Lina Joy Dialogue

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To say that she is not under the jurisdiction of the Syariah Court – because she no longer professes Islam – is not appropriate… In other words, one cannot embrace or leave a religion according to one’s whims and fancies.” – Chief Justice Tun Ahmad Fairuz Sheikh Abdul Halim

Illegal and unreasonable… to expect the appellant (Lina) to apply for a certificate of apostasy – when to do so would likely expose her to a range of offences under the Islamic law – is, in my view, unreasonable.” – Chief Judge of Sabah and Sarawak Datuk Richard Malanjum

I am disappointed that the Federal Court is not able to vindicate a simple but important fundamental right that exists in all persons; namely, the right to believe in the religion of one’s choice… The Federal Court has not only denied me that right but to all Malaysians who value fundamental freedoms.” – Lina Joy

Date: 7 June 2007 (Thursday)

Time: 7.30pm

Venue: Armada Hotel, Petaling Jaya

Room: Laksamana Room, Level 3


Y.B. Lim Kit Siang, Parliamentary Opposition Leader

Ambiga Sreenevasan, Malaysia Bar Council President

Dr Azmi Sharom, Associate Professor, UM Law Faculty

Lenard Teoh, Legal Advisor to Malaysia Consultative Council of Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism and Sikhism (MCCBCHS)

Yusri Mohammad, President of Angkatan Belia Islam (ABIM)

Lim Guan Eng, DAP Secretary-General

Tan Sri Khalid Ibrahim, General Secretary of PKR

Chairperson: Tony Pua

Free Admission

  1. #1 by undergrad2 on Tuesday, 5 June 2007 - 10:40 am

    Hello Lina Joy!

    Will you marry me? Pleasssseeee…!

  2. #2 by lakshy on Tuesday, 5 June 2007 - 11:28 am

    The Judges voted along racial/religious lines. Interesting huh? In both the cases, the non-malay judge cast the dissenting vote.

    Nowhere in the Quran does it say someone cannot leave Islam. This is interpretation of our own Ulamas.

    Read Syed Akbar Ali’s books “Malaysia and the Cub of Doom” and “To Digress a little” for more info on this.

    Why dont they use Syariah laws to prosecute adulterers, thiefs and for rape cases in Malaysia? Adulterors to be stoned! Thiefs to have their hands chopped off! Rapists on the other hand will get away scot free because of lack of 4 witnesses.

    Or why dont the Syariah courts prosecute the rapists that have been found guilty in our civil courts, or those who admit to rape. What do they chop off then huh?

    If someone were to go and use the Holy Quran, they will then fnd that most of what is purported to be islamic practise is non existant in the Holy Quran. What then? Will the Government budge? Not flipping likely!

  3. #3 by lakshy on Tuesday, 5 June 2007 - 11:42 am

    I meant read the Holy Quran…..

    The Holy Quran says that ” what is caught and brought back by your hunting dogs are halal”. Interesting point here. That means it is ok to keep dogs. And those who keep dogs know how dogs love to sniff at and lick their owners. And the dog catches using its mouth. So its saliva…..ok. But thats not what is practised here. Turkey is a nation that is >99%muslim. They breed dogs. There are particular breeds that come from Turkey only.

    There is no mention of covering one’s head in the Quran. It probably comes from the Torah/Taurat/Old Testament.

    Apostasy is referred to in the Quran. Hence it can exist and can happen. So why deny a person his basic democratic rights. Many if not most of us practise the religion we are born into. Very few of us make a conscious effort to change it. Is God so cruel that the accident of your birth condemns you to Hell! Sheesh i dont want to meet this cruel God ever!

    But from what we are told, He is a mercyful God. So just like he has given us variety in colours, vegetables, fruits, meats, flowers, trees, so has he also given us choices in religion. There are many paths, but they lead to the same destination. In any case, the main points remain the same, with minor technical differences between the religions……………

    So if a person decides another path is better suited to him, who are we to say no. In any case, if his heart is not in this religion, and he prefers to oursue another, all the best to him.

    Each of the religions have millions of followers. Are we saying that all the millions of people are wrong, and that we are the only ones following teh right path. Seems preseumptuous to me, but thats what some religious leaders/charlatans profess.

  4. #4 by pwcheng on Tuesday, 5 June 2007 - 11:46 am

    undergrad2, you are a smut. In this hour of difficulties and frustration for a poor lady you can come up with this. This is a very childish joke.

  5. #5 by izrafeil on Tuesday, 5 June 2007 - 12:21 pm

    ya lor, my muslim friend in Egypt has 4 dogs he kept (though they are kept outside the house), my wife told me that i can keep a dog as long as I buy her a bungalow house so the dog can roam freely outside. I think i might just do that, counting my savings now.

  6. #6 by marmitecrab on Tuesday, 5 June 2007 - 12:26 pm

    Take it easy on undergrad2. I think he is fed up of reading about Lina Joy so much. By the way, I agree with you it is rather childish to say such things. You might never know, Lina Joy could be reading this blog site.

    Religious freedom affects all of us in one way or another. I have noticed Malaysia becoming more and more intolerant and radical in recent years. Could it be because the muslims are angry at the situation in the middle east and are trying to protect their faith? I don’t know. What I do know is that our rights are slowly being eroded and many people are concerned about it. Some of them are being vocal about it but a lot of them who are in positions of influence are being very silent about it.

    I like what lakshy said in his/her first post. Why the selective use of syariah courts in criminal matters. Or is the jurisdiction of the syariah courts limited to civil cases only?

    Anyone care to enlighten?

  7. #7 by marmitecrab on Tuesday, 5 June 2007 - 12:29 pm

    Furthermore, as much as we all like to discuss the religious aspect of it, let us remember that it is still first and foremost a discussion on constitutional rights. If we cannot rely on the constitution to protect us in the courts, then what other avenues do we have?

  8. #8 by pwcheng on Tuesday, 5 June 2007 - 12:47 pm

    Any government who abuse their power, will give themselves the choice to choose which part of the constitution they want to use and which one they do not. Is it not true that they over rely on the constitution to practice discrimination.

  9. #9 by k1980 on Tuesday, 5 June 2007 - 1:09 pm,20867,21850377-2703,00.html

    After Lina Joy’s case, will this happen in Bolehsia?

    …more than 30 churches had been forced to close in West Java since 2004 because of attacks by Muslim hardliners. Dozens more were shut in other provinces. Under a decree of the Religious Affairs Ministry, places of worship must obtain the approval of at least 60 per cent of local residents and have at least 90 followers to operate.

  10. #10 by HJ Angus on Tuesday, 5 June 2007 - 1:39 pm

    It is up to our elected reps to keep the Executive honest but sadly all the BN MPs are good for “bocor” issues only.

    Just see how the US reps are trying to get the troops out of Iraq.

  11. #11 by Jonny on Tuesday, 5 June 2007 - 1:58 pm

    sooner later, our Ringgit Malaysia will be as worthless as the rupiah. When inflation skyrockets. Quality of life decrease and even teh tarik gets diluted.

    More and more things will get diluted in coming months. Including the stock market. Let’s see when the crash would come …

  12. #12 by dawsheng on Tuesday, 5 June 2007 - 3:34 pm

    I am disappointed with DAP for making the Lina Joy case an issue to politicize when DAP clearly knew they won’t achieve anything out of this dialouge. It is the economy Uncle Kit, not Lina Joy.

  13. #13 by imagodseeker on Tuesday, 5 June 2007 - 5:02 pm

    dawsheng, I am afraid your participation and your comment makes you an invalid participator in this comment box.

    You have completely missing the point thinking it is just another item DAP is using to politisize. Have u heard and seen DAP direction ?
    Dialogue are never used to achieve a certain goal but rather creating awareness, educating others and given a wider exposure for unheard voices to be heard . This will give all participants more information from every perpective to draw their own conclusions.
    Clearly u have not been to any dialogues…and u obviously have not been following closely what this is about.

  14. #14 by karlmarx8 on Tuesday, 5 June 2007 - 5:21 pm

    lakshy, its a matter of time – one posting in this blog said once “the cloak” covered the overall…that’s it..all cases shall be judged under syariah and no more civil law. It depends on the “mob” again. If you plot the long term scenario of the politico-religious scene it is going towards that direction.

    My neigbhour is migrating this Aug, and had a colleague migrated last Dec. All of them sighted education/politico-religious matter to migrate and not so much of a pull factor on another shore, but a push factor on this land.

    As far as ethnic group is concerned especially Chinese this land is not their ancestral land…so lots of them do not hold much hope of it. There is also one politician reportedly asking you to leave if you are not interested. Unfortunately, all of them are here not by choice, but by birth! You have no choice to be here! For this the majority did not recognise. Those who came here by choice already long gone, if not, its on wheel chairs.

    “Four Seas Is A Home” can you read it?That’s why they “flight” instead of “fight”. Its worthless to shed “blood” and not necessary at all if there are still greener pasture on another shore. Read Jeffrey’s posting that the Chinese are “equiped” differently to face the world challenges. Chinese has taken the planet earth as their home, not regional, they are more than international race than any other diaspora group on earth.

    Forget about those who claim can fight for you. 50 years down the road most of them will be museum pieces! Read my lips!

  15. #15 by dawsheng on Tuesday, 5 June 2007 - 6:27 pm

    Talking about freedom of expression or speech whatever, surely there are some rooms here to express your disappointment and disagreement over certain issue. It is my personal opinion.

  16. #16 by undergrad2 on Tuesday, 5 June 2007 - 6:39 pm

    “I am disappointed with DAP for making the Lina Joy case an issue to politicize when DAP clearly knew they won’t achieve anything out of this dialouge. It is the economy Uncle Kit, not Lina Joy.” Dawsheng

    It can only mean one thing and one thing only i.e. DAP has given up its hope of ever slicing that crucial two-third majority control of Parliament BN has. It has thrown in the towel before the fight starts. What a let down for its supporters! Could this also be a reflection of their declining relationship with their Malay electoral partner or collaborator PKR?

    That or the DAP needs to replace its political strategist assuming it has one.

    The public stand taken by the DAP leadership on the issue of apostasy and not just religious freedom, and not just among non-Malay converts but Malay apostates lacks the sensitivity needed to win Malay votes and it in fact has alienated existing ones. The social progressives and leftist elements among educated Malays and Malay professionals upon whom the DAP could hope to rely on as their base have deserted the DAP in droves.

    Religion is a divisive issue – and freedom of religion more so among the Malays. Conventional freedom requires that the DAP errs on the side of caution – and let the matter pass. After all how many votes could the DAP hope to win with its public stand on the issue compared what it could hope to win? The issue of religious freedom has now merged with the issue of apostasy among Malay Muslims and confirms Malay fears that they cannot hope on the DAP to work for them!

    The DAP is destined to be a party for the non-Muslims and the non-Malays. What a setback!

  17. #17 by undergrad2 on Tuesday, 5 June 2007 - 7:27 pm

    could hope to win should read could stand to lose. thanks.

  18. #18 by undergrad2 on Tuesday, 5 June 2007 - 7:56 pm

    conventional freedom should read conventional wisdom.

  19. #19 by dawsheng on Tuesday, 5 June 2007 - 9:05 pm

    “The DAP is destined to be a party for the non-Muslims and the non-Malays. What a setback!” Undergrad2

    That’s right Undergrad2, what a setback!

  20. #20 by grace on Tuesday, 5 June 2007 - 10:01 pm

    you should be glad that there are peole like LKS or Karpal Singh who risk being detained in trying to champion the poor and helpless.
    If you are Lina Joy to approach Koh Tsu Koon or Ong Ka Ting, they will say “no,no,no’ to her.
    Without those few DAP guys who acted selflessly for the powerless, I believe more of our rights would be trampled. Maybe you are one of the elite or priveilleged few who need no help from the likes of Karpal or Dr. Tan.

    To Mr. Lim and co., keep up the good work!!! I definitely appreciate your scarifice for us, poor and powerless!!!!

  21. #21 by undergrad2 on Tuesday, 5 June 2007 - 11:04 pm

    If you have access to the internet, can write and speak English you are not poor and powerless.

  22. #22 by undergrad2 on Tuesday, 5 June 2007 - 11:10 pm

    “If we cannot rely on the constitution to protect us in the courts, then what other avenues do we have?” marmite crab

    That is right! The Constitution has among others Article 160(2) and you may want to refer to it. That Article 160(2) has been there since 1957.

    Then there is the Article 121(1A) which you may want to look at.

  23. #23 by undergrad2 on Tuesday, 5 June 2007 - 11:11 pm

    Shouldn’t our Constitution be the supreme law of the land??

  24. #24 by greenacre on Tuesday, 5 June 2007 - 11:37 pm

    A muslim committing close proximity or khalwat would certainly come under the purview of the syariah court and so would/could/should a sodomy case(select the term )but Datuk Anwar was charged under criminal law in a civil court? Courts didn’t say anything then but for Lina ,asking her to go to syariah or ulu yam (Rahimah bibi where are you now without your children?

  25. #25 by k1980 on Tuesday, 5 June 2007 - 11:43 pm

    The most Malaysia can do is to parachute a handful of [deleted] croaking “Malaysia Boleh” near the North Pole

    South Korea’s ambitious space program is expected to receive a critical boost as the country’s first space center nears completion. …”If South Korea can build the KSLV-2, it may be the eighth country in the world to build its own satellite and rocket and send them into space.” At present, only the United States, Russia, Japan, China, France, India and Israel have reached that level.

  26. #26 by dawsheng on Wednesday, 6 June 2007 - 12:34 am

    Make no mistake about it, I respect the DAP leadership and all the things DAP stand for but since when DAP became champion for other’s religion? Once you take side on this issue it instantly became an issue of either muslims against non-muslims or vice versa, naturally DAP’s moves will be seen as unneccesarry and a provocation to muslim, leave religions out of politics because it creates more harm than good.

  27. #27 by ReformMalaysia on Wednesday, 6 June 2007 - 2:23 am

    It is the souls & life after at stake.. a human being must be allowed to find the truth with freedom..

    to view the debate related to this controversial matter between the heavyweights on this matter, visit the following website:

  28. #28 by sotong on Wednesday, 6 June 2007 - 7:05 am

    Without religion, good people do good things and evil people do evil things.

    With religion, good people do evil things.

    Religion is an insult to human dignity…..and to accept the world started after the agriculture revolution about 6,000 to 8,000 years ago, is another insult to humanity.

  29. #29 by Ghost on Wednesday, 6 June 2007 - 11:12 am

    Why listen to authority, we live our life the way we want to live. Ignore all those follower, they lost their soul, too lazy to seek for truth, instead just follow blindly with the crowd. This are the peoples’ that created Nazi. Now, they just lacking of Hitler.
    Ignore them, they will learn when they die.

  30. #30 by FuturePolitician on Wednesday, 6 June 2007 - 11:25 am

    undergrad, what you said is true.. Election is coming…DAP is doing the correct things. The court has made its decision, there is much we can do. It will effect all of us in the future on the art 11 issues.. There is so much important issues that DAP has brought up in this blog or in their site, BUT nothing mention what will they do if they are elected by the people.

    Just too much issues…

  31. #31 by ipohfly on Wednesday, 6 June 2007 - 11:42 am

    Perhaps the message that DAP tries to send out is the value behind the case – the fundamental rights to choose ones own religion.

    But, in our society where our malay friends grew up believing that they should follow Islam and nothing else, with politicians ( be it the rulling party or the opposition ) ever ready to manipulate the religion, this could be a double-edged sword.

    If DAP could lessen its involvement in the dialogue, then maybe the topic could be as neutral as it could be. Just my thought.

  32. #32 by Godamn Singh on Wednesday, 6 June 2007 - 6:28 pm

    “If DAP could lessen its involvement in the dialogue, then maybe the topic could be as neutral as it could be. Just my thought.”

    Yes. When is the DAP going to get it right?

  33. #33 by grace on Wednesday, 6 June 2007 - 6:55 pm

    “There is so much important issues that DAP has brought up in this blog or in their site, BUT nothing mention what will they do if they are elected by the people”.

    Very true indeed. If DAP were to promise you what they can do if it is elected, it is just like promising you the moon . DAP knows too well that it is almost impossible for them to come to power . Thus, what is the use of promising you some thing that will not exist. Even though in theior own constitutuencies, they are cut of the much needed fund which was given to BN MPs.

  34. #34 by undergrad2 on Wednesday, 6 June 2007 - 10:13 pm

    “Very true indeed. If DAP were to promise you what they can do if it is elected, it is just like promising you the moon.”

    Let’s hope it has nothing to do with that time of the month. But he is talking about a manifesto.

  35. #35 by RGRaj on Thursday, 7 June 2007 - 12:08 am

    If Muslims (an imam no less) are afraid that this issue has the potential to open the flood gates (of apostacising Muslims), then where is the faith of the millions of Malaysian Muslims in their beautiful & complete religion? Shouldn’t a religion use love & devotion as a basis to maintain it’s flock, and not fear & subjugation?

  36. #36 by ypmeng on Thursday, 7 June 2007 - 1:47 am

    Being blinded all the time to suit ones own belief, it is hard to see things in the correct manner, and lack of intellectual reasoning follows thereafter.

  37. #37 by Godamn Singh on Thursday, 7 June 2007 - 5:57 am

    Tell that to the Lebanese, Syrians, Iraqis and Iranians and the Saudis.

  38. #38 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 7 June 2007 - 5:58 am

    Don’t be naive.

  39. #39 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 7 June 2007 - 6:04 am

    All religions preach love.

    Yet for the last two thousand years they killed each other in the name of religion – and are still doing it. Christians committed genocide in South America several centuries ago. Catholics and Protestants are still killing each other. The Sunnis and the Shiates are at each others’ throats. Some two million Muslims died fighting each other in the Iraq-Iran war.

    So what’s new?

  40. #40 by lakshy on Thursday, 7 June 2007 - 9:03 am

    RGRAJ, you are right. But dont confuse Islam, with what is practised in malaysia and many other muslim countries. They ahve deviated from the path, and the teachings in the Quran. And as it says in the holy books, God save those who mislead in the name of Islam!

  41. #41 by dawsheng on Thursday, 7 June 2007 - 11:27 am

    The most pressing issue facing the rakyat is about bread and butter, many people are having a hard time making ends meet. Instead of holding a religous dialouge DAP might want to consider holding a economic forum like “how to handle recessesion” or “incorporating IT in your business” or “globalization & Malaysia” etc. all over the country, Tony Pua should be good at this. Reach out to all those troubled SMEs, see how you can assist them. I am sure DAP will get a much larger crowd of all races to this forums as it is most relevant compares to conflicting issue like Lina Joy. DAP then can take this opportunities to explain to the rakyat what DAP stands for, and why it is against party capitalism etc.

  42. #42 by AnakTiriMalaysia on Thursday, 7 June 2007 - 7:23 pm

    There are 3 kind of truths

    1.Your truth (maybe your religion is the truth)

    2.My truth (maybe my religion is the truth)

    3.THE TRUTH (the real TRUTH)


    then MAN had to find out which one is the actual truth…. to find out, there should not be any hindrance.. politically or whatsoever….let the REAL TRUTH PREVAIL…. you can jail someone….but just physically… but not the belief!!!

    THE REAL TRUTH do not need any show of force or abuse of power to protect it….


  43. #43 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 7 June 2007 - 10:44 pm

    I agree with Dawsheng. Religion is a divisive issue. The issue of religious freedom could cut both ways.

    Why must the DAP insist on remaining in the eye of the storm?

  44. #44 by pamelaoda on Friday, 8 June 2007 - 8:46 am

    We should mix politic with religion as religion is strictly private affair, but can DAP help it when the government keep on politicing religion with politic?? I think we all came to this situation (chinese being marginalised, keris waving etc) is because in early days not many public aware of the dirty tactics ppl played and secondly even those who does, they dare not make a single noise. Of course MCA, played a very important part playing out the Chinese hence keeping queit. As a whole i think the Chinese in Malaysia is very tolerance until others got the wrong message. The chinese now instead of stopping ppl from standing all over our head, we are saying “hey, how long do you wanna stand?”

    Sorry for the burst out cos it really pissed me off!

  45. #45 by pamelaoda on Friday, 8 June 2007 - 8:46 am

    should be we should not mix politic….

  46. #46 by boilingmad on Tuesday, 3 July 2007 - 12:12 pm

    People, people, are we not also becoming racist ourselves? DAP’s stand on Lino Joy is not based on whether it’s on Islam or Buddhism or Hinduism. I see it as a fight for an individual’s freedom of choice.
    With the elections coming, we have to be united no matter what. I don’t believe the opposition will stand a chance of being the Govt. I’ve always been told by my late father that voting for the opposition is simply to give them the ‘power’ of being a strong watchdog & to fight the wrongs done by BN. Let’s face it, apart from TDM, there are NO MORE good leaders left. What we have now is the weakest and most corrupted bunch of polititians ever to rule the country. So voting for the worst is only going to perpetuate the rot and make it worse. What we need most now is a very strong opposition to ensure that the Govt. no longer has the assumption that they can do thing the way they want … not without the two third majority support!!!

  47. #47 by akarmalaysian on Tuesday, 14 August 2007 - 3:19 pm

    we hv the freedom in embracing any religion we want and its guaranteed under our constitution.islam is a moderate and humble religion.its not islam that set laws unto any beings stating that a mislim ‘must’ always be a muslim.islam doesnt forbid any individuals fr denouncing its own religion.its this government in malaysia thats trying so hard to protect islam in such manner that its bringing shame into its own religion.islam is never wrong…its only narrow minded thinking individuals trying to preach islam in the wrong manner.i bet the judges in Lina’s case doesnt knw a clue wat islam is all abt.and i bet they are being too personal in making and handling out their judgements.its nvr been a fair trial and we all knw better.

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