Secular/Islamic state contention just word-play or argument over labels?


As I said at the DAP public forum “An Islamic State after 50 years?” at the KL/Selangor Chinese Assembly Hall on 25th July 2007, there are diverse non-Muslim responses to the “717 Declaration” by the Deputy Prime Minister, Datuk Seri Najib Razak on July 17, 2007 that Malaysia is an Islamic state and not and had never been a secular state.

One is to deride the claim that Malaysia is an Islamic state, asking how anyone could entertain the notion that Malaysia is an Islamic state when gambling and alcohol are allowed in the country.

Another is to ask how Malaysia could be an Islamic state when there is no full implementation of the hudud and syariah laws.

I also quoted an Islamic scholar Asghar Ali Engineer as representing another school questioning the validity of the “Islamic state” claim, arguing that an Islamic state should have the following characteristics: (1) it should be absolutely non-discriminatory on the basis of race, colour, language and nationality; (2) it should guarantee gender equality; (3) it should guarantee equal rights to all religious groups and accept plurality of religion as legitimate; and (4) lastly it should be democratic in nature whose basic premise will be human dignity. Asghar Ali Engineer concluded his contention: “Only those states which fulfill these criteria can be construed to be Islamic in nature. Thus an Islamic state is the very epitome of modern democratic pluralistic state. (The Concept of Islamic State — Asghar Ali Engineer)

There is certain validity in these three and other arguments challenging the claim that Malaysia is an Islamic state, but they failed to capture the whole dynamics and implications of the Islamic state contention.

On the part of Muslims in Malaysia, there are also those who reject the claim of top Umno leaders that Malaysia is an Islamic state.

But there are also those like ABIM who defended the Islamic state claim, declaring that Malaysia has been an Islamic state in practice ever since Independence.

Dr. Chandra Muzaffar argues Malaysia is not a secular state within the conventional use of the term and neither is it an Islamic state in the classical sense. He said it is unwise to insist that Malaysia is a secular state or an Islamic state which will only widen the chasm between the communities and exacerbate ethnic tensions.

Are the contentions between “Secular state” and “Islamic State” just word-play and a problem with labels?

There is very pertinent article in the Journal of Southeast Asian Studies, 37(2), pp 249-266 June 2006 by Joseph M. Fernando from the Department of History, University of Malaya who delved into recently-available primary constitutional documents between 1956 and 1957 to trace the origin of Article 3(1) of the Federal Constitution and to determine the intentions of the framers in inserting this provision in the constitution.

These primary constitutional documents include the minutes of the Working Party which reviewed the Reid Constitutional Commission report; the documents relating to the Constitutional talks in London in May 1957; the Constitutional papers of the Alliance Party; and Colonial Office documents relating to the Constitution-making process.

These are some of the excerpts from Joseph Fernando’s article:

“The Reid Constitutional Commission, which drafted the 1957 Malayan Federal Constitution between June 1956 and February 1957, did not provide for an article declaring Islam the religion of the Federation despite the Alliance Party’s request in its memorandum to the Commission that this be done. This was largely because the Commissioners felt that such a provision would contradict the secular nature of the state. Further, they took note of the strong objections of the Malay Rulers to the inclusion of such a provision. The Alliance memorandum urging the Commission to provide for Islam as the religion of the Federation had stated unequivocally that such a provision would not impose any disability on non-Muslims and did not imply that the state was not secular.” — (p. 253)

“While officially the Reid Commission cited the submissions of the Rulers in omitting a provision making Islam the religion of the state, in private the Commission expressed concern over the contradiction between the Alliance’s declaration that Malaya would be a secular state and its proposal for Islam to be the official religion of the Federation.” (p. 254)

“When the Working Party, comprising the Alliance and Rulers’ representatives and the High Commissioner, met for the first time on 22 February 1957 to review the Reid Commission’s draft, the Alliance and UMNO chief Tunku Abdul Rahman requested that an article declaring Islam the religion of the Federation be included in the new Constitution, as had been proposed in the Alliance memorandum. The Tunku assured the committee that the state would be secular… In the Working Party, UMNO leaders had argued that the provision for an official religion would have an important psychological impact on Malays… The MCA and MIC representatives in the Working Party did not raise any objection to the insertion of the new article, despite concerns expressed by many non-Muslim organizations, as they were assured by their UMNO colleagues that it was intended to have symbolic significance rather than practical effect, and that the civil and political rights of the non-Muslims would not be impaired.” (p.257-258)

“The possibility of Article 2A (later renumbered Article 3) on state religion being misinterpreted was also raised (in the 19th Working Party Meeting on 17th April 1957)… On the possibility of the provision on religion being misinterpreted, the Tunku assured the Working Party that ‘the whole Constitution was framed on the basis that the Federation would be a secular state’. The minutes of the 19th Meeting are perhaps the clearest indication of the real intentions of the Allinace leaders. The Tunku, in this instance, states unequivocally that the whole Constitution was framed on the basis that the Federation would be a secular state.” (p. 259-260).

“At the London Constitutional talks in May 1957, the Colonial Office, while apprehensive at first of Article 3 providing for an official religion, did not object after being assured by the Alliance leaders that they ‘had no intention of creating a Muslim theocracy and that Malaya would be a secular state’.” (p. 260)

“In Malaya, the Alliance government tabled a White Paper in Parliament in July 1957 to explain the changes made to the Reid Commission’s draft Constitution by the Working Party in Kuala Lumpur in March and the tripartite body at the constitutional talks in London in May. The White Paper (Legislative Council Paper No. 42 of 1957) explained that while a new provision, Article 3, declaring Islam the religion of the Federation was now included in the Constitution, this would not affect the position of the Federation as a secular state, or the powers and privileges of the Malay Rulers as Heads of Religion in their respective states.” (p. 262)

“In the ensuing debate in the Malaysian Parliament on 10 July 1957… .The Tunku did not attempt to go beyond the White Paper to explain the meaning of this provision. But his colleague (later Tun) Tan Siew Sin’s remarks on the provision while speaking in the House in support of the Constitutional bill, reinforces the intention of the Alliance leaders in inserting Article 3 in the Constitution. Tan told the Federal legislature that although it had been provided that Islam would be the official religion, it had also been expressly laid down that ‘this does not in any way derogate from the principle, which has always been accepted, that Malaya will be a secular state and that there will be complete freedom to practice any other religion. Tan’s remarks indicate clearly the consensus reached by the Alliance parties.’ (p.263).

In his conclusion on the “intentions of the framers of the Constitution”, Joseph Fernando wrote:

“The passage of time has blurred the real intentions of the Malaysian framers of the Constitution and some recent scholarly works and discussions have questioned the secular basis of the state. An inadequate examination of the primary documents has largely contributed to these varied interpretations. The problem is not limited to scholars alone. Barely a year after independence, the Prime Minister Tunku Abdul Rahman had to clarify the meaning of this provision during a debate in the Legislative Council. Said the Tunku: ‘I would like to make it clear that this country is not an Islamic State as it is generally understood, we merely provide that Islam shall be the official religion of the State.’ The historical evidence presented in this article, based on primary documents, clearly affirms the secular basis of the state.”

I have no doubt that the first three Prime Ministers, Tunku Abdul Rahman, Tun Razak and Tun Hussein would have had no hesitation in any period of their lives to reaffirm that Malaysia is a secular state with Islam as the official religion and not an Islamic state.

On the nation’s 50th Merdeka anniversary, are there any leaders in the ruling coalition who is prepared to reaffirm the Merdeka social contract and Malaysia Agreement that Malaysia is a secular state with Islam as the official religion but not an Islamic state?

It is clear from Joseph Fernando’s research and article, the contention over the terms “secular state” and “Islamic state” are not just word play or a problem of labeling, but are very grave issues with the most far-reaching implications for the nation and the citizenry as the abandonment of the 50-year-old secular basis of nation-building represents a tectonic shift in jettisoning the core and essence of nation-building agreed by the forefathers of the major communities on the attainment of Independence and establishment of Malaysia which could only undermine Malaysia’s pluralist diversity and global competitiveness.

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  1. #1 by RealWorld on Friday, 10 August 2007 - 10:04 am

    “I wonder if once we take away their right to steal, they will show their true colours and brandish their keris !” – Godfather

    I have a different opinion and the likes of you resort to hurling insults, name calling and all. Who do you think is acting more like a thug?

  2. #2 by RealWorld on Friday, 10 August 2007 - 10:07 am

    “……….Razak…..to now Najib waiting in line.
    …………..Onn Jaffar….Hussein Onn……Hishamuddin (waiting in line)
    Mahathir…….sons waiting
    AAB…….Son in law waiting.” – lakshy

    Based on your argument, I can then also conclude the following ;

    Hsien Loong …. his chidren in waiting …. err grandchildren in waiting
    Ho Ching …. her family members in waiting

    We be consistent la.

  3. #3 by ENDANGERED HORNBILL on Friday, 10 August 2007 - 10:13 am

    The research by Joseph M. Fernando from the Department of History, University of Malaya is very illuminating indeed. It is obvious that early PMs like Tunku Abdul Rahman, Tun Razak, Tun Hussein Onn were aware of the historical background and the rationale for this.

    Surviving PMs like Tun M had chosen to ignore the legacy and heritage and veered off the proven track to curry the favour of one race and the bastion of their political support by playing on the religion issue. This is shortsighted, parochial and downright dangerous when playing with the fires of racial harmony. Since Tun M’s rise to power on the calculated cards of race and religion, subsequent leaders have tried to outdo each other and be more Malay and more Muslim than their UMNO colleague to win favour and support in the party.

    It will now take great insight and statesmanship to steer the ship in the right direction. This cannot be achieved by UMNO which is now like an albatross around Malaysia’s neck. MAlaysia needs to dump this UMNO albatross and move ahead in the world. But this soaring can only be achieved without UMNO, without MCA, without Gerakan aand other BN poodles which have all become lap dogs that licks UMNO’s *****.

  4. #4 by RealWorld on Friday, 10 August 2007 - 10:21 am

    “Time to change, vote oppositions.” – ihavesomethingtosay

    What does the Opposition has to offer??
    In the first place, they are not even united. All they have is a marriage of convenience. The rakyat have rejected such a marriage before because it is not long term.
    How are you going to govern and administer the country when you are not even united?
    DAP & PAS are like chicken and duck
    PKR when they are with DAP, they be silent on the islamic state issue. But when they are with PAS, they stand on islamic state. So, which is which?
    DAP’s Msian Malaysia idealogy but the entire party and leadership is say 95% chinese (fair comment?).
    The Opposition go to the elections under their various party banners and that alone is indicative enough that theirs is no united front.

    Vote for the Opposition … on what basis?? Based on the petty insults and name calling thrown by the likes of Godfather, who see himself as a Rottweiler, a dog??

    Hmmmm …. I dont know maybe the next GE, the rakyat should give it to the Opposition. Let this motley crew run the nation for 5 years and then we see how.

    Over to you … the rakyat

  5. #5 by ENDANGERED HORNBILL on Friday, 10 August 2007 - 10:33 am

    THe mentality fostered amonst BN assemblymen is epitomized in Najib’s statement where he urged all assemblymen to adopt the “4J” principle in their approach beginning first with “jaga diri (take care of yourself)”, the “jaga rakyat (take care of the people), jaga kawasan (take care of your constituency) and jaga parti (take care of the party).” will come later.

    In fact, I think their policy has always been ‘jaga sendiri’ first….the rest can share the crumbs; the Rakyat last!

  6. #6 by RealWorld on Friday, 10 August 2007 - 10:36 am

    “But this soaring can only be achieved without UMNO, without MCA, without Gerakan aand other BN poodles which have all become lap dogs that licks UMNO’s *****.” _ ENDANGERED HORNBILL

    Dear ENDANGERED HORNBILL,

    Why resort to name calling? BN poodles, lap dogs, licks UMNO’s ***** etc , no need to resort to such rough language if you are unhappy. As citizens, if we are unhappy there is the democratic process where we get to select the leaders of our choice.

    Have you forgotten your “Malaysia needs leaders with a cosmopolitan mind, peaceable attributes that can foster harmony amongst its diverse populations” ? I believe having a cosmopolitan mind and peaceable attributes will NEVER resort to petty insults.

  7. #7 by shaolin on Friday, 10 August 2007 - 10:45 am

    Malaysia is a Buddhist State!! There are so many temples in
    Malaysia, so it is a Buddhist State. The Buddhist temples
    include Races from Indians and Chinese…

    We Must Not let Others to dictate and decide our FATEs,
    instead We Ought to decide Our Own Fates BUT no one
    else should do that for us except Our very own Selves!!!

    We are against One Race Policy!!!

    Wake up MORONs!!!

  8. #8 by Godfather on Friday, 10 August 2007 - 10:58 am

    RealWorld:

    Calling you a poodle is actually an endearing term. It refers to your habit of smelling your masters’ @sses and barking at everyone that complains about your masters.

    We have decided on regime change, and you have agreed that the rakyat should decide. Let’s leave it at that. The rakyat will decide.

  9. #9 by Godfather on Friday, 10 August 2007 - 11:00 am

    And you should tell your UMNO masters not to threaten us with foul language, name calling, and the keris. Tell your UMNO masters we also take exception to their threats to spill blood. Foul language and name-calling is not the exclusive right of UMNO.

  10. #10 by undergrad2 on Friday, 10 August 2007 - 11:11 am

    “ANother fella tells him Secular, he will say secular…” smear guru

    No, he thought they were saying ‘circular’ and so his argument since has been circular.

  11. #11 by ENDANGERED HORNBILL on Friday, 10 August 2007 - 12:02 pm

    RealWorld Says:

    August 10th, 2007 at 10: 36.32
    “But this soaring can only be achieved without UMNO, without MCA, without Gerakan aand other BN poodles which have all become lap dogs that licks UMNO’s *****.” _ ENDANGERED HORNBILL

    Calling UMNO an albatross and MCA, MIC, GERAKAN etc as poodles and lap dogs is not insulting. Calling Tony Blair an American poodle is also not insulting. It’s calling them by their REAL name, or almost.

    Calling a lemon a plum doesn’t make it a plum. The lemon will taste just as sour. Similarly, calling UMNO an albatross doesn’t make it a vulture, though the latter name fits just as snugly. UMNO, as an albatross around the neck, simply means that having them around is like spinning giddily around the same old tracks of corruption, racism, religious extremism, nepotism, incompetence, brigandry, braggartism (‘world class’ – everything little thing is world-class to UMNO including taking a space taxi!) etc. etc. I can go on but I don’t want to humour a ‘nice’ guy who is probably overpaid by UMNO to write gibberish in serious webblogs. Oh, and to stick to the oint on the albatross – an UMNO albatross keeps causing the same problems and stops you from being successful, from being really world-class.

    And, this next bit is for your education. Since you, like the majority of UMNO’s albatrosses have been described in RPK’s blog as reading and understanding little English, learn this. An albatross is a large white bird. In the poem “The Rime of the Ancient mariner” by Samuel Taylor Coleridge, a man on a ship kills an albatross which is then hung round his neck to show that he has brought bad luck! You see UMNO, MCA, MIC, GERAKAN, etc. brings bad luck, bad Feng Shui for the country. That’s the meaning of albatross in this context.

    By the way, “The Rime of the Ancient mariner” by Samuel Taylor Coleridge is in the International ‘Ordinary’ Level syllabus for the Cambridge or Edexcel examinations, UK. I don’t mean to insult you but I guess Realworld, you’ve not progressed so far. Still with your PMR, I guess. Best of luck in yr coming PMR exams.

    And for the meaning of a poodle, I don’t have to tell a poodle he is a poodle. They are blindly obedient and would die for their masters; such is the unthinking devotion of dogs; they only obey simple commands. Arf. Arf. Realworld, “Go and lick UMNO’s *****”.

  12. #12 by ENDANGERED HORNBILL on Friday, 10 August 2007 - 12:07 pm

    Realworld, you will get yr dog biscuits and a bowl of milk tonight.

  13. #13 by RealWorld on Friday, 10 August 2007 - 1:20 pm

    “Arf. Arf. Realworld, “Go and lick UMNO’s *****”.” – ENDANGERED HORNBILL

    World class, eh? :(
    I guess reading Samuel Taylor Coleridge didnt do you much help.
    I rest my case.

  14. #14 by RealWorld on Friday, 10 August 2007 - 1:27 pm

    “Realworld, you will get yr dog biscuits and a bowl of milk tonight.” – ENDANGERED HORNBILL

    Print and show this to your mummy and daddy. Am sure they be real proud of your accomplishments.

  15. #15 by RealWorld on Friday, 10 August 2007 - 1:44 pm

    Godfather,

    You calling yourself ‘I am a Rottweiler’, I guess is also an endearing term. You are merely refering to your habit of turning around each time you take a dump and sniffing your turd, eh?

    As a dog, what other tricks do you know?

  16. #16 by Jeffrey on Friday, 10 August 2007 - 2:23 pm

    Commenters in this Blog have mastered the art of verbal warfare and turned it to state of art. :)

  17. #17 by i_love_malaysia on Friday, 10 August 2007 - 2:44 pm

    “Secular/Islamic state contention just word-play or argument over labels? ”

    IT IS NOT JUST WORD-PLAY OR ARGUMENT OVER LABELS!!

    LET ME GIVE AN EG. , IF OUR CONSTITUTION SAYS THAT WE CAN KILL SOMEONE AND IF WITHIN 24HOURS, WE ARE NOT CAUGHT BY THE POLICE, WE ARE A FREE MAN, WHAT DO YOU THINK THIS NATION WILL BE? WE MAY SAY THAT WE ARE ALL LAW ABIDING CITIZENS AND WE WONT KILL ANYONE EVEN THOUGH THE CONSTITUTION PROVIDES FOR SUCH A CLAUSE AND WE WILL NEVER USE IT. BUT THE TRUTH IS IF SOMEONE OR A GROUP OF PEOPLE USE THIS CLAUSE TO JUSTIFY THEIR ACTION BY KILLING SOMEONE, THOSE WHO DONT AGREE WITH THEIR ACTION WILL HAVE TO LIVE WITH IT OR TO GET THE CONSTITUTION CHANGED OR RESORT TO OTHER MEANS TO SHOW THEIR DISAPPROVAL!! E.G. REVOLUTION. NO ONE ELSE WILL COME TO OUR HELP IF OUR LAWS SAY SO!!

    SO, IT IS IMPORTANT THAT WE MUST DECLARE WHETHER WE ARE AN ISLAMIC STATE OR A SECULAR STATE, UNLESS WE DONT ABIDE BY THE CONSTITUTION AT ALL!!!

  18. #18 by ADAM YONG IBNI ABDULLAH on Friday, 10 August 2007 - 3:00 pm

    godfather and realworld seems to have a love hate realtionship between them. hei, you are using this medium to call each other names. come on, be nice to each other.
    how to be united. agreed to disagreed but stick to the main principle. ok.

    yb lim,
    you dont seem to comment on our comments.
    i think you should.
    rgds

  19. #19 by Godfather on Friday, 10 August 2007 - 3:30 pm

    Adam Yong:

    At least we use endearing terms on each other, and the UMNO guy doesn’t wave his keris or tell me to leave the country. This is not exactly the relationship that exists between UMNO Youth and the rest of the component parties. In that sense, I am a lucky guy.

  20. #20 by ADAM YONG IBNI ABDULLAH on Friday, 10 August 2007 - 10:00 pm

    thanks godfather . violence begets violence. i respect you sir.
    endearing terms. nice choice of words.

  21. #21 by RealWorld on Friday, 10 August 2007 - 11:26 pm

    “And you should tell your UMNO masters not to threaten us with foul language, name calling, and the keris. Tell your UMNO masters we also take exception to their threats to spill blood.” – Godfather

    Dude, really you need to stay on the subject matter. And the subject matter is whether you can hold a discussion without resorting to name calling or petty insults.

  22. #22 by devilmaster on Saturday, 11 August 2007 - 1:43 am

    “Dude, really you need to stay on the subject matter. And the subject matter is whether you can hold a discussion without resorting to name calling or petty insults.” – RealWorld
    __________________________________________

    What’s wrong with name-calling & petty insults? You come into a DAP leader’s blog and you want to set your own rules of no name-calling & no petty insults?

    If SIL Khairi could call bloggers as monkey, why Godfather cannot call you a dog? If Zainuddin Maidin could call others as goblok, why I cannot call you a dullard?

  23. #23 by undergrad2 on Saturday, 11 August 2007 - 3:56 am

    I think Malaysia is now a Pariah State.

  24. #24 by undergrad2 on Saturday, 11 August 2007 - 3:57 am

    You don’t think Malaysia is now a Pariah State??

  25. #25 by Godfather on Saturday, 11 August 2007 - 10:19 am

    Definition of pariah is that of being shunned, of being an outcast. Badawi will claim of success at the recent Langkawi summit of South-south cooperation.

    Nah, I think we are a cuckoo state – and our neighbours know it, but won’t say it.

  26. #26 by RealWorld on Saturday, 11 August 2007 - 5:17 pm

    “What’s wrong with name-calling & petty insults? You come into a DAP leader’s blog and you want to set your own rules of no name-calling & no petty insults?

    If SIL Khairi could call bloggers as monkey, why Godfather cannot call you a dog? If Zainuddin Maidin could call others as goblok, why I cannot call you a dullard?” – devilmaster

    Are you saying name calling and petty insults the DAP way?
    If that is the case, please, please go ahead and throw all those petty insults my way. Do your worst ok?
    And by the way, your Godfather see himself as a Rottweiler. Well, do remember to take that doggy of yours out for a walk, ok?

  27. #27 by devilmaster on Saturday, 11 August 2007 - 5:59 pm

    “Are you saying name calling and petty insults the DAP way?
    If that is the case, please, please go ahead and throw all those petty insults my way. Do your worst ok?
    And by the way, your Godfather see himself as a Rottweiler. Well, do remember to take that doggy of yours out for a walk, ok?” – RealWorld
    _________________________________________-

    Did i mentioned it is DAP way? Are you assuming yourself or putting me in a bad limelight? I prefer to take a real dog out, like you; not a human being like Godfather.

  28. #28 by undergrad2 on Saturday, 11 August 2007 - 7:44 pm

    “I think we are a cuckoo state” Godfather

    Malaysia is neither an Islamic, nor secular nor cuckoo but a police state.

  29. #29 by RealWorld on Saturday, 11 August 2007 - 7:51 pm

    Yo devilmaster,

    I like the way you wriggle. Your “You come into a DAP leader’s blog and you want to set your own rules of no name-calling & no petty insults?” pretty much gave it away, dude.
    Not assuming, just highlighting to you your statement. :)

  30. #30 by devilmaster on Saturday, 11 August 2007 - 7:57 pm

    Alright. We shall move on to other newer topics.

  31. #31 by RealWorld on Saturday, 11 August 2007 - 10:31 pm

    Finally saw the light, eh?
    Ok. :)

  32. #32 by devilmaster on Saturday, 11 August 2007 - 10:47 pm

    What “light” are you talking about? I am not aware of it. Just that you are too defensive in this topic, making me bored. Let’s move on to other topics.

  33. #33 by RealWorld on Saturday, 11 August 2007 - 10:56 pm

    Ok then , kindly explain what you meant by …”You come into a DAP leader’s blog and you want to set your own rules of no name-calling & no petty insults?”

  34. #34 by devilmaster on Saturday, 11 August 2007 - 11:34 pm

    It has been clearly explained in plain english. Just ask your elders if you are not clear.

  35. #35 by RealWorld on Saturday, 11 August 2007 - 11:58 pm

    Ohhh …. is this “If SIL Khairi could call bloggers as monkey, why Godfather cannot call you a dog? If Zainuddin Maidin could call others as goblok, why I cannot call you a dullard?” the explaination??

  36. #36 by devilmaster on Sunday, 12 August 2007 - 12:22 am

    Notice the “WHY” there. Check the dictionary the meaning of “WHY”.

  37. #37 by RealWorld on Sunday, 12 August 2007 - 12:31 am

    So it is perfectly ok to insult just because others do it?

    Now I know your reason for saying I plundered the nation’s wealth!

  38. #38 by Godfather on Sunday, 12 August 2007 - 2:17 am

    Dude: Would have been much safer for you to say “saya tak tahu” instead of spinning till you are confused.

  39. #39 by mateRealWorld on Sunday, 12 August 2007 - 4:42 am

    Dear RealWorld,

    “Wonder how many other usernames you have here?”

    For your information, that is my first post on this blog. I use the name, mateRealWorld, simply because it means “mate of RealWorld”, in case you don’t get what it means, mate means friend. I want to be your friend, hence the name.

    I have to say that you’ve spurred me to contribute my opinions here. I’ve to be totally frank with you that the above question of yours insinuates a petty insult, and it hurts me badly. I hope that I’m not reading things that aren’t there. I truly hope that I’m wrong here.

    Please discuss without hurling petty insults at one another, I implore you…

  40. #40 by RealWorld on Sunday, 12 August 2007 - 12:30 pm

    “Dude: Would have been much safer for you to say “saya tak tahu” instead of spinning till you are confused.” – Godfather

    For someone who see himself as a dog, I wonder who is in a confused state.
    A rottweiler. A dog, an animal.
    Need I say more.

  41. #41 by RealWorld on Sunday, 12 August 2007 - 12:33 pm

    “…in case you don’t get what it means, mate means friend. I want to be your friend, hence the name.” – mateRealWorld

    zzzzz
    Try harder

  42. #42 by Godfather on Sunday, 12 August 2007 - 1:55 pm

    Ever seen what a rottweiler does to a poodle ? No, this is not a threat, so don’t take it negatively. This is reality.

  43. #43 by devilmaster on Sunday, 12 August 2007 - 8:36 pm

    “So it is perfectly ok to insult just because others do it?” RealWorld
    ____________________________________-

    Is is not Ok then? Let us discuss it.

  44. #44 by mateRealWorld on Tuesday, 14 August 2007 - 2:49 am

    RealWorld,

    You have been assuming the moral high ground in your replies, but when someone else serves it back to you nicely on a platter, you can’t accept it gracefully. You’ve really made me drop my glasses, big time.

    If I were to keep on harping on you on this issue, I’d be no different from you. I’d better stop now. Sigh…

  45. #45 by ktteokt on Thursday, 20 September 2007 - 10:19 am

    What are the non-halal, uncircumcised IDIOTS doing in an Islamic government?

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