“PM: Religious festivals unite all Malaysians” is the New Straits Times headline today for Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi’s statement yesterday at an Aidiladha ceremony, where he said:
“Malaysia can pride itself in knowing that regardless of what religious celebration it may be, its ethnic groups will come together as one to honour the event.”
This was very true in the early decades of our nationhood, but it has become less and less true as increasing religious polarization in the country is undermining and even threatening national unity.
In fact, it is no exaggeration to say that religious polarization is most serious in the past four years under Abdullah as Prime Minister as compared to the four former Prime Ministers – Tunku Abdul Rahman, Tun Razak, Tun Hussein Onn and Tun Dr. Mahathir Mohamad.
It is most unfortunate that in recent years, there have been mounting instances of disrespect and insensitivity of those in power and authority for the rights and sensitivities of non-Muslim Malaysians.
The most serious example were the recent triple insensitivities during this year’s Deepavali – the Festival of Light celebrated by Hindus.
Firstly, there was the insensitive and sacrilegious demolition of the 40-year-old Sri Maha Mariaman Temple in Kampung Rimba Jaya in Shah Alam when Deepavali was just a week away.
This was followed by the disrespect and insensitivity when the Umno General Assembly was held on Deepavali – imagine the protest and outrage if the MCA or MIC had held their general assemblies during the Hari Raya holidays.
But there was a third strike – when Umno Deputy Youth Leader and the Prime Minister’s son-in-law, Khairy Jamaluddin went on a rampage against the Indian community at the Umno General Assembly, telecast on RTM, blaming the Indian news vendors for taking a national press holiday during Deepavali and blacking Abdullah’s speech as Umno President the next day.
The outrage by the Indian community at these triple disrespect and insensitivities were a major cause for 30,000 Indians from all over the country gathering in Kuala Lumpur on Nov. 25 in support of the Hindraf demonstration – not to create unrest but to send their cry of despair at their marginalization to the government of the day!
Such insensitivity and disrespect could also be seen In Parliament, as in the shocking incident where two Umno MPs demanded the removal of the cross and demolition of Christian statues in mission schools.
Universiti Putra Malaysia (UPM) is starting its new semester on Dec. 24, which is Christmas Eve – another example of decreasing respect and sensitivity from those in authority for different religious rights and practices, or the UPM would have fixed its semester opening a few days later.
The Prime Minister must take urgent measures to arrest the worsening of inter-religious relations in the country and halt the growing number of incidents of disrespect and insensitivity felt by non-Muslim Malaysians about their rights and religious practices by those in power and authority.
I have just received this SMS on another incident, viz:
“HERALD the weekly paper of the Catholic Church facing problem in renewing permit. Told not to have Bahasa section as condition for approval. All these years they had four sections – languages. BM to reach East Malaysians and youths educated in BM.”
The Prime Minister should immediately address these obstacles to greater national unity, so that Malaysia can revert to the previous position where religious polarization was a serious problem in nation-building so that religious festivals can continue to be an occasion to unite all Malaysians rather than divide them.
#1 by ycg on Wednesday, 19 December 2007 - 4:09 pm
first bible not in BM, now even their weekly newsprint also cannot be in BM. what next? *sigh*…even indonesia allows the bible to be printed in their language. Equal rights konon.
And oh ya before I kena shoot for pro this that, I profess, i’m an agnostic.
#2 by helpless on Wednesday, 19 December 2007 - 4:16 pm
Supported the cry. It is a good message.
God bless us if a sober Indian continue to vote BN.
“… disrespect and insensitivity … Umno G.Assy was held on Deepavali – imagine the protest …if MCA or MIC had held GA during Hari Raya holidays.
.. when Umno went on a rampage against Indian community at the Umno GA, telecast on RTM, blaming the Indian news vendors for taking a national press holiday during Deepavali and blacking Abdullah’s speech as Umno President the next day. “
#3 by Jong on Wednesday, 19 December 2007 - 4:19 pm
Tell me the truth, I want to hear the truth however painful it may be. But is this the truth? Ooosp sorry, I just dozzzzzzzzzzz off.
As I see it, this idiot needs to realise that those close to him at the office or even at home are the ones messing him up. He needs to visit and read the blogs because he gets no truth from the office, home and even the govt controlled news media.
#4 by yellowkingdom on Wednesday, 19 December 2007 - 4:20 pm
It is a well-known fact that racial polarization is rampant these days with the incidents you have highlighted in this blog over the years, and more so recently. There has been less tolerance of different religious beliefs and ethnic practices by those in power and authority. These incidences hardly raised the PM’s eyebrow and those guilty were never censured for their bigotted views.
I am saddened that the have yet again cause trouble to the Catholic community with the imposition of ridiculous conditions for a printing permit. Are these conditions set by “napoleons” or with the endoresent of the “I-am-fair-to-all” PM? I have my doubts as to his awareness of these breaches of religious freedom and intolerance of other faiths by the government under his watch.
#5 by gofortruth on Wednesday, 19 December 2007 - 4:26 pm
First they got everyone to study BM, [deleted] now after 37years into the [deleted] NEP with every non Malay so well educated in the language, they don’t allow printing in BM in church as if BM is exclusively Malay. How ridiculous!
What kind of a language disaster BN has got us all into. Why can’t they learn something from Singapore!
BN is sick!!!
#6 by k1980 on Wednesday, 19 December 2007 - 4:39 pm
BM textbooks can’t be used even in Indonesia but Maths books from S’pore endorsed for use in Californian schools
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/318034/1/.html
Students in California could soon use similar mathematics textbooks as their Singapore peers. The textbooks have been used in local schools for 20 years and have been circulating for years in other schools in the US.
#7 by oknyua on Wednesday, 19 December 2007 - 4:52 pm
YB Lim, the acceleration of intolerance occurred during AAB, but it started very much earlier. During TDM’s last election, BN lose in Terengganu and almost lost Kedah, UMNO then had either to (a) maintain their secular approach in administration and risked further rejection of the voters, or (b) became comparatively more radical than religious party. They choose the latter.
That explains why the word intolerance does not really apply among Hindus, Christians and Buddhist etc. 20 years ago, many of us do not have any reservations in visiting a Muslim house. Today I am conscious that if I am offered a drink, that cup I used MIGHT not used again by a Muslim family, because it has been soiled, (I am khafir). I don’t know whether to shake hands (touching) or just to say hello (even doctors used pencil to check me). My first step into a Muslim home must be my right foot. When I receive something, I need to be careful I use only right hand.
Yet, I have never received such treatments among the rural Malays – be it in Selangor or anywhere. I speak their lingo (with slang) and mix with them very well (that explain why I know their “pantang- larangâ€). But it’s only among the rural Malays that I find this barrier non-existence. My conclusion, this polarisation has NOTHING to do with the Malay or Muslim culture. It is purely political and in this case, the politics of the ruling people.
#8 by lakshy on Wednesday, 19 December 2007 - 4:57 pm
It’s actually teh arabisation of malaysia, and has nothing to do with SIlam.
read Syed Akbar Ali’s book, “Malaysia and teh Club of Doom”, to find out what is meant about arabisation and Doom. Very apt. We seem to be headed in this direction.
#9 by oknyua on Wednesday, 19 December 2007 - 4:57 pm
ycg, the Alkitab Indonesia and Bahasa Malaysia is NOT banned. Get your copies from Bible Society. Thanks
#10 by oknyua on Wednesday, 19 December 2007 - 5:02 pm
Sorry for that “is,” Should be..”are Not banned.” The Bible Society’s number in the website has not been updated. Go to PJ, Damansara Kim.
#11 by burn on Wednesday, 19 December 2007 - 5:08 pm
“PM: Religious festivals unite all Malaysians 
Yes. it’s partly true…
love when you say unite all malaysians, but!… but!… but!…
we are not being treated fairly and equally!
it’s already merdeka for 50yrs, still, we are consider pendatangs…
nama saja malaysian, tapi takdo diskaun beli rumah dll…
#12 by justice_fighter on Wednesday, 19 December 2007 - 5:09 pm
Sorry guys, off topic a bit.
There is a call for donation to the Hindraf hero Ganabathirau:
http://tonypua.blogspot.com/
Thank you for your generous contributions
#13 by lakalaka69 on Wednesday, 19 December 2007 - 5:17 pm
God bless us if a sober Indian continue to vote BN. by “helpless”
To vote BN, I consider is the biggest sin one could ever commit against the society and country.
#14 by ycg on Wednesday, 19 December 2007 - 5:31 pm
oknyua, that still does not change the fact that the authorities are trying very hard to restrict other religions publication in bm…or are we going to go in denial mode like BN? I found a copy of indonesian language bible inside the hotel i’m staying in indo…can you find me a hotel in Malaysia that has has a BM bible?
‘Ban’ is just a word, what matters is the meaning you attach to the word (Matrix :P). Try circulating BM translated bible, see if the authorities tolerates it…then tell me if it is ban / not.
#15 by dawsheng on Wednesday, 19 December 2007 - 5:37 pm
Aiya…. why worry? All the god’s human representatives are in BN what. Wah! power pack line up some more… sure no problem one.. better remember to ask for 4d numbers… cheers!
#16 by greenacre on Wednesday, 19 December 2007 - 5:52 pm
I was studying down under. There I shared a house with a Turkish Muslim man. There was only one Refrigerator. As a Hindu i do consume a little pork which was kept in fridge. So I decided to throw it away knowing that he is a Muslim and told him that he could share the the other part of fridge.
To my great surprise this man threw away his beef portion stating that it is against Hindu belief. I have never met this man nor know of him neither does he. It changed my perception. We became great friends since that episode in 1993. I don’t get treated this way in Malaysia. what to do?
#17 by AnakTiriMalaysia on Wednesday, 19 December 2007 - 5:57 pm
“HERALD the weekly paper of the Catholic Church facing problem in renewing permit. Told not to have Bahasa section as condition for approval. All these years they had four sections – languages. BM to reach East Malaysians and youths educated in BM.””
So what is meant by ‘religious freedom’ ?
When one is strong in their faith,(and his/her religion is true) the faith would not be shaken by anything, anyone on this earth!!! -Because he/she is protected by his/her creator/God…
so ….why and what is the rationale of this action??
#18 by ahoo on Wednesday, 19 December 2007 - 6:35 pm
When we removed LOVE from any religion, tolerance goes out of the window ! We can complain until kingdom come, change will not happen as it need people to make the change.
Vote only those that can offer us change in policies and are righteous who dare to stand up for truth without hesitation.
” When one is strong in their faith,(and his/her religion is true) the faith would not be shaken by anything, anyone on this earth!!! -Because he/she is protected by his/her creator/God… ”
anaktirimalaysia.
As said above, if one’s faith is strong enough, why fear others ? In any case, YB, let the BN’s policies continue to move the way they want it and we will continue to vote the way we deem it right !!!
#19 by Cinapek on Wednesday, 19 December 2007 - 6:53 pm
So where are the Minister of Buddhist Affairs(OKT), the Minister of Hindu Affairs (Samy) and Minister of Christian Affairs (Bernard) – Cabinet appointments according to AAB- when all these insensitive acts were happening?
Samy tried to intervene in the Shah Alam temple demolition but some tinpot Napoleon extremist in the Selangor Govt. gave him the middle finger. And when the CM of Sabah and the state Mufti blocked the construction of the Goddess of Mercy statue even though it has been given approval, what did OKT do? Nothing. Not even a peep. Not buddhist statue is it? As for Bernard, go and look where many churches are operating from. Shophouses. Why?
#20 by Libra2 on Wednesday, 19 December 2007 - 7:11 pm
I asked one Muslim why they object to pork being served at public functions and places where Muslim are present but allow beef (which Hindus and some Buddhists don’t consume) to be served at such functions.
His reply – beef is clean but pork is dirty. He side stepped the religious sensitivity issues and respect other people’s beliefs.
#21 by borrring on Wednesday, 19 December 2007 - 7:11 pm
“HERALD the weekly paper of the Catholic Church facing problem in renewing permit. Told not to have Bahasa section as condition for approval. All these years they had four sections – languages. BM to reach East Malaysians and youths educated in BM.—
Do you think that those who can’t read other than BM will be influenced to turn to christianity by reading the BM section of the Herald? It’s really funny come to think of it…it’s like making a statement that “literature written in BM other than islam literature” will influence muslims who can only read in BM to turn to other religions…it’s an insult to the muslim population
#22 by liaw3003sc on Wednesday, 19 December 2007 - 7:38 pm
Dear PM, We would like to see action , not just lip service!
1. Please punish the ‘napoleon’ who try to victimise the Catalic Church weekly news letter. We must get a credit for our BM in all exams; what is this for?
2. Please get the Kudat municipal council to back out of the statue dispute. This is an outright moronic and sensitive move by the authority concerned. This is the kind of case; the officers (Unfortunately they are also Malays and Muslims due to BN agenda) are the one who started the fire first, when the non-Muslims protest to get it righted, UMNOputras will harp on them with threats, and with the BN control of the mass media, it gives all the Malays and Muslims in the country the ‘false’ image that UMNO is their champion! How could we not be polarised?
#23 by undergrad2 on Wednesday, 19 December 2007 - 8:06 pm
“My conclusion, this polarisation has NOTHING to do with the Malay or Muslim culture. It is purely political and in this case, the politics of the ruling people.†oknyua
‘Religious polarization’ is indeed an artificially created ‘process’ if you will, political in its objective though seemingly religious in its nature and cause. Much like ‘marginalization’ which is economic in its roots but reinforced by the politics of racism.
It’s exclusive approach is followed by UMNO leaders so as UMNO does not to lose its relevance as a political party in a country beset by the politics of race and division. Whereas religion is inclusive by their nature – preaching understanding and unity in the oneness of God – religious polarization though not quite the invention of UMNO is religiously followed by its leaders to divide and rule.
Is it surprising that HERALD a weekly paper of the Catholic Church is banned from continuing its Bahasa Malaysia section? After all it flows directly from a key provision in the Federation of Malaysia Constitution of 1957 which ‘guarantees’ religious freedom but protects Muslim from the ‘adverse consequences’ of proselytization: Article 11 (1) qualified by Clause (4).
#24 by khch01 on Wednesday, 19 December 2007 - 9:24 pm
Sabah Mufti’s Fatwa: Buddhist Statues are HARAM (FORBIDDEN)
Support Tan Sri Chong , don’t let him singly fight the issue in court.
#25 by catharsis on Wednesday, 19 December 2007 - 9:49 pm
WIth the “We versus Them” culture – all energies and scarce resources are being wasted with this preoccupation MALAYSIA BOLIH
#26 by DarkHorse on Wednesday, 19 December 2007 - 10:17 pm
“This was very true in the early decades of our nationhood, but it has become less and less true as increasing religious polarization in the country is undermining and even threatening national unity.’ Kit
Increased Islamization in a multiracial country like Malaysia has led to religious polarization. It is much like the issue between ‘mordernization’ and ‘westernization’. Can we have one without the other?
Pinheads may argue passionately on the issue.
Much of the blame must go to Anwar Ibrahim who started it all and Mahathir a moderate Muslim, who chose to ride the wave of Islamic fundamentalism in the 80s. Mahathir is the classic opportunist – and Anwar the trail blazer.
#27 by Earshot on Wednesday, 19 December 2007 - 10:22 pm
I have ‘copy & paste’ Article 11 of the Constitution below.
The point I wish to raise is this:
Unless one makes the assumption that writing in BM means an attempt to proselytize, the condition imposed for approval of permit does seem to be contravening with Art. 11 – just from layman’s point of view!! Can some legal mind help out here?
HERE IS ARTICLE 11
(1) Every person has the right to profess and practice his religion and, subject to Clause (4), to propagate it.
(2) No person shall be compelled to pay any tax the proceeds of which are specially allocated in whole or in part for the purposes of a religion other than his own.
• (3) Every religious group has the right –
o (a) to manage its own religious affairs;
o (b) to establish and maintain institutions for religious or charitable
purposes; and
o (c) to acquire and own property and hold and administer it in accordance with law.
• (4) State law and in respect of the Federal Territories of Kuala Lumpur and Labuan, federal law may control or restrict the propagation of any religious doctrine or belief among persons professing the religion of Islam.
• (5) This Article does not authorize any act contrary to any general law relating to public order, public health or morality.
#28 by shaolin on Wednesday, 19 December 2007 - 10:38 pm
Religious Polarisation is caused by the government!!
As burn says, ‘We are pendatang haram!!. Indons are
not pendatang haram becoz they are Muslim brothers
and sisters. We as government, must take good care
of them otherwise Allah will punish us for ill-treating
them!! Other races not so important ma… they are non-
Muslim and it is ok…!!
Government builds schools for them and let them enjoy
all benefits as soon as they literally swim across the
Melaka Straits! On the contrary, we are born and raised
up here and we are treated as 2nd class citizen or 3rd
class citizen…!!
#29 by undergrad2 on Wednesday, 19 December 2007 - 10:40 pm
The same reason why having Bibles translated to Bahasa Malaysia is an attempt to proselytize the Muslims – which is seen as a contravention of Article 11(1) as qualified by (4) and (5) of the Constitution.
#30 by undergrad2 on Wednesday, 19 December 2007 - 10:54 pm
“Unless one makes the assumption that writing in BM means an attempt to proselytize, the condition imposed for approval of permit does seem to be contravening with Art. 11 – just from layman’s point of view!! Can some legal mind help out here?’ Earshot
Hypothetically speaking, would refusing HERALD, a weekly paper of the Catholic Church, the printing permit required because of its choice to maintain a Bahasa Malaysia section not in contravention of the free speech right under Article 10?
If you think it would be in contravention of Article 10 but not Article 11 (4), then you have a problem.
If you think it would be in contravention of Article 10 then what does that make of the Printing Presses Act (not the formal name) – void as against the Federal Constitution?
#31 by Colonel on Wednesday, 19 December 2007 - 11:11 pm
Art. 11(4) is wide enough to cover and render Malay translated versions of the Christian Bible and Bahasa Malaysia sections in a weekly paper of the church a contravention of the Constitution.
My 2-cents worth!
#32 by k1980 on Wednesday, 19 December 2007 - 11:13 pm
The worst ha syet to come: Wahabbism to replace Hadharism
http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:osrlmMJEFfEJ:www.organiser.org/dynamic/modules.php%3Fname%3DContent%26pa%3Dshowpage%26pid%3D215%26page%3D3+Will+Malaysia+become+a+Jihadistan%3F&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us
#33 by Colonel on Wednesday, 19 December 2007 - 11:22 pm
ycg “…even indonesia allows the bible to be printed in their language. Equal rights konon.”
Funny, I don’t recall if Indonesia has a written Constitution i.e. in the same way we do! But they have their Pantjasila (like our Rukun Negara) which allows the free practice of religious beliefs. The pribumis there are not required by law to be Muslims although Indonesia is the most populated and largest Muslim country in the world.
Religious tolerance in Indonesia is however mostly on the surface. In practice they are not tolerant of Christians and Christians face degrees of persecution.
#34 by fighter on Wednesday, 19 December 2007 - 11:26 pm
Some of the Malays are becoming more and more racist.
Imagine a retired Court of Appeal Judge presented a working paper in a recent UMNO meeting whereby he suggested to import Javanese and Muslims from China and India into Malaysia so as to boost the Malay population.If it was from a lay Malay it would not be frightening but coming from an Appeal Court judge, we are in grave danger! He wanted Muslim foreigners to swamp non-Malay Malaysians who have been here for generations. Is this not racist?
Recently, my wife went to a supermarket with our Indonesian Muslim maid.While there a Muslim staff told my maid to get married to a local Muslim man so that she need not have to wash clothes for the Chinese. My wife is a Chinese.So again is this not racist?
#35 by AsIseeit on Wednesday, 19 December 2007 - 11:30 pm
Looking at the track record of Islam Hadhari to date, it is more extreme than moderate. Extreme in its attitude, and implementation of policies and actions against those of other faiths.
As race and religion are interwined in Malaysia, is it possible to say that it has nothing to do with Malay at all?
A thesis could be written with all the evidence in store already!
#36 by Earshot on Wednesday, 19 December 2007 - 11:34 pm
Art. 11(4) makes reference to ‘persons professing the religion of Islam’.
Merely printing a weekly paper of a church in Bahasa Malaysia [and not yet the act of promoting it] alone can’t be seen as propagation of any religious doctrine or belief to persons professing the religion of Islam. This is the premise of my first post above.
But I do see now there could be sufficient justification if Article 10 is brought in. Or is it? Again, I must admit, this is purely from layman’s view…just pondering!
#37 by toyolbuster on Wednesday, 19 December 2007 - 11:40 pm
Selamat Hari Raya AidilAdha. And I suppose its a very auspicious day for the Muslims, a day for a thought on all the poor and sufferings. How appropriate for our PM to continue locking up the Hi5 under ISA over AidilAdha. What goes around comes around.
#38 by Bigfoot on Wednesday, 19 December 2007 - 11:44 pm
“Malaysia can pride itself in knowing that regardless of what religious celebration it may be, its ethnic groups will come together as one to honour the event” (Badawi)
Yeah right. Let’s see if the Putrajaya is willing to host Hanukkah celebrations in 2008, while extending an invitation to the “Zionist regime”.
For what it’s worth, I seriously don’t recall seeing this much racial and religious polarization during Dr. Mahathir’s administration, as much as I see it now during Badawi’s administration! Clearly something is seriously wrong!
Now, the New Straits Times is talking about the establishment of “Communal mediation committees” and enforce “Rukun Tetangga”. This simply does not address any of the root causes of all the issues going on here. If they really took a look, the root causes would simply boil down to “Ketuanan Melayu” and the abuse of the New Economic Policy (NEP). But they simply don’t want to admit it.
http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/NST/Wednesday/Frontpage/2113290/Article/index_html
http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/NST/Wednesday/National/2113291/Article/index_html
#39 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 12:56 am
“Merely printing a weekly paper of a church in Bahasa Malaysia [and not yet the act of promoting it] alone can’t be seen as propagation…” Earshot
Something tells me you’re not quite the layman you claim to be – but yes, that would be the argument if you’re representing the church. I wouldn’t advise you to though for many reasons.
#40 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 12:58 am
Don’t you know that to slip in a Bible into the school bag of your Muslim classmate is viewed as proselytizing?
#41 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 1:03 am
“As race and religion are interwined in Malaysia, is it possible to say that it has nothing to do with Malay at all?”
Being a Malay has everything to do with being a Muslim. See Art. 160(2) of the Constitution.
#42 by DarkHorse on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 1:20 am
“Some of the Malays are becoming more and more racist.”
Something we can all agree!
More so post-HINDRAF. Their sense of security has been violated by HINDRAF if you know what I mean. Therefore, the HINDRAF 5 need to remain under detention till tempers cool down.
If under the Sale of Goods Act, the buyer is legally protected from the aggresive selling methods of the door-to-door salesman by allowing the buyer a statutory period of 10 days to change his mind (after signing the contract of sale) referred to as the “cooling off” period, the same reasoning could be employed perhaps to justify their detention.
A “cooling off” period is necessary.
What do they say about someone entering the kitchen and not being able to stand the heat?? Do not enter the kitchen!
#43 by aerolancer on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 1:38 am
The religious issue is increasingly being politicized and I can not agree more with the panel on this issue. As noted, Wahabbism exists in Malaysia even before the reign of previous PMs and some forms of its front organization, e.g. Jamat el-Islami, League of Bortherwood etc, are outright banned in many Middle East and European countries. It is, however, given a warm welcome and free reign in Malaysia! (They just had their largest biannual conference in Kuala Lumpur 3 months back!).
It is hard to tell apart the “converted” Muslim from the moderate Muslim except the inclination of repulsion towards Khalif (non-Muslim) and the promotion of racial intolerance. (you know, they have 2 failed armed coups in Egypt and Syria around 1970s) Fundamentalism is a serious threat to our harmony and these organizations have to be abolished!
Dear Mr. Lim, in regards to escalating religion polarization, I think the government is approaching the issue in a very atypical manner rather. ISA, restriction in broadcast media, over-zealous employment of judiciary power or even tightening of Shariah law will only inflame the issue. It is very important now to contrive public fund to popularize the gentle classical Islam (in theatrical play/movie, awards and talks), tighten the wealth gap (incentive and subsidies for unemployed or low income) and promote social tolerance among the public and general sector. If this fails, Mr. Lim, the coming disaster will make the 513 looks like child play. Please note that Malaysia is geographically pretty much hampered by fundamentalism. (Free Muslim state in Southern Filipine, armed Islamic militia in Southern Thailand and Jihadism in Indonesia)
Regards.
#44 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 2:02 am
I’m no religious scholar and I don’t profess to know anything about Wahabism more than that they were followers of Wahabb who started this religious reform (Sunni as opposed to Shite) movement a few hundred years ago and had Saudi Arabia as its base.
The strong dislike for images and idolatry, shrines etc could also be found among Evangelical Christians and denominations like Presbyterians etc. The Catholic Church uses a lot of images in their church. This is historical in origin and stemmed from the desire of Emperor Constantine, the first Christian Emperor, to unite Rome. He could not ignore the role Greek Gods played in the lives of his people.
Racial and religious polarization in Malaysia go hand in hand because all Malays are Muslims. Issues of race complicate the matter. Internationally Malaysia is regarded as a country practicing a moderate form of Islam. This is becoming less true today than say 50 years ago as religious intolerance become more the norm.
It would appear that events of 9/11 and the invasion of Iraq an Afghanistan have alienated Malays who are Muslims from the western world.
The question can then be asked: Wither Malaysia?
#45 by sj on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 3:29 am
Does anyone know the chinese story of the water margin? With the 108 heroes? Khairy fits perfectly for his role as Gao Qiu and Abdullah Badawi is just like the Emperor.
#46 by sj on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 3:31 am
Don’t you know that to slip in a Bible into the school bag of your Muslim classmate is viewed as proselytizing? by undergrad2
If I am not mistaken you can be arrested for that, only in the lands of Malaysia can something as ridiculous as this can happen.
#47 by sj on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 3:35 am
“It’s really funny come to think of it…it’s like making a statement that “literature written in BM other than islam literature†will influence muslims who can only read in BM to turn to other religions…it’s an insult to the muslim population” by borrring
Hmm, u know what? The real Muslim in Malaysia are rare. If you read what RPK has put up before you will realise that most of them are confused lot. They care more to pray 5 times a day than to be a better human being. The care about only superficial form, but not in depth principles and essence. So after years of suppression, suddenly you are given the option to change for the better or something different for a taste, dont you think it is logical for a person to want a change?
#48 by noblepath on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 5:49 am
I’m not a Christian but what is so wrong about priting the Bible in Bahasa? Perhaps they should elaborate more on that…
#49 by shortie kiasu on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 6:08 am
That is the consequence of daily bombardment of doses of racial and religious issues and statements through the media by the current government.
Every one gets polarised.
#50 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 7:04 am
“I’m not a Christian but what is so wrong about priting the Bible in Bahasa? Perhaps they should elaborate more on that…”
Good question. It is not like the Malays cannot read English.
But while Bibles are written in English, Bibles written in Bahasa makes nonsense of Article 11 (4) and Article 160(2).
#51 by mickey01 on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 8:00 am
Not only the Indians are grossly marginalised. Other races other than the Malays are in the same boat. A lot of discriminations, unfairness and gross injustices is happening in Msia. A lot of prophets and stories mentioned in the koran were also mentioned in the bible. Even today’s religious event was originated from the bible. Can the muslims be more origin for a while and not be a copycat? How to progress if we just know how to copy only?
#52 by DiaperHead on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 8:28 am
Hoi! Don’t say like that lar!
You don’t want to start a Jihad do you??
Muslims believe in the Old Testament in the Bible but not the New Testament. So same old prophets lar! To Muslims Jesus was a prophet and not son of God. Jews too believe Jesus was a good priest. They are still waiting for their Messiah after 2,000 years!
Go tell the Jews not to follow the Christian Bible! They believe in the same prophets of the Old Testament. Who is copying whom? The Christians copied the Jews?? Judaism is about 3,000 years old.
#53 by ktteokt on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 8:42 am
Today is Hari Raya Haji (Hari Korban) and you can see Muslims killing cattle publicly under trees. This is indeed so uncivilized.[deleted]
After all, you will get two human beings (one Muslim and the other a non-Muslim) and two poultry (meat of which is consumed by human beings) being engaged in the same act. Then how come one is banned and the other is not? Clearly religious and racial discrimination!
#54 by 2ndClassCitizen on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 8:46 am
I know of some people who are both indian muslims, and their children get bumi status… Does that mean that in order for their chilren to become bumis, all non-muslim just need to convert? What is the qualification to be a bumiputra? Is there a clear cut policy?
#55 by DiaperHead on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 8:59 am
Better than having a Jihadist cut your head off instead of the buffalo’s head!!
#56 by DiaperHead on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 9:01 am
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#57 by borrring on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 9:14 am
“Hmm, u know what? The real Muslim in Malaysia are rare. If you read what RPK has put up before you will realise that most of them are confused lot. They care more to pray 5 times a day than to be a better human being. The care about only superficial form, but not in depth principles and essence. So after years of suppression, suddenly you are given the option to change for the better or something different for a taste, dont you think it is logical for a person to want a change? sj”
To some extent, there’s some truth to that. I have muslim frens, who do not pray at all, and only will start to pray when they think it’s time to repent which is during the old age; but yet are very fanatic about the concept of “halal”. I mean they refuse to eat “fullmoon” cakes even it comes from a halal cake house just b’cos the packaging has some chinese writings on it. And even dress up more “sexily” than the non muslims.
And these so-called “pious” lot also say the worst things about other people. When something bad happens to a person they don’t like/hate, they will say, “Padanlah muka org tu.Itulah akibat nya kalau jahat”.
#58 by borrring on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 9:16 am
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#59 by mendela on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 9:21 am
The total numbers of Islamic fanatics is very small. The biggest problem we face here is majority of the moderate Muslims in Malaysia don’t stand up and say NO to them.
When nobody says NO, the fanatics will have their extreme ways in all things they say and do. And they become rules and regulations!
Moderate Muslims in Malaysian MUST grow up and stop all such abuses!
#60 by mendela on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 9:35 am
Over the years Malaysia sent many islamic scholars to Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, etc. to learn Islam.
Many of these Islamicis countries have different ways in teaching Islam. Some are really fanatics and some are moderate.
Once these sholars return to Malaysia, they will preach whatever they learnt from those countries. The saddest thing is nobody dare to say NO to the Islam scholars who have learnt all extreme teaching! Most Malays are very passive, they dare not to confront “authorities”. This is Malays’ culture and trait.
#61 by Libra2 on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 9:40 am
mendela said , “majority of the moderate Muslims in Malaysia don’t stand up and say NO to them.”
Sorry I disagree.
The problem is NON-MUSLIMS who continue to support this regime despite the continuous curtailment on their religious rights.
The non-Muslim support is giving green light to what the UMNO led government to do as it pleases.
The more non-Muslims fear that they will lose out if they do not vote for BN is in fact to allow the regime to trample on your whatever little remaining rights you enjoy.
To those non-Muslim who have never voted or have been voting for BN, all I can say is SHAME ON YOU!
#62 by oknyua on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 9:42 am
Aerolancer, apparently you made some studies on Wahabism. For the sake of our other readers, it started in Arabia itself and for a period of time was generously sponsored a Mid-East Gov’t until later the movement turned against its benefactor. Until today, many forms of extremism could be traced back to Wahabism. Anyway that is another topic.
Printing Bibles in Bahasa is not an issue but the Muslim scholars prohibited the use of certain words (eg Allah), claiming it could confuse the Muslims in this country. In 1981 (I can’t pinpoint to the correct date) it was a hot issue. Christians were at a dilemma because out of the 2.5 million Sarawakians, half are Christians. A decision was made: We continue to use B Melayu & Indonesia Bibles, not for the purpose of defying, but failure of which means the end of Christianity in the State of Sarawak and Sabah. (In any case, we also thought the prison would be too small to accommodate around 2 million Christians in these 2 states). Again, that is another topic.
In regard to the thread at hand, it is the mixture of Politics and Religion that prompted the extremism and polarisation that we see. DarkHorse pointed correctly that religious polarisation actually started with… sadly DSAI during his ABIM days. TDM used his political position to counteract DSAI which only ended when they teamed up. When DSAI and TDM split, Christians literally tried to differentiate one from the other because they were just two sides of the same coin. Finally we “unofficially recognised TDM as the lesser of 2 evils.†TDM had never been kind to Christians, but neither was he unkind. In fact TDM was kind to Buddhist and Ling LS was rather busy opening one temple after another (He is rumoured to be a direct descendant of Christian migrant from Foo Chow province).
The present situation, everyone knows the slide and the inability of AAB to stop it. “mane, mane, takei, ufarsin†Daniel 5.25. That looks like it now.
#63 by k1980 on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 9:54 am
The Flip-Flop Sleepwalking Chameleon
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/410324/the_fine_art_of_the_political_flipflop.html
A politician engages in a flip-flop for one of two reasons. First the politician will flip-flop if poll numbers concerning an issue suddenly take a shift toward the opposite of the original position. The trick is that in this age of the Internet and instant video, there is usually a clear record of a politician taking the opposite of the current position in recent memory….The other reason that a politician engages in the political art of the flip-flop is a desire to be all things to all people. This is a natural desire on the part of some politicians, as their instinct is to maximize their political support. Take any position on any issue and a politician will necessarily annoy a large part of the electorate.
#64 by madmix on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 9:56 am
What do you expect: Respect kafirs? Kafirs are Kafirs and are to be treated as laid down: Convert them, kill them or make them Dhimmis.
#65 by ktteokt on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 10:01 am
[deleted]
#66 by takkan_hilang_india_didunia on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 10:03 am
Dear Malaysians,
When we vote in the next election, please vote for an educated politician or for a dedicated opposition. 50 years of cheats, nonsense,stupidity and taking other races for a free ride must be stopped. Malaysians, don’t be duped over and over again by the current iniative to form a “hal-ehwal department for non Malays” or something of that sort. UMNO will bring out all the tricks from their bags. DON’T FALL FOR THEM. Wake up. Wake up. Fight for your freedom, what are our worth without freedom? How will we answer our children in the future if they ask us “What have we done to combat the in-justice done by the government?”.
Don’t let your discontent subside. Think deeply. Never submit to injustice.
God bless Malaysia.
#67 by democrate on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 10:09 am
CPC leader Hu urges party to unite religious people
WATCH VIDEO
Source: CCTV.com | 12-20-2007 08:16
Special Report: 17th CPC National Congress
CPC leader Hu Jintao has been emphasizing the importance of promoting a harmonious relationship between different religions. At a senior Party meeting, he urged the participants to unite religious people around the party and the government.
At the meeting of the Political Bureau of the Central Committee of the CPC presided over by General Secretary Hu Jintao, participants discussed how to strengthen work on religious affairs.
Hu Jintao, also China’s president said the proper management of religious issues will contribute to social stability and harmony, as well as speed up the process of building a moderately prosperous society. He told the participants that religions will exist in socialist society. He asked the participants to realize the complicated situation of the interacted relations between religion and politics, economy, culture and ethnicity.
The president pointed out that the 17th CPC National Congress urged implementing the CPC’s guiding policies on religion and encouraged people with religious beliefs to play an active role in the development of the economy and society. He said the Party and the government should fully carry out the concept of scientific development, stick to the CPC’s guiding policies on religion, and unite religious people with non-religious people to contribute to economic and social development.
President Hu Jintao has made three proposals to implement religious work under the new situation in China.
First, to stick to the Chinese Communist Party’s guiding policies on religious work, which stresses freedom in religious beliefs, respect for the law concerning religious affairs and perseverance in guiding religions to suit the situation of China’s socialism. People of all religions should be encouraged to play an active role in the country’s social development and work together for a harmonious society.
Hu also pointed out the top task in implementing the party’s religion policies is to unite the religious believers and carry out policies based on human interests. Hu says the party should unite religious people, show respect for them, and utilize their wisdom to realize the common target of making China a well-off society. He says the party should also care about the well being of the religious believers, especially the poor ones, and help them improve their living standards and make them feel cared about by the party and the central government.
Finally, the president called on the party to strengthen team building of religious personnel by selecting qualified religious groups with political knowledge and moral merits. This should help them enhance self-management under the law and guide them to play a positive and leading role in religious affairs. President Hu stressed all levels of government should continue to improve the party’s leadership in religious work to fulfill China’s strategic development.
Any comments ?
#68 by takkan_hilang_india_didunia on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 10:13 am
Dear Lim Kit Siang,
Hi there, I’m supposing that you’re the author for this article of polarisation. I’m not sure your credit given to Dr.Mahathir is justified. What effort did he take to curb the discrimination? He too, was behind the Malay agenda in every effort by the government. I like his vision, and I felt that he was the only one who could have stopped the NEP when it expired. But then he didn’t want the Malays to hate him forever. He may have been brave in the world scene but he too discriminated non Malays at home by not making the necesary changes under his premiership. At the end of the day, in my eyes he is another Malay opportunist.
God bless Malaysia.
#69 by Be fair on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 10:19 am
Come on guys,
show your powers in next year’s election. Don’t let them push us around for 5 more years. This is not a joke. Our lives are at stake here as well as our children’s lives and the life of people to come.
#70 by Bigjoe on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 10:32 am
I have to say that many things about how religion is handled in this country boggles my mind.
I don’t mean just the temple demolition or the non-BM bible.
I meant something like constitutional amendment in 1988 to make sure the Federal Court never rule on non-muslim and muslim affairs. Why the need to change it other than pure power struggle? Were there mass conversion of Malays into Muslims? Was there a lack of facilities or finance for Islam etc.? I never really get it. Even if Dr. M wanted to do Islamization why mess around with the constitution that we now know he did not really understand.
Then these temple demolition thing. You are in for religion and you can’t handle it properly and give fingers to minister? What is that all about?
Frankly, things sounds more like its out of control than a systematic program and that is why people are scared, suspicious and offended. Religious polarization is not just from intolerance but also a failure of minds…
#71 by cheng on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 11:00 am
This Malaysian dilemma is very interesting. Some people are scared of their own language. On one side, some people champion the use of Bahasa Malaysia, mendaulatkan bahasa kebangsaan kita !!! On the other side, some people is scared of the use of it. Now, thanks to Dr. M, people is using English in teaching Mathematics and Science. Wow ! The people can understand English now ! Next, the Bible can only be printed in Chinese and Tamil, maybe Punjabi, so it is OK for “others” to read the Bible. Then, there are more and more non-Chinese studying in Chinese schools. Close all the Chinese schools and ban the Chinese Bible. How about Japanese language ? Many people were sent by JPA to Japan under the Dasar Pandang ke Timur (Look East Policy). Damn, I think all those who went to Japan are now murtad ? Please, don’t be afraid of your own shadow.
I have a friend who is a convert. He told me that some people told him not the read the English translation (terjermahan) of the Quran. Itu Mat Salleh tak tepat punya. My friend asked those people, who do you think can translate the Quran better ? An Arab who is a native Arabic speaker and fluent in English, or those people at the Jabatan Perdana Menteri ? I guess the answer is Jabatan Perdana Menteri. What do you think ?
#72 by madmix on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 11:18 am
Cheng: The clergy from time immemorial has always wanted to hold power over the followers; so they want religious texts to be in a language that they alone will interpret. The followers will have to consult them for advice as they cannot understand the texts themselves. Hence no translations.
#73 by 1eyecls on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 11:47 am
i m sickenning of seeing UMNO reactions on every issues!
their cronies like MCA,MIC,GERAKAN,PPP,BERSATU,blablabla,the key sentence is’ SILENT IS GOLDEN! ‘
Our Corruption Index is going from bad to worst,no surprises cos all the CJs are their gang!
We dont hv to go to universities to watch,around our neighbourhoods,once the praying time is on,we’ll encounter traffic jams,sound interferences,time wastages………….who the hell dont get affected?if they hv a sense of religion tolerance,such issues wud not be so serious,at least cud b minimised!
#74 by 1eyecls on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 11:55 am
you noe wat is going to happen to all these imams?
read this story,you’ll noe:
a priest and a bus driver died together,God sent the driver to heaven,and the priest to hell!
the priest was very2 unhappy,but GOD told him:”the moment you pray,all the followers fell asleep,but when the driver starts the engine,everybody prays!”
#75 by sani on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 12:51 pm
YB
On this Holy day, i would seize the opportunity to wish all my Muslim friends, Selamat Hari Raya Korban.
As far as i am concern, there must be a separation between the state + “the church”. Religion should never be institutionalized as well.
When my children were born, i was force to declared them as Buddhist, since i am Chinese + an atheist then. How on earth do i know what faith they would like to subcribe to later?
Religion had cost many wars between brothers; Bosnians + Serbs, Jews + Palestians, Indians + Pakistanis, English + Irish, Sunnis + Shiaks, Catholics + Protestants etcs etcs.
I believe that Religion should teaches good to all man kind or you would be betraying God, no matter what brand of God you professes to.
#76 by sj on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 2:05 pm
“He told me that some people told him not the read the English translation (terjermahan) of the Quran. Itu Mat Salleh tak tepat punya.” by cheng
You know, it never dawns on them that, they can do cross reference and ask question on what is accurate translation and what is not accurate. They swallow all the crap spewed by the goverment and “que sera sera” for the rest of their live. If that is the case, I dont care what Dasar Pandang Ke Bulan or what not you have, you will never progress because you need people to think for you. Losers that is what I call.
#77 by k1980 on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 2:43 pm
The real reason why “Mat salleh tak tepat punya”
http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/john-wycliffe.html
John Wycliffe was well-known throughout Europe for his opposition to the teaching of the organized Church, which he believed to be contrary to the Bible. With the help of his followers, called the Lollards, and his assistant Purvey, and many other faithful scribes, Wycliffe produced dozens of English language manuscript copies of the scriptures. They were translated out of the Latin Vulgate, which was the only source text available to Wycliffe. The Pope was so infuriated by his teachings and his translation of the Bible into English, that 44 years after Wycliffe had died, he ordered the bones to be dug-up, crushed, and scattered in the river!
#78 by akarmalaysian on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 2:51 pm
forget abt wat this PM has said or wat hes gonna say.he always seems to forget wat hes talking abt and most probably he doesnt even knw wat hes talking abt.mostly now the issue of ketuanan melayu has gotten into some inviduals idiotic head so much that they dun even knw wat world they are living in.look at those so called leaders in our government today…none and not a single one has done anything outstanding to really make all malaysians proud…except wasting public funds to do unnecessary feats.and yet they can claim to the world their stupid achievements…and thinking they are so clever till they dun even knw they are just a laughing stock to the world.we knw its hard to please everyone at the same time…but whn so many people hv come out to show their discontentment out in the streets including the the lawyers…then thr must be something reslly wrong with the government today.we dun see such masses in the past.its only this one term this new leadership has taken over….with all the subsidies of fuel been cut off these 4 years…whr the hell has all the money gone to?millions gone to send just 1 man to space…and how much ar for the monsoon cup?…and how much hv all these idiots really pocketed?and most of the times these people will use religion and race to counter their disgusting pride…while their own people are made suckers.
#79 by Bigjoe on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 2:51 pm
I have spent many hollidays abroad, Christmas, Easter, All Saints Day, Good Friday in many Western countries , Deepavalli in India, Hanukah and Passover in Isreal, All sort of festivals in Taiwan, Japan.
In all these countries, they certaintly don’t have these open houses and other activities we have here. However, none of these countries also feature so heavily and dominance of news of politician activities during these occasion. Their hollidays are celebration of communities, family, friends, neigbours – a lot of which we don’t have in this country.
These pride of our festivals – a lof of it state or politically sponsored, I wonder how much would be if the state or politicians don’t get involved. Then we know how much these festivals we have are really worth it.
#80 by burn on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 3:20 pm
“I asked one Muslim why they object to pork being served at public functions and places where Muslim are present but allow beef (which Hindus and some Buddhists don’t consume) to be served at such functions.
His reply – beef is clean but pork is dirty. He side stepped the religious sensitivity issues and respect other people’s beliefs…”
it all boils down to mentality and the way they are being brought up and taught. i have friends, sharing same table to makan without any problem.
i have another friend, who took me straight to a chinese shop at taipan subang to order hokkien mee. i was stunt at first, but she being an open minded, say, this is food too, isn’t it! luckily she have darker skin, and wish that we speak english there while chit chatting, but sometimes bahasa pun terkeluar. even the tukang masak pun terbeliak mata! to her, it’s god given food.
then there’s another one, who love to eat ba kut teh, he love the oil fat meat… this is what i call, enjoy life while you still can.
#81 by Mr Born In Malaysia. on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 4:17 pm
In Penang on the 16/12/2007, during a meeting with the indian community leaders in his parlimentary constiuency of Kepala Batas, Abdullah said Malaysians should deal with one another respectfully and not hurl wild accusations and he could not afford to allow feelings of hatred to spread among the different communities.
In my opinion , the New Economy Policy (NEP) with quota system siding just the Malays which was introduced since 1970 by the government is the main cause of creating feelings of hatred to spread among the fifferent communities.
Imagine being a Malay ,Chinese or Indian who were together born in Malaysia the same year or day but the Chinese and indians grow up to know that they are graded as non-bumis as government say so and without the special rights the Malays are having but everyone who lives in Malaysia is contributing equally or paying the same percentage of taxes.
#82 by greenacre on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 4:33 pm
Malaysians not only polarized but also poles apart.
#83 by k1980 on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 4:54 pm
The result of having corrupt politicians in power
http://www.asiasentinel.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=945&Itemid=35
The government has approved the no-bid contract with Gamuda-MMC for RM 12.5 billion to double-track the country’s main north-south railway line, a 329 km run from the central city of Ipoh to the Thai border…..every family in Malaysia would have to shoulder an average burden of RM 2,500 to pay for this folly. If this money were spent for other purposes, the government could complete any one of the following feats:
Plant 1.2 million hectares of mature oil palm capable of generating annual revenues of RM 10 billion (5 million tons of palm oil @ RM 2,000 per ton), or
Build 400,000 low cost housing units, capable of housing to 2 million people, or
Establish 100 medium sized institutions of higher learning, capable of taking in 300,000 students for tertiary education, or
Build 1,200 km of expressways.
#84 by kanthanboy on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 5:06 pm
“I’m not a Christian but what is so wrong about priting the Bible in Bahasa? Perhaps they should elaborate more on that…â€noblepath
The Bible has been printed in more than 250 languages. Malaysian Government is declaring to the world that Bahasa is inadequate as a language for Bible translation. This UMNO government has shortchanged Bahasa. They are the real traitors of Bahasa Melayu.
#85 by kanthanboy on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 5:47 pm
“…Printing Bibles in Bahasa is not an issue but the Muslim scholars prohibited the use of certain words (eg Allah), claiming it could confuse the Muslims in this country…â€oknyua
Are these Muslim scholars trying to teach Christians how to translate the meaning of the Bible into Bahasa? If they don’t agree with the translation they are always welcomed to print another Bahasa version based on their understanding of the Bible. They can call it “Dewan Bahasa dan Pustaka†version. Just like there are over 10 versions of English Bible. It is up to the people which version they prefer. If the shoe fits you, you wear it.
#86 by Jeffrey on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 6:20 pm
YB, Is there typo omission in last paragraph which should read “The Prime Minister should immediately address these obstacles to greater national unity, so that Malaysia can revert to the previous position where religious polarization was a (NOT SO?) serious problem in nation-building…�
[Jeffrey, thanks for pointing out the mistake. It should read: “The Prime Minister should immediately address these obstacles to greater national unity, so that Malaysia can revert to the previous position where religious polarization was not so serious a problem in nation-building…â€
This does not mean that the seeds of the serious religious polarisation today did not start with Mahathir’s time – as Jeffrey has pointed out.
I should confess that for many months I have been having a problem with reading, especially the computer, and coupled with the pressure of time, discerning visitors will notice many mistakes on my posts. In fact, I have been wondering whether I should continue blogging because of the daily eye strain. I appreciate visitors for pointing out mistakes on the blog. -Kit]
Actually religious polarization was already serious problem in nation-building in the previous position if “previous position†refers to time of Mahathir’s administration : his policies of Islamisation for last 22 years contributed substantially to the polarization of the society on religious lines, as raised by Darkhorse and elaborated upon by oknyua in his postings at 09:42:5.
TDM knew Malaysia could not escape the winds of change blowing from Middle East arising from worldwide resurgence of fundamental political Islam started by Ayatollah Khomeini’s successful Iranian Revolution.
As UMNO’s main constituency was/is of a cultural identity inextricably tied up with religion, to ignore and not take pre-emptive measures against and to meet the challenge of this resurgence was to invite the prospects of losing political ground to Islamists rallied by PAS.
The strategy was to neutralize the resurgence by (1) competing against it in a state controlled way by infusing Islamic values into administration, pouring more state funds to build places of worship, encourage Islamic institutions like Islamic insurance and banking, promote Islamic education by establishing more religious schools and sending students abroad to take up religious studies and generally show solidarity with the world’s Islamic organisation and countries and counter Western rhetoric by championing international Islamic causes with the view to shoring up domestic support (here it is saying, what are you complaining about when I am committed to same cause and in fact doing more?); (i) co-opt Islamist advocates like Anwar Ibrahim to join the administration, so that they shared power so that they would defend the same side that buttered their bread and (iii) controlled repression against the most extreme expression of this resurgence that took to or evinced potential to deviate from mainstream religious values and to take to violence and militancy like in the case of the Memali/Ibrahim Libya, Al Al Arquam crackdowns and also incarcerating Jemaah Islamiya ‘s advocates and militants under the ISA.
Because many Islamists have joined the administration at all levels – in local councils, civil service, courts and other institutions etc in the last 20 years – it is natural that when interfacing with the multiracial public, a lot of friction is created when Islamic point of views and values are asserted by funamentalist inclined public servants which the other side will see it as infringing their constitutional rights including freedom to religion setting forth a self feeding cycle of polarization along religious lines.
Had a leader evinced a force of character and determination (as TDM to an extent did) to stem, telling off and curtail too exuberant and excessive expression of religious bigotry or over-zealotry, some semblance of restraint and ensuing peace could prevail but otherwise in the case of the opposite, when or if political authority is perceived to be wavering and playing to gallery, those with passionate beliefs to assert their religious agenda will do so without qualms, restraints and reservations.
This perception of weakness of ultimate political leadership, whether true or not, fans all sorts of assertions of power and advancement of separate or disparate agendas from different groups and these are not confined to just religious groups but also NGOs of all sorts of political shades and coloration, regardles whether their agendas are morally defensible or not (Hindraf is one such example as are other groups against Article 11!).
Everyone then becomes bold to launch their private agendas if they perceive the Center does not evince strength, will and capability to assert its will and hold things together and strike its course! :)
#87 by negarawan on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 7:42 pm
Now UMNO is trying to reserve the Malay language and the word “Allah” for Muslims only. UMNO is destroying the racial and religious cohesion and unity of this country by their sheer arrogance, ignorance, and corruption. Abdullah Badawi is a big liar and betrayer to the non-muslims and non-bumis. He doesn’t know what he is saying and he doesn’t mean whatever he says. Shame on you Badawi for allowing and promoting all these religious and racial extremism. I voted for you in the last GE and I thoroughly regret it now. My family and myself will not repeat the same mistake again, and in the future. We will not vote for a person who has lied and betrayed us, not once, but a thousand times.
#88 by Earshot on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 9:29 pm
With the case of the church weekly newsletter discussed last night, even if it is argued that the various Articles of Constitution and the array of Acts would deem the exclusion of the Bahasa Malaysia section as condition for approval of printing permit as justified, it is undeniable that religious tolerance, what more harmony, in the country is approaching the state of zilch.
Christians, if not all non-Muslims, are increasingly concerned of a not at all new but definitely worrying trend especially in the recent
acceleration of religious intolerance cases. What may have started as an innocuous removal of a cross in a school badge has
mutated to double standards in enforcing traffic regulations in the vicinity of mosques and churches to ‘body snatching’ to the destruction of Hindu temples to the Kudat case to the enforcing of language restriction in a church’s newsletter. Was it that rampant
say two or three decades ago? Will this eventually morph to ‘an encroachment beast’? I shudder at the thought of the ever-
mounting obstacles younger generations have to overcome for them to practise the religion of their choice.
Under darker clouds of doubt that this trend can be reversed, can Malaysians not expect worsening religious polarisation? Can Malaysians be proud when the leaders of the country proclaim Malaysia an exemplary case of religious tolerance?
By the way, undergrad2, the “Something tells me you’re not quite the layman you claim to be…..” is just a misplaced hunch; no innuendo or criticism intended here. I am just a plain old retiree and never went to law school.
#89 by ENDANGERED HORNBILL on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 9:48 pm
Mahathir is a pathetic failure with promoting religious tolerance and freedom in this country.
Pak Lah merely made it worse by allowing “littlun napoleons” to have free sway under his hadhari program, interpreting things each in their own way. As in so many other areas, pak lah has simply lost control or was never in control in the first place. He is a great guy for mouthing plain-nothings and in delivering absolute-nothings when the crunch comes.
Najib said on prime-time TV that there is no need for a religious department for non-Muslim religions as they are not the official religions in Malaysia.
Questions:
1) Does this mean that the national budget for religion annually goes exclusively to Islamic activities only? (People’s perception – yes, it is).
2) Does this mean that all other religions will not get any support, financial and otherwise (eg. building approvals) from the authorities for their places of worship and religious activities?
3) PM says – OKT, SAmy, Dompok have always been in charge of Buddist, Hindu & Christian matters all along? Since when? This is latest news posy-Hindraf? Who were in charge of Buddist, Hindu, Christian affairs during TDM’s time? President of MCA, MIC and Dompok’s party? Are these religious societies or political parties? Are the Bahais taken care of by Gerakan and Sikkhism taken care of by PBS or what now? What about PAS and UMNO for Islam? DAP for Islam, Christainity and Buddists too? PKR for Islam, Buddihism, Christianity, Bahaism, Sikkhism et.al?
4) Shouldn’t we have a clear separation between state and religion? Let the private sector take care of religion and let the government run the secular matters. Mix spiritualism and secularism and we get a hotch-potch of spells depending who are the witches in the plays.
5) Is it possible for non-Muslims to make their contributions for religious purposes tax-deductible as they would like to support their own God or deities since they cannot depend on the government to feed their deities, so to speak? Is it possible for a non-Muslim to conscientiously object to their personal income taxes being used for Islamic affairs even though it is the official religion since to do so may “displease” their God since they are not Muslims? The issue is the “divide” between tolerance and overt support.
6) Is it also possible for the government to properly account for all their tax revenues so that Muslims will not be offended by having to use funds from sin taxes such as cigarettes, alcohol or gambling which are major tax contributors in this country? This is not impossible with modern digitization of data. It is also necessary because it is unconscionable for practising Muslims to be so offended by the government’s lack of sensitivity in this matter.
#90 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 10:26 pm
Duly noted.
#91 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 10:36 pm
It is apparent to all that the government is less tolerant of diversity especially post 9/11. The lack of religious tolerance has apparently become a serious issue.
The question is not so much whether it is wrong as it is how to stem the tide so to speak and regain what we as Malaysians had before and have now lost – religious tolerance and the approach to issues of diversity as a source of strength rather than weakness.
#92 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 10:45 pm
“TDM knew Malaysia could not escape the winds of change blowing from Middle East arising ….” Jeffrey
So like the crafty and shrewd politician that he was (and still is) he rode on the winds of change! He drummed the beats of narrow Malay nationalism on his way up the political ladder just as he drummed the beats of multiculturalism and pluralism on his way out.
Talk about Indians being opportunists. Isn’t he part Indian?
#93 by Yong Chee keong on Friday, 21 December 2007 - 12:32 am
Surprising to read about the Catholic paper, HERALD. In which country will you find a government trying to suppress its own National Language. Is it because of the use of the word Allah?
I studied in two different schools in Selangor and every week we were required to sing the State Anthem which has the word Allah in its lyrics. Have I been mistaken all along that this refers only to the God of the Muslims? Or is there more than one God?
When I was studying overseas, I lived in a Hostel with students from all over the world, of various ethnic origins and religious backgrounds. Those from the Middle East whether Christians or Muslims would greet each other “Allahuakbar” when they see each other in the morning (a kind of Good morning).
Can a government take control or restrict the use of a language? After all, Allah is an Arabic word (not BM) that existed even before Islam appeared on the face of the earth. Our country will be the laughing stock of the world, even Islamic countries.
#94 by KS R on Friday, 21 December 2007 - 12:35 am
Today onwards everyone should or write letters to the Government department in Chinese, Tamil or English language. Because if you write in Bahasa your permit will not be approved or the person sitting do not know how to read bahasa. What is the
MIC, MCA and other small kunci party doing. PM should pull up his socks and do not place uncivilized or uneducated monkey sitting in the department who could not difference shade the Good the Bad and the ugly.
Bayar under table sahajalah semua lulus
#95 by HJ Angus on Friday, 21 December 2007 - 1:54 am
In the good old days, it seems religious leaders got on well with state rulers until the politicians got round to using religion to further their aims like proclaiming Malaysia to be an “Islamic nation”
If you come to the Church of the Immaculate Conception in JB there are 2 plaques, in Chinese and English, presented by the late Sultan Iskandar to honor a foreign priest.
Sadly things appear to be getting worse and not better with “Civilisational Islam” when discussions by the Section 11 Group were banned.
http://malaysiawatch3.blogspot.com/2007/12/all-we-want-for-christmas.html
#96 by AhPek on Friday, 21 December 2007 - 2:39 am
This mamak is a great chameleon and has a forked tongue second to none.And indeed this opportunist on his way up the political ladder presents himself more Malay than a Malay!
#97 by aerolancer on Friday, 21 December 2007 - 3:37 am
Dear democrat, if what your quotation is true to its words, then it is the most florid speech in saying “Ignore the concept of democracy. Politically controlled religious understanding is a must in China. We want you to work hard to contribute to the wellbeing of the elite social economic group� Perhaps it is their way of stating their handling in the recent interference in Tibet and the unconventional view of Chinese Catholicism by the Vatican.
#98 by DiaperHead on Friday, 21 December 2007 - 6:57 am
It is time to drop all references to religion from the Constitution – or die trying!
#99 by laifoong on Friday, 21 December 2007 - 7:22 am
i love life too much. i’m not dying for that crap!
#100 by Jeffrey on Friday, 21 December 2007 - 8:22 am
“…//…In fact, I have been wondering whether I should continue blogging because of the daily eye strain…//..†– YB Kit.
You may or may not be joking about this “wondering†but your mere mention of its possibility is disconcerting enough to many regular visitors/readers/supporters and prolific contributors of this blog – Undergrad2 for example – wondering whether if and when that happens, whether it might also be time for them to visit and consult a psychiatrist to see how to address the related withdrawal symptoms of blog/internet/computer addiction!
#101 by undergrad2 on Friday, 21 December 2007 - 8:27 am
To: Jeffrey
So please refrain from correcting inadvertent errors or Kit will stop blogging and we’ll blame you! Where will we go to read then?? Malaysia-Today is mostly gossip. RPK has been reading tea leaves. We want something more than that!
[No, no, mistakes must be corrected. That is a completely different issue altogether. – Kit}
#102 by DarkHorse on Friday, 21 December 2007 - 8:36 am
Kit,
I think it’s the glare that is causing the strain to your eyes. You could get those screens produced by 3M to block and reduce the glare. That should reduce the strain to your eyes.
#103 by negarawan on Friday, 21 December 2007 - 8:37 am
The UMNO led “government” does not want to listen to public complaints, especially coming from non-muslims and non-bumis. Every complaint will get typical responses in the controlled media like “we will act on it”, “we are listening”, “you must use the legal channel”, “we are fair to everyone”, “we will help you”, but they are all blatant lies to give a false impression to the public that everything is OK in the country, that they are doing a great job. This is the most incompetent, dishonest, and corrupted “government”. Opressed citizens will continue to take matters to the streets as there are no more avenues for justice and fairness in this country. We ask for serious help from member countries of the United Nations council for human rights, especially the US and EU, and the international media to expose the apartheid policies in Malaysia. We also ask them to impose international sanctions, overseas asset freezing, and travel restrictions on the corrupt UMNO “leaders”.
#104 by cheeyong on Friday, 21 December 2007 - 8:50 am
Hi Kit Siang, politically aware net citzens value your contributions in blogging. And not too far fetched to say that you put many younger bloggers out there to shame with your precise and daily updated contents in your blog.
I am sure your daily scheduele is very punishing and let me say again with utmost respect, good job Mr Kit. My full respect to you. And this coming election, let us vote for DAP.
#105 by Jeffrey on Friday, 21 December 2007 - 8:53 am
Yes, I think prolonged use of computer may cause ‘eye strain’ but it is something that may be substantially mitigated by correcting workstation conditions, posture, stress-relieving lenses prescribed specifically for computer operation, special anti-glare screens, eye exercises etc.
However the first question to determine is whether typo omissions or even spelling mistakes and grammatical errors of postings are actually caused by eyestrain.
I have wondered about this as most of my postings are admittedly strewn or replete with these errors that have earned a rebuke from our Lim Kam Put who had commented that my writing was “atrocious†for being hard to read and he held me responsible for being “careless” as in niot editing before posting rather than poor English!
Now eye strain is the culprit if these errors are directly attributable to blurred vision or difficulty of focusing on what is appearing on the screen – but commonly it may not be the case.
Sometimes, when the mind is active and thoughts are racing far ahead than the typing could cope, errors may occur.
We tend not to check/edit thoroughly what is typed when time schedule is tight and million other things are competing and awaiting attention.
Other times even when we type what we want to post in another Microsoft Words platform, edit the errors before ‘cut-and-paste’ transfer of it to your Window Press posting window/box, 2 other things may occur:
1. sometimes a word like (say) “not†may not be “transferred†which may not be noticed if posting is immediately sent;
2. but ever very occasionally I also noticed that after editing and posting, what appears on the screen has omitted a word or two that has been typed in the comment box!
If this were true and not imagined, how does one explain that?
I wonder if it may have something to do with how the Word Press Platform, that underpins this blog, operates.
Maybe some more IT savvy readers here could elucidate.
#106 by Jeffrey on Friday, 21 December 2007 - 9:01 am
Having said that, it is also true that most engaged in the blog are more inclined to just post what they want to express, often in a hurry, without wanting to be to meticulous about typographical omissions or even grammatical errors – as postings are not expected to be word and granmmar perfect for an English test – relying on the implicit indulgence of readers that this is a shortcoming for which most posters/commenters share the same guilt to which no great importance is attached.
#107 by Jeffrey on Friday, 21 December 2007 - 9:03 am
There you are “wanting to be to meticulous” should read “wanting to be TOO meticulous” – which has nothing to do with eye strain as I see very clearly now but it still happens!
#108 by shaolin on Friday, 21 December 2007 - 9:35 am
To 2ndclasscitizen,
In order to achieve Bumi status. First, you must marry a
Malay girl(Muslim). Only the 3rd generation of your siblings
can then(after many amendments of Syriah law) enjoy full
benefits as a Bumiputra.
Simply by converting to Muslim now enjoy ZERO benefits!!!
So if you intend to marry Malay girl as Converted Muslim,
you better wake up ….!!!
#109 by HJ Angus on Friday, 21 December 2007 - 9:46 am
I agree that mistakes if noticed should be corrected.
back to topic…
To be fair to AAB he did not declare Malaysia an “Islamic nation” but simply carried out the same slogan.
I guess UMNO sees that this concept has some advantages to gain votes in the Malay heartland where the controlled media spin their usual BN stories.
The latest conditions can be considered a form of religious persecution.
http://malaysiawatch3.blogspot.com/2007/12/religious-persecution-in-malaysia.html
Or maybe it is just a scare tactic. Let the stoopid bloggers whip people into a frenzy and then approve the permit w/o conditions and then proclaim they are tolerant towards all religions.
Gullible folks in the churches will then thank God for the good leaders they have.
#110 by oknyua on Friday, 21 December 2007 - 10:12 am
Hj Angus, the Shah Alam Catholic Church was initially given approval due to a remark from the late Sultan – something to the effect that he wanted Shah Alam to reflect multiculturism. There are more stories about Churches in Shah Alam, but they are not for this blog.
I consider myself as a “watcher” for religious trend for the past 20 years. Definitely we are not better or worse than what happen overseas. Seeing churches destoyed and closed is so common that we do not know whether to thank God or man.
On a serious note Hj Angus, Christians are not gullible. Praying for the governing authority is biblical. Secondly, each year we observe the 40-day prayer and fasting for this nation pray against corruption, injustice, crimes. Next year, join us.
#111 by Leo on Friday, 21 December 2007 - 11:24 am
They say, if you dun like it. You can leave.
I say, I will. Just see me leave.
Don’t call brain drain at the end of the day.
#112 by undergrad2 on Friday, 21 December 2007 - 11:58 am
“I have wondered about this as most of my postings are admittedly strewn or replete with these errors that have earned a rebuke from our Lim Kam Put…” Jeffrey
No, that was a case of intellectual constipation and a brain freeze – not yours.
#113 by fairplay500 on Friday, 21 December 2007 - 12:20 pm
First it was the hindus now christians what is next buddhist then orang asli beliefs? Badawi an insult to islam…
#114 by DarkHorse on Friday, 21 December 2007 - 11:36 pm
Careful there undergrad!
Or else limkamput might emerge out of the woodwork to clobber Jeffrey and hijack the thread again, plunging this blog to new depths. He is still doing that in the earlier threads.
#115 by undergrad2 on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 12:32 am
Jeffrey: “….many regular visitors/readers/supporters and prolific contributors of this blog – Undergrad2 for example – wondering whether if and when that happens, whether it might also be time for them to visit and consult a psychiatrist ….”
You’re darn right, Jeffrey!
I’ve only just last week seen my doctor about possible withdrawal symptoms. Do you think I should send the bill to YB Kit?
#116 by limkamput on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 12:38 am
No, that was a case of intellectual constipation and a brain freeze – not yours. undergrad2
What is this for?
#117 by limkamput on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 12:41 am
Careful there undergrad!
Or else limkamput might emerge out of the woodwork to clobber Jeffrey and hijack the thread again, plunging this blog to new depths. He is still doing that in the earlier threads.
i am still doing? can you be honest with yourself at least once, and for the sake of this blog. I have seen you and others cobbering Earnest for no good reason and yet you are here talking like a saint.
#118 by limkamput on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 12:42 am
The same reason why having Bibles translated to Bahasa Malaysia is an attempt to proselytize the Muslims – which is seen as a contravention of Article 11(1) as qualified by (4) and (5) of the Constitution – Undergrad2
Hmmm, may be BM is not the national language of non Muslim in Malaysia.
#119 by limkamput on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 12:44 am
A “cooling off†period is necessary. What do they say about someone entering the kitchen and not being able to stand the heat?? Do not enter the kitchen! – DarkHorse
I think it is not fair to bedevil the Hindraf leaders the way you did. It is too simplistic, to my mind, to attribute the increased racism or parochialism to Hindraf action recently. It has been there for a long time. Somehow, we have bought in to the idea that we mustn’t confront and we must whisper and take everything in our strike. It is not as I see it. Never mind the initial backlash. It is about time. Do we want to wait for another 50 years.
#120 by limkamput on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 12:47 am
I’m not a Christian but what is so wrong about priting the Bible in Bahasa? Perhaps they should elaborate more on that…- noblepath
Now the government says the word Allah is used. According to Deputy Internal Security Minister, only Muslims can use the word Allah. So the next question is would the Herald be allowed to print if the word Allah is removed and substituted with Tuhan. If so, would the Catholic Church accept this?
To me, it is about politics and the anxiety of seeing its political base eroded. Think about it, it is really an irony. How long must Malay leaders keep their own people ignorant and destitute in order to stay in power?
#121 by limkamput on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 12:48 am
But while Bibles are written in English, Bibles written in Bahasa makes nonsense of Article 11 (4) and Article 160(2) – Undergrad2
Sorry, why so? You say so?
#122 by limkamput on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 12:49 am
Even today’s religious event was originated from the bible. Can the muslims be more origin for a while and not be a copycat? How to progress if we just know how to copy only? – Mickey01
Heh, I think you DON’T want to go there!
#123 by limkamput on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 12:50 am
They believe in the same prophets of the Old Testament. Who is copying whom? The Christians copied the Jews?? Judaism is about 3,000 years old – Diaperhead
True and false; The old testament is always part of Christianity.
#124 by limkamput on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 12:51 am
What is the qualification to be a bumiputra? Is there a clear cut policy? –2ndclasscitizen
There is a constitutional definition of the word Malay. And it is not based on race (blood). Can’t remember which article, ask Undergrad2.
#125 by DarkHorse on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 1:01 am
“To me, it is about politics and the anxiety of seeing its political base eroded. Think about it, it is really an irony. How long must Malay leaders keep their own people ignorant and destitute in order to stay in power?”
To the learned professor of politics, everything is about politics and nothing is about the law! I thought undergrad went to great length to educate you on that issue!
The commentator who asked what is wrong with having the Bible printed in Bahasa, is asking a legitimate question. The reason why he is asking it is because he is apparently not sufficiently acquainted with the Federal Constitution 1957 – that is law in case you miss it!
Of course, everything has to do with politics. The fact that you have an attap school type education and that Lee Wang Yeng does not is about politics, and the fact that you write bad English and have poor powers of reasoning is also about politics. Had DAP been running the government you’re not likely to be all these – ceteris paribus.
#126 by DarkHorse on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 1:06 am
“True and false; The old testament is always part of Christianity.” limkamput
Did anybody say it is not?? Diaper certainly did not say that if you read his posting. But then you’re too busy battling your own ego.
#127 by limkamput on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 1:15 am
The commentator who asked what is wrong with having the Bible printed in Bahasa, is asking a legitimate question. The reason why he is asking it is because he is apparently not sufficiently acquainted with the Federal Constitution 1957 – that is law in case you miss it! – DARkhourse
And i am asking why Bibles written in Bahasa makes nonsense of Article 11 (4) and Article 160(2). What is wrong with my question? If you have the answer, please tell me, because i want to know why because of article 11(4) and 160 (2) Bible can not be printed in BM.
#128 by DarkHorse on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 1:15 am
limkamput,
Laifoong has made an allegation about you! Don’t you want to rebut his allegation? It is serious and, I believe, many readers are interested to know if you’re an impostor.
#129 by DarkHorse on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 1:20 am
“…because i want to know why because of article 11(4) and 160 (2) Bible can not be printed in BM.” limkamput
Because then it would constitute proselytizing involving Malays who are deemed Muslims by the Constitution. That’s not just politics but is politics and law.
#130 by limkamput on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 1:20 am
Darkhorse,
First you people like to quote the constitution like a parrot, never mind the constitution has been amended beyond recognition. Second, what makes you people think that your interpretation of the constitution (for whatever that is left) is correct. You think you people are great constitution law experts, or just a phua tam sai (if don’t know this term ask your hokkien Chinese friend).
#131 by limkamput on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 1:26 am
You, laifoong, diaperhead and whoever can assume and say whatever you want – an imposter, a malay, or whatever. Why do i care? I have never asked or accused who you people are.
#132 by DarkHorse on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 1:27 am
“First you people like to quote the constitution like a parrot..”
Of course anybody quoting anything would sound to you like a parrot!
“…what makes you people think that your interpretation of the constitution ….is correct.”
What the court thinks is important. What you and I think is not important.
#133 by limkamput on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 1:30 am
Quote me which court and which precedent that said so, i need to know now.
#134 by DarkHorse on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 1:31 am
“To me, it is about politics and the anxiety of seeing its political base eroded. Think about it, it is really an irony. How long must Malay leaders keep their own people ignorant and destitute in order to stay in power?†LIMKAMPUTT
To the learned professor of politics, everything is about politics and nothing is about the law! I thought undergrad went to great length to educate you on that issue!
The commentator who asked what is wrong with having the Bible printed in Bahasa, is asking a legitimate question. The reason why he is asking it is because he is apparently not sufficiently acquainted with the Federal Constitution 1957 – that is law in case you miss it!
Of course, everything has to do with politics. The fact that you have an attap school type education and that Lee Wang Yeng does not is about politics, and the fact that you write bad English and have poor powers of reasoning is also about politics. Had DAP been running the government you’re not likely to be all these – ceteris paribus.
#135 by DarkHorse on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 1:33 am
“Quote me which court and which precedent that said so, i need to know now” LIMKAMPUTT
The library is close. It is 1.30 in the morning.
#136 by limkamput on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 1:34 am
And if indeed the court said so, why are we accepting it as fait accompli? Then why are you people here talking about independence of judiciary and transparency etc. Why waste time because everything has been decided and there is nothing we can do because the constitution said so.
#137 by DarkHorse on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 1:34 am
Of course, everything has to do with politics. The fact that you have an attap school type education and that Lee Wang Yeng does not is about politics, and the fact that you write bad English and have poor powers of reasoning is also about politics. Had DAP been running the government you’re not likely to be all these – ceteris paribus.
#138 by limkamput on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 1:35 am
never mind i can wait, you can tell me tomorrow.
#139 by DarkHorse on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 1:37 am
“And if indeed the court said so, why are we accepting it…” LIMKAMPUTT
Because we don’t make the laws – Parliament does and the courts interpret the law?
“…why are you people here talking about independence of judiciary and transparency etc.” LIMKAMPUTT
Because judiciary should be what judiciary is supposed to be i.e. independent from executive interference.
#140 by limkamput on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 1:38 am
others are reading and judging. you go ahead and continue with your insult. it is ok, because you don’t owe me and i don’t owe you. you go on.
#141 by DarkHorse on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 1:40 am
“Never mind I can wait, you can tell me tomorrow.” LIMKAMPUTT
I don’t think it is any good! I would tell somebody else though.
#142 by DarkHorse on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 1:40 am
Good night.
#143 by limkamput on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 1:41 am
rightly i should said earlier, if you take everything the court has decided, why come here and lamenting about lack of judiciary independence, corruption and lack of transparency. Didn’t all these made the decisons of court suspected.
#144 by DarkHorse on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 1:42 am
To: Llimkamputt
Of course, everything has to do with politics. The fact that you have an attap school type education and that Lee Wang Yeng does not is about politics, and the fact that you write bad English and have poor powers of reasoning is also about politics. Had DAP been running the government you’re not likely to be all these – ceteris paribus.
#145 by limkamput on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 1:45 am
yes parliament makes law, i think i know that. so we “accept” every law the parliament made. if that is the case, why bother to come here? why talk non stop about corruption and racism in BN which make those laws.
#146 by DarkHorse on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 1:52 am
I don’t remember the Constitution saying it is OK to be corrupt!
#147 by DarkHorse on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 1:56 am
What Parliament does is to pass laws. You don’t have to accept the law. We call that breaking the law in case you don’t know!
Breaking the law has its consequences. If you’re prepared to go to jail for breaking the law, who is to say you should not?
#148 by DarkHorse on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 2:06 am
“Why talk non stop about corruption and racism in BN which make those laws.” limkamputt
Because we want to change the government, sir.
#149 by limkamput on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 2:14 am
Because we want to change the government, sir – darkhorse
Oh sure we can change the government by docilely following whatever laws and decisions dished out by BN. In politics, no venture no gain. Don’t you ever insult the HINDRAF leaders again.
#150 by limkamput on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 2:17 am
Breaking the law has its consequences. If you’re prepared to go to jail for breaking the law, who is to say you should not? –
darkhorse
The fact that you and I dare not, please don’t assume that others will not, and don’t you ever insult those who are brave enough to do it. Don’t insult HINDRAF leaders again.
#151 by DarkHorse on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 2:30 am
“The fact that you and I dare not, please don’t assume …” limkamputt
Sir, I never assumed anything. You did, sir!
#152 by DarkHorse on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 2:36 am
When I said the HINDRAF 5 misled their supporters, I was expressing my opinion protected by Article 10 of our Constitution. When I said there is a need for a ‘cooling off’ period to allow tempers to cool down and the ISA may just serve this purpose if nothing else, I was expressing my opinion protected again under Article 10, sir.
If you would like to deny me of my freedom to express my opinion you’d need to amend the Constitution, sir – and make it law.
#153 by limkamput on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 2:38 am
never assumed anything. You did – darkhorse
Really? Didn’t you assume that I will respond to your instigation with regard to I being an impostor?
#154 by limkamput on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 2:42 am
Sure, the constitution provides you with lots of free speech, your article 10 and all. Go ahead exercise your right like the Hindraf leaders because you got free speech ma. Why insult them instead.
#155 by limkamput on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 2:45 am
cooling off’ period to allow tempers to cool down and the ISA may just serve this purpose if nothing else, I was expressing my opinion protected again under Article 10 – darkhorse
Sure the same cooling period was also applicable after the UMNO general assembly last year mah. Where were you, hiding under the bed was it?
#156 by DarkHorse on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 2:46 am
“Sure, the constitution provides you with lots of free speech..” limkamput
The Constitution provides me with free speech rights which allow me to call you names like “stupid and ‘moron”, sir. But I’d rather not do that.
#157 by limkamput on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 2:51 am
DArkhorse, this was what you said, so don’t twist and turn.
More so post-HINDRAF. Their (Malays’) sense of security has been violated by HINDRAF if you know what I mean. Therefore, the HINDRAF 5 need to remain under detention till tempers cool down.
If under the Sale of Goods Act, the buyer is legally protected from the aggresive selling methods of the door-to-door salesman by allowing the buyer a statutory period of 10 days to change his mind (after signing the contract of sale) referred to as the “cooling off†period, the same reasoning could be employed perhaps to justify their detention.
A “cooling off†period is necessary.
What do they say about someone entering the kitchen and not being able to stand the heat?? Do not enter the kitchen!
#158 by DarkHorse on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 2:52 am
I’m sorry, sir. It is almost 2.00 a.m. I really need to sleep and shall continue defending my free speech rights first thing tomorrow morning. The right to go to bed when you want to go, is an issue affecting free speech – in case you don’t know sir.
So good night and sweet dreams!
#159 by limkamput on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 2:55 am
What do they say about someone entering the kitchen and not being able to stand the heat?? Do not enter the kitchen!-darkhorse
You are not only insensitive but insulting to the core to those who are willing to sacrifice their freedom for fairness and equality. Talking about thinking process.
#160 by limkamput on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 2:57 am
So good night and sweet dreams!
dont try to con me again, didn’t you say good nite earlier and still came back. you want to have the last word right?
#161 by limkamput on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 2:59 am
if you need to sleep, just go, it is ok, i will not stab you from the back. We debate upfront is more fun. the reason i responded is because you are still here. i will stop when i get no response from you. so good nite and sweet dream to you too
#162 by Count Dracula on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 2:59 am
You can take me on! I don’t sleep.
#163 by limkamput on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 3:05 am
i don’t talk dracula at 3 a.m. in the morning, sorry, bye bye.
#164 by Count Dracula on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 3:10 am
Hello? Are you still there? I can smell blood in the water.
#165 by DiaperHead on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 5:06 am
Habis modal mah!
#166 by undergrad2 on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 10:27 am
“Please tell me, because I want to know why because of Article 11(4) and 160 (2) Bible can not be printed in BM.†Limkamput
Article 11 Clause 1) states “ every person has the right to profess and practice his religion…†Then it goes on to qualify that right when it continues “and subject to Clause (4) to propagate it.†In other words you are allowed to propagate your faith but you are only allowed to do so subject to Clause 4).
Clause 4) states clearly and I quote “State law ….may control or restrict….†What does it restrict? It restricts the “propagation of any religious doctrine or belief†which means any doctrine not limited only to Christianity. Then it goes on to state “among persons professing the religion of Islamâ€.
Who are the persons professing the religion of Islam is a question easily answered. However, when it comes to Malays they are deemed Muslims by law. Which provision of the Constitution says that? Article 160(2) when it defines “Malay†as being “persons who profess the Muslim religion, habitually speaks the Malay language and conforms to Malay customâ€. There are expressed provisions to the same effect in the state constitutions which you might want to refer to.
a) Would slipping a copy of the Bible in your friend’s school bag whether asked or not constitute an act of ‘proselytization’?
b) Would asking your Muslim friend to attend church for your wedding constitute an act of proselytization? Would the act of inviting your Muslim friend for a Christmas party at your house suffice to constitute an act of proselytization? Would giving a turkey during Christmas celebration to your Muslim friend be an act of proselytization?
c) Would the act of printing Bibles in Bahasa suffice to constitute an act of proselytization?
d) Would the practice of placing Bibles in hotel rooms suffice to constitute an act of proselytization?
e) Would allowing a weekly paper by a church be in bahasa constitute an act of proselytization? Would allowing a section of any paper dealing with religions issues other than Islam be an act of proselytization?
You would need to refer to the legislation of each state which may or may not provide answers to all these. Personally, I know of no case law on these issues. In my opinion the complete absence of any case law on the matter is indicative or suggestive of how the courts would likely interpret it.
The intent of Parliament regarding Article 160(2) is the focus of some controversy.
That is the law in a nutshell.
…and that is my 2-cents.
#167 by borrring on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 11:59 am
Found this interesting site http://www.investigateislam.com
#168 by limkamput on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 2:44 pm
Undergrad2,
Thank you for explaining.
So it is not definitive that any of those you listed constitutes proselytization and as far as I know so far the court has made no decision on any of these. I am aware that State law “….may control or restrict….†but what constitutes control and restrict was never defined, am I right? I am not saying you said, but reading the postings above (in general and not restricting to just yours) would suggest that printing of Bible in BM falls under one of the “control or restrictionâ€. So are we putting the cart ahead of the horse?
#169 by Jeffrey on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 3:42 pm
“State law ….may control or restrict….the propagation of any religious doctrine or belief among persons professing the religion of Islam†– Article 11(4) of the Constitution.
And what constitutes control and restrict?
Here we refer to the quotes from Lewis Caroll’s “Alice in Wonderland” :
Humpty Dumpty: When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean – neither more nor less.
Alice: The question is, whether you can make words mean so many different things.
Humpty Dumpty: The question is: which is to be master – that’s all.
So which is to be master?
#170 by limkamput on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 3:53 pm
Habis modal mah! Diaperhead
Modal saya banyak ada. Hanya saya mahu berbahas dengan mereka yang cerdik sahaja. Apa kamu tahu? Tulis lah satu atua dua peranggan untuk saya baca. Kalua ada standard macham Darkhorse barulah saya layan, ok. Sementara itu, kamu tunggu la. Tidak semua orang boleh berbahas dengan saya. Kamu ingat senang kah nak berbahas dengan orang yang bersekolah attap?
To All others,
Please don’t think I am being rude again. I want all of you to read the insult Diaperhead heaped on me in another thread, under “Gani owes public apology……â€. I reproduce below for your reading.
This is what Diaperhead said:
“…the prosecution, the defense and the court (i.e the judges) must follow the applicable laws as prevail. †limkamphut
Yes.
“And the subsequent decision/conviction is “justifiable†because those charged are given due process as provided.â€
Yes.
“If this was what you said or alluded to, I totally disagree. â€
Who are you? Who cares whether you agree or not.
“My contention is if the state is capable enough…â€
You can take your contention and shove it up your behind.
#171 by limkamput on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 4:13 pm
Jeffrey,
If I understand you correctly, ultimately it is those in power that call the shot. They will define the constitution as they please, and if they can’t get what they want, they will amend, change, bulldoze and whatever. I think this is what I have been trying to get at all along – that we are discussing too much within the confine of the constitution, never mind the whole document has been amended beyond recognition. Coupled with this, we are here also trying to interpret whatever provisions that are left negatively (i.e. to our disadvantage) when the issues have not been brought to the court yet. I am also having a discussion with Undergrad2 in another thread under “Gani owes public apology….â€. Would appreciate if you can look at it and enlighten me further.
#172 by DarkHorse on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 10:07 pm
You know Jeffrey, I’ve always wondered if limkamput is a botak-head.
You know – those who go around with hairs parted near their ears because there’s no hair for them to part anywhere else on their head!
Limkamput likes to split hairs when he writes!
#173 by DarkHorse on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 10:14 pm
Either that or he is paranoid and schizophrenic always hearing voices, attributing those voices to readers who never uttered a word!
He puts words in the mouths of posters and ends up quarreling with himself. He is the person you’d like to kick in the ass so he could just go away.
But I’m not going to do any of those. I’m just going to exercise my free speech and ignore him.
I ask you, Jeffrey to do the same.
#174 by Count Dracula on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 10:36 pm
“I am aware of “….may control or restrict….†but what constitutes control and restrict was never defined, am I right?†limkamput
What constitutes control and restriction?
MEANING OF CONTROL AND RESTRICTION as defined in my pocket dictionary.
If I tie you up to your cheap chair, put dirty duct tape across your mouth and restraints on your ankles and then bang your head with your kitchen pan, that’s control and restriction. Oh, that is still not clear enough for you? Then try this.
If I ask you to bend over and you bend over, and I ask Jeffrey to kick you in the rear and there is not a damn thing you can do, that’s control and restriction.
#175 by undergrad2 on Sunday, 23 December 2007 - 12:00 am
LIMKAMPUT: “So it is not definitive that any of those you listed constitutes proselytization and as far as I know so far the court has made no decision on any of these.â€
You cannot proselytize the Malays because that is against the Federal Constitution of 1957. That should be clear to you now: Art. 11(1) read together with Clause (4) and Clause (4) read in conjunction with Art. 160(2) on the definition of “Malayâ€.
State legislation has more to say on the issue.
1. Perhaps Jeffrey QC could help since limkamput cannot understand the meaning of “restrict and controlâ€. The Count has given his learned opinion on “restrict and controlâ€. I would not suggest that he demonstrates to us using limkamput, but the meaning is, in my humble opinion, clear as it could be – ‘crystal clear’ as they say.
2. You have the law and then you have the facts. A judge arrives at his decision by applying the facts to the law. The sequence is not important. Some judges perhaps after long years at the Bench know in their hearts what the right decision ought to be. They work backwards rather than forwards. They decide and then they look at the law and apply the facts to find the reasoning behind the decision. If the reasoning turns out convoluted then there is ground for appeal – though the decision a correct one. On appeal the decision stands though the reasoning does not. In other cases it is about the misapplication of the facts to the law. Yet in others it is law misinterpreted – or law given an interpretation different from the one intended by Parliament.
It may be a source of some comfort for people like limkamput to know that a ‘bad’ decision does not survive an appeal. Sometimes it does – because the Parliamentary draftsman cannot be expected to foresee every situation that may arise, every eventuality when drafting the legislation. In which case the logical thing to do would be to amend it.
3. If by “definitive†you mean there is hitherto no actual case and no decision by our courts on those, again Jeffrey QC the blog’s underpaid and undervalued and under appreciated legal analyst, chief legal correspondent could help us out – pro bono of course.
However, if by “definitive†you mean there is nothing definite about the law against proselytizing Malays, I am prepared to fight tooth and nail and have the Count help me out.
#176 by DiaperHead on Sunday, 23 December 2007 - 12:41 am
I agree with Dark Horse, Count Dracula and undergrad . I think we should spank the guy.
#177 by limkamput on Sunday, 23 December 2007 - 1:53 am
I weep for this country and the DAP that we are having a bunch of idiots here. Undergrad2, you are a big disappointment. You people like to talk like constitutional experts when in actual fact can’t even get the basic right. The issue was never whether we can or can not proselytize the Malays. So please don’t waste your effort filling the blog with your irrelevant writing. The issue was what constitutes proselytize the Malays. Again, I need no counsel that the state can control and restrict proselytize the Malays. My issue to you people was: does the printing of Bible in BM constitute proselytizing the Malays. You people talk so eloquently as if you are so certain. Just answer me yes or no. If yes why yes, and if no why no.
Undergrad2, I think you are a big disappointment. For others (except Jeffrey), I am not disappointed because they are to be expected, useless.
#178 by limkamput on Sunday, 23 December 2007 - 3:18 am
the “others” i refer to above are: Darkhorse, Diaperhead, Colonel, Dracula. But on second thought, may be I just need to use only one of the handles. Afterall, all equally good for nothing.
#179 by DarkHorse on Sunday, 23 December 2007 - 3:19 am
“The issue was what constitutes proselytize the Malays. ” Limkamphut
That’s not for you and I to say, Sir! It is for the courts.
“My issue to you people was: does the printing of Bible in BM constitute proselytizing the Malays.” limkamphut
That too is for the courts to say, Sir! Not for you to say and the rest of us to listen.
“You people talk so eloquently as if you are so certain. ” limkamphut
No, sir. We are only reciting the law and giving our points of view since you say you need help to understand.
“Just answer me yes or no. If yes why yes, and if no why no.” limkamphut
No.
#180 by limkamput on Sunday, 23 December 2007 - 3:21 am
Dracula, you don’t know what you don’t know. I know what i don’t know. A person who does not know what he/she does not know is called a moron!
#181 by limkamput on Sunday, 23 December 2007 - 3:25 am
so what has the court said. i am still waiting…
#182 by limkamput on Sunday, 23 December 2007 - 3:26 am
so if the court has not said, why you people start to talk like constitution law experts.
#183 by limkamput on Sunday, 23 December 2007 - 3:29 am
what law are you reciting that supports the view that printing bible in bm is proselytize malays. i have been waiting since yesterday.
#184 by DarkHorse on Sunday, 23 December 2007 - 3:41 am
That issue has not gone to court yet, Sir. You’ll have to wait.
#185 by DarkHorse on Sunday, 23 December 2007 - 4:02 am
“so if the court has not said, why you people start to talk like constitution law experts.” limkamphut
I never claimed to be an expert at anything, but if you insist that I have expert skills, then I’d like ‘giving you a good spanking’ (to use Diaper’s expression)’ to be one of those, Sir.
I hope you don’t mind.
#186 by DarkHorse on Sunday, 23 December 2007 - 4:15 am
“So are we putting the cart ahead of the horse?” limkamphut
No sir. I am not putting the cart in front of the horse. I’m just putting you in front of the horse, sir.
#187 by DarkHorse on Sunday, 23 December 2007 - 4:21 am
“I weep for this country and the DAP that we are having a bunch of idiots here including Undergrad2…” limkamphut
I have to remind you that you’re going back to being your old self here i.e. calling posters names.
#188 by DarkHorse on Sunday, 23 December 2007 - 4:22 am
I suggest we return to the issues.
#189 by DarkHorse on Sunday, 23 December 2007 - 5:55 am
“The outrage by the Indian community at these triple disrespect and insensitivities were a major cause for 30,000 Indians from all over the country gathering in Kuala Lumpur…..” Kit
I submit respectfully to you, Kit that to treat the Indians as if they were one homogeneous race is a mistake. It is a mistake because we would then not be able to understand the issues as well as we should.
There are Malayalis, Gujeratis, Punjabis, Bengalis etc and these are the Indians who play a much more significant and not a marginal role in the economic life of our country – and they were not represented on that November day!
The HINDRAF leaders rode roughshod over them.
#190 by Colonel on Sunday, 23 December 2007 - 6:15 am
Yes, if racial polarization in the country is a serious issue today, the HINDRAF demonstrators have made it worse.
#191 by limkamput on Sunday, 23 December 2007 - 10:48 am
I have to remind you that you’re going back to being your old self here i.e. calling posters names.
oh yes, most appropriately. Despite my repeated reminders, THAT stupid head of yours remain unchanged. What do you call this type of people, ASS MORON.
#192 by limkamput on Sunday, 23 December 2007 - 1:26 pm
DarkHorse Says: I suggest we return to the issues.
What issue, moron like you can talk about issue? define to me quickly what is issue?
#193 by limkamput on Sunday, 23 December 2007 - 3:28 pm
Colonel Says:
Yes, if racial polarization in the country is a serious issue today, the HINDRAF demonstrators have made it worse -colonel
hello, dont insult Hindraf and its leaders, you spineless colonel with a private brain.
#194 by limkamput on Sunday, 23 December 2007 - 4:03 pm
No sir. I am not putting the cart in front of the horse. I’m just putting you in front of the horse, sir.- darkhorse
no problem to be in front of an ass like you so that i can fart on you.
#195 by chgchksg128 on Sunday, 23 December 2007 - 5:31 pm
something to let u all think?is it right the the mosque make a loud noise at 5am to 6am…
read this post
http://2hard2lie.blogspot.com/2007_12_01_archive.html
#196 by ktteokt on Thursday, 27 December 2007 - 10:44 am
Next time you meet up with a fully uniformed policeman or policewoman, observe his or her uniform carefully and you will notice that all of them wears a badge with the words “Allah” and “Mohammed” written in Jawi on their uniforms. And don’t forget some of them are not Muslims, yet they are made to wear these. So if these words are “franchised” to Muslims, then why are non-Muslims made to wear them?
#197 by ktteokt on Saturday, 29 December 2007 - 9:22 am
“PM: Religious festivals unite all Malaysiansâ€â€¦
How can he make such a claim when he even failed to unite the Malays themselves despite the fact the BIG signboard with the words UMNO inscribed on it, denoting “UNITED MALAYS NATIONAL ORGANIZATION”. He is supposed to unite all Malays in the nation according to what is written on the signboard but has he? I only come to one conclusion with my observations, i.e. the signboard should be changed to read “UNITING MALAYS NATIONAL ORGANIZATION” or “PERSATUAN KEBANGSAAN MELAYU YANG SEDANG DISATUKAN”