[News Flash 2 at 10.02 am: A few minutes ago, a woman participant went up to the floor mike defending the forum, but was met by shouts by protestors demanding the immediate end of the forum – forcing Bar Council President Ambiga Sreenevasan to announce its closure.]
[Flash – Just informed that police accompanied a few of the protestors into the forum to observe proceedings, five minutes before the forum is to have abrupt end at 10 am.]
The Bar Council half-day forum on conversion to Islam is going on now at its auditorium in Kuala Lumpur – in the face of a crowd of protestors outside bearing slogans and chanting Arabic verses and demanding the immediate cancellation of the forum.
It is a test whether Malaysia is shaping up to be a more civil society where sensitive issues of inter-faith problems can be discussed in a mature and responsible manner to promote national unity and religious harmony in the country.
The Police wants the forum to end by 10 am because of the protests.
As stated by the Bar Council Vice President Ragunath Kesavan, the Bar Council forum on religious conversion is to address the conflicts of laws facing families caught between the separate jurisdictions of civil and syariah laws.
It is not to question the provisions of Article 121(1a) of the Constitution, which conferred syariah jurisdiction over Muslims.
This is the New Straits Times report today on Ragunathan explanation:
While recognising and respecting Article 121(1a), Ragunath said it was unjust to compel anyone to be subjected to laws and courts based on a religion that the person did not profess.
He said the council was “troubled” by the continuing calls from certain quarters that the forum be cancelled.
Claims that the forum would create misunderstanding, anger and tension were in stark contrast with the government’s assurances of more dialogue, Ragunath said.
“The forum is not about conversion per se as the council endorses the absolute right of individuals to embrace Islam.
“Instead, the forum will address the ancillary issues that arise from such situations and will emphasise the need for laws, and a judicial system, that protects everyone equally.
“It is the continued suppression of open and respectful discourse, not public forums, that will cause tension and jeopardise national unity.
“We are taking the necessary precautions to ensure that the dialogue takes place in a controlled and constructive manner, by holding the forum in a closed setting and requiring participants to register for the event.”
I have received the following SMSes from CC Goh who is at the forum:
“The crowd came forward across again. Demanding Ambiga to go down. Shouting louder. Inside a testimony about conversion of a father by the daughter.”
“The crowd continues to chant slogan. Not trying to breach police line.”
“Ambiga just came up to say police ask to wrap up by 10 because of security reason.”
Hope the Bar Council forum will not end up as another APCET II 12 years ago in November 1996.
#1 by swee_ann_tweety on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 9:44 am
we are civilised enough to hold these sort of discussions
#2 by izrafeil on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 9:55 am
What would Prophet Muhammad do? (WWMD). I am sure if he is alive today, he would engage this sort of discussion…. Islam is a great religion, Islam is the truth and the truth is not dissipated by engaging in discussions.
#3 by blablowbla on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 9:56 am
infact,this is the best time for the UMNO leaders to “perform”,they will threaten n shout “jangan cuba cabar kami……”,maybe becoming a racist hero,wil let thm be voted as PEMIMPIN,tat’s why UMNO is full of these bigots!
come-on,far-sighted a little-bit,malaysia will prosper!otherwise,ask your MCA members,wat is “TAIKA LAM JI YET CAI SEI!”
#4 by izrafeil on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 9:57 am
Are we Malaysian Muslim having low self esteem as to not allowing discussion?
#5 by Freddy on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 10:07 am
Malaysia is definitely NOT matured enough to publicly discuss religion.
As a gauge, why not discuss the wanton wastage of money in burning hell notes besides the air pollution created in this ongoing Hungry Ghost Festival? I believe that a lot of Chinese might be offended too.
I came across a blog by one of DAP reps criticizing the abovementioned and the rep continued to ask why and how it is possible when they, at the same time, complain about the downturn in economy!! Anyway, that posting has been removed.
#6 by taiking on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 10:12 am
Religions have no sensitivities.
Humans have.
The protest is by humans.
It has nothing to do with the religion.
As a matter of sense how could religion protest?
Except by humans in the name of religion.
But unfortunately, the protest gives the religion a bad name.
A bad impression.
And an ugly image when it goes waywards.
What is wrong about discussing religion?
Cant people talk about it?
There can be no sensible justification to say no to these questions.
Not in this day and age.
Not in a country shared by a significant number of non-muslims.
#7 by malaysia-united on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 10:25 am
Protestor said this forum will create misunderstanding, anger and tension. Actually who is creating it? If religion can’t be discuss, power transition can’t be discuss, NEP can’t be discuss, keistimewaan can’t be discuss, corruption can’t be discuss, then what else can we discuss?
The anger and tension between the none muslim or muslim are cause by misunderstanding, and misunderstanding is cause by lack of communication.
#8 by Bigjoe on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 10:27 am
300 people and the cops decide that the forum is a ‘threat’? What happened to the 10,000? You wonder why they are going after Anwar? Hindraf brought out 10,000 and you don’t see the cops agreeing to their agenda????
300 people and its about the NEP and overgrown bullies who can’t live without politics feeding their greed and personal agenda.
#9 by wanderer on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 10:40 am
“I listen to things only when they music my my ears, otherwise, no discussion!” Typical of Umno mentality and a certain section of our Malaysian community.
Domocracy in this country, a long way to go!
#10 by Wisdom above on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 10:50 am
Can we have the forum discussed online ?
Good topic for enhancing legal understanding and knowledge .
More people from Malaysia and overseas can participate as well.
It helps in understanding the legal aspects of the ‘Forum on Conversion’.
#11 by Saint on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 10:50 am
Islam is nearly 1.400 years old, and its followers behave as such.
The followers of this religion have not improved intellectually.
If there is a problem; how can one solve it without discussions?
Does Islam forbid discussions?
Where is the “peace” in Islam as preached?
Where is the tolerance and understanding it preaches?
Can Islam only solve problems by creating war?
Is Islam wrong or Muslims as humans are wrong.
What would the prophets say if they were alive today; to their followers.
Make war or talk peace.
#12 by drngsc on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 10:53 am
A sad day again.
Almost first world infra-structure. Obviously third world mentality. Looks like we all know who is behind these protests.
#13 by doremi on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 10:53 am
Leopard never change their skin:
‘Among the protest leaders seen in the crowd are PAS Youth chief Salahuddin Ayub and PKR Kulim-Bandar Baharu parliamentarian Zulkifli Noordin.’ – Malaysiakini [300 protest against Bar’s ‘conversion’ forum]
Only savage need to physically stop a forum. And civilised men do not play God.
#14 by drmaharajahrk on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 11:02 am
beautiful slogans alone dont make a religion
practice what u preach
#15 by jus legitimum on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 11:06 am
Talking about offending the chinese if the burning of hell notes during the hungry ghost festival is condemned,I absolutely disagree.This superstitious practice is obsolete and is only carried out by very old and mainly uneducated people.The chinese community in Malaysia are quite liberal when come to religion.Many are free thinkers and atheists.We do not bother about belief in God but we embrace Confucianism.We uphold filial piety,respect elders,love our siblings,be harmonious with our friends and neighbours.We are definitely unlike the religious fanatics,the extremists and the bigots who can’t even allow a civil discussion on the problems created by their religion and have caused untold misery to the converts.
#16 by melurian on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 11:13 am
remind me religion takes control in japan old feudal days –
“There are three things that I have absolutely no power upon,” Emperor Go-Shirakawa said in 1170’s; “1. dice, 2. the flow of the river Gamo, 3. warrior-monks of Mount Hiei.”
until one daimyo standout against them:
“I can’t take this,” he said to Toyotomi Hideyoshi and Akechi Mitsuhide, after the siege of Mt. Hiei had been going on in vain for nearly a month. “The warrior-monks are taking shelter behind the privileges that their forefathers have earned, but which they never even care to substantiate. My enemy is not this mountain. It’s not Buddhism, it’s not Buddha. It is the privileges that these people are taking for granted, and the way they set themselves against me. If I don’t do it, no one will ever do, and from one generation to another we’ll still get killed by these monks. Get ready for a fire attack. Spare no one. And I mean no one. Hunt them all down and burn their lair. Then maybe the blaze will purify the religion anew.”
src: http://www.geocities.com/azuchiwind/monks.htm
…..
#17 by gundam on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 11:15 am
it wasn’t islam’s fault, it was the muslim believers here.
#18 by drmaharajahrk on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 11:21 am
how can one say it is “a way of life” when followers dont behave like it is a way of life ? is protesting and behaving like barbarians a “way of life ” ?
beautiful slogans alone dont make a religion, practice what u preach…….
#19 by yhsiew on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 11:21 am
The Bar Council could have amended the title of discussion to make it less sensitive while preserving the contents for the discussion.
#20 by lhslhv on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 11:22 am
Great religion comes with great people.
There may be light (great religion) but no eyes (people) to see, it is useless.
You may have eyes (people), but no light (great religion) for you to see. It is similarly useless.
Greatness of a religion is a reflection of its great followers not hyprocrites. It is the followers that make the religion stinks.
#21 by Samuel Goh Kim Eng on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 11:34 am
Why should some people be afraid of legal, intellectual discourse
Only harbouring the potential fear that everything will go off course
When there are those who seek answers as a matter of grave cause
Let closed caves be left behind for those who desire to be off clause
(C) Samuel Goh Kim Eng – 090808
http://MotivationInMotion.blogspot.com
Sat. 9th Aug. 2008.
#22 by restek on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 11:36 am
How ironic to read about a mob of three hundred peple from a religion of peace forced an early close of a peaceful discussion.Perhaps to continue calling the religion, a religion of peace ,would be an oxymoron
#23 by Kathy on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 11:39 am
Restek, u must understand that they are being misled by certain groups of people for so many years.
Islam is a religion of peace, it is only the people that so-call profess it and makes trouble that is making it oxymoron.
#24 by Samuel Goh Kim Eng on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 11:40 am
The Lord above knows what’s happening down below
He even knows exactly how the hot wind will blow
After he has seen what human beings want to show
He will make sure that his love for all will grow
(C) Samuel Goh Kim Eng – 090808
http://MotivationInMotion.blogspot.com
Sat. 9th Aug. 2008.
#25 by melurian on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 11:41 am
“The Lord above knows what’s happening down below”
too bad, they’re believe in islam and not christians……
#26 by taiking on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 11:51 am
If I have a certain perverted misconception about islam and am not allowed to discuss it, then no one would ever have a chance to correct me. I would certainly end up not knowing how wrong my idea was.
And worse, I would infect people around me, those who are receptive to my ideas, with the wrong impression of the religion. I would also pass the same wrong impression on to to my children. And likewise they would relate the same thing – or more likely a distorted or expanded version – on to others.
Through this crude and imprecise magnification, a little misconception would then be blown into a misconception of unthinkable proportion with indeterminable impact and consequences.
This argument is so basic and obvious that I actually felt silly expressing it. But I decided to express it anyway because it appears to me that the protestors lacked the necessary faculty to grasp that which is so basic and obvious. I would like to believe that they are really the vocal minority of muslims in the country.
#27 by drmaharajahrk on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 11:54 am
this PAS president should have attended the Forum and allayed any misconception of Islam there.
Instead PAS incites racial hatred……
PAS is better off with UMNO
#28 by dr suresh kumar on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 11:55 am
This forum is deemed too sensitve by the those muslim protestors in the same breath those families who had their loved ones body snatched away is deemed what?Most of the time the syariah court is deciding on matters concerning apostasy and conversion,I feel it is one-sided verdict.We live in a democratic world,we as individuals should have the right to choose what religion we want to follow and no body has the right to force upon another wth regards to what faith one should follow.This is the problem caused by islam which I opine as a political doctrine which imposes it self by force.When you try to impose your faith by force on others,there will be a equal and opposite reaction.
These protestors are are definitely people who are of a narrow mind and immature.Aren’t they aware that the PM himself had recently called for more inter faith dialogues to be organized?I have nothing against the teachings of Islam,but certainly many of the people who follow this faith are not truly living to its teachings,most of them are just mere hypocrites.This zero tolerance and lack of recpect for other faiths had brought about so much of pain and injustice to others who dont profess islam.
Today we can see so many muslim nations in the world are not peaceful,unfortunate though.But they have only themselves to blame for all those destruction and carnage as they have failed to understand the true nature of islam yet wish to impose their ideology on others.They be must told in the strongest possible term that by imposing force they are creating more hatred and ill-feelings along the way.Therefore inter-faith dialogues and forums can help ease tensions esp in a multi-religious country like Malaysia.
Therefore I call upon our muslim brothers and sisters to be magnanimous enough and hear out what the non-muslims feel too and let us also speak out in a peaceful manner.
#29 by Jeffrey on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 11:57 am
If the Bar Council were permitted by the authorities to conduct the Interfaith Forum half day, it means the forum and gathering is lawful, which then suggests that those who would want to disrupt and force it to stop (“protesters” are acting unlawfully. Hence it would be duty of law enforcement officers to prevail on protestors to disperse so that the lawful assembly may proceed to its conclusion at scheduled half days time. Here “police accompanied a few of the protestors into the forum to observe proceedings five minutes before the forum is to have abrupt end at 10 am” at police request. So what does it suggest? Are authorities on the side of those in Bar Council who abide by the law or those protesters infringing it?
#30 by izrafeil on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 12:00 pm
Jeffrey,
Very sharp analysis….
Were u trained as logician? I am impressed with your comments.
#31 by nafasbaru on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 12:00 pm
how can there be understanding if discussions are forbidden ????
how can there be harmony without an exchange of views ????
hold talks with corrupt umno on religious issues, boleh.
hold talks with anybody else on religious issues, tak boleh.
#32 by Lee Wang Yen on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 12:00 pm
PAS youth leader participated in the unreasonable and irrational protest. PAS president was critical of the forum.
PAS is still a problem in Pakatan Rakyat. They are religiously fundamentalistic, extremist and racist, and in many ways at loggerheads with the values upheld by Pakatan Rakyat.
It is a shame that DAP and PKR are forced to ally with them due to current political situation. Hopefully Anwar and DAP can further marginalise PAS when the former becomes the prime minister. I mention Anwar rather than PKR because there may be some factions within PKR that still cling on to Malay and/or Islam supremacy.
Regrettably, I can only support DAP, Anwar, and a (section of) PKR which shares his muti-ethnic and multi-religious agenda, and not a PR with PAS in it.
#33 by nafasbaru on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 12:12 pm
does Islam require “protectionist” measures ?????
#34 by just a moment on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 12:14 pm
This is multiracial country and if you live in this country long enough , you know one thing – Islam is only for muslim. No other races let alone religion can utter anything about this Islam stuff.As a little boy, this Islam religion scares the hell out of me, some kind of ‘untouchable’ and highly ‘sterile or toxic’…. . Anyway, it is this sensitive.
I wonder who is responsible in brainwashing our muslim brothers here that Muslim religion must be highly guarded and only muslim are humans, the rest must be something else.
Now, I do have some wonderful muslim friends, they are real nice people however, when it comes to Islam stuff and muslim, you suddenly feel …Wait!! Don’t cross the line!!. Im sure most will know what I mean.
Its sad to know even today, ppl are still behaving like this. When would they ever grow? Someone must enlighten the rest of our Muslim brother. Take it easy mate..ppl ain’t interested to convert muslim just yet and why should they? If muslim happy to be muslim, so be it.
Remember after 911, US says they need to understand this religion called Islam or Moslem more? must be a joke!! This religion is hands-off bro, unless you just sit and listen, no feedbacks, no comment. suggestions? tired of living? This bad eh.
Please lah, we all need to excercise true tolerance – ” no forcing business” and understanding, respect individual preference.Why are these ppl so afraid of? I wonder.
#35 by nafasbaru on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 12:16 pm
I am impressed too, Jeffrey.
again, the police are not what they should be.
#36 by BoycottLocalPapers on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 12:20 pm
Nik Aziz the Tok Guru challenged the Bar Council to have a forum to debate which religion is more logic. But if this is how Muslims are behaving (i.e. behaving like tebuan since Muslim leaders warned non-Muslims to “jangan menjolok sarang tebuan”), then how are we going to debate which religion is more logic?
This conversion law concern all of us non-Muslims. How can we not discuss about it?
I will never trust PAS again. Now I feel regret of saying good thing about PAS.
#37 by alegria on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 12:22 pm
Zulkifli Nordin is the PR MP for Bandar Bahru Kulim and one of Anwar Ibrahim’s strongman. He is the one who is strongly against this forum. His conduct against such forum showed that he is no better than the UMNO goons. He is such a hypocrite.
#38 by drmaharajahrk on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 12:36 pm
so who insults islam ? muslims or non muslims ?
which wld u consider an insult to the religion ?
#39 by lew1328 on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 12:36 pm
Greetings!
Those who are gone to the protest were definitely not representing PR.
They could shout for slogan but why polices stop the meeting? Isn’t because the agenda doesn’t meet their set of standard or they just have not enough Policemen while the other out there to catch robber?
Furthermore, aren’t they drawing salary from “Rakyat”?
I guess it is only a word makes this out — “Bias”!
#40 by Jeffrey on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 12:40 pm
izrafeil nafasbaru, thanks for the kind words :)
I’m just saying what appears common sensical.
No I’m no trained logician – Cambridge’s Lee Lee Wang Yen (posting) at 12: 00.57 (30 minutes ago) above is.
I am glad to see his return to the blog.
#41 by Kasim Amat on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 12:42 pm
Malaysia is a multi-racial society and due to this unique background, public should respect this culture and the Constitution. To ensure all the races can live in harmony, everyone should avoid discussing openly the followings topics:
– Religion’s issue concerning the Muslim;
– Anwar’s case as it is under trial;
– The special rights accorded to Malay under the Constitution and the national policy aimed to help the poorer ethnic group; and
– Any other issue that is sensitive to any of the races
Whoever does not heed the advice will have to bear the consequence.
Even the forum is permitted by authorities, police has a duty to keep the order in place and if they found that the forum has gone too far and provoked racial sensitive issues, they have the rights to demand it to end.
#42 by dawsheng on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 12:43 pm
Wang Yen, PKR and DAP cannot marginalize PAS in PR but the voters can. This issue should not be blown up, not because we are afraid of PAS leaving PR, PAS can leave PR anytime for the sake of Islam and Malay unity. In my opinion the Bar Council, in particular its President, had failed to defend and finish what she started out to accomplish, and that’s typical, isn’t it? It has nothing to do with politics nor benefiting anyone if we politicize about it, the Bar Council at this point, just doesn’t worth it.
#43 by Yee Siew Wah on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 12:44 pm
Islam is a great religion. It is the people who misinterpret to their advantage to satisfy not only their egos but their holier than thou attitude. Look what is happening recently to our country when people are suffering because of religion. WE must have open, frank and meaningful discussions on all religions to move forward as a nation. Discussions held behind the scene or whatever may not solve the issues here. Because at the end of the day nobody knows what have happened in the discussions. This will give the rakyat a negative impression. And most of the time the rakyat do not know what have been done or agreed. This will tend to give the rakyat a negative impression. If by doing this way openly will create tensions, disturbances etc..l then I feel sorry for the rakyat and country. This shows we are still living in the stone age times.
Now is 21s century, come on rakyat, be honest and mature enough to discuss and iron out all issues be it religion, rights etc… openly irrespective. I do not buy the reason our government gave that this will cause tensions and reactions etc…among the rakyat. And it this is the very reason why we are still unable to resolve issues especially like religion because we dare not discuss it openly. In this world of globalisation, either we move forward or we sleep till kingdom comes.
#44 by shortie kiasu on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 12:47 pm
Even though the police had forced the forum to stop prematurely, enough publicity had been generated for people to see, for the world to see too, how fanatics these people who claimed to profess the particular religion in question.
Enough bad publicity where civility of their society is concerned. If we look at the ‘hot-spots’ or troubled spots in the world, somehow they have all to do with a particular religion. That says a lot about the followers, why is that so?
You have the answer.
#45 by limkamput on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 12:49 pm
[Flash – Just informed that police accompanied a few of the protestors into the forum to observe proceedings, five minutes before the forum is to have abrupt end at 10 am.]
Is police taking side? If a forum is conducted peacefully and within a confined area, why the police have allowed the disruption to take place and can’t guarantee the security of those attending the forum. Why can’t the police set up road blocks?
I want to put a hypothetical situation: what if the Muslims are holding a forum and for some reasons the non-Muslims are not happy, can the non-Muslims go there to disrupt the meeting and call for its premature end. Will the police even allow the non Muslims to go near the meeting venue.
Fellows Malaysians – this is the fundamental issue facing Malaysia today – we have two societies separate and unequal. We may not have war right now because one is dominant and the other subservient. But we Malaysians will NEVER have peace if the present mentality persist. Look at Beijing, “one world one dream”. I say my foot Malaysia. Malaysia is filled third world tribal people whose world view is a big as a mosquito’s head. They talk about sensitivity only when it applies to them. Yes my foot and big my a**.
#46 by BoycottLocalPapers on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 12:51 pm
I heard that PAS also wants the government to ban Avril Lavigne’s concert. Is this is how Pakatan Rakyat government going to be, then I’d rather support Barisan Nasional.
A very sad day for Malaysia indeed. One party is racist and another is a religious fanatics. This country is becoming more and more like Pakistan.
We are lucky indeed that the large section of Malay community are not like Pakistani. When that day come, political leaders have to worry about being assasinated like Benazir Bhutto.
51 years “Merdeka” and yet I still feel like being enslaved. Now that Malaysians are allowed to work in Australia for 6 months, I feel like migrating there or go to Singapore.
#47 by AhLiew on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 12:51 pm
Freddy Says:
“As a gauge, why not discuss the wanton wastage of money in burning hell notes besides the air pollution created in this ongoing Hungry Ghost Festival? I believe that a lot of Chinese might be offended too.”
It’s not true. Freddy.
This issue is never a taboo for Chinese. We discuss, and some dispute it, openly on news paper. No tujuk perasaan so far.
# gundam Says:
“it wasn’t islam’s fault, it was the muslim believers here.”
I do not know how many time I heard on this, that Islam is a peace, loving, and open mind loving religion. But I would rather judge a religion by behavior of it’s follower. No matter how beautiful it were written on Quaran, the religion (book, system, organization etc) itself must have some serious flaw to be blamed.
And in Malaysia, who is the best persons to explain what Islam is in the mind of Muslim, if not Pas leader, who gain their popularity through their pursue of Islam?
Say to say this. But truth have it’s own rights.
#48 by Godfather on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 12:52 pm
I’d like to rephrase what the UMNOputra Kasim Amat has just posted:
“To ensure all the races can live in harmony (and to ensure that UMNO can continue to steal in broad daylight), everyone should avoid discussing openly the followings topics:
– Religion’s issue concerning the Muslim;
– Anwar’s case as it is under trial;
– The special rights accorded to Malay under the Constitution and the national policy aimed to help the poorer ethnic group; and
– Any other issue that is sensitive to any of the races
Whoever does not heed the advice will have to bear the consequence.”
The words within brackets are mine. I will bear the consequences of calling UMNO as a bunch of thieves, liars and cheats. They do so in the name of Islam and Malay rights.
#49 by limkamput on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 12:53 pm
sorry repost, mistakes: But we Malaysians will NEVER have peace if the present mentality persists. I say my foot Malaysia. Malaysia is filled third world tribal people whose world view is as big as a mosquito’s head. They talk about sensitivity only when it applies to them. Yes my foot and big my a**.
#50 by dawsheng on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 12:59 pm
Do you all seriously think Muslims will vote PAS and UMNO for an Islamic State? Come on, who is going to give them jobs and feeds their families? Aren’t the situation in the country bad enough to tell the Muslims that religious bigots will only bring them back to dark ages? Can muslims then pray in peace?
Even if an Islamic State is the answer and solution to our country’s woes but are they, PAS and UMNO up to the job? What if their version and interpretation of Malaysia Islamic state failed, when it is most likely the case from the ways these bigots chose to handle things?
#51 by AhPek on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 12:59 pm
It is clearcut that the Police is absulutely partial when it comes to matters dealing with rights of non-Malays who are obviously marginalised and religious matters.You tell me,Mr. Big Police IGP,how come you prepared your police force with water bombs and tear gas when Hindraf has declared publicly that they are going peacefully to present their petition to the British High Commission and not only do nothing when Muslim fanatics warn of tension and anger if a forum by Bar Council on religious conversion addressing the conflicts of laws facing families caught between the separate jurisdictions of civil and syariah laws but also helped them by telling the organiser to end the forum by 10am.How glaringly clear is your participation in siding with the fanatics!! You tell us you can’t deal with the 300 MUSLIMS whereas you don’t find it difficult at all dealing with the 10,000 Hindraf people.Go on, keep spinning to everybody here and world wide that all you are doing is to keep the peace.You are doing a ‘marvellous’ job I must say.
#52 by dawsheng on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 1:05 pm
We have an incompetent Bar Council to start with, if lawyers fought in court and upheld justice according to our constitutional rights, then it will be most unlikely that the non-muslims, converted and vice versa or whatever the case, are facing religious persecution in the court of law.
#53 by AhPek on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 1:05 pm
Correction: “……………………tension and anger if a forum by the Bar Council………………………..separate jurisdictions of civil and syariah laws is to be held but also helped them ……………………………………………………….”.
#54 by justiciary on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 1:12 pm
What is so great about that religion when their followers can kill numerous innocent people around them when they kill themselves by stupidly and selfishly committing suicide bombings?
What is so great about that religion when their followers are national wealth squanderers through abuse of power and corruption?
What is so great about that religion when their followers are hypocrites when they do not practise what they preach?
What is so great about that religion when their followers can be polygamous and shamelessly commit incest?
What is so great about that religion when their followers can plant bombs everywhere and cause bloodshed in many parts of the world?
Just ponder.
#55 by Rose Fashion on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 1:14 pm
Please mind your word, the one called himself “Godfather” in this blog. UMNO can sue you for defamation if they want to and you better bear the consequence when the time comes.
#56 by gofortruth on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 1:17 pm
Police could deal with 10000 Hindraf people but can’t contain 300 muslims – religion in the hands of politician is deadly.
There is a time for everything and this is clearly not the right time to discuss such lest we allow BN a foothold to rock the young PR coalition. Believe me, religious issues will be here for a long time to come. This can wait.
I say better channel every effort to win PP, that, cannot wait!
Bar council, any idea why we hear nothing about Lingam case?
#57 by Lee Wang Yen on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 1:19 pm
Sadly, with UMNO and PAS, we stand between the devil and the deep blue sea.
One is, as Godfather aptly puts it, ‘a bunch of thieves, liars and cheats’, who are openly and unapologetically racist. The other is a bunch of religious fanatics, who have been increasingly revealing their deep-seated racism, as we see in the the so-called Malay-unity talk.
Anwar’s ‘ketuanan rakyat’ and DAP’s ‘Malaysia first’ are our only hope.
By the way, Ezam’s statement of his reasons of leaving PKR and PAS’s betrayal of PR in their unity talk with UMNO have given me more reasons to support Anwar. Anwar seems to have insisted on his policy of racial and religious equality in a way that has offended those who hold on to Malay dominance (e.g. Ezam) and Islamic supremacy. When news about the unity talk broke, PAS was quick to remind Anwar that they were the kingmaker. This shows that PAS must have been very unhappy about the fact that Anwar has marginalised PAS in PR. Given PAS’s extremist position, it is only right for Anwar to marginalise PAS, as this is essential to the upholding of PR’s core values.
#58 by limkamput on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 1:21 pm
Dawsheng,
At least the BAR Council has tried to confront and resolve the issue. Is there any particular political party attempting to do the same? How can you condemn the BAR council for their failure in court. It is whole judiciary system – the judges, the public prosecutors, the religious department, the Parliament and the Constitution, [deleted]
#59 by gundam on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 1:28 pm
dear ahliew,
it is not for us to judge if a religion is good or bad simply based on the act of some confused believers.
there are good followers, there are bad followers in every religion.
there are good people, there are bad people wherever you go.
#60 by gundam on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 1:44 pm
dear houndy,
half-baked or great ideas do not speak louder than actions.
so [deleted] go out and do something for the benefit of mankind.
grumbling here would not make any difference to ur days.
#61 by dawsheng on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 1:45 pm
With due respect Mr Lim, in my opinion the Bar council has lost its sense of priority, and for that reason rendered its existence completely meaningless. At this juncture, any lawyer doing some thinking in his head should know the most critical issues needed the urgency to be resolve are the independence of the judiciary and the police, abuses of power by the executive, why aren’t there any forums addressing these issues? The Bar Council’s decision to hold this forum on Islam conversion at this very moment, generates more questions then answer but not solution. I view it as a political ploy to whip up religious sentiments, which is already half succeed.
#62 by drmaharajahrk on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 1:46 pm
give Muslims a chance to vote for an Islamic state.
UMNO and PAS – Islamic and Malay fanatics
PKR,DAP,MCA,MIC,PPP, GERAKAN – Moderate politicians
go for elections in the above scenario….if UMNO/PAS win – we accept Islamic state and hudud laws, if moderate , open minded coalition wins we throw these militants to probably Afganistan/ Pakistan or Iran and Iraq
#63 by gundam on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 1:52 pm
dear dawsheng,
we cant be sure if it’s a mr/mrs/ms or something in between or not even mankind at all judging from ‘its’ behavior.
#64 by dawsheng on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 1:53 pm
It will be prudent for opposition politicians to pause and think, whether or not certain institution under its present leadership and the issues it addresses, are worthy of their political backing.
#65 by drmaharajahrk on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 1:58 pm
Lim Kit Siang,
never tell me to ” Vote any opposition ” anymore
PAS should be kicked out of Pakatan, the sooner the better !~
#66 by limkamput on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 1:59 pm
Dawsheng, and may I know the motive of them (the council) doing so – i.e to whip up the religious sentiments? BAR council is not a political party, or is it? Please be fair, that is all. If the council did nothing on the present impasse, I think many would criticise them also. The main issue is why can’t Malaysians sit down to discuss things that are of importance to them. Why must one party defiantly oppose others’ rights to discuss issues that affect them? If there was no disruption this morning, don’t you think the council was able to achieve a little this morning.
#67 by limkamput on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 2:02 pm
we cant be sure if it’s a mr/mrs/ms or something in between or not even mankind at all judging from ‘its’ behavior.Gundam
Who are you talking about here, is it you? I don’t want to be too presumptuous. By now and at your ripe old age, you should who you are!
#68 by dawsheng on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 2:07 pm
The issue of Islam conversion became an issue is due to the manifestation of failure in the system of judiciary, which is the root cause of all problems. Why has the Bar council kept its elegant silence on the root cause of all problems?
#69 by limkamput on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 2:08 pm
Political expediency just simply cannot work, damn it. After 50 years’ of inculcation and indoctrination, every one is a fcuking racist in this country.
#70 by dawsheng on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 2:10 pm
Why not have a forum on article 377A, B and C?
#71 by limkamput on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 2:10 pm
Dawsheng, didn’t the bar council is trying to do something now? You should know by now the failure of the judiciary system is NOT the doing of the council, please.
#72 by limkamput on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 2:13 pm
dawsheng Says:Why not have a forum on article 377A, B and C?
Why not, if time is suitable. Look Dawsheng, unless you are privy to something that i don’t know, i think it is not right to condemn the Bar council.
#73 by gundam on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 2:15 pm
tat’s right, im talking abt u, houndy.
well, im really nt in a position to whack ‘something’ in a public forum, pardon me if u r offended, but i believe as ‘something’ with a conscience, u deserve some lessons in public manner. i shall continue to do it anyway whenever i find tat u r talking cock again and no actions.
again, if u r an opposition supporter too, i do welcome some respect to ur fellow comrades here.
#74 by dawsheng on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 2:16 pm
I have said my piece, now I leave this thread to those who like PAS and Islam bashing.
#75 by sani on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 2:21 pm
YB Lim
“i might not subscript to what you believe, but i will defend to my death your right to.”
Many thanxs for your many years of service to Bangsa + Negara. You are a giant of a man.
#76 by limkamput on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 2:24 pm
Apologist, the feeling is mutual. Don’t worry. Part of my “job” is to circle half baked cock ideas and chop them. We come here to criticise and be criticised, pure and simple. I love doing my “job”. In fact I have neglected lately my duty due to constant harassment by “prim and proper” people like you.
#77 by gundam on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 2:32 pm
lovely hound,
i dun come here to criticize, im here to share and learn.
we dun need another teacher here, didnt ur pastor tell u tat during service?
now, stop acting like grumpy old man and ur job might be more appropriate and appreciated.
#78 by hiro on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 2:32 pm
I am particularly concerned that the leaders of the protestors, as reported by Malaysiakini, are from PKR and PAS. Did they have sanction from Anwar and Hadi Awang? If they did, this does not bode well for Pakatan.
#79 by badak on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 2:39 pm
Muslims around the world are forcing their view unto others,Just like the christians not to long ago.Most wars in the world are fought because of religion.
On one hand they say my god is good and forgiving.My religion is good and righteous.Only my good and religion can bring you heaven.
Next thing you know this same people are blowing innocent people up.In the name of their god.Im talking about all known religion we have today. I believe that GOD DID NOT MADE MEN … BUT IT WAS MAN WHO MADE GOD.Anything bad that happens and can,t be explain ,GOD WILL BE BLAMED FOR IT.SAMY,s famous saying. “”GOD BLAME IT ON GOD””
#80 by Godfather on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 2:40 pm
Rose Fashion,
I tremble when I warned by UMNO. I tremble when UMNO wants to take legal action. UMNO thinks it will alway win because UMNO controls the judiciary. Truth is I tremble because UMNO is an expert at fabricating evidence or demolishing evidence. Another warning from you and Kasim Amat, and I will probably pee in my pants.
#81 by Richardqed on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 2:44 pm
“Even the forum is permitted by authorities, police has a duty to keep the order in place and if they found that the forum has gone too far and provoked racial sensitive issues, they have the rights to demand it to end.”
Kasim,
Don’t twist and turn the topics. You know none of this is about Malay or Muslim rights, which remain safe and protected. You are just interested in maintaining Umnoputra rights to continue to steal from the rakyat (including the poor Malays in the streets who didn’t even get one bit of benefit from the NEP, and who have been conned for so long by your bosses). Stop being a bloody hypocrite.
When Kera Jantan led protests in the streets against the US secretary of state, where was the police?
#82 by limkamput on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 2:44 pm
Apologist, share and learn? How can you share when you are not prepared to listen whatever you shared with others make sense? How can you learn when you are not prepared to be criticised. How can we share and learn if we do not act like teachers and students.
I may be old, but may be not older than you. I may be grumpy, but may be not as nauseating as you.
#83 by Godfather on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 2:45 pm
But after having been sodomized by UMNO for the past 30 years, I don’t really care if you want to take me to court. …
#84 by Jeffrey on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 2:47 pm
According to Malaysiakini report Aug 9, 08 9:41am : “A leader of the protesters – PKR Kulim-Bandar Baharu parliamentarian Zulkifli Noordin – declared the abrupt end of the forum as a victory for them….Many of the protesters are from Muslim welfare organsation Perkida and Islamic party PAS. Among the protest leaders seen in the crowd are PAS Youth chief Salahuddin Ayub and Zulkifli.”
Sometime back before Bar Council’s forum (but after 8th March 2008 and the spectacular gains by Paktan Rakyat):-
· Deputy Mentri Besar Datuk Ahmad Yaakob said that PAS should be the backbone of Pakatan Rakyat if it wanted to realise its dream of establishing an Islamic state;
· PAS Youth proposed to implement the Islamic administrative systemin Pakatan Rakyat states;
· PAS had talks with Umno to form a coalition government in Selangor “in the name of Malay unity”;
· Selangor PAS Youth movement submitted a memorandum to the Selangor Mentri Besar’s office to protest against plans to have Malaysia rock queen Ella and dangdut singer Mas Idayu perform at the Sultan of Selangor Cup on July 6;
· PAS secretary-general (to read as deputy president) Nasharudin Mat Isa stated that the Malays were beginning to believe the sodomy allegations against Anwar Ibrahim;
· PAS spiritual leader Datuk Nik Abdul Aziz Nik Mat suggested that UMNO and PAS be dissolved and a new party formed to unite all Malays, and thereafter hudud and Qisas be implemented at Federal level,
all of which contradict the spirit if not letter of Pakatan Rakyat’s common manifesto in the last general election of 8th March 2008.
So the Question is: As many non-PAS members — Malays, Chinese and Indians included — voted for Pakatan Rakyat on 8th March 2008 premise that Pakatan Rakyat was for multiracialism & multiculturism without religious extremism, what is the response of Pakatan Rakyat (top echelon)’s response to all the above cited incidents including today’s some members of PKR & PAS seeking to silence the Bar Council’s forum on ‘Conversion to Islam? Could Pakatan Rakyat criticise the law enforcement for ‘siding’ protestors against the Bar Council when its own members play prominent part in the protests? Is Pakatan Rakyat going to be used by PAS to win power in order to establish the pure Islamic state?
#85 by gundam on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 2:51 pm
houndy,
u mst be patient. everyone has his/her own views to share whether it’s of wise or unwise. let us share and let no one be the ‘judge’ here.
u need to be more humble.
criticize we may, calling names we shall not especially when i dun find ur comments to be intelligent and useful but a bunch of rhetorics from reading too much.
i challenge u to put ur words into practice.
#86 by melurian on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 3:01 pm
pas already controlled kelantan for decades, and recently kedah. ppl always say kelantan is good, even RPK supported this (his fav quote – have you been to kelantan!), only gov controlled media twisted and painted different picture on kelantan. and pas always says cina and india happy in kelantan.
so why worry on turning the whole country into kelantan. those pas dissidents should open mind and try to accept pas, maybe they can turn malaysia into better place – a country like kelantan.
ppl always say good about singapura, but why not about kelantan. why not compare kl management style with kelantan, where the latter turned from poorest state before the place’s taken over by sabah and t’gannu. and kelantan did it without federal contribution! imagine kl to run like kelantan, we may turn into richest country in SEA, beating sgpura….
#87 by chiakchua on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 3:03 pm
Shame on us! We have 2 sect of extremist; racial and religious. Both are groomed by UMNOputras over the past decades. They used these 2 tactics to divide and rule the rakyat to safeguard their position and wealth. PKR just couldn’t make an abrupt turn. It will take time but there has to be a starting point. Islam is a great religion but not majority of the followers in Malaysia! They are misusing the name of RELIGION to pressure/threaten the non-Muslims. The country has to go for broke to learn the lesson and rebuild from scratch!
BN, especially MCA and MIC must also take the blame for allowing the UMNOputras to turn the country into the current situation.
#88 by antiracist on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 3:07 pm
YB LKS ang friends,
i’m muslim, but not expert as ulama. But Can you think what happen when govt want to abolish chinese and indian school ? Do you agree wth that ? govt want change math and science in english ? do you agree ? BUT when malay said ketuanan melayu you said extremist, when we defend islam u said extremist, when we try to protect bahasa melayu, we racist. SO the only rigat people for DAP is chinese coz they tertindas. What about malays yang miskin ? tak tertindas. Fikir la betul-betul.
Islam is not like others religious in practice BUT in positive value i think same. If u want to convert to islam it not just Mengucap and potong. It’s more than that? Do you study Islam with the right person or the the right source ? Can you easily discuss about ISlam ? NO, you must have the expert of islamic law. Like what TGNA in PAS said. We must discuss the right thing.
LU FIKIR LA SENDIRI. JIKA ANDA TIDAK MAHU ORANG LAIN MARAHKAN ANDA JANGAN BUAT ORANG LAIN MARAHKAN ANDA DAN ANDA MARAH ORANG ITU SEBAB SILAP FAHAM. NONSENCE LA DAP.
#89 by Freddy on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 3:08 pm
quote jus legitimum:
#regards burning hell notes during this Hungry Ghost Festival#
“This superstitious practice is obsolete and is only carried out by very old and mainly uneducated people.”
===
OMG! I didn’t know there are still so many uneducated people in Malaysia! I see them everywhere celebrating in large scales and burning away hell notes like hell. Strangelah. If this ‘superstitious practice’ is obsolete, why I still see it today …. especially so when comes the first and fifteenth of every lunar month …. but since this is Malaysia and is claimed to be represented by MCA, I take your word for it that in spite of the huge number of Chinese practising this OBSOLETE thingy, they are all either old or uneducated. Maybe we do have another problem unaddressed here huh? Wow … uneducated Chinese practising an obsolete thingy burning hell notes …. hahahahaha I’ve just gotta poke fun at those engineers and the such …. hahaha
=====
AhLiew says:
‘This issue is never a taboo for Chinese. We discuss, and some dispute it, openly on news paper. No tujuk perasaan so far.’
===
So far no tunjuk perasaan mainly because the discussion is still confined to the Chinese. Just imagine the other races and religions discuss them in a big way …. hmmmm… just imagine … for starter …. the Christians Chinese coming out to condemn them who burn hell notes openly and publicly followed by the Hindus and finally the Muslims ….
All I can say is this … to each his own religion and keep it to himself. To embrace a religion, wouldn’t it be best to know what it’s all about in the first place?
#90 by limkamput on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 3:14 pm
when i dun find ur comments to be intelligent and useful but a bunch of rhetorics from reading too much.
i challenge u to put ur words into practice. gundam
look, u shd seriously apply the advice that you gave to yourself. Do you think some of PR MPs and Aduns have great contributions?
#91 by limkamput on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 3:15 pm
sorry repost, mistake: Do you think some of PR MPs and Aduns have made great contributions?
#92 by Freddy on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 3:16 pm
as a matter of fact, just a thot here …
i mentioned i saw a post in a blog by one of DAP’s elected rep regarding the burning of hell notes in this Hungry Ghost Festival. that posting has since been removed after i voiced by disagreement.
as a suggestion, will the DAP rep concerned please reinstate that posting in its original so that it can be up for discussions by ALL??
we shall then be able to gauge the hostility of open debate when it comes to any religion…. especially the heat generated from those under condemnation…
RELIGION DIVIDES!!!! hahahahaha
#93 by year of snake on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 3:24 pm
People of other religions can be converted to Islam but Muslims cannot be converted to other religions or they will be ostracized or worse maybe killed. Muslims can critize or make fun of other religions but if anything negative is said on theirs they will issue a fatwa to have you killed. It is like the cantonese phrase “You are the only good person and everybody else is bad”
#94 by gundam on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 3:27 pm
hound,
let me reiterate, u mst be patient.
each person has his/her role to play, u do not expect everyone to be great contributor.
also we mst nt proclaim ourself to be righteous and wiser over others.
anyone who is not a destroyer is a contributor in some way or another.
#95 by limkamput on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 3:32 pm
anyone who is not a destroyer is a contributor in some way or another. gundam
Disagree. In a public forum, stupid ideas must be challenged. Otherwise, they influence others. I know what you are going to say – let others judge on their own. Not so simple, some get influenced. A good idea should be able to withstand challenge and debate.
#96 by Freddy on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 3:48 pm
Jeffrey says: So the Question is: As many non-PAS members — Malays, Chinese and Indians included — voted for Pakatan Rakyat on 8th March 2008 premise that Pakatan Rakyat was for multiracialism & multiculturism without religious extremism,…
First of all Jeffrey, Jeff Ooi conducted a poll and a good number of respondents polled said that ‘they voted against the BN out of anger’ or something to this effect. Therefore, let’s not take for granted that ALL the votes for the opposition (now PR) is for multiracialism and multiculturism. With tainted leadership in all of BN, PR will love it dearly to have Bodowi to helm BN and then passes the baton to Najis. Imagine if there’s some kind of ‘upset’ in UMNO and someone else like perhaps Tengku Razaleigh takes over …. I think with that change, the sentiments of voters will likely change too.
PR has less than 5 years to prove its worth. Time is short and don’t forget that to the people, it will be back to bread and butter issues come next general election. March 8 was basically a Barang Naik issue compounded by anger. Let’s not deceive ourselves that PR won because of voters’ genuine support.
Take a look at what’s happening today … PR is on the brink of collapse! Distrust is appearing from all angles. Today’s forum by the BRA Council ain’t helping. Oh yes … it is BRA council!
With such tempo, If I were Bodowi, I will be able to manage a wide grin from ear to ear!
#97 by gundam on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 3:54 pm
houndy,
u should reflect on urself whether u r truly the destroyer here.
due to ur condemnation, some ppl might feel timid to voice out their opinions and it’s due to ur influence.
now who r u to judge wat’s ‘stupid’?
u may not agree with ppl, tat’s totally fine. but it is not ur right or ‘duty’ to call other stupid as it only shows ur shallowness and intolerance.
ur behaviour truly reminded me of those protestors outside the half-day bar council forum today.
do not argue for the sake of arguing onli. we should instead garner the support of everyone, regardless of their intelligence to focus on how to win over the government.
#98 by gundam on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 4:06 pm
and hound, tis is not a debating nor ur forum, it’s a public forum to allow free flow of opinions and ideas from everyone/anything.
so do not harass and curse someone when their comments are not to ur liking. u mst really learn the meaning of humbleness again.
#99 by kanthanboy on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 4:22 pm
//..The Bar Council’s decision to hold this forum on Islam conversion at this very moment, generates more questions than answer..//
dawsheng, I am with you.
If one is only outwardly a Muslim, Christian, Buddhist or of any other religions it really doesn’t matter whether you are officially allowed to change your religion or not. What really count is the conversion of the heart, mind and spirit.
#100 by badak on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 4:24 pm
If given a chance Many MALAYS will renouce their religion.If given a chance 99% will want to Marry a muslim without converting to ISLAM.
If a person falls in love with a muslim,He falls in love with that person and not his or her religion.
Is islam such a fragile religion that,even talking about other religion to a muslim is a taboo. If you are not a muslim you are not allowed to discuss islam.
#101 by smashchye on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 4:44 pm
i dunno dats a problem actually to our country.. i tot we are living in a democratic country whereas if we want to talk about anything about religion its ok as long as we are not influencing anyone in it… how embracing islam topic can be a racial issue anyways? i am very aware now the leaders in this country seem to be very sensitive nowadays or mebi its because the recent limelight is not on them making them less popular so as hev to stand out to object anything or making an issue out of non issues to make people realise they are still alive..funny funny.. i feel very funny….mebi if they need to limelight especially hishamuddin or taib or whoever, they shud ask sum1 to charge them for sodomy..now theres BIG HOT NEWS!
#102 by limkamput on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 5:28 pm
Apologist,
How do we label whether an argument is stupid or otherwise? There must be challenge and counter challenge to see whether an idea is good enough. Otherwise what is the purpose of this blog – just a collection of inordinate and incoherent ideas devoid of any usefulness?
I thought it is in the blog that one can speak freely and frankly. I can’t help if there are those who feel intimidated. From my experience, I don’t think so. Most are more fierce that me, for example you!
#103 by gundam on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 5:43 pm
houndy,
tis is not a court. if an ‘argument’ is stupid, jst laugh away.
i believe mst commenters here are merely expressing their personal views, nt everyone is into meaningless argument like wat we r doing here.
r u living on top of an ivory tower? then i suggest u get back into reality.
no ideas are considered plain stupid or good enough, everything serves its purpose. do nt look at superficiality.
yes, one may speak frankly, bt one should nt judge or demean.
#104 by limkamput on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 6:04 pm
meaningless argument like wat we r doing here.
r u living on top of an ivory tower? then i suggest u get back into reality.apologist
See you can’t match what you say with what you do. Who is arguing with whom now? If I am not mistaken, you are the one constantly pursuing me now, if you have not realised it.
Talking about humility, on what basis you keep judging me I am sitting on my ivory tower and I have contributed nothing. How much you know about me, and how much you know of the work I have done. But of course I don’t have to report to a nobody like yourself.
#105 by gundam on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 6:12 pm
houndy,
u r getting the whole point wrong again.
i am in no intention of ‘pursuing’ u nor do i hold any personal grudge against u, i am doing tis out of my love for my comrades including u. i wan to see ur true potential being unveiled here rather than cursing and swearing like a mad canine.
arrogance is a sin and do nt be self-focused and looking towards something including ideas which does not serve ur interest or purpose.
#106 by gundam on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 6:15 pm
correction:
arrogance is a sin and do nt be self-focused and looking towards something including ideas which onli serve ur interest or purpose.
#107 by haris01 on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 6:57 pm
no body have any right to question of any religion…..
i wonder how can some [deleted] become suddenly become so clever of religion…..everybody just follow how each religion were before“that’s it….
remember that we are all in the middle age….
#108 by AA234567 on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 8:31 pm
Cant u see it’s an UMNO’s plot to bring down Pakatan and Anwar??
Believe me more Ketuanan Melayu stories to be spun for the coming days.
Words of May 13th will start to spread and the non-Malays will be rushing to the supermarket to stock up !!
#109 by limkamput on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 9:21 pm
If one is only outwardly a Muslim, Christian, Buddhist or of any other religions it really doesn’t matter whether you are officially allowed to change your religion or not. What really count is the conversion of the heart, mind and spirit. kanthanboy
Who has the final say who is outwardly and who has conversion of heart and mind? You?
#110 by cheng on on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 9:40 pm
Now who are the hooligans, police should disperse all those protestor by water cannon or tear gas ! These hooligans are violent and disrupt traffic, a nuisance, etc !
#111 by limkamput on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 10:04 pm
Gundam, let’s put it this way. My comments, no matter how abrasive, can’t be equal to your constant branding of others for being sinful because of this and that. People who are not smart usually cannot see their own irony.
#112 by nafasbaru on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 11:21 pm
will non-Muslims care to indulge in issues related to Islam, if these issues do not affect their lives ???
these issues exist, and there has to be a mechanism put in place to mediate these issues to a settlement.
the aim of this mechanism, is to dissipate tensions as and when they occur, thus ensuring multi-religious harmony.
it is not possible that a great religion like Islam does not provide space for mediating issues. It is the fundamentalist that portray Islam in such a position.
#113 by goldenscreen on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 12:55 am
Many people have seriously come out unfairly against PAS I feel. If most people would have taken the time to read carefully Malaysiakini’s report, then you would see that PAS was definitely taking the more moderate stance as opposed to the UMNO & PKR boys. I repeat it was the UMNO & PKR boys who advocated STORMING the Bar Council forum by force, while PAS advocated calming down the mob by asking to continue protesting WITHOUT ANY STORMING.
If you want to blabber about PAS misdeeds, please take the time to research your facts instead of grabbing the headlines and making your own conclusions. In my mind, PKR came out as the villians namely Badrul Hisham and Zulkifli Noordin.
#114 by kanthanboy on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 6:20 am
Who has the final say who is outwardly and who has conversion of heart and mind? You? Limkamput
________________________________________
It is a matter between you and your god.
I am referring to those Muslims who were denied the right to convert from Islam to another religion and therefore remain only outwardly as Muslims. If they have embraced another religion in their heart, mind and spirit, whatever the government does will not change the fact that they have already abandoned Islam. You can try to keep a person’ religion outwardly but you cannot truly change a person’s faith by legislation.
#115 by undergrad2 on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 7:50 am
Yee Siew Wah Says:
Yesterday at 12: 44.56
“Islam is a great religion. It is the people who misinterpret to their advantage…”
You may want to ask Salman Rusdie about the satanic verses.
#116 by johnson chong on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 7:53 am
Curious to know what will the scenario be if the forum is organised by the Muslim NGO regarding other non muslim religion and the protester is not Muslim. Will the cabinet minister and the police codemm this forum than and will the police use water cannon to shoot down protester just like Hindraf? Any race or religion which does not accept critiscm or suggestion is going down a one way road to failure. As fellow human beings we must all learn to accept changes and proposal for the better of the human race.
#117 by 318 on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 9:06 am
to kassim amat n antiracist all the racist pls have a tour to Indonesia. let me tell when i were working in our neighbour country i do have malay friends when we were sitting to have meal together i did ask them can you sit with where i eat pork the answer was you eat yours i eat mine why cannot sit together another case i am staying in a nearby chinese village there is a pork seller was asked to shift away or else the majlis wiil revoke his license is this you call torelance unity fair your right your previleges did anybody question the official language religion of our country is nep is your right
#118 by yellowkingdom on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 12:39 pm
Syed Hump-it is a no-gooder. Didn’t his “intelligence” indicate that 300 protesters will be demonstrating at the legally-approved permit-granted forum? Why didn’t he deploy the police to diperse the belligerent crowd? Instead this goon sided with the mob to insinuate certain issues as being sensitive and should not be discussed in the open. What, like UMNO-PAS Malay-unity talks? Cannot see the light of day, instead spoken in secrecy, darkness and in deceit. The police instead of enforcing the law indispersing the crowd has colluded with the mob the to disrupt the forum. Blatant disrespect of the law. Bring on IPCMC!
#119 by RGRaj on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 7:00 pm
The protesters have proved the Bar Council right.
There IS a problem with conversion to Islam in Malaysia.
#120 by zak_hammaad on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 10:23 pm
Many comments here of late are reflective of the general rise in anti-Malay and Islamophobic stance taken by non-Muslim minorities, and if they want to compromise national stability for their vested political interests, then be prepared for many more May 13’s!
#121 by Old.observer on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 11:13 pm
zak_hammaad,
You repeated this comment in the previous topic — “Many comments here of late are reflective of the general rise in anti-Malay and Islamophobic stance taken by non-Muslim minorities, and if they want to compromise national stability for their vested political interests, then be prepared for many more May 13’s!”
No, I kindly disagree with this view.
May 13 is most likely manufactured to promote the political ambition of certain individuals.
Here, in this blog, the readership is relatively small. The majority here are open to discussions and reasoning.
It is when we have a closed mind, and a fanatical stance, flamed by the political ambition of a select few, that we have things like May 13.
We should never be afraid of open discussions, so long as it is done respectfully by every parties, supported with facts and sound reasons. I believe all great religious teachers (whether Mohammad, Jesus, Buddha, etc.) practiced these unwaveringly and consistently during their lifetime.
Old Observer.
#122 by dr suresh kumar on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 6:10 pm
zak hamaad,
Your threats about about May 13 happening is just your own figment of imagination.This comment of yours shows your poor analytical mind.The socio-economic conditions of Malaysia in 1969 and now is vastly different.Believe me if another May 13 carnage were to occur,the malays and bumiputers stood to lose the most
this time around.The malays and bumiputeras, without an iota of doubt are enjoying the fruits of labour of the non-bumis through the flawed NEP.I as a true Malaysian would like to see the bumiputeras to be on par with the other communities,but certainly to threaten with the May 13 episode time and again does not reflect maturity.In this fast paced,globalized world what you need as your arms are industry and knowledge and not `keris’.As that will put the country back another 20 years.
Wish all malaysians well.