Special Parliament on Gaza on Monday


Just received notice from Parliament of a special meeting of Parliament on Monday on the Israeli invasion of Gaza.

Parliament will meet on Monday, January 12, 2008 at 2.30 p.m. and not the usual beginning of 10 am.

This is the result of the joint memorandum submitted by Pakatan Rakyat leaders to the Prime Minister, Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi in Putrajaya last Monday (5th January) for a special Parliament meeting on Gaza.

The latest atrocity in Gaza is the killing of at least 40 Palestinians when Israeli forces struck a school run by the United Nations.

The world is faced with a humanitarian disaster in Gaza, whose water and sewage systems are on the verge of collapse because of power shortages – with more than 530,000 people among Gaza’s population of 1.4 million completely cut off from running water and the rest receive water only every few days.

The death toll in Gaza has exceeded 600 since the start of the Israeli offensive last month.

  1. #1 by monsterball on Wednesday, 7 January 2009 - 7:52 pm

    Special meeting on GAZA important.
    Elected politicians… representing 5 States ..asked for special meeting….not important.
    I wonder which one Malaysians prefer to listen to…GAZA or what Anwar had to say….when he called for a special meeting..not granted.
    You can be sure….Dollah and Hajib will prove what great fair minded good souls they are.
    Surely Pakatan Rakyat have to agree…on justice for mankind.
    HAMAS will surely be pleased…and go to hell with Israel.
    Sucide bombers…..are from the victimized…the innocent who lost dear ones…like a baby.
    Where are they…in Palestine or in Israel?
    Palestinians have gone crazy….Malaysia need to do it’s
    part….donations and support them..to live peacefully.

  2. #2 by alaneth on Wednesday, 7 January 2009 - 8:04 pm

    Even UN Security Council meetings & international humanitarian law & the Geneva convention cannot stop Israel.

    What can our Parlimentary emergency meeting do?????
    Boycott Coca-cola? Starbucks? Don’t waste time & effort. Better stay at home & pray.

  3. #3 by king cobra on Wednesday, 7 January 2009 - 8:25 pm

    special meeting for gaza issue ?

    should let the UN convenve a special meeting on the gaza issue instead………malaysia parliament should deal wif issues facing the malaysian rakyat at large………..gosh…………

  4. #4 by Lee Wang Yen on Wednesday, 7 January 2009 - 8:37 pm

    PAS is in PR

  5. #5 by sheriff singh on Wednesday, 7 January 2009 - 9:01 pm

    I bet you that there will be a “live” TV telecast and everyone will be playing to the gallery in view of the KT by-elections.

    Just what did Malaysia and Pak Lah do when we were heading the OIC?

  6. #6 by Onlooker Politics on Wednesday, 7 January 2009 - 9:19 pm

    Other than giving the offer to help on humanitarian basis and calling both Israel and Palestine to exercise self-control and self-restraint and to quickly come back to the roundtable for Peace Talk, I really do not know what else resolution the Parliament is going to pass in the Special Meeting on Monday.

    We attempt to deal with a decade-old issue which even the Almighty and Sovereign God will have found it very difficult to resolve. Does anyone of us really think that God is going to take side pertaining to the Gaza issue?

  7. #7 by OrangRojak on Wednesday, 7 January 2009 - 9:28 pm

    Perhaps they need to work on the detail of an official statement. I hope it’ll be somewhere between “they asked for it, so we gave it to them good” and “death to the zionists”. I can’t imagine it’s going to be an easy task – Malaysia doesn’t officially recognise the state of Israel, does it?

  8. #8 by PSM on Wednesday, 7 January 2009 - 9:33 pm

    Sheriff Singh, you are right. There will be a live telecast & all the politicians (be they Govt. or Opposition) will be the great defenders of the Palestianian people!
    At the end of the day, nothing but talk…talk…talk…noting will change!
    More Palestinians will get killed & Hamas will still be shooting bombs into Israel trying to kill one or two Jews!

  9. #9 by undergrad2 on Wednesday, 7 January 2009 - 9:41 pm

    Lee Wang Yen Says:

    Today at 20: 37.03 (56 minutes ago)
    PAS is in PR”

    Thanks for telling the rest of us ignorant voters who do not know how to think that PAS is in PR. All this time we thought PAS was a fringe party best given the pass by Chinese voters.

  10. #10 by cancan on Wednesday, 7 January 2009 - 9:41 pm

    Let us take this war as a case study in Malaysia.

    If Malaysia is attacked by a foreign country,what should the citizens of Malaysian do?

    Can they defend the country?
    Do they have the will to fight for the country?
    Must they sacrifice for the country?

    http://kingsmary.blogspot.com/

  11. #11 by undergrad2 on Wednesday, 7 January 2009 - 9:47 pm

    Onlooker Politics Says:

    Today at 21: 19.57 (21 minutes ago
    “We attempt to deal with a decade-old issue which even the Almighty and Sovereign God will have found it very difficult to resolve. Does anyone of us really think that God is going to take side pertaining to the Gaza issue?” Onlooker

    A decade old issue?? I’m sorry but history did not start the day you were born.

  12. #12 by undergrad2 on Wednesday, 7 January 2009 - 9:54 pm

    OrangRojak Says:
    Today at 21: 28.42 (18 minutes ago)
    “Malaysia doesn’t officially recognise the state of Israel, does it?”

    Some Malaysians feel Malaysia does not need to recognize any state before it is said to exist. These are those who would have their passports confiscated from them at airports when they could not explain why a page from their passport is missing.

  13. #13 by sheriff singh on Wednesday, 7 January 2009 - 10:11 pm

    We keep talking about “decades-old issues” but how far back in history should one go to determine who has a right to Palestine?

    To some*, God gave the land to the Jews and who is man to go against God’s command?

    * See “Koran Supports Israel”

    http://atheism.about.com/b/2006/06/03/koran-supports-israel.htm

  14. #14 by Tickler on Wednesday, 7 January 2009 - 10:17 pm

    This playing to the gallery has just got to be a comedy act.

    Hamas leader: We reject a permanent truce with Israel

    The deputy head of Hamas’s political bureau on Wednesday said his group is studying peace initiatives to end the violence in Gaza Strip but rejects permanent truce with Israel.

    and

    Hamas rejects deployment of peacekeepers:

    Hamas would consider the stationing of observers on border crossings with Egypt but was opposed to the deployment of an international peacekeeping force, a senior official said on Tuesday.

    Moussa Abu Marzouk, a Damascus-based Hamas official, told the Financial Times that his organisation, which has been under massive Israeli assault, was ready for a ceasefire as long as it involved an Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, the end of the blockade of the territory and some “arrangement” for the border crossing with Egypt.

    …Mr Abu Marzouk, however, ridiculed the Israeli suggestion that it could be sidelined in any ceasefire deal, saying that his organisation did not recognise Israel’s legitimacy but dealt with it through mediators.

    “This [the Israeli position] is not a problem. Our position is also that Israel is neither legitimate nor credible,” he said.

  15. #15 by Jong on Wednesday, 7 January 2009 - 10:18 pm

    As if Israel cares, whether Malaysia recognaises it or not!

  16. #16 by anti-kezaliman on Wednesday, 7 January 2009 - 10:18 pm

    I think most of us here in Malaysia, and even majority of world population, have been made to believe in distorted versions of the Palestine-Israel conflict, thanks to all powerful Zionist-controlled international news agency.

    To neutralise ourselves, why not we listen to what non-zionist Jewish groups has to say about the conflict?

    Read it here:
    http://www.cactus48.com/truth.html
    http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org
    http://www.jewsforajustpeace.com/

  17. #17 by Jong on Wednesday, 7 January 2009 - 10:23 pm

    oops sorry should read – “recognises”

  18. #18 by anti-kezaliman on Wednesday, 7 January 2009 - 10:23 pm

    Read the version published by http://www.ifamericansknew.org (website founded by Alison Weir, an American journalist)

    “For centuries there was no such conflict. In the 19th century the land of Palestine was inhabited by a multicultural population – approximately 86 percent Muslim, 10 percent Christian, and 4 percent Jewish – living in peace.

    In the late 1800s a group in Europe decided to colonize this land. Known as Zionists, this group consisted of an extremist minority of the Jewish population. They wanted to create a Jewish homeland, and considered locations in Africa and the Americas, before settling on Palestine.”

    Read more: http://www.ifamericansknew.org

  19. #19 by undergrad2 on Wednesday, 7 January 2009 - 10:29 pm

    Jong Says:

    Today at 22: 18.46 (5 minutes ago)
    As if Israel cares, whether Malaysia recognaises it or not!”

    Malaysia cannot even if she wants to, because it goes to the root cause of the conflict! But it would be nice! We could import more kosher food which is not unlike our ‘halal’ food – even kosher computers.

  20. #20 by Tickler on Wednesday, 7 January 2009 - 10:30 pm

    Parliamentary sessions are not enough, just loads of gabbing. Send in the RMR with Mahathir at the head.
    Ahhh, then there`ll be results with those evil despicable jews running into the mediterranean.

  21. #21 by hongsichuan on Wednesday, 7 January 2009 - 10:59 pm

    Lee Wang Yen said PAS is in PR.

    I wonder what this has to do with Gaza, logically speaking that is. I seek to be logically enlightened on this.

  22. #22 by vsp on Wednesday, 7 January 2009 - 11:14 pm

    See what happens when some naughty boys began to stir the hornet nest? They got stung real bad. Do hornet understand disproportionate use of power – the current buzzword of Hamas apologists?

  23. #23 by undergrad2 on Wednesday, 7 January 2009 - 11:29 pm

    hongsichuan Says:

    Today at 22: 59.11 (24 minutes ago)
    Lee Wang Yen said PAS is in PR.

    I wonder what this has to do with Gaza, logically speaking that is. I seek to be logically enlightened on this.”

    I think many of us have had enough of his intellectual masturbation on this blog. Many of us have had to rush for the door everytime he walks in lest we run short of our supply of fresh air.

  24. #24 by Tickler on Wednesday, 7 January 2009 - 11:55 pm

    24 April – 10 May , 1997

    “Get Out Israel, We Hate You”; “Damn The Zionists”, “Crush The Jews” – so jeered the placards in downtown Kuala Lumpur this month. The provocation: the Israeli cricket team, possessed of a fairly unimposing record in international competition. Yet their two-week Malaysian tour in early April highlighted the growing contradictions between pragmatic and increasingly militant Islam in Malaysia.

    The Israeli team arrived in Kuala Lumpur as the first delegation openly associated with Israel to visit Malaysia, whose unwavering hostility has precluded the establishment of diplomatic relations between the two countries. The series of anti-Israel demonstrations in the capital that followed provided headaches for police and organisers of the 22-nation tournament sponsored by the International Cricket Council.

    As a precondition for hosting the ICC Trophy tournament, Malaysia was obliged to admit the Israeli team. Yet Malaysian Prime Minister Dr Mahathir – who has just returned from Saudi Arabia where he received the King Faisal award for his contribution to Islam – probably anticipated a negative reaction, argued that the granting of visas to the Israeli team enabled Malaysia to “point out to Israel and Israelis that followers of different religions in Malaysia can live together in harmony.”

    Yet the protests began almost immediately. Only a day after the tournament began, on March 25, some 300 members of the opposition Parti Islam se-Malaysia (PAS) carried anti-Israel placards through Kuala Lumpur and later burnt two Israeli flags before dispersing. Two days later, a feature article in The Malaysian Star by Associate Professor Muhamad Nur Manuty, President of the Muslim Youth Movement of Malaysia, and Professor Chandra Muzaffar, Director of the Just World Trust, expressed concern that the Israeli team presence may be a precursor to diplomatic ties between Malaysia and Israel. Under the provocative heading “Tell the Israelis that it is not just cricket”, the authors’ strongly pro-Palestinian line verged on incitement; asserting that “To give even a slight hint of a willingness to consider recognition of Israel at this point in time would be a travesty of justice.”

    Not surprisingly, a major incident occurred shortly afterwards on March 30 – around 500 PAS members invaded a ground where they mistakenly thought the Israeli team would be playing. The scheduled match between Canada and the Netherlands had to be cancelled after the demonstrators, sporting placards reading “Damn the Zionists” and “Crush Israel”, lit bonfires and smashed promotional billboards outside the PKNS ground in Kuala Lumpur. PAS members met the match referee and demanded to know where the Israelis were playing.

    Incredibly, no arrests were made after the three-hour incident. The PAS’s protest leader Mahfuz Omar said his group would track down the Israeli team and stage more protests. Meanwhile, the match between Israel and Gibraltar had been switched to another venue – guarded by 100 riot police and five police buses blocking the entrance – after organisers received information that a protest would be staged.

    Prime Minister Mahathir continued to defend his decision to allow the Israeli team to play by appealing to national pride, stating that “the international media, which is controlled by the West and the Jews, is always projecting a bad image of Malaysia, even to the extent of portraying an ugly image of Muslims… This is our opportunity to show them (the Israelis) that Muslims in Malaysia can be an example to other Islamic countries.”

    The exhortation for calm did not prevent another disturbance from occurring – on April 4, about 800 protesters, comprised of PAS members and students from the University of Malaya, assembled after Friday prayers at the university’s main entrance in Kuala Lumpur. Israel was scheduled to play Argentina inside the campus. The Association of Students of Higher Institutions of Learning issued a statement proclaiming: “Israel is a race cursed by Allah and inviting them here means bringing God’s catastrophe into Malaysia.”

  25. #25 by jey on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 12:13 am

    Speaking about \disproportionate\ use of force, I found the below to be thought provoking. Some \check and balance\ views.

    Questions About Proportionality
    by Sammy Benoit

    How many rockets would make it okay?

    The President of France, Sarkozy practically tripped over his underwear rushing to call Israel’s Gaza incursion a
    The number one obligation of any government is to protect its people.
    \disproportionate\ use of force. David Miliband, Britain’s Foreign Secretary, said Israel was causing a \dangerous and dark moment.\ He went on to say \that any innocent loss of life is unacceptable.\ Doing his best to imitate Kofi Annan, UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon complained about the \the disproportionate use of force\ on the part of Israel and condemned \excessive use of force by Israel in Gaza.\ Even Israel’s \friend\ India was disappointed that \the use of disproportionate force is resulting in a large number of civilian casualties on the one hand and the escalating violence on the other.\

    So let us examine that for a second. How many Jews had to die to make Israel’s response proportionate – five, ten, 100? Should the United Nations develop a system that gives a value to each life and determines when they could be protected? How many Israelis equals the self-defense \tipping point\? How many English? Since they never have the guts to fight, would the French be more or less?

    The number one obligation of any government is to protect its people. In his book The Leviathan the philosopher Thomas Hobbes said, \To escape this state of war, men in the state of nature accede to a social contract and establish a civil society.\ According to Hobbes, society is a population beneath a sovereign authority, to whom all individuals in that society cede their natural rights for the sake of protection.

    Hobbes never mentioned just how many individuals could be protected.

    John Locke and Jean-Jacques Rousseau were classic philosophers whose work formed the theoretical groundwork of democracy. They suggested that any government which does not protect the life, liberty and property of its people should be overthrown.

    At the expense of its people, Israel has not been fulfilling its end of the social contract, the basis of which gives a government the right to rule. Finally, after 8,000 rockets and mortars fired into the country, Israel has decided to stop the rocket fire and protect her people.

    So I ask again: How many rockets make it okay to protect your citizens? Was America’s response to the
    How many bombs can land in Britain before the British can respond?
    bombing of Pearl Harbor \disproportionate\? What about England’s response to the bombing of London during World War II? The Nazis were trying to destroy England in the same way Hamas is trying to destroy Israel.

    Before other democracies start calling a response \disproportionate\, maybe they should define what is \proportionate\. How many bombs can land in Britain before the British can respond? How many terrorist attacks in Mumbai can occur before India can try to stop them? If Paris is bombed, can the French surrender right away? If Secretary General Ban Ki-moon’s home country of South Korea was bombed from the north, would the South Koreans be allowed to put a stop to it?

    Those are the questions that need to be answered before anyone attacks Israel for protecting her citizens.

  26. #26 by juno on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 1:39 am

    See what a war can do — a child s agony as his mother dies http://sjsandteam.wordpress.com/2009/01/07/stop-this-war%E2%80%A6let-us-love-one-another/ .Blood is always red no matter from where one comes from. So sad!

  27. #27 by chengho on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 1:54 am

    Malaysia have to stay united for Gaza atrocities , do not becoming like the Arabs nation as the Gaza massacre going on they are busy with tennis tournament in Qatar..

  28. #28 by Tickler on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 2:29 am

    24 April – 10 May , 1997 (Part2)

    The exhortation for calm did not prevent another disturbance from occurring – on April 4, about 800 protesters, comprised of PAS members and students from the University of Malaya, assembled after Friday prayers at the university’s main entrance in Kuala Lumpur. Israel was scheduled to play Argentina inside the campus. The Association of Students of Higher Institutions of Learning issued a statement proclaiming: “Israel is a race cursed by Allah and inviting them here means bringing God’s catastrophe into Malaysia.”

    When the protesters refused to leave and began hurling stones at security personnel, police were forced to release tear gas and use batons and a water cannon to break up the group. About 100 protesters took refuge in a nearby Mosque, which police then surrounded for six hours before entering to make arrests. A PAS youth leader, Sheikh Abu Bakar, later boasted that the demonstration had forced Israel’s match to be cancelled, though in fact, the game had been moved to a secondary school in Kuala Lumpur.

    With one protester and 22 police injured, it was the most violent demonstration seen in Kuala Lumpur for years and the first open manifestation of campus activism in almost two decades. Dr Mahathir responded by describing the demonstration as “sheer stupidity” which would not help the Palestinian struggle. The Education Minister, Najib Razak, followed by warning that students involved in the protest could be expelled, though the President of the Undergraduate Islamic Association, Ridhwan Zakaria, defended the students position, insisting those who participated had no links with the PAS and acted “of their own free will.”

    The involvement of students in the demonstrations did not only indicate that the apparent calm of Malaysian universities is illusory. More significant is that the students are attracted to the radical and fundamentalist form of Islam promoted by PAS, and that this emerging generation opposes the Government’s more moderate and pragmatic approach to Islamic issues.

    Making up 53 per cent of the population, Malaysia’s Muslims are necessarily an essential component of national stability. Apart from the opposition PAS (which governs the Kelantan province), Muslims are an influential force in Dr Mahathir’s United Malays National Organisation (UMNO), which is embroiled in debate over whether it should adopt a more Islamic orientation. Some senior figures in the party are said to believe the decision to admit the Israeli cricket team was ill-advised at a time when Islamic states have been calling for tough action against Israel, and say it left Mahathir’s pragmatic government open to criticism at home and from abroad.

  29. #29 by Justitia on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 2:34 am

    Goes to show how messed up our priorities are when it comes to issues. Parliament granting a special session on this topic when there are more pressing issues affecting the people in their every day lives such as crime, corruption, the economic crisis slowly engulfing the country where there is no clear road map on a plan to pull us through the worsening economic situation. But, yes, we should spend plenty of time discussing the Hamas (it is not even a Palestinian as the West Bank is not involved)/Israeli conflict. Sadly, it is not principle-based as there are other humanity crisis elsewhere such as Darfur, Congo, etc. Once again, we see the hypocrisy and selective standards in play. At the end of the day, we will come up with some one-sided statement that shows how bogus we are. I wonder how much the KT by-election is playing in this. What a disappointment when we do not apply principle-based thinking and decisions that recognized that human suffering is universal whether it is rockets from Hamas or the retaliation from Israel. Hence, the civilians on the receiving end on either side needs to be supported and not only one side. Isn’t this another way of accepting “ketuanan” of one race over another?

  30. #30 by fairplay500 on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 3:43 am

    And all this talk about boycott:
    What a bunch of hypocrites!! Malaysia cannot live without US products and that is a given. Anyone wants to dispute that? I challenge you. What? “some 100 other products” and for how long? Are computers and OS included? Get real, your boycott is just a drop in the bucket. You lose!!

  31. #31 by chiakchua on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 5:05 am

    We should voice out against killing of innocent whether they are placed at certain place as human shield by the Hamas or not. An emergency sitting of parliament is over-reaction and shows only the double standards we have towards the Palestinian and Israelites when life is involved. We should have also earlier condemned shooting of missile into Israel by the Hamas; we didn’t do that because many think the Hamas is teaching the Israelites a lesson on behalf of God. Someone should work out a longterm peace deal though we know it is not easy. Let’s commit this problem in our prayer.

  32. #32 by vsp on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 6:32 am

    Actually in this conflict, the only visible actors to be blamed or defended are the Israelis and the Palestinians. They themselves are the victims of some unseen hands: the big powers, the Arab despots, the Europeans and the Americans.

    For centuries the Jews were being ill-treated by the Europeans until the climax of the persecution of this hapless race resulted in the Holocaust.

    The Europeans realized that they have to get rid of the Jews by some other means and so they were very supportive of sending the Jews back to their ancient homeland. If they cannot deal with the Jews then let the Arabs slaughtered the Jews. And so the problem was transfered to the Arabs.

    Being of human thinking, the Europeans thought the Jews would have no chance of surviving the hatred of Arabs. The British, being the Mandate power for Palestine, tried their best to trottle the rate of immigration of the Jews into Palestine and to seize any arms brought by the Jews. But they had no qualms supplying and training the Arab armies.

    The Arab despots on their part, with the connivance of the Europeans, decided not to accept the Partition plan and they egg on the Palestinians to fight the Jews thinking that they would wipe out the Jews from the face of this earth even before they can form a proper state. When they lost the war, in spite of their superiority in arms and manpower, they abandoned the Palestinians to their own devices.

    [By normal convention when you decide to go to war and lose you would forfeit some of your rights. That’s how many countries of the world today are the result of war!]

    If they were so concerned for Palestinians why not give the them some land of their own since it so plentiful? That’s what religion teaches. But no they decided to use the Palestinians in order to protect their own interests. Doesn’t this latest conflict tied in with the recent sharp drop in the price of oil? War is the only way to shore up the price of oil.

    Therefore this conflict can only be solved by the Israelis and the Palestinians themselves. They had being living on that same piece of land without killing one another for centuries.

  33. #33 by pulau_sibu on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 8:16 am

    Singapore is welcomed to shot missiles into Malaysia often. We will not take any revenge. Because it is the same as Hamas firing missiles into Israel.

  34. #34 by taiking on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 8:37 am

    Time for kerismudin to raise his kris.
    This time for humanity.

  35. #35 by Jeffrey on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 9:02 am

    “The latest atrocity in Gaza is the killing of at least 40 Palestinians when Israeli forces struck a school run by the United Nations” – statement in this thread.
    No one seems however bothered whether it was also atrocity when, before Isrealis invasion of Gaza, more than 700,000 Israelis were within range of Hamas’ rockets (with technical assistance from Iran) and Hamas rockets slammed into a kindergarten in Beersheba or after the invasion,30 rockets and mortars pounded southern Israel including one barrage on a kindergarten in Ashkelon.
    The fact is no political coalition or party stands a chance at winning Kuala Terengganu by-election, let alone winning power at Federal Government if it were foolish enough to very try to take objective non partisan side appearing unsympathetic to the Palestinian Cause (as distinct from Hama’s methods) or seen sympathetic to Israel’s right to self defence under international law.
    It is pure realpolitik considerations. They find easy camouflage in the fact there is really a humanitarian disaster in Gaza, both before, and especially after Israelis invasion….

  36. #36 by Jeffrey on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 9:05 am

    oops “…foolish enough to EVEN try to…”

  37. #37 by Racheljansz on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 9:28 am

    # king cobra Says:
    Yesterday at 20: 25.07
    special meeting for gaza issue ?
    should let the UN convene a special meeting on the gaza issue instead………malaysia parliament should deal with issues facing the malaysian rakyat at large!

    EXACTLY!
    Hamas does NOT represent the People staying in Palestine, like UMNO does NOT represent Malaysian!

    Malaysian politicians first class hypocrites!

    Why is there no special meeting to discuss the plunder of RM63.5 billion of Rakyat’s hard earned money by private companies have over the years amassed revenue, including compensation worth RM38 billion, by holding concessions over the roads!

  38. #38 by pakmang on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 9:36 am

    This Isreal-Palestine war has taken place since 1948… it has proven that even the UN security council couldn’t do anything in the past and what more to say our parliament? Dont waste time and our rakyat money….this special parliament meeting should hold for other important matters internally.

    Since both parties like to fight in order to get their problems solved without listening to social advices, then let them fight until both parties total tired and exhausted! This is only way to solve their problems if they dont sit down and resolve their problems…..

  39. #39 by trublumsian on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 9:37 am

    mamakthir n umno must be kidding. do they think UN n the world gives a damn what they say or do?? boycott american products to put a squeeze on the u.s. economy (quote the star) in mamathir’s words?
    n if they think the commoners can’t think n see things for themselves, they’re waaaay over their heads.

  40. #40 by newchief on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 9:39 am

    another of barbaric nationalists polictical gimmick to hold special parliament. when pass through, they will hold credit and if pk opposes, they will say pk is INHUMANE so voters cannot vote for them !! as such, pk is sucked off its blood by bn AGAIN !!

    pk should say yje majority of malaysians though feel sorry for this never-ending war in the middle-east, malaysia SHOULD NOT MEDDLE into other countries affairs or conflicts . this is clearly quated by stupid head rais when other countries quesion about about malaysian law handling cases like DSAI sodomy and mongolia case!!!

    in my opinion, we the rakyat needs more help in terms of rising cost of goods !! the bn should have concentrate on us which is of utmost importance .

    if really want to intefere, better send our armies there to shoot who-ever the bn politicians dislike!!! do not just talk only and hide behind a wolf-skin!!! too buzy body of this rais guy and many others !!!

    by the way, it is hamas who 1st made the first shot into israel with rockets to the sleeping dragon israel !!! just because israel is better equip, some nump-skulls blame israel & not hamas instead !!! for me, i think israel should annialiate the whole military hamas but spare the innocent citizens. however sadly to say, weapons/bullets invented don’t bear eyes to differenciate . we only hope and pray that the innocents can void the harm .

  41. #41 by trublumsian on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 9:44 am

    pakmang, hi, the israelis and paletinians hv been going at it way way back before 1948. they were called israelites and palestines then i think. so there u go this is a war thats been fought since the biblical days

  42. #42 by Bigjoe on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 10:04 am

    All the public/official expression of this problem and I wonder if its a case of most people can be stupid sometimes.

    In the end, the Israelis and Palestinian have to solve their problem themselves. The world world getting involved is enabling them NOT to come to a solution. Ther rest of the world has now become part of the problem.

    Yes, not doing anything seem not right, but perhaps its really the best thing the rest of the world can do for dysfunctional relationship that the region has…

  43. #43 by Tickler on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 10:06 am

    KT realpolitiks aside, here are some interesting facts:

    “There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Iraqis, etc. Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent of the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of one percent of the landmass. But that’s too much for the Arabs. They want it all. And that is ultimately what the fighting in Israel is about today… No matter how many land concessions the Israelis make, it will never be enough”.

    – Joseph Farah, “Myths of the Middle East” –

    Let us hear what other Arabs have said:

    “There is no such country as Palestine. ‘Palestine’ is a term the Zionists invented. There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria. ‘Palestine’ is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it”.

    – Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, Syrian Arab leader to British Peel Commission, 1937 –

    “There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not”.

    – Professor Philip Hitti, Arab historian, 1946 –

    “It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but Southern Syria”.

    – Representant of Saudi Arabia at the United Nations, 1956 –

    Concerning the Holy Land, the chairman of the Syrian Delegation at the Paris Peace Conference in February 1919 stated:

    “The only Arab domination since the Conquest in 635 c.e. hardly lasted, as such, 22 years”.

  44. #44 by Tickler on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 10:09 am

    The preceding declarations by Arab politicians have been done before 1967, as they had not the slightest knowledge of the existence of any Palestinian people. How and when did they change their mind and decided that such people existed? When the State of Israel was reborn in 1948 c.e., the “Palestinians” did not exist yet, the Arabs had still not discovered that “ancient” people. They were too busy with the purpose of annihilating the new Sovereign State and did not intend to create any Palestinian entity, but only to distribute the land among the already existing Arab states. They were defeated. They attempted again to destroy Israel in 1967, and were humiliated in only six days, in which they lost the lands that they had usurped in 1948. In those 19 years of Arab occupation of Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and the Gaza Strip, neither Jordan nor Egypt suggested to create a “Palestinian” state, since the still non-existing Palestinians would have never claimed their alleged right to have their own state… Paradoxically, during the British Mandate, it was not any Arab group but the Jews that were known as “Palestinians”!

    What other Arabs declared after the Six-Day War:

    “There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity… yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel”.

    – Zuhair Muhsin, military commander of the PLO and member of the PLO Executive Council –

    “You do not represent Palestine as much as we do. Never forget this one point: There is no such thing as a Palestinian people, there is no Palestinian entity, there is only Syria. You are an integral part of the Syrian people, Palestine is an integral part of Syria. Therefore it is we, the Syrian authorities, who are the true representatives of the Palestinian people”.

    – Syrian dictator Hafez Assad to the PLO leader Yassir Arafat –

    “As I lived in Palestine, everyone I knew could trace their heritage back to the original country their great grandparents came from. Everyone knew their origin was not from the Canaanites, but ironically, this is the kind of stuff our education in the Middle East included. The fact is that today’s Palestinians are immigrants from the surrounding nations! I grew up well knowing the history and origins of today’s Palestinians as being from Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Christians from Greece, muslim Sherkas from Russia, muslims from Bosnia, and the Jordanians next door. My grandfather, who was a dignitary in Bethlehem, almost lost his life by Abdul Qader Al-Husseni (the leader of the Palestinian revolution) after being accused of selling land to Jews. He used to tell us that his village Beit Sahur (The Shepherds Fields) in Bethlehem County was empty before his father settled in the area with six other families. The town has now grown to 30,000 inhabitants”.

    – Walid Shoebat, an “ex-Palestinian” Arab –

  45. #45 by Tickler on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 10:18 am

    Way back on March 31, 1977, the Dutch newspaper Trouw published an interview with Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein. Here’s what he said:

    The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct “Palestinian people” to oppose Zionism.

    For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.

  46. #46 by anti-kezaliman on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 10:33 am

    Tickler,

    All these are zionist versions of the stories. Why not you try to find the views of non-zionist Jews?

    Just Google something like “Jews for Peace” or “Jews for Justice” and you might what to reconsider your stand.

  47. #47 by monsterball on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 10:43 am

    Our government love to mind other people’s business…dressed up..go to parties….attend UMNO functions.
    Talking about USA and the GAZA war….their favourite subjects…..to waste tax money….doing nothing being elected.
    Can donate US1 million…to Gaza victims…but leave the flood victims and poorest of the poor in our country to generous Malaysian..for donations…..as if Malaysia is such a poor country.
    The fact of the matter is….UMNO look down on poor people…never really sincere…a if they own the land…..do as they like.
    Even loosing 5 States in last election.. never change one bit.
    Bragging….wasting public funds…so many white elephant projects..wasted billions…still going on…to earn commission…fooling voters……stealing so call..legally…showing off….they are the best in the world.

  48. #48 by anti-kezaliman on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 10:45 am

    Let’s listen to what Gandhi has to say about Israel-Palestine conflicts:

    “Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French…What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct…If they [the Jews] must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs… As it is, they are co-sharers with the British in despoiling a people who have done no wrong to them. I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regard as an unacceptable encroachment upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds.”

    Mahatma Gandhi, quoted in “A Land of Two Peoples” ed. Mendes-Flohr.

  49. #49 by pulau_sibu on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 10:47 am

    For those who want international money, so called aid, you need to create something controversial. This is like in order to keep the job of the police, we need the gangsters and crimes. Look at Arafat. How much money did he move into his own pocket? He has a wife who lives in Paris. The money came in because of these poor Palestinians. It is such a pity that no body tried to probe into his wealth.

  50. #50 by anti-kezaliman on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 10:48 am

    How long has Palestine been a specifically Arab country?

    “Palestine became a predominately Arab and Islamic country by the end of the seventh century. Almost immediately thereafter its boundaries and its characteristics — including its name in Arabic, Filastin — became known to the entire Islamic world, as much for its fertility and beauty as for its religious significance…In 1516, Palestine became a province of the Ottoman Empire, but this made it no less fertile, no less Arab or Islamic…Sixty percent of the population was in agriculture; the balance was divided between townspeople and a relatively small nomadic group. All these people believed themselves to belong in a land called Palestine, despite their feelings that they were also members of a large Arab nation…Despite the steady arrival in Palestine of Jewish colonists after 1882, it is important to realize that not until the few weeks immediately preceding the establishment of Israel in the spring of 1948 was there ever anything other than a huge Arab majority. For example, the Jewish population in 1931 was 174,606 against a total of 1,033,314.”

    Edward Said, “The Question of Palestine.”

  51. #51 by anti-kezaliman on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 10:50 am

    pulau_sibu,

    Thats exactly why Palestinians thrown Fatah out of office.

  52. #52 by Tickler on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 10:52 am

    anti-kezaliman Says:
    Today at 10: 33.12 (10 minutes ago)

    “All these are zionist versions of the stories. Why not you try to find the views of non-zionist Jews? ”

    You Sir, are a Big Joke. Since when did all those Arabs saying what they are saying become Zionists? Maybe you could go teach Arabs about their own history – that would be rich.

    Here`s something from Article 7 of those “Zionist” Hamas Charter where your brand of anti-kezaliman would dovetail nicely:

    “The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (the Cedar tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.” (related by al-Bukhari and Muslem).

    P.S.: Oh and thanks for the laughs.
    P

  53. #53 by Tickler on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 10:56 am

    Oh, and thanks for bringing up Gandhi. Yes very learned he was:

    Gandhiji’s thoughts in his 1940 ‘open letter’ to the British:

    “I want you to lay down the arms you have as being useless for saving you or humanity. You will invite Herr Hitler and Signor Mussolini to take what they want of the countries you call your possessions. Let them take possession of your beautiful island with your many beautiful buildings… If these gentlemen choose to occupy your homes, you will vacate them. If they do not give you free passage out, you will allow yourself, man, woman and child to be slaughtered… I am telling His Excellency the Viceroy that my services are at the disposal of His Majesty’s government, should they consider them of any practical use in enhancing my appeal.” (From Stanley Wolpert’s Jinnah of Pakistan.)

    Sri Aurobindo’s reaction when he heard this, as recorded in his book India’s Rebirth: “He must be a little cracked.”

  54. #54 by anti-kezaliman on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 11:00 am

    Tickler,

    This is nothing to do with religion, you’d better be careful not to insult any religion or the other. That narration only shows the divine prediction regarding the hostility between Muslims and Jews at the end of the world, and not an order for Muslim to kill Jews or vice versa.

    Why not you quote which website you cut and paste the quotes from?

  55. #55 by wanderer on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 11:03 am

    YB; Perhaps you should suggest to these caring UMNOputeras to send in an UMNO volunteer army to fight along side the Palestinians…like what Chinese did in the Korean War. All the shouting and ‘fiery demonstrations’ serve no purpose…put your money where your mouth is!!

  56. #56 by anti-kezaliman on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 11:04 am

    Tickler,

    I think Gandhi was being sarcastic in that one.

  57. #57 by Tickler on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 11:12 am

    Gandhi was not known for sarcasm, but for anti – kezaliman.
    Btw you better get your head straight this lovely morning. I`m not insulting, but quoting direct from the Hamas Charter, but in saying what you are stating you are insulting their religion. You want to know learnhow to google, and get necessary info.
    Don`t go around making accusations like that, it`s so juvenile.

  58. #58 by Tickler on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 11:14 am

    More samples of Gandhi`s “sarcastic” anti-kezaliman:

    When the extent of the holocaust was known, he criticized Jews who had tried to escape or fight for their lives as they did in Warsaw and Treblinka. “The Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher’s knife,” he said. “They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs.”

  59. #59 by anti-kezaliman on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 11:15 am

    “The standard Zionist position is that they showed up in Palestine in the late 19th century to reclaim their ancestral homeland. Jews bought land and started building up the Jewish community there. They were met with increasingly violent opposition from the Palestinian Arabs, presumably stemming from the Arabs’ inherent anti-Semitism. The Zionists were then forced to defend themselves and, in one form or another, this same situation continues up to today.

    The problem with this explanation is that it is simply not true, as the documentary evidence in this booklet will show. What really happened was that the Zionist movement, from the beginning, looked forward to a practically complete dispossession of the indigenous Arab population so that Israel could be a wholly Jewish state, or as much as was possible. Land bought by the Jewish National Fund was held in the name of the Jewish people and could never be sold or even leased back to Arabs (a situation which continues to the present).”

    -Jews for Justice in the Middle East, “The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict”, http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html

  60. #60 by anti-kezaliman on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 11:29 am

    Whatever it is, the historical fact is, Palestine was home for millions indigenous people consisting of roughly 85% Muslims, 10% Christians and 5% Jews, up to 1948.

    The zionist Jews came in droves in early 20th century, to be more exact soon before 1948, to claim the lands as their own, because their ancestors thousands of years ago used to live there. They wanted to establish their country there, at the expense of the millions indigenous people.

    It is not the indigenous Jews that were claiming the lands, rather it was the zionist Jews “coming back” from all over the world, with backing from USA and UK.

    If you listen carefully, there are Jews here and there oppose the Israeli way of establishing the country. In plain words, the zionist come, conquer, chase away indigenous people, and establish their country.

    They made a lot of excuses for the Palestinians being made refugees, saying that the Palestinians willingly left their homes, and the land became a “land of no people” whereas all Palestinian fertile lands were populated prior to establishment of Israel.

    Therefore this issue is not about religion, but rather it is a huiman right issues. The rights for the Palestinians to get their lands back, the properties that they legally acquired, but being snatched by the brutality of the zionists.

  61. #61 by k1980 on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 11:41 am

    I hereby propose that Kerismudin and his malay warriors parachute into Gaza to repel the Jews. Unless the Jews first die laughing at the sight of sarung-clad Kerismudin and his gang doing the battle silat dance with the kerises.

  62. #62 by Tickler on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 11:43 am

    “If you listen carefully, there are Jews here and there oppose the Israeli way of establishing the country.”

    Vice versa too – only they don`t go around throwing shoes. And a large number, as testified to by former PLO terrorist and now Christian convert, Walid Shoebat (quoted above), were descendants of the Arab influx in large part to Churchill`s efforts in thwarting the Balfour Declaration.

    Btw most of that “snatched” land was bought by jews. In fact currently there are more than a million Arabs in Israel proper.
    What about the larger number of Jews who were thrown out by the Arab countries after `48 (a larger number than the Arabs from israel)?

    This Arab influx was increased after `67 when the Gaza became a thriving commune after the Israeli takeover.A UN Report of that period listed Gaza as an economic miracle and 2nd to S`pore for investment.
    Didn`t last long that.

    It is absurd to even imagine that Jerusalem is not a religious issue – despite the attempts at dissimulation.

  63. #63 by Tickler on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 11:48 am

    Walid Shoebat, a former PLO terrorist that acknowledged the lie he was fighting for and the truth he was fighting against:

    “Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian?”
    “We did not particularly mind Jordanian rule. The teaching of the destruction of Israel was a definite part of the curriculum, but we considered ourselves Jordanian until the Jews returned to Jerusalem. Then all of the sudden we were Palestinians – they removed the star from the Jordanian flag and all at once we had a Palestinian flag”.
    “When I finally realized the lies and myths I was taught, it is my duty as a righteous person to speak out”.

  64. #64 by pulau_sibu on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 11:52 am

    How was 1 million aid made? Through another UMNO associated company or what? Some one needs to find out. Make sure no one tried to enrich himself because of the war (suffering of others).

  65. #65 by Lee Wang Yen on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 12:01 pm

    Anti-Kezaliman says:
    ‘Whatever it is, the historical fact is, Palestine was home for millions indigenous people consisting of roughly 85% Muslims, 10% Christians and 5% Jews, up to 1948.’

    Since Anti-kezaliman is interested in discussing history, we should consider some important historical questions.

    Who lived in that piece of land Anti-kezaliman terms ‘Palestine’ before the birth of Prophet Mohammad’

    Was Palestine a major Muslim country before the birth of Prophet Mohammad?

    When did the Arabs invade and occupy that piece of land?

    Of course, some will point out that the Jews took that piece of land from the ancient Canaanites.

    The crucial questions are :

    Didn’t the Arabs took that piece of land by military conquest?

    Were the ancient Canaanites the aboriginal inhabitants of that land?

    If the ancient Canaanites were the aboriginal inhabitants, are the current ‘Palestinians’ descendants of the ancient Canaanites?

    These are all relevant to the issue of who is occupying whose land.

  66. #66 by anti-kezaliman on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 12:02 pm

    Its easy to claim that zionist bought the land as there is no way to prove otherwise. The Palestinians fled due to intimidation.

    And this is nothing to do with whether the people are Jordanian or Palestinian, because before 1923, there’s no border between Jordan and Palestine during the Ottoman rule. rather, it’s about the indigenous people living on the very land that now zionist claim as Israel. They chased the people away. The people wanted to come back .

    Nvmind, see you’ll later

  67. #67 by Lee Wang Yen on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 12:02 pm

    Oops… ‘Didn’t the Arabs TAKE…’
    sorry

  68. #68 by Lee Wang Yen on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 12:04 pm

    Are the current ‘Palestinians’ the indigenous people of the land? Are they descendants of the aboriginal inhabitants?

  69. #69 by Jeffrey on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 12:10 pm

    Fine, ruling govt (BN) and opposition (PR) will in the special parliamentary session on Gaza be united in condemning Israeli aggression, calling for cease fire and end to humanitarian crisis beginning from Dec 27th , and following that, Malaysia will through our PM call for a UN General Assembly meeting to end Israel’s incursion into Gaza, where the UN Security Council has failed to do so : (se todays papers).

    Israel’s incursion into Gaza is result of a long standing feud in which Israel fights for her right to exist in peace and security as opposed Hama’s claim of its right to resist Israel’s claim, and to fight and destroy it.

    So when proceeding on this special parliamentary session on Gaza what is the government’s and the Opposition stand on this conflict of claims between Israel and Hamas :

    Does Israel have the ‘right to exist as a separate state where it is now?’

    We know that Israel exists as a state. It has a population of about 7.28 million, the majority of whom are Jews, that it meets international law requirements (as laid out in the 1933 Montevideo Convention) of statehood namely, a permanent population, a territory, a government and capacity to enter into relations with other States.

    The only problem is its territory about which there is considerable dispute as it has since “expanded” by occupation and settlement over West Bank, Gaza and Golan or parts thereof.

    Do the government and Opposition PR agree that:

    1. the only Jewish state in the world Israel exists;
    2. if so, is there common ground over the extent of territory in which it exists;
    3. if Israel exists, does it have the right to remain so, since the opposing faction Hamas has been (rightly or wrongly) construed as taking the stand that Israel has no right to exist and is out to destroy it?

    [In respect of (3) if one listens/reads media statements of Hamas members and representatives their religious and cultural beliefs include the fundamental thesis that all of the region that we now know as the ‘Middle East’ belong to Islamic communities, the very existence of the Jewish/Zionist state in the midst within the region as an aberration if not abomination. Based on that, it is Hamas doctrine to destroy Israel by shooting rockets and mortar shells at Israeli communities].

    In proceeding with this special parliamentary session on Gaza where govt and opposition take common stand to condemn Israel’s military incursion into Gaza, is there the comopn ground between govt and opposition on one of the roots of conflict – Israel’s claim to her right to exist as opposed to Hama’s claim that it does not?

    Can one proceed to condemn Israel’s military incursion into Gaza, skirting around and not addressing the root cause of this conflict expressed in 1, 2 and 3 above, when it clearly bears on the question of right of self defence guaranteed in UN charter raised by Israel to justify its actions, (it being the case that the answer to the question whether one exists and has right to remain so as a state must first be in the affirmative, before the next, “whether the incursion is legitimate self defence by international law and a proportionate response)?

    Does PR (Opposition) have common ground with the ruling government – and where do all of you stand – on the question of whether Isreal has the right to exist that Hamas says it does not?

  70. #70 by Tickler on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 12:12 pm

    “And this is nothing to do with whether the people are Jordanian or Palestinian,….” anti-kezaliman

    The PLO, Syrians, Jordanians etc. know better and much more than you:

    “The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct “Palestinian people” to oppose Zionism.

    For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.”

    – March 31, 1977, the Dutch newspaper Trouw published an interview with Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein.

    “You do not represent Palestine as much as we do. Never forget this one point: There is no such thing as a Palestinian people, there is no Palestinian entity, there is only Syria. You are an integral part of the Syrian people, Palestine is an integral part of Syria. Therefore it is we, the Syrian authorities, who are the true representatives of the Palestinian people”.

    – Syrian dictator Hafez Assad to the PLO leader Yassir Arafat
    [One good reason why hamas Chief Khalid Mashaal is based in Damascus, Syria]

  71. #71 by pulau_sibu on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 12:14 pm

    Talking about the middle east, the history of Morocco is well documented. When the Arabs came, they kicked out the black Africans, so called the Berbers. They were driven to the mountains. Even now, 30+% of the population in Morocco is composed of the Berbers, and the Arabs population is more than 60%. Before the Arabs, the Romans were in control of the area. You still see the ruined old Roman city in Volubilis. The Moroccans are fully aware of their history.

    However, in boleh, we have the race, perhaps from the middle east as well, who now call themselves the bumiputra. Sounds like the royal family of the middle east. They made themselves kings in the Arabic world!

  72. #72 by Tickler on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 12:23 pm

    e.g.: ISA-expert, Syed Hamid Albar, Bumiputra from Yemen.

  73. #73 by Jeffrey on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 12:39 pm

    ‘Whatever it is, the historical fact is, Palestine was home for millions indigenous people consisting of roughly 85% Muslims, 10% Christians and 5% Jews, up to 1948.’ – Anti-Kezaliman.

    So Anti-Kezaliman, you are arguing that you oppose the United Nation’s determination by UN resolution 181 passed in 1947 that brought into existence the State of Israel by partitioning of the British-ruled palestine mandate [75% to Jewish state, 25% to Arab] of that mandated land?

    The partition plan was approved by 33 to 13, with 10 abstentions.
    The 13 countries that voted against were: Afghanistan, Cuba, Egypt, Greece, India, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, Yemen; the 10 that abstained are: Argentina, Chile, China, Colombia, El Salvador, Ethiopia, Honduras, Mexico, United Kingdom, Yugoslavia.

    Our country wasn’t even independent in 1947 to take a position.

    What is Malaysia’s stand now? That is why I pose the above 3 questions necessitated by Hamas stand to destroy Israel.

    Being member and responsible international citizen of the Unitd Nation, and now calling a UN General Assembly meeting, surely we are abiding by UN resolution 181 passed by then “democratic” majority vote or we are not? :)

  74. #74 by Onlooker Politics on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 1:36 pm

    “A decade old issue?? I’m sorry but history did not start the day you were born.” (undergrad2)

    undergrad2,

    If we try to figure out what was actually wrong with the Jews in Israel and the Palestinians in Gaza, it might take us one whole year to do a research study in order to get some clues about the answer. Yet there will still not be any guarantee that a satisfactory and consensus answer shall be derived from the research study.

    By saying that the current Israel-Palestine conflict is “a decade-old issue”, I was actually trying to narrow down the source of the issue to one single culprit, i.e. Hamas, which was born only in 1987. I may be biased in this case. But I believe both Israeli Authority and the late Arafat Yassir’s political organization Fatah will surely agree with me to a certain extent that it was because of Hamas’s die-hard belligerent attitude towards the Jews that the intensified atmosphere of animosity had been escalated in Gaza for the past two decades.

    Hamas had been declared as terrorist organization by the Western Powers since its first establishment in 1987 by its involvement in the blood-shed conflicts in Lebanon during the same year. I will be very disappointed with DAP leadership if DAP MPs do not exercise at least some minimum level of reservation in showing their sympathy towards Hamas and do not attempt to condemn Hamas’s terrorist acts during Monday’s Parliamentary Meeting.

    Here are some decriptions on Hamas found in wikipedia:
    Notorious for its numerous suicide bombings and other attacks on Israeli civilians and security forces, Hamas also runs extensive social programs and has gained popularity in Palestinian society by establishing hospitals, education systems, libraries and other services throughout the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Hamas’ charter calls for the destruction of the State of Israel and its replacement with a Palestinian Islamic state in the area that is now Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip. Hamas describes its conflict with Israel as political and not religious or antisemitic. However, its founding charter, writings, and many of its public statements reflect the influence of antisemitic conspiracy theories.

  75. #75 by anti-kezaliman on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 2:44 pm

    “So Anti-Kezaliman, you are arguing that you oppose the United Nation’s determination by UN resolution 181 passed in 1947 that brought into existence the State of Israel by partitioning of the British-ruled palestine mandate [75% to Jewish state, 25% to Arab] of that mandated land?”

    Isn’t it the people’s right to self determine the political form that they wanted? They were legitimate owner of the lands and had been inhabiting it for centuries. Why suddenly the super-powers wanted to decide the fate of their country?

  76. #76 by Lee Wang Yen on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 3:48 pm

    Anti-kezaliman,

    ‘They were legitimate owner of the lands and had been inhabiting it for centuries. Why suddenly the super-powers wanted to decide the fate of their country?’

    Are you sure that the current Palestinians are the legitimate owner of the lands? That they have been there for centuries does not mean that those lands are originally theirs. The Jews lived there a few thousand years ago. Of course, the Jews took the land from the ancient Canaanites.

    Now if we want to claim that the current Palestinians are the legitimate owners, what’s our rationale? Are we saying that they are the aboriginal inhabitants? If being aboriginal inhabitants is a necessary condition for legitimate ownership, then by this standard neither the Indians, Chinese, nor Malays own Malaysia.

    Even if we accept this standard, are the current Palestinians the descendants of the aboriginal inhabitants? Who are the aboriginal inhabitants? I’ve got no idea. All I know is that the Jews took the land from the ancient Canaanites. But whether the ancient Caananites were the aboriginal inhabitants, I’ve got no idea.

    If we do not accept this standard, what are your criteria of ‘legitimate ownership’? Are you suggesting that a piece of land legitimately belongs to a community if they have been their for centuries? What about the fact that the Jews had lived in that part of the world for at least a thousand years before the Islamic rule?

    I think these historical issues have to be addressed if you appeal to history in discussing this topic.

  77. #77 by Jeffrey on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 3:53 pm

    So what does anti-kezaliman imply or mean by the last posting?

    You (anti-kezaliman) don’t accept the legitimacy of United Nations (UN) as a global association of governments facilitating cooperation in international law, security, economic development, and social equity?

    Or you accept UN’s legitimacy as a supra international organisation but you don’t accept its resolution 181 passed in 1947 that brought into existence the State of Israel passed by majority of 33 to 13 member countries with 10 abstentions.

    If you don’t, is it reconcilable with the much touted claims to workings of majority by majority vote as they always say here?

    Or you don’t want to abide by international law by UN, don’t acknowledge the right of Israel to exist as a state, and support Hamas to lobb some more rockets into Israel???

    Mind you when talking about superpowers imposing their will, at least two such – China and United Kingdom – were amongst the minority of 13 member countries voting against resolution 181!

  78. #78 by Lee Wang Yen on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 4:12 pm

    Jeffrey,

    Perhaps anti-kezaliman is suggesting that the UN partition resolution is unfair or unacceptable given that 85% (according to his claim) of the population up to 1948 was Muslims.

    Perhaps he is suggesting that the UN has violated the legitimate right of the Palestinians as owners of that land when they decided to partition that land and give a part of it to Jews (unless, perhaps, if the Jews were only given 5% of the land, and the Muslim Palestinians 85%).

    So the issue lies in whether the Palestinians are the legitimate owners. If he thinks that they are, what’s his rationale? Are the Palestinians aboriginal? He can only claim this if he can show that the Palestinians are descendants of the aboriginal inhabitants. But are they? If he appeals to the fact that Palestinians had inhabited that land for centuries up to 1948, what about the fact that Jews had lived there for at least a thousand years?

    If he thinks that all lands occupied by military conquests are illegitimate, then by the standard he can of course claim that Jews are not the legitimate owners of that land, since they took the land from the Caananites. However, one must also conclude that the current Palestinians are not the legitimate owners by this standard, UNLESS one can show that the current Palestinians are the descendants of the aboriginal inhabitants. By this standard no one can claim that that is a Muslim land, since the Muslim Arabs wrested the land from the Byzantine rulers.

  79. #79 by Lee Wang Yen on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 4:19 pm

    oops… ‘…if they have been THERE …’

    sorry!

  80. #80 by Tonberry on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 4:45 pm

    Sorry, i dont support this special meeting of Parliament on Monday.

    I would be sympathetic with Hamas and bow to assumption if Hamas were targeting anything military with all those rockets. But they aren’t. Hamas fired thousands of rockets into Israel. Those rockets were not targeting any military personnel/equipments/buildingsl. They are intentionally targeting civilians. If someone was throwing stones at your house and the police wouldn’t do anything about it. How long will you put up with it b4 you get a stick and start hitting at them?

    Obama said : “If somebody was sending rockets into my house where my two daughters sleep at night, I’m going to do everything in my power to stop that. I would expect Israelis to do the same thing.”

  81. #81 by Tickler on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 5:08 pm

    Anti-kezaliman,

    ‘They were legitimate owner of the lands and had been inhabiting it for centuries. Why suddenly the super-powers wanted to decide the fate of their country?’

    No, they are not any ancient people, but claim to be. They were born in a single day, after a war that lasted six days in 1967 c.e. If they were true Canaanites, they would speak Hebrew and demand from Syria to give them back their occupied homeland in Lebanon, but they are not. If they were Philistines, they would claim back the Isle of Crete from Greece and would recognize that they have nothing to do with the Land of Israel, and would ask excuses to Israel for having stolen the Ark of the Covenant.

  82. #82 by Jeffrey on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 5:17 pm

    Wang Yen,

    In bringing up UN resolution 181, it is my intention to establish/demarcate the cutting point at 1947 or otherwise we have to be mired in ancient history and its controversies regarding who settled and had legitimacy of first claim on the land, now the present Israel – the Arabs before 1947 setling there from military conquests, or the earlier Jews or the yet earlier Caananites, and those even earlier than the Caananites….

    It is necessary to draw the line and establish a valid benchmark, whether it be a settlement, a consideration by others of that as a tribe or nation, whether the type of social/economic organisation sufficed to satisfy that benchmark for legitimacy, and recognition of claims and so on.

    The benchmark is important and the controversial part because if that part is not probably defined – and agreed – there will be those who would argue that other than red indians, the rest of America have no legitimacy to be there (since they procured it by genocide of the indians), same goes in the case of Australia, New Zealand vis-a-vis aborigines there, and even here whether it was our first aborigines or Malays from time of Malacca Sultanate entitled to first claims to the country.

    For the lack of better criteria, I have set the benchmark at UN resolution 181 in 1947 for the legitimacy of the existence of the Jewish state.

    I next want to see whether there could be a serious and credible challenge from an objector like anti-kezaliman or others of like thinking and whether they could come out with a yet better benchmark by delving into the mists and controversies of earlier history.

    There I see that he gets into argument with you.

    Now if he argues that UN partition resolution is unfair or unacceptable given that 85% (according to his claim) of the population up to 1948 was Muslims, I have to ask whether he implies that we could treat the UN’s decision then as illegitimate and if so whether this opens a way for all and every member of international community not to abide by international law/rules/norms sanctioned by UN, and even flout them by shooting rockets just because these law/rules/norms are not in accord with our own sentiments of legitimacy, fairness and justice – ultimately whether it would pave a way to anarchy without world order sought to be secured by UN and its benchmarks.

  83. #83 by Jeffrey on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 5:33 pm

    It is also a question whether we as a nation or a people through our parliament ought or can, from standards of reasonableness, be ‘selective’ on issues relating to the UN and its decisions.

    For example, can we “respect” the UN and participate by calling for a UN General Assembly meeting and a resolution condemning Israel’s military incursion and yet refuse to acknowledge Israel’s right to self defence as provided in the UN Charter or refuse like Hamas to acknowledge even its right to exist as a nation state when UN resolution 181 was democratically by majority passed in 1947 establishing the present Israel by that same body, the UN?

    Can we (as member country) selectively abide or flout as we like the decisions, resolutions, norms and what constitute international law as determined by the United Nations?

  84. #84 by Onlooker Politics on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 5:48 pm

    Since the day humans attempted to build the Babe Tower in the Middle East in order to challenge God, God had already decided not to give humans any good common ground in order to unite among themselves, lest humans would dare God again for another challenge with the human unity power. Based on this belief, I would never expect any commentators in this blog to be able to finally draw a true/correct conclusion from their discussions in order to reach a consensus on the universally acceptable resolution for the Middle East Conflicts between the Jews and the Arabians.

    However, my main concern will always be that whether DAP shall continue to uphold its political principles of unreservedly condemning indiscriminate use of violence and terrorism against the civilians by any militant forces or police forces, no matter whether a confrontation has been happening in the situation of Middle East Conflicts between the Jews and the Arabians, or in the situation of Seri Lanka Conflicts between the Sinhalese and the Tamil, or in the situation of the Roadside Demonstration Conflicts between the Malaysian civilians and the Malaysian Police, or in the situation of conflicts during University Students Leadership Election between the election campaign workers and the University Security Guards.

    DAP must always send a clear message to the public that it is a peace-loving party and it will never tolerate any deviation practices that are deemed to be the infringement or encroachment of human rights and the violation of the freedom of being free from fear and intimidation of indiscriminate use of violence or terrorism by the gooligans’ hooligans.

  85. #85 by OrangRojak on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 7:17 pm

    Babe Tower?! I’m going there to see it! Where’s the nearest airport? Do they have egg and bacon there too? Right with you on the clear message on violence, OnPol.

    Did Obama really say that? (Tonberry, above)
    Well, that’s it, we’re all doomed. Cintanegara will be booking a flight to Washington tonight, building a DIY rocket launcher when he gets there, and shouting “Singapore! Singapore!” when they catch him.

  86. #86 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 7:41 pm

    Onlooker Politics Says:

    Today at 13: 36.18 (5 hours ago

    “By saying that the current Israel-Palestine conflict is “a decade-old issue”, I was actually trying to narrow down the source of the issue to one single culprit, i.e. Hamas, which was born only in 1987. I may be biased in this case.”

    There is little doubt that your ‘bias’ arithmetically defined should find support in Lee Wang Yen’s complex equations regarding the law of probability – somehow. What the rest of us beneficiaries of the country’s ‘attap’ or ‘new village’ or ‘estate’ education can do is to wait with bated breath!

  87. #87 by OrangRojak on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 7:49 pm

    Obama’s quote was from 5 months ago, according to some online articles. He repeated it at the end of December?

    I wonder if he’s going to stick by his “everything in my power”? Whatever else, Obama giving Israel a blank cheque to do what they please is going to please Israel. I think it’s a serious error on the part of a leader to grant unquestioning support – who knows what might happen, with his explicit agreement?

  88. #88 by Tickler on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 8:28 pm

    Some needless fretting over Obama who has promised a “contiguous palestine state” which would mean dividing Israel in half.

    Barack Obama’s comments were made before a gathering of more than 7,000 delegates at the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) 2008 Policy Conference revealing much about his true attitude towards Israel and the not-so-secret agenda of his foreign policy advisors.

    ‘”Let me be clear,” Obama declared to his pro-Israel audience, “Israel’s security is sacrosanct. It is non-negotiable. The Palestinians need a state that is contiguous and cohesive, and that allows them to prosper – but any agreement with the Palestinian people must preserve Israel’s identity as a Jewish state, with secure, recognized and defensible borders.”

    A careful parsing of the passage suggests that either he was calling for all Palestinian towns on the West Bank to be linked territorially, something that already exists, or more likely that in any final peace deal Hamas-controlled Gaza must be connected to the West Bank via a land bridge.

    ‘In fact, the Obama statement was a reformulation of a key Palestinian demand that if implemented, would erode not only the geographic continuity of the Jewish State, but could undermine its security as well.

    “The Palestinians need a state that is contiguous and cohesive?” It demonstrates a conspicuous break with longstanding American policy.

  89. #89 by OrangRojak on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 8:39 pm

    “The Palestinians need a state that is contiguous and cohesive?”
    They’re all going to be shipped to Jordan

  90. #90 by Tickler on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 8:45 pm

    Fatuous

  91. #91 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 9:08 pm

    Lee Wang Yen Says:

    Today at 16: 12.49 (4 hours ago

    “Perhaps he is suggesting that the UN has violated the legitimate right of the Palestinians as owners of that land when they decided to partition that land and give a part of it to Jews (unless, perhaps, if the Jews were only given 5% of the land, and the Muslim Palestinians 85%). So the issue lies in whether the Palestinians are the legitimate owners. If he thinks that they are …”

    Blah, blah, blah …..!

    Again we have lessons in logical thinking pushed down our throats like we are students fresh out of kindergarten! If human conflicts through the ages could be solved by lessons in logical thinking then Lee Wang Yen is a prophet.

    Who needs bigots to tell us that through Moses God led the Israelites out of Egypt and out of prosecution, made them His chosen people and promised Judea (southern part of ancient Palestine) i.e. land inhabited by the Canaanites?

    Canaan, as any student of the Torah, Bible and Koran would tell you, was the son of Ham, the son of Noah and Ham had seen his father naked and in a drunken stupor and was cursed for it – ever since referred to as the Curse of Ham ( no relation to the Son of Sam, a more recent creation).

  92. #92 by Lee Wang Yen on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 9:18 pm

    Which of the principles of logic and reasoning that I have mentioned in this blog are suitable for kindergarten students? Expected values? Inductive inference?

    Undergrad2 has shown his habit of boldly asserting things that he doesn’t know. For example, he falsely claims that I have a PhD in the philosophy of religion even though he doesn’t know me.

    Now, he is making an absurd exaggeration.

  93. #93 by OrangRojak on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 9:25 pm

    What’s fatuous?Don’t be a pompous twit. I answered the question you would have asked if you had got your quotation and question marks in the right order.

    It is one possible answer to the question – and there are many more ‘solutions’ to the problems of that region.

    As for Obama’s promise, it can be interpreted many ways – at least two of which could be accomplished without conceding any of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank and without dividing the land currently claimed by Israel. Admittedly unlikely though they may be, they are 2 of many possible solutions admitted by “contiguous”.

  94. #94 by Tickler on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 9:43 pm

    If someone is being fatuous , I say so, not mince my words. If it hurts that person, too bad. And if i`m “pompous” because that person is hurt, why then, so be it.

  95. #95 by Lee Wang Yen on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 9:53 pm

    Undergrad2 says:
    ‘Again we have lessons in logical thinking pushed down our throats like we are students fresh out of kindergarten! If human conflicts through the ages could be solved by lessons in logical thinking then Lee Wang Yen is a prophet.’

    Undergrad2 is making a very problematic assumption. He has shown a tendency to rashly attack people on the basis of some very bad assumptions. He assumes that if someone emphasises the importance of X in an aspect of Y, he must be claiming that X is sufficient for all aspects of Y.

    But why in the world should we make such an unreasonable assumption? Someone who emphasises the importance of X in an aspect of Y might just be claiming that X is necessary for an aspect of Y.

    Undergrad2 has been saying things like this. ‘When people are discussing politics, this guy keeps talking about logic and rational philosophising. He must be thinking that his logic and philosophy CAN (i.e. is sufficient to) solve political problems.’

    I wonder whether he will reason in the same way when he goes to an engineering lecture in which the lecturer talks about things like logic gate and some mathematical theories. Will he reason in the following way: ‘When people are talking about how to build a bridge, this guy keeps talking about logic and mathematics. He must be thinking that these theoretical things CAN (i.e. is sufficient to) solve practical problems like building bridges.’

    Who needs someone who has an unabashed readiness to assert falsehoods and attack people on bad assumptions to tell us that logic and maths are insufficient to solve practical problems, even in physics and engineering – we certainly need other knowledge and aspects, such as people management etc. But does the engineering lecturer deny this when he emphasises logic and some mathematical theories?

    Why think that someone who emphasises the importance of logical reasoning in discussing political issues must be claiming that logical reasoning is sufficient for all aspects of politics, and can thus solve all political problems?

    Who is being naive here?

    Undergrad2 has been rashly claiming that I’ve only been talking about ideologies and am oblivious to pragmatism. I suggest he take some time to read about decision theory and pragmatism. Both are philosophical topics. And remember, no one claims that they are sufficient for solving all the problems in this world. But the fact that they are necessary for a rational handling of of many problems in this world is sufficient to demand some attention from us.

  96. #96 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 9:57 pm

    Oh Gawd….!! I’m outta here!!

  97. #97 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 10:03 pm

    Will somebody please pass me the vomit bag!

  98. #98 by Lee Wang Yen on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 10:04 pm

    Oxford University, the great bastion of analytic philosophy, does not offer a BA programme in Politics, Philosophy, and Economy (PPE) for no reason.

    Perhaps Undergrad2 should suggest to Oxford that they should remove philosophy from the PPE programme, for according to him, philosophy has no use to practical things like politics (and perhaps also economy)

  99. #99 by OrangRojak on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 10:05 pm

    You have been pompous because you use phrases like ‘Some needless fretting’ – a dismissal of a point of view. You have been pompous because your ‘careful parsing’ led you to state a fact that was a simple error, in fact. You have been pompous because you dismissed a reply as fatuous that was a good-humoured attempt to draw your attention to alternative interpretations of the article you quoted.

    Your copy-and-pasted articles on these Gaza-related threads have turned what I was expecting to be a lively, multi-faceted debate into a turgid slog.

  100. #100 by Lee Wang Yen on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 10:08 pm

    Economics

  101. #101 by Tickler on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 10:14 pm

    Fatuous remains where it applies despite the dissimulation of one who slogs turgidly.

  102. #102 by OrangRojak on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 10:23 pm

    Lee Wang Yen! I’m sorry about the program comment, it was intended to allude to a fear that I feel is impolite to suggest openly. The fear is entirely neutral as it concerns your person and character, but negative where it concerns a dialogue between you and I.

    The difference between the scenario in your ‘bridge’ analogy and some of the topics you’ve been applying your analytical skills to is that in the case of the bridge, engineers would all agree (with a safety factor) that all the contributing phenomena in the bridge’s design are well-characterised. Those objecting to your analysis, are I think (because I don’t know), objecting on the basis that you have to make some assumptions that are sometimes difficult to accept. I vividly recall my first year AI lecturer using propositional logic to prove that God does not exist, and the needless uproar it caused in the lecture theatre. I think you may be witnessing a similar response.

  103. #103 by Lee Wang Yen on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 10:34 pm

    OrangRojak,

    The fundamental methodological principles of current best science abound with controversies.

    Many scientists believe in scientific realism, i.e. the claim that well-confirmed theories in mature science are probably approximately true. But to defend this thesis you’ll need to deal with a lot of assumptions.

  104. #104 by Lee Wang Yen on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 10:40 pm

    By the way, OrangRojak, I have no idea what you are referring to when you mention the ‘program comment’, which is ‘intended to allude to a fear’.

    I don’t remember having any conversation with you on this.

    The bridge analogy appears in my response to Undergrad2, and I wonder how that is related to the so-called ‘program comment’ which was ‘intended to allude to a fear’. Did you make this comment at all? Which comment is that?

  105. #105 by OrangRojak on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 10:54 pm

    Don’t post so quickly, I don’t think that fast.

    I’m unable to find that quote – did I imagine posting it? Perhaps I’ve been so indirect I don’t even know what I commented. Hang on, I’ll search for it.

    I don’t know any ‘Scientific Realists’ – are they new? I hope we won’t have an argument about what ‘probably approximately true’ means. I’m not looking forward to that at all.

  106. #106 by OrangRojak on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 11:11 pm

    How interesting… the page is in Google’s cache, but the keywords in the comment don’t index the page. I suspect the “Cached” link on Google’s result page actually fetches the page again. Or perhaps the clever people at Google have implemented a ‘fatuous’ filter.

    Brute force turned up the page:

    It’s on the dap-boycott-kuala-terengganu-by-election-over-hudud thread, #comment-152882

    It wasn’t a conversation, I was hoping undergrad2 was going to stop provoking you.

  107. #107 by hongsichuan on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 11:42 pm

    Undergrad2 must have vomitting incessantly now… and probably not well to be here to read this. Or he might have been quietly still following all the postings here.

    His earlier remark “I think many of us have had enough of his … on this blog. Many of us have had to rush for the door everytime he walks in lest we run short of our supply of fresh air” reveals a few things.

    For one, he would have been more gentlemanly if he has known that he should be writing “her” and “she” in place of “his” and “he” respectively in his remark.

    Even so, it is easy to understand why Undergrad2 is turned off by the pompous intellectual behaviours shown by Ms Lee.

  108. #108 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 11:54 pm

    A guy with a gal’s name??? Lemee outta here – again!!

  109. #109 by hongsichuan on Thursday, 8 January 2009 - 11:57 pm

    Oops.. I must have got the wrong Lee wang Yen. But it seems undergrad2 did not get out whe he said he was getting out…

  110. #110 by undergrad2 on Friday, 9 January 2009 - 12:03 am

    AhPek Says:

    January 1st, 2009 (1 week ago) at 09: 33.58
    See what I mean undergrad,he never misses any opportunity to display his prowess at sizing everything globally.Bloviating? Of course he will use his inductive reasoning,syllogistic arguments or maybe Boolean algebra that you are wrong.In simple language which only ordinary mortals like us know he has become a pain in the ass to quite a few people in this blog,and I don’t mind telling him so straight in the face!”

  111. #111 by undergrad2 on Friday, 9 January 2009 - 12:05 am

    hongsichuan Says:

    Yesterday at 23: 57.41
    Oops.. I must have got the wrong Lee wang Yen. But it seems undergrad2 did not get out whe he said he was getting out…”

    The actus reus in the crime of rape??

  112. #112 by owlz on Friday, 9 January 2009 - 12:42 am

    The Crusades originally had the goal of recapturing Jerusalem and the Holy Land from Muslim rule… and were launched in response to a call from the Eastern Orthodox Byzantine Empire for help against the expansion of the Muslim Seljuk Turks into Anatolia… The Muslim presence in the Holy Land began with the initial Arab conquest of Palestine in the 7th century…
    .
    Once inside the city of Antioch, the Franks (Christians crusaders) then massacred the civilians, destroyed mosques and pillaged the city… The Franks or Frankish people were West Germanic tribes first identified in the 3rd century… The crusaders finally marched to the walls of Jerusalem with only a fraction of their original forces…
    .
    The Jews and Muslims fought together to defend Jerusalem against the invading Franks… They were unsuccessful though and on 15 July 1099 the crusaders entered the city… Again, they proceeded to massacre the remaining Jewish and Muslim civilians and pillaged or destroyed mosques and the city itself…
    .
    p/s: And it continued now until 2009… Already thousands years…

  113. #113 by undergrad2 on Friday, 9 January 2009 - 1:09 am

    hongsichuan Says:

    Yesterday at 23: 57.41
    “Oops.. I must have got the wrong Lee wang Yen. But it seems undergrad2 did not get out whe he said he was getting out…”

    SiChuan,

    For there to be a crime, there must be a double coincidence of the ‘actus reus’ and the relevant ‘mens rea’ of the crime. Sometimes you may have committed the actus reus of the crime but without the required mens rea it is not a crime. In the crime of rape, the actus reus would be penetration.

    I do not believe any of us here wants to penetrate Lee and his logical thinking.

  114. #114 by waterfrontcoolie on Friday, 9 January 2009 - 1:16 am

    You know, the way Malaysians address this issue makes one laugh. One party refers to the will of ‘Heaven’ and wants to do the other party in; forgetting that the other party also refers to their ‘Heavenly Will’.
    What have we to offer? If you just look at the posters put up by those guys who organised the ‘Ketuanan Melayu’ gatherings; what are they talking of? ReasonS? Pure Emotions!
    Don’t forget the English Saying’ every dog has its day’.
    History is history, if everyone wants to refer to history, I don’t think this world can find a moment of peace.
    Gandhi may be quoted right, but do refer the context he said that. Even Mao preferred guns to elections after having being chased by Chiang through the mountains of China. Upon victory he could say that doctrine. had Chiang captured him, he would not have a chance to say it! Yes the victor will rewrite history!

  115. #115 by tjwork on Friday, 9 January 2009 - 4:00 am

    Hi, Many of you are clueless on whats really happening.

    We have 2 sides talking as if they know everything, 1 on the jewish Israel & 2 on the Islamic pseudo palestina side. The problem is NO ONE is on the victims side.

    There are phd courses dedicated to middle eastern history, and the history is very ugly.

    Ever since the arab countries lost the wars against israel, they are finding ways to even up the score. What we have here today are 2 phases or a proxy war.

    The surrounding arab countries promised the refugees homage & a new beginning prompting many promises but instead were denied everything. They instead try to go back but israel only accepted arabs that stayed with them before the war or those with ties.

    Every arab leader also promised & deceived one another. the greatest loser was Jordan.

    Today, Gaza is the proxy for Egypt & West Bank is the proxy for Jordan. If they dont do this, both of these countries would be attacked. Even the Jordan’s king (the decendent of islams prophet) was shot by a muslim from palestine. Ask why hasnt these countries try to annex them or enable them to form a new goverment with basic esprit de core?

    These palestines are treated beyond rubbish and dogs by arab muslims themselves.

    Do not believe the mass media about this conflict, If you are old enough to go through self studies, all these media were propagated with an end message. You will only fool youself.

    What malaysians dont understand is that Malaya came to independence due to the acts of the jewish freedom fighters and from Israel. (dont ask me, find it yourself). They pretty much invented modern terrorism for liberation from the british. The same tactics were quickly copied from algeria to malaya (from the communist).

    As for the refugees, they are not from cannan or the ancient palestine. A study that took many people dna across the globe were compared with dna from the dead, cross referenced to fond their geo origins. Guess what, not one turned up from ancient palestine.

    These poor guys are from other arab countries that settled after each arab conquest.

    This conflict is also a show & pay war. It literally means, start a war, ensure high collateral damage among women & children, Start a media frenzy coverage & get DONATIONS IN MILLIONS. They make an average of 2 billion USD a year in donations. Divide that with the number of refugees that live in makeshift houses with rats and roaches.

    My question, Where does these money go to?

    Israel is not the real enemy here. If it is ask any muslim living in Israel for any complaints? you will get none. The muslims there have more rights than non muslims in malaysia.

    The IDF is no doubt guilty in many counts in handling palestine rough necks. If they turn their backs, they would be captured & amputated, NO JOKE. So their frustrations are targeted to suspects & the IDF solders that were caught were court marshaled.

    If arabs can attack & defend themselves, why cant the jews & israel defend themselves.

    Many muslim leaders in middle east are undeniably quoting the outcome that jews will be killed by muslims. Why such hostility for over 1000 years if all they want is to have peace?

    I am for the victims side. I took this side after careful study and years of correspondence with my palestine & israeli friends. I urge you to do the same & free palestine from the real invaders.

  116. #116 by HJ Angus on Friday, 9 January 2009 - 9:41 am

    It is a sheer waste of time for our MPs to discuss the Palestine issue – they can’t even debate properly on recent laws that were so hurriedly rushed through.
    And the Minister for Education will be wasting precious time of our school children by involving them to create some kind of wave that will force Isreal to back down – better the energy is spent solving the problems with good teachers for teaching English.
    Here is another reason why our leaders cannot contribute anything to solving religious or political problems.
    http://malaysiawatch4.blogspot.com/2009/01/malaysiakini-and-why-malaysia-cannot.html

    Hell, we can’t even build a proper CIQ for JB after 5 years!

  117. #117 by zak_hammaad on Friday, 9 January 2009 - 11:08 am

    Once again, Israel has opened the gates of hell to the Palestinians. 44 refugees dead in a UN school, 3 more in another on Wednesday.

    What is amazing is that so many Western leaders, so many presidents and prime ministers and, I fear, so many editors and journalists, bought the old LIE; that Israelis take such great care to avoid civilian casualties!

    Have we forgotten the 17,500 dead – almost all civilians (mostly children & women) in Israel’s 1982 invasion of Lebanon; the 1,700 Palestinian civilian dead in Sabra-Chatila massacre; the 1996 Qana massacre of 106 Lebanese civilian refugees (more than half children) at a UN base; the massacre of Marwahin refugees who were ordered from their homes by Israelis in 2006 then slaughtered by an Israeli helicopter; the 1,000 dead of the same 2006 bombardment & Lebanese invasion, almost all civilians?

    There has been no evidence that Hamas has used human shields. The fact is, as previously noted, Gaza is a small piece of property that is densely populated. Israel engages in indiscriminate warfare such as the assassination of Nizar Rayan, in which members of his family were also murdered. It is victims like his dead children that Israel defines as “human shields” in its propaganda. Pricision bombing is also a lie.

    There is no legitimacy for this interpretation under international law. In circumstances such as these, Hamas is not using human shields, Israel is committing war crimes in violation of the Geneva Conventions and other applicable international law.

  118. #118 by pulau_sibu on Friday, 9 January 2009 - 1:04 pm

    Najib: We will continue to support Palestinians

    what did he say?
    We will continue to support Palestinians
    We will continue to support Hamas?
    We will continue to support terrorists?

  119. #119 by Lee Wang Yen on Friday, 9 January 2009 - 5:04 pm

    Hamas Does Not Use Human Shields?

    Read the following news article from Jerusalem Post

    Jan 8, 2009 18:11 | Updated Jan 8, 2009 23:34
    IDF unveils Hamas map seized in Gaza
    By YAAKOV KATZ

    Paratroopers in northern Gaza have uncovered a map prepared by Hamas that shows how the terror group prepared for the IDF’s incursion by deploying different types of bombs as well as snipers throughout the town of Atatra.

    IDF Chief Intelligence Officer Brig.-Gen. Yuval Halamish presents the Hamas map during a press conference in Tel Aviv on Thursday.

    “On the map, the terrorists also marked sniper positions, as well as the location of roadside bombs, antitank bombs and land mines,” Chief Intelligence Officer Brig.-Gen. Yuval Halamish said on Thursday.

    The map was discovered by soldiers from the Paratroop Brigade during operations in Atatra and was translated in the field and used to minimize casualties.

    Halamish said the map showed how Hamas does not hesitate to use civilian infrastructure for its terrorist activity. A brown dot marked next to a mosque represents a sniper position.

    “This is a civilian area, and you can see on the map how Hamas booby-trapped the entrance to homes to hit the IDF,” Halamish said.

    In another case, a large bomb was marked next to a gas station. Had it been detonated it would have likely destroyed the gas station, killing and wounding civilians who live in the area.

    In another case, soldiers discovered a mannequin dressed like a soldier at the entrance to a home, Halamish said.

    Had soldiers entered the home, the mannequin would have exploded, collapsing the floor and causing the troops to fall into a tunnel, where Hamas men would have tried to abduct them.

    Photo: Yaakov Katz

    Slideshow: Gaza op, Day 13 The handwritten map is based on a bird’s-eye view of the town, likely taken from Google Maps. On the map, Hamas split the town into three sectors – red, blue and green – and highlighted important sites such as mosques, a gas station and a fuel depot.

  120. #120 by Jeffrey on Friday, 9 January 2009 - 5:06 pm

    According to Malaysiakini Team’s report | Jan 9, 09 2:38pm,

    “5,000 people started their march from the Tabung Haji building – located less than a kilometre away from the embassy – right after the Friday prayers”, and

    “Dr Mahathir Mohamad addressed some 500 people in condemning the Israeli invasion into Gaza. He repeated his calls for a boycott of American products and their currency.

    “People should boycott McDonalds and Starbucks for a month,” he said.

    He also urged people to leave their jobs from American firms.”

    Is TDM going to offer jobs to those who leave their jobs from American firms?

    Who owns McDonalds and Starbucks? Our local interest – under franchise.

    TDM did not mention KFC unlike Titiwangsa Umno division deputy youth head Nazir Hussin Akhtar Husin who said his division would propose to the government to impose a nationwide week-long business shutdown on KFC, Starbucks and McDonalds – all American companies.

    KFC Malaysia is majority bumiptra owned. The call hurts locals.

  121. #121 by wesuffer on Friday, 9 January 2009 - 5:11 pm

    BOYCOTT US PRODUCT IN MALAYSIA SHOULD NOT A GOOD SOLUTION. AND ITS WONT STOP ISRAEL ATTACKING PALASTINES.
    BOYCOTT IN OWN COUNTRY WILL INVOLVED MORE VICTIM.
    WHO IS THE OWNER OF MALAYSIA STARBUCK. ? IS BELONG TO BERJAYA.. BERJAYA IS MALAYSIAN TOO.
    WHY WANT TO PROTEST IN MALAYSIA IF WE NOT HAPPY WITH US ? WHY WANT TO MAKE UNPEACEFUL IN MALAYSIA. WE SHOULD BE PROUD LIVING IN PEACEFUL COUNTRY MALAYSIA BUT NOT PROTEST AND BURN FLAG TO AGAINTS PUBLIC ORDER. TO ME THIS IS NOT A HERO.
    ALL MALAYSIAN SHOULD START DONATION CAMPAIGN FOR PALASTINES

  122. #122 by vsp on Friday, 9 January 2009 - 9:14 pm

    Aija, debating the Palestinian issue in Parliament? Talk, talk and more talk.

    Action please – send the 3 million Hamas-worshipping UMNO members to Palestine and fight the Israelis. Then each one of them can go to heaven and claim 72 virgins each.

  123. #123 by Justitia on Friday, 9 January 2009 - 9:20 pm

    Jeffrey and We Suffer, both of you are absolutely right about boycotting. This is a “wet dream” juvenile gesture that is basically cutting off your nose to spite your face. I worked for an American multinational and have no plans to quit. In fact, I will keep on frequenting KFC, McDonalds, drink Coke, etc.

    We need to keep our focus on supporting our locals in this difficult economic times. We are just expanding too much energy on this distraction that has no strategic value to M’sia.

  124. #124 by OrangRojak on Saturday, 10 January 2009 - 12:10 am

    Soooo… does this mean the end of all those nasty, nasty Windows-based gov.my websites? Am I going to be able to browse them reliably with my non-Internet Explorer browser, now that the government is boycotting US companies? It would be interesting to see what major contracts the government won’t be signing with US firms this year.

    MERCY Malaysia seem to be doing some good work with medical assistance in Gaza, perhaps if we save some money on a copy of Windows or Office this month and use Ubuntu instead (plug… plug…), we could send some of our saving their way. I’m a virgin when it comes to trusted avenues for donation in Malaysia, I hope someone will set me straight if I’ve erred.

    I feel sorry for the franchisees who are caught up in this mess, that must be a pure ‘wtf?’ moment for them.

  125. #125 by undergrad2 on Saturday, 10 January 2009 - 3:24 am

    Yes, liquidate Petronas’s investments in securities denominated in US dollars. Stop raising loans in the world’s capital market in US dollars. Stop local banks from issuing letters of credit or L/Cs in US dollars and stop accepting L/Cs in US dollars. Stop discounting dollar denominated export/import bills. The mix of BNM’s forex reserves should not include US dollars.

    That’s how stupid the idea is!

  126. #126 by k1980 on Saturday, 10 January 2009 - 6:16 pm

    Yeah, all Malaysians boycott Microsoft, Intel, Boeing, resign en masse from Motorola, Agilent, Western Digital, Dell and pull all our students from American universities. Ban all American movies and serials from Malaysian cinemas and TV. Replace them with those from Indonesia. Import camels from Saudi Arabia to replace the Boeings. We can always fix made-in-Malaysia wings onto the camels to make them fly.

  127. #127 by undergrad2 on Saturday, 10 January 2009 - 6:23 pm

    That’s logical thinking!

  128. #128 by undergrad2 on Saturday, 10 January 2009 - 6:30 pm

    “Import camels from Saudi Arabia to replace the Boeings.”

    You need to consult the Malaysian Association of Camel Importers because the ones imported so far are those you get to see on the menu.

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