DAP challenge to MCA – KT debate on “Who should apologise – MCA or DAP?”

MCA Vice President and Health Minister, Datuk Liow Tiong Lai has said that the DAP should apologise to the Chinese voters in Kuala Terengganu for misleading them on PAS’ hudud issue.

How has DAP misled the Chinese voters in Kuala Terengganu when DAP had been consistent on the hudud issue?

It is the MCA which should apologise not only to Chinese voters in Kuala Terengganu and the country but to all Malaysian voters for its inconsistency and hypocrisy in saying one thing but doing another – for instance, in the MCA support for the UMNO declaration started by Tun Dr. Mahathir Mohamad on Sept. 29, 2001 that “Malaysia is an Islamic State”!

In the past eight years, the MCA leadership has neither retracted its support for the “929 Declaration” that “Malaysia is an Islamic State” nor demanded that the UMNO leadership retract the “929 Declaration”.

As the MCA leadership has raised the issue of “apology”, DAP challenges MCA to a debate in Kuala Terengganu on “Who should apologise – MCA or DAP?”

Is the MCA President, Datuk Seri Ong Tee Kiat prepared to lead a MCA team to a public debate on this subject in Kuala Terengganu before the by-election on Saturday – whether on Thursday or Friday?

  1. #1 by Godfather on Tuesday, 13 January 2009 - 1:33 pm

    And representing the MCA in this debate is our very own Cambridge professor Lee Wang Yen….

  2. #2 by Godfather on Tuesday, 13 January 2009 - 1:38 pm

    Ask Ong Ta Kut what happened to the second report on the Port Klang Free Trade Zone fiasco. Is it with UMNO for their approval before releasing it to the public ?

  3. #3 by k1980 on Tuesday, 13 January 2009 - 1:50 pm

    Ong Ta Kut may be forced to step down as MCA Pres should umno lost in KT because he was incapable of bringing in the Chinese votes

  4. #4 by Kelvenho on Tuesday, 13 January 2009 - 1:53 pm

    I don’t think MCA is brave enough to debate the 929 declaration.
    It will only make MCA a fool in front of the KT electorate.
    What a laughing stock the MCA is.

  5. #5 by pulau_sibu on Tuesday, 13 January 2009 - 2:09 pm

    only liars are afraid of Hudud. They afraid they will be the first one to be punished. The real gold should not be afraid of fire!

  6. #6 by ktteokt on Tuesday, 13 January 2009 - 2:14 pm

    Who said “Aye!” to Hudud/Islamic state declared by UMNO? I remembered Chew Mei Fun was one of those who said she supported Islamic state by UMNO! So, MCA is turning back and asking if DAP supports Hudud? Clean up your backyard before you speak!!!

  7. #7 by ch on Tuesday, 13 January 2009 - 2:25 pm

    Dear All,

    I have just returned to visit this site and was reading the few series of article on Gaza and decided to pen a few lines here as I felt the comments from me may be inter-related. Everyone would agree that God created all human beings equal. It is mankind who over the centuries started to discriminate themselves along racial lines and more recently religious lines and soon you may well see discrimination along nationalistic lines. The soon to retire champion of the United States is none other than George W. Bush. He may be hated but one thing he hasn’t been repentant is the actions taken to ensure the security of his beloved country. Similarly the champions of each race and religion more often than not, put their interests ahead of anything else. In other words, race and religion are being used as vehicles and weapons for their own selfish cause. It is because of the above cause that the positions and stands taken by each and every one of these champions are never permanent. Today we hear and read pages of articles in the newspaper and other mass medias alike that the Chinese are being actively courted in KT. That is because of two simple reasons i.e. they took a stand that caused the outcome of the March 2008 election to be not favourable to BN and they are the deciding factor in KT. But there are also fear that they may be on the verge of changing their stand now which in this case may influence the outcome of KT election. Similarly there are numerous issues being picked up by particularly the Indian representatives from PKR that they are disapointed with the management style of Tan Sri Khalid Ibrahim as well as their community were being overlooked. But why the change of stand now? Disunity is the simple cause of self interest, particularly by those leaders or champions. So, you may agree now that these champions are champions of their own cause. Some say that never in the recorded Chinese history that they are united but I felt it is not that the Chinese is less united but they are more enterprising and consequently more susceptible to change in stand and position. On paper the Ketuanan Melayu appears to be a way to secure certain advantages of one race over other races. This is the “advantage” that God didn’t create in the first place. The human race in Malaysia over the decades had created a situation for the need for the Malays to be preferentially treated. But we are now moving along the lines where there are people abusing this advantages for their own selfish gains.

    The Indians are facing the same issue here as well. They are where they are now simply because their champions had championed for some other causes over the decades. Same can be said on the punch that Dr. Yap of Dong Jio Zong got from the man. In Singapore, a MP was torched by a bystander when the latter was not selected to receive a CNY goodies.

    So, watch out for these “champions”. There are many of them lurking around.

  8. #8 by wanderer on Tuesday, 13 January 2009 - 2:54 pm

    YB Lim one can easily anticipate the answer, it will be negative response from MCA. Where have they the marbles to face the Chinese community with truth. These are political opportunists and beggars. They are stray dogs, sniffing around all the time for crumbs, all one needs to do is give a shout, they will run away with their tails between their legs.
    Perhaps, we should ask MCA, for 200 years, they could’nt convert TOL holders in KT kampong cina to Freehold titles. Talking is free, action is valued.

  9. #9 by monsterball on Tuesday, 13 January 2009 - 3:23 pm

    What else you you expect MCA to say…to please their master…UMNO…to stay as favourte lapdogs?
    Go read MCA Ong Tee Kiat..advising small businesses to avoid loan sharks and go borrow from banks.
    Does he know banks demands collaterals? Does he know what is collateral? Can he convinced UMNO to force banks to offer any Tom Dick or Harry …with proven 5 years in business..loans up to a maximum of RM100,000 without collaterals….and 70% quota given to Malaysian Chinese….5% to Indians and rest to Malays?
    Does he know..if RM100,000 is approved..it can be converted to be RM200,000 for L.C. facilities. Does he know what is L.C. and T.R.??
    I recalled one MCA Minister of Labour …appointed as one..for few months…and start labelling bosses as heartless to workers…….knowing next to nothing about Labour laws.
    Loan sharks never force anyone to lend from them.
    And without loan sharks….hundred of thousands food stall hawkers…cannot have capital to start their businesses.
    Since almost 90% are comprising of Malaysian Chinese…..have you ever hear…MCA find a formula to help these poor Malaysians of their own kind?
    Loan sharks lend with no collaterals…except home address and MyCard details.
    Borrowers KNOW the very high interest all along. So they don’t pay up…what do you expect loan sharks do? They are gangsters and with gangsters attitudes. All know that.
    I do not support loan sharks one bit….but one must give credit to one..when credit is due…..not keep branding them as terrible buggers.
    So many lend from loan sharks…became very rich and successful. Instead of paying loans…they gamble it away……every night.
    So to sum up….MCA keep talking with no experiences..with no real love and care for their own race…but with sole purpose to please UMNO.

  10. #10 by jus legitimum on Tuesday, 13 January 2009 - 3:36 pm

    Do not waste time with MCA.They are hypocrites,opportunists,position cum title and wealth seekers.They can be worse than prostitutes who sell not only their souls but also the whole community that they claim to represent.They are eunuchs because they have lost their balls and they can run away with their tails between their legs.

  11. #11 by cintanegara on Tuesday, 13 January 2009 - 3:58 pm

    The different ideologies between PAS and DAP would be the obstacles for them to be coexisted….Assuming PR took over the Government, will PR run Malaysia with multiple ideologies and policies?

    I came across several comments in this blog, suggesting DAP to put aside the Hudud issue and focus more on how to expel the BN. The Hudud issues are to be discussed when PR has become the Government….. ..Perhaps or maybe, this is DAP’s typical way of thinking….more on short term rather than strategic long term…..Will the rakyat risk their future for this kind of coalition?

  12. #12 by i_love_malaysia on Tuesday, 13 January 2009 - 4:03 pm

    BANK of MCA is going to be opened soon…AKAN DATANG!!!
    With half a million members deposting all their saving there, it can give softloans to all without collaterals !!! Loan sharks beware!!!

  13. #13 by k1980 on Tuesday, 13 January 2009 - 4:12 pm

    BANK of MCA will most likely be like the MCA-run illegal cash deposit-taking co-ops of the mid 1980s. Put in your money and watch it disappear

  14. #14 by rockdaboat on Tuesday, 13 January 2009 - 4:34 pm

    Why is MCA keep harping on the hudud issues?

    I will choose hudud over MCA.

  15. #15 by madguyho on Tuesday, 13 January 2009 - 5:12 pm

    MCA just barking like a mad dog over a mole hill. Just wonder why they are so scared about hudud? Maybe because they afraid their head might be chopped off once we have hudud law. I’m a Chinese, but I’m not scare of hudud because I don’t steal. In fact I think hudud should be implemented to chop off the head of those corrupted ministers, the legs of Mat Rempits and the arms of corrupted civil servants.

    Have you ever wonder China is still practice hudud, 1 bullet for whoever are convicted.

  16. #16 by Jeffrey on Tuesday, 13 January 2009 - 5:44 pm

    Don’t waste time on debate : what’s the use of it?

    On MCA leadership’s acquiescence with Dr Mahathir’s “929 Declaration” that “Malaysia is an Islamic State”, MCA will use former MCA president Dr Ling Liong Sik’s response: “My simplistic thinking….if we look at a rose, being English-educated, I’d call it a rose. But (the) Chinese-educated call it mei-gui (in Mandarin), a Malay friend calls it bunga mawar and (it is) roja in Tamil. Yet, it is … a rose.“Similarly, an apple is round, has seeds, is crunchy (and) has a stalk, but some people call it ‘apple’, some call it ping gor…the fruit can be described in many, many ways.” Then it will go on offensive : except for national chairperson Karpal Singh, and YB Kit, DAP is generally keeping quiet about PAS’s avowed agenda and when PKR adviser Anwar (Ibrahim) openly supports hudud’s selectively application to Muslims, all (except Karpal Singh) made any noise.

    Whatever MCA attacks DAP, it will be in a way neutralised when dominant partner UMNO’s deputy president (Najib) calls PAS “kluk Klek” a local Terengganu dialect for “flip flop” because PAS’s supposedly bends over backwards to accommodate its secular coalition partner (esp DAP) (be careful of insinuation, bend backwards???) Which also means that if as what UMNO says, PAS is “kluk Klek” and bends backward for DAP, what is there for DAP to bother about what PAS says?

    At the end of the day – sad or good, it is hard to say – different people will, depending on their agendas and beliefs and politics, call this country by different names : for some at one end of the continuum it is an Islamic state in transition to a theocratic one and some at the other end of the continuum, a secular state by constitution, whilst there are also some, a “rojak” state (sorry, OrangRojak, no offence intended) being hybrid between the two polarities.

    In Kuala Terengganu by election this Sat, probably none of the above charges or counter charges on Islamic state or Hudud matter : if there were really a momentum for change as evinced by last general election results of 8th March – in which in many areas if you fielded a nobody (even a monkey, if that were possible) against a BN candidate, the former even then would have a good chance – then BN is fighting an idea that has come…. You put Raja K Petra into the Terengganu fray, and the idea becomes even more vivid. He comes with no baggage of political patisanship – he belongs to no political party – and with badge of honour of being a Kamunting ISA inmate!

  17. #17 by Jeffrey on Tuesday, 13 January 2009 - 6:16 pm

    Kuala Terengganu By Election should put to simple test the main issue (over which all rest pale in comparison) : Change as pushed by Pakatan Rakyat or Status Quo as defended by UMNO led BN.

    That depends whether from rakyat’s view point or viewpoint of that segment of KT rakyat people are fed up enough to really want change because if that is what they want, then change is an idea whose time has come, and once it has come, it is very difficult for the defenders of status quo to fight and resist it. KT by election is to determine if change is really an idea whose time has come because if it is, all other issues will be relegated to lesser importance.

  18. #18 by yhsiew on Tuesday, 13 January 2009 - 6:36 pm

    Even if MCA want to debate, their big brother (UMNO) will not allow them to do so!

  19. #19 by undergrad2 on Tuesday, 13 January 2009 - 6:37 pm

    MCA gets to split some of the Chinese votes. Malay votes will be similarly split.

    It is one splitting headache. It is all about splitting hairs. Can you do it? Can you not do it? The result? A split decision. We see the emergence of a new kind of politics i.e. the poltics of the splitting minorities. Good luck.

  20. #20 by monsterball on Tuesday, 13 January 2009 - 7:43 pm

    UMNO is not MCA big brother.
    All are hypocrites ..actors and racialists.
    How can racialists be brothers?
    UMNO is and will always be MCA’s master.
    Do not be fooled by so call equal rights….in BN. All are lapdogs to UMNO.
    MCA party bearers have submitted..surrendered to be second class citizens…to UMNO..to survive in politics.
    Out of BN…MCA is dead.
    MCA is daily performing at the beck and call of UMNO….dancing to the tunes….to please UMNO.
    Everything they are saying are low class and expected..but UMNO is happy with MCA loyalty.
    MCA is at it’s lowest in reputation..dignity{if ever IT had any}..such thick skinned idiots ….talking with no guts to debate issues in a proper stage.
    MCA …..dare not …will never talk about corruptions.
    Corruptions is taboo subject.. to all BN members.

  21. #21 by mts on Tuesday, 13 January 2009 - 8:08 pm

    Anyone interest about how Malaya Constitution prepare.

    Here it is the Reid Commission Federation of Malaya Constitution Report


  22. #22 by vsp on Tuesday, 13 January 2009 - 8:34 pm

    MCA have long ago lost their marbles to UMNO. UMNO will only allow them to play dolls since they always hide underneath UMNO skirts.

    UMNO won’t treat them as jantan, to be equal to them but only as perempuan simpangan to be sodomised whenever UMNO feel like it.

  23. #23 by vsp on Tuesday, 13 January 2009 - 9:17 pm

    madguyho Says:
    MCA just barking like a mad dog over a mole hill. Just wonder why they are so scared about hudud.


    Because they are afraid that their balls will be chopped off! Since now they are only playing with dolls, they don’t need any more balls to pretend that they are jantans.

  24. #24 by shan 09 on Tuesday, 13 January 2009 - 9:24 pm

    HUDUD,HUDUD,HUDUD to frighten the non muslims.Who started the hudud game?.Before 1988 the syariah law is only limited for divorce/land distribution among the muslims.Today theSyariah law has been after the 121A amendemend in 1988 has been used to deny religious freedom.The following are the result of the amendment….
    1.Muslims are not allowed to convert.
    2 Non Muslim converts find it almost impossible to reverts to their original religion.
    3.Children under 18 yrs are automatically consider as muslims if one spouse converts.
    4.Non muslim lose the right to property if one party convert.

    This amendments are done quietly by UMNO with the support of MCA,MIC<GERAKAN.,etc when UMNO enjoys 2/3 majority.Actually this is the non criminal aspect of HUDUD.So YOU NON MULIM voters who started HUDUD.?Of course one can argue it affects only the muslims but it encourage a one way traffic system.Eventually the non muslims will become a smaller minrioty.Why MCA did not request that non muslims are equally protected by banning from converting to islamAre the Sabah&Sarawak bumiputras too are subject to this policy when they join the Malayan federation on equal religious term.SEE WHAT HAPPEN NOW….PAS is definitely not a angel but by voting PAS a 2 multi party system will eventually develop in the long term.This will become a check and balance for any form of extremism and voters will have choise. Remember islamzation policy was carried out when UMNO enjoy 2/3 majority and with the full support of MCA.

  25. #25 by shan 09 on Tuesday, 13 January 2009 - 9:48 pm

    Of course the muslims will argue that the islamic legal system will also give justice to non muslims.From observation when the non muslims who converted to islam and later decided to revert to the original religion when they refer to civil court is granted immediately.(before the amendment in 1988)This apply to the muslims as well.But today all cases are refer to Syariah court and it is not as easy as before.One is a ongoing case where a Chinese lady converts to islam to marry an Iranian in penang and decided to revert to the original religion.Just imagine it takes years to get judgment .Why religion should be such a big issue in this country. Where such a thing never happen before ?I think this happen because of UMNO trying to meddle in the federal constituion .

  26. #26 by DrChicotheGreat on Tuesday, 13 January 2009 - 9:52 pm

    DAP’s stand has always been firm. No to Hudud. Simple as that….Even if DAP explains it 1000 times, it is difficult for MCA to get it into their head. To make it more sad… the press and our local news has been covering only BN side of the story lately.

    If MCA is so great, why I don’t see the President and Vice President communicating to each other? If DAP have to keep being asked to take a stand on Hudud, MCA should also be asked what’s their stand on Ketuanan Melayu and Penternakan Babi.

    The next sad news were, Catholic’s received a shocking news on New Years day about their \The Herald\ which is a Catholic Weekly News. In addition to their current struggle to use the word \Allah\ which means GOD in Aramic (ancient language), their license for publication were approved as at 31st December 2008 with conditions i.e. Can’t use the word \Allah\ and can’t publish in Bahasa Melayu. What the hell man? What is MCA, MIC and all the other component parties of Barisan’s stand on this? How would Sabahan and Sarawakian’s who are Catholics learn about GOD then? I see this as a serious matter as it involves freedom of speech and expression. I call for the Home Minister to resign immediately for this action is embarassing.

    This is what I say, \bagi betis nak peha\. Why is the Ministry stiring the bees nest? I think it is time for us all to take it to the streets…. Rebel with a cause.

  27. #27 by shan 09 on Tuesday, 13 January 2009 - 10:03 pm

    UMNO should have introduce universal values which are acceptable to both muslims and non muslims and not try to compete with PAS on islamzation.IT looks UMNO has fall on its own trap as the non muslims begin to think that there is no more difference between UMNO and PAS on Islamic ideology.

  28. #28 by FY Lim on Tuesday, 13 January 2009 - 10:21 pm

    MCA has no marbles and is a coward. They are a bunch of liers with no principles and is not fit to represent the Chinese.

    How can they challenge DAP to a debate over hudud when they were keeping quiet like a mouse when UMNO slept with PAS to form the government then with UMNO agreeing to Hudud laws as well. Where were you MCA on your stand on this issue ? Where were you when Dr. M referred to Malaysia as an Islamic state ?
    Not even one word.

    At least DAP is consistent in their stand. Now you want to frighten the Chinese into voting BN over this issue. No way the Chinese are afraid as they are more informed now. At least DAP , PKR and PAS go into a coalition with equality , fairness and sincerity.

    Look at the PR govt. in Selangor compared to the BN. During BN’s rule the Hindu temples were demolished and yet not one component parties including MIC and MCA make noise. Is this the kind of equality and religious freedom BN including MCA is practising ?

    Do not try to hoodwink the people !

  29. #29 by cintanegara on Tuesday, 13 January 2009 - 10:57 pm

    PR’s landslide victory in the last GE was just a fluke. Not because PR has transformed into a strong party but it was merely due to rakyat’s not in favor towards present PM & the hike price of consumers’ goods. Other issue contributes to BN’s lost was the choice of election candidates. In particular,many incumbents were dropped as in favour of new faces.

    Just be patience, wait & see, as the show hasn’t started yet. On the day Dato Seri Najib become PM, Malaysian political climate will instantly change. The perpetual & undivided support from majority will clearly be seen…….Next GE, at least 3 out of 5 states, are in the grasps of BN…..BN will then sustain its two third majority in Parliament…….

  30. #30 by monsterball on Tuesday, 13 January 2009 - 11:32 pm

    Yip!…cintanegera is trying so hard to get UMNO’s attentions.
    What will one not do….to advertise and sell his soul to the devil.
    He keeps on posting outdated informations…spoken by BN.
    Actually ..he is brainless….nameless and balless.
    This is an MCA creature..not fully grown yet….just an idiotic doggie.
    I like the words….”landslide victory” by RP…..written by him.
    Did he learn the word.. tsunami?
    He keeps coming back…..as his backside quite itchy.
    He needs spanking….to make him feel good.

  31. #31 by A true Malaysian on Tuesday, 13 January 2009 - 11:42 pm

    KT voters, want to vote?

    Click here http://poll.pollcode.com/ITSg

  32. #32 by monsterball on Tuesday, 13 January 2009 - 11:43 pm

    Can you believe it!!
    He is predicting 3 States out of 5 under PR….goes back to BN.
    Just talk like that…..with no supporting facts.
    hi….cintanegera…why do you like to make a fool of yourself….day in day out?
    Is that RM200 per post …paid to you …true?
    Can you predict…when will the next tsunami …strike Malaysia?
    More than 60% Malaysians know exactly when..do you?

  33. #33 by shamshul anuar on Wednesday, 14 January 2009 - 12:07 am

    Dear Monsterball,

    There you go again. Blaming UMNO for everything . I know you hate this. Yes. You are right. UMNO is dominant in Malaysia . It is recognised as the most dominant in Malaysia. It is treated as the dominant party in Malaysia. And it behaves like a dominant party.

    Nothing wrong about that. Even if UMNO does not cry out loud to be treated as dominant, it is accorded that respect. Why? Simple. It has the most number of seats among BN coalition.

    UMNO earns the dominance through election. Only a moron would surrender his dominance.There is nothing embarassing about being dominant. In more than 50 years years of controlling the politics it never sideline the Chinese. In fact, it accord them the mind boggling privilege of separate school. That is unheard in other parts of the world.

    That is of course is a matter of practicality. Since DAP, ultra Chinese education board see that studying under one roof among races will reduce their “chineseness”, and since MCA dares not criticizes Dong Zhong, UMNO accords them such a privilege. However, being ungrateful lot, DAP will time again play racial card to scare Chinese on their rights that UMNO has intention to snatch it from them.

    As for DAP, why cry out loud about Hudud when it courts PAS? Surely Kit Siang knows PAS well to understand that PAS will not renounce its battle cry( not so much for love of religion but using or rather abusing religion for political gain).

    As for non Malays, Get real. Malaysia is not a secular country like Australia or USA. Neither it is a theocratic state like Iran. At independence itself, Malays idea of a country is that it must not be a secular like USA or Australia. This is due to simple fact that there is no such thing as separation of religion from state in Islam the way it is so common in Western world.

    As Islam is the official religion and Malays being the original inhabitors, Malays feel nobody can deny them their right to practise their religion and also incorporate Islamic values into state affair.

    Get real, DAP. No Malay Muslim will say that Malaysia is a secular country . Asking Malay politician to accept Malaysia being secular is tantamount to asking to ask DAP to renounce Chinese Malaysia coated behind nice to be heard “Malaysian Malaysia” concept.

  34. #34 by Onlooker Politics on Wednesday, 14 January 2009 - 1:20 am

    Malaysia is like Israel

    Helen Ang

    Popular author Benny Morris, who is professor of Middle Eastern history at Ben-Gurion University, wrote an opinion-editorial in the New York Times on Monday titled Why Israel feels threatened on the challenges Israel is currently facing, including fraught relations with its minorities.

    Allow me to compare Morris’ description with our own situation here. There is no exact parallel as we’re not in a war zone but Malaysia is somewhat like Israel in some ways.

    The national policies of both countries contain elements of apartheid which serve to segregate communities. Israel is constitutionally a Jewish state in nature and its founding document reflects a race-preoccupied social contract too. The Declaration of Independence mentions only the history, culture and collective memory of the Jewish people; too bad for the Arabs who form one-fifth of Israel’s population.

    Israel soldier Sayaret GolaniIt’s “law of return” allows Jewish immigration from any part of the world and over many years Israel has received among others, African Jews and Indian Jews plus an influx of Soviet Jews when the old USSR disintegrated.

    On the other hand, an Arab who is an Israeli citizen cannot just as easily bring home his Palestinian bride from West Bank. Compare with Malaysia’s permanent residency requirements for foreign spouses of the different races.

    In Israel, its religious law halacha mandates conversion to Judaism in mixed marriages. In Malaysia, anyone marrying a Malay must convert to Islam. On matters relating to birth, death and marriage, an Israeli cannot turn to a civil court, meaning he has no secular recourse in these areas. Neither does the Malay who is governed by Syariah.

    Restaurants, factories and public buildings are obliged to adhere to the Kosher practices of Jews, and public space are Judaisised under state policy. In Malaysia, we adhere to halal practices and additionally in schools, and public space are Islamised.

    Israel’s law recognises and protects Jewish holy sites alone. Cemeteries, seminaries and religious institutions are built for Jews but not for Arabs. Palestinian legal aid organisation Adalah, in a report titled “Institutionalised Discrimination”, said during the 1990s typically 98 percent of the Religious Affairs Ministry budget was allocated for Jewish houses of worship and religious services.

    Need I elaborate on Malaysia’s practices in this respect?

  35. #35 by Onlooker Politics on Wednesday, 14 January 2009 - 1:22 am

    Malaysia is like Israel

    Helen Ang

    Why Israel/Malays feel threatened?

    With apology and thanks to Prof Morris for my borrowing his writing, let’s explore the ideas below.

    Morris on Israel’s siege mentality: “First, the Arab and wider Islamic worlds…have never truly accepted the legitimacy of Israel’s creation and continue to oppose its existence.”

    Some Malays regret my Chinese forefathers coming, and do not accept the full legitimacy of my presence – hence my second-class citizenship – while willing to grant a first generation Muslim from Indonesia or the Philippines bumiputera privileges.

    Morris writes: “Second, public opinion in the West (and in democracies, governments can’t be far behind) is gradually reducing its support for Israel as the West looks askance at the Jewish state’s treatment of its Palestinian neighbors and wards. The Holocaust is increasingly becoming a faint and ineffectual memory and the Arab states are increasingly powerful and assertive.”

    Public opinion in the West is gradually looking askance at Malaysia’s treatment of its minorities. The countries of origin of these minorities are increasingly powerful and assertive; Indian Malaysians revolted with Hindraf and Chinese Malaysians are grumbling louder.

    Morris writes: “But the attack will not solve the basic problem posed by a Gaza Strip populated by 1.5 million impoverished, desperate Palestinians who are ruled by a fanatic regime and are tightly hemmed in by fences and by border crossings controlled by Israel and Egypt.”

    The verbal attacks by Umno ministers and their agents on Hindraf supporters, as well as the authorities punishing the movement and its leaders – and even Jerit cyclists – will not solve the basic problem posed by a Tamil underclass of impoverished, desperate Indians who are ruled by a fascist-like regime and tightly hemmed in by state-erected social barriers, a lack of upward mobility and exclusion from affirmative action programmes.

  36. #36 by Onlooker Politics on Wednesday, 14 January 2009 - 1:24 am

    Malaysia is like Israel

    Helen Ang

    Sense of wall closing in

    Malaysia’s existence is not threatened but the recent spate of demonstrations and fiery rhetoric on Malay special rights indicate how some insecure folks see their minority neighbours as existential threats.

    Morris writes: “The fourth immediate threat to Israel’s existence is internal. It is posed by the country’s Arab minority. Over the past two decades, Israel’s 1.3 million Arab citizens have been radicalised, with many openly avowing a Palestinian identity and embracing Palestinian national aims.”

    a. Radicalised: Have the Indians been radicalised by Hindraf? If you read or listen to only the mainstream, especially Malay mass media and official channels spewing government propaganda, what would you think?

    Have the Chinese been radicalised by March 8 (Date of General Election 2008)? If a Malay reads or listens only to the official mouthpieces, what would he think?

    b. Identity: Undeniably, Chinese Malaysians over the past two decades have become increasingly sinicised. Today between 90 and 95 percent are estimated to attend Chinese schools. The pro-ruling party Star group editor Wong Chun Wai is in favour of bringing back the English-medium of instruction and calls the Chinese educationists “racist groups”.

    c. National aims: Morris writes that Israel believes the loyalty of its Arabs lies with Palestinians rather than with the state.

    When prime minister designate Najib Razak says his government wants to assist the advancement of Malays elsewhere who are of other nationalities, what does it reveal of his racialist orientation, not to mention his low regard of our common nationality?

    And what about those who want to put immigrant-squatters on a boat “balik Tongsan” (Go Back China) and “balik Kalinga” (Go Back India)? What does this popular demand tell about that Umno-type mindset?

    Morris writes that “most Jews see the Arab minority as a potential fifth column”.

    If Israeli Arabs are alleged to identify with their country’s enemies Hamas and Hezbollah, some Malays accuse Chinese Malaysians of siding with Singapore and another segment expects the Chinese to cheer for China should our two national badminton teams or players meet.

  37. #37 by Onlooker Politics on Wednesday, 14 January 2009 - 1:34 am

    Malaysia is like Israel

    Helen Ang

    Unreal reflection in the mirror

    Demographics offer another interesting comparison and contrast. The birth rates for Israeli Arabs are among the highest in the world with four or five children per family, according to Morris. He writes: “If present trends persist, Arabs could constitute the majority of Israel’s citizens by 2040 or 2050.”

    Minorities are dwindling rapidly against the Malay prolific annual birth rate and this coupled with emigration and religious conversion will see the numerical ratio of bumiputera at a most satisfactory Muslim majority sooner rather later.

    In Malaysian blogosphere now, there is the usual schism. The Malay-Muslim voices have been unequivocally pro-Palestinian. The non-Malay, non-Muslim voices have tended to be more accommodating of Israel’s self-justification.

    Predictably, there was a protest against Israel at the American embassy at Kuala Lumpur yesterday and anger over the deaths in Gaza – “several hundred Hamas fighters were killed” says Morris but he omits to mention the civilian casualties.

    During the recent terrorist attack (right) on Mumbai, similarly, several hundred Indian security forces, civilians and foreigners in total were killed and injured.

    Did the Malaysians, who are now bristling at Israel, earlier show an outpouring of rage for the dead in Mumbai? Did the ones chanting slogans at the American embassy extend condolences to the family of the Indian Malaysian victim?

    Yesterday, it was reported that 400 people were slaughtered in Christmas massacres in the northeastern Democratic Republic of Congo – burned alive in their homes, villagers decapitated or killed with machetes, axes and clubs. Where is the Malaysian outcry?

    Malaysia is akin to Israel in insisting the international community should view the country just as the wonderful, fair-minded democracy it miraculously manages to see itself in the smoked mirror.

  38. #38 by chengho on Wednesday, 14 January 2009 - 1:46 am

    Yes let have the debate between MCA vs DAP can someone set the term of reference for the debate and in what language?

  39. #39 by Onlooker Politics on Wednesday, 14 January 2009 - 1:50 am

    “Who should apologise – MCA or DAP?”

    After reading the article contributed by Helen Ang, it is crystal clear that MCA is the sole Chinese ethnic-based party in Malaysia which should make an open apology to all the Non-Bumiputeras in Malaysia for having done such a notorious disservice to the Non-Bumiputeras after 52 years’ holding the Minister’s posts in the government cabinet.

    As a remedial action, MCA should dissolve its party and get all its members to join DAP as soon as possible!

  40. #40 by rockdaboat on Wednesday, 14 January 2009 - 7:23 am

    cintanegara vs cintanegara

    “PR’s landslide victory in the last GE was just a fluke. Not because PR has transformed into a strong party but it was merely due to rakyat’s not in favor towards present PM & the hike price of consumers’ goods. Other issue contributes to BN’s lost was the choice of election candidates. In particular,many incumbents were dropped as in favour of new faces.
    Just be patience, wait & see, as the show hasn’t started yet. On the day Dato Seri Najib become PM, Malaysian political climate will instantly change. The perpetual & undivided support from majority will clearly be seen…….Next GE, at least 3 out of 5 states, are in the grasps of BN…..BN will then sustain its two third majority in Parliament…….” – by cintanegara

    “Mandela, Plain statements without providing adequate solid evidence to substantiate and justify your points are entirely useless. Here’s another example of excessive comment from you
    Our dear friend AhPek for instance, appears to be very keen on amassing statistical data to justify and support his points. However, he never revealed the source and how the information was obtained I believe most of us here are educated people and interested in reliable source of information . Perhaps next time, he will include the details for our reference and perusal.
    BTW, AhPek, Many thanks for your time and willingness to forward ‘facts‘ about TDM. My deepest apologies…… it is against my principles and ethics., to deal with something, unless they are validated.” – by cintanegara on January 11th at 23:58.07 in another thread.


  41. #41 by k1980 on Wednesday, 14 January 2009 - 9:05 am

    The nasty effects of NEP on a society can be seen in the Russia-Ukraine gas dispute. For years upon years, the former Soviet Republic of Ukraine has been buying gas from Russia at subsidized rates. However, when Ukraine tried to join NATO, the Russians imposed market rates for its gas supply. Now the Ukrainians, deprived of the NEP of the good old days, are unable to cough up the cash to pay for the gas. And other European countries are freezing this winter because the Russians has cut off gas supplies to them, claiming that Ukraine has been stealing gas from the pipeline.

  42. #42 by Bigjoe on Wednesday, 14 January 2009 - 9:29 am

    This campaign is coming down to the wire and PR has the upper hand with the Chinese voters. It make sense for MCA and Gerakan to be as underhanded as possible i.e, hit below the belt harder and harder. Its why they won’t take up your challenge – that would be rising up to a challenge which the eunuchs don’t know how to do when backed against the wall.

    If DAP can keep rising above the hit-below-the-belt ways of a desperate MCA and Gerakan, like this kind of response, KT is as good as PR. DAP and PR should not make a mistake of dropping their standards.

    Sdr. Lim is showing the way even as the eunuchs get dirtier and dirtier in their ways…

  43. #43 by Jeffrey on Wednesday, 14 January 2009 - 11:36 am

    It is question interesting of who – MCA or DAP – should apologise to the Chinese voters in Kuala Terengganu in the context of who is misleading on Hudud issue.

    According to Malaysiakini’s report Jan 13, 09 5:17pm :

    ‘A religious court in Pahang has sentenced a man and a woman to six strokes of the cane for drinking alcohol, in a rare decision in the multicultural nation. Mohamad, a 38-year-old father of four, and 22-year-old waitress Noorazah Baharuddin, were separately found drinking beer in pubs in that state last year. A third accused, part-time model Kartika Sari Dewi Shukarno, a 32-year-old Singaporean permanent resident, has also been accused of the same offence and faces a decision on May 4. The New Straits Times said the Pahang Syariah High Court handed down the sentences Monday and fined the pair RM5,000 each. “The caning is to shame them and should be done at any of the prisons in the country,” judge Abdul Rahman Yunus was quoted as saying by the daily in his ruling. He said the sentence was intended as a deterrent to other Muslims, who make up the majority of the population in Malaysia. The New Straits Times said this was the second time such a sentence has been handed down, after the same judge sentenced two Muslim brothers to six strokes of the cane in 2005 when they were caught drinking. It is to remind the Muslims not to drink,” he told AFP.’

    Now, drinking alcohol is one of Hudud offenses. These offenders committed the offence and were tried by court in Pahang whose state government is controlled by Barisan Nasional (BN). Isn’t it true that Hudud is already implemented in Pahang under BN’s administration already?

    Whilst the DAP is still arguing or silent about PAS’s objectve to introduce Hudud, the BN, in which MCA is partner, appears to have already implemented Hudud in Pahang within the BN’s Islamic State per TDM’s 929 Declaration that MCA kept silent!

    So please ask ex- MCA president Tun Dr Ling Liong Sik whether the “the rose is still a rose” by wahtever name it is called or the rose has become a thorn – and ask MCA Vice President and Health Minister, Datuk Liow Tiong Lai (LTL) who is really is misleading the people – when even as he is accusing the DAP of acquiescing/conniving with PAS’s intent to implement Hudud, the MCA has alreadyacquiesced and connived with Hudud’s actual implementation in Pahang already!

  44. #44 by Jeffrey on Wednesday, 14 January 2009 - 11:54 am

    Well it true Pahang under BN has not yet implemented the full range of Hudud punishments for examples capital punishments – by sword/crucifixion (for highway robbery with homicide), by stoning (for zina’ when the offenders are mature, married Muslims) or amputation of hands or feet (for theft and highway robbery without homicide) but it has already “started” with the first step of flogging for drinking by Muslims.

  45. #45 by OrangRojak on Wednesday, 14 January 2009 - 11:59 am

    Jeffrey – what is the Constitutional position on Syariah courts? I understood, from what you last posted, that civil matters pertaining to Muslims were automatically the domain of the Syariah court (rather than the Syariah Court being an alternative, as I mistakenly believed). But the consumption of alcohol isn’t a civil offence, is it? I know nothing of Syariah law, but I imagine this must be Court versus defendants. Exactly how far does the Syariah court’s jurisdiction extend under the present Constitution? Is there the possibility (I’m asking a purely technical question) of a person appealing to a Constitutional court in a criminal(?) case such as this one?
    I have to reiterate my position on Hudud – if all the people in your Nth-hand story are devout Muslims, and whipping is what the defendants require in order to satisfy their demand for free expression of religious faith, then my ‘liberal’ view is that it could be viewed as wrong for a constitution (of any country) to prohibit it. A foreigner coming to Malaysia could be surprised to find that they are to be subjected to corporal punishment for drinking alcohol when others around them are permitted, purely on the grounds of assigned (or even professed) faith. Are Singaporeans assigned faiths by their government? Is it officially recorded?
    The fact that a foreigner is ‘accused of consuming alcohol’ should be of more concern to Malaysians worried about their tourism industry than letters about dirty sheets. This is an example of the kind of reason why my European friends arrange to meet me in Thailand, Cambodia or Vietnam, when I live 40 minutes from KLIA.

  46. #46 by FY Lim on Wednesday, 14 January 2009 - 12:05 pm

    Whatever it is, hudud is part of Islamic laws. Syariah laws are also islamic laws and they apply to Muslims only. Look at the case of the syariah law implementation in Pahang – a non PR state and the syariah court imposed caning on Muslims consuming alcohol.

    The MCA is a party to the BN coalition in Pahang and what have they to say on this. Choose to keep quiet !.

    At the same time can challenge DAP to declare their stand on hudud. This challenge is just to frighten the Chinese in Terengganu to vote against PAS.

    MCA had been a party to PAS/BN rule in Kelantan . Why did’nt MCA resigned from the government coalition as it stand is against PAS implementing islamic law including hudud law in the state ?

    Make your stand clear MCA. You are talking to a bunch of well-informed non-Malays who wish to see equality , fairness and good governance and not arrogance, bully and racial and religious extremism in Malaysia and not docile Chinese and Indians.

  47. #47 by NOT DUMB MALAYSIAN on Wednesday, 14 January 2009 - 12:07 pm


    The bankrupt MALAYSIAN CRASTRATED SOCIETY is bankrupt of any meaningful issues to improve the lot of the people especially ate 9,0d00 Chinese voters in KT. First they raise the Race Issues. When the Chinese are not buying, they now moved to the Bogeyman of Bogeyman of PAS HUD. The non-Muslims have for decades been under a PAS government for decades and they do not fear Hudud. The Trengganu folks have for a few years been under PAS and they are not scared of Hudud. So is MCA challenging DAP to state their stand on Hudud. All Malaysians are aware of he innumerable declaration by DAP on Hudud. Why can is MCA raising this, now? Because they have NOTHING TO CONTRIBUTE. As Running Dogs of UMNO, they will have to behave more muslims than the Muslims. We are getting to the stage of our political development that ALL MALAYSIANS HATE THE MCA.

  48. #48 by k1980 on Wednesday, 14 January 2009 - 12:13 pm

  49. #49 by OrangRojak on Wednesday, 14 January 2009 - 12:14 pm

    MCA should dissolve its party and get all its members to join DAP as soon as possible!
    Yes! Because what DAP really needs to distinguish them from other political parties in Malaysia is incompetent racists!
    … (as monsterball would say)

  50. #50 by NOT DUMB MALAYSIAN on Wednesday, 14 January 2009 - 12:20 pm


    Most pundits in Malaysian are of the view that the MCA, outside their propaganda press within their control, they do not have the balls to accept an open debate.

    Of course, they will pin this down to one or the other reason – purely of their own invention. Never in our history is a political party purporting to champion the interest MORE HATED THAN THE MALAYSIAN CRQASTRATED SOSCIETY by the very people they were supposed to champion.

  51. #51 by NOT DUMB MALAYSIAN on Wednesday, 14 January 2009 - 12:23 pm

    Just the mention of the letters MCA mkes me puke.

  52. #52 by Yee Siew Wah on Wednesday, 14 January 2009 - 12:28 pm

    This Datuk L bum from MCA is just one of the lapdog of UMNO. He is not fit to represent the rakyat especially the chinese community. All MCA politicians are where they are today is UMNO just put them there as showpiece. They are just a bunch of hangons and blood suckers.
    I would completely ignore all these MCA bums in whatever they do. They are just history as far as rakyat is concern. Lets move on and ensure a BIG BIG victory for PKR in the coming KT by-election.

  53. #53 by Jeffrey on Wednesday, 14 January 2009 - 2:07 pm

    This is in response to OrangRojak’s comments Today at 11: 59.49.

    Federal laws, which are secular laws (based on common laws) including both civil and criminal matters, are sanctioned by Malaysian Constitution.

    However the same Constitution allows individual state assemblies/governments to make their own Sharia laws on aspects of Muslims’ personal laws (eg marriage, inheritance and apostasy), which in the last 20-30 years have since extended to Sharia criminal laws, for examples, laws against immorality (“Khalwat”, “Zina”), and now drinking as well…

    Interestingly enacting Sharia criminal laws is not the sole preserve of state governments : it has been extended to Federal Territories of KL & Labuan under Federal Control as well.

    My sense is that the states’ promulgators/makers/legislators of their respective Sharia have quite a free hand, as are also the Sharia Courts/judges in interpreting/developing the Sharia Law. (I don’t expect that a particular criminal Sharia law enacted by a particular state is necessarily on all fours with that of another, though they will most certainly share a commonality of precepts).

    The only constraint in our Constitution to an otherwise unbridled Shariah law making or enforcement is Article 75 of the Constitution which states that a federal law shall prevail over any inconsistent state laws, including sharia laws.

    The constitutional constraint is itself subject to two practical constraints : (1) I don’t expect many subject to Sharia to challenge its validity against a “secular” constitution; and (2) the arbiters of whether such challenge is valid (ie the judges in higher apex of secular courts) have so far evinced, from their judicial pronouncements on article 121(1)A of the Constitution, a disinclination to adjudicate the conflict, if any, between the two streams of law, Sharia and secular, and have consistently deferred in favour of the former. [In a nutshell, Article 121(1A) (a constitutional amendment pushed by Dr Mahathir) provides that Secular/civil courts have no jurisdiction on any mater relating to Sharia that comes within purview of Sharia courts].

    It may be surmised from the above that:

    i. our nation maintains two parallel justice systems in the country (Sharia – Secular/Common law)

    ii. increasingly Sharia has become more and more dominant in matters governing Muslims; and

    iii. taking everything into consideration, in the continuum between a secular state at one extreme end and Islamic state at the other end, we’re already almost (in my rough estimation) 65% or more leaning on the defacto Islamic state side – which is still, by any standard, considered “moderate” if one measures against comparisons with large swathes of other Middle Eastern states.

    Again a caveat, I don’t speak as expert on such matters: just saying what I sense is the current situation.

  54. #54 by Jeffrey on Wednesday, 14 January 2009 - 2:17 pm

    What think is current situation is of couse not what I think it ought to be. But changing the status quo and veering the country more and more to defacto Islamic state is not a contribution substantially PAS ruling Kelantan state or lobbying via Pakatan Rakyat platform – but more a very pervasive, strong and powerful religious establishment at all levels of society and controlling many levers of power to able to assert their ill, objective and agenda with almost little resistence from the moderates or the government itself and certainly no resistence from non muslims who are supposed to have no say on the matter as religious matters are do not concern or apply to them.

  55. #55 by Jeffrey on Wednesday, 14 January 2009 - 2:19 pm

    typo omission – “assert their will…”

  56. #56 by OrangRojak on Wednesday, 14 January 2009 - 3:03 pm

    do not concern
    The reason I posted the transcript of the recent BBC Anwar video is my suspicion that the BBC, after giving Anwar years of positive reporting, wants something in return. The editing of that video suggests ‘Gotcha!’ to me. “Freedom of conscience” is something the BBC can use to later say “See! We were right!” or point the finger of blame at Anwar if Freedom of Conscience doesn’t materialise. I’m surprised and delighted, in a cross-my-fingers-hope-for-the-best kind of way, that Anwar said what he did.

  57. #57 by voice2009 on Wednesday, 14 January 2009 - 6:41 pm

    shamshul anuar Says:

    Get real, DAP. No Malay Muslim will say that Malaysia is a secular country

    Well, our first Prime Minister Tunku Abdul Rahman Putra Al-Haj did said Malaysia is a secular states .

    Are you suggesting to us our first Prime Minister Tunku Abdul Rahman Putra Al-Haj is not a Malay?

  58. #58 by OrangRojak on Wednesday, 14 January 2009 - 6:43 pm

    Lee Wang Yen! Shamshul Anuar requires a lesson in logic!

  59. #59 by OrangRojak on Wednesday, 14 January 2009 - 7:36 pm

    At independence itself, Malays idea of a country is that it must not be a secular like USA or Australia.
    Where did you read that? Someone from digitallibrary.my regularly spams this blog with a link to a digital copy of the report of the Reid Commission on the thinking and requirements behind the Malayan Constitution. Your rulers and leaders at the time didn’t want an Islamic state … here it is p73 under the head ‘STATE RELIGION’:

    In the memorandum submitted by the Alliance [UMNO+MCA+MIC] … “the religion of Malaysia[*?] shall be Islam. The observance of this principle … shall not imply that the State is not a Secular State.”

    *I’m a bit confused by ‘Malaysia’ – I thought that ‘Malaysia’ was the name of a later union. Is there a text transcript of this document somewhere? I’m getting fed up with scanning it page by page whenever I want to find something. If nobody knows of one, I’ll write it and … post it here, somehow.

    This is due to simple fact that there is no such thing as separation of religion from state in Islam the way it is so common in Western world.
    Well you’re wrong there. It was common in the entire world for religion to run every aspect of a nation, and there are still nations where non-Muslim religions are not yet divorced from the operation of the State. Those old interferences are the cause of inter-communal friction to this day. Secular states are common in the modern world, we were all in the Dark Ages once.

  60. #60 by undergrad2 on Wednesday, 14 January 2009 - 8:21 pm

    “This is due to simple fact that there is no such thing as separation of religion from state in Islam the way it is so common in Western world.”

    I believe Turkey is a Muslim country with a secular constitution.

  61. #61 by NOT DUMB MALAYSIAN on Wednesday, 14 January 2009 - 8:32 pm


    All they raise are non-issuest calculated to play on the real of or perceived fears of the Chinese

  62. #62 by shan 09 on Wednesday, 14 January 2009 - 9:29 pm

    shamshul anuar Says:
    UMNO earns the dominance through election. Only a moron would surrender his dominance.There is nothing embarassing about being dominant. In more than 50 years years of controlling the politics it never sideline the Chinese.

    I would say UMNO has actually played a very smart game during the 80’s by playing the divide and rule game.They know very well that the CHINESE are the king makers in SABAH and SARAWAK POLITICS.In order to get political dominance in sabah and sarawak as well as West malaysia they of course have to give certain privilages to the Chinese.
    !.Let the chinese do buisness so that they can collect big taxes from them to finance big projects like the international islamic university.
    2.Let the chinese have their mother tounge education so that they will cooperate with the muslim minrioty and the muslim will be the chife minister in this states.
    #. This helps UMNO to carry the islamic agenda such as the ammendment 121(1A) which sets the foundation for the HUDUD law later.I dont know how the chinese are so stupid in east malaysia…
    UMNO earn political dominance by certain stragety
    1. Giving citizenship to muslims to increase the muslim popoulation
    2.By manipulating the eletroal voting system to favour BN.
    3.By rejecting race based party(Dayak party) in Sarawak with a ulterior motive.(Worrid the dayaks will siege power as they are the majority over there

  63. #63 by alaneth on Wednesday, 14 January 2009 - 10:33 pm

    This is splitting the unity of the Chinese.

    DAP & MCA – stop all this nonsense & get down to work.

  64. #64 by monsterball on Thursday, 15 January 2009 - 7:50 am

    Shamshul anuar…I am not interested in your conclusion about me.
    Please do not teach a grandfather …how to suck eggs.
    What you have written..shows the backward mentality of a boastful illogical…and brainwashed Malaysian muslim.
    Go check out freedom of speeches ..freedom of rights..freedom of religion….where are they? So dominant can do as they like….control everything….steal our money by the billions…every years….divide to rule…so that Malaysians can never be united as one ..and few more…evil deeds….yet you call that dominant government rights?
    How old are you?
    I am near 70 years old and have lived through the history of our country….and right now..your so call dominant UMNO never had it so good..to be exposed…what IT is actually is….a party managed by evil corrupted…cunning politicians. They will kill UMNO..not me.
    Talk ISA..talk corruptions…talk race and religion dirty politics….talk divide and rule..all applied ..to dominate us.
    Are you blind??

  65. #65 by monsterball on Thursday, 15 January 2009 - 8:45 am

    hi Shamshul anuar..your cunning brothers in UMNO are experts like you …to put out all your points…..avoiding all that I have written for you to response.
    Do not side track main issues..by bringing out or creating other issues…to confuse Malaysians..which Mahathir is the best..in that.
    I am not a DAP member or any party member.
    Can you understand Malaysians want to be free?
    Don’t talk Malaysia cannot be this or that ..as if…UMNO owns the country and can do as they like.
    Malaysia is special and blessed….made into a Tong Sampah country…by UMNO for these..30 years.
    You see…race and religion is the forefront of all things…..played by UMNO. You are caught in the net of UMNO…to talk dominance of ruling party…and later dominance of majority race….never ever…as a Malaysian…but a Malay. Do you support Malaysian Malaysia?
    Malaysia is the only country in the developed world..where the majority is protected….continuously for more than 50 years and on going.
    Where on Earth…in any developed country…one race must embrace only one religion…no choice.
    Are we Malaysians or second class citizens..Shamshul?
    Why must it always be Malay…Chinese Indians and other races…parties in BN?
    Are you a racialist?
    Come on…Shamshul..UMNO is the ring leader….to separate us.
    You like that? If so..why?
    You see..majority…ordinary Malaysians talk like me…not like you ..so smart political members of one kind or another…and I support DAP…especially Lim Kit Siang and Karpal Singh sacrificing their lives…..for a democratic and non corrupted Malaysia.
    I will treat my vote most powerful..and stop supporting DAP…if they do not keep their promises.
    Can you do that?
    Do you know how many years….these two went to jail….to free you? So many Muslims have awakened and feel grateful. Unfortunately UMNO members are grateful to UMNO for all the wrong reasons.. where their money stolen by UMNO…then give to selective UMNIO members…..creating the third kind.
    Do you know that?
    You need not reply to me…with your usual….”There you go again”
    Yes…I am for change of government.
    So don’t talk UMNO goodness to me.
    Change is long overdue.
    Don’t talk..like UMNO must rule forever.
    Tunku Ahmad Rithauddeen said…”UMNO is corrupted to the core”
    Do you know who is he…and do you agree with him? Mahathir agreed…excluding himself…….hahahahahahaha
    You UMNO die hard members…are really something else…thinking UMNO will rule forever..as if they own the country.

  66. #66 by monsterball on Thursday, 15 January 2009 - 8:54 am

    alaneth…DAP is working.
    MCA do not work..at all. It is a puppet to UMNO..a show dog..to split the chinese. …to support….divide to rule..by UMNO.
    Get the facts right.

  67. #67 by raverus on Thursday, 15 January 2009 - 9:40 am

    Denial mode + MM spin.

  68. #68 by k1980 on Thursday, 15 January 2009 - 11:18 am

    Najib tried to entice the Permatang Pauh Indian voters with scrap metal licenses during the by-election. Now will he entice the KT Chinese voters with pirated DVD licenses?

  69. #69 by shamshul anuar on Thursday, 15 January 2009 - 6:41 pm

    Dear Monsterball,

    I am not trying to teach you anything. Neither I prescribe to “holier than thou ” attitude so common in this blog. Rather, I am saying what Malays feel.

    My point is do not blame UMNO simply just because you want to fish vote. And I am saying something that is a fact. UMNO is the dominant party in BN and also in Malaysia. From the view point of Malay Muslim community, there is nothing to be embarassed about. UMNO earns its dominance the right way; that is through ballot box.

    If you cant stomach it, then try form Federal Govt. Rest assured UMNO’s dominance will come to its end. My point is why blame UMNO and chided MCA simply for accepting reality that UMNO being dominant.

    As an example, in Perak, which is more dominant among BN components, MCa or UMNO. The former has 1 seat while UMNO won 27 seats. Any standard 1 child can give you the answer.

    Similarly, although Mb of Perak is from PAS, every PAS member whom I met turn red face when I said that the real power is with DAP. All stare at me with deafening silence. Why? They themselves feel the same. Silence meaning they agree with me. But as humans with ego bigger than the Summer Palace , such fact is too painful to swallow.

    You said Malaysians wanted to be free. Free from what? UMNO accepted the election result. It is PR that does not accept election result. Why Uncle Lim or Karpal Singh did not remind Anwar that despite losing several states, BN still won at Federal level. Why the silence about asking Anwar to accept reality that UMNO led Govt still won? Why?Why the silence when Anwar trying to bribe UMNO MPs to switch allegiance to PR?

    As for DAP, you are in the mess now. Do not you know that PAS all along wanted to implement hudud( or rather playing with issue to spite UMNO). Why go along?

    Dont you know for decades, UMNO was chided for alliance with Chinese and Indians? Dont you know that PAS has been all along says that you cant vote for Non Muslims as it is haram? Not believing me? It happened just like that and used even extensively in Pasir Panjang mosques( a constituent where Nizar won).

    And believe me Dr Khir was accused of being “munafiq’ in Tmn Kosas surau simply because the holiday is on Sunday instead of Friday. Now why no same argument accorded to Nizar and MB of Kedah as the 2 states observe holiday on Sunday instead of Friday.

    Malaysia is unique in its own way. It is a country ruled by Muslims with a sizable non Muslim population. As such, implementation of Syariah law in Malaysia must not take a total copy of countries like Iran or Saudi Arabia or Qatar.

    Constitution accords rights to every Malaysian, be they are Muslim or otherwise . It however maintains vestige of old Malaya by recognising Islam as the official religion while stressing that other religions to be allowed to practised freely.

    Similarly, it recognises pomp and pageantry of Malay royalty which Malays feel as the very foundation of the country.

    What exactly is Hudud Law. It originates from Arabic “Had”. Hudud is mentioned in Kuran . What PAS fails to mention( wittingly or unwittingly) is concept of Justice which is repeated many many times in Kuran.

    Haji Hadi as then MB of Trengganu says that Hudud is only 000.1% of Islamic Law. Many non Muslims say that with the implementation of Hudud Law, many will have their hands amputated. Hudud is actually meant for prevention only.

    That is why in Qatar, Saudi arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Iran you could leave your handbags while going to ladies. Nobody will steal from you. In saudi Arabia, you can leave your shops ( be they sundry shops or gold shop, yes gold shop) unattended and perform your prayers . Nobody will steal as they understand the deterrent is parting with your limbs.

    And in Saudi Arabia, no need to be worried with snatch thief. Why? Because Hudud Law is strictly implemented.

    As one friend of mine coming back from Saudi Arabia told me, one rapist was hang in the middle of Riyadh for all to see. Seeing the hanging was a lesson for all.

    What PAs fails to see is one simple fact. Its actions is less than examplary . It continously says about Hudud law while at same time slandered UMNO leaders. The truth is that many Muslims do not trust PAS , not Hudud Law.

    As for Karpal and many non Muslims, they fail to understand one fact. That Constitution never prohibits Islamic Law from being implemented. It stresses rights of communities, justice but it is open on Islamic Law.

    When I say “Get real”, I mean that non Muslims must accept reality that Malaysia will never be like Australia or Singapore. Neither it strictly follows Saudi Arabia or Iran . It is somewhere in between.

    Non Muslims must understand that concept of secularism itself is in contradiction with Islam. Saying out loud that Malaysia is a secular country will not go well with Malay Muslim population. That is the reason why only DAP and MCA traded verbal exchange about secular state. UMNO and PAS are silent on this.

    Many people confuse Islamic Law with Hudud. Hudud is a minor part of Islamic Law. Meaning any Govt that strives to reduce poverty is actually following Islamic Law. And any move to accord scholarships is considered fulfilling Islamic obligation. Respecting the rights of non Muslims ( although the insult on Malay and UMNO is so common here) is considered as fulfilling Prophet’s reminder that “any injustice against non Muslim is an injustice against Me and therefore grave sin against Allah”.

    And yes. No Malays ever said that UMNO will rule forever. Thanks for the reminder. Although the same reminder is written in Kuran that God ( Allah) can accord power and can take it away in split second.

  70. #70 by shamshul anuar on Thursday, 15 January 2009 - 7:06 pm

    Dear On lookers,

    What actually happen in Palestine? Well, time for some history. Way back thousand years ago, as per Christian tradition, A Jew betrayed Jesus, resulting to his cruxification.

    So for thousand years, Jews were murdered. Christian Kings were busy conducting pogroms. When Spain fell to Queen Isabella in 1492, not only Muslims chased out but also Jews. And where did these Jews go ? They settled in countries like Tunisia, Greece, or Ottoman Empire.

    In 16th century, one Pope was forced to release a Jew incarated in prison after protest by then Sultan Suleiman of Ottoman Empire.
    in 1897, Jews met then Sultan of Ottoman Empire and offered him to buy what is now Israel.

    Sultan Abdul Hamid rejected the offer outright but he allowed Jews to stay in his Empire. Ottoman Empire joined World War 1 but lost the war. Its Arab empire disintegrated. Saudi Arabia, current Jordan, Iraq, Israel, Palestine, Bahrain, QAtar, Yemem was given to Britain as British Mandate. France took Syria and Lebanon.

    Come World War 2 and Hitler blaming Jews for German loss in the WorldWar 1, conducted mass massacre of Jews. Western world closed one eye. Britain even forced Chezcholovakia to part with parts of its territory to appease German in 1937. Britain , France closed their eyes when Hitler annexed Austria in 1938.

    German invaded poland on Sept 1, 1939. And pogrom against Jews accelerated. After the war, feelin guilty over centuries of pogrom against Jews, Western World( meaning USA, Britain mainly) felt that this Jews issue need to be settled once and for all.

    Some house cleaning to be done. Get ride of unwanted people. Jews were encouraged to settled in Palestine. Palestinians objected heavily.

    But they were no match to might of Jews supported by USA and Britain. In a decade hundred of thousands of Jews settled in Palestine, displacing the Arabs.

    In May 1948, Israel was declared. Weeks before the independence, Haganah, Jews extremists conducted terror against simple Arab peasants. They had no choice but to flee.

    You see On Looker, the problem is not religion. It is territorial. Imagine someone occupied you house and chased you away.

    I used to study in USA. Many of my American colleaques then asked me about this. How come, they asked, Muslim hated Jews so much? I realized that I need to tell the sequence of events to make a point.

    My answer often met with silence. Again. The standard response come” We do not know this. We do not know that Arabs were displaced in order to create a country named Israel”.

  71. #71 by jus legitimum on Thursday, 15 January 2009 - 8:58 pm

    Shamsul Anuar,who told you that Malays are the natives of this land.The natives are the orang asli not your kind,You are also decendent of pendatang.FYI,quite a number of the Chinese forefathers migrated to Malaya in 16th century and Tun Tan Cheng Lock’s ancestor was among those early Chinese migrants.Many Malays were quite recent migrants from Indonesia and the hp6 Toyol’s father was also among them.These people are so thickskinned like the notorious Mamak Ahmad from Penang dared to condemn the Chinese as penumpang.My family can even beat Toyol as my grand nephew and niece are the fifth generation born here.Despite that we although the minority can survive independently without the crutches accorded to the majority.It is most absurd the rich among the majority are given tongkat and they have shamelessly accepted it.No wonder the whole nation being dominated by this majority weak race is virtually regressing instead of progressing.

  72. #72 by voice2009 on Thursday, 15 January 2009 - 10:40 pm

    jus legitimum, you are right, before malaya indepedence many indonesian immigrant entered Johor from Sumatra.

    They used to called Johor Malay.

    They are new immigrants and they enjoyed the specific position as the Malay over others.

  73. #73 by monsterball on Thursday, 15 January 2009 - 11:57 pm

    Shamsul…..have you ever heard of a city name Ache…which was destroyed by tsunami recently?
    Your ancestors and religion came from that part of Indonesia.
    Check it out…how long ago?
    UMNO have poisoned you with half truths and lies…with false historical facts.
    You simply believe because UMNO also use Islam religion to protect you….and your mind cannot simply think….just believe everything they say. This was exactly how the ..England…ruled us.
    Other Malaysians….especially the Dayats..Ibans…Kubu…modern…dusun…and many many more…never claim to be Malays….yet settled here much longer than the so call Malay race.
    But the actual fact..you are ruled by ancestors from Arabia…..more than from Ache….and many royalties are from Java….are Javanese..which came from India and China…like the famous..menangkebau.
    All claim to be Malaysians…except UMNO members.
    Why do you want to talk history when you know next to nothing.
    But if you say…you are descendants from homosapians…you are 100% right.
    hi…Shamsul…I love to read your knowledge about Han Tuah and Han Jebat. All level headed students and teachers in Melaka know them…..do you??
    I challenge you to prove you know Malay history..inside out.
    What you put out..are upside down..bunkum…so far.
    But don’t feel sad. Your masters…UMNO leaders are even worst than you….just actors with very low IQ…..dressed up in style…with false titles…steal Malaysian money….with no shame.

  74. #74 by undergrad2 on Friday, 16 January 2009 - 10:44 pm


    I see you’re having a ball.

  75. #75 by undergrad2 on Friday, 16 January 2009 - 11:58 pm

    OrangRojak Says:

    January 14th, 2009 (2 days ago) at 11: 59.49
    Jeffrey – what is the Constitutional position on Syariah courts?”

    Article 121(1A) of the Federal Malaysian Constitution has, in my opinion, the unintended effect of muddying the water on the issue of whether the Constitution is the supreme law of the land – and here’s why. It is obvious that Article 4 refers to civil law: “The Constitution is the supreme law of the federation” and that “any law passed …which is inconsistent shall be void to the extent of the inconsistency”.

    Article 121(1A) has given rise to conflicting interpretations. A lot has been written about them and so there is no need to repeat them here. This amendment has left the question “Which of the two prevails in the event of a conflict – syariah law or civil law” begging to be answered. As if this is not enough to blow some fuses, there is this talk about a double-tracked system of justice. Is justice and our justice system like a train that it must have more than one track? The strength in any constitutional amendment as every one knows is in its drafting. Granted the art of drafting any legislation is not a rocket science, this one has the further effect amending the law by omissions – all unintended.

    Article 4 ,of course, refers to civil law since this country has a multiethnic population ( at the time about 50% were Muslims unlike today when 60% are Muslims) – until of course some bright spark decides to elevate syariah law to the same level as civil law and it is for a very practical reason that nobody is willing to admit to. What are we going to do with our graduates in syariah law? Don’t they deserve equal opportunities and equality before the law? When those graduates are also Malays, then the urgency is compounded many times over. The issue is about graduate unemployment among the Malays and less about religious freedom.

    Politicans from both sides of the political divide made it into what it is today – and issue over religious freedom, aided no doubt by civil court judges refusing to take a stand on the issue.

  76. #76 by shamshul anuar on Saturday, 17 January 2009 - 12:05 am

    Dear Jus legitimun,

    Yes. You are right. The original people is the native Orang Asli. Nobody denies that. Not even Malays or UMNO or PAS or the whole world.

    I fail to see the logics( not that you have one anyway) of your statement.

    But the Malays are recognised as the people who forms the govts that have been recognised by the whole world. For the unitiated like you, recognition comes in many form such as foreigners asking permission to trade or stay here or signing treaties with Malay rulers.

    War, ultimatum or any relations done were done with Malay rulers. The Independence instrument was signed by Malay Rulers weeks before Independence, to be exact on Aug 3rd, 1957.

    That expresses recognition. The land was once referred “Persekutuan Tanah Melayu” or literally “Land of the Malays”.

    YOu can list down many Chinese whose families go back to 16th century. Nobody is denying that. It is just that the world recognises Malays as the original ruler of the land. That is the fact.

    That is why even at the lowest ebb of Malay- English ties, London still recognised Malay rulers by asking their Rulers consent before implementation of Malayan Union. Whether the consent given whole heartly or threat is another matter but the legitimacy of Malay Rulers were recognised.

    If you care to read the Constitution you will find that the word “Malay” is mentioned 54 times but none made on Chinese or Indian. Why ? Not because Malays are super genious or selected people like what claimed by Jews but because British recognises that when they came to Malay states, the states have already system of governance.

    That does not mean that non Malays have no rights. The rights are enshrined in Constitution in the forms of freedom to practise religion, cultural heritage or conducting trade or mother tongues or rights to celebrate festivals or right to vote.

    You can insult Dr Khir by trying to equate him with “Toyol” but actually it shows your upbringing or rather lack of it.. You will notice that I often criticize Uncle Lim for maintaining Imperial line in DAP( that DAP members agreed) but I never insult him personally.

    I do not have to condemn his father or giving nickname that ridicules his personality. As goes the saying “mannerism maketh a man”.

    I mean that I do not expect you to comment like Nobel laureate. Everybody knows your limitation. But show some humility and comment but spare the insult. I am quite liberal here but some minimum standard is expected here. Just try to meet that mimimun standard, will you?

    As for where I come from , here from Kedah or Acheh , I am proud of my heritage. There is nothing to be embarassed of your background. It does not matter where you come from but where are you going is much more important. Simply because your forefather came from almost poverty condition in rural China in tongkang does not make you insignificant.

    As for Monsterball, there were many reasons for colonialism. I never say anything about denying the weaknesses of Malay Rulers then. Quite common in every part of the globe. I am sure you are aware there is nothing much Emperor of China then could do to prevent looting of Summer Palace or forcing China to pay indemnity after Opium War.

    So, if you think you can hit me below the belt, do not forget that I can do the same. If you care to learn history , you wll realize that once Sultan of Sabah( part of Sulu sultanate) was reluctant to cede Labuan to British. But British pounding the Sabah coast forced him to cede Labuan to the British.

    As for Voice2009, yes many from Malaysia have families in Indonesia. But the movement of people way back 100 or 200 years ago took place within one “rumpun” where once were one empire. As an example, Riau Archipelago until early 19th century was part of Johor Empire. Pattani in South Thailand had Sultans until 1909. So, social boundary is not necessarily political boundary.

    As for Dayak or Iban or Kenyah or Semai or Bajau, yes they are the natives. I am not interested to argue who comes here earlier than who. What is the point quarelling on such senseless argument. What do you achieve from doing that. No need to be petty.

  77. #77 by voice2009 on Saturday, 17 January 2009 - 3:47 pm

    shamshul anuar,

    Please do not try to confuse people here, the Malayan got independent in one condition that the Chinese and Indian in agreed terms and condition.

    Do not try to tell and confused us here as a liar.

    The land of Malaysia and all under the Malay rulers like Sarawak, Sabah, Penang and Malaca.

  78. #78 by voice2009 on Saturday, 17 January 2009 - 3:48 pm

    The land of Malaysia and not all under the Malay rulers like Sarawak, Sabah, Penang and Malaca.

  79. #79 by jus legitimum on Saturday, 17 January 2009 - 4:29 pm

    Shamsul Anuar,do you mean that just because this country was once named “Persekutuan Tanah Melayu’ before the formation of Malaysia,you all should be treated like tuan and others are all second class.Please wake up and stop being fooled by Umno’s policy of using race and religion to divide the people of Malaysia.As long as you people still cling to handouts and expect special treatment,there is no way the country can progress.The country can only move ahead if everyone is treated equally and is given reward based on meritocracy.Unlike for decades,the mindset of the people have been inculcated with the regressive concept of who you know but not what you know.It is hoped that with the rise of Obama as the President of America,people here including you should realise that merit,capablity and level playing ground are all that matter when we choose a leader and not majority race,colour,religion and considerations based on outdated historical

  80. #80 by undergrad2 on Sunday, 18 January 2009 - 12:56 am

    At least in the case of the United States, their constitution is not titled “The Federation of Indian Reservations” because native Americans only received their citizenship rights not too long ago. Name me one country where natives would have to apply for their citizenship rights.

  81. #81 by ktteokt on Sunday, 18 January 2009 - 10:38 am

    Perhaps it is time MCA, through OTK, should sign a SELF CONFESSION of its SINS!

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