PAS: Caught between Old and New

By Farish A. Noor

Now that the cat is out of the bag and the whole of Malaysia knows that there have been secret backroom dealings between UMNO and PAS; ostensibly to bring the two parties together in the name of Malay-Muslim communal solidarity, we need to pause a while and look at the political factors at work.

I highlight the political factors at work here for frankly, I see little of Islam or Islamic ethics at work in this latest round of UMNO-PAS dialogue.

Some basic historical facts are in order: PAS has, in the past, already been part of the BN UMNO-led alliance in the mid-1970s. This was during the time when PAS was led by Asri Muda, perhaps the most ethno-nationalist among PAS’s leaders and a man who was seen by many as a Malay first and a Muslim second. PAS’s entry into the BN was not without opposition: Many PAS leaders and members abandoned the party and gave up on the Islamist struggle for good. When PAS was in the BN it had to toe the BN line and even contested on the BN ticket. PAS was discredited in the eyes of an entire younger generation of Malaysians and this opened the way for the rise of new Islamist groups like ABIM and Darul Arqam instead. PAS’s marriage of convenience led to it being effectively emasculated by UMNO and when it finally left the BN in late 1970s, its base-state Kelantan was in a shambles where a state of Emergency had been declared. PAS lost Kelantan and it took the party more than a decade before it won it back in 1990.

It is for this reason that PAS veterans like Tuan Guru Nik Aziz feel so strongly that this latest round of dialogues between UMNO and PAS should stop, as he senses hidden hands that are out to instrumentalise PAS yet again.

But who are the ones who are trying to bring PAS and UMNO together? It is widely reported that among the PAS leaders who are trying to engineer this deal there are the younger PAS leaders who were not even members of the party in the 1970s, and hence they do not have the same bitter memories of betrayal and defeat like Nik Aziz does.

Looking at the profile of some of these PAS leaders, we see that they tend to come from the more outwardly conservative faction who seem more interested in superficial aspects of Islam and Islamisation such as dress codes, making people go to mosques, promoting dakwah (missionary) activities and the like.

Yet PAS is divided between the old and the new and there are also new, progressive forces in the party that understand the need to bring PAS into the political mainstream and to make the party relevant to the Malaysian public as a whole, regardless of race and religion. These are the PAS leaders who were at the forefront of the BERSIH campaign for free and fair elections, the ones who have been calling for more transparency and accountability, the ones who have tried to re-construct PAS into a modern, relevant Islamist party with national aspirations.

Between these two factions, who were the ones who helped to give PAS its victory at the recent March elections?

It is obvious that PAS’s gains this time round were partly due to the efforts of the PAS progressives who had managed to re-invent the party’s image as a modern Islamic party that is more concerned with economic-structural issues like transparency, accountability, free elections, free press and democracy. These were the issues that captured the minds of the new electorate in Malaysia, and not questions like what length a Muslim’s beard ought to be. Furthermore, it was they who managed to secure the support of thousands of non-Malay and non-Muslims who voted for PAS as part of the Pakatan Rakyat on the basis of trust (amanah) and were willing to give PAS a chance to prove that it could reach beyond its Malay-Muslim electorate and speak for all Malaysians.

As a result of this current round of UMNO-PAS negotiations, PAS’s image as a new, modern Islamic party is being deminished by the day. So is the trust and confidence of the Malaysian electorate, in particular the non-Malays and non-Muslims, who in the end may conclude that PAS’s appeals to the Malaysian nation as a whole was just cosmetic and that in the final analysis, despite calling itself an Islamist party, it is simply a Malay party concerned about Malay issues and promoting Malay interests. How can PAS ever hope to recover the goodwill of the non-Malay and non-Muslim voters who voted for them, should PAS lose their trust?

It is also ironic that PAS is being courted by its arch-nemesis UMNO, when we consider the simple historical fact that it was UMNO that has been demonising PAS all along. Have we forgotten the clashes of the mid-1980s, like the Memali incident (leading to the killing of PAS leader Ibrahim Libya and his followers), Operation Kenari (that led to arrests of PAS members and the accusation of PAS harbouring militants), the KMM and al-Maunah incidents when PAS was again accused of having links with terrorist groups? So is this new Hadari version of UMNO now about to cut a deal with the very same PAS that they have been accusing of being militant and radical; and if so, what will this do to the image of the Malaysian government if and when it has this very same ‘militant’ PAS in its company?

Which brings us to the last point: For more than three decades now the Islamisation race between UMNO and PAS has witnessed UMNO’s sustained attack on PAS as a party that is cast as fundamentalist, reactionary, militant and dangerous. Now as a result of the poor showing of the BN at the March 2008 elections, UMNO is doing another volte-face and courting PAS in the name of Malay racial and communal solidarity. But throughout this period (1980-2008) it was UMNO that cast itself in the international arena as the ‘good’ Muslims and PAS as the ‘bad’ Muslims.

The current establishment has even gone as far as broadcasting to the world that UMNO’s brand of Hadari Islam is the correct, moderate and modern Islam to be emulated, juxtaposed to PAS’s Islam which is painted in Taliban-esque colours. To bring PAS that has been so vilified into the BN coalition would certainly raise eyebrows the world over and give cause for foreign governments and investors to think twice: Who was lying then, UMNO or PAS? Was UMNO wrong to cast PAS in a negative light? Or has UMNO now endorsed PAS’s version of Islam that it once decried as being fundamentalist and militant? Either way, the image of Malaysia and the Malaysian government is at stake at a time when the world is already watching Malaysia closely as a result of the repeat of the sodomy allegations against Anwar.

All of this points to the picture of a weak government that has lost its politcal bearings and compass. UMNO’s courting of PAS (and vice-versa) reminds us that racial considerations come before all else in Malaysia still, and that despite the attempts to turn PAS into a truly Islamic party that transcends race and communal politics, there remain pockets of ethno-nationalist sympathy in that party.

One can only hope for the sake of Malaysia, and Malaysia’s weak but slowly emerging democracy, that the modern progressive voices in PAS will prevail to scuttle this dubious round of backroom negotiations.

  1. #1 by zak_hammaad on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 12:30 am

    UMNO needs PAS more than PAS needs UMNO.

    I also advise Farish to keep up with the news :^)

  2. #2 by freedom to speak on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 12:36 am

    UMNO’s action is expected. They are reaching out to anyone/anything to pull them out of that sinking ship.

    PAS’s action though, is very suspect. Why are they harbouring these, unless they have some “hidden agenda”.

    PAS, after being bitten by UMNOputras for decades, they still want to “dialogue” with them. Is this a love-hate relationship? This only happens between lovers. Does UMNO and PAS have a “marriage pact” that we don’t know about.

    They already have a “pact” with Pakatan Rakyat, Now they want some extra-marital affair with UMNO.
    They have a term for it, not nice to say, but, I reserve my comment to see where this will go.

  3. #3 by dawsheng on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 12:42 am

    “UMNO needs PAS more than PAS needs UMNO.”

    Sama aje, sama sama main belakang each other! Sekarang muzakarah salah pulak, patut muqabalah konon! Tak payah cakap banyak, PAS masuk UMNO atau UMNO masuk PAS takkan jadi lain macam? Takkan UMNO tak rasuah lagi? PAS mimpi ke UMNO yang mimpi?

  4. #4 by milduser on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 12:42 am

    Latest news is that the talks are off. Not dialogues but just ordinary meetings of leaders. PAS is commited to Pakatan!

  5. #5 by dawsheng on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 12:45 am

    Muzakarah ke muqabalah ke takkan PAS boleh telan UMNO?

  6. #6 by dawsheng on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 12:48 am

    Kalau ada orang UMNO yang sudi masuk PAS, kemungkinan orang itu Pak Lah kot?

  7. #7 by calvin_ngan on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 12:51 am

    I’m not a muslim, but I think PAS or Muslim in general should ‘rebrand’ themselves, instead of saying allah knows it best or allah will guide me, they should help themselves first. I always believe that when a person finds the strength and spirit to do something, only then does god join in.

    PAS in pakatan should proves that Islam is not about backwards or hudud law.

  8. #8 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 1:33 am

    …and instead of saying “God willing”, why not say I’m willing?? “God helps he who helps himself” to include helping yourself with your employer’s money and “thou shalt love your neigbor” to include making love to your neighbor’s wife when he is out of town?? It makes more sense!

  9. #9 by Tuanku Ripleys on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 1:37 am

    Recalled my past Ustaz taught me about the “True Muslim” scholar shall never “buat khianat” on his own Muslim brothers and sisters.

    Based on my 5 years studied in Pengetahuan Agama Islam, Nabi Muhammad s.w.t quoted in the Quran said ” Such secret meetings were “Haram” or “Tak Suci” where hidden agendas are bad faith and non-halal are most sinful acts in Muslims because secret meetings are held by evil spiritual mentality leaders unless the contents of the meetings are open for fair hearing and judgement from entire rakyat communities”

    The so called “Muzakarah” or “Muqabalah” are almost the same meanings in Islamic definition as spelled out in Quran bible. So PAS cannot twisted the sentence to confuse the non-Muslims to believe that a dialogue and face to face talk are different and served differ meanings.

    Looks like PAS young leaders failed to uphold their saint honest believe and many clean promises to the Rakyat in 12th GE. PAS broke their words and betraying their trustworthy Islam religion when PAS and UMNO held few secretive talks to unite Malays as main excuses. As many Malays understand that when one party was corrupt and abused the Malays’ rights for past 50 years, a SINFUL Act created earlier is very difficult to clean in the past where bad omen has set into their greed minds.

    As a Muslim party, PAS leaders have failed to uphold their Muslim religion by betraying their Muslim partners in Pakatan Rakyat. As a result of this current round of UMNO-PAS negotiations, PAS’s image as a new, modern Islamic party is being deminished by the day. So is the trust and confidence of the Malaysian electorate, in particular the non-Malays and non-Muslims, who in the end may conclude that PAS’s appeals to the Malaysian nation as a whole was just cosmetic and that in the final analysis, despite calling itself an Islamist party, it is simply a Malay party concerned about Malay issues and promoting Malay interests.

    How can PAS ever hope to recover the goodwill of the non-Malay and non-Muslim voters who voted for them, should PAS lose their trust?

    Never mind, let PAS leaders learn to play racist card with UMNO at this time around, the fire of hell of past history in 1970 will caught up with the young PAS leaders.

    Pakatan Rakyat in DAP and PKR can survive with or without any betrayed PAS party. Simple to kick out insincere PAS leaders from Pakatan States forever.

    All Malaysians regardless of race and creed will reject PAS young turks in any elections in Malaysia.

    PAS doomdays are coming soon !


  10. #10 by passerby on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 3:15 am

    I am always against the use of “God willing” whenever making a promise or a commitment because I don’t see the seriousness whenever such words are used.

    Can you sue a person if he wrote on the IOU that “If “God willing”, I will repay the loan by certain date.” Is it his fault that he is not repaying or is it because God is not Willing in this case?

  11. #11 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 3:25 am

    RPK is about to identify a witness present in the meeting between Saiful and Najib, who was brought there for the sole purpose of corroborating Saiful’s presence!

    RPK will expose Najib this time – God willing!

  12. #12 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 3:28 am

    RPK is about to identify the witness present in the meeting with Saiful, borught only for the sole purpose of being a witness. Read what the witness has had to say about what happened and what didn’t happen.

    RPK is about to identify this material witness – God willing!

  13. #13 by ADAM YONG IBNI ABDULLAH on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 6:06 am

    Whatever credibility that PAS has or had is lost by this ” secret meeting”.

    It was not necessary to discuss ISLAM in secret meeting.

    It was not necessary to discuss MALAY unity in secret meeting.

    Regardless of the new hiphop breed of pas member or the taliban minded member, this is hypocrisy.I am so afraid that once Tok Guru Nik Aziz is no longer alive, than PAS is past.

    Hadi is no Nik Aziz, and he loves an entourage of followers , very different and with his arrogance, Hadi sees an opportunity as the next PM of Malaysia.

    The people of Trengganu would know him better to boot him out of Trengganu in 2004. It was not PAS they dont like ,but rather Hadi. Yet Tok Guru retained Kelantan in 2004 .

    PAS – you have betrayed Malaysians in having (TOP SECRET TALK).
    It was not necessary and is not necessary. Hadi – go and read the Holy KORAN, ONE MORE TIME CLOSELY , and tell me,where it is stated that secret talks ON ISLAM are written in the BOOK.

    a muslim.

  14. #14 by bumi-non-malay on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 6:52 am

    So is that the reason why PAS have not abolish the Apostasy Law in Kelantan with 2/3 majority even though the hand holding ceremony of “People Declaration” was made prior to election. Never Vote PAS and PKR better strenghten their fragile position.

    DAP needs to work harder to bring Nizar into DAP or he will be a one term MB……time to make MB, CM one term…….Shall Junior Lim move to Perak next to create the next history as MB??…..

    Make Penang the Freedom of Religon State QUICK!!……move forward and send clear message that Penang will lead in making Malaysia a better place!!

    Start Condeming the thought that Malay can be born Muslim- Ridiculous.

    Start the Agenda that Orang Asli are the TRUE Bumiputera of Malaysia…..Malaysia of sane mind will decide the truth from Lies!!

  15. #15 by cemerlang on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 6:57 am

    Wow ! Malaysia is so full of Allah.

  16. #16 by mendela on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 7:34 am

  17. #17 by Tuanku Ripleys on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 7:38 am


    Oleh : Ketua Penerangan PAS Pusat
    Tuesday, 22 July 2008

    PENDEDAHAN Pesiden Umno, Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi bahawa telah berlaku tiga pertemuan antara beliau dengan pimpinan PAS telah menambahkan lagi kekecohan politik negara. Tidak cukup dengan isu krisis dalaman Umno dan kes Altantuya, membawa pula kepada isu pembentukan kerajaan alternatif sebelum 16 September dan kes liwat Anwar Ibrahim. Kemudian, Pak Lah dan Najib Razak bersetuju supaya peralihan kuasa dibuat pada 2010. Dalam hiruk-pikuk ini, Pak Lah mengumumkan bahawa PAS sedang brmuzakarah dengan Umno dalam isu Islam dan ketuanan Melayu.

    Tidak sedikit pemerhati politik, penyokong Pakatan Rakyat (PR) dan pimpinan PR malah ahli dan pimpinan PAS turut marahkan PAS dalam soal ini. Setidak-tidaknya mereka memberi ingat supaya pimpinan PAS tidak terperangkap dengan permainan politik desprate Umno dalam mempertahankan survival mereka. Ini telah menjadi persoalan yang besar kepada rakyat. Adakah PAS benar-benar serius ingin mengalih pendekatannya dengan menyertai kem BN dan mengapa PAS harus tinggalkan PR setelah pakatan ini mendapat kepercayaan rakyat? Benarkah PAS bermaksud demikian atau ia hanya manipulasi media untuk menjayakan drama yang dipilot oleh Pak Lah.

    Mursyidul Am PAS sudah membuat penegasan bahawa ini bukan kerjasama politik. Ia hanya satu perundingan peribadi yang tidak menjejaskan hubungan PAS dalam PR. Tuan Guru mengingatkan PAS supaya berhati-hati jangan sampai terlanjur kerana tidak mahu titik hitam bersama BN berulang. Ini bukan pertama kali Umno mempermainkan PAS dalam menyelamatkan politik mereka. Ketika Umno berpecah dengan Dato’ Onn pada 1951, Tunku Abdul Rahman berusaha menarik PAS menyertai Persidangan Pertubuhan Melayu di Johor Bahru, diikuti oleh penyertaan PAS dalam National Convention pada 1953. Tujuan utama Tunku Abdul Rahman berbuat demikian kerana bimbang Umno terkubur setelah National Conference tajaan Dato’ Onn mendapat sokongan parti-parti politik ketika itu.

    Pemain utama yang menyebabkan PAS menyertai National Convention dan membuatkan Yang Dipertua Agung PAS, Tuan Haji Ahmad Fuad meninggalkan PAS ialah Tuan Haji Ahmad Badawi, bapa Presiden Umno. Selepas memecahkan PAS pada 1953, beliau meninggalkan PAS untuk terus bersama Umno. Melalui National Convention tajaan Tunku Abdul Rahman juga, Umno telah memperdayakan parti-parti Melayu seperti PAS dan PMS dengan memberikan hak mengundi kepada warga asing mengikut jus soli, selain menolak usul PAS untuk menambahkan wakil Melayu dalam Majlis Perundangan Persekutuan. Selepas tiga bulan, PAS meninggalkan National Convention yang diperalatkan oleh Umno ini.

    Selepas pelbagai fitnah dilemparkan Umno ke atas PAS seperti komunis, agen asing, pro Indonesia dan lain-lain sehingga membawa kepada penyalahgunaan ISA dalam isu takfir dan konfrantasi 1963, Umno dengan tiba-tiba merujuk kepada PAS selepas tragedi 13 Mei 1969. Sudah ramai pengkaji sejarah yang telah mengetahui siapa sebenarnya di sebalik 13 Mei ini sehingga ada tulisan berkaitannya diharamkan. Atas isu ketuanan Melayu, sekonyong-konyong Tun Razak menemui Datuk Asri untuk meminta kerjasama PAS. Selepas Kerajaan Campuran PAS-Perikatan dibentuk pada 1973 dan Barisan Nasional (BN) ditubuhkan pada 1974, Umno kembali kuat. Akhirnya PAS disingkirkan denga cara yang tragis juga.

    Pimpinan PAS sering kali ikhlas setiap kali diajak berunding oleh mana-mana pihak. Mungkin kerana itu menjadikan PAS parti yang paling banyak kerjasama politik. Tetapi kerana ’terlalu lurus’ juga, mungkin membuatkan PAS sering menjadi mangsa politik licik Umno. Selepas Peristiwa Memali yang membunuhkan 14 ahli PAS pada November 1985, Umno mengajak PAS bertemu secara sulit dalam ’pertemuan 10 mata’, tetapi belum apa-apa mereka sudah mengumumkan kepada media. Orang-orang Cina dalam CCC cukup terkilan dengan tindakan PAS ’tikam belakang’, tetapi sebenarnya PAS yang ditikam oleh Umno dari belakang. PAS tidak mengkhianati orang Cina ketika itu. Kesannya, PAS kalah teruk dalam pilihan raya 1986.

    Dr Mahathir sendiri beberapa kali cuba memancing PAS pada 1999, tetapi rundingan itu gagal apabila beberapa tuntutan PAS tidak dapat dipenuhi. Selepas 2004, ketika Umno kuat, beberapa permintaan Pemuda PAS untuk bermuzakarah dengan Pemuda Umno tidak dilayan. Tiba-tiba, apabila Umno kembali nazak, mereka ’merindui’ semula PAS. Mereka mencari PAS dan berusaha bertemu PAS secara sulit, kononnya kerana mahu membincangkan kepentingan Islam dan ketuanan Melayu. Apabila beberapa pimpinan PAS hadir untuk mendengar apa yang hendak diperkatakan oleh Umno, Pak Lah mengambil kesempatan untuk mengeruhkan hubungan PAS sesama PAS dan PAS dengan PR. Sedangkan PAS tidak pernah membuat apa-apa persetujuan atau keputusan berkaitan pertemuan ini. Ia hanya sekadar pertemuan untuk mendengar apa rintihan dari Umno. Tidak lebih dari itu.

    PAS amat sedar, jika kita ingin memperkatakan tentang ketuanan Islam, maka Umnolah yang bertanggungjawab menghancurkannya, bukan orang lain. Umno mengasaskan aqidah baru yang dinamakan ’Islam Hadhari’ sehingga Presiden PAS terpaksa menulis buku ’Hadharah Islamiyah bukan Islam Hadhari’ untuk menolak agama baru ini. Pada zaman Pak Lah inilah boleh dilihat bagaimana kejadian murtad melata dengan banyak, institusi agama diperkecilkan, para ulamak dihina, sekolah-sekolah agama terpinggir, jenayah dalam negara semakin serius serta hiburan melampau terus bebas dianjurkan. Malah Pak Lah juga tidak ada hak untuk menjadi hero dalam membela ketuanan Islam di Malaysia kerana dalam perlantikan Menteri-Menteri Kabinet selepas PRU ke 12 baru-baru ini, Pak Lah masih boleh memberi kepercayaan kepada YB Senator Zaid Ibrahim untuk menjadi menteri sedangkan siapakah yang tidak kenal dengan pengkhianat agama ini yang pernah memfailkan saman terhadap kerajaan Negeri Kelantan dan Terengganu apabila meluluskan enakmen jenayah syariah, hudud dan Qisas. Bahkan, pengikut-pengikut yang bermazhab Imam Hadhari inilah yang telah mengharamkan tazkirah di masjid dan surau, menyekat pendakwah dan bertanggungjawab dalam meruntuhkan masjid di Kg. Bujal, Terengganu dan beberapa masjid di Selangor. PAS juga tidak pernah lupa tentang isu Batu Burok yang hampir-hampir meragutkan 2 nyawa orang Melayu Islam. Maka atas asas apa untuk Umno mengajak PAS bermuzakarah tentang kepentingan agama. Seumpama pencuri mengajak polis berunding untuk mengurangkan kes pecah rumah!

    Dalam soal ketuanan Melayu juga, Umnolah juara dalam menghapuskannya. Bukankah dahulu pimpinan Umno berkata bahawa orang Melau tidak patut diberikan hak istimewa kerana nanti orang Melayu menjadi Red Indian di negara ini. Atas sikap ini Umno menghapuskan biasiswa untuk orang Melayu, memencilkan bahasa Melayu, menyahkan adat kebudayaan Melayu dan menggadaikan tanah rezab Melayu. Negeri Pak Lah sendiri yang dikuasai BN lebih 50 tahun, orang Melayu terpencil dan terpinggir sehingga menjadi seperti pelarian. Di Kuala Lumpur, orang Melayu hanya menguasai kawasan hitam di Chow Kit, sedangkan kawasan pertumbuhan ekonomi di Bukit Bintang dikuasai oleh orang bukan Melayu. Mereka cuba menggambarkan bahawa Umno itu Melayu, dan Melayu itu Umno. Selamat Umno, selamatlah Melayu kononnya. Walhal kerana adanya Umnolah maka Melayu benar-benar layu!

    Isu yang cuba diketengahkan oleh Umno dan agen-agennya semenjak Mac 2008 adalah untuk menjerat PAS supaya berasa simpati terhadap nasib bangsanya. Seolah-olah PAS kini mengenepikan kepentingan orang Melayu sebelum ini. Umno beranggapan bahawa punca tergugatnya Islam dan terpinggirnya Melayu disebabkan kemenangan PR dan persepakatan PAS bersama dengan PKR dan DAP. Dan kesemua bebanan ini ditujukan kepada PAS dan PR sebagai punca sedangkan PR baru menjadi kerajaan selama 4 bulan serta pada masa yang sama terpaksa merawat kudis buta tinggalan kerajaan BN sebelum ini. Adakah Umno sudah lupa, Melayu di Pulau Pinang bukan terpinggir kerana DAP tetapi kerana kezaliman kerajaan BN yang telah menguasai negeri tersebut sejak 50 tahun dahulu. Adakah Umno sudah lupa, merekalah yang telah merobohkan masjid / surau di Selangor malah merekalah yang menjadikan Melayu dungu, pak angguk dan jahil dengan agama selama ini. PAS sudah beratus kali menegaskan bahawa orang Melayu akan selamat jika Islam berdaulat. Kemahuan Umno untuk bermuzakarah dengan PAS ini bukan kerana kepentingan Islam atau ketuanan Melayu, tetapi kerana survial politik mereka. Dalam keadaan PAS hanya baru mendengar apa luahan hati Umno dan tidak ada sebarang keputusan pun dibuat oleh PAS mengenainya, Umno sudah memanipulasikan muzakarah ini. Ia satu bukti yang cukup jelas bahawa Umno tidak ikhlas dan mereka hanya mahu memerangkap PAS.

    Saya menyeru pimpinan dan ahli-ahli PAS supaya berhati-hati dengan permainan politik kotor ini. Ia bukan terbit dari hati ikhlas pemimpin Umno, tetapi ia satu strategi politik untuk memecahkan PAS daripada PR dan menghapuskan kepercayaan rakyat kepada PAS. Kita mesti belajar dari sejarah bahawa dulu, kini dan selamanya adalah pengkhianat dan mereka tidak melakukan sesuatu melainkan untuk mengkhianati perjuangan PAS. Jika tiada apa-apa, masakan tempua bersarang rendah. Kita jangan tergoda oleh isu-isu yang cuba ditimbulkan untuk memerangkap PAS. Biar kita menjadi pembangkang yang dimuliakan rakyat, daripada mendapat kuasa dalam penghinaan rakyat!

    YB Tn Hj Mahfuz Omar
    Ahli Parlimen Pokok Sena
    Ketua Penerangan PAS Pusat

  18. #18 by k1980 on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 7:44 am

    At the rate new malaysia under snoozing dollah is going, we shall soon become billionaires like zimbabweians

  19. #19 by chin on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 7:54 am

    Check mate ! If these young PAS leaders knows what is best for future, than you guys should stop what you are doing now. UMNO guys willing be your underdog in the moment, as once they rise to power, you guys in turn are the underdogs. The choice is yours ! Nobody can stop what you are doing, not even Nik Aziz !

  20. #20 by Jeffrey on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 8:04 am

    Whether old or new, those of PAS’s leaders who negotiated with UMNO under the cover of Malay Unity shared the common objectives to secure power, government positions and the usuual benefits of patronage. UMNO is “weak” only in the sense that it requires the numbers from PAS to regain 2/3 and perhaps one or two state governments but is otherwise the “stronger” party being able, as incumbent, to dish out the carrots and the lollies.

    UMNO has to rely on pretext of Malay Unity (not only because of some grass root concerns that the community’s political power had been eroded by the political tsunamy of March 8th) but also because had it relied on religious unity it would be difficult to reconcile, as what Farish said, moderate Hadari Islam with PAS’s brand of Islam which has been painted by it as “Taliban-esque”.

    This placed the bunch of PAS’s negotiators at a big disadvantage. They looked like they sold out their own members to collaborate with the opposite side of a different religious banner; they sold out the Pakatan Rakyat and the voters who supported them because of their opposition to – rather than collaboration with – UMNO/BN. They sold out non Malays who suported them because their ideology was supposedly transcendental of race factor. They might have even sold out themselves since their entry at this point into BN will be within UMNO’s power to dictate what positions (read crumbs) they would be entitled. Had they stuck on with the Pakatan Rakyat that won power, they might get more. They have inadvertantly shown the face that they are more concerned with benefits and positions associated with power than the purity of doctrines.

    It might have made sense if they were certain that Anwar who is the glue that holds the Pakatn Rakyat together will fall from the recent sodomy allegations – and with it the falling apart of PR. However this is something that is far from certain. This is because evidential proof necessary to placate an extremely skeptical public is elusive. Otherwise the government will not be trying to get Anwar’s DNA.

    PAS’s spiritual adviser Tok Guru Nik Aziz is wiser and more patient as well as principled of the lot. He appreciates that longer term PAS’s objective of establishing a theocratic state is better realised either through PR vehicle or on PAS’s own but certainly not through collaborating with what he may well consider are crony capitalists wearing a religious cap, and spewing racial slogans.

    Which is why on balance his counsel will probably prevail on majority in PAS over the faction led by Hadi.

    However it is already too late. The other side of PAS has been revealed, pretensions exposed, at least to those supporters of PR opposed both to BN’s communal politics and the theocratic state.

  21. #21 by yhsiew on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 8:05 am

    YAHOO ASIA NEWS (Wednesday July 23, 7:26 PM):

    “For now, I have no reason to question the intention of the PAS leadership. They have given an assurance to me that the collaboration with the opposition remains and is unchanged,” he (Anwar) said.

    PAS youth chief Salahuddin Ayub told AFP that there will be no more “secret meetings” with UMNO.

    “We remain committed to the opposition pact. We will work together. We will not discuss with UMNO the issue of power sharing,” he said.

  22. #22 by greenacre on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 8:46 am

    Each and everytime they say that they are islamic or muslims. Now they are talking of unity.

    It is about time that someone show them the movie ‘untouchables’ acted by sean connery.

    Wonder that will be of help to those unteachable fellows, swallowing public money as though there is no tomorrow.

  23. #23 by Bigjoe on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 8:47 am

    My issue is this, who does he see as progressive and who does he see as the conservative one in PAS? The ones that held/agree to the talks were Nasaruddin Mat Isa, Mustapha Ali, Hadi Awang while the one who oppose it is under Nik Aziz camp.

    It seems the young ones may not be the progressive ones while the old ones may not be the conservative ones?

  24. #24 by PHUAKL on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 8:59 am

    Dear All

    Take a look at this interesting analysis from Malaysia Waves:

  25. #25 by kiren on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 9:10 am

    lets see what happens next… i hope there wont be ant co- incidency again!!! cant you guys see…hindraf! elelction! altantuya! sodomy!… comes in one line….

  26. #26 by kiren on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 9:14 am

    i wonder how are things in kl now…. well i just hope there is no 1969 riot again…. but there is always a question arises- how is anwar going to be our prime minister before or on 16th sept 2008? im kinda curiouse – cus badawi is a kinda ( degil!!) person… its so difficult for him to leave the honour sit of prime minister// even now// … some says he wants to make sure that he has enough EPF by year 2010.. thats y he’s taking long to step down!!

  27. #27 by blablowbla on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 9:23 am

    undergrad2,u r very smart 2 use tis name,it means u r allowed 2 make mistakes,cos u r undergratuated,right?
    oh,sorry,just to correct the word collaboration! :-I

  28. #28 by MPSPK on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 9:24 am

    I think Nik Aziz’s camp is the progressive one.. the one who really knows what the people want… who actually knows how to play politics…. see how Kelantanese support him??? he already an MB for nearly 20 years!! this is his 5th term!!

    Whatabout Hj Hadi camp??? he thought PAS is so strong now… he thought it is because of his leadership… he was wrong… it’s becasu Nik Aziz… remember.. Haj Hadi is a one-term MB of Terengganu… bad track record in comparison to Nik Aziz’s.

  29. #29 by ADAM YONG IBNI ABDULLAH on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 9:27 am

    hadi was arrogant and is arrogant.

  30. #30 by blablowbla on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 9:29 am

    dear politicians,please dun simply throw the word “god” frm ur mouth!
    God is God,evil is evil,if u ppl do evil things n using God’s name,forever u b devil!

  31. #31 by blablowbla on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 9:33 am

    typo error,graduate!

  32. #32 by wanderer on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 9:55 am

    How do we define Muslim Unity/Malay Unity? Is it for the purpose of protecting the truth coming out from the sodomy and murder allegations. Above all, to cover all the corruptions and evil deeds of Umno leaders. Umno is trying to deflect full responsibility of their evil doings if PAS came to join them. Whether it is the New and Old PAS, they are all in together, sleeping with the devils.

  33. #33 by NSO on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 10:01 am



  34. #34 by Samuel Goh Kim Eng on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 10:41 am

    Under the guise of race and religion there’s plenty of undercurrent
    With uncertainty of the direction which it will eventually flow
    Trying to keep up with what’s really in vogue and still current
    There’s still unlimited amount of air hot and cold for leaders to blow

    (C) Samuel Goh Kim Eng – 240708
    Thur. 24th July 2008.

  35. #35 by StevePCH on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 10:56 am

    aiyah…. i remembered the motto on the street during last election was ” Anything but BN ” if PAS joins the devil. I truly believe Rakyat is smart enough.

    I also believe PAS is not so stupid as the saying goes ” Once bitten Twice Shy “. If kena lagi, then padan muka lor !!!

    They will be sodomized by BeEnd. Rakyat will vote PAS out and instead opt for PKR or DAP.

  36. #36 by digard on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 10:59 am

    Thanks for another great analysis, Farish Noor!
    Actually, we have a win-win-situation on our hands: UMNO is desperate and will do whatever is possible to stay in power. Whatever. Remember my words.
    Hadi et al. enjoy the power and the limelights. Plus, probably a handsome travel allocation handed in a brown envelope, and the aspiration to become DPM (even more) in the future. Look at the sparkle in Hadi’s eyes. Truthful and trustworthy, he is not. He knows well enough what bedding with UMNO will bring for PAS. He simply doesn’t care as long as his personal thirst is quenched.

  37. #37 by oknyua on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 11:31 am

    Yes, sir that is the danger because UMNO can unashamedly repaint themselves to the liking of PAS. The new people of PAS are like the new people of UMNO. They have no memory of the acrimonious split 20 years ago.

    Once the like of Tok Guru disappears, the unholy alliance of PAS-UMNO will be a reality. No, it would not be a “Malay Unity.” It wil be based on Islam where everything will be found permissible with new Arabic “muzurakah, muzaribah, arahabah, marakah…” anything Arabic that you and I can’t understand will make the alliance of UMNO-PAS permissible.

    No I am not against Malay Unity which I can easily work with.

  38. #38 by Bigjoe on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 12:18 pm

    This is about PAS. If PAS is able to hold and continue to be progressive, UMNO has no choice but to follow and leave it racist ways behind. BUT if PAS falls back on conservatism, UMNO can continue as is..

    Its not about Malay unity, its about Malay progressiveness…

  39. #39 by nyghtsky on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 12:25 pm

    Pakatan Rakyat consist of modern Malaysian’s choice of elected representatives. Have faith that they ( our MPs ), PAS included will not fall for any UMNO bait, and join in their betrayal and sodomy of the Rakyat!

  40. #40 by Captain on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 12:42 pm

    Melalui National Convention tajaan Tunku Abdul Rahman juga, Umno telah memperdayakan parti-parti Melayu seperti PAS dan PMS dengan memberikan hak mengundi kepada warga asing mengikut jus soli (birthright citizenship)
    …..YB Tn Hj Mahfuz Omar
    Ahli Parlimen Pokok Sena, Ketua Penerangan PAS Pusat

    It sounds painful. Giving voting rights to non malay malaysians …expressed as ‘terpedaya’? What is Mahfuz trying to say…giving voting rights to Malaysians born in this country was a mistake?

  41. #41 by Captain on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 12:53 pm

    just a little deviation.

    Media reported Terengganu MB as saying to reporters yesterday ‘kalau bini masih cantik, buat apa tukar?’

    this is an insult to womenfolk especially wives. What does UMNO leaders mean? Why wife grows old and become less bautiful, throw them out and get a new young wife?

    shame. shame. shame on UMNO leaders mentality.

  42. #42 by citizenwatch on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 12:57 pm

    The UMNO-PAS talk was conceived by UMNO as a strategic plan after the 12th GE with sub-goals and a goal. The sub-goals are:

    1) To reate suspicions and disunity or split among PR

    2) To regain the credibility in the eyes of the Malays.

    3) To further divert attention from their current wakness, sinister acts and plans.

    UMNO’s ultimate goal is to get PAS to LEAVE PR and join UMNO. If they don’t achieve this ultimate goal, they will at least be satisfied with the above sub-goals achieved. If they achieve the goal of PAS joining UMNO, it’ll be a bonus.

  43. #43 by citizenwatch on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 12:59 pm

    Sorry in 1) it should read ‘ create suspicions…’

  44. #44 by One4All4One on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 1:37 pm

    Politics will be politics will be politics…and Malaysian brand of politics will be what it is now for as long as it is, unless “something drastic” happens to make it change its course.

    For something which is so entrenched and hardened in local habits and nuances, the local political scenario needs a concerted and well thought-out plan of action, with specific aims and missions and agenda, graduating into a movement helmed by believable men and women of integrity, to move out of the outdated and outmoded practices and beliefs.

    This is the only way out. Unless and until that is done there is little hope for a NEW Malaysia which caters for ALL Malaysians regardless of ethnicity or religious and political inclinations.

    The acceptable way, perhaps, is to out-law race based political parties and politics. All political parties must be open to ALL Malaysians. Only then government policies would be colour-blind and non-race based and be fair to all.

    An even and level playing field would be created where all would compete on their own merits. Even so, there shouldn’t be much worry as there is always more than enough for everyone as Malaysia is a rich nation, barring no plundering of the nation’s coffers happen through nepotism, cronyism, favouritism, or the like of them.

    I sense that Malaysians are ready for that change to happen. Only thing is that the necessary and required catalyst hasn’t shown up yet.

    Good luck Malaysia, and God bless.

  45. #45 by tangwengheng on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 1:55 pm

    In politics, the saying goes, “There is no permanent friend or foe.” And it cannot be more true in the current Malaysian political climate.

    The long-standing feud between Dr M and his chosen successor, Abdullah Ahmad Badawi, which has partly contributed to BN’s dismal result in March 8 General Election, does not seem going to end anytime soon.

    Despite being bitten once in 1999, with the fruits of reward in the form of Selangor and Perak State Governments, DAP braves itself for a second reunion with PAS.

    With UMNO-PAS talks proceeding at the highest level behind DAP’s back, will the rocket be bitten twice by the same snake, albeit different holes?

  46. #46 by ShiokGuy on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 2:00 pm

    PAS isanother BN component party in the making.. I blog about this in early April after the GE12, My uncles and aunties who were HARDCORE AGAINST GREEN MOON PAS called angrily after PAS TALK ABOUT their stupid thing again..

    I shouldn’t have convinced them to vote for PAS then, if PAS still going around about islamic state and all those nonsense. They will be reduce to just one seat against.. The One seat is just for the respect for Old Nik Aziz.

    Before GE12, GE9-GE11, we always vote in the following rules.. Vote Opposition unless it PAS. If the only opposition is PAS.. Then vote BN. We manage to convince a lot of our uncles and aunties to Just Vote Opposition and does not matter if it is PAS>> Now PAS want to rape and sodomize us? Sorry! NO WAY

    Shiok Guy

  47. #47 by One4All4One on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 2:31 pm

    PAS must always remember its indebtedness to the voters who are from all ethnic groups to get to where it is now.

    It is in a position of power to serve the nation and rakyat. Didn’t all political parties have that as their mission? Dr Khir Toyo was said to be tempted to influence PAS to form the State government, a big catch indeed, after BN’s unexpected exit in Selangor after GE12.

  48. #48 by Emily Pratt on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 2:44 pm

    PAS… stop! Don’t even think of betraying the rakyat. If you do not heed the rakyat’s warning…

    by GE-13, PAS will be booted out of Kelantan, Perlis, Kedah, & Perak. They will be like Gerakan, a political party with no representation in the government.


  49. #49 by One4All4One on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 2:49 pm

    Mr Khir Toyo once declared to clear opposition political parties from the state of Selangor. That happened just before GE12. What do PAS have to say about that? And then he suggested to form the state government with PAS after UMNO’s dismal failure? What a contradiction! It smacks of intrigue and sinister aims. And being hypocritical at that. What should PAS read into this?

  50. #50 by oknyua on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 3:15 pm

    Media reported Terengganu MB as saying to reporters yesterday ‘kalau bini masih cantik, buat apa tukar?’
    – Captain

    No that is not a deviation, that is their mentality. Talak tiga when wrinkles appear on their wives. Read RPK’s artciles on how he is really pissed off with this mentality. That explains the Mercedes. Proton not wanted. That explains the talk between UMNO and PAS – maybe PR’s days are numbered.

  51. #51 by ADAM YONG IBNI ABDULLAH on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 4:08 pm

    tangwengheng makes good sense.

    kit siang and karpal singh were both opposition lions booted out of the parliament with the barisan alternatif. hope yb lim remembers. and yb lim is not surrounded by advisors that he will ever be the deputy pm of malaysia. it will never happen in his life time or mine.

    i suggest that kit siang, tok guru nik aziz and anwar ibrahim settle their house first before even talking about ruling the federal government. this hype of taking over the governing of malaysia by september is poor strategy, when secret talks were held . damage done. i am suspicious and so are many raayat.

    if we truly advocate bangsa malaysia, as i mentioned earlier which was being moderated, there was no need for secret talk.but alas, anwar too had secret talk with yong teck lee of sapp. this is bad for the nation and indeed bad for good governance.

    there are five states that are under PR rule , but there is no synergy in them at all. the mb of kedah wants to cut down all trees as a threat for federal funds without considering the state of penang water supply. talk about unity and cooperation.!!!

    a bird in hand is better than two in the tree. hope kit siang remembers this and remember well.

    1. dap needs rebranding. go on a membership drive for more malays and indians.

    2. dont play second fiddle to party keadilan. otherwise dap is like mca or gerakan.

    3. get pas to understand the constitution , and stop this fanatic taliban idea on skirts and singers and concerts.

    believe that when tok guru nik aziz is not around, there will be a split in pas. i know hadi. i know how he loves glamour. i know how he travels with bodyguards n entourage. make a trip to trengganu and ask the locals.

  52. #52 by ADAM YONG IBNI ABDULLAH on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 4:12 pm

    yb lim,

    are you surrounded by advisors that failed to remind you of 1999?

  53. #53 by sudokuku on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 4:12 pm

    This remind me of transformer!,
    The UMNO transformer team – ” more than meet the eye”.

    with hollywood magic they can transform to became the hero that you want and the next minute transform back to devil.

    come on lah UMNO, we are not kids anymore, cukup lah dah korek 50 tahun, poket sudah penuh, crony sudah melimpah, apalagi mau.

  54. #54 by ADAM YONG IBNI ABDULLAH on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 4:14 pm

    tell us raayat what has PR done during the last five months and NOTwhat BN had done for the last 50 years. PR is breaking up.

    hope yb lim, your advisors are telling you the grassroot truth.

  55. #55 by ADAM YONG IBNI ABDULLAH on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 4:16 pm


    greed can never be satisfied.

  56. #56 by sjchange on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 4:46 pm


    “Umno sekarang sudah lemas dan dia nak minta tolong PAS, sedangkan PAS sendiri bekerja keras untuk melemaskan Umno.

    Tetapi apabila Umno lemas sekarang, kita nak angkat dia balik, itu BUKAN kerja kita.

    Biar lemaslah dia, dah 50 tahun kita lawan Umno, bila dia lemas kita LANYAK dia…sepatutnya begitu.

    Saya setuju benar biar Umno jadi pembangkang bukan sahaja di Kelantan, tetapi di seluruh negara termasuk di peringkat pusat.

    Kita nak jaga Islam, jaga Umno apa yang akan kita dapat. Umno ni sebenarnya parti yang melonggarkan iman.

    Orang Melayu selama ini longgar kerana Umno.

    Tetapi kalau PAS nak jaga Islam, BUKAN caranya untuk PAS bekerjasama dengan Umno. …”
    -Tok Guru Dato Nik Abdul Aziz Nik Mat
    Mursyidul Am PAS/Menteri Besar Kelantan

  57. #57 by zak_hammaad on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 6:18 pm

    Inshaa All?h is an Arabic term evoked to indicate hope for an aforementioned event to occur in the future. The phrase translates into English as “God willing” or “If it is God’s will”.

    The term is also related to another Arabic term, Maasha All?h which means “God has willed it”.

    This word is often used to indicate a desire to do something that you wish may occur. This also provides God’s blessing on what you are about to do. For example, if you want to do something, in particular if you know that it is very hard to achieve, you invoke God’s blessing before it occurs or before you set out to do it.

    Usage of Insha’Allah is derived from Islamic scripture (in Qur’an 18:24): “And never say of anything, ‘I shall do such and such thing tomorrow. Except (with the saying): ‘If God wills!’ And remember your lord when you forget…”

    Usage of this word is a proclamation of God’s Lordship over all matters and for a Muslim, reaffirms Worship in the unique monotheistic sense.

  58. #58 by ADAM YONG IBNI ABDULLAH on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 6:34 pm

    dear zak_hammaad,

    if i know that i will be offered a bribe of rm50,000.00 tomorrow, i will not and should not invoked ” God’s will “. you know it is a sin.

    the teaching of qada and qadar do not also gives us an excuse that it is so written therefore i have sinned.

    the secret meeting of pas and umno is certainly mans’ greed of power and position, nothing to do with God’s will.

    thank you.

  59. #59 by kosong on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 6:35 pm

    Don’t use the name of God here and there lah..especially in politics where it has no meaning.

    Politicians are the scum of the earth. In fact, Malaysia is one of the those countries where you cannot make a distinction between scum and scumbag.

    Polis = corrupt scum

    Judges = corrupt puppets

    Politicians = corrupt thiefs, liars and fools

    Criminals = scum

    So no difference between any of the above. God will surely make all the above pay. So what can you expect from PAS? Politicians who are again scum…money talks lah. Malaysia a land of no morals. God will ensure Malaysia will pay for her sins.

  60. #60 by Hishamuddin on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 6:40 pm

    Dear YB Lim,
    Pakatan Goverment is talking on the formation of the Federal Goverment soon and yet I have the feeling that the group is yet ready.

    After the GE, the rakyat expect the formation of a shadow cabinet while waiting for the formation of the Goverment. Now when ever there is any matter, all the talk is by YB Lim, Anwar and the top leaders of the Pakatan only. Why not the other supopose to be shadow cabinet Ministers ?

    Everything will still be YB Lim, YB LIm n YB Lim.

    I feel it is time we need to train the others up and get them ready for the big day. Unless the rakyat see such professionalism in PR, I feel we are not yet there.

  61. #61 by ADAM YONG IBNI ABDULLAH on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 6:47 pm

    i have just texted omar about his racist remark, i am awaiting his reply.

    yb, my sincere request that pr have a proper agenda and guided rules . maybe only one spokeperson for the whole pr, rather than each having a say in the media . raayat are confused.

    judiciary reform is forgotten.
    police reform is forgotten.
    pkftz scandal is forgotten.
    aps scandal is forgotten.
    exco asset declaration is forgotten.
    lingam and company is forgotten. yet to know about bar counsel action.
    the poor are getting poorer.
    inflation soars to official 7.7%. unofficial maybe 15%.
    mb of trengganu dont give hoots to the pm.

    we are busy with sodomy and crossover.
    and the premier in waiting.

  62. #62 by ADAM YONG IBNI ABDULLAH on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 6:54 pm

    i certainly agreed with kosong and hishamuddin.

    sudah lah.

    shadow cabinet is not formed because they have not seen the light. without light , you cannot have shadow.

  63. #63 by taiking on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 6:58 pm

    I think we should not despair.
    PAS has every right to do what it pleases.
    We believe in freedom and basic right.
    Dont we?
    So we should uphold our belief.
    There is no need to stop them.
    No need to be upset.
    Instead, let’s weigh our strength (i.e. PR’s strength) without PAS.
    Start with the question, can PAS command the support of all malaysians?
    This question need not be answered. Its obvious.
    Non-malays would reject them right away.
    Not all malays would not embrace them either.
    Not city folks anyway.
    Not those with money.
    Now, next question.
    Can UMNO command the support of all malaysians?
    Its pretty obvious too.
    Badawi, Najib, Khairy, Md. Tyson, Kerisman, Dr.M’s son, Razaleigh – none of them has anything to show really.
    The party is very weak.
    However, it can still command enough support to form the government because of fear for change by some voters and vested interests.
    Support that is based on factors like these are usually not dependable and outright unpredictable.
    So in conclusion, UMNO may be in control but in reality, it may be swept off the ground quite easily.
    Finally, can PR (DAP+KeAdilan) do the job? Sweep UMNO without the help of PAS?
    DAP is stable and strong after all these years.
    It has got its core of supporters.
    KeAdilan is not stable and its long term strength has not been tested.
    At the moment, KeAdilan is anwar. Anwar is KeAdilan.
    KeAdilan is popular because of Anwar.
    That is why they decided to repeat the sodomy accusation again.
    Fortunately, KeAdilan is a multi-racial party.
    And fortunately, MCA and MIC and Gerakan have gone under.
    And Sabahans are one big load of uncertainty in UMNO’s heavy bag.
    That more or less balance things up a little.
    So how do we move from here?
    Penang, rule it properly. Show results.
    Selangor, govern properly. Show results.
    Perak, govern properly. Show results.
    MPs’ make a big show in Parliament.
    Let voters see that opposition MPs can work and make a difference.
    Old habits die hard.
    UMNO will continue to be corrupt and unproductive and inefficient.
    Look, 14 new mercs for 3+ million just 5 months after election and in this economic climate! That is classic.
    UMNO is on the way downhill certainly.
    That by the way is unstopable.
    Look at the Phillipines and Indonesia. Look at history. Great empires, great nations. Great dynasties.
    They all face the same fate.
    When the downhill machinery starts rolling, there is no stopping until the path downhill is fully covered.
    PR must go uphill. That is important.
    Persevere. Do not lose sight of objectives.
    That way by next election, the difference would be felt and could be translated into a shift of power.

  64. #64 by lakilompat on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 7:01 pm

    Penang update:-

    “GEORGE TOWN: Take a 10% pay cut if Pakatan Rakyat is serious about helping the rakyat – that was Datuk Roslan Saidin’s (BN- Pinang Tunggal) message to Chief Minister Lim Guan Eng.”

    Is Datuk Roslan Saidin high on cocaine, Federal BN govt. already cut 80% RM 4.7 Billion Penang funds, now what can the 10% pay cut can do to help? why not ask Federal cut by 40% instead of 80% this Malay Datuk is very stupid, i will give him a kick if i see him on Penang road.

  65. #65 by Loh on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 7:37 pm

    What is Malay unity? What do PAS and UMNO hope to achieve through Malay unity?

    If Malay unity is for cooperating among human beings classified as Malays to lead an honest live, then that unity can be extended to include everybody else.

    If Malay unity is intended to obtain more seats and larger majority in the parliament and state assemblies, so that together they are able to bury and suppress people not classified as Malays, then it is a threat to the security of the country.

    PM AAB owes the country an explanation on his concept of Malay unity under which he inititated discussion with PAS to forge Malay unity.

  66. #66 by zak_hammaad on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 7:47 pm

    ADAM YONG, I do not disagree with you about that. However, the “secret meeting” of pas and umno is not really a secret is it?

    If the BN dropped racial politicking from it’s agends, this would be better for the country. but it has gone beyond that. It is very plausible that the opposition show how they work (for example Penang). I think gradually a lot of Malaysians are coming around to see this in non-racial politics in practise. The BN of today is a hodge-podge of incompetent and clueless leaders and it will take a fresh approach from the younger and more dynamic people to lead.

    I very much like the Singapore model of government where the most competent people are given positions of responsibility. I agree that there is nepotism to a little extent, but the funny thing is that Malaysia also practises nepotism but with negative results :^) This is because they do NOT put the best people in charge of the most responsible roles.

    It may be that BN no longer has people with leader qualities, and this is where the opposition can capitalise. If they can show a successful working model of alternative governship, political change may be coming sooner than you think. However, to try and separate Islam for politics is suicide because there are equal number of people who are anti-secular as there are pro-secular.

    As for Malaysian-Malay, Malaysian-Chinese, Malaysian-Indian; this is a fact of most nation states. In Singapore, you are identified by your race and in Britain, you are identified by your race (i.e. British Asian); this is not the problem. The problem is when these categorisations lead to discrimination, this is why we have to fight.

    I also know that in Britain there is a proposal for “positive discrimination” for the minorities! If an employer got 2 applications, they would be forced to choose the minority application over white. Clearly this is being frowned upon by the white majority as racism. Where do you draw the balance between social justice and national stability?

  67. #67 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 7:49 pm

    blablowbla Says:

    Today at 09: 29.12 (10 hours ago)
    dear politicians…God is God,evil is evil…”

    Don’t you know that the Devil is one of God’s fallen angels??

    If God is God and Evil is Evil, then why are there soldiers armed to
    their teeth chasing after bearded and turbaned gun totting scraggly looking half starved people who merely wanted to be free to grow poppies so they could feed their families? Why are there the same half starved looking, disease ridden, desperate looking people eager for the promise of 72 virgins, blowing themselves in whichever way they know how?

    If Conscience is God’s presence in us, then why do some of us fly airplanes into tall buildings to make their point??

  68. #68 by ADAM YONG IBNI ABDULLAH on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 7:56 pm

    lucifer was the creation of GOD.
    and so is adam.

    undergrad2- you are absolutely right.

  69. #69 by isahbiazhar on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 8:32 pm

    Umno approached Pas out of desperation and has nothing to do with race.Toyo was bold enough to sell Umno to Pas just to gain face.He had already planned as to how to topple the government at a future date.He got the idea from Mahathir.But Nik Aziz knew the plan well and told the new leaders that PAS does not want to become one election party.It wants permanency and that means work for those non muslims who had voted for you.New young Pas turks should not be excited fast because once subsided the truth will come out.PKR is the initial solution before a unifying party comes about.

  70. #70 by KennyGan on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 8:34 pm

    But the worse did not happen and PAS is still with PR. Can we look at it in a different light and say PAS was tempted by the devil and passed the test?

    I think PAS may emerge stronger after this with the young impatient elements in PAS given a whack and put in their place.

    Meanwhile, MCA is also not gaining from this. They have always flogged DAP in front of the Chinese community for working with PAS but now they seem strangely silent when Umno talks to PAS in a deal which would have sidelined the non-Malays.

    How do you think MCA is appearing in the eyes of the Chinese now?

  71. #71 by badak on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 8:44 pm

    With UMNO being the the “” BIG BOSS ”’ in BN the other component parties don,t even dare open their mouth when HAMSATMUDIN RAISED the kriss to threaten the non MALAYS.
    When SOTHI MIC stood up to speak on behalf of the INDIANS he was thrown out for 6 mts,NO MIC leaders stood up for him.When the MIC guy from MIC stood up to speak up on the HINDRAFF cause.. He was ask to apoligize by UMNO YOUTH.
    When the MCA and GERAKAN YBs from PENANG did not vote for PDRR in the PENANG STATE ASSEMBLY they were suspended for 3 mts.

    Now if PAS joint,s BN. The non MALAYS will lose even more of its rights….

  72. #72 by zak_hammaad on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 9:04 pm

    undergrad2, I think this thread is beginning to take on an Islamophobc tone; please remain perspective.

    >> Don’t you know that the Devil is one of God’s fallen angels??

    In Islam, Iblees was not an angel nor a fallen one for that matter. He was a creation from amongst the jinn. The Qur’an states: “… So they prostrated themselves except Iblees (Satan). He was one of the jinn; he disobeyed the Command of his Lord…” [translation of 18:50]

    The rest of your post carries statements and not questions. You appear to ask questions which are implied statements; that is a misnomer. If I were to ask you: “Is your brother out of prison?” – This is a question that implies a statement that your brother is in prison. You will neither be able to give me a ‘yes’ or a ‘no’ answer to this example :^)

    In 1941 Hitler told one of his generals: “I am now, as before, a Catholic and will always remain so.” And he was never ex-communicated from the Church. Would you now blame Catholicism for all the bloodletting of the Nazis? I don’t think so; likewise you should be just and objective enough to judge a faith by it’s sources and not those who claim to be adherents thereof.

    “Do people think that they will be left alone because they say: ‘We have faith’, and will not be tested? And We indeed tested those who were before them. And Allah will certainly make known, those who are true, and will certainly make known those who are liars.” [translation of 29:1-3]

    “It is He Who has created death and life that He might test you which of you is best in deed.” [translation of 67:2]

    “And if Allah did not check one set of people by means of another, the earth would indeed be full of mischief: But Allah is full of bounty to all the worlds.” [translation of 2:251]

    Hence, trials and tribulations we are witnessing in the world is but a test of faith and patience. There will be extremists on all sides, but the cure for ignorance as ever, remains knowledge.

  73. #73 by bukanbumi on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 9:21 pm

    # cemerlang Says:
    Today at 06: 57.29 (14 hours ago)
    Wow ! Malaysia is so full of Allah.

    And also full of “allah-mak!”

  74. #74 by badak on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 9:23 pm

    Undergrad2 Please let me answer on your behalf. YES MY BROTHER JUST CAME OUT OF PRISON..HE JUST QUIT MCA AND JOIN DAP.Because MCA and all the other component parties in BN are prisoners and UMNO is the SADISTIC WARDEN.

  75. #75 by dawsheng on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 9:25 pm

    “shadow cabinet is not formed because they have not seen the light. without light , you cannot have shadow.”

    In a way, you are right. But what is the point of shadow cabinet at this turbulence moment? Just relax.

    When Pakatan Rakyat formed the government, ministers will have to face very high expectations Rakyat, if not up to the job, they have to resign immediately. I have Uncle Kit’s words for this.

  76. #76 by kerajaan.rakyat on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 9:32 pm

    Dear YB Lim and all readers,

    What is importance is not whether one is a Malay or Muslims.
    Much far importance is whether one is honest to others.

    Whether you are a Malay, Chinese, India or others, if you’re wrong doer – you’re fire. Period.

    I am a Malay but not just for Malays, I am for all.
    I am a Muslim but not just for Muslims, for all.

  77. #77 by dawsheng on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 9:34 pm

    “Where do you draw the balance between social justice and national stability?”

    You don’t draw anything. Social justice and national stability, you can’t have one without the other.

  78. #78 by gundam on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 9:36 pm

    “There will be extremists on all sides, but the cure for ignorance as ever, remains knowledge.”

    the cure for ignorance is wisdom.

  79. #79 by dawsheng on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 9:40 pm

    “In 1941 Hitler told one of his generals: “I am now, as before, a Catholic and will always remain so.” And he was never ex-communicated from the Church. Would you now blame Catholicism for all the bloodletting of the Nazis? I don’t think so; likewise you should be just and objective enough to judge a faith by it’s sources and not those who claim to be adherents thereof.”

    That’s why they have the church out of politics and government. I think we should too.

  80. #80 by zak_hammaad on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 9:41 pm

    dawsheng, LKY would highly disagree with you and so would every other country that remains in the clutches of civil strife.

  81. #81 by Anba on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 9:57 pm

    Dear Malaysians,
    The UMNO/PAS secret meetings makes one wonder the truth behind the meetings. I am of the opinion that there could be 2 reasons:
    1. The Malays ( PAS and UMNO ) begin to realize that the Malay unity is in jeopardy in the wake of Anuar’s rise once again. They want to get together to unite the Malays from further destruction.

    2. The second reason may be offensive but I have to share it anyway. Let me ask the question : Which is more important for the Malays, being true to their religion or compromising their religious differences for the sake of continuing to keep the Malay privleges? I’m asking this question because PAS and UMNO have differences in the way they approach Islam.
    From Wikipedia, ” PAS positions itself as a political party that aims to establish Malaysia as a country based on Islamic legal theory derived from the primary sources of Islam, the Quran, Sunnah as well as Hadiths, as opposed to Barisan Nasional’s Islam Hadhari, which PAS sees as based on a watered-down understanding of Islam”.

    Thus, we can ask the question whether PAS stoop low to the ” watered-down” understanding of Islam as practiced by UMNO OR UMNO upgrade their ‘watered-down’ understanding of Islam to meet PAS eye to eye.

    Any takers for any answers?

    May truth and justice set us free.

    God bless.

  82. #82 by zak_hammaad on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 10:01 pm

    dawsheng, I do not want to counter each point that you make, it should suffice that my general and broad postings reflect the demographic reality of Malaysia.

    Secularism may be accepted in a Christian society but it can never enjoy a general acceptance in an Islamic society. Please feel free to consult the following sites for more info on this topic:

  83. #83 by dawsheng on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 10:05 pm

    Who gets insulted the most from the Muzakarah between PAS and UMNO if not god?

  84. #84 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 10:28 pm


    May we have your response to what is written in the Quranic “Genesis” within the context of your earlier comments about “Iblis”.

    “As per the Qur’an, before the creation of Man, God (Arabic: Allah) created the Angels (which were made from light) — which had no free will — and the Jinn (from the smokeless fire).

    Later when God created Adam from clay, He ordered the beings in His presence to prostrate to Adam. All the angels did so yet the Jinn Iblis (English: Lucifer ) did not. Iblis was proud and considered himself superior to Adam, since Adam was made from clay and he was created from smokeless fire. For this act of disobedience, God damned him to hell for eternity, but gave him respite till the Day of Judgment at his request. Iblis obtained permission from God that he would use this time to lead all men astray to burn in hell.
    After their creation, Adam and Eve were allowed to dwell freely in al-Jannah Paradise, but God forbade them to go near a tree. According to the Qur’an, Iblis tricked Adam and Hawwa’ into eating a fruit from the tree. God then expelled all of them from Heaven and onto Earth, to wander about, as a punishment. Then Adam sought to repent to God, and God taught him the words by which to do so. God forgave Adam and Hawa and told them “Get ye down all from here; and if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (Qur’?n 2:38).” Iblis will try to influence as many of their descendants as he possibly could into sin, so as to be his companions in his final destiny into Hell.

    Thus Muslims consider Satan or Iblis, the greatest enemy and a test towards mankind, the result of which will determine one’s fate in the hereafter (Paradise or Hell)”

    So there you are! Satan is one of the fallen angels.

  85. #85 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 10:33 pm

    It is matter of semantics whether Satan is actually ‘one of the fallen angels’ or the so-called Jinn who refused to prostrate himself before the sons of God.

  86. #86 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 10:46 pm

    Well maybe it is not a matter of semantics but they were creations of God before He created Adam and Eve.

  87. #87 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 10:51 pm

    As if to add to the confusion, the ‘sons of God’ were the result of the sinful mixing of humanity with angels: (Genesis 6:1-4)

  88. #88 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 10:58 pm

    Ask limkamput! He is a cross between an Ayatollah and Pope Benedict.

  89. #89 by shamshul anuar on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 11:24 pm

    Dear Mahfuz and Farish,

    I refer to statements by both of you with regards to meeting between UMNO and PAS leaders.

    I hope you understand that despite your misgiving about these meetings, such meetings actually are very much appreciated and welcomed by the Malay community.

    PAS and UMNO both represent the Malay community. Both canclaim to speak on behalf of the Malays. I hope Mahfuz, jugding from your remarks, can exhibit a hallmark of a good Muslim” that is not to have an illconceived ideas about UMNO .

    You claimed that UMNO resulted in Malays in Penang becoming dungu. I am not so sure about that. UMNO, like PAS may not be perfect. But surely it also delivers to Malays and in fact to Malaysians.

    If that is not the case, why now suddenly PAS becoming ally to DAP . It is easy preaching that it is sinful to elect non Muslim as your reprensentative when you are in Kelantan when almosdt 90% population is Muslim. But in Perak oe Kedah when non Muslim forms sizable percentage, practicality means you have to include them.

    So after years of “maki hamun” of which I listened from my own ears , finally PAS actually following UMNO’s practice of having non Malay based political party as its ally. So, meaning you accept that some of UMNO’s practice is good.

    With ease, you have a coalition with DAP, resulting you having a Menteri Besar in Perak but the real power is DAP( with its 6 excos). Surely, it is hallmark of a magnaminity to accept “muzakarah” with UMNO.

    AS much as you warn PAS to be careful about any talk with UMNO, I also want PAS to be careful about its alliance with DAP. AS for Farish, from my observation and conversation with PAS members, i notice they all turn red faces when I reminded them on many occasions PAS leaders blasted UMNO for alliance with MCA, MIC.

    The truth is that many PAS members are not comfortable with PAS alliance with DAP. Contrary to what you said, PAS enhances its image if it is willing to talk to UMNO.

    GEt rid of ego; be it PAS or UMNO. Surely Mahduz ans Farish can understand that UMNO won in 79 seats. Its sway in Malay community is comparable if not greater to that of PAS. Meaning PAS or anybody must understand that UMNO also can claim to represent Malay community.

    By the way, this is for PAS. I am sure that Mahfuz is aware that
    10 years ago, Muhammad Sabu condemned Anwar as being honosexual and challenged Dr Mahathir to sack Anwar. It was published by Harakah itself.

    What is your comment now? Why the silence in PAS with regardss to Dr Mahathir’s sacking of Anwar by entire PAS members. Why sup[ported Anwar then and now.

    BE honest to yourselves, Mahfuz. Do not lie.

  90. #90 by limkamput on Friday, 25 July 2008 - 12:32 am

    If Conscience is God’s presence in us, then why do some of us fly airplanes into tall buildings to make their point?? undergrad2

    Becasue we have best of both worlds hypocrite like you around, got it?

  91. #91 by undergrad2 on Friday, 25 July 2008 - 12:38 am


    Kathy must have forgotten to give you your medications again!!

  92. #92 by TheWrathOfGrapes on Friday, 25 July 2008 - 9:46 am

    Boys – please debate the topic and the points raised, rather than resort to puerile ad hominem attacks.


  93. #93 by Bigjoe on Friday, 25 July 2008 - 10:05 am

    The reality is that PAS has a right to fight for Islamic country if it wants to. Although I have seen personally how religo-state mess up again and again, I still believe this is so.

    However, this is not about the right to fight for Islamic state. This is about the process for fighting for it. Is PAS going to chose the Machiavellian way or will it choose transparency and accountability. What is most despicable about those in PAS that talked with UMNO and what Nik Aziz allude to is the Machiavellian way, the Dr. M way of lying to everyone.

    While its impossible to completely stick to transparent, honest and accountable way in politics, the way forward for Malaysia is turn away from the Machiavellian way as much as possible. If PAS wishes to work with UMNO at some point, it has to be honest with its PR partners and hence loses the right for PR partner to completely trust PAS completely. PAS people cannot complain they are NOT trusted by their partners in PR. For example in Perak, they are given the PR but unhappy that exco is not majority Malay. It clearly justify it. In Selangor, its clear that having DAP being Deputy CM is the honest choice which is yet to be fufilled.

    This is about how we go foward, not about the end itself which is being debated. If we chose the end justify the ends no matter what, lets just bring back Dr. M as our ‘great’ leader…

  94. #94 by taiking on Friday, 25 July 2008 - 11:33 am

    Is there a need to unify the malays?

    This question will lead one to the next question:

    Is there a split amongst them?

    And on to the next question – the root question:

    What caused the split?

    Talk of unity would yeild no positive results if the cause of the split is not addressed.

    But then addressing the cause of the split would split UMNO up.

    Why? you might ask.

    Its all about UMNO, and UMNO’s failed policies.

    But UMNO cant split up – cant shoot its own foot.

    That is a strict NO. NO.

    Well then leave the reason for malay disunity aside.

    And for appearance sake, lets continue talking about malay unity.

    If talking is not enough give out sweets.

    Make a big show of it.

    Then bash PR. Bash Anwar. Bash non-malays.

    Anything that can stoke up the sentiments of malays.

    Will it work?

    Look at the malays in this blogsite.

    They as a race were bashed about here.

    They took them quite well – very well in fact.

    They were not emotional.

    They responded rationally.

    That’s cool man. If you ask me.

    Are they representative of the malays up and down the country?

    In cities and towns yes.

    In kampungs? I dont know.

    My judtment: UMNO will not be successful in its effot to unify the malays; at best limited success.

  95. #95 by Patek 1472 on Friday, 25 July 2008 - 11:37 am

    17. The next PM of Malaysia will follow R.A.H.M.A.N theory. (Fact).
    17. Perdana Menteri Malaysia yang berikutnya akan mengikuti teori R.A.H.M.A.N (Fakta).

    Quatrain 17

    In the month of summer games
    When leaders are chosen and thrown away
    Man starts to think again
    Power, Gold and Glory to gain

    Problems to glory are but hindrances
    To be solve is such a simple game
    Sleeping partner is to be cast away
    Expendable are those as such before

  96. #96 by i_love_malaysia on Friday, 25 July 2008 - 11:40 am

    PAS is a cheater and unfaithful to other PR components. PAS should be sacked from PR long ago for its unfaithful behaviour. PAS is checking out with BN UMNO to see and evaluate what goodies that it will get by joining BN or UMNO, by doing so i.e. just like trying out with other women and see whether there’re compatible even while they are still married, it is already showing its true colours!!! PR should call an EGM to question PAS unfaithful behaviour and ask PAS why action should not be taken against it!!!

  97. #97 by i_love_malaysia on Friday, 25 July 2008 - 11:58 am

    17. The next PM of Malaysia will follow R.A.H.M.A.N theory. (Fact).
    17. Perdana Menteri Malaysia yang berikutnya akan mengikuti teori R.A.H.M.A.N (Fakta). -Patek 1472
    N can be Ng Yen Yen!!!

  98. #98 by shadow on Friday, 25 July 2008 - 12:56 pm

    I’m not a politician but an observer. The three meetings bet. PAS and UMNO were an eyewash. The BN is desperate to break off the PR coalition. They really fear that the PR is going to take over the govt. as mentioned. So they are doing everything possible to achieve what they’ve planned. But somehow they’re failing. The sodomy alligations and the PAS-UMNO meetings appears faulty. As the spiritual leader of PAS warned some of the socalled PAS leaders not to be bitten by the snake again. Its my opinion that PAS will be doomed forever if they join BN again. Its my sincere advice to them that OPEN your eyes widely when you are discussing any matters with UMNO leaders. Until they prove their honesty, you don’t believe them. God bless the good people.

  99. #99 by ADAM YONG IBNI ABDULLAH on Friday, 25 July 2008 - 1:18 pm

    dear undergrad2 and limkamput.

    you two are great guys and i personally read much of your postings and i just hope whatever you had between both great and good guys can be buried.

    seriously, with no offence to others ( my apology ) , jeffrey qc , godfather ,dawsheng, another lawyer cto, undergrad2 ,limkamput have been very consistent on inputs that are beneficial to kit siang.

    even wrathofgrapes and i_love_ malaysia are all senior to me in this blog of yb lim.

    with due respect to limkamput , i dont think undergrad2 is an arrogant person with regards to your opinions and similarly, limkamput had always called a spade a spade. this is what kit siang needs. serious advisors on this blog.

    we should join force to kick out people like killer aka realworld who are a farce.

    with due respect to undergrad2, i think limkamput made lots of effort and research before posting.

    i was away, and it is sad to read you two great guys after each others’ neck. unless otherwise it was meant to provide the rest of us a nice “crack”.

    hope we bury the hatchet. ok mate.

    next month , we will be celebrating “Merdeka”, and i am feeling very negative about the celebration. what is there to celebrate when the raayat are suffering from high inflation and high interest rate.

  100. #100 by ADAM YONG IBNI ABDULLAH on Friday, 25 July 2008 - 1:21 pm

    dear i_love_malaysia.

    The next Prime Minister of Malaysia can be Nik Aziz.

  101. #101 by Emily Pratt on Friday, 25 July 2008 - 1:57 pm

    Let’s take an analogy: Lets assume Pakatan is the new management team and Malaysia is a comapny.

    You first need to delegate who to do what. (Where is the shadow cabinet?)

    Who is the GM? Who is the sales manager? Who is the Finance manager etc etc. All this should be clearly designated by now, Sep 16 is very near. (Don’t come Sep 16, Pakatan leaders commences in-fighting for post)

    Then you need a business plan. Where to get the source of funds, what is the cash flow like? What are the projected sales? What are the projected revenue and expenditure?

    As of now, I have not seen Pakatan does any of these… all they go about are telling us how bad the former management were bla bla bla…

    Come on guys get real… we already know how bad the previous management were, that is why we voted you in.

    Now get on to do the job…


  102. #102 by Godfather on Friday, 25 July 2008 - 2:18 pm

    Get on with what job ? PR has been snookered every step of the way by the den of thieves. Predictably so, since the thieves can’t allow their levels of incompetence to show. What is clear is that there can’t be a proper working model between state and federal if both are run by opposing politicians. We have to decide if all levels should be run by BN – or by PR.

  103. #103 by Godfather on Friday, 25 July 2008 - 2:42 pm

    The worst model is what exists today, and we the voters have inadvertently created it.

  104. #104 by citizenwatch on Friday, 25 July 2008 - 2:56 pm

    The PAS-UMNO talk is explained in Malaysia Waves/Malaysia Today under the title “Muzakarah: Another Perspective”. Please see extract below:

    “…Suddenly, the issue of PAS-UMNO meeting was raised again and this time, UMNO took advantage and the PM confessed that there were meetings held between PAS and UMNO.

    PAS leaders responsible was caught with their pants down. Now, the option of denial is no more and option. Finally, they confessed that the meetings did take place.

    When the news broke out, Tok Guru Nik Aziz blew a gasket. He was downright mad. One can easily noticed that each time Tok Guru was interviewed on TV, he did not mince his words.

    Tok Guru Nik Aziz has many reasons for his angry response. The main reason is that he experienced UMNO treachery personally. Remember, that Dato Asri would not have been able to bring PAS into BN if Tok Guru had not consented.( He was Ketua Dewan Ulama back then). I think Tok Guru is still haunted by his decision to this day.

    So, for Tok Guru Nik Aziz, whose decision allowed the move, the pain must be excruciating. For Tok Guru blowing his top like this is expected. In fact, I think if it wasn’t for his age, he would’ve taken heavier action against the “perpetrators”.

    Thank God Almighty, a meeting was called yesterday of the “Syura” and from bits of pieces I have gathered, Tuan Guru Haji Abdul Hadi Awang apologized for his mistake. The decision taken prohibits “Muzakarah” and permits only “Muqabalah”. The word “Muqabalah” can be translated as “social meeting”, the type that is not binding and formal.

    The same meeting strengthen PAS’s commitment to Pakatan Rakyat. …”

    To read the full article:

  105. #105 by citizenwatch on Friday, 25 July 2008 - 3:07 pm

    To Godfather:

    Don’t you think that it’s odd that Puppy-Power (the one who called you ‘greenhorn’) corrected himself when he misspelled Lee Kwan Yew’s name saying the his “England is no good”? What does inadvertant error of a person’s name has anything to do with one’s ‘England’ (English)? Puppy-Power might either be self-effacing or there’s something we don’t know about.

    At times, in the RealWorld, as opposed to cyber world, things are not what they seem to be. Some of the Umnoputeras cybertroopers assume other identities or usernames to carry out their agendas.

  106. #106 by taiking on Friday, 25 July 2008 - 3:10 pm

    Dear Adam,

    As a matter of fact it did not quite strike me the way it struck you that limkamput and undergrad2 are at war.

    It appears to me as if they were both having great fun poking at each other.

    That is net culture – blog culture. You see we log on. We see whats new. We read what others have to say about issues that affect us all. We contribute to the discussion. We agree with some. We may disagree with some and express our contrary views and do it in way we do always do in our individual and personal style. Good language. Bad language. Foul language and rojak. Semua pun boleh. Good opinions and stupid opinions and funny ones – doesnt matter. Just keep them coming. The point is participation and support for the blog-site. The other equally important point is this is an avenue for uncle kit to communicate with malaysians and the world.

    I enjoy visiting and contributing to the site. Really. No bull.

  107. #107 by ADAM YONG IBNI ABDULLAH on Friday, 25 July 2008 - 3:25 pm

    pas was not obliged to meet with umno after the march 8th general election. pas have kelantan , kedah and even (perak), thanks to the generousity of dap and pkr and the law of the state.

    i shall not question perak state constitution. i cannot.

    but to have secret meetings , not once but thrice creates doubts and suspicion within PR itself. Hadi should have know better that Badawi would have it splashed front page on all national medias that would have Pas feeling ashame and guilty of incest.

    And in line with the subject matter. What is so Islamic about the secret meeting and may pas and umno transcribe what was discussed for the good of islam for all muslims to know. please make the Islamic discussion public for all muslims to know. I , as a muslim have the right to know.

  108. #108 by ADAM YONG IBNI ABDULLAH on Friday, 25 July 2008 - 3:30 pm

    dear taiking,

    thanks for your brief. maybe i am really off sync with the cyber world. if they are both having fun than let them continue. thanks again taiking.
    (devilmaster is also another great guy that killer owed him an apology).

  109. #109 by Hishamuddin on Friday, 25 July 2008 - 4:29 pm

    YB Lim,
    It is a known fact that UMNO is a racialist party. Now we see the real face of AAB and teh Great Selangor MB. What they are doing is similar to ethenic cleansing in Selagor under KT.

    After UMNO get PAS support, they will and can sideline MCA, Gerakan and MIC. After all, they are irrelevant already after the last election.

    If those fellows in MCA, Gerakan and MIC still think they are equal partners in BN, think again. If they are, then they will participate in the meetings and brief on the progess.

    Pity those guys, they only read it in the papers.

    Ha ha. Serve them right. To UMNO, they are just guard dogs for their doors. Give them some left over bones at the end of each day, they will be happy.

  110. #110 by Godfather on Friday, 25 July 2008 - 4:54 pm


    I don’t see Puppy-Power as being a defender of the den of thieves. If anything, his/her infrequency at visiting this blog and commenting thereon suggests that he/she does not have the same agenda as RealWorld or Shamshul Anuar.

  111. #111 by Godfather on Friday, 25 July 2008 - 4:57 pm

    Adam Yong:

    Undergrad2 and Limkamput remind me of a couple who can’t live with each other, and yet can’t live without each other. So they go on airing their dirty linen in public, and follow each other dutifully from thread to thread. I can’t see the sniping ending anytime soon, irrespective of our interference and comments.

    Let them grow old together.

  112. #112 by zak_hammaad on Friday, 25 July 2008 - 5:22 pm

    undergrad2, semantics for you but a fact for the Muslims. Regards.

  113. #113 by undergrad2 on Friday, 25 July 2008 - 7:07 pm


    “Fact” for you – yes, but Quran, Bible, Torah are books of faith. Long before there was a Quranic Genesis, there was only the Genesis which is also the first of five books of the Torah.

  114. #114 by zak_hammaad on Friday, 25 July 2008 - 10:20 pm

    undergrad2, being selective with what you choose and ignore from my posts is a reflection of your desperation. When will you graduate? Better still, where will you graduate from?

    You know very well what I was specifically speaking of. The Qur’anic concept is clear-cut enough for Muslims to accept and not delve into the confusion you propose. Furthermore, it’s bemusing how you add words that were not said nor implied – “sons of God”? lol, maybe this would explain the reason why Trinity remains the single biggest cause of desertion from the Church :^) But that’s a different matter.

  115. #115 by undergrad2 on Friday, 25 July 2008 - 11:26 pm

    “The Qur’anic concept is clear-cut enough for Muslims to accept..” zak_hamaad

    If the concept is clear, explain why there are Shiites and Sunnis and these two groups of Muslims have been killing each other ever since? The Quoran like the Bible and the Torah are books of faith.

    Come down from your high pedestal and stop talking down to readers as if you have the monopoly of the truth. That, in case you missed, is my message to you.

  116. #116 by zak_hammaad on Friday, 25 July 2008 - 11:51 pm

    undergrad2, what you are now doing is jumping around like a kangaroo and grabbing any subject that tickles your fancy. I am not going to fall for your time-wasting tactics, but will leave this thread with a fundamental principle by which anyone can understand the differences that you speak of.

    Islam is one; and despite this we have been forewarned of the emergence of 73 sects within Islam, each calling to themselves. However, Islam is safeguarded by it’s sources and everytime another strays from the defined path, it is easy to being them back to the sources and judge according to them. This is something you will not find in any other religion because none have the original sources to go back to.

    In conclusion, the Islam that was 1430+ years ago is the same Islam now, time and location and space may change, but the fundamentals creed and actions and methodologies do not change. There are secondary and tertiary levels that are dynamic enough to fit any place and time and space, it is this that is subject to debate and concensus.

    See you in the next thread :^)

  117. #117 by ChinNA on Saturday, 26 July 2008 - 8:23 am

    Dialog vs face-to-face talk.

    What is face to face talk if it is not a dialog. Can dialog happen without face to face talk?

    Perhaps in a dialog, the parties sat with their backs facing each other but they still talk. Audible but not facing each other.

    Can a face-to-face talk happen with a dialog? Yes, it is possible when there is a disjointed topics being discussed. For example, one party talks about going to the moon while the other party talking the merits of fishing.

    To me, in a regular world, face-to-face talk and dialog is the same.

    Someone please enlighten me how the Islamic world differentiate between dialog and face-to-face talk. I need to understand Islam better before I reach any conclusion.

  118. #118 by ChinNA on Saturday, 26 July 2008 - 8:24 am

    opps typo: should have been – Can a face-to-face talk happen without a dialog?

  119. #119 by lopez on Saturday, 26 July 2008 - 8:28 am

    some people like it fried, some like it steam, some grilled, yet some dont bother at all,

    it is world of choices, you are responsible for your own actions.

    Not one values system is better than the other, it is the millenium, we all adapt , it is natural except if you chose not to do so, and it is your own reason for not doing so.

    your beliefs and values system is not better than others, keep it to yourself, dont preach to people who do not wish to accept, it can be seen that there is no use of force but only raping, let others do it their ways, please respect other people’s cultures and values system

    incidentally it appears the word Hypocrisy came into existed just after the idea of belief or religion came into being .

    Man make things to to cure himself in mind and body
    For the mind he made religion to cure his non stopping worries and concerns that his brain generates
    He create cultures and value system to guide social behavior and conduct
    But in society of human beings they are wide disparity in IQ and well being.
    So it is never surprising to have so many variants in many things , particularly in interpretation of learnings and thought brought down from ancestors, some cultures have written them down while some dont, some dont even have a written text and only based on verbally within each other family cluster.
    So what we see and read and listen are versions of certain people or groups of people. And the writings are explanation of thoughts and observations or findings of the writer.
    Those who know the language of the ancient texts interprets them for us to know, so it is an interpretation of a language base on the intepreter’s explanation.
    Depending on ones IQ and knowledge in understanding and reasoning, we can have many many versions from the same texts.
    We have been fooled….those guys could be laughing at us.

  120. #120 by yhsiew on Saturday, 26 July 2008 - 3:23 pm

    If PAS continues to have dialogs with UMNO, eventually it will lose support from non-Malays. PAS should be mindful that its good showing in the 12th general election was partly due to support from non-Malays.

  121. #121 by shamshul anuar on Saturday, 26 July 2008 - 6:49 pm

    Dear Yhsiew,
    Many thanks for your view. Perhaps you are not aware that vast majority of Malays want the talk to be started and better still , a success.

    If you ask any Malay, you will be given answers that there are excessive politicking between these 2 parties. This is damaging the interests of Malays.

    I am neither PAS or UMNO member. But certainly I never fail to notice that never ending arguments between them actually weaken the Malays. And I must tell you that PAS members whom I talk to are actually upset about mega pig farm project in Selangor. The truth is that they are very embarrased as PAS is part of Selangor Govt.

    Contrary to what you said, PAS support among the Chinese is not that substantial, although it shows some growth. PAS derives support mainly from Malay community. The same goes to UMNO. Both these parties can stand on their own.

    It is other parties such as MCA, MIC , Gerakan that will collapse without Malay support. As for DAP, its anti Malay attitude is actually known as its “hallmark”.


  122. #122 by shamshul anuar on Saturday, 26 July 2008 - 6:55 pm

    Dear Undergrad2,

    Yes. There Sunnis and there Shiites. Just like there are Catholics and there are Protestants. Bottom line is that we, mere mortals are well humans.

    I see nothing wrong in Zak _ Hamaad answer’s to you. He is just explaining about Islam to you. In Islamic tradition, Kuran is believed to be pure way back to Prophet’s day. There is no such thing as new King James Version in Islam.

    Again, I hope nobody is offended with his remark. I have high regards to religions, be they are Islam, Christianity, Hinduisn or Budhism

  123. #123 by limkamput on Saturday, 26 July 2008 - 11:51 pm

    Shamshul, you are talking bulls. I am offended already. Just remember this, your Koran is true to you and you only, ok. How true can we be if the god of Judaism has become the god of the christian and subsequently the god of Muslim. Who has more truth? I just hope you know what you are talking. But I don’t want to be as insulting as you, so I will just stop here.

  124. #124 by Godfather on Sunday, 27 July 2008 - 9:36 am


    Is stealing a sin under the Koran ? What about stealing other people’s money ?

  125. #125 by ahmadrafaei on Monday, 28 July 2008 - 10:35 am

  126. #126 by ahmadrafaei on Monday, 28 July 2008 - 10:38 am

  127. #127 by zak_hammaad on Monday, 28 July 2008 - 6:32 pm

    Looks like UMNO is happy to see the crack emerging from within Pakatan:

  128. #128 by bennylohstocks on Monday, 28 July 2008 - 10:24 pm

    If the chief had not openly called for a merger and called for a meeting on this, there will be non-stop back-door nonsense from some:


  129. #129 by shamshul anuar on Monday, 28 July 2008 - 10:36 pm

    DEar LImkamput,

    Sound that you are upset. Why? I reread my comment. In no way, I insulted you or your belief.

    As for Godfather, the answer is already known to you. I tell you what. Why do not you ask your mother whether stealing is OK. I bet the answer is the same as that of mine. Again, I fail to understand the rationale of your question.

  130. #130 by Charlie Chan on Wednesday, 30 July 2008 - 10:44 am

    Reading the latest comments of PAS leaders, they have no need to share infor with Pakatan parties. It appears odd but then again, what is the status of Pakatan’s setup, esp. taking into consideration the comparison with BN which is a formalise grouping. Perhaps, Pakatan needs to work on this aspect, if is harbours any hope of longer term grouping and meeting the aspirations of a two party political setup in this country. That may well be the issue at hand as this should negate need for one party to feel upset when any component party decides to take action seen as improper.

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