Mysterious Witness took stand at TBH inquest

02:46 PM
Inquest adjourns 4tmr Malik asking 4date 4thai pathologist pontip 2testify

02:43 PM
After that complained 2 deputy minister murugiah n public complaints bureau as far as he knows only bpa investigated

02:39 PM
He made 1st complaint 2Suaram then made police report n 3rd complaint 2suhakam

02:37 PM
Was treated 4injuries on head kidney private part n bloodclots He went 2studio 2have pictures of injuries taken Siva produced torn underwear

02:33 PM
Ashraf hit him on private part with cane He was asked 2wear back same underwear which was torn becos of torture

02:11 PM
in plastic bag inside his underwear at his private parts The second round of torture started at abt midnite the second day The same torture

02:08 PM
Dy dir asked officer 2continue investigation n that he be stripped again He fainted after abt 20 mins When he woke up there was ice

02:04 PM
Asraf asked 4cane n cuffs 4his legs Asraf used cane agst his private parts Was dressed up when deputy director came in

02:00 PM
with the metal wrapped in newspaper He was handcuffed all the time Asraf came in used racist slurs 2taunt him He became aggressive at slurs

01:56 PM
He was asked 2sign document but he refused Officers said he was stubborn n asked him 2strip down 2underwear Officers beat him all over body

01:53 PM
The door was marked w green arrow n the entrance was dark Saw a tall guy with specs wrapped a metal with newspaper He was slapped 5 6 times

01:50 PM
10 to 15 officers brought him back 2house on way back he was brought in using different entrance at plaza masalam

01:47 PM
3 officers came w letters of arrest n investigation He refused 2sign becos he was brought there 2help investigation was handcuffed till 11pm

01:41 PM
He was brought 2plaza masalam 14th floor MACC officers registered n threatened him if he does not say the truth the place will be hell 4him

12:45 PM
He said 3 macc officers without uniform came 2his house 4 sept 2008 identified one of them as Ashraf

12:39 PM
Coroner finally allows mysterious witness Sivanesan Tanggavelu 22 take stand n oath

12:28 PM
Macc counsel asks 4ct recess 2allow him 2make appln 4review

12:26 PM
Gobind said macc is afraid of witness

12:25 PM
Macc lawyers said appln 2high ct 2review ruling @2pm Malik charged this as backdoor macc attempt 2derail inquest

12:22 PM
Heated arguments by lawyers after recess Coroner decided 2proceed with yesterday ruling 2call mysterious witness

Inquest adjourns 4coroner 2view yesterday video n decide whether 2revisit his ruling on calling of witness
about 4 hours ago from TwitterBerry

Gobind argues no prejudicial issue n that witness was hospitalised 4 days becos of assault injuries
about 5 hours ago from TwitterBerry

Coroner seeks lawyers advice whether he can revisit his decision on calling witness
about 5 hours ago from TwitterBerry

Malik submits MACC lawyer abusing court process as latter objects 2witness 10mths old case n await outcome of police macc investigations
about 5 hours ago from TwitterBerry

Gobind asked why no MACC officers at inquest 2rebut serious allegations he raised last week
about 5 hours ago from TwitterBerry

TeohBengHock inquest resumes with MACC counsel objecting 2calling of mysterious witness Lawyers both sides arguing over issue
about 5 hours ago from TwitterBerry

  1. #1 by walkman on Wednesday, 9 September 2009 - 3:35 pm

    This what I received from Hong Kong ICAC after I left comment on their website regarding death of their suspects as told by our MACC’s boss.

    Our Ref : ICAC 502/1 Part 13

    Dear Mr CHEW,

    Thank you for your email of 2 September 2009.

    2. We are aware of some reported incidents in the past in which the deceased have been involved in ICAC investigations. However, as we are not privy to the exact circumstances, we do not have any related statistics. Nonetheless, we feel sorry for the loss of lives under any circumstances.

    3. As an anti corruption law enforcement agency, we have a statutory duty to pursue every suspected corruption case. Interviews with suspects are conducted in strict accordance with the laws, while the personal rights of suspects are respected throughout. A suspect is entitled to engage legal representatives to accompany him/her during the interview. With the consent of the suspects, the whole process of their interviews is video recorded and they will be given a copy of the videoed interviews (now in the form of DVD). Two other copies will be kept respectively for use by the ICAC and for presentation to the court if there is a prosecution.

    4. ICAC’s work is subject to a system of checks and balances. Specifically, ICAC’s investigative work is under the scrutiny of the Operations Review Committee. Besides, members of the public who are discontent with the ICAC or its officers can lodge complaints with the ICAC Complaints Committee, which publishes its own annual reports open to public access. More details about the work of the ICAC can be found in our website:

    Ms Audrey WU,
    for Commissioner,
    Independent Commission Against Corruption

  2. #2 by taiking on Wednesday, 9 September 2009 - 4:18 pm

    2moro mysterious witness will swear on oath and retract all that he had said today. After dat he and family will dissappear – never to be found again. Then it will be futile effort malik imtiaz. Wasted energy gobind. Still. Good try. Thanks anyway. We all know who which version to accept and which version to reject.

    I only hope that something like what I fantasised above will not happen to this witness.

  3. #3 by Onlooker Politics on Wednesday, 9 September 2009 - 4:34 pm

    Taiking, your imagination will turn true only when the culprit involved in causing death to Teoh Beng Hock has a load brother who works as the CEO of a government-linked Business Group of Commercial Banks and Merchant Banks!

  4. #4 by Onlooker Politics on Wednesday, 9 September 2009 - 4:35 pm

    Soory, “a load brother” should be changed to “a loaded brother”!

  5. #5 by Onlooker Politics on Wednesday, 9 September 2009 - 4:40 pm

    “ICAC’s work is subject to a system of checks and balances.”

    A system of checks and balances should be exactly a right target which the conscientious Malaysian people work hard to achieve, especially when the newly established MACC is tragically lack of a system of checks and balances!

  6. #6 by Dap man on Wednesday, 9 September 2009 - 4:41 pm

    ICAC is managed by civilized people where as MACC is run by barbarians with no brain matter to elicit information through intelligent questioning. They use torture for confessions which is the easy way out.
    “We have no evidence so you tell us what you did” method.
    MACC officers have no academic qualifications either. It’s skin colour that put them there.

  7. #7 by Onlooker Politics on Wednesday, 9 September 2009 - 4:45 pm

    I meant the Malaysian people must strive hard to accomplish the goal of establishing a system of checks and balances within the MACC as the individual problematic organization and also within the Federal Government as a whole!

    As an accounting trained person, I believe Lim Guan Eng should know much better about how a system of checks and balances should work! Lim Guan Eng should have voiced out his opinion about such a very much sought after system for the Malaysian people!

  8. #8 by Onlooker Politics on Wednesday, 9 September 2009 - 4:54 pm

    Academic qualifications do not guarantee a good officer in law enforcement unit! For instance, Tan Sri Rahim Noor was a university graduate but he acted more like Mike Tyson or Mohamad Ali, who might not be as uncivilized as Rahim Noor! And who say the MACC investigator who took Teoh Beng Hock to the MACC Selangor HQ Building does not hold a university degree?

    The most important thing to have in a law enforcement unit is a system of checks and balances so that no one officer can escape from bearing his legal responsibility when his action or inaction has caused death to a witness!

  9. #9 by monsterballssgoh on Wednesday, 9 September 2009 - 5:59 pm

    They make it difficult for one to defend Teoh….keep asking for proof…and when witnesses are willing to come out and proof MACC is what we always know they are…MACC want to stop that said witness.
    I have never heard of a court case…..from a so call clean government is afraid of witnesses …except in Malaysia.
    Lingam Case have be finalized by the Royal Commissioners which any fool should now…the police should act and charge them. Lingam should be debarred long ago.
    If that case…so one is found guilty…you can forget…justice will be seen and done for Teoh.
    But voters will do the right thing…as the root cause is UMNO government.

  10. #10 by yhsiew on Wednesday, 9 September 2009 - 6:52 pm

    “ICAC’s work is subject to a system of checks and balances.”

    In Bolehland only the opposition parties are qualified to conduct checks and balances on the MACC which is being controlled by the regime in power.

  11. #11 by johnnypok on Wednesday, 9 September 2009 - 7:12 pm

    MACC behave like gangster. But the gangsters have brain, while MACC is made of shit! Yes shit and rubbish.

    ICAC = Real Professional

  12. #12 by Onlooker Politics on Wednesday, 9 September 2009 - 7:14 pm

    By relying only on the supervision of the Opposition Parties as a measure of providing checks and balances simply is insufficient to impose a restraint on MACC officers from any possible abuse of power!

    The legal immunity given to the MACC officers should be imposed with certain limit. The victims of MACC officers’ abuse of power should be allowed the legal rights to file a lawsuit against the MACC officers for human rights infringement if the MACC officers are accused for allegedly resorting to illegal torture techniques during the process of interrogation.

    The victims of the illegal harrassment by MACC officers should also be allowed the legal rights to take the MACC officers to court when MACC officers are being accused for committing the crime of wrongful arrest. Otherwise, an MACC male officer will simply make use of his legal immunity to detain whoever ugly man whom he doesn’t like, or to detain whoever pretty girl on whom he has the malicious intent to commit sexual harrassment or to rape!

    Pak Lah has made the biggest mistake during his tenure as the PM by allowing the MACC officers to enjoy full legal immunity without establishing a proper system of checks and balances!

  13. #13 by ekompute on Wednesday, 9 September 2009 - 9:06 pm

    “Ashraf hit him on private part with cane He was asked 2wear back same underwear which was torn becos of torture”

    Syariah law in action, ahem…. We better make Arabic language the official language so that Muslims can understand what Islam is all about.

  14. #14 by ekompute on Wednesday, 9 September 2009 - 9:20 pm

    Immunity protection cannot be absolute and must be within the bounds of what is generally considered acceptable. It cannot offer protection to anyone who acts inhumanely, otherwise it would only make a mockery out of the law… (ahem, the law…. seems like Malaysia is now in a state of lawlessness). Immunity protection is extremely dangerous when you have psychomaniacs in MACC or any government department for that matter. I believe God will punish UMNO and all its gungho eventually.

    If God were human, I believe He will be severely criticized for His Kelembapan. Maybe this is the very reason why those monkeys don’t believe in God or retribution.

  15. #15 by ekompute on Wednesday, 9 September 2009 - 9:21 pm

    Onlooker Politics :
    Pak Lah has made the biggest mistake during his tenure as the PM by allowing the MACC officers to enjoy full legal immunity without establishing a proper system of checks and balances!

    Let’s not talk about Pak Lah. He’s not worth wasting our breath on.

  16. #16 by cseng on Wednesday, 9 September 2009 - 9:22 pm

    Who in bolehland believe Police and MACC don’t torture suspect? they are licensed gangster!

    We all know this goverment rotten to the core. The problem is they still get elected as goverment. So, either you can yell like mad! they still say “so what!”.

    Each of us still can contribute a little to change the country for our children, being a change-agent!. Talk about these with friends everyday, during lunch, during dinner, during travelling or at Kopitiam. Tell them the important of creating 2 parties system by next GE. Tell them important of choosing PR to form goverment, to change MACC, change the Judisciary, change the PDRM, stop our money been stolen like ATM machine. -These are things we can do, and we should be doing, now!-

  17. #17 by Ken G on Wednesday, 9 September 2009 - 9:33 pm

    ICAC and MACC are worlds apart. ICAC operates according to the law and has a system of checks and balance but MACC operates like lawless Gestapos and have no checks and balance. Don’t make me laugh if anybody says MACC has 42 advisers. These advisers have no power over MACC and are mere window dressing. They jump for joy when the MACC depuy head says a few kind words about them in the press. So who is the master here – MACC or the advisers?

    MACC Gestapos think they are above the law because the police dare not investigate them. If nobody from this repulsive commission is charged for Teoh’s death, expect the torture and murder to continue with impunity.

    If such barbaric acts is what a low power inquest can dredge up about the MACC, what will a Royal Commission of Inquiry unearth? But friends, don’t be surprised if Najib wriggles out of setting up a RCI. I think there’s a fair chance it will not be set up, mark my words!

  18. #18 by ekompute on Wednesday, 9 September 2009 - 9:49 pm

    Ken G :
    But friends, don’t be surprised if Najib wriggles out of setting up a RCI. I think there’s a fair chance it will not be set up, mark my words!

    If Najib is God-fearing and has any self-respect, he should take responsibility for what happens and resign voluntary with this finding that contradicts the official version of suicide and don’t know, don’t know. If he stays on, you know what kind of man he is, so don’t expect any justice. To hell with 1Malaysia!

  19. #19 by cseng on Wednesday, 9 September 2009 - 9:58 pm

    We all know what is the role of MACC under BN goverment. Are they really anti-corruption? or ther are part of corrupted system?. PDRM, MACC even Judisciary, what are their accountabilities? to whom they are accounted for?

    The whole governing system is corrupted, there are structural fault in the system. If the breakdown lies in MACC it self, then it might be repaired. Now is structural error, operating system corrupted, beyond repaired!. For building it has to be demolished, build a one. Harddisk has to be formatted and re-installed with new operating system.

    Interprate this beyond individual, look beyond institution, changing Musa, Ahmad, Zaki would’t help. Changing PDRM to PRDM, MACC to MAPUKI would’t help either. Is the goverment operating system at fault, change goverment, nothing less can restore this. Untill then keep shouting and yelling!.

  20. #20 by Onlooker Politics on Wednesday, 9 September 2009 - 10:32 pm

    In Malaysia, there is an unsettled long delayed Kugan case pending for inquest on the suspected death caused by police brutality!

    And now we find that the Parliament has created another evil monster since January 2009 by the name of MACC. When we find a whole batch of anti-corruption officers who have behaved like hooligans by showing no mercy to the witnesses or suspects when exercising some kinds of cruel and inhumane torture techniques during the interrogation process, we really cannot understand what kind of moral value system which the Malaysian Government Officers of Law Enforcement Unit such as MACC uphold now!

    Did their religion teach them that the witness or suspect of different skin colours should be ill-treated in order to serve the justice purpose? Exactly whose justice do the MACC officers atempt to seek if it is not the justice of God? Did God permit the use of violence and torture (mental or physical) by the anti-corruption officers simply for the purpose of getting a suspect to put his signature on a piece of blank paper? I hope the religious evangelists or preachers can help to provide the answer from God on the right kind of justice and righteousness which the Malaysian people should seek and uphold! The religion will fail its original sacred purpose if it fails to teach the justice and righteousness of God as the core moral value to God’s followers!

  21. #21 by rabbit on Wednesday, 9 September 2009 - 10:50 pm

    MACC should remove… low edu can be officer!! so kidding, i guess their only have SPM in SAP level only!!! well i also wonder.. they must watch to much of NYPD so they can abuse the sucpect!!! off or none video recorded when questioning the sucpect!! lagi cartoon, hahaha

  22. #22 by ktteokt on Wednesday, 9 September 2009 - 10:54 pm

    How can you compare our MACC with the professional ICAC of Hong Kong? They are light years apart! The nuts working in MACC think they are “kings” just like the PDRM guys and they are above the law!

    Good to have this current witness who gives an account of “kisah benar” of his encounter with MACC! Now everyone knows what goes on behind the closed doors on 14th floor of Plaza Masalam!

  23. #23 by ekompute on Thursday, 10 September 2009 - 12:01 am

    Prophesy: GE13, dirtiest general election in Malaysian history. Biggest election fraud to be expected.

    UMNO is living on borrowed time. The end has finally come, election fraud or no election fraud. I still believe that God will punish them one way or another.

  24. #24 by cherasusie on Thursday, 10 September 2009 - 12:25 am

    can someone tell me if a girl is interrogated by these barbarians……… she would look after that?

  25. #25 by monsterballssgoh on Thursday, 10 September 2009 - 12:43 am

    Very tired and completely used up…aged 10 years more.
    Let Onlooker Politics analyse that.
    hi…Onlooker Politics..come to Susan Loone blog…and try your stunts there.
    I have dozens of kopitiam friends there…that love to analyse you too……all young guys…so loving and respectful to me..except few MCA hypocrites
    Win some..loose some….natural…but don’t try to teach grandfathers how to suck eggs…OK?

  26. #26 by monsterballssgoh on Thursday, 10 September 2009 - 12:49 am

    ekompute….God said ..we made that and we must correct things ourselves.
    Just like I tell my children…you make the problems.suffer from that..and make sure…not yo repeat again.
    God will reward all who dares to confront Onlooker PolitIcs…hahahahahahahaha

  27. #27 by GilaPolitic on Thursday, 10 September 2009 - 1:25 am

    How can lowly trained MACC officers compared with the Pro-ICAC officers highly trained in HK ?

    MACC officers are lowly paid salary at range low rank RM2,500 to high senior rank RM9,000 per month.

    ICAC officers are highly paid salary at range low rank minimum HKD15,000 (or RM7,500) to higher rank HKD98,000 (or RM49,000) per month.

    No wonder MACC Officers worked long hours in “HELL and UNDER PRESSURE ” by their greedy BOSSes to get the results from their witnesses and suspects. They were forced to torture the Indian mysterious witness cum suspect, Sivanesan Tanggavelu 22 aged.

    Drawing chicken feed salaries -pity these small MACC cows to face the court music from the inquest of TBH but their Big Bosses escaped it. What a SHAME ?

    Ini lah MACC renamed as
    “Malaysians Against Corrupted Cows”

  28. #28 by GilaPolitic on Thursday, 10 September 2009 - 1:36 am

    Dear Uncle Lim,

    I refer to Walkman’s letter from ICAC above.
    This what I received an replied email letter to ICAC from a friend’s doctor for your reading.
    Any comment from Uncle Lim.

    Dear Ms Audrey WU,
    (for HK Commissioner) Independent Commission Against Corruption (ICAC)

    RE: Your Ref Number : ICAC 502/1 Part 13

    Your reply emailed to Mr CHEW is an excellent letter duly published in the Malaysian Opposition website of Democratic Action Party (DAP), Mr Lim Kit Siang’s blog on 9 Sept 2009. Please read at:

    Many Malaysians especially the IT savvy readers and the bloggers are happy to read your clarification about ICAC good governance, transparent, professionalism and brave in fighting the corruption problems in Hong Kong (HK).

    Unfortunate, we are very shocked to read Malaysian Agency of Corruption Commission (MACC) Chairman, Dato’ Seri Ahmad Said quoted to have said that in the history of the ICAC of HK, there were a total of 11 suicides of suspects and that there was nothing that the ICAC could do about it. His negative statement was widely published in our Malaysian local media and indirectly tarnished the ICAC image in the public eyes of all Malaysians and many foreigners today.

    It looks like and sounds like the ICAC Chinese has worst past track records on corruption death suspects as compared with the recent death witness in MACC here. Malaysians are anger with Datuk Seri Ahmad Said Hamdan and other senior officers for making statements which may be seen as prejudicing the inquest into the death of DAP political aide Teoh Beng Hock in the hands of MACC lately.

    Many senior Malaysians and majority Malay readers are unable to read your truth stories about the actual death suspects and clarification from ICAC because of our local media is controlled and censored by the National Front Party (Barisan Nasional or BN) in Malaysian government.

    Based on the negative statement on ICAC widely published in local Malaysian media has caused very bad image to ICAC and many Malaysians refer to the famous HK movie called ICAC means “I Corrupt All Cops” in HK and the movie potrayed the ICAC officers did tortured their witnesses and suspects in HK crime movie.

    Do you see the ICAC movie in HK ?

    It is indeed a very good true story where the police forces and authorities were badly infected by high corruptions and crimes in late 60’s in HK. Similar, Malaysia is facing the high corrupted politicians in BN government and incresed crime rates in Malaysia as claimed by our ex-PM, Tun Dr Mahathir Mohammed in his past interview in Hard Talk TV, UK.

    Last but not least, we educated Malaysians hope that your ICAC Commissioner should explain and counter defend ICAC integrity and image against the negative statement made by MACC Chairman to indirectly used ICAC sample death cases as a “political scapegoat” to influence the inquest into the death of DAP political aide Teoh BH.

    ICAC should demand an apology from MACC Chairman on his negative statement and let all Malaysians read the “TRUTH” article from ICAC advertisement to be published in Malaysian local media. Do ICAC dare ?

    Appreciate for reading our open positive feedback to ICAC.

    Your ICAC officers and leaders do great jobs and blessing duties to protect HK free from corruptions and crimes today.

    Keep it up !! – SYABAS ! GOD blessing always.

    We love visiting Hong Kong Disneyland and her beautiful island.

    Thank you – Happy 999 today.

    Yours sincerely,
    Dr Arvin Yeong Ah Fatt, Prof Cliff Tan Seng Khor, Dr John Claymen,
    Snr Ir Abu Syed Abu & Prof Dr David Ranachandran
    Multiracial Pro-Malaysians

  29. #29 by ekompute on Thursday, 10 September 2009 - 3:51 am

    monsterballssgoh :
    God will reward all who dares to confront Onlooker PolitIcs…hahahahahahahaha

    Here, we are fighting for justice and fairness which includes the freedom of expression… but there are some participants who are more oppressive than UMNO, LOL.

  30. #30 by taiking on Thursday, 10 September 2009 - 8:24 am

    If the same query by walkman was directed at macc instead wot sort of ans would he get?

    No guesses needed i believe. It will be


    Umno’s standard ans to all questions.

  31. #31 by Jeffrey on Thursday, 10 September 2009 - 9:47 am

    The assistant manager of a Kuantan-based company Sivanesan Tanggavel recounted how he was tortured during interrogation – see

    Onlooker asked, “did their religion teach them that the witness or suspect of different skin colours should be ill-treated in order to serve the justice purpose?” Is 3rd degree method of interrogation influenced by skin colours?

    It does not seem so if you believe an UMNO Maran division committee member Halimi Kamaruzzaman’s allegations of being abused and tortured during investigation. According to him, three MACC officers had punched him in the head, stomach and shoulder. He also claimed that he was kicked in the ribs and knee. “I was also forced to strip naked, lie and roll on the floor. An officer choked me against the wall. They threatened me that my wife would also be arrested and be asked to strip if I did not agree to make a confession that I handed money to Umno members,” said Halimi in the police report.

    Abuse by torture interrogation abhors civilised standards. It makes “confession” suspect as to veracity.

    Basically it involves the age old question of whether the Ends justify the Means.

    Civil Society takes the position that Means – torture – is uncivilized. It cannot be justified under any circumstances, even extenuating. Its use is a reflection of the barbaric values of the society or those who control it. If authorities are not taken to task for using such methods to extract information, thats the end of democracy and beginning of tyranny. Especially when such 3rd degree interrogation is alleged to be extract and procure information that serves the ends of political masters and undermines the opposition. This means that not only are the means deployed indefensible but also the ends themselves are not democratic…. This is easy to resolve because both Means and Ends are bad. What if Means are bad but Ends are Good?

  32. #32 by Jeffrey on Thursday, 10 September 2009 - 9:48 am

    What if there is a terrorist suspect who is suspected to have planted a big bomb somewhere in Kuala Lumpur, the denonation of which, if not discovered within a day or two, will kill hundreds of thousands, and the ends here are to save the lives of hundreds of thousands? Supposing humane interrogation methods or methods using clever questioning, or exerting psychological pressure have not proven effective at all to breakdown this hardened suspect, and the clock is ticking and many lives at stake? Interrogators are reminded that Malaysia did not sign the United Nations Convention Against Torture.

    Will the ends justify the means? Should interrogators beat him, cane his genitals, use mind-altering drugs, and if the suspect were a female, threaten to unleash dogs trained to rape her??

    On this age old question of whether the Ends justify the Means –

    1. most would agree whether the particulars Means adopted by themselves are Ok or barbaric and unacceptable.

    2. It is difficult to get consensus as regards whether the Ends to be served are desirable

    3. but supposing all are agreed that the Ends are desirable (saving of many lives in the bomber case) are bad Means of torture, ostensibly to avert the disaster justified?

    4. In local context, should MACC interrogators use torture methods to interrogate for example those suspected to have caused the RM12.5 billion PKFZ Scandal??? What about whether Police interrogators (investigationg a MACC officer on Teoh Beng Hock’s mysterious death) – are the police investigators justified (tit-for-tat) to use torture methods on this suspect, a MACC officer, to get to the bottom of whether that MACC officer had used such methods on Teoh???

    I know what’s stated in 4. will not happen. It is hypothetical to bring to sharp focus the complexities of ethical issues involved in the age old philosophical argument about whether Ends justify the Means.

  33. #33 by k1980 on Thursday, 10 September 2009 - 10:56 am

    Remember the thousands upon thousands of unemployable Arts grads with no skills highlighted in the mass media a couple of years ago? I bet they all have been absorbed into the macc

  34. #34 by OrangRojak on Thursday, 10 September 2009 - 11:47 am

    saving of many lives
    You must not be reading the press! This is already the excuse being used. ‘Security’ and ‘harmony’ protects 25 million people from a fate that cannot be accurately described.

    The US and UK did the same thing with Iraq. “We don’t condone violence”. “I heard they have WMDs”. “BOMB THE BASSSTTTTAAAARRRRDDDDDDSSSS!”. Whose violence is better?

    On bad days I wish those governments had said “they’re being very naughty, we’ll just bomb them a bit. It’s not good, but we’ll have a big parade in the capital after, with some wreath-laying and sincere camera angles. Nations need to vent their anger too, you know?” On bad days, I could almost respect a government that behaved that way. Almost. On any other day, all violence seems to have the same effect – more violence, and an erosion of the ‘security’ I’m alleged to enjoy.

    This is an easy one Jeffrey – nothing justifies torture. If the only cure for violence is more violence, I think I would rather die at the hands of someone whose salary isn’t paid by my tax.

  35. #35 by ktteokt on Thursday, 10 September 2009 - 1:06 pm

    I think more people like this mysterious witness should come out and tell the truth of their encounters with MACC. That way, MACC cannot deny having tortured Teoh who was just a WITNESS!

  36. #36 by Jeffrey on Thursday, 10 September 2009 - 1:20 pm

    “…nothing justifies torture…” – 0rangRojak

    That is a value judgment just like there are others who may hold the view that certain instances – as when society is in imminent danger from criminals/terrorists – may justify so.

    It is not easy to argue on value judgments.

    In a free society these methods are supposedly incompatible with its values and are deplored and condemned allowing no exceptions.

    However society is also concerned with its own safety.

    It has to juggle between imperatives of civil and human rights on one hand and security/safety of society on the other.

    I speculate security services world over use 3rd degree interrogation methods (varying from one society to another, in degree, forms and depending on circumstances) to extract vital intelligence and extort confessions (of both guilty as well as innocent).

    Where such tactics have resulted in abuse and miscarriage and perversion of the truth, there is, in comparatively free societies, bound to be a huge hue and cry of civil liberties violated and demands for accountability.

    Where such tactics have served “good and desirable” ends of averting imminent danger from terrorists and criminals, they are not publicised. No apology is made for such instances.

    We will never know how many of such cases which brought about a desirable end which a given society will choose to forget that these tactics have been used, and used successfully to protect the society and keep it harmless from some major catastrophe.

  37. #37 by ekompute on Thursday, 10 September 2009 - 1:24 pm

    Torture for RM124, while those who take billions are invited to MACC with high tea provided?

  38. #38 by OrangRojak on Thursday, 10 September 2009 - 1:47 pm

    It is not easy to argue
    If only! ;-b
    We will never know
    … are you warning me of the dangers of disrespecting Santa Claus? I can’t argue with a fantasy.
    I speculate
    I speculate husbands extract vital intelligence concerning cuckoldry from their wives using the same methods. And in my house jiejie (3 1/2) extracts the location of didi’s (18 months) hidden toys using the same methods.

    Whatever the conjectured benefit of the technique, the technique itself should be strictly illegal for the vast majority (and I speculate the entirety) of cases will be where it is used gratuitously, oppressively or solely for the perceived advantage of the perpetrator.

    If a torturer can plead ‘greater good’, let her do it from the dock. If the torturer’s ‘value judgement’ has merit, I will gladly accept it on an individual basis, as I hope a reasonable judge would. If you believe that those in power should be allowed to commit the occasional covert crime against those in their power, I wonder how you sleep at night!

  39. #39 by Jeffrey on Thursday, 10 September 2009 - 2:24 pm

    “used gratuitously, oppressively or solely for the perceived advantage of the perpetrator” – it is always perceived advantage not of the perpetrator but for the wider benefit or safety of society (true or not true) but if true, we’ll never see them justifying it from the dock.

    “If you believe that those in power should be allowed to commit the occasional covert crime against those in their power, I wonder how you sleep at night!”

    I am not saying here or have I ever said that I believe those in power should be allowed to commit the occasional covert crime.

    I am just saying that I suspect it happens rampantly not just here but world wide (perpetrated by the security appratus of the state) even in those so called democratic countries.

    That this is so relects hypocrisy of larger society that openly denounces such acts, and yet – when juggling between imperatives of civil and human rights on one hand and security/safety of society on the other where both are important and yet in conflict – and
    pretend that they are not perpetrated in other cases where its safety from terrorists or criminals is at stake and in imminent danger.

  40. #40 by Jeffrey on Thursday, 10 September 2009 - 2:26 pm

    Sorry typo corrections – “..Nor have I ever said…” “That this is so Relects hypocrisy…”

  41. #41 by Jeffrey on Thursday, 10 September 2009 - 2:27 pm

    Oops – “..Reflects…”

  42. #42 by OrangRojak on Thursday, 10 September 2009 - 4:40 pm

    I suspect it happens rampantly … in those so called democratic countries
    In my so called democratic home country, you can read about it in the newspapers and watch documentaries about it on TV – for now. It’s not quite as good as it not happening at all, but I’m not quite the ‘blur blur’ idealist I might sometimes be forced to take the side of in arguments.

    Just because some acts are against the law, it doesn’t mean those acts don’t happen. They have to remain against the law for the occasions when ‘expediency’ transpires to be an error. I’m sure it’s as illegal to blow up whale-watchers’ ships without consent in France as it is in New Zealand – what impediment was that to the French? In the UK it’s illegal to blow the head off underground train passengers on their way to work, even if they have overstayed their visas. I don’t think the government employees who do those things suffer much adverse effect from the law, but that doesn’t mean whale-watchers or plumbers (or was he an electrician?) would prefer a law that says “no killing unless it’s necessary” – just because then the law would more accurately reflect the status quo!

    “No hurting people’ gives me a cosy feeling. “Only a bit of torturing, if we have to” does not. If I’m killed by my own government, I would prefer they got off Scot-free for it after a bruising and well-publicised court case than that they dismissed my death with “ya, people die”.

    I’m not sure that you “Nor have I ever said”. You allude to

    Where such tactics have served “good and desirable” ends

    as though there are such beneficial situations, when I’m unaware of one. I only know a very limited number of facts, so I’d be delighted – as ever – if you could disabuse me. If I could follow your even-handed approach to the argument where you balance an apparent cost against a conjectured benefit, well … I might even buy insurance from you!

    If you want to call any other nation’s government ‘hypocritical’, or even the people who voted for them, go right ahead – that’s what I do to with the government of the country that issues my passport. I wish we didn’t have to defend a position on these miserable issues – that’s part of life’s rich tapestry, I suppose.

  43. #43 by Onlooker Politics on Thursday, 10 September 2009 - 9:33 pm

    I see that you have been spending a lot of time trying to teach us that “sometimes the ends do really justify the means!”

    However, you fail to address the core issue which has been raised up by ICAC’s reply to Mr Chew (refer to comment #1 posted by walkman), that is, whether the power of MACC has been restrained by an effective system of checks and balances!

    You may be able to justify your claim that “the ends do sometimes justify the means, especially in the event that the individual civil liberties and basic human rights have to give way to 3rd degree torture or violence when dealing with terrorism, for the sake of greater good of the overall society!” However, the core issue here is whether there is a fool-proof system in existence which can effectively put check to the abuse of MACC power by an officer with personal malicious intent and to balance off the danger of having the excessive force being used by MACC officers on a witness or a suspect in order to prevent the happening of extra-judicial killing in MACC!

    Jeffrey, extra-judicial killing is prohibited by God. Teoh Beng Hock did not deserve a sudden death in the compound of MACC building. Let me bring you to do a revision on the biblical study on the story of the curse and mark of Cain so that you may always remember that God does not agree to punish even a murderer with death punishment!

    The following is an excerpt from wikipedia:

    The Bible refers to the curse of Cain in the fourth chapter of the Book of Genesis. This passage describes two brothers, Cain and Abel. Cain, the older, “was a tiller of the ground”, while Abel “was a keeper of sheep” (Gen. 4:2). Eventually, each of the brothers performed a sacrifice to God; Cain sacrificed some of his crops to God, while Abel sacrificed “of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof” (Gen. 4:3–4). When God accepted Abel’s offering, but not Cain’s, Cain’s “countenance fell” (Gen. 4:5), and he “rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him” (Gen. 4:8).

    When God confronted Cain about Abel’s death, God cursed him, saying:

    “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground. Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth.” (Gen. 4:10–12)

    As an act of irony, the curse by God focused strictly on neutralizing the benefits of Cain’s primary skill, cultivating crops. When Cain complained that the curse was too strong, and that anyone who found him would kill him, God responded, “Not so; if anyone kills Cain, he will suffer vengeance seven times over”, and God “set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him” (Gen. 4:15).

  44. #44 by Taxidriver on Thursday, 10 September 2009 - 9:36 pm

    ”Mysterious witness took stand at TBH inquest”-LKY

    In what way mysterious? You mean like the 2 UTK pooh-lis officers who had a sarong wrapped over their heads throughout Aminah’s murder trial so until now none of the rakyat knows who they are? BTW where are the 2 guys now?

  45. #45 by bennylohstocks on Thursday, 10 September 2009 - 10:57 pm

  46. #46 by Jeffrey on Friday, 11 September 2009 - 12:16 am

    Onlooker Politics, what I said was that world wide – and not just here – resort to 3rd degree methods.

    I am just making an observation of what happens – this “ends justify the means” attitude (esp where there’s consensus that the ends are desirable and good).

    I did not say that torture/3rd degree tactics should be adopted, much less that the MACC was justified to use such tactics in interrogation or in TBH’s case .

    I acknowledge the difficulty of drawing the line and defining what qualifications when the ends would justify the means or when in other occasions when the ends would not so justify….which difficulty is probably self explanatory about why in many societies, even reputedly democratic ones are ambivalent – and hypocritical – about the issue, condemning such tactics in certain cases where such tactics are galring examples of abuse of power, miscarriage of justice and perversion of the truth, whilst in other cases of averting an imminent danger (as the case of the bomber cited) pretending that such tactics have not been used to avert it.

    As I have been construed to say things that I did not, I must conclude that there must be something unclear and faulty in the manner I expressed myself.

  47. #47 by Jeffrey on Friday, 11 September 2009 - 1:51 am

    ///Let me bring you to do a revision on the biblical study on the story of the curse and mark of Cain so that you may always remember that God does not agree to punish even a murderer with death punishment!/// – Onlooker Politics, September 10th, 2009 21:33

    Respectfully, is this not selective interpretation?

    Well how do you reconcile your interpretation -that God does not agree to punish even a murderer with death –
    against God’s slewing of Er, Judah’s firstborn for being wicked in the sight of the LORD as well as the other son Onan being slewed by God for refusing to fulfill his familial responsibility – Genesis 38:3-10)???

    See –

    I refer to this part – “And Judah said to Onan, “Go in to your brother’s wife and marry her, and raise up an heir to your brother.” But Onan knew that the heir would not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in to his brother’s wife, that he emitted on the ground, lest he should give an heir to his brother. And the thing which he did displeased the LORD; therefore He killed him also.”

    Don’t you think that what Onan did (ie emitted on the ground) was certainly a lesser offence than murder but yet God punished him by death?

  48. #48 by Jeffrey on Friday, 11 September 2009 - 2:07 am

    FYI “he emitted on the ground” means Onan ejaculated outside and not inside his brother’s wife, so not conception of a heir was possible…..Since biblical times until now, I think we can surely agree that coitus interruptus has never been a greater or more henious offence than murder for the latter to be not punishable for death but the former (coitus interruptus) to be….What is your response to this?

  49. #49 by Jaswant on Friday, 11 September 2009 - 7:58 am

    “Teoh Beng Hock did not deserve a sudden death in the compound of MACC building.” Onlooker Politics

    So a slow death would be acceptable to you??

  50. #50 by OrangRojak on Friday, 11 September 2009 - 12:15 pm

    [deleted my own tediously long post]
    I don’t think Jeffrey was advocating any part of the spectrum of attitudes towards torture. What caused me to ejaculate was the apparent even-handedness of an exposition that balanced the concrete (it hurts) against the alleged (it saves lives). I worry that extending the imaginary arm of the scale moves the ‘balanced’ view away from my (admittedly) preferred end.

    I didn’t mean to argue, only to nit-pick. I’m sorry if I confused things.

  51. #51 by Jeffrey on Friday, 11 September 2009 - 12:36 pm

    ///What caused me to ejaculate…///

    The choice of word “ejaculate” could have something to do with what Onan done but at the wrong place incurring displeasure of the Lord. :)

  52. #52 by cinaindiamelayubersatu on Friday, 11 September 2009 - 4:44 pm

    macc umno punya hinggakan anak toyol pun takut
    polis umno punya
    ag umno punya
    yang lain lain siap kau
    yang pendatang siap kau
    dengan lembu lembu aku pijak aku ludah

  53. #53 by Onlooker Politics on Friday, 11 September 2009 - 9:12 pm

    “Since biblical times until now, I think we can surely agree that coitus interruptus has never been a greater or more henious offence than murder for the latter to be not punishable for death but the former (coitus interruptus) to be….What is your response to this?” (Jeffrey)

    I am not a theologian. I may be biblically inaccurate to say that “God does not agree to punish even a murderer with death punishment!”

    The Old Testament of the Bible has several passages that recommend the death penalty for different offenses. The term “put to death” or similar explicit terms which we found in the Old Testament are usually used in commands mandating capital punishment, though the term “cut off from his people” (Lev. 17:4, etc.) may also denote such, and which would increase the number of capital offenses.

    However, we could also find that the Old Testament had set some conditions necessary for true conviction:

    “At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.” (Deuteronomy 17:6; cf. Exodus 20:16)

    In addition to the conditions of requiring two or three witnesses in order to qualify a conviction, the Old Testament had also set some requirements for Judges:

    Lev 19:15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

    In short, even if the MACC officers were to possess good evidences to make believe that a suspect had already committed a capital offense, the MACC officers had no right to drop judgement nor have they any rights to execute any form of lagal sentence (including 3rd degree torture) or death punishment unto a suspect! The MACC officers can only serve best in the role of an investigator. The MACC officers can never enjoy the full authority to appoint themselves as a player of these three roles at the meantime, namely an investigator, a prosecutor, and a judge. Obviously, to embrace or to entice someone into playing the triple roles of investigator, prosecutor and judge in the process of interrogating an alleged crimminal will surely violated the cardinal principle of requiring a duty performer to avoid any conflict of interest when performing one’s official duty.

    The story of the curse and the mark made by God on the biblically recorded first murderer, Cain, was an indication that God was the initiator of a system of checks and balances. When God made such a promise of not killing Cain by saying “Not so; if anyone kills Cain, he will suffer vengeance seven times over”, God Hinself indeed had made a Law to provide deterrence on the common man in order to protect Cain from being killed by the common man. Such a law was indeed an example of a system of checks and balances which, of course, has instituted that God be sat in the high position to serve as the arbiter!

    Of course, I always think that an MACC officer is nothing more than a common man who is not given any legal rights to execute extra-judicial killing on a witness or a suspect!

  54. #54 by Jeffrey on Friday, 11 September 2009 - 11:31 pm

    Onlooker, so far if one discounts TBH committed suicide as impossible, it only means that he had been pushed/thrown/dropped out by unidentified others from 14th floor of MACC precincts.

    This could happen in two cases:

    1. he was dangled out of the window as part of the 3rd degree torture interrogation methods and accidentally dropped (due to struggle) or

    2. someone deliberately pushed him out to kill him…. a party having motive to silence him.

    In the case of 1. above it is not extra-judicial killing or execution because extra-judicial killing or execution is deliberate and never accidental;

    In the case of 2. MACC itself has no motive if you believe it wants to investigate and implicate Pakatan rakyat politicians in corrupt acts. This is because TBH, alive, would be a crucial key witness for MACC’s agenda, dead, serves no purpose except to bring all kinds of suspicions unto MACC!

    Which between 1. or 2. is more probable?

    If 1. it should be at the time of interrogation, in midst of it, when accident could happen.

    But we know interrogation ended at 3.30am – and he died much later after 6 am. Why didn’t he leave immediately after interrogation ended? Surely he had no reason to linger longer – unless there’s some unfinished business. What would that be? Would it suggest that he was cooperating in some measure with MACC. I agree this is speculation. We don’t yet know why he stayed behind after interrogation ended at 3.30 am. Did he stay behind because he was waiting for some report to be prepared for him to sign? It was possible. If it were possible, then what would he say in that report, and who would he implicate in that report for that someone to have a motive to bear him harm and stop him from being witness?

  55. #55 by Onlooker Politics on Saturday, 12 September 2009 - 1:24 am

    “But we know interrogation ended at 3.30am – and he died much later after 6 am. Why didn’t he leave immediately after interrogation ended? Surely he had no reason to linger longer – unless there’s some unfinished business. What would that be? Would it suggest that he was cooperating in some measure with MACC.” (Jeffrey)

    You only listened to one side’s story so far and you began to make so much lope-sided speculation. Based on my personal experience from a police detention and interrogation, I could also make the following speculation in order to explain off the questions being raised in your speculation.

    Assume that the interrogation really ended at 3.30am. However, even after the end of interrogation process at 3.30am, TBH could not leave MACC Building because he might be told, “We have already done with your interrogation but you need to put some words in a cautioned statement in front of the investigating officer (IO) in charge. But the IO will be in only after 8.00am. You can take back your personal belongings only after 8.00 am after the IO officer agrees to release you and make you sign a paper that is an acknowlegement of receipt. I have to go back and sleep now. If you want to sleep, you may sleep in the pantry area but don’t block the walkway!”

    At 7.30 am, an early bird MACC officer came in and saw TBH lying at the sofa of the pantry. Unfortunately, this MACC officer is a racist, a Chinese hater, a hardcore follower of the occultic belief of the idol worship of “Ketuanan Melayu” idolatry! He shouted at TBH, “Hey, hey, apa dua pikim dekat sini! Ini pejabat Orang Melayu, engkau tau tak? Mana boleh engkau tidur di atas sofa yang hanya Orang Melayu saja yang boleh tidur? Gua mau duduk! Bangun! Bangun! Cepat bangun! Nanti gua hentam lu, lu baru tau!”

    TBH, “Mau hentam, hentam la! Lu pikir sofa ini awak punya bapa punya ka?”

    MACC racist, “Kurang ajar! Kenapa tak panggil gua ‘tuan’ bila mau cakap! Keluar! Cepat Keluar!”

    TBH, “Tuan apa la, saya barulah ‘tuan’! Saya tuan yang bekerja dengan Kerajaan Negeri, awak tau tak?”

    MACC racist, “Anjing Pakatan Rakyat! pergi mati la!”

    “Ahhhh…………..Poommmmmmmmmm….. ”

    Let me make it clear here. The above speculation is simply my speculation! It could be right, but it could also be wrong! However, this could be another side of the story! Do you get it now, Jeffrey!

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