Deputy Prime Minister, Datuk Seri Najib Razak said yesterday that the Bar Council’s persistence in going ahead with a forum on conversion to Islam has triggered extreme reaction from certain quarters, which in turn would threaten the country’s harmony.
He added that he had expected the extreme reaction to occur as the council ignored advice to call off the forum.
Is this an admission that UMNO had plotted for the extreme reaction to the Bar Council forum on religious conversions in Kuala Lumpur on Saturday – including the deplorable and disgraceful police conduct in submitting to the ultimatum by demonstrators threatening to storm into the Bar Council auditorium to disrupt the forum if the half-day forum was not ended by 10 am?
This must be the first time in the history of the Malaysian police force where it had openly and publicly submitted to the threats of demonstrators to commit an offence, i.e. to storm into a private property to disrupt a lawful meeting!
Can the Inspector-General of Police, Tan Sri Musa Hassan and the Home Minister, Datuk Seri Syed Hamid Albar defend and justify the shocking failure of the police to uphold law and order on Saturday?
It is an indictment on the failure of nation-building that in a month the country is to celebrate the 51st Merdeka anniversary that Malaysians are reminded that there is increasingly less space for open, civil and rational discussion on the problems and challenges of creating a Bangsa Malaysia of diverse races, cultures and religions.
The Bar Council had made it very clear that the forum was not to challenge the position of Islam as provided in the Constitution but to deal with the problems of the conflict of laws in the application of civil and syariah laws arising from Article 121(1A) of the Constitution.
This can be fully borne out from the one-hour discussion at the Bar Council forum before it was so shamefully truncated.
Could any one produce any evidence that the position of Islam as provided in the Constitution was being challenged from the one-hour discussion of the Bar Council forum before its disruption?
It is indeed sad and tragic that the demonstration against the Bar Council forum saw some elements of Umno, PKR and PAS united on a fictitious issue – the non-existent challenge of the position of Islam in Malaysia as provided in the constitution.
If all parties concerned can unite on the critical issues facing the nation, like wiping out corruption, fighting injustice and eradicating poverty, then Malaysia will be heading for national and international greatness and not like today, sliding down the slippery slope of mediocrity!
DAP has raised strong objections with the PKR leadership on the role of the PKR MP for Kulim Bandar Baharu Zulkifli Noordin in storming the Bar Council forum and I have been informed that disciplinary action would be taken against him.
The Pakatan Rakyat leadership will have to address the Pakatan Rakyat disarray over this issue.
Will the Barisan Nasional Supreme Council meet to discuss the similar disarray of the BN component parties or will the other 13 BN component parties just have accept the UMNO line because of the continued UMNO political hegemony in the Barisan Nasional?
#1 by Tulip Crescent on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 1:29 pm
Irresponsible elements such as Zulkifli Nordin must be brought to book, at least symbolically. They and their agenda must never be allowed to hold sway.
#2 by Toyol on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 1:54 pm
As usual, race politics takes precedence over common sense. UMNO will never give up its only weapon of using race politics to meet it own interests.
#3 by limkamput on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 1:56 pm
Whether or not UMNO instigated the demonstration is another issue. The fact is PAS and PKR senior members and MPs participated in it. I am still waiting for official statements from PAS and DAP on this issue. I have an inkling that every political party is playing politics to the keel.
#4 by oknyua on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 1:57 pm
“….or will the other 13 BN component parties just have accept the UMNO line because of the continued UMNO political hegemony in the Barisan Nasional?”
You said it all YB Lim.
#5 by limkamput on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 2:09 pm
Sorry, my posting above was based on my earlier understanding of the issue. Ok, DAP has raised the issue with PKR to take disciplinary action against Zul. I am still waiting for PAS’ official statement. We need to know PAS’ stand on this. Otherwise we can all forget about PR. It will be no difference to our future. It will be no difference because the country will be struck in third tribal mentality with no hope of doing anything right.
I want to insist that the fundamental issue confronting this nation is not who is majority and who is minority. It is about idea – whose idea is more practical, enduring, vibrant and sustaining. We must confront and challenge whose idea should ultimately prevail. Majority does not mean right. They are bringing down the whole country as I see it.
#6 by gundam on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 2:31 pm
hound,
even a good tree can sometimes produce bad fruits.
view it positively, tis incident could be used as a measure to eliminate the ‘baddies’ among us.
#7 by mauriyaII on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 2:34 pm
“DISGUSTED” just does not express emphatically how I feel about the dastardly behaviour of the mob that threatened to storm the Bar Council forum.
The very fact Najib claims to have prior knowledge of ‘the extreme reaction to occur’ only proves his complicity in the behaviour of the mob.
The action and the non-action of the PDRM makes it apparent as to their modus operandi. They willfully condoned the behaviour of the mob. If the PDRM is impartial to all illegal gatherings and rallies, they should have arrested the leaders of the mob. The Home Minister should have invoked the ISA and thrown them into the Kamunting camp for being a national security risk.
Instead the PDRM CONDONED THE ACTION OF THE MOB AND EVEN ESCORTED THEM TO DELIVER A MEMORANDUM to the organizers of the forum.
On his part, the Home Minister has the cheek to say he is looking into the possibility of using the ISA on the organizers who HAD POLICE PERMIT to hold the forum in their premises. Why is having such idiotic thoughts when the culprits who should be put away are the Mob and their leaders.
Malaysia is fast sinking into a banana republic (democratic monarchy?) with two sets of laws for its citizens – one favouring the likes of those in the MOB and the other, more diabolical, apartheid type reserved for lawabiding ordinary citizens.
Malaysia is not an island anymore in this globalized world. The whole world is watching the charade put up by the ill-advised comedians in the government.
Before we admonish other countries not to meddle in our affairs, LET US PUT OUR HOUSE IN ORDER. Nobody in his right mind will criticize us if we are above reproach.
#8 by pwcheng on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 2:53 pm
UMNO political survival is based mainly on race and religion and there is no other better opportunity for them to play up this issue and along the way a few from PAS and PKR fall into their trap.
Najib is obviously happy on the storming of the Bar Council auditorium which obviously is all the making of UMNO. By issuing threats to the forum organisers is no better way than condoning to the acts of the ruffians gate crashing. And you can be sure there will be no action against these demonstrators.
We all agree with UMNO that religion is a very sensitive issue and that is why we must sit down and tackle it in the best possible and most rational manners. They refused to sit down and talk and neither do they allow other to sit down to talk. The greatest enemy of all problems is “misunderstanding” and UMNO is all out to create this so that they can survive on the racial and religious cards. They (UMNO) are simply devoid of any intelligence for good governance and they will let the country go to the dogs for their survival.
UMNO is only capable of sowing the seeds of hatreds among the various races and UMNO is a fertile breeding ground for corruption and abuse of power which is totally condemned by all religion except UMNO’s brand of Islam, a stark contrast to real teaching of Islam and they have the cheek to preach about the religion..
Needless to say I think the majority of the non-Malays (probably more than 80%) are all very stressed up with UMNO, and UMNO must also realize that this group must be given some leeway to release their tension and stress but unfortunately UMNO is bent on playing a zero sum game, and unfortunately MCA,Gerakan, MIC and other non Malay component parties fall into their trap because of some fall out from their gravy train. This is obvious as all those leaving the BN, including some very powerful ex UMNO members are those whose hands are not able to reach the gravy trains of UMNO now. Just look at SAPP, who are the members who are for and who are against the resolution of no confidence of the PM? It is simply plain obvious!!
#9 by limkamput on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 2:57 pm
what can we expect from a apologist – looking for a silver lining when it was actually lack of principle.
#10 by Tulip Crescent on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 3:02 pm
mauriyaII
When you say “democratic monarchy,” do you mean mobocracy?
Count your lucky stars. We have
(1) a partial (instead of a neutral) civil service;
(2) a biased (instead of a professional) police force;
(3) a beholden (instead of an independent) judiciary; and,
(4) a half-past-six (instead of a competent) leadership.
Welcome to the Land if Nightmares.
#11 by taiking on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 3:03 pm
Has Zulkifli Nordin been manupilated by UMNO?
Is this an election maneuver by UMNO?
If so then expect some really dirty tricks by UMNO in PP.
#12 by boh-liao on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 3:04 pm
We want to be a so-called developed country by 2020 (only less than 12 years away). Why can’t we agree to disagree and discuss issues civilly and objectively, without using threat, violence, and force?
Don’t sweep issues under the carpet. As a multiracial, multicultural, and multireligious country, it is imperative that we have civil dialogue to thrash out the basic tenets that affect our daily lives. We have to accept diversity and that no one group is attempting to overpower other groups through unacceptable doctrines and brainwashing.
Zulkifli Noordin is the worst kind of political animal with no principle. Even if he wishes to protect his religion and wants to ban others from discussing the issue, he should do it in an appropriate way, rather than running amok like a senseless, screaming, threatening, and high-handed idiot, leading a frothing mob. Except for an unsheathed keris in his hand, is Zulkifli Noordin any different from the current Umno Youth chief? Don’t be surprised if Zulkifli Noordin leaves PKR and joins Umno, birds of the same feather.
#13 by pongsakling on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 3:12 pm
We were born in Malaysia and been call pendatang, and now they call us pig, and asked us to balik China…ummmm
1. Pendatang, don’t they know that we were born here, so maybe they are pendatang so they don’t know.
2. Why call us babi? We eat pork, only babi don’t eat pork, so I wonder who is babi!
3. Balik China? Don’t they know that not all chinese were born in China? Chinese can be found at every part of the world. Can someone please tell the pig head about these.
#14 by wizzerd on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 3:19 pm
Well, Zul could be just another mole planted by UMNO in PR.
Viewed in a positive mannr, not all PR leaders are like that. Do not let this bad apple jeopardize our aspirations for a just, civil and transparent Malaysia.
#15 by m.hwang on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 3:22 pm
I agree with wizzerd. His body is in PKR but his soul is still with UMNO.
#16 by Godfather on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 3:26 pm
The word “amok” is both English and Malay. This UMNO can claim some credit.
#17 by lew1328 on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 3:27 pm
Greetings! All
Whether you agreed or not, the fact is the quota system in Malaysia did produced the incompetents of the following: – (By Tulip Crescent)
(1) A partial (instead of a neutral) civil service;
(2) A biased (instead of a professional) police force;
(3) A beholden (instead of an independent) judiciary; and,
(4) A half-past-six (instead of a competent) leadership
Thus, we must have re-engineering the whole education system in order to prevent from the above, those will only happen when government change I guessed.
We do not wish to see anymore culture shock and segregation between Malaysian counts in another 50 years.
#18 by gundam on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 3:30 pm
hound,
a formulaic principle or human principle both derived from sets of encounters and experiments.
it’s a lifelong learning process for everyone.
PR is adapting, so am i, we learn from mistakes so we can improve further.
now i truly hope tat u aren’t still living in ur utopia and self-glorious past thus stop learning particularly lesson on humility.
#19 by Adolf_Napoleon on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 3:33 pm
Dear YB,
**************************************************
Can anyone in Malaysia push for a total freedom of Religion? RELIGION is a personal preference and this is the most basic human rights enshrined to us when we were borned into this world. You cannot FORCE someone to believe in something when they have no fate.
**************************************************
The Malays in Malaysia consider Indonesia as their Motherland. Then they should at least follow Indonesia on the freedom or religion and the freedom of conversion. This is NOT a sensitive statement as we are merely comparing a Muslim country like us with a giant Muslim country like Indonesia.
**************************************************
Problem with this country there is NOT enough maturity and intellectual capacity of politicians. Their minds are too narrow and always based on sentiments and not facts.
*************************************************
#20 by PSM on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 3:33 pm
Bro Kit,
I expect such “disgusting” behaviour from UMNO & BN. HOWEVER, I do not expect it from the DAP, PAS & PKR.
Race Politics, Bigotary & plain stupidity are synonymous with UMNO & BN. Thta’s why we voted for the PR.
When the MP for Kulim together with some other PKR & PAS “Elements” stormed the Bar Council Forum, they actually gave a “SLAP” to the Rakyat (especially the Non-Muslims who were, I’m told called “babi” & told to go back to China?!) who voted for them in the last GE!
#21 by badak on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 3:38 pm
Is Islam so weak that it is even scared of its own shadow.I don,t think so. It is UMNO who is using ISLAM and KEKUATAN MELAYU as a tool to hold on to power.
If UMNO is strong as its leaders are saying, then why is the need to talk to PAS.Another 99 percent MUSLIM and MALAY base party.
#22 by Godfather on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 3:40 pm
It is close to blasphemy to say that the Malays here consider Indonesia as their motherland.
These UMNO chaps are not nationalists. They are capitalists – and they will do ANYTHING to ensure that they have their hands in the country’s coffers, including inciting religious hatred.
#23 by limkamput on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 3:42 pm
No, I don’t think you get it, apologist.
PR is not adapting or learning anything. If any, PR is falling exactly into the path of BN. If DAP remain subservient on this issue, then it is MCA in the making. If PAS remain silent on this issue, then it is nothing more than a religious-racist party.
#24 by gundam on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 3:55 pm
hmm…btw, looking at the current social and economic development in china as further demonstrated in the opening of the olympic games, it is not such a bad idea to go ‘back’ to china anyway.
#25 by Damocles on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 3:56 pm
“We need to know PAS’ stand on this. Otherwise we can all forget about PR.” – Limkamput
I think that Limkamput and others should be moderate at this juncture regarding what they post.
With the Permantang Pauh by-election looming in the near future, we should all be circumspect at this juncture.
I think that’s the reason why Uncle Lim didn’t jump into the bandwagon and let loose with a salvo in the first place.
Once this critical election is behind us then the PR can sort things out.
#26 by Cinapek on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 3:58 pm
Whatever UMNO may have plotted, it does not excuse the disgraceful, uncouth, loutish and mob driven crazed behaviour by the PKR and PAS MPs in disrupting the forum.
Many of us were sick and tired of these kinds of UMNO condoned behaviour in disrupting past forums and they were one of the reasons we voted for PR in March 08. Now we are sick to the pits of our stomachs for the betrayal by the PKR and PAS MPs who made us realised that they are even worse than UMNO because while UMNO made no pretense of being non racist, we were conned by PKR and PAS who pretended to be racially fair but in actual fact, just as bad, if not worse than UMNO.
Come the next GE, I will know what to do with my vote and it will not be for PR if they persist in their ways. I may not change the outcome but I will make damn sure that all those I can influence will not waste their votes on a bunch of useless, racist bigots who cannot even look beyond their noses.
#27 by limkamput on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 3:59 pm
now i truly hope tat u aren’t still living in ur utopia and self-glorious past thus stop learning particularly lesson on humility. apologist
What utopia and self glorious past are you talking about? I am humble enough to know that politics without principle and business without ethics are recipes for disaster, no matter how one looks at it. State upfront what we want or forever be like that ostrich and hide your head under the sand, apologist. Fifty years of compromise and subservience have not got us anywhere. Yes, it is not about being our ability to earning a living here, or ability to get rich running businesses. It is about our dignity and honour. We want to participate in the construction of a better country and society for all. Some of us want to be AG, judges, IGP, DG of immigration, and DG of ACA in addition to holding cabinet positions of substance. When MCA President requested four MPs from MCA be appointed to the four “traditional” ministerial posts, I wanted to cry. It shows total indoctrination and lack of lateral thinking skill even among the top echelon of non Malaysia political parties. If you don’t understand what I am talking about, then forget it.
#28 by limkamput on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 4:03 pm
should be non malays political parties
#29 by boh-liao on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 4:05 pm
Hats off to the brave and fair-minded ladies (Ambiga Sreenevasan, Zarizana Abdul Aziz, Mehrun Siraj) at the open forum organised by the Bar Council on 9.8.08.
The rowdy protest is an insult to the principles of Rukun Negara.
#30 by gundam on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 4:12 pm
houndy,
why r u still so hot-blooded at ur age?
do not jump the gun.
PR is still relatively new, they need some time to ‘perfect’ themselves into a new party to succeed wat their predecessor failed to accomplish for the last 50 yrs.
if you are not patient in small things, you will bring great plans to naught.
#31 by pky103 on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 4:20 pm
– PKR MP for Kulim Bandar Baharu Zulkifli Noordin reminds of malay ULTRAs, literally malay chauvinists.
– As a non-malay, it was deeply shocking and disappointing to see the entries and comments on this matter in his personal blog.
#32 by limkamput on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 4:20 pm
Damocles, what you are saying is so funny. What do you mean I should be more moderate? Are you implying that I am extreme?
You are in fact saying: Because of the impending election, let all the PR parties be the champions of their respective race and religion. Let’s concentrate to win the election first and we shall sort out our differences later. I guess you have many assumptions when you said this:
1. People are generally racists and they are happy if political parties resort to racist card;
2. People are gullible and stupid and they can be manipulated;
3. In political, principles are not important, let’s concentrate in gaining power first;
4. Obviously you have not learned from the follies of BN in March 8.
#33 by gundam on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 4:25 pm
“I am humble enough to know that politics without principle and business without ethics are recipes for disaster, no matter how one looks at it.”
hound,
yes, a principle is needed bt one mst be flexible and quick to adapt to latest changes surrounding in order to survive.
ur stubbornness and ur mindset wont bring any betterment at all.
and business ethical is no longer exist in modern and successful enterprises.
#34 by ahpiow on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 4:28 pm
Can we pendatangs be expected to be called true Malaysians? Not for the next 100 years. A pathetic state of affairs in the country. Do non-Malays think we can ever achieve equal rights as the Malaysians?
I am glad that my daughter decided to emigrate to Australia earlier this year with my full support. At least she will be treated as an equal citizen in the country.
What has Anwar and PKR and PAS have to say on the racialist outburst? Any expulsion forthcoming? Pathetic!!
#35 by gundam on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 4:33 pm
dear hound,
it’s so saddened to find tat u failed to see tat tis was a plot by UMNO to disintegrate PR.
u r alr showing signs. r u a mole?
#36 by limkamput on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 4:40 pm
since you called me old, i shall address you young man/lady,
Tell me when flexible and quick to adapt begin and end. When flexibility gives way to appeasement and quick to adapt leads to sacrifice of principles.
Modern and successful enterprises lack of ethics? You have to tell me how you define “modern” and “successful”.
By the way, politics without principle and business without ethics are two of the seven sins of M Gandhi. Obviously you have not heard of these before.
#37 by badak on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 4:40 pm
One UMNO leader said if the BAR COUNCIL is sincere in this forum.He said why the BAR did not invite the many MUSLIM NGO,s to their forum.
What is he talking about, another UMNO leader talking with his head buried in the sand.
#38 by limkamput on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 4:47 pm
UMNO of course can instigate but it is still up to PR members to participate. Don’t blame others when we can not keep our house in order.
Now I am a mole. Before this, I was comrade, I lack humility, I am old. You may choose to label me whatever you like, but please make up your mind. I come here to meaningfully participate in discussion. I am not an apple polisher or a blind supporter.
#39 by gundam on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 4:56 pm
hound, i always regard myself as young man though naturally everyone grows old, so dun be ashamed.
it’s not abt appeasement, it’s abt the sacrifice one made for the greater cause in long run.
the greatest leaders mst endure humiliation in order to perform an important duty.
dun be short-sighted and engulfed urself in unnecessary anger.
wat business needs is wisdom and adaptation, nt ethics. u r rite, i’ve nv heard of those b4.
if u r using IE as ur browser to access tis site, u mst understand how microsoft integrated it into their market-dominated windows operating system to ward off competitions hence IE has become so popular. tis is jst one of the ‘unethical’ strategy by a successful and modern corporation.
#40 by gundam on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 4:59 pm
“UMNO of course can instigate but it is still up to PR members to participate. Don’t blame others when we can not keep our house in order.”
tis is exactly my point here, hound.
#41 by Yee Siew Wah on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 5:00 pm
This guy “Zookifli” looked like an idiot of the worst kind during his protest on the Bar Council meeting. How can we hv idiot like this in PKR.
Islam is a beautiful religion. But what these stupid idiots done are a disgrace to the whole world.
How come no ISA from the AG and the police? What fairness they r promoting when HINDRAF protesters behaved 110% better that these idiots are getting under ISA.
#42 by Steven on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 5:00 pm
It’s such an embarrassment to be living in a country like Malaysia!
#43 by gundam on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 5:06 pm
hound, like i said b4, u read too much.
u learned too much other others’ principles.
u need to go out to the real world to learn and acquire ur own principles.
im glad to hear tat u r not a blind supporter so dun follow gandhi or any ‘great leaders’ blindly. u gotta make up ur mind.
#44 by gundam on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 5:07 pm
correction:
u learned too much abt others’ principles.
#45 by gundam on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 5:24 pm
it seems to me tat Zulkifli Noordin was quite a ‘brave’ person for storming into the forum. he could had been misguided by someone hence using his bravery for the wrong purpose.
well, if he was a good leader, we can leverage on his courage. after all, he was onli defending wat he believed in. we shouldnt be offended easily and create more hatred along the way with each others.
shouldnt we separate religion from politic anyway?
#46 by madmix on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 5:30 pm
When it comes to Islam, its followers tend to be fanatics. Some silly cartoons, a fictional novel..can cause riots and threats of violence. It is the same in Malaysia. It is best for us kafirs to avoid issues that are deemed “sensitive” to Muslims. You can talk, discuss, debate, but nothing will come out of it. Muslims will not shift their position no matter how illogical or unjust their stand is. Having forums like the bar council’s only serve to stir Muslims into a frenzy and if any violence occur, the police and army will not be there to defend kafirs. I implore the non Muslims in Pakatan like Karpal to just avoid such issues.
#47 by Captain on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 5:33 pm
I am anxious to know the stand of non muslim party members of Barisan. MCA, MIC and the multiracial Gerakan? Still enjoying UMNO’s fart? The leaders of these parties should stop talking about championing issues of their section of the Malaysian soceity if they continue to pretend deaf and dumb.
I am also anxious to know the stand on non muslim PKR leaders. Why are you so quiet in the wake of idiot Zulkifli’s kurang ajar attitude to fellow malaysians?
You all are all the same. People without principles.
It was good opportunity for muslims to explain. But they chose to be the stupid trouble makers. It was a open public forum, you don’t need invitation….. why were the self proclaimed Islamic experts absent from the forum to shed light on the irregularities and find solutions? Even the pakar from JAKIM was afraid if he spoke to a Buddhist or a Christian, he might be carried away and be converted himself? maybe.
As a muslim, I am ashamed of the actions of the brainless hooligans…
#48 by seana on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 5:35 pm
sigh…. this kind of douchebaggery acts is seriously getting very annoying……… aaa how long would this crap continue? =.=
#49 by sirrganass on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 5:36 pm
Hello… All of you: Listen, this is what PAS has to say about all this.
First, visit this site. Got it?
Next, yes, PAS has above 90% Malay Members and you can say this is another kind of UMNO (!). But, just a while please, if Pakatan Rakyat win and rule Malaysia, please have a more realistic forum on this issue held among PAS/PKR/DAP. PAS’s version in this is very different. But pls be reminded that RELIGION IS A SENSITIVE ISSUE (you may end up by agreeing that Malaysia IS NOT THE IDEAL PLACE TO LIVE IN !!!)
LAST THING: This link will explain a bit more: Bar Council: What is your problem actually?
Both links are written and official from PAS, (I thought you want to know what PAS has to say about this?) Of course, there are a few mamat and ali that will not listen to all this, just join the group opposing the FORUM without any official instruction from anybody…
See you later… when PR rule Malaysia!!!
#50 by dawsheng on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 5:41 pm
“Is this an admission that UMNO had plotted for the extreme reaction to the Bar Council forum on religious conversions in Kuala Lumpur on Saturday – including the deplorable and disgraceful police conduct in submitting to the ultimatum by demonstrators threatening to storm into the Bar Council auditorium to disrupt the forum if the half-day forum was not ended by 10 am?”
It is obvious! That’s why police permit given, but some people just lacks common sense.
#51 by dawsheng on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 5:44 pm
“This must be the first time in the history of the Malaysian police force where it had openly and publicly submitted to the threats of demonstrators to commit an offence, i.e. to storm into a private property to disrupt a lawful meeting!”
Nope, this is the first time police let demonstrators storm into the Bar Council. Can they help it?
#52 by dawsheng on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 5:45 pm
“Can the Inspector-General of Police, Tan Sri Musa Hassan and the Home Minister, Datuk Seri Syed Hamid Albar defend and justify the shocking failure of the police to uphold law and order on Saturday?”
Why should they?
#53 by limkamput on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 5:45 pm
If permit not given, i am sure some people will have lots to say also. Obviously some people just lack cow sense.
#54 by limkamput on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 5:47 pm
So what are you trying to say, don’t hold any forum or discussion because the police will be bias. Who does not know that.
#55 by Captain on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 5:50 pm
50% of UMNO members are either pendatang from across the straits or just first genaration. Khir Toyo is a good example.
While about 90% of Indians and Chinese are second or third generation and 100% of Kadazan and Ibans and the like are more Bumiputra than the malays.
So who is the pendatang? So stop cheating.
Bar Council should remove mirrors from their meeting hall wall. The pig must have seen himself lah. There was no other pig there.
#56 by dawsheng on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 5:50 pm
That’s right!
#57 by Toyol on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 5:52 pm
DPM very smug about the storming and the violent behavior of the mob. Looks like he approves of it. If the mob had attacked anybody and burned down the premises, he will say its the Bar Council’s fault! Thats the limit of his so called leadership. You guys seriously want this person as a leader?Oh my gosh…M’sia is doomed.
#58 by dawsheng on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 5:55 pm
“It is indeed sad and tragic that the demonstration against the Bar Council forum saw some elements of Umno, PKR and PAS united on a fictitious issue – the non-existent challenge of the position of Islam in Malaysia as provided in the constitution.”
Talking about Malay and Islam unity, there you have it, all thanks to the Bar Council.
#59 by dawsheng on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 5:56 pm
“If all parties concerned can unite on the critical issues facing the nation, like wiping out corruption, fighting injustice and eradicating poverty, then Malaysia will be heading for national and international greatness and not like today, sliding down the slippery slope of mediocrity!”
Why didn’t the Bar Council organize a forum to save Malaysia?
#60 by Captain on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 5:59 pm
You don’t need a police permit to have meeting indoors.
#61 by dawsheng on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 6:00 pm
“DAP has raised strong objections with the PKR leadership on the role of the PKR MP for Kulim Bandar Baharu Zulkifli Noordin in storming the Bar Council forum and I have been informed that disciplinary action would be taken against him.”
What for? So the Bar Council members can look up to DAP as their backup?
#62 by gundam on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 6:04 pm
dear dawsheng,
if u believe in exercising freedom of speech as a part of democracy enshrined in our constitution like wat we did in tis blog, then there’s nothing too sensitive tat we cant talk abt.
if we dun talk abt problems, then they will never be solved.
remember, we talked, we didnt shout or fight.
#63 by FY Lim on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 6:11 pm
PKR beware of the moles planted by UMNO in PKR !
First, you have Chandra Muzaffar , then DSAI’s tennis partner , Ezam , Saiful and now clearly Zulkifli Nordin.
The modus operandi is the same : When there is a critical event about to happen like PRU 12, these moles will surface trying to claim that they know more about a certain leader and hurling fabricated lies. Some will do on the sly, actions which are detrimental to PKR and PR.
For this occasion where the Permatang Pauh by-election is on, Zulkifli Nordin is now rearing his snaky head and in so doing will cause a lot of votes lost for PKR. Remember, he had quietly and cunningly ” forget ” to submit his election accounts for the last elections.
If the court found him quilty, he will ” willingly ” forfeit his seat.
However, judging by the recent events , UMNO will want him to keep his seats maybe to do more damage in the future.
#64 by wizzerd on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 6:14 pm
The whole episode played into the hands of BN.
If Zulkifli Nordin is brought to book by PKR, he will become a martyr for championing Malay and Islamic rights for his community. This will be capitalised by certain parties and will certainly add fuel to the Malay unity talks and strengthen the ‘belief’ that they are under siege…well with the help of the MSM.
If no action is taken or he is let off with just a warning, PKR will lose its credibility in standing up against the religious bigotry and extremism. They might lose some of their new found support among fence sitters.
Either way, PR will have some setback somehow.
Really hope that DSAI can do some fire fighting/damage control here before the situation gets out of hand.
This time PR is scoring an own goal.
Either
#65 by sirrganass on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 6:22 pm
Scoring an own goal? Wow. I love that phrase!!! Seems to be true.
#66 by bentoh on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 6:32 pm
# dawsheng Says:
Today at 18: 00.34 (21 minutes ago)
“DAP has raised strong objections with the PKR leadership on the role of the PKR MP for Kulim Bandar Baharu Zulkifli Noordin in storming the Bar Council forum and I have been informed that disciplinary action would be taken against him.”
What for? So the Bar Council members can look up to DAP as their backup?
===============================================
Errr… what not for? So the DAP should stay diam diam ubi berisi, when a person titled YB actually stormed into a forum and recited hatred speeches in front of the people?
This is a national security issue (that the PDRM is not doing their job well), as well as national disgrace…
So why can’t a political party voice their unhappiness?
#67 by zak_hammaad on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 6:37 pm
Storming of Bar Council forum – Had Umno plotted for the extreme reaction? Not quite, it is likely that the opposition endorsed the forum as a means to get the consequent reaction which was predicted to take place.
#68 by drngsc on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 6:41 pm
We learn from this episode that BN feels that some protest are justifiable. Obviously, this is another example of the police losing their status as an impartial arbiter of law enforcement. Not to worry, even the protesters and the police must face judgement in the here after. There is a GOD above. We have to be patient for change, and learn our lessons.
#69 by Loyal Malaysian on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 6:45 pm
The police has shown again that it is not an impartial and just enforcer of the laws of the country.
That there are PKR leaders playing to the gallery on Islamic issues is very disappointing.
#70 by chiakchua on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 6:50 pm
This is another proof of the police force in this country not carrying out their duty fairly. They whole UMNOputras and cronies are not walking their talk. How could we trust all these people?
#71 by yhsiew on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 6:54 pm
Zulkifli Noordin should apologize to the Bar Council.
#72 by ADAM YONG IBNI ABDULLAH on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 7:02 pm
seriously, the bar counsel is not the appropriate body to be holding the forum on religious matter. the bar counsel should focus on judiciary matters and may the judges and lawyers alike stay true to the written laws of the courts. ( many strayed ). yet to have the tribunal to hear the errant lawyer out!!!!
religion is such a simple matter , that it is the followers are just too naive to understand. the different sects of muslims, christians and buddhists is a testimony of “my interpretation versus your interpretation.
even great philosophers and thinkers differs in view of God and Religion. religion is and should be a matter of oneself and his Creator. no forum is needed. be it the government or even self proclaimed holy man.
nonetheless, because the conversion has resulted in political interference, families are divided and bodies snatched. well, if i believe i have a soul in the next world, my dead body is no longer any importance to me anymore after my death. it dooms to rot at whichever ground it is buried.
but than again, no one was forced to be a muslim in malaysia. if you choose to convert because of marrriage, it only shows that you were prepared to conform to the Islamic rule. but if one embrace Islam because of one’s choice , and understanding of Islam, who is there to stop you. Not even the government. hope this is clear.
thank you.
#73 by cmbss on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 7:20 pm
STILL NO SOUND FROM ANWAR IBRAHIM!!!!
Waiting for his comment on that Zulkifli.
Please YB, the longer the delay for Anwar to response, the worst be the effect on PR and DAP!
#74 by dawsheng on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 7:52 pm
Dear Gundam, I believe in exercising freedom of speech but I also believe in exercising the brain more when one is exercising the freedom of speech.
#75 by gundam on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 7:57 pm
dear adam,
i hope it is clear to u tat u r currently speaking on a forum too, albeit online.
it is wise and democratic to have a forum to clarify things and sort them out, hopefully.
#76 by gundam on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 8:01 pm
dear dawsheng,
u r right.
so we need to have an appropriate platform to exercise our brains by sharing, listening, debating views from all walks of life concerned.
where could be the better venue for tat purpose?
#77 by dawsheng on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 8:07 pm
At the coffee shop.
#78 by gundam on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 8:12 pm
oh, tat’s a brilliant idea.
i hope bar council is reading ur suggestion.
#79 by lupus on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 8:15 pm
Where was the FRU and the water cannons ???
#80 by Tulip Crescent on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 8:40 pm
Zulkifli Noordin, a CLP lawyer (probably University of London off-campus law student) ought to know the law of trespass.
The Bar Council was hosting a meeting at its own premises.
And he tells his followers to storm the building if he does not come out by 10 am. What kind of a lawyer is he? Half-past-six?
If they actually stormed into the building, it would have been trespass ab initio.
But that is pure law. Pure law, as in p-u-r-e or in Bahasa tulin,
t-u-l-i-n.
Political considerations have not been taken. Maybe, because of our biased law enforcement officers, the Bar Council president and some of her councillors would be detained under the ISA.
You never know, In Malaysia, “Malaysia boleh. Semuanya okay,” so said our former prime minister who is now thinking of migrating if Anwar wrests power from the National Front.
So for those of you who are advising your children to migrate, it is not such a bad thing. We follow leadership by example, even if it is leadership by bad example!
It’s July 14 on any day in Malaysia. Let us storm the Bastille in Paris!
If they create traffic jams, just stop the car engine and walk out. Make the road a grand car park. It is free … but it is mass action.
Gundam
Politics and religion were separated in the Treaty between the Pope and the Princes of Europe. It was called the Concordat. This was in the early 1100s.
Pastors and priests were not allowed to stand for elections. The Church looked after the spiritual needs of the people while the State looked after the people’s worldly or mundane needs.
Note that this was in the 1100s. The problem seems to be that the Concordat only involves Christianity.
Islam, meaning total submission, is al deen or a way of life. It does not separate the mosque from the nation-state. Islam includes everything. Therefore, the Concordat is inapplicable to Islam despite Islam having already reached its 15th century or 1,500 years of existence.
So in Islam, there is no such thing as the separation of the political and religious sphere. The total religious sphere subsumes the religious. So, your question is a non-starter.
#81 by undergrad2 on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 8:42 pm
“The Pakatan Rakyat leadership will have to address the Pakatan Rakyat disarray over this issue” Kit
So James Manson was right after all! It is helter skelter – still.
#82 by undergrad2 on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 8:43 pm
ooops sorry should read “charles’
#83 by ADAM YONG IBNI ABDULLAH on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 8:43 pm
dear gundam,
read my last paragraph please.
i am a muslim. not by marriage.
i respect other religion .
btw, i will like to join you and dawsheng to discuss on other issues,like how umno is sued for millions for not paying the 2004 banners and election materials. and why samy vellu is let off the hook on the mrr scam of 70million. and why up to date mr.lingham and company is not investigated. and why the petrol price is not down yet, while singapore has priced downward.
coffee shop is too noisy. lets go to deputy prime minister house. najib did say, anyone can pop in ! saiful did that. why cant you and me?
#84 by ADAM YONG IBNI ABDULLAH on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 8:46 pm
dear gundam,
i will certainly like to join you and dawsheng to discuss why the price of petrol is still @ rm2.70 while singapore has reduced theirs.
#85 by Tulip Crescent on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 8:46 pm
ADAM YONG IBNI ABDULLAH
You think religion is just “your interpretation versus my interpretation.” The idea is risible.
[deleted]
#86 by ADAM YONG IBNI ABDULLAH on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 8:48 pm
dear gundam,
please read my last para.
respectfully yours.
#87 by undergrad2 on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 8:49 pm
“If they actually stormed into the building, it would have been trespass ab initio.” Tulip
I have heard of criminal trespass and civil trespass – but not trespass ab initio.
And what is CLP lawyer?? Cari lubang loyar ka??
#88 by ADAM YONG IBNI ABDULLAH on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 8:54 pm
what do you expect anwar to do?
catch 22.
failing to plan is planning to fail.
the prime minister will probably announce price reduction of petrol two days before the pp by election.
#89 by gundam on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 8:58 pm
dear tulip,
thx for ur enlightenment.
bt isnt tat the original problem we should be dealing wif thru tis kind of forum?
#90 by gundam on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 9:04 pm
“the prime minister will probably announce price reduction of petrol two days before the pp by election.”
dear adam,
tat onli goes to show another inconsistency of the gov policy hence another reason for voters to reject them.
#91 by limkamput on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 9:08 pm
An apologist will be an apologist – think, act, argue, debate and behave “apologistly”. What else can I say, spineless apologist.
Let me tell you fellows: don’t be consumed by your hatred for UMNO-BN. You must begin to assess whether PR are able to talk and act with principle. Otherwise it is futile exercise for all of us. Five months have passed, have you seen any change or improvement in local authority administration? I still see the same filthy garbage, haphazard parking, clogged drains and dirty shops and parks everywhere. How long more should we wait to see some changes? Because Anwar had a debate with info minister, now Guan Eng also wants to debate with Koh. Tell me what tangible benefits can we get out of this other than wasting time and talking cock?
#92 by Tulip Crescent on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 9:19 pm
Dear Kit
Sorry for the very long posting on Ahmed Deedat, who had been invited to Kuala Lumpur to speak on several occasions before his untimely demise.
I was actually catching up on my reading and thought I should share it with all the contributors in your blog. I am sure there is nothing seditious about it, unless people want to split hairs, as in the Ooi Kee Saik case.
Hope you have moderated it.
Gundam
You are welcome. If you have read the long piece, Deedat’s problem seems to be his pride. But, placed in a historical context, that pride was false because it was born out of years of being colonised. So, as you can see, colonisation does affect us and the way we think.
Of course, some of us had been the unintended consequences of colonisation. For instance, the Chinese, Indians, Sumatrans and Sulawasi people. Why do I say that. Basically, our forefathers followed the British flag. Even the chettiars followed the British flag into Thailand!
Limkamput
I agree with you. Why must Guan Eng have a debate with a leader who has lost all credibility. Even his so-called protege, his fellow Hokkien compatriots from the same village, has distanced himself from that imposter.
#93 by Tulip Crescent on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 9:21 pm
CORRECTION
Of course, some of us had been the unintended BENEFICIARIES of colonisation.
#94 by gundam on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 9:28 pm
hound,
seems like u havent really learned ur lesson on humility and longanimity.
did i not advise u not to look at things superficially?
u still dun get any points, do u?
dun let me whack u for no gd reasons.
#95 by limkamput on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 9:31 pm
who are you to whack me, you spineless apologist. And stop writting rotten English here.
#96 by gundam on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 9:38 pm
hound,
it seems u really dun have a clue.
im kinda disappointed with u.
#97 by Johnny Cheah on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 9:46 pm
Uncle Lim, you think the police is bothered about law and order. Come again! Today the police force must be over 95 thousand personnel. You complain, they will still say, WE ARE SHORT OF MAN POWER. If they are really serious about maintaining law and order, then hand bag snatchings, robberies, house break-ins, car-jacking and many more other crimes will be very much reduced. If you have noticed, they are more efficient providing escort services to the VIP or VVIP. During this escort service, you will see a few policemen riding big bikes in front followed by at least 2 police cars maybe some unmarked police cars then the car of the VIP or VVIP. Cruising along beside the VIP or VVIP car will be a big motorbike with 2 guys wearing black/dark looks like leather clothing. Then more police cars behind the VIP or VVIP car and bringing up the rear will be more police on motorbikes. During this time, the police will be honking at the public to get out of their way. If you are slow to react, then god bless you. Uncle LIM, this is the type of law and order practise by the Malaysian Police. Please correct me if I am wrong
#98 by yhsiew on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 9:57 pm
PR cannot keep silent anymore since MCA claim they fully support the Bar Council to continue with this kind of forum (Malaysiakini, Chinese Edition). Disciplinary action against Zulkifli Nordin is an option.
#99 by Godfather on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 10:00 pm
Limkamput:
You gotta learn to be more patient. We have had 30 years of continuous pillaging and looting under Mamakthir and Badawi, and now you start complaining after 5 months of Opposition administration in certain states ?
Ask yourself whether you want to live for the next 20 – 30 years under the BN thieves. If that’s your preference, then you have come to the wrong blog.
#100 by Godfather on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 10:11 pm
Personally, I support those who are transparent, who do not steal, and who have integrity. I know these traits are not found in BN, so I can only support a change. I’m more inclined to forgive inexperience or political gaffes so long as the level of integrity is there. Experience you can learn; stealing is much harder habit to break.
#101 by limkamput on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 10:13 pm
Godfather, you know my stand all along from pre-election days. I would appreciate if you can tell me how long we should wait to see some tangible results. You tell me, i will try to comply. MY view is don’t pamper them, it is time they work harder – the MPs, ADUNs and the councilors.
#102 by Godfather on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 10:21 pm
Of course we should not pamper them. If they do something wrong, we should highlight that too. What I have seen so far is inexperience, and the tendency to want to be whiter than white. How long we should wait ? Till the next elections. Then PR will have to tell us why we should let them keep their jobs.
#103 by Godfather on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 10:23 pm
I am in favour of Zul Nordin being expelled from PKR – if Anwar has the b@lls to do so. Hopefully, his expulsion could also mean a by-election where the people can decide to keep him or elect someone else.
#104 by dawsheng on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 10:24 pm
“oh, tat’s a brilliant idea.” Gundam
Thanks, anywhere but the Bar Council is a brilliant idea.
#105 by yhsiew on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 10:25 pm
August 11, 2008 21:25 PM
PM Leaves It To Home Ministry To Decide Action On Bar Council
PUTRAJAYA, Aug 11 (BERNAMA) — Prime Minister Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi said Monday that he would leave it to the Home Ministry to decide whether to take action against the Bar Council including using the Internal Security Act and Sedition Act for organising the “Conversion to Islam” forum in the federal capital on Saturday which caused a tense situation to arise.
“I leave it to the Home Ministry to study what happened, and if there is concrete evidence, the ministry will decide on what action to take,” he said when asked about calls by various quarters for the government to invoke the acts against the Bar Council.
Speaking to reporters after chairing the inaugural meeting of the National Economic Council at the Putrajaya International Convention Centre here, Abdullah said he hoped such forums would not be organised in future.
“Issues concerning religion are very sensitive. Matters (on religion) are already spelt out… there is no need for discussions,” he said, adding that between having and not having them, it was better to opt for the latter…………………..
#106 by limkamput on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 10:37 pm
Well they promised lots of things during the campaign. By next election I think it is too late. I know some of the stuff is out of their reach at the moment. But I am referring to those that are obviously within their jurisdiction to do something. Many are complaining that some local authorities are getting dirtier. How can this be? Don’t blame the civil servants again. Where is their leadership role? I think they are just trying to be populists and engaging in endless rhetoric. For example why must Guan Eng engage in useless debate with Koh. What purpose does it serve? If he finds something wrong just take action and get over with it. What about local authority election? Have they taken steps to explore the possibility of this happening? Sometimes the more i see, the more they stay the same.
#107 by limkamput on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 10:44 pm
I am in favour of Zul Nordin being expelled from PKR – if Anwar has the b@lls to do so. Hopefully, his expulsion could also mean a by-election where the people can decide to keep him or elect someone else. godfather
I hope you are not joking. This is what i have been thinking. Once and for all Anwar and the rest of PR leadership must send the clear message to end racism in this country. It is ok, let all the racists and extremists in PAS, UMNO and PKR team up on one side and the rest on the other side and see who will win the right to govern this country. It is enough, it is time.
#108 by Godfather on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 10:50 pm
We dared not believe prior to March 8 that any state could fall into Opposition hands (maybe with the exception of Penang). All we wanted was to deny the den of thieves the two-thirds majority, and we would have been happy to achieve that. We have overachieved, but this has resulted in new complications, some of which will go away if PR controls the federal government.
Take it easy – Rome wasn’t built in a day. Go to Mamakthir’s blog and take out your frustrations on the hypocrite. I do from time to time.
#109 by Godfather on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 10:52 pm
I am not joking about Zulkifli Nordin being expelled from PKR. Racism and bigotry has no place in PR.
#110 by gundam on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 10:57 pm
hound,
let me reiterate, u mst be patient. do not expect change overnite.
the priority now is to win over the government from BN so let’s be united under PR and let them prove their worthiness over a term.
as for ur doubt over the open debate, i personally know someone who decided to support anwar after watching his debate with shabery over tv. u r not to underestimate certain effects u dun see and understand.
“It is ok, let all the racists and extremists in PAS, UMNO and PKR team up on one side and the rest on the other side and see who will win the right to govern this country.”
well, isnt tis the silver lining we r talking abt?
so, r u gonna slap urself or u prefer me doing it for u?
#111 by tenaciousB on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 10:58 pm
Yeah double standards!! When Hindraf went on a peaceful non violent, non profanity based strike, they were fired at with water cannons and tear gasses but when these fellows went on strike?none of the above! the police were shaking their hands instead as seen on malaysia kini. What is this crap????
#112 by limkamput on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 11:07 pm
Apologist, is Guan Eng lacks of support at the moment? What else does he need to prove himself against Koh? He already got all the support he needs in Penang, so just get down to work.
#113 by limkamput on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 11:10 pm
Apologist, you talked about silver lining conceptually. I talked about how to get there. So don’t me kick you.
#114 by gundam on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 11:18 pm
hound,
u r short-sighted. did u put on ur spec when u read?
dun be narrow-minded too, dun limit a rising star at pg only, he could be our next deputy PM-in-waiting.
well, if my ‘concept’ doesnt get into ur mind, maybe u have to pardon me for my english expression is nt so gd. jst to refresh ur memory on wat i said earlier in tis thread.
“even a good tree can sometimes produce bad fruits.
view it positively, tis incident could be used as a measure to eliminate the ‘baddies’ among us.”
#115 by Godfather on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 11:29 pm
Even Mike Tyson with his lousy command of English will be laughing at the way you guys kick each other.
#116 by AA234567 on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 11:29 pm
I respect Karpal this time for being a good listener!!
#117 by just a moment on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 11:32 pm
PM: Don’t hold forums relating to race and religion
Najib: Bar Council’s persistence caused extreme reaction
Home Ministry: PM has passed on the reponsibilty to us and we will see who qualify for ISA, perhaps we’ll begin – people who initaite this forum thing.
The signs and signals are clear. You cannot do it when they are in power and control of the country?
Surely forum of this nature is something they are not “Willing and Not Capable of handling otherwise it would not have surface in the first place.
Sure we need to address these issues, unfortunately it will stall the entire formation of new Gov’t. be patient pls. What is few more months when this issues has been around since Merdeka?
One thing is for sure, as long as these cronies are still here. It’ll cost more to PR.
#118 by lkt-56 on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 11:34 pm
Kit,
It does not matter whether it is UMNO or some other party that planned this ‘extreme’ reaction. What matters is the ease at which our emotions can be manipulated by unscrupulous politicians. We should also ask why the government chose not to correct the problem (conflict between civil and syaria laws) when they have the power to do so.
The timing of the bar council’s decision to hold the forum plays right into the hands of people who wishes to see communalism rear its ugly head.
We currently are witnessing a no holds barred battle for power be it between the incumbent administration and the pakatan rakyat or within the ruling party itself or within each component party in the barisan nasional. Act with wisdom and we will see Malaysia come out of this a stronger nation. A foolish act could see the country fall into turmoil and dash our aspirations for a new Malaysia.
If we truly care for the country let us act with moderation. Concentrate on what matters…
– Rule the Pakatan States well and be rewarded with many more votes of coming your way.
– Work towards victory in Permatang Pauh and hope that Anwar will lead us towards liberation from racial politics.
– Be prepared for an alternative leader should Anwar be convicted.
No matter what we should be steadfast in our march towards this elusive new Malaysia.
#119 by gundam on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 11:39 pm
dear godfather,
i dun mean to hurt him bt i jst wan him to be someone more mature mentally proportionate to his age.
i believe he could be of better use as our comrade.
#120 by limkamput on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 11:45 pm
ok, i have enough. i think we better stop because you ain’t intellectual and stimulating enough for me. You are right, I have no patient for half past six people (not half pass six, ok. Wonder where you learned your English).
#121 by gundam on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 11:55 pm
hound,
dun try to get away when being challenged.
i still sense some gd conscience in u and i hope to bring out the best in u so u can be of a gd use to us.
btw, i nv said im an intellect. im merely exercising my right of free speech here as a citizen.
#122 by AA234567 on Tuesday, 12 August 2008 - 12:06 am
lkt-56 Says:
Today at 23: 34.53
“The timing of the bar council’s decision to hold the forum plays right into the hands of people who wishes to see communalism rear its ugly head.”
————————————
Timing 100% agreed —
reasons:
1) Bar Council’s member used by UMNO staging a ‘sandiwara’ to split PR.
2) UMNO’s saboteur has infiltrated Bar Council !!
#123 by imranj78 on Tuesday, 12 August 2008 - 12:19 am
Mr Lim and to forum posters,
Of course it is easy to just blame UMNO for all that goes wrong with regards to the forum. Who else can be such an easy target? But sometimes we must look at ourselves before pointing our finger at others.
Or maybe, just maybe, the true colours of PR’s `marriage of convenience’ is showing? I have always believed that DAP and PAS can never be true congruent and synergistic partners in PR. Their aims are vastly at odds and hence no one should be surprised that PAS and PKR MPs and members were present in the demonstration.
As a matter of fact, I am surprised many more from PKR and PAS were not present. My opinion – many more in PKR and PAS share the same sentiment, but are keeping silent at this time due to the upcoming Permatang Pauh bi-election and Anwar’s unethical plan to grab power by the back door. They are politicians after all and have to give the right sort of perception at such a critical time. Once and if they have power in their hands, we will then see their true colours.
#124 by jus legitimum on Tuesday, 12 August 2008 - 12:19 am
Umno was very arrogant when they considered the problems raised by the Bar council about muslim converts as sensitive.We are doomed under the rule of these idiots and religious bigots.They behaved as if Islam belonged to them and non muslims cannot discuss the problems faced by the converts and their families.They are really worse than the ostrich which hides its head in the Arabic desert sand.Shame on these bums and idiots.They are racists and they are trying to use the religion to gain control of their own race for their political interest.What hope do we have to achieve a multiracial,multireligious and multicultural secular state as long as the fanatics and idiots are in power?
#125 by melurian on Tuesday, 12 August 2008 - 12:21 am
serious, aab and the botak should heret the bar council members behind the forum to isa for good for creating tensions (already predicted and gave warning, but those councils din give a damn). send them to “re-education” camp to re-educate so that they don try to “stir hornet nest” in future.
better still, aab should take action to ban the council, just like british ban pkm long long ago….
#126 by sirrganass on Tuesday, 12 August 2008 - 12:33 am
(1) Hello… All of you: Listen, this is what PKR has to say about all this.
Click this link: http://www.suarakeadilan.com/sk/berita-semasa/2008/08/1226
…….
(2) Hello… All of you: Listen, this is what PAS has to say about all this.
First, visit this site. Got it?
Next, yes, PAS has above 90% Malay Members and you can say this is another kind of UMNO (!). But, just a while please, if Pakatan Rakyat win and rule Malaysia, please have a more realistic forum on this issue held among PAS/PKR/DAP. PAS’s version in this is very different. But pls be reminded that RELIGION IS A SENSITIVE ISSUE (you may end up by agreeing that Malaysia IS NOT THE IDEAL PLACE TO LIVE IN !!!)
LAST THING: This link will explain a bit more: visit this site.Bar Council: What is your problem actually?
Both links are written and official from PAS, (I thought you want to know what PAS has to say about this?) Of course, there are a few mamat and ali that will not listen to all this, just join the group opposing the FORUM without any official instruction from anybody…
See you later… when PR rule Malaysia!!!
……
(3) Hello… All of you: Listen to this: PAS and PKR has never condemned DAP to this extend. PAS has never attacked DAP from behind (tak main belakang punya!) Just read http://harakahdaily.net (PAS Official Publication) and find out is there anything about “hating non-muslim”, depriving non-muslim off anything etc etc…
But you people are attacking PKR and PAS terang-terang – like nobody’s business…. apa ni? Kata nak berkawan-kawan?
Siapa lebih baik, PAS atau DAP??? Jawab ya! Sekarang siapa baik? Ayo yo. Tipu2 takmaulah! If PAS doen’t attack DAP, i think DAP must not attack PAS too…. ok tak? cantik tak?
#127 by m.hwang on Tuesday, 12 August 2008 - 1:09 am
sirrganass, attacking PAS is a non issue. There are a lot of non Muslims who respect PAS leaders like Nik Aziz. However most Malaysians including Muslims will condemn the violent behaviour and threats by the politicians we saw at the BC. This is not an issue of PKR, PAS or DAP. If a DAP MP is there threatening bodily harm to the peaceful forum he too will get a lot of flak here.
#128 by One4All4One on Tuesday, 12 August 2008 - 7:55 am
When will politics in Malaysia mature to the level of sensibility, integrity, accountability, meritocracy, and being truly democratic?
All the claims that ours is a democracy based on principles ( what principles? ) is only an eyewash. Nothing comes close to being principled. A truly principled person would call a spade a spade. Nothing more, nothing less.
And to allude oneself to being religious and truly practise the teachings of God is even far more removed. It is hypocrisy of the highest order. When did God give the licence and monopoly to practise a particular religion to just any one race? It has gone too far for far too long. Islam or for that matter any other true Revelations do not belong to any particular ethnic group per se.
International scholars and honourable religious practitioners worldwide should be invited to asses the situation in Malaysia and to correct the perceptions that no one can discuss religions and religious issues openly. What is there to fear? Religion should be practised as openly as possible, for it is of God’s teachings and principles which are universal in nature.
The way criticisms are hurled at people who are seeking truth and clarification is just not right. To those who claim to defend religion, they should look at themselves and ask whether they are truly well versed in their religious practices. Whether they are as “perfect” as they make themselves out to be? Their actions are actually shameful acts of perversion.
A truly religious person would invite others to learn about his religion and going all out to teach and share the WISDOM and BEAUTY therein. He would not be easily provoked, let alone condemning others for their supposedly ignorance. And he would take every opportunity to explain the precepts and laws of the religion to others.
Leaders who profess the teachings of religions should come out strongly to protect and defend the non-believers as they are ignorant and innocent. Enlighten others. Do not just stand at the sidelines and do nothing to defuse the situation, which you said is
“tensioned” and “dangerous”. Even if you don’t do that, don’t try to fan the flame of “hatred” among the people.
If leaders do not do anything constructive, with some even attempting to play racial cards, and politicking for their own selfish
interest, the wider good and interest of the nation and its people would be hijacked. Can’t such narrow tendencies be cast away?
All righteous people, do stand up to correct the situation. Most of the Malaysian people are fine souls. Only a segment of them are bigoted and hypocritical. And another segment is being exploited by interest groups, dirty politicians, and thieves and robbers included, are out there to create chaos.
What would be left for the future generation after all the plundering? If nothing right is done at the soonest, I truly fear for for the nation’s well-being.
#129 by One4All4One on Tuesday, 12 August 2008 - 8:05 am
# melurian Says:
Today at 00: 21.15 (7 hours ago)
serious, aab and the botak should heret the bar council members behind the forum to isa for good for creating tensions (already predicted and gave warning, but those councils din give a damn). send them to “re-education” camp to re-educate so that they don try to “stir hornet nest” in future.
better still, aab should take action to ban the council, just like british ban pkm long long ago….
melurian,
Please don’t fan racial hatred here. I find your views peculiar and showing disrespect to Malaysians at large. Here you have a law body, the Bar Council, which is trying to mediate in an issue which would is seeking an amicable solution to all parties concerned.
What can be wrong to seek clarification? What about those who demonstrated and protested in such an unruly and unreasonable manner? Think they are doing any good to society and the cause of seeking out truth?
Think again melurian and other like minded people.
Thank you.
#130 by Godfather on Tuesday, 12 August 2008 - 8:14 am
imranj78 said:
“My opinion – many more in PKR and PAS share the same sentiment, but are keeping silent at this time due to the upcoming Permatang Pauh bi-election and Anwar’s unethical plan to grab power by the back door. They are politicians after all and have to give the right sort of perception at such a critical time. Once and if they have power in their hands, we will then see their true colours.”
Most of us want to give the benefit of the doubt to PR, reason being that the rakyat has been sodomised by UMNO for the past 30 years, and we have had enough. If you are right about the “true colours” of PR, then we can always vote them out at the next GE.
You say it is easy to put the blame on UMNO ? You don’t realise how thick-skinned UMNO is. The word “shame” is not in UMNO’s vocabulary. They go on plundering and looting in the name of religion and race.
#131 by Godfather on Tuesday, 12 August 2008 - 8:16 am
Ignore melurian. He’s UMNO’s official statistician.
#132 by Bigjoe on Tuesday, 12 August 2008 - 8:31 am
UMNO’s tacit agreement essentially date back to May 13, 1969 when they were the one who ignited the violence. The origin of the groups began then including the likes of GPMS. Their tacit agreement is part of their parcel of the refusal to rid the NEP and Ketuanan Melayu.
This is essentially the same kind of philosophy that condones terrorism. Means justify the end. Its not going to be fair so I can be more unfair than you. If i can’t have it, then you can’t have it either. Jealousy, hate, its what its all about. Dark Emotions over reason and intelligence. The whole philosophy is inconsistent.
What is most scary is not the face of those who storm the meeting but the face of Najib and Badawi, as the said ‘I told you so’, their apathy and resignation to the actions of groups. They face tells it all – they only know UMNOism that has been drilled into them for 40 years, they have no real solutions for the future and they don’t care because their priority is their cake now and eat it too. Najib is even smug about it as he sneer at those that are not satisfied with their abilities and try harder. Badawi, well, he is just and old dog that know no new trick. But Najib is suppose to be a young dog and he already don’t know any better and don’t seem to think he has to try.
#133 by melurian on Tuesday, 12 August 2008 - 9:50 am
“What can be wrong to seek clarification? What about those who demonstrated and protested in such an unruly and unreasonable manner? Think they are doing any good to society and the cause of seeking out truth?”
if you don start fire, there won’t be arson.
if they din start the “sensitive” forum, there won’t be protest.
#134 by imranj78 on Tuesday, 12 August 2008 - 11:03 am
Godfather,
Don’t get me wrong; I am a firm believer in the two party system and I believe it will do wonders for Malaysia in the long run. But I will NOT support a coalition who intends to grab power through unethical, illegal and undemocratic means of back door negotiations and cross overs. If PR wants the federal government, wait till the next election. If they still choose to be unethical, then in my eyes, PR is willing to sacrifice anything in the aim to get power, even its `claimed’ core values such as integrity.
Giving PR the benefit of the doubt is one thing. But when it comes to matters of country and state, giving benefit of the doubt is not good enough.
#135 by One4All4One on Tuesday, 12 August 2008 - 11:54 am
Your reply is most amusing, if not downright infantile.
Come on guy, grow up. Look at the world around you. You seem to me still living in the dark ages. No wonder there are still such reaction from the like of you. I don’t intend to insult you or anybody else here, not at all. But then the word has move so far ahead of you guys.
What is so sensitive of discussing issues openly? What is there to hide? Can’t you guys open up? What is there to protest in the first place? Join in my friend and enlighten the world, if you have answers to questions. Don’t hide behind purported veils and cloak.
Fire? What fire? No one is talking about fire? People are interested on issues and wanted to move ahead. And Arson? Wondering who is interested in one? Come on, again, tell your folks that we want you to participate in open discussions, not fight. What’s the point, anyway? If ever there is fire, it would be the burning fire to learn and make the world a better place for all.
Aren’t religions suppose to promote peace and harmony? I don’t see any antagonism on the part of participants of the open forum. Only those who are not interested on clarifying issues and hell bent on disrupting and protesting that a tense atmosphere is created.
And those people whose profess religions, they cannot be belligerent and hostile towards others, can they? What have you learnt from your religious classes? Where are all the virtues? I subscribe by the teachings of Islam. Islam is a beautiful religion. It is only the followers who do not have proper and correct understand of its teachings and who do not practise what they preach which make a bad name for the religion itself. God must be sad.
Whatever it is, I wish you all the best. Go through the mighty Koran again for guidance. Perhaps then Malaysia would be a more peaceful and progressive land again.
I rest my case.
#136 by One4All4One on Tuesday, 12 August 2008 - 11:57 am
Sorry, correction:
Come on guy, grow up. Look at the world around you. You seem to me still living in the dark ages. No wonder there are still such reactions from the like of you. I don’t intend to insult you or anybody else here, not at all. But then the world has move so far ahead of you guys.
#137 by kanthanboy on Tuesday, 12 August 2008 - 2:02 pm
1) Bar Council’s member used by UMNO in staging a ’sandiwara’ to split PR.
2) UMNO’s saboteur has infiltrated Bar Council.
_______________________________________
AA234567,
I agree with your reasoning. If UMNO’s hand is not involved in the forum, then the following matters will not happen:
1) The police has issued permit for the forum.
Has the police ever issued permit for a public meeting which is truly opposed by UMNO?
2) After the disruption, MCA voiced its support for the Bar Council.
Since when has MCA ever said anything against the will of UMNO?
#138 by eloofk on Tuesday, 12 August 2008 - 4:31 pm
I look at it as another script being written by the Mafia Chief to consolidate his grip on becoming the next PM. Being a racial sensitive issues to be discussed in the forum, why was a police permit so easily granted? Compare this with the Hindraf demonstration, why was the ISA not applied in this case? Too many muslim leaders were involved so he knew before hand that he want to be known as the champion of the Malay/Muslim cause, and which i have seen it coming, that those who called for the forum to end were just playing into his scripts.
#139 by p44voter on Tuesday, 12 August 2008 - 5:12 pm
I wonder what disciplinary action will be taken against PKR’s Kulim MP? or it just a another …….
#140 by ttc on Wednesday, 13 August 2008 - 6:23 am
Since there are so many interestingly intriguing and intricately and absurdly crafted “legislation” floating about out there in Bolehland, like that section 377B for instance, why not craft a section for the general but validly pesky crime of “stupidity”?
Given the general orientation and somewhat weird drift of the mindsets of law-makers and law-drafters that one has managed to glean from cogitation on some arsenine legislation, here’s a first attempt at a raw draft of one that perhaps some sententious entity out there can refine upon using that usual lens to focus?
Section 42000: Stupidity is a defined as a crime but it does not include general ignorance which is not a crime but only a misdemeanour. Stupidity is normally punishable by a mandatory incarceration order of up to a maximum of life imprisonment and may or may not include an order for compulsory rehabilitation and some helpful education.
Section 42000A: This section defines the crime of infantile stupidity. This is hereafter from now onwards defined as general cluelessness against the general order of rational matured human brain nature and it is punishable by incarceration for up to a maximum of five years.
Section 420001B: This section is for the crime defined as aggravated stupidity which is hereinafter and for all time from infinity to the depths of forever defined as one who chooses to be a retard out of his/her own choice when there is no absolute or relative necessity whatsoever for choosing to be a retard at all. The aggravated nature of this crime due to its impact on others makes it punishable by incarceration of up to a maximum of twenty years with re-habilatative education, and if judged to be adverse enough to constitute being a threat to national security as well, then the stupid person may be hit hard punitively with the ISA instrument as well and either contemporaneously or consecutively with any other sanction/s imposed at the judge’s discretion;
Section42000C: This ultimate section is reserved for the crime defined as degenerative stupidity. It is so serious that it is defined widely as simply being “against the order of all nature”.
If we had the above stupid law section, maybe we could try it out summarily on SHA? Or how about using it on people who go off the rails and rant and rail like that non-jurisprudentially learned fellow from PKR for instance? Or why not use it on that green man from UMNO who, as that extraordinarily wise Farish Noor noted in his humorous article, seems to have seen a flying pig or an invisible porcine entity called a “Babi” at the Bar Council’s forum!
If this legislation were to be enacted, then pigs might actually fly and brains may actually become engaged before mouths are opened……
WE SAY YEAH! :)
#141 by shamshul anuar on Wednesday, 13 August 2008 - 11:52 pm
Dear Onkyua,
Yes Sir. UMNO holds the senior partner in BN. There is nothing wrong about that. UMNO is not a hypocrite. UMNO is accorded the status as the senior partner by other coalition parties themselves. It is the natural thing to do as UMNO holds more than half of seat won by BN.
No Lim Kit Siang. UMNo does not plan the rally. It is the spontaneous responses by the Malays to BAR Council. All Malays whom I met ( irregardless of political preferences) object to the forum.
Previously BAR council played the racial card by holding a forum on the Malays and their rights . Only one Malay, Farish Noor, was invited as a panelist. Unfortunately majority of Malays does not regard Farish as capable on speaking for them as Farish is viewed as having anti Malay attitude.
As for IMranj78, well said sir. At least you are aware how uncomfortable PAs members are when PAS leadership chooses to maintain alliance with DAP after condemning UMNO for decades on its alliance with MCA, MIC . They asked why so upset when Hj Hadi and PM met. Of course, these kind of reaction was not mentioned by Star or New Strait Times.
Malays are upset as BAR Council is perceived as maintaining a very anti Islam attitude. If BAR Council wishes to highlight problems affecting marital issues due to conversion to islam, BAR COuncil must invite panelists whom are respected by Muslim communities . It means Farish Noor or Latheefa Koya are out.
#142 by shamshul anuar on Thursday, 14 August 2008 - 12:01 am
DEar PSM,
If UMNO is so racist, none of MCa or MIC politicians will ever win an election. If UMNO is so racist, vernacular school is a distant memory only.
IF UMNO is so racist, it can choose to declare Malaysia as a Malay country at independence. It is not difficult thing to do as it then held 70 % of the seat.
Racism is what you see in some countries when you are denied your right due to your racial profiling.
#143 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 14 August 2008 - 7:23 am
“They are really worse than the ostrich which hides its head in the Arabic desert sand.”
Ostrich meat anyone? Good aphrodisiac.
#144 by undergrad2 on Saturday, 16 August 2008 - 9:05 am
IF UMNO is so racist, it can choose to declare Malaysia as a Malay country at independence. It is not difficult thing to do as it then held 70 % of the seat.” Shamshul
I thought that was what ‘Persekutuan Tanah Melayu’ meant and still does – a federation of Malay states? Tell me I’m wrong!
#145 by cheng on on Saturday, 16 August 2008 - 11:04 pm
If that was the intention as stated by Shamsul, (declare Malaya as a Malay country at independence) afraid, British would not grant independence in 1957.
After 51 years, Msia still talking about races, if continue like this, no hope wws 2020, (developed status).