies favouring the majority. When there were doubts, the division needed to be enhanced through institutings fears into the hearts of the people, such as a repeat of May 13, and the disapearing of the Malays race, or more aptly called Malay Club.
With the fear that ‘it could be worse’, BN government has been able to retain power at every election, even though BN government has shown its feat in transforming a country of once socially developed and law-abiding people to one which resembles the underdeveloped and lawlessland. When the rukun negara is to cheat for progress, corruption cases that are quoted are mere symptoms of a failing state. AAB’s 2057 dream for bolehland through inviting successful foreign Muslims to join the Malay club would not succeed because with oil runs dry in 2057, it would be too poor to implement any short-cut solutions. And more probably, Bolehland might be the least developed among Islamic states with the near cent per cent Malay population, and foreign muslims would not consider it worthwhile to be bestowed the privilege which might then be only for immunity from corruption prosecution.
#9 by WFH on Sunday, 17 June 2007 - 11:04 pm
YB,
I have nothing but admiration for your doggedness in pursuing these matters of mismanagement and misgovernance by what is supposed to be a government of a blessed country, but which great potentials and resources are bled dry for the benefit of the few “up-there” and their “family-and-friends”.
How is it that there is no longer any shame amongst the powerful that what they do are immoral, criminal, in (and I borrow from another context) “against the order of nature” which must necessarily be good governance?
The greater mystery is how they can continue to rape and plunder the nation’s immense (now severely diminishing) financial resources – yet the majority of the rakyat still insist on returning them to power. Surely, and I STILL strongly hold this view, the rakyat are not stupid; yet the government of incompetents and crooks continue to get voted in, and the majority of voters still can happily chant they have a good, faultless government.
It’ll take a series of events of earth (tanahair) shattering dimensions to dislodge the current ruling government, but dislodge not for the sake of holding the reins of power, but for the survival of the nation itself before we become an African nation in S.E.Asia. Unless YB’s Rocket, in a genuine, honest and sincere partnership with PKR, and with (hopefully) a renewed and modern PAS, bring that to fruition. While such a cooperation or pact is not the easiest thing to do in the light of incongruous ideologies and realities of a country divided along racial and religious lines, there is no other way. It is a sad fact that among the 3 main opposition parties, not a single, or even a collective, one has been convincing in their potential that the grouping can govern for the benefit of all Malaysia. Even if inroads are made the next GE, the rakyat will surely be placed in fear of disturbance to daily life by the ruling BN, particularly UMNO. If that is the case, would that be too high a price for an already disillusioned populace? Nobody wants to be a hero, yet heroes and sacrifices there must be. We cannot start the climb to recovery without a fall of a few rungs from our present comfort zones. And in fact it is getting progressively, and surely at a quickening pace, becoming less and less “comfortable”.
I cant think of any quick solution to the country’s woes without some serious event occuring. Question now is: What price are we willing to pay….
#10 by sean on Sunday, 17 June 2007 - 11:35 pm
Just go to the State traffic headquarters when one are involve in a traffic accident etc.Asking for money and threatens that your offence are serious is a norm.I think if anyone do have a spy camera..we could watch loads of them almost everyday.But of course i do believe there are real good ones but unfortunately they are the silence ones…..and that is really sad.
#11 by smeagroo on Monday, 18 June 2007 - 6:43 am
majority of the thugs in parlaiment will object and thump table in disagreement. Siding you or the rakyat means breaking their rice bowl.
#12 by Libra2 on Monday, 18 June 2007 - 8:38 am
WFH said,
“..and I STILL strongly hold this view, the rakyat are not stupid..”
Oh! Oh! the rakyat are real stupid. They know what is happening in the country but they do not want to rock the proverbial boat. Honestly, many of them don’t love this country. The country can go to the dogs. All they want is to be happy making, money, having their daily bread and a fat bank accounts.
They live in an in built fear – that there will be chaos if BN is toppled. They don’t dare make sacrifices.
#13 by anakbaram on Monday, 18 June 2007 - 9:49 am
Kit you are doing a great job. I have always admire what you and all the hard-working, good-intention, genuine-Malaysian-patriot like yourself are doing. I have told you so, when I shook hand with you on board a MAS flight from KL to Penang many years ago.
I pray that all you, good people, will continue to do what you are doing and that the number of good people like yourself will increase more and more. On my part I will continue to keep up my grass-root work which is also for the same cause but non-political. Let’s make Malaysia a country that all Malaysia can be proud of in a good sense.
As for those who curse the darkness, I invite you to light a candel. Please do not say that the “rakyat are stupid”.
#14 by shaolin on Monday, 18 June 2007 - 11:46 am
Pak Lah says he wants a clean administration during his rule
however, after 3.5 years of his ruling, he has yet to clean up
all the Bad Hats in the Cabinet and the Government Departments!!
Speaking the TRUTH looks like it is WORTHLESS for Uncle Lim KS
and NO ONE is going to hear the OUTCRY in this Bolehland! NOT
even Pak Lah!!
What a Shame, Malaysia the BODOHland!!! Uncle Lim, we give YOU
our SUPPORT to teach BN a LESSON!!
#15 by Godfather on Monday, 18 June 2007 - 11:51 am
Another case of pissing into the wind.
#16 by Winston on Monday, 18 June 2007 - 11:56 am
Cinapek Says:
June 17th, 2007 at 22: 49.32
“RPK’s articles are so defamatory that if they are untrue, the aggrieved parties could have won hands down if they want to clear their name.
That they chose to remain silent and did not lift a finger to defend themselves speaks volumes. Maybe they are afraid that if they do try to deny any wrongdoing, more shit will hit the ceiling fan.”
The BN will not dare to sue for fear that more shit will leak out!
It, however, has found an ingenious way out!
It was announced recently that it’ll block or ban all blogs or web-sites that are critical of the government.
It’s that simple!
So, now bloggers and others should find ways of overcoming this move.
#17 by Ghost on Monday, 18 June 2007 - 12:44 pm
Power & wealth precedes conscience? Where is humanity? Stop preeching and promising empty and misleading commitments which never been accomplish. It’s the entire system, the conglomerate, never just a person, it’s a group of blood sucking power weilder whom can never get enough of our blood, our life. Life have its’ way to inform life. Consequences is the after effects of such inhuman controls. Never forget, there are other forces greater than human!
#18 by sotong on Monday, 18 June 2007 - 4:06 pm
The government must empower the ordinary people with right information and the absolute truth to protect the country.
More denials and cover ups will leave the people in the dark or with half truth and misleading them to make the wrong decision for the future of the country.
Properly informed, the people will make the right decision to protect the country…..not the Leader/s.
#19 by dawsheng on Monday, 18 June 2007 - 4:39 pm
“They live in an in built fear – that there will be chaos if BN is toppled. They don’t dare make sacrifices.” Libra2
I can agree with you Libra2, most people I know fear chaos if BN is toppled. Similiarly, those who didn’t sign the petition also fear that they will be targeted by the police or the govt should there be a crackdown. Democracy in Malaysia, I think we are far from it.
#20 by rm 0.02 on Monday, 18 June 2007 - 5:34 pm
I am shocked that the Prime Minister, Deputy Internal Security Minister, and the IGP have not responded to those serious allegations! Are they hoping that by keeping silent these allegations will go away? Or is their silence an admission of guilt?
Instead of falling asleep and dreaming of Malaysia 2057, would the PM please look into this matter? It involves your own ministry, for God’s sake! Public confidence in the police is at an all time low, and he finds time to get married and go on trips! It is sickening….
#21 by undergrad2 on Monday, 18 June 2007 - 5:35 pm
Allegations are allegations whether made via the print media or the internet media. Some of the MPs think the internet is for their children to play and for their fathers to look at phonographic pictures. Some think that the keyboard is what the musician plays.
#22 by kimquek on Monday, 18 June 2007 - 10:59 pm
WFH says: “It is a sad fact that among the 3 main opposition parties, not a single, or even a collective one has been convincing in their potential that the grouping can govern for the benefit of all Malaysia.”
It is precisely this defeatist and irrational mentality that has contributed in no small measure to BN’s hitherto invincibility in every election.
What makes WFH think that, once BN has fallen, it wouldn’t be replaced by more competent and honest leaders to run this country?
I, for one, have not the slightest doubt that a sucessful bid for power by PAS-PKR-DAP alliance will give rise to a renaissance where talents of integrity of all races will emerge to play their roles in nation-building, led by the present crop of opposition leaders who are many times more moral and competent than the present pack of ideologically and morally bankrupt incompetents.
#23 by kimquek on Monday, 18 June 2007 - 11:36 pm
I agree with Jeffrey in his observation that built-in racial inequality in our society has somewhat numbed our sensitivity towards the evils of corruption. However, the crucial factor that contributes to the lack of outrage towards the heinous mismanagement of this country is the manipulation of our mass media by the ruling elite to deceive and mislead the people. Our media have been reduced to propaganda machines to brainwash the people into seeing only what the ruling power want us to see, and believing in what it want us to believe. In a word, our people have fallen under the spell of our media, excepting of course those small minority like those who read this blog who regularly get their feed of independent news from the Internet.
If we have the kind of press freedom that Indonesia, Phillipines and Thailand (until lately) have been enjoying, I am quite sure that at the rate our government is failing us, BN will be hounded from office in no time.
#24 by Jeffrey on Tuesday, 19 June 2007 - 8:17 am
KimQuek,
Nice to know you have come to also contribute in Kit’s Blog (besides Malaysiakini) : welcome :)
“….//…It is a sad fact that among the 3 main opposition parties, not a single, or even a collective, one has been convincing in their potential that the grouping can govern for the benefit of all Malaysia…//…†– WFH
This must be read in context of what preceded in which WFH did write “Unless YB’s Rocket, in a genuine, honest and sincere partnership with PKR, and with (hopefully) a renewed and modern PAS, bring that to fruition. While such a cooperation or pact is not the easiest thing to do in the light of incongruous ideologies and realities of a country divided along racial and religious lines, there is no other wayâ€Â.
No where did WFH suggest that we could not vote and give Opposition a try to deserve a characterization of “defeatist and irrational mentality that has contributed in no small measure to BN’s hitherto invincibility in every electionâ€Â.
The BN may be booted out only if the major opposition parties can come together in the first place, which so far, with DAP out of the Alternative Front, they have not.
How could the Opposition evince a potential to govern when they can’t even cooperate to present a united front against the BN in the first place because of their disparate and conflicting platforms and ideologies? I would incline to characterize what he said as realistic rather than defeatist.
You say “I, for one, have not the slightest doubt that a successful bid for power by PAS-PKR-DAP alliance will give rise to a renaissance where talents of integrity of all races will emerge to play their roles in nation-building, led by the present crop of opposition leaders who are many times more moral and competent than the present pack of ideologically and morally bankrupt incompetentsâ€Â.
First, how would you know that they won’t be the same if not worse when they get into the driver’s seat? Opposition leaders are not just YB Kit, DSAI or Nik Aziz but the whole bunch of leaders, first and second echelon : the test is in what they would do when in power and not what they say they would do when in power. But I grant you that one should not dwell in such fruitless speculation whether they would or would not – it is merely a response to the part on not “having the slightest doubt†– and they should be given a chance with our support.
But before that, can they coalesce in a united opposition front in light of existing realities? Can they unite on a common electoral formula that could bring together the divisive, conflicting and centrifugal agendas of the various races of Malaysia?
Lets take stock of the realities so far:
PAS makes its appeals primarily on religious grounds in advocacy of the Islamic State. It is perceived by non mulim and non malays as ‘Taliban-in-waiting’ and is not accepted by them. In 1999 general elections the DAP lost it’s a substantial part of its traditional support by reason of being part of PAS led BA.
Can we blame non malays and non muslims for feeling antipathy towards PAS; can we attribute this antipathy to solely the machinations of BN propaganda and media machinery and not PAS leaders’ professed agenda? I don’t think so.
Most mainstream Non Malays and Muslims believe in secular constitution based on sovereignty of democratically man made laws whilst PAS, a different premise : sovereignty of the laws of the Almighty as Islamists/Ulamas would define them. How does one bridge this ideological chasm? Can one blame DAP for not accepting PAS’s leadership in the Alternative Front? I don’t think so.
Even mainstream Malay Muslims had rejected PAS. The electoral gains PAS made in 1999 from widespread outrage at and disaffection from Tun Dr Mahathir’s treatment of Anwar Ibrahim withered away soon after Tun Dr Mahathir resigned in 2003 whereupon PAS lost significantly in the 2004 general elections – and the DAP recovered some lost ground from its dissociation from PAS.
The crux of UMNO’s dominance is its continuing appeal to the majority of ethnic Malay constituency who form majority of voters. The appeal is based on UMNO’s affirmative policies of NEP and its proactive promotion of Islam of which the Malay cultural identity is intertwined with. To the extent that DAP’s policies oppose Malay racial and religious dominance and hegemony, it is unacceptable to majority ethnic Malays who view it “chauvinistâ€Â. BN’s politicians may be corrupt – and corruption is bad – but not as bad as dismantling of the affirmative NEP policies that are perceived to provide them a level playing field against the competitiveness of other races. Hence the greater tolerance for corrupt leaders for so long as they support the NEP.
In Ijok by-election, Malay voters came out in full force to vote for BN’s candidate a Malaysian Indian K Parthiban rather than a PKR’s Malay candidate of corporate credentials (Khalid Ibrahim) in fear of losing the NEP crutch that Anwar had criticized. This demonstrates that Malay voters, after 50 years, are not prepared to forgo these policies and will vote to support these even if the candidate were another race.
Keadilan is the only political party in Malaysia that enjoys both democratic credentials and draws support among all three of the country’s major ethnic groups – Malay, Chinese, and Indian giving it the theoretical promise of challenging BN’s long-running monopoly on both multiethnic politics and political power.
Yet on the ground, it has not garnered the support of the Malays for not doing better than UMNO on NEP nor the Non Malays for having to lean on PAS’s leadership in the Opposition front in spite of PAS diametrically different ideology, and proof of that is in its dismal performance not only in 2004 general elections but also Sarawak elections and Ijok By elections. Why can’t DSAI’s KeAdilan show spine and leave PAS to join up with the DAP?
To sum : the BN may be perceived corrupt to the core, and one may be excused to support the alternative – for that matter any alternative – and take the view that the situation could not get worse. (Hope thrives eternal in human spirit).
But having said this, politicians are like salesmen; it is their job to package and sell an attractive product to the consumer Malaysian voter. One can’t blame it to “defeatist attitude†of the Malaysian consumer/voter for using the stale and rotten product peddled by BN salesmen if Opposition salesmen themselves cannot packaged their product to suit the diverse and often conflicting and centrifugal tastes and preferences of a polyglot and diverse Malaysian market, thereby allowing the BN salesmen to win by default …
I assume that it is the duty of political parties in general and those of the opposition in particular to offer and sell to the polyglot multiracial electorate an attractive platform and programme suited to their diverse conflicting needs and desires rather than it being a duty of Malaysian electorate to give the Opposition a chance even if they cannot come out with a united and attractive platform suited to the majority just because the ruling coalition has grossly mismanaged the country to most of us here in this Blog. We are however not the majority voters here! You have to look at who they are, and what they need. Could you cater for their need and yet restore proper governance to this rudderless mismanaged ship of state drifting towards ship wreck on the rocks?
#25 by Godfather on Tuesday, 19 June 2007 - 10:50 am
I’d vote in the monkeys that regularly come to my backyard in preference to the monkeys we currently have in Parliament. At least the monkeys in my backyard take only what they need.
#26 by WFH on Tuesday, 19 June 2007 - 12:25 pm
Thank you, Kim Quek for your response to what I wrote earlier.
As always, I must also thank my good friend Jeffrey for putting into context what I wrote, to assuage what I detect was Kim Quek’s very fiery (but I would say misunderstood) anger at my, according to him, “defeatist and irrationality mentality”.
Kim Quek writes for a living and I must admit I do follow his articles in Mkini, and I have no problem with his talents. I am not in opposition to what he writes about and I believe we have much common thought about what is wrong with this country.
One observation from the above, though, is that there is no exclusive right for the intellectuals, the highly educated, the learned, the political pundits, observers and political analysts, especially those who do this as a career, to be over-aggressive in condemning what others may be expousing. The danger here is that analysts, pundits and “professional” commentators are factually very few in number, even if their impact in terms of exposure to various public media is wide; but it seems to me that they are under an impression that their voice, opinions and hence contributions to discourse, are larger than those coming from others.
The more important factor is the numbers of those that are not as well academically qualified yet who are are equally, if not more, concerned than the such professionals in where the country is heading. The numbers in this category are huge. It should be recognised that these are the ones who matter more, and not those who write great copy for publication. Where it really matters i.e. in their votes. Forget not that they are also the ones who bear the full brunt of the idiocy of the corrupt government and the civil service.
Where is the space for those who have not a degree to their names, never ever held employment of even just supervisory level, let alone executive and management levels, and never been meaningfully engaged in our governmental affairs? Where daily, the thing foremost in mind is where the next 2 meals are coming from, the house rentals, the car instalment, utilities etc? We must not allow the much-heard and more-read personalities to monopolise public space. If Kim Quek can misunderstand what I wrote and come heavy, who can blame others, the common rakyat on the ground, from fearing to voice out their concerns, maybe under fear of embarrassment or, worse, threats against their own personal safety?
I have my personal experiences to help me add my thoughts and voice. As for abilities in clearly expressing thought and writing great articles, naww, I’m not there – and I accept that personal shortcoming or weakness. But I have to ask – where does, say, an unemployed, older-generation Senior Cambridge-, even MCE-qualified individual stand when compared to those younger and more intelligent by virtue just of their higher academic qualifications? Is it right to put down the former, those less talented, without respecting their life’s experiences?
Read my last sentence again to see the seething anger which is within many of us – “…. What price are we willing to pay….?”
#27 by kimquek on Tuesday, 19 June 2007 - 12:30 pm
1. “….//…It is a sad fact that among the 3 main opposition parties, not a single, or even a collective, one has been convincing in their potential that the grouping can govern for the benefit of all Malaysia…//…†– WFH
The above wording is quite clear to me that the writer means that even if there is an alliance among the 3 opposition parties, he doesn’t think they can do a good job of running this country. I differ on that.
2. PAS commands the second largest block of votes in this country, almost all of which are Malays. So, it is totally unrealistic and politically suicide for PKR to break off its alliance with PAS. For that matter, it is futile for DAP to struggle for substantial gain in electoral seats other than adding a few more to the dozen seats it is holding now, unless it abandons its hostile stance agaisnt PAS.
Remaining in total hostility against PAS is to guarantee that DAP will not gain any more Malay votes, without which it is doomed forever to the present dozen seats or so, and remain marginalised in Parliament.
3. The young turks who have just been returned to the helm in PAS have displayed considerable flexibility and pragmatism. Why don’t we shed our arrogance a bit, and explore the possibility of reaching some workable understanding with PAS, if we truly love this country and place national interests above all else?
#28 by dawsheng on Tuesday, 19 June 2007 - 2:08 pm
DAP has made a clear stand on Lina Joy’s case that it supported freedom of religion and that inlcudes recognizing the right of apostates who wish to leave Islam. Both PAS and UMNO are in the same seat as far as Islam is concern, and they preach conservative Islam in order to keep their base. If PAS is willing to join the alternative front, UMNO will accuses PAS of supporting DAP’s stand in freedom of religion, and PAS is in danger of losing its supports, why do PAS want to risk this? So for this factor alone, I don’t think the marriage of convenient will ever take place.
Furthermore, the South Thailand Insurgency which looks like it will intensifies are bound to drag PAS into the game sooner or later, simply because of its close proximity. And because Kelantan is PAS ruled, this make federal troops will be having less corporation from Kelantan state govt in monitoring the Thai border if we assumes that PAS was involved in supporting the insurgency as the Thai govt claimed. This is another serious factor for DAP to consider if they want to form an alliance with PKR-PAS. Why would DAP wants to invite unneccessary trouble?
Who is taking two wives? Even if the marriage of convenience took place for the sake of this coming general election, one cannot rule out a divorce afterward as it happened before in 1999. This reflects that the alternative front are a fragmanted lot with no concrete policies as all parties differs greatly on their stands as I mentioned above citing the example of religion, it is dead even before it begin let alone win the general election.
From what I see, all individual party who is in this love hate relationship should focus all its strength to make as much inroads as possible if the election is coming our way. The alternative front may not exist with DAP-PKR-PAS leaders shaking hand and smile for all to see, it has already existed because DAP-PKR-PAS has one common enemy.
#29 by kimquek on Tuesday, 19 June 2007 - 2:42 pm
Thanks, WHF, for your rejoinder. Sorry, if I sounded a bit too harsh. You see, I always get incensed when people tell me that they don’t vote opposition because the latter has no good leaders and is incapable of running this country. I thought that was a cowardly excuse to hide the real reason, which is the fear of changes.
I think we should always look at the big picture. Nothing is perfect or classifiable as black or white in life, more so in politics. The latter is usually a series of compromises, lesser of evils, best of the bad, etc. It is the art of turning the seemingly impossible into reality (though not ideal). With the important exception that fundamental principles cannot be surrendered.
Other than my above disagreement with you (or misunderstanding) regarding opposition’s incompetence, I think your observations are generally perceptive and factual; and I would certainly enjoy a chat over the local scene with you and Jeffrey, whose frequent comments in the web I much admire.
#30 by undergrad2 on Tuesday, 19 June 2007 - 10:53 pm
“I, for one, have not the slightest doubt that a sucessful bid for power by PAS-PKR-DAP alliance will give rise to a renaissance where talents of integrity of all races will emerge to play their roles in nation-building, led by the present crop of opposition leaders who are many times more moral and competent than the present pack of ideologically and morally bankrupt incompetents.” kimquek
I will not be too sure. Can PAS-PKR-DAP form a viable government especially when there are deep differences in policies among all three?
This is of course not an argument to maintain the status quo.
#31 by Godfather on Wednesday, 20 June 2007 - 2:34 am
“Can PAS-PKR-DAP form a viable government especially when there are deep differences in policies among all three?
This is of course not an argument to maintain the status quo.” Undergrad2.
On the basis that the current government is no longer viable, what is there to lose ? If the PAS/DAP/PKR alliance proves to be non-viable, then they should be voted out after another 4 – 5 years. This is the essence of a mature democracy.
#32 by undergrad2 on Wednesday, 20 June 2007 - 10:17 am
I understand. But it is a bit like saying that a party to a contract can break the contract and the other party can sue for breach. We do not want to enter into a contract expecting to sue the other party for breach. We enter into an agreement in the hope that we do not need to rely upon it.
#33 by Godfather on Wednesday, 20 June 2007 - 10:50 am
But we all entered into an agreement with the BN where the BN has clearly not only breached it but has refused to remedy its defaults. The only way out for us is to terminate it, no ?
#34 by dawsheng on Wednesday, 20 June 2007 - 12:10 pm
Terminate it and enter into a problematic contract again?
#35 by dawsheng on Wednesday, 20 June 2007 - 12:12 pm
PKR should be disbanded and all its members can join DAP.
#36 by Godfather on Wednesday, 20 June 2007 - 12:59 pm
A new social contract with the DAP/PAS/PKR alliance may be problematic but with the slippery slope we are already on with the BN thieves, we can’t do any worse. Any change is better than no change, and this is what we have to drum into the voters. Don’t go crying that there is no justice. Don’t go crying that the playing field is not level. Don’t go crying that the JPA scholarships or university allocations are not given fairly. There is no fairness in the current administration and hence there is no other choice but regime change.
As to your comment that PKR should be disbanded and its members join DAP, do you seriously think this will happen ? It relies on predominant Malay support, and if disbanded, the members will rejoin UMNO or join PAS. Not DAP. In any case, we should not be making demands on the Opposition. I’d vote a monkey over any BN candidate anytime.
#37 by dawsheng on Wednesday, 20 June 2007 - 2:33 pm
We need to change but change for the sake of changing does not mean we have to take it for granted. Right? If DAP agreed to form alternative front with PAS-PKR of where PAS’s policies on freedom of religion is greatly differs from DAP, does that meant DAP favour realpolitik over principal? And become a hypocrite since a clear line has been drawn by Lina Joy’s case between DAP and PAS, how does that looks to the voters? Is that what you call political suicide?
#38 by dawsheng on Wednesday, 20 June 2007 - 2:38 pm
When DAP took up Lina Joy’s case it has also forgone the PKR-PAS-DAP alliance.
#39 by Jeffrey on Wednesday, 20 June 2007 - 4:27 pm
The raison d’etre of PAS is so far – and as far as I can see unchangeable whether pragmatic prifessional young turks in charge or ulamas – still the creation of an Islamic State which necessarily implies:-
(a) all laws have to be eventually divine (God’s laws) and not secular man made according to popular wish of people;
(b) no separation of religion and the State;
and for the DAP to enter into DAP/PAS/PKR alliance with PAS being the dominant leader is to tacity agree to this premise.
Any concession made by PAS now to DAP and PKR may be means to use them to as a “plank to cross the river” after which the plank may be side lined like the way UMNO sidelined MCA and MIC after gaining independence and power.
The present BN fellas may be corrupt but outwardly they at least hypocritically agree that corruption is bad, so corruption is a premise you can use against them. In the case of PAS you can’t question it on (a) and (b) because the DAP knows that these are its raison d’etre when it accepts its leadership in the DAP/PAS/PKR alliance.
#40 by Godfather on Wednesday, 20 June 2007 - 6:20 pm
An Alliance or electoral pact does not necessarily mean a common manifesto or common basic principles. It only means that the parties agree certain rules for contest e.g. co-ordination where votes need to be split or where votes should not be split.
PAS on its own can never run the country, just like PKR or DAP on their own can never run the country so why talk of the impossible scenario that PAS could change the constitution from secularism to Syariah ? Why talk of the situation where PAS is the dominant member of the Alliance ? Why can’t these parties start out as equals, where the common agreement is that the parties agree to disagree insofar as religious laws are concerned ?
Another thing is that these parties can’t realistic win the next election. The objective is to deprive the thieves of the two-thirds majority so that they cannot continue to steal willy-nilly. Any deprivation of the two-thirds majority will cause UMNO to implode and hopefully a new bunch of leaders that are more capable and more in tune with the needs of the common people will surface.
#41 by Godfather on Wednesday, 20 June 2007 - 6:20 pm
An Alliance or electoral pact does not necessarily mean a common manifesto or common basic principles. It only means that the parties agree certain rules for contest e.g. co-ordination where votes need to be split or where votes should not be split.
PAS on its own can never run the country, just like PKR or DAP on their own can never run the country so why talk of the impossible scenario that PAS could change the constitution from secularism to Syariah ? Why talk of the situation where PAS is the dominant member of the Alliance ? Why can’t these parties start out as equals, where the common agreement is that the parties agree to disagree insofar as religious laws are concerned ?
Another thing is that these parties can’t realistic win the next election. The objective is to deprive the thieves of the two-thirds majority so that they cannot continue to steal willy-nilly. Any deprivation of the two-thirds majority will cause UMNO to implode and hopefully a new bunch of leaders that are more capable and more in tune with the needs of the common people will surface.
#42 by Godfather on Wednesday, 20 June 2007 - 6:20 pm
An Alliance or electoral pact does not necessarily mean a common manifesto or common basic principles. It only means that the parties agree certain rules for contest e.g. co-ordination where votes need to be split or where votes should not be split.
PAS on its own can never run the country, just like PKR or DAP on their own can never run the country so why talk of the impossible scenario that PAS could change the constitution from secularism to Syariah ? Why talk of the situation where PAS is the dominant member of the Alliance ? Why can’t these parties start out as equals, where the common agreement is that the parties agree to disagree insofar as religious laws are concerned ?
Another thing is that these parties can’t realistic win the next election. The objective is to deprive the thieves of the two-thirds majority so that they cannot continue to steal willy-nilly. Any deprivation of the two-thirds majority will cause UMNO to implode and hopefully a new bunch of leaders that are more capable and more in tune with the needs of the common people will surface.
#43 by Godfather on Wednesday, 20 June 2007 - 6:20 pm
An Alliance or electoral pact does not necessarily mean a common manifesto or common basic principles. It only means that the parties agree certain rules for contest e.g. co-ordination where votes need to be split or where votes should not be split.
PAS on its own can never run the country, just like PKR or DAP on their own can never run the country so why talk of the impossible scenario that PAS could change the constitution from secularism to Syariah ? Why talk of the situation where PAS is the dominant member of the Alliance ? Why can’t these parties start out as equals, where the common agreement is that the parties agree to disagree insofar as religious laws are concerned ?
Another thing is that these parties can’t realistic win the next election. The objective is to deprive the thieves of the two-thirds majority so that they cannot continue to steal willy-nilly. Any deprivation of the two-thirds majority will cause UMNO to implode and hopefully a new bunch of leaders that are more capable and more in tune with the needs of the common people will surface.
#44 by Godfather on Wednesday, 20 June 2007 - 6:20 pm
An Alliance or electoral pact does not necessarily mean a common manifesto or common basic principles. It only means that the parties agree certain rules for contest e.g. co-ordination where votes need to be split or where votes should not be split.
PAS on its own can never run the country, just like PKR or DAP on their own can never run the country so why talk of the impossible scenario that PAS could change the constitution from secularism to Syariah ? Why talk of the situation where PAS is the dominant member of the Alliance ? Why can’t these parties start out as equals, where the common agreement is that the parties agree to disagree insofar as religious laws are concerned ?
Another thing is that these parties can’t realistic win the next election. The objective is to deprive the thieves of the two-thirds majority so that they cannot continue to steal willy-nilly. Any deprivation of the two-thirds majority will cause UMNO to implode and hopefully a new bunch of leaders that are more capable and more in tune with the needs of the common people will surface.
#45 by Godfather on Wednesday, 20 June 2007 - 6:22 pm
my apologies, computer glitch. Kit, can u delete the duplicitious postings ?
#46 by Jeffrey on Thursday, 21 June 2007 - 6:41 am
“..//….An Alliance or electoral pact does not necessarily mean a common manifesto or common basic principles. It only means that the parties agree certain rules for contest e.g. co-ordination where votes need to be split or where votes should not be split….//” – Godfather
Firstly, I thought they were already in this kind of informal alliance, which is no issue at all since depriving 2/3 majority is hardly disputed by anyone but I think many people, like for example kimquek, would be thinking beyond, and urging to rest to support a viable PAS-PKR-DAP alliance that (to quote) “will give rise to a renaissance where talents of integrity of all races will emerge to play their roles in nation-building, led by the present crop of opposition leaders who are many times more moral and competent than the present pack of ideologically and morally bankrupt incompetents.â€Â
#47 by kimquek on Thursday, 21 June 2007 - 11:18 am
1. BN can be toppled if opposition can win enough seats to destabilise it. This is because a conglomerate of racial parties each fighting for its racial interest is untenable for the long term. Under the present weak and chaotic leadership of Pak Lah, big bully UMNO will not be able keep its sheep in the pen, once the latter see the prospect of greener pasture of an alternative power which will free them from their present bondage.
2. When BN disintegrate, Anwar will lead the opposition to form a secular government.
#48 by Godfather on Thursday, 21 June 2007 - 12:20 pm
Kimquek:
That’s really wishful thinking on your part. UMNO keeps its sheep in the pen (to use your words) through the throwing of crumbs into the pen and how big the crumbs are depends on how much noise the sheep make. MIC and MCA are in no position to dictate to UMNO and it would be too far fetched to think that they can see “the prospect of greener pasture of an alternative power which will free them from their present bondage”.
Once we deny the BN of the two-thirds majority, UMNO will implode and the hope is that the implosion will result in a new breed of progressive and morally upright leaders within UMNO which will then beget better quality “sheep” in the pen. Anwar as an opposition leader will certainly help with the implosion within UMNO and who knows they may have to bring him back into the fold to lead the “sheep”.
#49 by kimquek on Thursday, 21 June 2007 - 2:02 pm
I don’t see any sign of “progressive and morally upright leaders” in UMNO, with exception of one or two. It is almost a certainty that UMNO is not salvageable.
When a political movement dedicated to wipe out corruption and racism is close to attaining power, I don’t seen why the racially oppressed members of BN would not jump ship. After all, the only political justification of existence of these subordinate racial groups is to fight for their individual racial rights, which is unattainable under the hegemony of UMNO. As long as they remain in BN, they stay pereniallly tormented by their conscience for the eternal conflict between the pursuit of racial equality and the unchanging status quo of racial hegemony.
Joining the new political force should be that long awaited relief to their dilemma.
#50 by WFH on Saturday, 23 June 2007 - 10:12 am
Kim Quek..
///As long as they remain in BN, they stay pereniallly tormented by their conscience for the eternal conflict between the pursuit of racial equality and the unchanging status quo of racial hegemony.
Joining the new political force should be that long awaited relief to their dilemma….//
Should an alternative government become reality to replace this present BN, “their” (read: racially oppressed members of BN – ‘ROMBN’) relief at being released from their dilemma” would be the least of our concerns.
Even if Kim Quek is right to say that he expects them to jump ship, should they (can they?) even be considered for acceptance into and to play any constructive part in a new government? For the last 3 decades since the mid-80’s, they had willingly and happily been in bed with (and been receiving their “immoral earnings” from) the UMNO bunch, and which you now suggest they so casually will discard. Though it will appear magnanimous for such a prospective new alternative government to welcome these previously “ROMBN”, it certainly will be VERY UNwise, at least not until the new victors have got a handle and has already gained good grip on the complexities of running a good, responsible, accountable and transparent government by itself, with only the same constituents on which it had won its mandate.
Being welcoming too soon to outsiders, especially “ROMBN”, will :-
a…. cause serious resentment amongst the constituents of the alternative fresh government who likely would’ve worked their guts out to win, in turn, resulting in threatening the new cooperation and hard fought mandate before it has a chance to govern,
b… prove and confirm the cowardly character of “ROMBN” that they’ re worst than whores, ready, willing and eager to get into bed with whoever “pays” them better, in this case, a new governing coalition
c… risk itself to disintegration should the “ROMBN” become plants or trojan horses to forment interparty disunity and squabbles, thus wreaking destruction and division from within, to prepare the ground for a quick return of the BN (their previous pimps/customers)
But then again, the above pre-supposes that a workable, viable opposition can be hammered out in time for the coming GE, AND also that this alternative front WINS.
Even in forthcoming negotiations on electoral seat allocations between DAP/PKR and PAS/PKR, I read that the main aim is to avoid 3-cornered fights and to avoid splitting opposition votes for the coming election.
Is it only me who sees the cooperation extending only up to, and ending on, election night? Solely for the run-up to GE and the results? What about the morning after, if it makes enough gains denying the 2/3rds of BN, let alone forming a parliamentary simple majority? Do the prospective DAP/PKR and PAS/PKR pacts, if they come to materialisation, have they even reached a basic gentlemens’ agreement when it comes to having to form a preliminary (pro-tem?) power-shared, mixed-parties Cabinet?
Again, presupposes that negotiations can be completed between DAP/PKR/PAS by time GE is called.
An alternative government is currently too high a target; suffice to restrict the next GE to a small, simple majority.
THEN, work starts to build foundations to a strong cohesive non-BN government by the 2012/13 GE. The 2012/13 GE will make or break Malaysia as a nation, as we will be staring straight in the face, the impending drying up of our oil resources during the time of that government installed in the 2012/13 GE.