The invocation of the Internal Security Act (ISA) to arrest five Hindraf leaders is most deplorable and marks another violation of the pledge by the Prime Minister, Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi to promote democracy, uphold human rights and defend the rule of law.
This is because the infamous detention-without-trial Internal Security Act is the very antithesis of the rule of law.
The five detained under the ISA are P. Uthayakumar, M Manoharan, R Kenghadharan, V Ganabatirau and T Vasanthakumar.
If the government has clear and convincing evidence that the five had committed grave offences, they should be charged in court allowing them an open trial and an opportunity to defend themselves instead of being incarcerated under a regime where proof is not necessary at all.
The return of the ISA is another regression of Malaysia to the dark era of human rights violations which can only tarnish the country’s international reputation and image.
#1 by DarkHorse on Tuesday, 18 December 2007 - 8:56 pm
Many of of us just can’t handle free speech. All you need do is just scroll up to find who can and cannot and why. And that is not meant to insult anybody.
BN MPs and others of similar vein are bad role models. One can understand because they make the profile of village idiots. But apart from the almost inherent inability to handle differences of opinion and to view it as just being that i.e. differences of opinion, some take it to mean that they are being personally attacked for their views or at least that they are being made to change their minds. That is not the case. Can’t we view differences of opinion as just being that? Some have a strong sense of right and wrong and find it difficult to contain their anger. Try anger management then. It’ll do you good because chances are if you’re married you are likely to be that abusive husband. If you’re a student then you don’t have what it makes to make a good student leader and are not likely to have leadership skills of the kind the country needs. You’re likely to be the bully in the class.
You, Shamshul Anuar, do not have to apologize for being anything. Like you say – be yourself. Someone with an opinion on the issues. Stand your ground and feel proud that you’re able to articulate your views without insulting others for articulating theirs.
#2 by SIMPLYJUSTICE on Tuesday, 18 December 2007 - 10:27 pm
I UNDERSTAND THAT THE ELECTROL REGISTRATION WILL BE CLOSED ON 22ND DECEMBER 2007.
IF SO, HAVE YOU DONE YOUR DUTY !
TO REGISTER YOURSELF AND ENCOURAGE , ANOTHER 50 TO REGISTER AS WELL.
WE NEED TO TAKE POSITIVE ACTION, WITHOUT IT WE WILL FAIL AGAIN.
#3 by shamshul anuar on Tuesday, 18 December 2007 - 10:44 pm
Dear Lakshy.
I refer to your statement that Hindraf did not attack the Malays. Unfortunately that was not what the Malays perceived. The Malays consider Hindraf as an affront to them, UMNo and Islam due to extreme Hindraf statement that ‘UMNO led govt sanctioned ethnic cleansing….”.
Someone claimed that “hindraf let a genie out of a bottled”. The truth is that Hindraf is a manifastation that how deadly it can be if people play to racial sentiments, be they from any race. The detention under ISA is expected. In fact, many Malays( I gather from conversation in mosque, offices, wedding reception, dialogues with UMNO leaders) are visibly upset that PM took so much time before arresting them.
#4 by shamshul anuar on Tuesday, 18 December 2007 - 11:19 pm
DEar Dawsheng.
I refer to your statement on me trying to justify Govt using ISA. And you did ask who are the silent majority. They are like you and me. Like many people who asked Cabinet Ministers point blank why on earth PM was slow in using ISA to deal with people who shout aboout democaracy and in the process tearing apart social fabric.
Perhaps you are not aware the sentiments of some section of Malay community. They may not use internet to air the view but message is clear. In wedding reception, offices, mosques, they have been talking about how Hindraf lied to the world. Please do not assume that support on UMNO is waning simply because not many airing their views vie internet.
As for the firmness of Govt to use ISA, make no mistake. I had seen how firmly with my very own eyes they act in stopping PAS abuse of mosques in Ampang.
#5 by DarkHorse on Wednesday, 19 December 2007 - 12:53 am
Enough said about HINDRAF!
There is no doubt in my mind that the demonstrations have alienated the Malay voters who would have thrown their weight behind the Opposition just so that the UMNO led government becomes more accountable and responsive to public demands and so we could return to the rule of law that existed before the Mahathir era.
That is now but a dream! Thanks to the HINDRAF 5.
#6 by dawsheng on Wednesday, 19 December 2007 - 12:59 am
Dear Shamsul,
I beg to differ and I disagree totally when you refer the ‘silent majority’ as people like you and me, clearly I am not.
Perhaps you also not aware that there are large section of multi racial and multi religious Malaysian community who have been talking about the corrupt and abuse of power by the UMNO led government, that not just the Indians and the Chinese are victims of marginalization, your own kind did not escape the poor fate too, after 50 years of independent and yet among the poorest of your own kind you have the like of Klang emperor Zakaria, need I say more.
You said “Please do not assume that support on UMNO is waning simply because not many airing their views vie internet.”
I did not assume that, in fact you are all welcome to this blog (it is not my blog, I ‘tumpang’ only so…). My advice, please stop reading mainstream newspaper, that, if you want to be smart. Visit this blog regularly, engages the issues with rational and progressive thinking, with the intent of nation building and peace, prosperity and fairness for all, there’s always room for disagreement but please don’t bombard us with crap umnologies, we are too good for that and of course the world will laugh at you.
#7 by Colonel on Wednesday, 19 December 2007 - 1:42 am
“My advice, please stop reading mainstream newspaper, that, if you want to be smart. Visit this blog regularly..” dawsheng
But you just tried running him off asking him to go rot some place only a few postings ago!
#8 by dawsheng on Wednesday, 19 December 2007 - 7:45 am
Well, I am just following Uncle Kit’s advice, but that doesn’t mean I don’t mean what I said earlier. Like I said, if he come here only interested to tell one side of the story, what is the point when we all already know what he is going to say, it is all over the mainstream media. Not that I wish he and UMNO supporters will rot but the facts it is already rotten there, why bring the rot here? Just continue to rot there.
#9 by shamshul anuar on Wednesday, 19 December 2007 - 11:48 pm
Dear Dawsheng.
Many thanks for your remarks. Again it depends on what you want to believe. Contrary to what you believe or wish to believe, the support of Malays to UMNO is strong.
The reason is actually quite simplistic. Majority of Malays perceive that UMNO delivers despite warts and all. And I firmly believe that it does deliver. Of course weaknesses are there. Quite many of them . But the bottom line Malays( vast majority of them) believe it delivers.
But the major reason why it continues to hold sway among Malay community is due to the fact it is the only party that Malays believe able to take care of their interest. Let us get this clear. Malays do not expect DAP, perceived as having anti- Malay attitude, to represent them.
Why gamble on the uncertainty when the time tested political party is there. Despite whatever you wish to believe, at least UMNO is not perceived as “father and son co”. You know, this is what my friends see as the major characteristics of DAP. Whatever happened, eventually senior party leaders have to make way to the Crown Prince (nick name by Malay community) to lead DAP.
As for mainstream newspapers, I do read just like you do. And contrary to what you feel, significant numbers still believe in it. If the general feeling towards UMNO is in tandem with what most of the responses here , UMNO is history long time ago.
No. the world does not laugh at me. In fact, many are wondering how UMNO and its allies manage to defend the fort come election. What formula that UMNO devises that manages it to survive elections after election, they ask.
I mean they know the usual rhetorics by losers who never fail to claim elections is not clean when they lost but kept quiet when they won. The answer is actually staring at us. Until today, no opposition party can match the formula of BN.
And contrary to what you think, UMNO supporters are not losers or rotten. Many have their own businesses. And you maybe surprise that they achieve all this without handouts from Govt. I have seen this. Many of my friends are involved in agricultures and live comfortables lives. Many hold senior positions in universities, opening their own practices.
Of course, these achievements pale in comparison to Chinese performances in businesses. But is is emerging.
Of course, some of criticisms vs UMNO, BN are valid just like the criticism of nepotism in DAP is known and even admitted by many. I am not denying that.
#10 by ktteokt on Thursday, 20 December 2007 - 9:55 am
What Tunku said bore no significance today to these group of “GFN” (Good for Nothings)! They don’t read History!!!!!!!
#11 by EARNEST on Friday, 21 December 2007 - 2:10 am
On 24 September 2007, President Ahmadinejad of Iran attended a public forum in Columbia University USA. There was a showdown. However, he was seen to be more civil than Lee Bollinger , President of Columbia University, who invited him as a guest but introduced him as “petty and cruel dictator.”
“You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated,” Bollinger told Ahmadinejad about the leader’s Holocaust denial. “Will you cease this outrage?”
Bollinger was rude and inadvertently could have made people feel sorry for Ahmadinejad.
This treatment of a guest by a host was generally seen to be inappropriate all over the world.
We now have our Shamshul Anuar, a self-confessed supporter of UMNO as a guest in this Opposition blog, and I observed that he too has been treated inappropriately by some posters here. We should instead engage Shamshul in civil discourse and not be seen all over the world as being less civil than him despite our differences.
The precious right to freedom of speech should not be denied to those expressing ideas disagreeable to us.
We have nothing to lose by learning more about Shamshul. As the saying goes, “Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.”
I wish to address Shamshul directly on 3 issues, viz., Ethnic Cleansing, ISA and Nepotism in DAP.
Dear Shamsul,
1. Ethnic cleansing
===============
The official United Nations definition of ethnic cleansing is “rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group”. However, ethnic cleansing rarely aims at complete ethnic homogeneity.
Our Prime Minister got very worked up over Hindraf’s claim of ethnic cleansing because I remember clearly reading in mainstream newspaper that he associated ethnic cleansing with genocide with gory bloodbaths in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Even opposition leaders like Karpal Singh and Lim Guan Eng stated that Hindraf’s claim of ethnic cleansing was not true. Of course, you too have vehemently stated that Hindraf’s claim was not true and that they were playing with fire for using that unpardonable provocative word.
Basing on the correct definition of ethnic cleansing above, and YouTube videos of numerous Hindu temple destructions wherein force and intimidation was undeniably used, which necessitated the removal of these Hindus (religious groups) from their places of worship, problems of burial of deceased Indians of controversial conversion to Islam, abject poverty, displacements due to urbanization, resulting in the highest suicide rates and most rampant gangsterism among the races, don’t you see justification for their claims of ethnic cleansing?
Hitherto, why hasn’t anybody enlightened the Prime Minster about the actual definition of ethnic cleansing and that there was indeed justification for their claim of ethnic cleansing?
Would you undertake to enlighten the Prime Minister on the above so as to set the Hindraf 5 free immediately?
ISA
====
You claimed that the Prime Minister listened to the silent majority represented by Damai Malaysia, representing 395 NGOs and that there were criticisms over delay in signing the detention ISA order.
According to thestar online 13.12.2007, “Damai Malaysia representatives also included those from 75 Chinese-based and 20 Indian groups and associationsâ€. There was no mention of the number of Malay-based NGOs. A source had estimated the figure to be not more than 30 Malay-based NGOs in Damai Malaysia.
I have read online news stating that the number of 395 NGOs in Damai Malaysia was a hoax. Basing on scanty information as shown above, the figures simply do not add up. Assuming that the above figures are correct, there could only be 125 NGOs, the rest being phantom NGOs. Damai Malaysia failed to meet the challenged to publish the names of all those 395 NGOs. Damai Malaysia has lost its credibility.
Contrary to the claim of delay in the execution of the ISA on the Hindraf 5, there was actually unholy haste resulting in the Prime Minister unforgivably overlooking the need for police detention of suspects for up to 60 days under Section 73 before he as the Minister of Internal Security and Public Order could sign the ISA detention order under Section 8.
There is not a shred of evidence that national security has been threatened, despite Hindraf’s warning that Indian Malaysians might be forced to resort to violence in order to restore their constitutional rights.
Please justify the above misinformation and ISA’s violation of human rights.
Would you undertake to enlighten the Prime minister over his glaring and grave mistakes in invoking the ISA, so as to set Hindraf 5 free immediately?
Nepotism in DAP
=============
If the children of political leaders of a party are dumb and yet occupy high positions, we may conclude that there could be nepotism. But if the children are really capable and rise to the top on their own merits, it would be grossly unfair to attribute their rise to nepotism rather than genetic reasons. Furthermore, they conduct elections within their own parties.
Dr. Mahathir himself wrote about the success of a race or a nation being dependent on the quality of the gene pools in his book, The Malay Dilemma.
So, there are scientific reasons for what you claimed to be “nepotism†in DAP, persumably appertaining to Lim Guan Eng and for that matter Lee Hsien Loong in PAP Singapore, George W. Bush in the GOP America.
Why do you jump to conclusion about nepotism in DAP without looking at possible scientific explanation?
And now that you know the truth, would you enlightened your friends in UMNO about the above 3 issues?
#12 by DiaperHead on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 5:20 am
Earnie aka Duftnee,
You are a real retard as someone said. Wherever you go, you pollute the threads with your retarded thoughts! Why don’t you just quit making comments and only read instead. You might be able to learn something.
#13 by DiaperHead on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 5:25 am
“There is not a shred of evidence that national security has been threatened…” earnie aka duftnee
How would you know since they have not revealed what they know?? Isn’t that the reason they use the ISA. Because they do not need to reveal what they know??
Daft!
#14 by laifoong on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 6:55 am
“We have nothing to lose by learning more about Shamshul. As the saying goes, “Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.â€
i cannot imagine keeping najib close to me! i’m not gay. oso he might strangle me, stab me, put his dirty fingers on me etc! gives me the creeps!
worse if i keep daftnee aka earnie close. no thank you!
#15 by DarkHorse on Saturday, 22 December 2007 - 8:29 am
Earnie must have over dosed again!
#16 by shamshul anuar on Sunday, 23 December 2007 - 12:30 am
Dear Ernest.
Many thanks for the remarks. I accept difference of opinions just like you. It is refreshing to hear that people practise what they preach sometimes.
By the way, I am not an UMNO member . I support UMNO but at the same time I am critical to it. It make a lot of mistakes. But at the same time it also delivers. It is a dominant political party in this country. If it really wanted to, it can simply ensure that UMNO alone can form the Federal Govt . As for Sarawak, it is a matter of choice not to join state politics although the support is big for entry of UMNO into the state.
Why PM, UMNO, Malays are so upset with the allegation of “ethnic cleansing?”, one may ask. Because it was a “fitnah”. That is how Malays look into such allegation. Malays are upset that HINDRAF lied to the whole world , depicting Malays, UMNO and Malaysia in a very negative manner.
It is easy to ask Malays, UMNO, PM to be lenient over this matter. But if the charge hits you, what would you do. How would you feel? Even my defending of UMNO( just defending, not accusing DAP anything) resulted in me being called UMNO cybertrooper. I can not imagine if UMNO accuses DAP as playing to racial gallery( actually that is the general view of Malay) .
Even my Indians friends do not agree with the term “ethnic cleansing”. Call a spade a spade. Please do not create another meaning for etnic cleansing to justify the lies by HINDRAF.
THe simple fact is that HINDRAF played with racial issue. It incites the Indians to go against UMNO, the Malays. It is waging war against the Malays. That is exactly what it said and did. It is naive of HINDRAF leaders not to realize that by waging war against UMNO, actually it is waging war vs the Malays.
Nobody is denying any human rights of HINDRAF leaders. Rights however come with responsibility. Right to speak does not include right to lie, “fitnah”. Hindraf dangerous and fatal actions therefore must be stopped. This is where ISA comes in handy.
In fact, Malays are so upset that PM took so much time before arresting them. Perhaps you are not aware how uncomfortable some UMNO cabinet Ministers facing Malays when they were told point blank how upset Malays are for the slow response by PM.
“there is no shred of evidence that national security is threatened”. I am not so sure about that. If Hindraf was not contained, imagine if the other party react. Now imagine if 100,000 UMNO members demonstrated in Kuala Lumpur. The situation can turn ugly.
Whatever grouses by Indians, Hindraf, must it make Malays as its enemy? Of what good is the action?. As for ISA, I believe majority wants it. If not choose the govt that does not believe in it. It is as simple as that.
As for nepotism in DAP, well everybody knows it. Even my DAP friends admit to it. How suddenly more senior party leaders “were made to make way” for Lim Eng Guan. Let us not pretend that it is not true. And I do not jump into conclusion. That was what DAP members said. Of course, they reminded me not to mention their names.
As for your request to inform PM to release the 5 detained leaders, I am afraid I am not able to do so. In fact, I believe they deserve detention. Those who play with fire must be willing to pay the price. Do understand that in Malay culture and Islamic tradition “fitnah itu lebih dahsyat daripada membunuh”.
I however do not deny the problems facing Indian community . Like other communities, Indians also face poverty. However there is no need to blame UMNO, Malays for the poverty. Surely nobody can deny Govt role in poverty eradication. However, there are much more need to be done.
As for temple demolition, local, state and federal govt paid the price for being overly lenient when it comes to illegally built religious structures. However, perhaps you are not aware that the said demolition of temple that HINDRAF so indifferently use to incite the feeling vs Islam, UMNO, Malays was built( ILEGALLY) on a private land. THe developer even offered to build a new temple. And it was demolished after Deepavali, not before the festival.
#17 by shamshul anuar on Sunday, 23 December 2007 - 12:44 am
DEar Ernest.
I appreciate your kind remark about the need to be civil towards those who have different views . Although I may not agree with your some of view, I respect your opinion. I agree that it is imperative to know what the rakyat feels about many issues.
And I also believe that some court jesters in Parliament should not be elected. They include those who violates local laws until A sultan need to advise him or unnecessary offending women biological clock.
#18 by EARNEST on Sunday, 23 December 2007 - 1:24 am
Dear shamshul anuar,
… would you enlightened your friends in UMNO about the above 3 issues?
should read
… would you enlighten your friends in UMNO about the above 3 issues?
Sorry for the above grammatical mistake.
I appreciate your composure despite the pervasive atmosphere of hostility around you, in continuing to air your views unperturbed and with clarity of thoughts.
There is a bunch of unruly kids with a propensity for provocation, who should emulate your style. You have more class than they have. They will grow up into don’t-know-what.
#19 by undergrad2 on Sunday, 23 December 2007 - 1:59 am
Shamshul,
Dark Horse I think has brought to the attention of posters on the use of your ‘quote’ in Bahasa which was later translated by him for the convenience of readers of this blog. The author Loh Meng Kow used it without so much as a reference to where it came from or acknowledgment to its author. That is a show of disrespect.
I think you should visit the thread to read – and perhaps respond in a manner appropriate.
#20 by shamshul anuar on Sunday, 23 December 2007 - 1:15 pm
Dear Ernest and Undergrad2,
Again, many thanks for the remarks. And i salute those who take time to correct the grammer as it reflects positive values .
Rest assured, Ernest, UMNO and Malay leaders are aware about the sentiments on the ground. They are aware that any good idea will only remain an idea without effective implementation.
Malay leaders never deny the problems facing Indian community. Perhaps you are not aware that several UMNO leaders at division levels mentioned about the effect on poor with regards to overly lenient immigration policies. Wages are artificially supressed down to a ridiculous level.
Perhaps you are not aware that even in UMNO, there is a concern about almost nonexistent of Indians in govt sectors in some areas. Actually the concern is of practicality in nature. It makes no sense for a dept to be affected by staff taking leaves during Hari Raya . Availability of Indians or Chinese staff will reduce the effect.
Actually the policy is not to stop non Malay into govt sector. However, due to low wage( until recently) , it does not attract many candidates from these communities. I hope with recent attractive renumeration, candidates from non Malay communities will start applying again.
As for ISA, Ernest , UMNO already knows your type of sentiments long time ago. But do remember that what you feel and what humble pakcik and makcik in kampung feel are 2 different things. They are not really against ISA. You maybe surprise to know the generally they feel all the PM s that Malaysia have( from the days of Tunku) are humble, benevolent and merciful. You will not see this kind of opinion in this blog but if you care to have a cup of coffee in Pendang, Taiping, or Temerloh, this is their response.
To them ISA is wild card that leader uses in order to ensure orderliness and security. As long it is used sparingly, it is OK , at least that is what they feel. Ernest, you maybe do not realize that actually Malays are upset that PM took time to use ISA vs Hindraf leaders.
Perhaps this sentence is a reflection of general mood of Malay community( as said by an UMNO friend) ” Kalau aku yang jadi PM, dah lama aku sumbat Hindraf leaders dalam ISA”.
Anyway, many thanks for your request. Actually quite a number of malay leaders read this forum.
My defence of UMNO must not be taken as 100% approval of its performance. I strongly believe that it also( like all political parties) must buck up. UMNO ministers must go to the ground and see for themselves the real situation. And I pray that those who have no respect of local regulation to be booted out in the next election. No point in electing these clowns .
#21 by EARNEST on Monday, 24 December 2007 - 4:55 am
Dear Shamshul Anuar,
Besides the above 3 issues, viz.,
1. Ethnic Cleansing
2. ISA
3. Nepotism in DAP
there is a fourth issue on illegal assemblies without police permit which had been debated extensively in this blog before, and being renewed under this thread:
PM/IGP – heed Nazrin/Musa, respect Constitution and allow peaceful demonstrations
I have said that it was wrong to deny police permits arbitrarily to prevent peaceful assemblies organized for the purpose of expressing legitimate grievances.
Please let us have your opinion on this 4th issue. If you are agreeable with me, please tell your UMNO friends that it is imperative to restore citizens’ constitutional right to peaceful assemblies, to pre-empt potentially violent eruptions of pent-up frustrations.
#22 by shamshul anuar on Monday, 24 December 2007 - 10:27 pm
Dear Ernest.
To understand why IGP did not allow Hindraf assembly and procession to submit memorandum to British High Commission , one must take into consideration on sorrounding circumstances. When i say circumstances I mean the nature of the protest, the political temperature, etc.
Here is a scenario: IGP allowed the assembly. As it is allowed, more people will gather . Imagine for example 100,000 assembled in a highly charged atmosphere. The nature of the protest tends to pit Indians vs Malays. It just takes one mistake ( such as one man to throw a stone) to start a riot.
Therefore, IGP, in his capacity as head of police dept, may err to the side of caution. It is better than taking a risk that could have resulted in a bloodbath. Now tell me do you mind having to brace a demonstration say from UMNO members. Just imagine a quarter million people on the street of Kuala Lumpur , voicing anger over Hindraf allegation.
In no way such rejection of permit can be interpreted as violating human right. If human right can result in racial clash, then I do not subscribe to it. Do understand that even before Hindraf assembly, another demonstration ( Bersih) took place, already gave an impression of an authority losing control. Allowing another demonstration that condemned the authority( and of courese Islam, UMNO and Malays) will only invite reaction from Malays. Now imagine if Malays also took to the street , such as having 200,000 people , all angry at Hindraf. Sure recipe for disaster.
You did say “peaceful assembly”. Was Hindraf demonstration a peaceful expression of feeling? I am not so sure of it. Emotion is a powerful tool. It can be a real disaster if it is manipulated. Remember May 13. There is nothing wrong by erring on the side of caution.
Dr Nazrin’s statement while encouraging civilized expression of expression in no way promoting unbridled expression of human right. At the same breath, the gracious prince, also a learned scholar, also cautioned Malaysians to use a proper channel to air any grievances . Surely you will agree that since independence , all the Prime Ministers that Malaysia have are decent people. Certainly they are not dictators of same league with Marcos, Milosevich, Emperor Bokassa or Idi Amin of Uganda.
DO not worry about condemnation from some countries. I had seen before my own eyes how their polices treated protesters. Of course, they are busy preaching to us. To some section of Western Press, only by having demomstration than a democracy is recognised. Never mind if a country is ruined. To them freedom of ecpression is equivalent to disagreeing to whatever the authority says.
“Eruptions of pent up frustrations” …. so you said. There is better way. Ballot box.
#23 by EARNEST on Tuesday, 25 December 2007 - 4:21 am
Dear Shamshul anuar,
You said “To understand why IGP did not allow Hindraf assembly and procession to submit memorandum to British High Commission….”
Based on what I understand, the IGP did not prevent Hindraf leader from submiting the memorandum to British High Commission”. A Hindraf leader when asked why he did not submit the memorandum, replied that it was a trap. The police already had a court order against assembly in the vicinity of the British High Commission. If he proceeded to submit the memo, he could be charged for contempt of court.
The Court order was against assembly near the British High Commission. But, why did the police act so harshly against innocent Indians gathering at Batu Cave for prayers? Why was it necessary to lock the gates, huddle them inside the temples like animals, and fire tear gas canisters and using water cannons against them? How could they disperse being locked inside, drenched and tear-gassed?
Hindraf demonstrators were not armed and were not violent on 25 Nov 2007. The police initiated the commotion by firing first. Had they allowed them to proceed to march peacefully to the British High Commission, — and they pleaded for just one hour — ugly images of police brutality would not have flashed across world TVs. The Indian and US Government would not have expressed their concerns.
Please do not use May13 to scare people. A Royal Commission of Enquiry on this tragedy would probably confirm that it was not caused by racial tension, but a coup to topple Tunku’s aristocracy to replace it with Malay capitalism, basing on recently declassified documents from London. That is basing on what I have read.
Mass rallies of Malay Anti demonstrators for what? For muzzling aggrieved people from expressing their cries of desperations?
Peaceful demonstrations in a true democracy would not ruin a country. They happen very often in countries practizing true democracy, whereby the police help to maintain the peace, leading the demonstrators to their destinations, and preventing anti-demonstrators from causing unnecessary troubles.
Deeply frustrated people are like pressure cookers. Allowing aggrieved people to hold peaceful assemblies to release raw tonnage from their chests is like agreeing to have regulators and safety valves on pressure cookers.
Clauses on restriction in the Federal Constitutional Article 10 guaranteeing our rights to freedom of peaceful assembly, should not be interpreted as giving a blank cheque to the police to deny or permit citizens from exercising their rights. The police’s job should be to regulate peaceful assemblies, like the regulator in a pressure cooker, not to prevent peaceful assemblies, which is analogous to blocking the regulator and safety valve of the pressure cooker, with undesirable consequences. History is full of such lessons.
Ballot box is not the only solution in a true democracy. It is rather insensitive to say that it is the only option for change for the better. The Powers-that-be must have broad enough shoulders to accept the fact that despite their efforts at improving the lot of the people, there are serious perceptions that they could have done much much better.
Usually, peaceful demonstrations are last resorts to demand that the powers-that-be respond conscientiously to address the grievances of the people, which could be immediate like sudden increase in cost of living due to spiraling fuel, flour, bread, vegetable, etc., prices; or something which have been neglected or taken lightly for too long, like unfair elections system, rotten judiciary, marginalization, deprivation of right to education, job opportunities, etc.
I have personal experience of what happened when the regulator and safety valve of a pressure cooker malfunctioned. It made a hole on the ceiling.
You will know that this is also true in human events if you read history.
#24 by EARNEST on Wednesday, 26 December 2007 - 1:55 am
Even my Indians friends do not agree with the term “ethnic cleansingâ€. Call a spade a spade. Please do not create another meaning for etnic (sic) cleansing to justify the lies by HINDRAF. — Shamsul anuar.
I had referred to the official UN definition of ethnic cleansing as a basis for common ground discussion as follows:
Ethnic cleansing
===============
The official United Nations definition of ethnic cleansing is “rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious groupâ€. However, ethnic cleansing rarely aims at complete ethnic homogeneity.
If you do not agree with the above definition, please apprise us of your definition.
#25 by shamshul anuar on Wednesday, 26 December 2007 - 6:54 pm
Dear Ernest.
The refusal of police to issue permit on Hindraf gathering does make sense. To prevent untoward incidents that tend to take place in a highly charged situation. That is the view of IGP and I agree with him.
Whatever HIndraf said, it lied to the world. It purposely did not tell the Indians on the facts with regards to a demolition of a temple. Why it lied. If truth is told, there is no reason for anger.
The truth is that that Hindraf is playing with racial fire. It is as simple as that. It incites the feeling of Indians to go againsts UMNO, Malays, Islam. It accused UMNO of sanctioning killing of Indians.
At the very same breath, it says that it is not against Malays. I am afraid what told and what Hindraf did are 2 different things. PM will be lauded by people like you and Western press if he chose to be lenient( meaning no guts to act).
Whatever grouses Indians have( or any race have), it must air them in the right manner. Meaning no need to wage war of hatred vs another race to get attention. Surely you will understand this.
You seem to talk only about right of Indians. what about Malays who are offended as their religion( Islam) is ridiculed and a Malay based political party condemned( dan difitnah) by a series of lies by Hindraf. Do not they also have rights.
And what is it has to do with Queen Elizabeth 11? Is it wrong for Malays to question Hindraf allegiance when Hindraf itself seems to submit to Queen Elizabeth for justice.
Please do not compare successive PMs with that of other dictators around the world. Surely they are not in the same league with that of Marcos, Suharto, Idi Amin. Did any of the Prime Ministers from the days of Tunku ever forbid non Malays any exercises in commerce. Has any Prime Minsters of Malaysia ever tried to deny the rights to worship according to their beliefs. Has any Chinese or Indians or Bidayuh or or Iban or Portuege Malaysians ever denied the right to speak in their mother tongue.
Are you not aware that there are Indians as Ketua Polis Daerah. Are you not aware there are Chinese as Brigadier General or Cabinet Minister or Member of Parliaments. Are you not aware that UMNO never attempt to sabotage Chinese in trade. Chinese and Malaysians are free to get involve in trade. I am sure you are aware that Education Minister also appointed several Chinese as Deputy Vice Chancellor.
And Malays, despite being accused of overused term “Ketuanan Melayu” still is willing to appoint a Chinese as CEO in a local bank of which Malays are the largest shareholders. I am afraid I am dreaming if I think a Malay can be appointed in a local bank owned by Chinese.
As for May 13, of course you only listened to what you wish to listened. Perhaps you are not aware how a supposed peaceful DAP procession “deviated” from permitted route and ended up in Kampung Baru, KL with hugh replica of brooms supposed to chase Malays away. The result of course is a disaster.
I have living witnesses to this sad episode. See. Innocent people were killed when emotions are not controlled.
As for definition of etnic cleansing, you had already stated it. Nowhere in Malaysia does the Govt exercise etnic cleansing .
#26 by EARNEST on Friday, 28 December 2007 - 4:02 am
I am as perplexed as you over the Hindraf’s attempt to get Queen Elizabeth II involved with their problems. It was probably a publicity stunt designed to draw attention to their plights.
The manner they resorted to in order to gain attention is unconventional, yet very effective. It should not however negate legitimate grievances, which they attempted to express as a cry of desperation on 25 Nov.2007.
As for May 13, I think there must be a mistake in the interpretation of “the huge replica of brooms supposedly to chase Malays away”. To what avail? It could also be interpreted as a new beginning, cleaning up the mess of the past, sweeping away misfortunes, poverty, etc.
Unless there is an RCI into this tragedy, there will be disputes over truths and untruths until the cows come home.
#27 by shamshul anuar on Saturday, 29 December 2007 - 5:07 pm
Dear Ernest.
Yes. It is a publicity stunt to get international attention. I mean everybody knows how tough or illogical for Hindraf to petition Queen Elizabeth 11 to appoint a Queen Counsel who is expected to sue British Govt( of which she is the sovereign monarch) and if won, would jeopardise her very throne.
But more importantly, why Hindraf lied? Why must it be dishonest about what it stands for? Why must wage war against another community( Malay) in order to demand justice?. Why destroy goodwill be alleging “etnic cleansing” that even non Malays find it nauseating.
Yes. You are right by asking to what avail on broom to chase Malays away”. But that was exactly what happened on May 13. That was happened when emotion is manipulated. And that was what exactly Hindraf was trying to do. Incite hatred. And the result could be a disaster.
What PM did was only to avoid the racial clash . There is no point in taking actions after thousand death. Remember . Prevention is better than cure.
#28 by EARNEST on Monday, 31 December 2007 - 11:12 pm
Has any Chinese or Indians or Bidayuh or or Iban or Portuege Malaysians ever [been] denied the right to speak in their mother tongue.–Shamsul Dec 26,2007
Allowing various ethnic groups to speak their own languages, which are their birthrights is a non-issue. There is no credit to be claimed for allowing something which is only natural to be allowed, like allowing cows to moo, dogs to yelp, and cats to caterwaul
What matters to the Chinese is their right to pursue tertiary education in their own mother tongue. As China is emerging as an economic powerhouse, the Chinese language may play greater role in international trade and commerce.
But, the Chinese community had been denied their constitutional right to establish its own Chinese University in the 80s, despite going to court with a Queen’s Counsel to appeal to the Government. About 20 years later, on Dec 14, 2007, New Era College filed an application to upgrade its status to University. Two other Chinese colleges had already done the same. We have not heard about the results yet. But, during those years since the 80s, all kinds of Universities, including Islamic University have been allowed to be set up. Is there any discrimination here?
——————————————–
PM will be lauded by people like you and Western press if he chose to be lenient( meaning no guts to act). — shamsul Dec 26,2007
The above statement totally went off at a tangent.
Nobody expected the PM to be lenient, but to be reasonable and to have broad shoulders. People expected the PM not to overreact by turning a peaceful Hindraf demonstration aimed at expressing grave grievances into attempted murder of a cop by provoking them, huddling them into temples, locking them up, firing tear gas at them, and shooting strong jets of chemically laced water at them.
YouTube videos permanently captured FRU fring tear gas canisters at the demonstrators, beating up and dragging off Indian youths. If a cop got hit on the head by probably a tear gas canister thrown back at him was attempted murder, then there were many attempted murders committed that day by the FRUs.
People expected the PM to allow Hindraf demonstrators to submit their petition to the British High Commission, whose spokeswoman was ready to receive it. PM should have ensured that the FRUs and police were at the scene not to attack them but to protect them against trouble makers, so that they could exercise their constitutional right of peaceful assembly to express pent-up feelings.
If you do not get overly emotional, you may see justification for the perception of ethnic cleansing basing on the United Nation’s actual definition of the phrase, and what really happened to the aggrieved Hindus. Ethnic cleansing does not necessarily involve bloodbaths, massacres or genocides like what happened in Bosnia. It is not a systematic program at eradication of a race of people. See definition below again.
Ethnic cleansing — The official United Nations definition of ethnic cleansing is “rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious groupâ€. However, ethnic cleansing rarely aims at complete ethnic homogeneity.
Ethnic cleansing can be localized… rendering an area… remove from a given area… ethnic or religious group… rarely aims at complete ethnic homogeneity.
Displacements without compensations due to conversion of estates to townships, lack of education and training leading to gangsterism, destructions of temples without compensations, deaths under police custody, abject poverty etc. leading to the highest suicide rates among the races all gave rise to this perception of localized and sporadic ethnic cleansing.
Of course ethnic cleansing does not mean that the government is aiming at complete ethnic homogeneity by killing Indians systematically, directly or indirectly, otherwise there will be no such things as Little Indias in Klang and Brickfields, and other places where Indians are congregated as in certain parts of the cities and plantation estates.
Occurrence of ethnic cleansing is localized and sporadic, hence the perception.
#29 by EARNEST on Tuesday, 1 January 2008 - 11:41 pm
…PM… ( meaning no guts to act). — shamsul Dec 26,2007
The PM needs more guts to do what is right and against the wishes of hardliners within his party rather than following the path of least resistance, which denied peace-loving people from legitimately exercising their constitutional rights, that of peaceful assemblies.
#30 by shamshul anuar on Friday, 4 January 2008 - 9:27 pm
Dear Ernest.
Manay thanks for your reply. But I beg to differ. Look around and you will find that in some countries , you do not have the privelleges to “retain” the language of the mother tongue. In other countries, you will not find vernacular schools supported by Govt ( which is dominated by the native). In other countries, becoming a minority means you have to change your names, your loyalty questioned.
As for Merdeka Universiti, it was denied as the language proposed to be used is Mandarin, hence denying the chances of non Chinese the places in such university.
And I strongly believe such a university will not help national integration. As for your remark with regards to actions of the Prime Minister when facing these rowdy demonstrators, I am afraid it is misplaced. In the first place, the Hindraf played on racial feeling, a very dangerous act. If left unchecked, it can result in the accused race, The Malays react.
Now imagine 250000 Malays gathering in the heart of Kuala Lumpur , voicing anger of being accused as implementing etnic cleansing. Just imagine. Imagine if 250000 upset people paraded in town and proceed to your neighbourhood. Imagine.
The truth is that many in Hindrtaf gathering are rude, rowdy. You can see yourself how they threw stones and whatever objects they could find. What do you expect police to do. Sit quiet.
I have no respect to thises hooligans. And police is right. A message must be sent. Being overly lenient to these hooligans is a maifastation of weaknesess.
And do remember Hindraf lied. Even non Malays believe that the accusation ( that A Malay dominated Govt sanctioned the killing of Indians as alleged by Hindraf). Call a spade a spade.
#31 by shamshul anuar on Friday, 4 January 2008 - 9:29 pm
Dear Ernest.
Sorry for typo error. The Sentence in the last paragraph should rea as “Even Non Malays do not believe…”
#32 by EARNEST on Wednesday, 9 January 2008 - 9:51 pm
Dear Shamsul,
Thanks for your views.
Our Federal Constitution promises us democracy, justice and right to pursue mother-tongue languages, but they are actually virtual realities.
We should not follow backward countries which deny their citizens their basic rights. Instead we should emulate more advanced civilizations, which keep their promises to protect their citizens’ basic rights.
There would be all kinds of dire consequences, like you said national disunity and exclusion of non-Chinese if Merdeka University was granted. The sky would fall!
Every injustice and unprincipled act was justified as being necessary because of the prevailing situation then.
The Romans had an expression “Fiat justitia, ruat coelum,” “Let justice be done, let the sky fall”, meaning “Do what is right, regardless of the imagined consequences.†In fact this was what the Queen’s Counsel engaged by the Chinese educationists said in a KL High Court in the 80s.
I believe that Merdeka University was not meant to be exclusively for the Chinese, like nobody questions the exclusion of non-Muslims from Islamic University. I believe any Chinese University, Chinese Secondary or Primary school is open to all races. These are business entities.
As for Hindraf demonstrations, the FRUs and the police could have maintained the peace and allowed them just one hour they requested to submit their memorandum to the British High Commission, which was ready to receive it, and there would be no incidents. The demonstrators were not provocative. They were provoked by the police and FRUs instead. There were no signs of anti-demonstrators, since there was no reason for their presence then. Why should there be a confrontation? The fear of racial clashes was unwarranted.
Remember the Roman’s expression “Let justice be done, let the sky fall.”
#33 by Tickler on Wednesday, 9 January 2008 - 10:21 pm
And I know of malays who supported the Hindraf rally. And some even participated.
#34 by Tickler on Wednesday, 9 January 2008 - 10:24 pm
And do remember Hindraf lied. Even non Malays believe that the accusation ( that A Malay dominated Govt sanctioned the killing of Indians as alleged by Hindraf). Call a spade a spade. – Shamsul
In the first place you should learn what a spade is. The fact that the Govt. turned a blind eye to the deaths of indians in police custody makes one inclined to the hindraf view.
#35 by Colonel on Thursday, 10 January 2008 - 12:39 am
I think Shamshul Anuar is young and gullible and believes what he reads. But at least he is honest – though honestly wrong. He has the courage to write on a political blog while clearly subscribing to views typical of those who support UMNO. He says he is not an UMNO member. Let’s give that to him.
I think posters should not be too eager to knock him to size so to speak. Commentators like Shamshul allows us a useful insight into the Malay psyche today. We are interested in winning him over through rational arguments rather than give in to our basic emotional instincts to bash him for his beliefs.
#36 by Colonel on Thursday, 10 January 2008 - 12:46 am
If there are 331 postings on the thread on the invocation of the nefarious Internal Security Act against the Hindraf Five, this will be a new record this blog can feel proud.
As it is, there is nothing to be proud at all, but to be very ashamed and distressed at the scores of postings which hijack the thread which trivialise the ISA detentions and the serious issues discussed.
There is only one person who is gleefully following the descent of this blog – the Information Minister, Zainuddin Maidin who will be able to tell the world that Malaysians are just “goblok†and do not have the maturity to handle freedom of expression, whether cyberspace or terrestrial.
I believe I am not the only one distressed by the blog’s descent and I call on all posters to end this “war†and get back to the issues raised by the threads and to contribute to raise the quality of the discussion rather than the reverse.
Kit
#37 by KS R on Thursday, 10 January 2008 - 2:41 am
Hi
I think Shamshul Anuar is uneducated or uncivilized, he my be racialist like some of the empty vessel in the UMNO.
My dear friend, Hindraf requested permits but not approved. They did a peacefully gathering but your Police is the want attack the Indians brutally by using tear Gas / Chemical gas and so on. You know something it was peacefully gathering, if not there will be different scenario. Did you watch the video and photo, which can tell you the truth? The incident happen in Batu Cave, it was set up by political gangsters.
Your UMNO cannot face the truth, thats why 5 leaders were arrested in the ISA. If your UMNO happens to be civilized they should call for a meeting with leaders. You know Shamshul, one of the leaders has submitted 100 over letters to Badawi but even one letter was not replied.
DAP / PKR and Pas, well educated they can reason the rights and wrong. Hindraf is requesting their rights. Indians and Chinese born here why they was not issued bumiputra status. But your friend khairy born in Kuwait but Bumiputra status similar to many Indonesian also have the bumi status.
Why your corruption leaders was not arrested or brought to justice. If you still support BN then one day our Government will bankrupt. Time to change Government Shamsul
#38 by Colonel on Thursday, 10 January 2008 - 4:37 am
Earnie aka Daftnee,
You need to do better than replying to an old post (about a week old which nobody now reads) and then hoping to divert attention to your ‘learned contribution to discourse on this blog’ with lurid references to “the woman’s vulva and the regrowth of the clitoris”! Haven’t you had enough of the dirty talk??
You tried to do that earlier using another old thread. I’m beginning to believe what Jong the lady commentator said when she referred to you as DOM or short for ‘dirty old man’.
#39 by Colonel on Thursday, 10 January 2008 - 4:39 am
This thread is about a month old! Come to the current thread and make your contribution so others can read.
#40 by EARNEST on Thursday, 10 January 2008 - 10:30 pm
Nothing written was dirty, but your mind is. Because of that, your opinions are mental aberrations, not to be heeded.
Do you notice that I seldom respond to your unwarranted provocations? This is because your perceived character is commensurate with my response to your comments — infinitesimal.
#41 by shamshul anuar on Thursday, 10 January 2008 - 10:57 pm
Dear KSR.
I refer to your remarks with regards to my responses on Hindraf. Rest assured neither me nor UMNO is racist. Yes. There are racist among mankind, Hindraf among other.
Hindraf leaders played to the gallery. It purposely incited the Indians vs UMNO, Malays, Islam. It was less than honest by not revealing the whole truth about a demolition of a temple in Selangor.
And the saga simply showed one thing to Malays. How some people go to great length to give some justification to whatever Hindraf said. And I hope PM learnt his lesson here. Nobody respects a leader who took his sweet time to arrest these 5 leaders. Several very senior UMNO members( the rank of Deputy and Vice Presidents) were asked point blank by UMNO and members why PM took time to arrest these 5 people.
The permit was not approved as it was racial in nature. And Govt already realized about how Hindraf had been inciting Indians from many of its ceramah since July last year.
As for dissatisfaction, not only Indians are not satisfied. Malays are also not happy with several incidents showing some rude people mocking their faiths, not to mention putting squarely the blame on May 13th 1969 clash on Malays.
As for your remarks on bumi/non bumi status, rest assured that A chinese also can become CEO in a bank with Malay being the largest shareholders. I am afraid Malays are dreaming thinking vice versa is possible. I am afraid Malays are also dreaming thinking they can win in A Chinese majority area in any election.
For those who are so eager to allow so called “freedom of expression” , just imagine if thety are at the receiving end. You know , the feeling like having hot blooded 200000 Malays protesting against insult by Hindraf. Just imagine the disaster that can happen should a wrong thing happens there. Whatever the cause , the result is still the same. A disaster in the making.
#42 by EARNEST on Monday, 14 January 2008 - 12:03 am
Shamsul,
Thank you for your response.
“Fiat justitia, ruat coelum.â€
The rest will take care of themselves.
We need to have faith in the capability of our law enforcement personnel to keep 200000 people of any ethnic group from causing mayhem to peaceful assemblies for expression of genuine grievances.
Otherwise, what use is a country’s law and order set-up if it cannot even prevent unruly hot-blooded people from taking the laws into their own hands in suppressing an aggrieved group from exercising their basic constitutional right?
#43 by shamshul anuar on Tuesday, 15 January 2008 - 9:36 pm
Dear Ernest.
Many thanks for your view. Nobody is denying any Malaysian from exercising constitutional right. But why must wage war against another community in order to highlight whatever grievances.
Yes. We must have faith in our enforcement personnel. Actually I am surprise that you ( jugding from your previous remarks) that you have faith in our police. So lease extend your faith to manifast respect to police in not allowing this demonstration, hiding behind so called” freedom of speech” but in reality is hatred.
#44 by EARNEST on Tuesday, 15 January 2008 - 11:48 pm
Dear Shamsul,
You appear to question the consistency of my faith in the police.
In the first instance, yes, you are right that I did deplore the manner the police manhandled Indian Malaysians gathering in Batu Cave.
In the second instance, I did say that we need to have faith in the police in maintaining the peace should 200,000 demonstrators threaten to disrupt peaceful assemblies.
The police as you know are only following instructions from their bosses. In the first instance, if they were instructed not to abuse their power, they could have restrained themselves. In the second instance, if they are instructed to prevent anti-demonstrators from disrupting peaceful demonstrators, i believe being heavily armed and protected, they can do it. That is why I had said that we need to have faith that they can maintain the peace, without suppressing public expressions of pent-up feelings through peaceful assemblies.
Shamsul, I do not believe there was any attempt by Indian demonstrators at waging war against the Malays, and that they were motivated by hatred, and demonstrated under the guise of freedom of speech. All these could have been imagined, and dire consequences of peaceful assemblies could also be imagined. However, admittedly, there were anger and frustrations at being marginalized. Let peaceful demonstrations be safety valves for the release of potentially explosive tensions.
That is the reason why I had suggested you consider what the Romans said “Fiat justitia, ruat coelum.†meaning “Do what is right, regardless of the imagined consequences.†Denial of this maxim may lead to a police state or a dictatorship.
#45 by shamshul anuar on Wednesday, 16 January 2008 - 10:56 pm
Dear Ernest.
I beg to differ. Malays began to take note of the strings of hatred speeches by Hindraf since last July. Yes. The majority of Indians are not waging war against Malays. But Hindraf does wage war against the Malays.
Hindraf lied to the Indians with regards to demolition of a temple in Selangor. Itwas not honest about the issue. It puprposely told Indians that the temple was demolished before Deepavali. The fact is that the temple was demolished after Depavali, following request by temple management.
Why it lied. To incite the Indians against the Govt( meaning the Malay dominated govt). Hindraf clearly said that its enemy is UMNO. Unless you are oblivious to reality, you may not realize that the statement is perceived by Malays as a threat to them.
What was wrong by banning such a demonstration if the intention had already been known to the Govt and Malays. And the accusation is an insult to Malays, Islam and UMNO. Malays were accused of a very cruel act: etnic cleansing.
As the intention is already bad, what is the guarantee that the demonstration would be peaceful. Any authority would be forced to act.
Yes. Do what isright. That is what exactly the police did.