Eye specialist problem – another multiracial problem


Letters
by Dr. LMK

I am an eye specialist (ophthalmologist) currently practising in UK, I
cannot come home because of my specialist degree.

“FRCS(Glasgow) in Ophthalmology” (hereinafter refer as FRCS) is a
specialist degree recognised by the whole world, the eye specialist
must go through a proper training and exam in order to get this
degree. Many eye specialists in many are holding this degree
including our famous eye specialists in Tun Hussain Onn Eye Hospital.

FRCS was confered by 4 boards, ie, Edinburgh, London, Ireland and
Glasgow. In 1999, UK has decided to change its training service due
to the European Union. FRCS exam was be replaced by MRCS exam. For
your information, MRCS is not a recognised degree in Malaysia.
However, Glasgow board is STILL offering this exam for this degree
until NOW.

In 2003, this group of bureaucrats in the specialty board of
ophthalmology of Academy of Medicine (the specialist board for KKM)
has declared that FRCS (Glasgow) is no longer recognised as a
postgraduate degree, holder of this degree will not be listed in the
specialist register. They forwarded their decision to Cawangan
Pembangunan Profesyen, Bahagian Perkimbangan Perubatan, KKM. Datuk
Dr. Abdul Gani (the deputy DG at that time) issued this circular – Bil
(104) dlm KKM 87 (P13.221) Bhg 3 dated 23/3/05.

There was a bit of “noise”, they have decided that those graduated
before 2003 will be recognised, those graduated between 2004 to 2005
will be case by case basis, those graduated after 2005 will not be
entertained. Recently they even amended it further that those
graduated after 1993 will not be recognised. (please look under
“Ophthalmology” section –
http://www.nsr.org.my/azRecognisedListDetail.jsp

For your information, KKM has been employing a lot of expatriates with
unrecognised master degree practising in their hospitals as a
specialist. They are all given 6 months period of gazettement (a
period of monitoring for KKM doctor) to be a specialist. This is for
the fulfillment of the Perintah-perintah Am dan Arahan Pentadbiran –
Bab F, Pelbagai V, sesi 27 (a), (b)(i) and (b)(ii).

Some of our friends did ask them for the reason. These bureaucrats
said that the local Master program has recently (2003?) changed to 4
years instead of previously 3, so FRCS is no longer recognised.
Remember, these bureaucrats spent their 3 years master program last
time. If they de-recognise this degree, they should de-recognise
themselves.

When Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Glasgow knew about
this comment, they changed their curriculum immediately(in 2004) to
4.5 years instead of previously 3. RCSGlasgow has, in fact, amended
their system to suit their need!!! What more excuse they have?

Why an unrecognised degree could be gazetted and FRCS is not able to?
Why they want to de-recognise a UK degree that they also have? I
think Malaysian government is treating the expatriate better than
their own citizen.

Uncle Lim, our country is very short of doctors, eye specialist is
very deprived, why they still want to impose such regulation? Those
bureaucrats are holding this degree !!!

Why they want to de-recognise this degree? Do we have enough of eye
specialist in Malaysia? They have gone through the same training
format as us, why they de-recognise this training?

Many of us (Malays, Chinese and Indians) are holding this degree in UK
dying to come home, some of our friends in Malaysia with this degree
are not able to register as a specialist. MCA and UMNO refused to
entertain them, KKM is ignoring them, my friends in UK and Malaysia
are very helpless at the moment.

  1. #1 by max2811 on Thursday, 20 March 2008 - 11:04 am

    Go and practise in Spore. It pays well and it’s nearer to home. A few of my friends did the same. A Harvard grad but not taken in by UM and UKM. Just bcos she’s Chinese! Now, she’s a professor in NUS. Many Heads Of Depts in NUS and NTU are staffed by Msian Chinese who not good enough to UM, USM or UKM.

  2. #2 by max2811 on Thursday, 20 March 2008 - 11:05 am

    correction- ….who are not good enough for…

  3. #3 by BlueBear on Thursday, 20 March 2008 - 11:21 am

    It’s obvious that specialist postgraduate degrees from UK are deficient and do not meet the extremely high standards requirements of the Malaysian hospitals.

  4. #4 by leealex24 on Thursday, 20 March 2008 - 11:34 am

    I’m neutral towards UK. But, post-graduate degrees from UK and deficient? Hmm…Uncle Lim, perhaps this is one incident or in general, issue on education policies that we could potentially bring forward in parliament. It’s really saddening that our policies today is almost done in a way to intentionally cause “brain drain”. I read a research report earlier that despite Malaysia being economically stronger and have better infrastructure etc, we are still behind some of our neighboring countries like Indonesia and Thailand in terms of quality of labor. Of course, at the end of the day, it’s the country across the causeway that will benefit from our deficiencies.

  5. #5 by P.O.T.S on Thursday, 20 March 2008 - 11:36 am

    The Health Ministry of Tanah Melayu is trying to control the racial composition of specialists in the country.

    It’s all part of the NEP/Ketuanan Melayu agenda.

    When they de-recognise the external post-graduate qualifications, more non-Malays will be forced to work outside the country.

    That is why the MRCP will soon be derecognised too.

    That is why only Malaysia has the Skim Latihan Akademik Bumiputera (SLAB) that trains only Malays to be specialists and lecturers.

    There may not be actual ethnic cleansing in Malaysia, but there is forced emmigration trhough all these subtle mechanisms.

    http://unwantedcitizen.blogspot.com/2008/03/slab-another-reason-to-slap-bn-in-face.html

  6. #6 by hasilox on Thursday, 20 March 2008 - 11:42 am

    LMK says,
    “Many of us (Malays, Chinese and Indians) are holding this degree in UK dying to come home…”

    Better to feel “dying to come home” than to feel dead at home :P

  7. #7 by HJ Angus on Thursday, 20 March 2008 - 11:48 am

    Guess if one wants to look at the discrimination, hundreds of foreign law graduates struggle to pass the Malaysian Bar exams while local grads are exempt.

    What those disgruntled Malaysians in Singapore should do is to register now to vote in JB as Johore could be the next frontline state in the next elections.

  8. #8 by standfair on Thursday, 20 March 2008 - 12:45 pm

    One reason could be UMNO wants more blind people and you are a threat…mm

  9. #9 by Papayamilk on Thursday, 20 March 2008 - 1:05 pm

    BlueBear,

    Are you sure? You really make me wana laugh.

  10. #10 by Samuel Goh Kim Eng on Thursday, 20 March 2008 - 1:18 pm

    When we want to discuss about “brain drain”
    Let’s try to separate the brains from the drains
    So that real brains will not suffer from the strains
    Of all the illogical logic that leaves behind stains

    (C) Samuel Goh Kim Eng – 200308
    http://MotivationInMotion.blogspot.com
    http://msi.Rocky101.com
    Thur. 20th March 2008.

  11. #11 by choonchoy on Thursday, 20 March 2008 - 1:21 pm

    Before you come back you should consider the cost of raising children in this country. Consider also d pay, purchasing power n future of your children.
    Uk treats its PRs better than M’sia her citizens.

  12. #12 by BoycottLocalPapers on Thursday, 20 March 2008 - 1:58 pm

    Yes, I agree with the suggestion above that Dr. LMK should find a job in Singapore if he wants to be close to home.


    1.00 USD = 1.38670 SGD
    1.00 USD = 3.18721 MYR
    1.00 SGD = 2.29843 MYR

    I am now looking for a job in Singapore. Can’t get a job in Malaysia.

  13. #13 by ablastine on Thursday, 20 March 2008 - 2:16 pm

    Ai yah what is the problem. Go to Singapore, rent a shop in Mt Elizabeth Hospital and start printing money. Eye surgeons and plastic surgeons are top earners in Singapore because everybody is rushing to have lasik and plastic surgery done to look more beautiful. You advertise yourself as the best in the world (advertisement allowed in Singapore) in the news paper, webpage, brochures, yellow pages etc. Call your clinic some sort of bombastic Centre and charge whatever amount you like. Singapore does not control the charges of doctors. Patients even has no ground to complain even they know they are have been severely taken advantage off and overcharged. The just threw out the Guidelines of fees for doctors. In fact you can do anything you like and recommend controversial operations just to fatten your wallet because control on indications of operations there is almost zero, especially in the private sector. However, this is probably the same too in Malaysia. Doctors words are mandates from heaven. Your status immediately goes up by working in Singapore and can command a few times higher in fees compare to Malaysia. FRCS (Glasgow) is fully recognised there and registration is a sure thing. I have a few friends who earn more than a million Singapore dollars a MONTH just doing simple lasik and cataract operations. Most can afford 5 to 15 million bungalows within a couple of years. Plastic surgeons also earn that much there. Why bother yourself with the cumbersome registration in Malaysia. You must know by now that a great proportion of senior doctors practicing in Singapore are actually Malaysian. I think even if half of them return, it would have solved the specialist shortage in Malaysia. What Malaysia discard, especially human talents, Singapore keep and nuture them. No problem for Malaysian students with top score and cannot get local scholarships. There are plenty of scholarships from the government and private institutions in Singapore.

  14. #14 by One4All4One on Thursday, 20 March 2008 - 2:16 pm

    Allow a little digression cos i am not well versed with the field of opthamology and the requirements to practise in the country.
    Therefore, the digression.

    Well, instead of talking about Course of study/Requirement relation, i would like to discuss about ‘vision’ as in being farsighted / shortsighted in one’s outlook about issues of concern to us all.

    The current impasse and difficulty in setting up government especially in the states won by the PKR/DAP/PAS ( let’s call them the BR)coalition is a case in point. And the people who demonstrated in protesting certain policies. And also about the role of the royalty in the power equation.

    Due to SHORT-SIGHTEDNESS, the political parties be it in the BN/BR, find it difficult to come to terms with one another to form a sound government. Self-interest is always the element in causing differences, albeit the difference in ideologies. It is also the inability of being truly multi-racial in words and deeds that cause differences and problems which should not have arisen at all if there are true intentions of serving the people. Self-interest always seems to rear its ugly head and reveal the true colours of the players.

    WIth a clear aim in mind, the political parties should quickly put aside differences and get down to work. Once the formalities of forming the government are done with, policies and scope of duties should be reviewed. What were wrong should be righted; what were good should be improved on. Go down to the ground, and meet the REAL people and find out about the REAL issues which are confronting them. So as not to over-look the REAL reasons to fight to form the government, and to defend one’s ideology.

    The power that be should come out of their cocoon and advise their supporters to stop disturbing the peace and harmony of our beloved country. One has to learn to accept defeat ( in the election) gracefully and to congratulate the opponents in a fight well-fought. Be man enough to stand up to losing a fair and open election. Don’t be so short-sighted. If you so desire toget back into the goverment, prepare yourself well, and maybe you may be back in the driver’s seat in the nex GE.

    The royalty, with due respect, should not be a taboo subject whereby the rakyat are not allowed to dwell on. To be sure, nothing exist in a vacuum, so is the royalty..simply because if there are no rakyat, there would not be any royalty at all. As one can see, there are quite a lot of write-ups by the learned on the role of the royalty. Surely, there must be a certain scope and limitation within which where they could exert their influence in society, simply because there cannot be an absolute monarchy, there is none on planet earth.

  15. #15 by waterfrontcoolie on Thursday, 20 March 2008 - 2:21 pm

    As usual, when our Us are getting 4th rate grading, those BAs in the civil service are basically GREEN-EYED MONSTERS, they will find ways and means to derail all policies which they deem not to their ‘advantage’. They are not concern with the needs of the average Malaysians so long that their families get the required medical attention in their 1st class ward!.
    Wait till the day when they really need some good specialists who are available only overseas, only then would they cursed their naive behaviours!
    We have been going down the road to ZIMBABWE and will continue to accelerate our speed to this end.
    The curent Civil Service does not demand nor look for specialists to study problems related to their ministries. They are all generalists, if you can find the correct connection, then all your proposals will take precedent over every thing on the table!
    This monster has been created over the last 30 years, it would just disappear overnight, until a NEW GOMEN can rein them in. Difficult? No, it is that simple hold EVERY GOMEN OFFICER ACCOUNTABLE for his Commission and Omission of his decision!
    Now, whatever happen , the Officer who is paid to do the job does not seem to be responsible even though that decision should have been made by him!! So, whosoever take over the GOMEN, unless this sense of responsibilty can be held against the ever EXPANDING CIVIL SERVICE, there would be no CURE!!

  16. #16 by waterfrontcoolie on Thursday, 20 March 2008 - 2:24 pm

    the word ‘not’ is missed out in para 5 above.

  17. #17 by lbl on Thursday, 20 March 2008 - 2:28 pm

    If the UK degrees are not recognised by the Government, then why is the Government sending students to study in UK.
    The Government should be sending students to study in the countries where the expatriates they hire , come from.

  18. #18 by BlueBear on Thursday, 20 March 2008 - 2:53 pm

    lbl: “If the UK degrees are not recognised by the Government, then why is the Government sending students to study in UK.”

    For some strange reason, I don’t think the writer of the letter was sent by the government.

  19. #19 by ChinNA on Thursday, 20 March 2008 - 3:21 pm

    Everybody,
    Please try to look at it this way.

    No matter what everyone says, it is a fact that foreign professionals are not trained in the local environment. Thus in the case of an eye specialist, it could be reasoned that he/she may not be sufficiently ‘localised’ to treat patients in Malaysia.

    So could this be the reasoning that ministry is adopting?

    Another case in point, the standard of local universities. They are low in international ranking. But does that mean the local universities are worse.

    By a mile, NO! It is that all the other non-Malaysian universities are not qualified based on local criteria. For instance, how many of these international universities can publish their research in Malay. None or close to none.

    So it is very clear here that it is reasoned out that foreign trained professionals will not be able to adapt themselves in Malaysia unless they are trained or developed in Malaysia. This is called localisation.

    Why is it that some of the readers here cannot accept this very simple logical reasoning? Looks like the bureaucrats is smarter than some of the contributors here.

    As long as you disagree with the bureaucrats, you are wrong.

    Get it?

    It is that simple or is it?

    Food for thought.

  20. #20 by williamtan11 on Thursday, 20 March 2008 - 3:24 pm

    Working in Singapre is not as rossy as you think. If you are not a singapore citizen, you can only apply for the registrar (senior Medical Officer) job in a year contract basis. You will be forever MO, you will be under someone, you cannot do any private practice in Singapore because you are not the consultant.

    Singapore only pays you less than RM10,000 a month and you will be working like a dog from dawn to dusk. I think working in Singapore is not as good as working as a general practitioner in Malaysia.

    General practitioner earns more than RM10,000 a month and it is work of 9 to 5.

    Please remember living expenses is very high as well in Singapore.

    Regards,
    Dr. William Tan

  21. #21 by shin.geoffrey on Thursday, 20 March 2008 - 3:34 pm

    I am a retired eye specialist with FRCS qualification. A lot of old and experienced eye specialists are holding this degree. They may have operated on your mother, your grandmother or yourself.

    Please be aware that most of the local eye specialists were previously trainned by these FRCS people. I think derecognising this degree is “derecognising” their teacher and themselves.

    It is not easy to pass FRCS exam. My son has done it 8 years ago. There were about 100 candidates, only about 30 candidates passed their exam. Out of these 30 candidates, only 2 to 3 were Malaysian (1 chinese and 1 indian). My son has even met someone from Malaysian going to sit for his 6th attempt!!!

    Passing rate in my time was even much lower. I think the current passing rate of FRCS is about 30%, which is very much lower than the passing rate of local master degree (perhaps 90 to 100%?).

    Who is more qualified?

    Regards,
    Dr. Geoffrey Shin
    Canada

  22. #22 by P.O.T.S on Thursday, 20 March 2008 - 3:57 pm

    Sigh…some ignorant comments here in this blog again.

    People who are not well-versed in the healthcare system of Malaysia and not familliar with the Ministry of Health policies should really refrain from making senseless comments.

    The MOH wants more bumi specialists and less nons around.

    Period.

    http://unwantedcitizen.blogspot.com/2008/03/slapped-pushed-and-kicked-around.html

  23. #23 by shaolin on Thursday, 20 March 2008 - 3:57 pm

    Dr. LMK,
    May God bless You and others in UK.

    Surely uncle Lim will try to help to improvise the doctor
    shortages situation in M’sia. Just give him a bit of time.

    We do not want racist systems in Malaysia politics! We
    want a clean, fair and just society and country…!!

    We are changing gradually to so-called Malaysians’ Malaysia.
    We want to see things happen in that manner however
    small our population is..!!

    Remember, Peoples’ Power can change lots of things we
    desire to have… Just keep your fingers cross and pray
    to God that Malaysia can CHANGE for the BETTER in
    TOMORROW…!

  24. #24 by shaolin on Thursday, 20 March 2008 - 4:05 pm

    Muhammed Taib was the ex Menteri Besar of Selangor,
    carrying Millions of Dollars in cash and was caught in
    Australia custom…!!

    Why is he be selected to be in the Cabinet again??
    Anyone has the answer?

    Does AAB has shortage of Good and Trustworthy
    Ministers than Muhammed Taib, I do not know??

    May be someone can provide us with answers. TQ.

  25. #25 by philin on Thursday, 20 March 2008 - 4:52 pm

    Singapore is a better place to work with higher pay, about 2.3 times exchange rate. And it is closer to home but you have to get used to staying in small hdb flats that are more affordable.

    How do i know? I have studied and worked in Singapore for many years before calling it quits and came back to Penang. There are pros and cons of working in Singapore though. Being a small city state, there’s more pressure and the high cost of living there.

    There are many smart Malaysian Chinese working in Singapore after being offer ASEAN scholarship to study A levels and then NTU or NUS after that. Many of them eventually settle down in Singapore but there are quite a handful who came back to Malaysia.

  26. #26 by omo on Thursday, 20 March 2008 - 4:59 pm

    Just plain discrimination. How come 3 years UK Enginneering Degree from third class Polytechnics are recognised by BEM whereas in Malaysia, they recommended to be 4 years course. Even at one time, Najib tried to crash course in for UPM – taking 3.5 years. Also, they give concession to UTM where the students can bypass STPM and from SPM to 5 years deg course.
    No wonder our education is like waving a keris – pass or go to jail

  27. #27 by HJ Angus on Thursday, 20 March 2008 - 5:09 pm

    Yes working in Singapore definitely is not all roses as you MUST perform – no slackers are welcomed.

    My daughter worked as an accountant for 2 years before she went to the UK and now she is trying hard not to return to Singapore but hoping to go to Australia.

  28. #28 by Racheljansz on Thursday, 20 March 2008 - 5:22 pm

    For goodness sakes, if you are currently practising in UK, why do you want to come back!!!
    Make millions of sterling pounds and come back in Malaysia as Second Home program la!

    With your qualification and experience the world is your oyster but why do you have to choose Malaysia!
    Checkout which countries that is good for raising a family, that has less discrimination, stress and biasness.
    So far Aussie land seems to be the top choice.

  29. #29 by dawsheng on Thursday, 20 March 2008 - 5:33 pm

    Living in Singapore can be quite suckie…! It can be fun but you gotta have lotsa money! Twenty minutes taxi ride can cost you RM40 or more…

    Work in Singapore now is very stressful, first half of this year is going to be tough, I am not too optimistic about the second half as well but I may be wrong. Cost of living has also shot up tremendously, salary still the same.

    Malaysia can be a better place if only….

  30. #30 by hussainjahmad on Thursday, 20 March 2008 - 5:56 pm

    How can this happen again? another brain drain problem!!

    1. How could this bureocrats from KKM pass their decision without the approval of parliament?
    2. Why the parliament is not aware of this?
    3. Can the previous “honest” health minister explain this?
    4. What give this bureocrats to manipulate our lifes?
    5. I hope Uncle Lim could demand this bureocrats to expose their correspondence with Glasgow Royal College to the parliament and the public. The public needs a good explanation from them!

    I demand this group of people to step down, be responsible and stop playing “GOD” !!

    Regards,
    Hussain

  31. #31 by controlnation1 on Thursday, 20 March 2008 - 6:07 pm

    Guest this will come out in parliment..

  32. #32 by Loh on Thursday, 20 March 2008 - 7:12 pm

    That is called ethnic cleansing, with minor collateral damages. In fact UMNOputras do not want competition from their foreign trained brethrens.

  33. #33 by jetaime.f on Thursday, 20 March 2008 - 7:13 pm

    Malaysia will not go far with discrimination issues (Discrimination can be in many forms: racial, disability, age, sex, etc) still at large.
    I guess in Malaysia’s context – racial….
    As repeated before – The use of Protectionism to destroy species who have live in a symbotic nature in the same habitat is Cruel and unacceptable for all religions and by human rights.

    I am not well-informed and unable to say with certainty that the objective of the government for not recognizing the degree is due to racial discrimination but definitely it is a form of protectionism created to protect certain group.

    At this juncture, ,racial issues is notably a rampant issue within Malaysia.

    European companies have been successful in conquering and expanding market share in Asia (in general), since the 15th century because the Europeans realized that they will need to employ talented and the best in a market where they are unfamiliar with to achieve their objectives. To do this, racial discrimination has to be disregarded if not eliminated from their vocabulary.

    What happens back in their home countries? Take the United States…it is definitely a multi-cultured and multi-racial country, even more so than Malaysia. But the one thing the country recognize is, I want the best…..regardless of race. Hence you see non-caucasian stars like Muhammad Ali is born, CEO of world’s famous investment bank Merril Lynch Stanley O’Neal is of african american heritage….”he’s black”….

    Herein, it does not mean discrimination is NIL or 100% elimination in these countries. NO! Discrimination exist everywhere in the world and will continue. It is one of the greatest flaws of the human species.

    But

    At a minimum, a progressive country must cultivate a non-discrimination attitude and mindset and be able to control the spread of this disease. If Australia (famous for its WHite Australian Policy) is able to see through the barriers of discrimination and has now able to better accept non-whites into their society and workplace with equal opportunities offered to all, why can’t Malaysia……accept the beautiful multi-racial people who have been living together once upon a very long time?!

    Unless the people is able to conquer the fear, and accepts and embrace the concept of non-discrimination….the issues that the eye specialists are facing and many other issues that appear in the news today and has been for many years will continue.

    Perhaps,
    First: To conquer this fear – A very strong force will be needed to quell and control this fear.

    Perhaps, a tangible solution can be: At a minimum, the economic structure should be able to cater for all (at a minimum for the weak and less competitive) to survive Independently and live comfortably and be able to enjoy the general necessities or most basic of life that must be made available to all. Or “a minimum economic structure for self-sufficiency”

    Second: To control this fear – the country’s judiciary system must be revamp.

    Third: To embrace, and continue to cultivate the non-discrimination concept – Creation and Implementation of discrimination laws within workplace, within the market, within the nation and for future generations, to instil the concept from young at home and in school.

    Perhaps, by addressing the Discrimination/ racial issue First, can the coalition (DAP+PKR+PAS) have a smoother road and be able to work within the limited resources available to them in implementing and realizing their objectives and plans.

  34. #34 by jetaime.f on Thursday, 20 March 2008 - 7:53 pm

    ” Palestinians and Isreali once upon a time treat each other as brothers…..until the appearance of the Strong Force to create the rift and the war which lasted till now…..it is not the common folks, it is the Strong Force” – quote by my Palestinian (roman catholic) best pal….

    Similar strong force happening in Malaysia?????? Yup.
    Can a Palestinian baby be born and be a roman catholic?????? Yup…..via a Palestinaian Muslim Male and Roman Catholic Isreali Mom…..because there are still common folks who treat each other, regardless of race and religion, as brothers and sisters…..
    Such common folks exist in Malaysia???????? Yup
    Just need to share, spread and strenghten the mindset to overcome the strong force and conquer racial related issues.

  35. #35 by williamtan11 on Thursday, 20 March 2008 - 8:29 pm

    hmm …

    So many blogs on this topic …

    Hussain has made a few good points … Uncle Lim, please consider his questions for the parliament Q&A session …

    Uncle Lim, I would like to add a few more questions for that group of bureocrats:

    1. Who elected this group of bureocrats?
    2. What is the mechanism of election?
    3. How long is their term?
    4. Is it an open election or just another “close” tender?
    5. Is it just another circle of friend playing “god” to control people’s life?
    6. Is there any representative from all the universities?
    7. Is the portion and distribution ratio among KKM, private sector and universities as standard as MMC?
    8. What have made them so special to be superior?

    Their power is given by the people, hope they hope it can be taken away by the people.

  36. #36 by Sorry no name on Thursday, 20 March 2008 - 8:45 pm

    In ophthalmology (eye specialty), there are quite a few subspecialties (super specialty). For instance, paediatric ophthalmology (kids), oculoplastic (eyelids and beauty surgery), vitreoretinal surgery (retinal cases) and etc.

    This group of bureocrates have implemented to all the junior eye specialists that they must complete at least 3 years of further training on one of the area (one year overseas training) before they can do subspecialty surgery.

    For example, after you have qualified your master degree, you are a general eye surgeon. If you want to do subspecialties in paediatrics (kids), you must spend another 3 years of further training before you can declare yourself as a paediatric ophthalmologist. After you have declared yourself as a paediatric opthalmologist, you can mainly do paediatric (kids) cases.

    However, this group of bureocrates did not have such trainning themselves. One of them practising in Tun Hussain Onn is doing vitreoretinal surgery, lid surgery and many other surgeries.

    My questions are:

    1. What give this group of bureocrates to do all sort of surgery without any further trainning?
    2. What justified them to do so? just because they are “experience” and on the top of the world?
    3. Have they gone through any further 3 years trainning separately on vitreoretinal, oculoplastic surgeries and so on .. (that will be bloody many years !!!!) ..?

    Formation of this higher group is a mistake. A group of bureocrates trying to dictate the junior eye specialist’s life. They want all the eye specialists to obey them.

    I hereby urged all the junior eye specialist please wake up and topple them !!!

    YB Lim Kit Siang, please also bring my questions to the parliament as well !!!!!! Please do so !!!! YB Lim !!

  37. #37 by Dr Hanna on Thursday, 20 March 2008 - 9:15 pm

    Sad to hear all these, I am also a victim under the Malaysia trainning system.

    They have imposed so many rules and regulations for us to “obey” otherwise we may fail our master degree.

    We have enough of Pall Singh of Tun Hussain Onn and Mariam Ismail of Selayang hospital, stop playing “GOD”, please, you are just normal human being. What make you so khas?

    I wish all the eye specialists will stand up and boycott them. We have enough enough of you. Please leave.

  38. #38 by highhand on Thursday, 20 March 2008 - 10:45 pm

    i would suggest you to sent a letter to the new health minister.

    but you will probably get the reply after 2013

    provided that if your letter still intact not shredded……….

  39. #39 by miwaki on Thursday, 20 March 2008 - 11:20 pm

    Please make sure your letter is written in bahasa malaysia,our health ministry may not be able to understand the content if it is written in foreign language.

    By the way,why coming back to Malaysia when you can go to Singapore ? Cannot speak Mandarin-ah ?

  40. #40 by Old Geezer on Friday, 21 March 2008 - 12:12 am

    “Cannot speak Mandarin-ah ?” miwaki

    I have that problem too. That is why I don’t like to stay there.
    But they pay very well and I think they overpaid their university staff compare to average Singaporean pay.
    But they have so much money for research that you can do a lot of world-class work there.
    Living in Singapore is quite tough especially if you are used to open spaces.
    For me, I get a chilly feeling when I look down from over 10 stories high.
    With the type of money to buy a reasonable size apartment there, I can buy a luxury house with a big yard over here.
    You earn big but you also have to pay ridiculous amount for housing, cars, etc.
    I guess Singaporeans have no choice but I pity ordinary Singaporeans.
    Also, they have so many mainland Chinese with their bad habits of not queuing and spitting everywhere. Residents there would not be surprised if they find a puddle of urine in the elevator. In my opinion, because of the influx of mainland Chinese and other foreigners, they are gradually losing the Singapore identity that I used to know.

  41. #41 by Old Geezer on Friday, 21 March 2008 - 12:22 am

    “Many of us (Malays, Chinese and Indians) are holding this degree in UK dying to come home”

    Why are you all dying to go home? Racial problem?
    Ang-mor prefers to see ang-mor doctor, right?

    If you want to go to Singapore and you don’t have Oxbridge or top tier Harvard-type of degrees, you will be disappointed after a few years because they are very brand-conscious.

  42. #42 by dimplerid22 on Friday, 21 March 2008 - 12:27 am

    Dr LMK,
    Can you please contact me ar dimplerid22 at gmail dot com?
    I am an FRCSG holder as well.

  43. #43 by yune19 on Friday, 21 March 2008 - 1:09 am

    I am also the victim of this country master specialist programme after the derecognition of FRCS/MRCS diploma. This system is in fact substandard without proper structure and assessment based training. You are required to work as service MO for 4 years without proper guidance and training esp in university side. In the end of 4 year you will be assessed either competent or incompetent candidate with a passing rate almost 90% unless u r really stupid. Why? Ur contry need a lot specialist lo…

  44. #44 by antz on Friday, 21 March 2008 - 1:25 am

    And ordinary s’poreans beginning to show they are less tolerant of foreigners.
    Now,they view foreigners as a somebody who is bringing down their national identity.

  45. #45 by ablastine on Friday, 21 March 2008 - 3:31 am

    Hmm, leaving is Singapore expensive,stressful, claustraphobic and dirty to stay in? But in some recent survey Singapore is suppose to be the world’s best city to stay in according to opinions of Asians who took the survey and the best city in Asia to stay according to world citizen, beating even Melbourne and Sydney. Perhaps some of you should drop by someday for a visit. If you have plenty of money you can live like a King staying in big bungalow with 10 servants and a fleet of cars. If you do not have just stay in HDB and eat in hawker centres lah. In any case the HDB there actually feels like more classy than private condominium in Malaysia. You can walk the streets without having that great fear of being raped, kidnapped or simply robbed. Oh give the Chinese immigrants to Singapore a break. Many of them are very well educated and behave much better than a lot of Malaysians. It is not good to sterotype and blame every puddle of urine and sputum on them.

  46. #46 by aerolancer on Friday, 21 March 2008 - 8:22 am

    I am glad someone has managed to bring this issue out for discussion. I am a surgeon trained in UK and due to the convoluted barrier set up in Malaysia, I may not be able to render my service any time sooner. As discussed among these blogs, the issue of coming back to Malaysia is not a matter of potential gains, (in some surgical specialities, the fees received in Malaysia may be lucrative!) but a sense of belonging and harmony between the Eastern and the Western cultural value. There is no place on earth, except Malaysia, that you can dress casually for a nice supper at a “pondok”, sitting among your Indian, Malay and Chinese friends, at the middle of night without costing an arm and a leg, and without fear of being stabbed to death by the underage thuds, or blasted to pieces by some terrorist act. There is no better place to bring up your children, reared among the Asian family, to respect the elders, the traditions and the laws. Additionally, there is no better place for the wealthy to have “rich man-friendly taxation law” (ie. low personal income tax, no capital gain tax, no inheritance tax, low corporate tax, offshore facility with dysfunctional Inland Revenue etc). On the other side of the coin, one may noted that an average Joe and Jane may find Malaysia is a harsh environment to make a living!

    The blog here is not about how the wealthy may love Malaysia, and it is not even to emphasize the anti-Chinese anti-Indian racism, as racism exists in every form and shades everywhere. The real matter here is the deliberate brain drain by the ill conceived governmental plan while at the same time innocently ask “why don’t you guys come back to help developing Malaysia huh?” The plan is practically “neon-labelled” of self-deceiving and self-glorifying practise while at the same time, impeding any progress.
    Let me state the relevant issues here…
    1. The “exemption from governmental service” plans that encourage the talents to come back to Malaysia may look good on the net, but on the other hand, they are contradicted by “gazzettement” and the act of not recognising international degree. Perhaps this may be the act of defiance to the international communities as the Malaysian Master Degree is only recognised by Indonesia and Arab continents? The idea of localization is totally ludicrous as the pathological spectrum of surgical disease is almost the same for all races. The ethical discipline and the principle ideology of medical and surgical profession to treat all patients equally, meticulously and logically should transcend these petty encumbrances!
    2. The surgical wannabe in the world really depends on where they did their advanced training fellowship after FRCS. The “1-2 years overseas training” from the Malaysian scheme really do not work well. These highly specialized institutions that offer these fellowships do not recognise Malaysia Master degree. So, what does that mean? Well, these Malaysian trained doctors, after being grilled and treated harshly over the years in public hospitals, may not have the time or the right criteria to be admitted to appropriate advanced training. They may have to seek other means to fulfil these qualifications. Feeling dejected, they will take up residence in these foreign countries and may not want to go back to the “forsaken nation”. This, en mass, perpetuates the current brain drain condition.
    3. This is the feedback from my peers in clinical research. There are some top notch Malaysian scientists working in specialised institutions world wide, eager to return home but too afraid to make the commitment. Well, the fact is that some of non-Malay researchers have been promised heaven and earth to go back to Malaysia to work/develop the department. They will be given the position of the deputy/associate in the new department, but not the chairperson, mind you, as that exclusive right belongs to Malay. They may even have the opportunity to have a public photo session with some MBs and have given all-grinning all-affirmative handshakes over the promised research funding. Eventually, the funding does not materialize or is “significantly downsized” with the missing portion “untraceable”. If the maverick has managed to achieve a certain result even with limited resources, the glory goes to the chef! These scientists have forgone their promotions and their careers to go back to Malaysia for their desire, dreams and high principles, but in the end, these elite always find themselves in broken dreams, hard struggle, and disillusioned. This realization, of course, will not promote the “sincerity” of the governmental plan to stop brain drain.
    As you can see, these issues require radical shakeup along the line of nation planning, racial equality and corruption. I am pessimistic about the chance that this may happen within this generation.

  47. #47 by jetaime.f on Friday, 21 March 2008 - 8:40 am

    aerolancer : “…………….As discussed among these blogs, the issue of coming back to Malaysia is not a matter of potential gains, (in some surgical specialities, the fees received in Malaysia may be lucrative!) but a sense of belonging and harmony between the Eastern and the Western cultural value. There is no place on earth, except Malaysia, that you can dress casually for a nice supper at a “pondok”, sitting among your Indian, Malay and Chinese friends, at the middle of night without costing an arm and a leg, and without fear of being stabbed to death by the underage thuds, or blasted to pieces by some terrorist act. There is no better place to bring up your children, reared among the Asian family, to respect the elders, the traditions and the laws…….”
    ================================================

    aerolancer, I agree with you that Malaysia is one of the nicer places to be in …….. – the night life……

    Malaysia has its uniqueness as a country, “mixed”-culture and more so of the different people of different races, which the government don’t Fully appreciate….sadly….instead of concentrating in bringing out what the people and country have to offer….it has resulted in a “mess” for so many years……

    There are differences in the Indians in Malaysia compare to the Indians in India, same with the Chinese in Malaysia, because they are “Malaysianized” or Malaysians……

  48. #48 by jetaime.f on Friday, 21 March 2008 - 8:43 am

    Honestly, the Racial issue has to be resolved by the new coalition (DAP+PKR+PAS) in order to progress with the rest of their objectives……………”sorry to be a broken record”…….

  49. #49 by Old Geezer on Friday, 21 March 2008 - 12:13 pm

    “Perhaps some of you should drop by someday for a visit….Oh give the Chinese immigrants to Singapore a break. Many of them are very well educated and behave much better than a lot of Malaysians.” ablastine

    Singapore always claim to have 1st world society, so we can be more critical, whereas Malaysia never claim to have 1st world society.
    What I said was from personal experience and from listening to complaints by native Singaporeans. Native Singaporeans themselves know the societal problems they are facing but their govt continues to rampantly import foreigners just because their economic model said that they need a larger population to be sustainable. Not all their immigrants are the well-educated type; there are mostly odd-job labourers, etc., as well.
    I remember a Singaporean telling me that Lee KY believes that Singapore depends only on the top 5% of its population. You can see that philosophy at work by looking how they paid their ministers, university staff, and top civil servants so much money and grooming future leaders by spending so much money to send scholars to Oxbridge and top US universities. Their university faculty members are paid US rate. Their PM and ministers earn more than the U.S. President and his cabinet members.
    The Singaporean govt should seriously consider the need to preserve a Singaporean identity and reconsider whether they should just let in as many foreigners as possible just to make up their population.
    As I said before, I have sympathy for ordinary Singaporeans.
    Just ask yourself why they have brain-drain problem as well.

  50. #50 by Old Geezer on Friday, 21 March 2008 - 12:56 pm

    “There are some top notch Malaysian scientists working in specialised institutions world wide, eager to return home but too afraid to make the commitment. Well, the fact is that some of non-Malay researchers have been promised heaven and earth to go back to Malaysia to work/develop the department.” ..aerolancer

    I agree with the fact that there are top notch Malaysian scientists working overseas. I have mentioned here, in one of the previous topics, that the problem appears to be that these scientists are non-Malays.
    The govt kept asking scientists to come back but the deans and dept heads at the local universities suffer from this inferiority complex that their jobs would be at risk if these scientists return.
    Someone even told me that even getting a short-term senior visiting position is impossible. They don’t seem to understand that a full professor in the US is not going to come to UM with a title as postdoctoral fellow.
    There are scientists who would like to go back for short attachments and this would be beneficial to Malaysian universities because such attachments encourage collaborations, etc.
    I guess the little napoleans at these universities are even afraid for these top notch scientists to return even for short visits.
    Another issue that the Malaysian govt should consider is pay.
    Pay is not a problem in Singapore but a big problem for returning scientists in Malaysia.
    Malaysia has to consider that these overseas scientists have to pay bills in their countries of residence, e.g., they may still have families in the U.S. and they need to pay mortgages in US $. So, the govt should have the same basic pay scale as the local but on top of that, they should pay an expatriate allowance so that their final salary is equivalent to what they would get in their countries of residence.
    For a full professor in the US to give up his permanent job to return to work in Malaysia, he/she has to consider economic factors such as the pension that he/she stands to lose, the lower salary, and access to research funding.
    These factors are very unattractive at the moment unless the overseas scientist has no permanent job and no financial obligations or benefits overseas.

  51. #51 by cto on Friday, 21 March 2008 - 1:38 pm

    It is good that you have raised the issue and brought it to the forefront. However, taking on the establishment is likely a Sisyphean task.

    So if I were you, I would not hold my breath for anything positive to happen anytime soon. This sort of thing has been going on for years and will likely go on for a while. It is rather tragic but when your home country does not recognize or appreciate your ability/talent/qualification as much as than other more developed nations, I don’t think you have a choice but to stay away.

    If more people highlight such issues, perhaps some witch doctor (with all due respect to the real doctors here) might just be able to remove this curse one day. In the meantime don’t sweat it.

  52. #52 by budak on Friday, 21 March 2008 - 1:49 pm

    why bother by stupid M’sian medical org… they always look oversea qualification are hindrance of M’sian trained doc…

    please look broader picture, just let them self qualify… soon the world would reject all M’sia medical qualification… that would be another lesson that they should learn….

    just drop-in Singapore or Australia, here you’re fully qualify… who knows one day you’ve chance to “potong” Pee-M mata leh…! :-)

  53. #53 by catharsis on Friday, 21 March 2008 - 4:08 pm

    MRCS is not a recognised degree in Malaysia.
    However, Glasgow board is STILL offering this exam for this degree
    until NOW………………………………………………………………

    See what would happen when some moron in the Ministry with a bought degree making decisions on accreditation- ONE WORD- FIASCO

  54. #54 by shin.geoffrey on Friday, 21 March 2008 - 5:34 pm

    I think most of the people in this blog dreaming that working abroad is far better than in Malaysia.

    Why we want to come back? Two reasons:

    1. Australian will not issue their medical license AND working permit if you are not an Australian citizen.

    2. Singapore will ONLY issue you a senior MO job, you will be holding about RM10,000 per month and you work from morning to midnight. Working as a GP in Malaysia from 9 to 5 can do better than that. You can only get into the consultant post if you are a singaporean citizen.

    3. We are not the migrant of Malaysia, we are the citizen of Malaysia. Malaysia is part of our home, we must not surrender and fight.

    Working and migration abroad is not funny. Some of the people are not married and have no kids, they do not know what is the responsibility as a head of the family.

    After you are married with kids, you only ask for one thing – stablity for yourself and your beloveds.

    Stop discouraging our specialist to come home. The blog site ,apart from letting you expressing your disatisfaction, is to help Uncle Lim to come out with a solution to fight against the darkness.

  55. #55 by Dr Hanna on Friday, 21 March 2008 - 5:37 pm

    I agree with Geoffrey, stop discouraging our people to come home. We need Uncle Lim to address this problem to the cabinet to settle this problem. Spreading hatrage cannot resolve the situation. Please, come together and work.

  56. #56 by Sorry no name on Friday, 21 March 2008 - 5:47 pm

    Why everyone dream of Singapore?

    I have worked there as a senior MO for a few years. Absolutely madness! You work more than 18 hours a day and you only get RM10,000 per month.

    If you are a foreigner, you will only work as a senior MO. Remember, things in Singapore is very very expensive! For a doctor to be ready for oncall, we cannot stay in JB, we must stay in Singapore.

    I hardly had any saving at that time. Singaporeans are looking down at us like a dirt !!

    Please, I would be grateful if most of the people keep their eyes wide.

    What Geoffrey said is correct, we are not the migrant of Malaysia, we are the citizen of Malaysia. Our grandparents fought for this country independent.

    We need to be slightly constructive now to get measure to YB Lim Kit Siang to handle this crisis. Inflammatory and discouraging advice should not be the priority.

    Dr. No Name

  57. #57 by williamtan11 on Friday, 21 March 2008 - 6:00 pm

    Australia is full of job for foreign doctor?

    Well … few years ago while I was still working as a doctor in UK, so many Aussies came to UK to search for medical job ..

    Apparently the trainning post for specialist is not sufficient to accommodate the vast number of their own Aussie graduates …

    I cannot comment on other fields, but, for medical, Australia has shut its door to the foreigner to save their own people …

    Singapore … well … a lot of comments already from others ..

  58. #58 by along_along on Friday, 21 March 2008 - 6:14 pm

    Thank you to Dr LKM for starting this post, many of us in the UK are really dying to make this issue clear, to come home and serve our family, friends, community and country…

    Most of the posts are very sensible, even from non-medics…but i personally do not understand WHY SINGAPORE and AUS ARE INVOLVED HERE?????

    In case some of you do not realise, this is YB LIM KIT SIANG’s blog, a MALAYSIAN who was jailed for MALAYSA democracy, a MALAYSIAN who speak loudly for democracy in the parliament, a MALAYSIAN spend all his life want to make his country strong, safe, healthy in ALL aspects.

    I am very sure Dr LKM and many of us in other parts of the world who equipped ourself with a pair of healing hands are not thinking to go SING-JIA-POH, for money? for safety? for democracy? (hahahahah…they don’t have), for better life? Why don’t you go and ask how much you need to pay to get your cataract remove in singapore, before you post something? FOOLS…..

    What we want is to STAND TOGETHER with our people, just as the same as YB LIM…

    So stop talking about other countries in this blog and save your shallow thoughts for yourself and singaporeans!

    We sincerely hope this issue can be dealt with as soon as possible with the help of Kit Siang, reading some tragedic news about our healthcare system really break our hearts….

    The people are innocent, is the lawmaker that makes them suffer….We are ready to go home and make a change….

    along-along from Edinburgh

  59. #59 by sheriff singh on Friday, 21 March 2008 - 6:27 pm

    Say, have you tried to be an EAR specialist? We have people with big ears here but are very hard on hearing. There is a niche market here.

    Alternatively, the 5 Opposition states can recognise the UK specialist degree and you can come home and practice in half the country.

    Also ask Liow Tiong Lai, the new Health Minister, whats he gonna do about it?

    Also ask the LAN fellows about their thoughts on this. Maybe they have some inputs and outputs if not kaputs.

  60. #60 by danielchowck on Friday, 21 March 2008 - 6:49 pm

    Dr. LMK, have you leave your full name, address and contact number to the DAP? Let them bring it to Liow Tiong Lai and see whether MCA can do anything to prove that they are not mere UMNO’s puppet.

  61. #61 by jetaime.f on Friday, 21 March 2008 - 7:43 pm

    Australia is in need of doctors.

  62. #62 by dimplerid22 on Friday, 21 March 2008 - 7:54 pm

    As most of you know, the Academy of Medicine recently started compiling a list of medical specialists from various disciplines of medicine via the National Specialist Register (NSR).
    This register has been in the pipeworks for many years so that a formal list of specialists may be available,not unlike the register of medical practitioners available from the MMC.

    Unlike most,if not all the other specialities in medicine, the board members involved in ophthalmology have decided that it would be necessary for those who passed after 2003 (need to verify this info as weblink is down today) need to sit for an “exit” exam involving vivas, supervisor’s reports and a detailed examination of their procedural logbook.The first exam,I believe, is slated for mid 2008.

    The reason given was that this would ensure that the standard of ophthalmology practice in Malaysia is high.The info on the website seems to somehow downplay the standards of KKM in gazzetting specialists.Those involved in this exercise are deemed to be of adequate quality worthy of the NSR only after passing the “exit” exam!

    Gazzetted specialists in the other field of medicine only have to fill in a registration form and submit it together with the necessary payment and their name will appear on the specialist register. Gazzettement by the KKM is considered a stamp of approval and the “clinical” specialist is now a full -fledged specialist worthy of admission to the NSR.

    In ophthalmology, the exit exam is being enforced RETROSPECTIVELY and the interesting thing is that there is a so called “grandfather” clause that exempts ophthalmologist who passed before the year 2003.
    This casts a serious flaw in the motives and sincerity of the academy in enforcing it’s so called high standards.

    The legal aspects of enforcing retrospective rulings need to be clarified and possibly challenged as this ruling will affect the status of younger gazzetted ophthalmologist in the KKM, universities and those whom are already in private practice.
    I have heard that there have been many complaint letters submitted to the academy but I believe that we as gazetted ophthalmologists need to make a collective stand on the matter.

    I propose that those involved in this retrospective ruling boycot the exams to send a strong message to the academy.The implementation of this ruling is unfair to say the least.

    The insinuation is that these gazzetted ophthalmologists are good enough for the KKM and universities to treat patients and teach masters students but need to prove themselves to a select panel who would exempt their contemporaries (and themselves of course)…..all in the name of ensuring quality in the field of ophthalmology.

    It is a matter of principle that we do not allow such unfair rulings to go unchallenged. If there is one thing we’ve learnt from the recent elections is that Malaysians are starting to fight against unjust practices.It is possible to challenge this unfair ruling if we are united.

    Questions that need to be answered include:-

    1)Why come up with a retrospective ruling to penalise younger gazzetted ophthalmologists?
    If they are so sincere about protecting patients from errant ophthalmologists shouldn’t all ophthalmologists be subjected to the exams?Do all doctors keep up with their field of specialty? Are they safer doctors because they are contemporaries of the examiners?

    2)If specialists gazzetted by KKM in other specialities are good enough for the academy to be registered in the NSR, can’t the academy and the KKM act together in certifying a specialist? If an exit exam is to be introduced, this should be done PROSPECTIVELY!

    3)What are the impications if the gazzetted ophthalmologist should fail one of these vivas? Is he/she put on probation and not allowed to practice?

    These are indeed worrying developments.

  63. #63 by jetaime.f on Friday, 21 March 2008 - 7:55 pm

    I don’t have a lot of knowledge about the medical industry but merely sharing the news that my best pal’s friends have migrated and managed to get jobs in Australian hospitals. They are doctors from India. My other best friend is a nurse another hospital in Australia, she tells me there’s critical shortage of doctors. I was also told by my own cousin who is specializing over there. Perhaps, the area one specialises in matters too.

  64. #64 by sanjayr on Friday, 21 March 2008 - 9:20 pm

    Just go on to singapore n practise there….. the government must learn a lesson… Just see all the specialist locally, the chinese and indian FRCS n FRCP r becomming lesser by the day…. one of this days we will all be patients treated by only 1 race….

  65. #65 by lbl on Saturday, 22 March 2008 - 12:30 am

    BlueBear, I know he is a private student. I meant government scholars who are still being sent to the UK. Say, if we are getting expatriates from Myanmar, then the government should send our students to study in Myanmar.

  66. #66 by catharsis on Saturday, 22 March 2008 - 7:20 am

    shin.geoffrey Says:

    Yesterday at 17: 34.06
    I think most of the people in this blog dreaming that working abroad is far better than in Malaysia.

    ……………………1. Australian will not issue their medical license AND working permit if you are not an Australian citizen…………..

    My friend your facts are wrong. I wonder which source you use for your research…………………………………………………….

    ONLY GOVERNMENT POSITIONS (POLICE, ARMY, NAVY, DIMA, FOREIGN MISSION ETC.) REQUIRE YOU TO BE A CITIZEN

  67. #67 by catharsis on Saturday, 22 March 2008 - 8:50 am

    williamtan11 Says:

    Yesterday at 18: 00.50
    Australia is full of job for foreign doctor?
    ………………I cannot comment on other fields, but, for medical, Australia has shut its door to the foreigner to save their own people ………………………………………………………………………

    again your facts ARE OBSOLETE in view of present day environment…doctors are very much needed in Australia but foreign trained doctors to need to go for reassesment to validate their overseas certification before they can practise in OZ

  68. #68 by williamtan11 on Saturday, 22 March 2008 - 9:29 am

    Dear Catharsis,

    I suggest you to check with the Australian medical council for further informations. Before you are allowed to be assessed, you need to clear the Aussie medical council first.

    What is the criteria for a non-Australian doctor to sit for the registration exam?

    After you passed all your medical exam (my friend tooks 5 years after he got his PR as a investor, not a doctor), then you need to seek a specialist registrar job.

    My Aussie friends did not get the specialist registrar job, they are now working in UK.

    As jetaime.f said, there are lots of South Asian doctors practicing in Australia. In UK, similar situation.

    Why? These people got in during the 90’s when the migration policy was still loose. In 2000, under the pressure of European Union, UK became very hard on non-EU. Austrialia also started to de-recognised foreign doctors.

    For those people want to migrate to Australia, let me give you a back door.

    Austrialia may not welcome doctors but New Zealand does. A lot of my friends migrated to New Zealand, they got NZ PR. A a NZ PR, you could exercise your right to be Austrialian PR.

    When you obtain your Australian PR, your life will be easier.

    That is all for those people thinking overseas is more rossy.

  69. #69 by shin.geoffrey on Saturday, 22 March 2008 - 9:42 am

    Thank you for dimplerid22’s comment, I would like to suggest further opinion.

    1. “Exit exam” … oh … please. Every country has its own system, there has not been any exit exam in Malaysia, we cannot simply follow other country’s system. If they want to follow, please follow 100%, please do not follow “half-cooked” way.

    2. In USA and europe (excluding UK), there is no such thing as exit exam. When their trainnee have completed their 4 years basic trainning, they will sit for the board exam. If you pass, you are a specialist.

    3. Malaysia offers a 4 years master program, similar to USA and europe. If you pass the master program, you are a specialist.

    4. About this exit exam: after you have passed your specialist degree, you need to pass another “exit” exam to be a specialist. So, may I ask, what is the purpose of passing a local master or a FRCS, MRCP and MRCOG degree then?

    5. This “exit” exam is tailored for those group of hypocrite and bureocrate to control the number of private and government specialist in Malaysia. Or … shall I say … for those “selected” one and those licking their ass one … probably chinese specialist will be marginalised …

    6. Please be aware that there are private doctors in the specialist board. If there are more and more private doctors in the market, can they find a better income?

    7. Our country is so short of doctors and specialists, implementing specialist registration is too premature. It will not yield a good quality of doctors but will 100% satisfy a group of “GOD” playing people.

    8. What give those specialist board member the privilege to be exempted from “exit” exam? by the way, who selected them? a circle of friends? They have no right to implement anythings.

    STOP PLAYING GOD.

  70. #70 by jetaime.f on Saturday, 22 March 2008 - 9:53 am

    williamtan11, hi there,

    I’m just curious of the whole process of getting a job in the medical field in Oz. The Indian friends I’ve mentioned, they got a job in Oz two years ago and then applied for their PR. I think perhaps they must have obtained work permit. And they graduated from medical schools in India. Perhaps it is the area within the medical specialize in that matters. Otherwise, sorry to say this but I’m curiouswhy doctors who have been practising in the UK are not able to get a job in Oz.

  71. #71 by jetaime.f on Saturday, 22 March 2008 - 10:02 am

    In fact, there are complaints that the Indian doctors from India are not as skilled or capable. Again this is hearsay from people who works in the medical field in OZ. Bear in mind that SEA doctors and other professionals in other field are exposed to a different market, environment, working procedures compare to Australians. As to in what sense or perspective they are not as skilled or capable as their counterparts who trained in Australia, that’s a question to ask.

  72. #72 by jetaime.f on Saturday, 22 March 2008 - 10:03 am

    correction: perhaps it is the areas within the medical field that matters. Sorry.

  73. #73 by jetaime.f on Saturday, 22 March 2008 - 10:11 am

    My view is, a country/ government should look after its own people without discrimination. At least, the basics of life should be taken care of. The plight of these eye specialists is part of the basics of life and I can’t say for everyone but I believe there are so many other professionals in other fields who left for a better life overseas, because they are denied the opportunities on “discrimination” grounds. I think it is no different to say Indonesian maids and Filipino maids working in Malaysia. It is only the profession or job held and one’s educational background.

  74. #74 by jetaime.f on Saturday, 22 March 2008 - 10:12 am

    and one’s educational background that differs…..sorry guys, fat fingers syndrome…. :)

  75. #75 by Dr Hanna on Saturday, 22 March 2008 - 10:29 am

    Hm hm hm … thank you for dimplerid22’s idea ..

    From dimplerid22’s letter, I reckon dimplerid22 must be a FRCS holder, I guess he/she must have qualified between year 1993 to year 2004. You may have been gazetted and yet waiting for your NSR .. am I right? haha ..

    My friend, our picture should be a bit broader lah. We need to save the past, the present and the future FRCS, not for a particular group lah … we also need to save those graduated after 2005, they are completed de-recognsed, they are not given a chance to be “gazetted”. We must save them as well, please, let us work together hand in hand lah .. for your info, I have not involved with your specialty, but I am involved in administrative affair lah ..

    About this “gazzettment”, how it comes about? I think a lot of non-medical people must know the following:

    1. Since Dr. LMK has mentioned about the Perintah-perintah Am dan Arahan Pentadbiran – Bab F, Pelbagai V, sesi 27 (a), (b)(i) and (b)(ii), what are them? (sorry for those do not understand BM!!)

    “Perintah-perintah Am dan Arahan Pentadbiran, Bab F, Pelbagai 5:
    27. (a) Perlantikan Sebagai Pegawai Pakar (46)
    Ketua Pengarah Kesihatan, dengan nasihat tiga orang pegawai pakar yang dipilih olehnya atau oleh sebuah jawatankuasa khas perubatan yang ditubuhkan oleh kerajaan untuk tujuan yang sama boleh melantik pegawai-pegawai perubatan sebagai pegawai pakar jika mereka memenuhi syarat-syarat di (b). Semua perlantikan yang sedemikian hendaklah disiarkan di dalan Warta Kerajaan.

    (b) Seseorang pegawai perubatan tidak akan dilantik sebagai pegawai pakar melainkan apabila jawatan yang dipegangnya itu memerlukan perjalanan tugas-tugas pakar dan

    (i) dia mempunyai kelayakan-kelayakan ilmiah atau ikhtisas yang diakui serta pengalaman-pengalaman yang memuaskan hati ketua pengarah kesihatan; atau:

    (ii) dia telah menjalankan tugas-tugas pakar yang memuaskan bagi satu jangkamasa yang panjang”

    2. Perintah-perintah Am (general order) above is only applied to government servant, private is NOT applied.

    3. How this gazettement comes about? To fulfil the general order as above, the specialist shall be supervised for a period of time. Upon satisfaction, his name will be submitted to the KKM as a specialist. This process is named as “gazzettement” by the KKM hospital people.

    4. “Gazzettement” is only applied for those working in the hospitals or clinic of the ministry of health (KKM). Universities have their own mechanism to fulfil the general order as above. So, many people claiming that universities have NO gazzettement, but, they did not mention universities have their own way.

    5. “Gazzettement” is created to fulfil the general order, but the private sector do not need to comply because they are not government servant.

    6. Therefore, the jawatan kuasa of the KKM must understand their stand. They can control their staffs in the hospitals of KKM, but they have NO right to control the universities and the private sector.

    7. Creating a specialist register is merely an extension arm for them to control the whole world to satisfy their ambitions, dictation and man-eat-man desires …. cool to be a “GOD” (as described by Geoffrey).

    8. According to the general order above, there is no specification on the specialist’s qualification. Anyone with any specialist degree can be nominated as a specialist under that general order. There is no specification on the duration of supervision as well in the order.

    9. That is why most of the expatriates (foreign doctors) with unrecognised postgraduate qualifications (from India, Africa …) in the hospital of KKM are gazzetted after a 6 month period of supervision.

    10. Unfortunately for Malaysian citizen, you must have a “qualified ” degree before you can get a job. If you are trainned overseas, you must do a 18 months period of gazzettement !! It is a bit too hard for our own people to fulfil the general order !!!

    11. I wish all the bloggers read this article and give Uncle Lim a better suggestion to make things works.

  76. #76 by Pink Leo on Saturday, 22 March 2008 - 1:52 pm

    As you can see, while many Malaysians can’t practise their skills and expertise yet they want to be home (or near to home), they all go to Singapore.

    Who get the talents just merely because of our stupid policy? Singapore.

    Who gain benefits from our talents?
    Singaporean.

    Did Singapore do anything to attract these talents?
    Apparently not. They are just very smart and lucky to have all the talented Malaysian contribute to the growth of Singapore just by ‘doing nothing’.

    Conclusion? Our policy helps Singapore instead of Malaysia.

    Blame who? Singapore? No, they did ‘nothing’.

    How ironic.

    Comment from a Malaysian (Chinese) who worked in Singapore and now in U.S.A.

    If you are asking why I am not in Malaysia? Just read this post again. :)

  77. #77 by catharsis on Saturday, 22 March 2008 - 4:48 pm

    williamtan11 Says:

    Today at 09: 29.00 (6 hours ago)
    Dear Catharsis,

    I suggest you to check with the Australian medical council for further informations……………………………

    I wonder which authority issues that visa- it is defintely not Australian Medical Council….that I am very sure of

    I would give you a benefit of doubt though………… does Dr Patet rings a bell………………………………………………………………
    or that Indian Doc whose visa was cancelled for his alleged involvement with the British terrorist attempt or QLD government clamouring for more doctors and the Australia Rural are clamouring for more doctors. Maybe I may have been mistaken about those Doctors of Asian cultural working in Melbourne hospitals who has attended to me who said they are here on PR visas…………but I am not sure what kind and level of assessment they had and by which body before they are granted the PR visas…………………

    anyway I will give you a benefit of doubt- one possibility is your information may not be current but I live here in Melbourne and I can see many Doctors of Asian background practising here

    Cheers

    DIMA show be able to throw us more light in relations to Doctors wanting to practise here in OZ

  78. #78 by dimplerid22 on Saturday, 22 March 2008 - 7:03 pm

    As Shin. Geoffrey said,
    ” About this exit exam: after you have passed your specialist degree, you need to pass another “exit” exam to be a specialist. So, may I ask, what is the purpose of passing a local master or a FRCS, MRCP and MRCOG degree then?”
    I would like to add that we are also subjected to a gazzettement period where at least in my case at the end of the period my logbook was thoroughly scrutinised and I was “grilled” by a particular private ophthalmologist member of the board (4 ophthalmologists in total) for ONE AND A HALF hours.
    I was then deemed up to mark and gazzetted in 2005.

    Dr Hanna,
    Thanks for the informative post.
    You are absolutely right that I am an FRCS holder.
    However, the ophthalmology specialty board(under the AMM) has also imposed the “exit”exam on those who hold the local Master’s qualification irrespective of whether the are currently in the KKM,universities or in private practice.

    What I propose is that all of us boycot the exit exam as the motives and implementation is suspect.
    Until we have a clear idea about what actually are the legal implications of not being on the NSR should we be fearful of repercussions.
    From my recent conversations with a number of affected ophthalmologists, not one of us have received a proper explanation on what the exams or the NSR is about.The NSR website is still DOWN!!!
    Many of those who are affected are getting bolder by the day and are willing to finally fight for their rights.

    Dr Hanna, if you are serious about “working hand in hand” and have more suggestions,please email me at dimplerid22 at gmail dot com.

  79. #79 by dimplerid22 on Saturday, 22 March 2008 - 7:35 pm

    The following is a copy of the letter sent by Professor G N Dutton FRCSGlasg,Convener of Ophthalmology Committee form the FRCSGlasg to Tan Sri Datuk Dr. Mohd. Taha Ariff, who was the DG then.This letter is dated 24th February 2004.

    Dear Datu Dr Ariff

    FRCSGlasg OPHTHALMOLOGY

    The College is extremely concerned about reports from our Fellows in Malaysia that the Malaysian Health Authorities have decided to de-register our Fellowship qualification in Ophthalmology. I understand this has now been implemented and has been backdated to 1999. I am not aware from first hand of why this decision was taken, but have been informed that it was based on information that our qualification was not of Fellowship standard. The College recognises that it is entirely proper for the Malaysian Health Authorities to decide on which qualifications to register. However, we wish to ensure that decisions about our qualifications are taken in the light of complete and accurate information about them. We have a duty to our Fellows throughout the world to ensure that the true value of their qualifications is appreciated by those who are responsible for assessing them.

    It is unfortunate that we were not asked for information before the decision was taken. However, I would ask you now to take the following into account and to reconsider your decision.

    In the 1990s the College adopted a policy of ensuring that all its examinations were ‘fit for purpose’. An intensive review of the FRCS Ophthalmology exam led to a number of major improvements being suggested, approved and implemented. Historically one part of the examination (General Medicine and Neurology in relation to Ophthalmology) consisted of two elements: an oral examination and a clinical examination. The review found that this clinical examination added little that was not already covered by other components of the exam. The College decided to integrate medicine and neurology within the exam as a whole, rather than have them standing alone. The College was satisfied that this strengthened the syllabus in a sound manner consistent with a Fellowship-level examination.

    The examination is under continual scrutiny and evaluation. The syllabus covers an appropriately wide range, and we require a high level of expertise and training experience from candidates. Such are the rigorous demands of this exam only approximately 25% achieve success. We involve examiners from other Colleges (including the Royal College of Ophthalmologists), the International Council of Ophthalmology and overseas examination boards. We take their advice on the structure, content and conduct of the exam. These are just some of the measures we take to ensure that the breadth and depth of exam are kept at Fellowship level. The aims of the exam and the standard required to pass are fully articulated in the published regulations. Finally, you should be aware that the exam is used by some countries, not to replace their internal assessments, but as a benchmark for them.

    I sincerely hope that this letter will provide the information you need for the Health Authorities to revise their decision to de-register the FRCSGlasg in Ophthalmology. Those Fellows, particularly in Malaysia, who have gained this qualification have not only worked extremely hard over many years but made considerable personal and financial sacrifices in the process and have every right to be proud of their achievements. This is not a diploma level exam and these doctors have truly earned their Fellowships.

    If I can provide additional information or be of further assistance please do not hesitate to contact me.

    Yours sincerely

    Professor G N Dutton FRCSGlasg
    Convener of Ophthalmology Committee

    It still annoys me when I see those who were responsible for this fiasco.
    Most of us know who the main instigator was…..

  80. #80 by dimplerid22 on Saturday, 22 March 2008 - 8:06 pm

    BTW, one of the reasons cited then by the powers-that-be on the Malaysian side was that the college no longer had stand-alone vivas and clinical examination for neurology.
    From the letter:-“The College decided to integrate medicine and neurology within the exam as a whole, rather than have them standing alone. ”
    “The College was satisfied that this strengthened the syllabus in a sound manner consistent with a Fellowship-level examination.”

    In short, a handful of Malaysian ophthalmologists (you know who you are) decided to punish some younger Malaysian ophthalmologists RETROSPECTIVELY over changes to the exam process which the FRCSG considered an improvement!
    Who are they to pass such judgement?

    It was only after a huge outcry that they changed their minds and decided to derecognise the FRCS “only” effective 2005.
    Some of the decision-makers on this committee which passed resolutions on the FRCS and now the “NSR exit exam” are in private practice. Is this wise?
    With the profit factor involved, one may wonder how much of this is a case of slamming the door shut after you’ve passed through it.

  81. #81 by Citizen voice on Saturday, 22 March 2008 - 9:10 pm

    That’s how I hurt when my colleagues from Singapore (in every regional meeting) critised that all chinese in Malaysia as “2nd grad chinese” and all intelligent 1st grad chinese had left the land. Why they judged us as “2nd grad”??? How embarrass & angry I was.

    But it is true that we work like hell in this land in order to survive, eventhough we get “1st grad” education from oversea.

  82. #82 by catharsis on Saturday, 22 March 2008 - 9:53 pm

    williamtan11:

    This web site should anwer all your queries pertaining to all professional migration inquiries in relations to OZ. Any would be applicants should be vary that your application is pitted against the world best and the assessment is based on merits

    http://www.immi.gov.au//allforms/pdf/1121i.pdf

    Cheers

  83. #83 by catharsis on Saturday, 22 March 2008 - 10:01 pm

    oops…….sorry…..it is ……

    http://www.immi.gov.au/allforms/pdf/1121i.pdf

  84. #84 by catharsis on Saturday, 22 March 2008 - 10:02 pm

    williamtan11:

    This web site should anwer all your queries pertaining to all professional migration inquiries in relations to OZ. Any would be applicants should be vary that your application is pitted against the world best and the assessment is based on merits

    http://www.immi.gov.au/allforms/pdf/1121i.pdf

  85. #85 by catharsis on Saturday, 22 March 2008 - 10:11 pm

    Citizen voice Says:

    Today at 21: 10.03 (52 minutes ago)
    That’s how I hurt when my colleagues from Singapore (in every regional meeting) critised that all chinese in Malaysia as “2nd grad chinese” and all intelligent 1st grad chinese had left the land. Why they judged us as “2nd grad”??? How embarrass & angry I was.

    But it is true that we work like hell in this land in order to survive, eventhough we get “1st grad” education from oversea.

    DON’T YOU DARE BELITTLE YOURSELF…………….NO MALAYSIAN IS SECOND CLASS WHEN IT COMES TO WORK APPROACH, ENDEVOUR, SPIRIT, ATTITUDES AND ETHICS

    WHEN I FIRST STARTED WORK IN OZ I FELT THE SAME AS YOU……..SO AWED WITH THE WAY THEY WORK IN A FIRST WORLD ENVIRONMENT- THE PROCESSES, THE APPROACHES, THE COMMITMENT TO EXCEL, THE PROFFESSIONALISM AND MOST IMPORTANTLY THE INTEGRITY, OPENNESS AND TRANSPARENCY, THE BALANCED APPROACH TO PROBLEM SOLVING OR DECISION MAKING-

    …..BENCH MARK YOURSELF AGAINST AN ESTABLISHED STANDARD SHOULD BE A MECHANISM FOR YOUR IMPROVEMENT

    GOOD LUCK MATE

  86. #86 by Fairman on Sunday, 23 March 2008 - 1:18 am

    If you come back, some ophthalmologist in Malaysia will starving to die. Because you are smart and make themself too competitive to survive. Thats why Malaysia government don’t want you.
    To save more human’s life, pls do not choose Malaysia to come back. Singapore needs smart ppl like you. Singapore needs to grow further! The 1st Class Country… Singapore!

  87. #87 by jetaime.f on Sunday, 23 March 2008 - 7:51 am

    catharsis Says:
    Yesterday at 22: 11.38

    DON’T YOU DARE BELITTLE YOURSELF…………….NO MALAYSIAN IS SECOND CLASS WHEN IT COMES TO WORK APPROACH, ENDEVOUR, SPIRIT, ATTITUDES AND ETHICS

    WHEN I FIRST STARTED WORK IN OZ I FELT THE SAME AS YOU……..SO AWED WITH THE WAY THEY WORK IN A FIRST WORLD ENVIRONMENT- THE PROCESSES, THE APPROACHES, THE COMMITMENT TO EXCEL, THE PROFFESSIONALISM AND MOST IMPORTANTLY THE INTEGRITY, OPENNESS AND TRANSPARENCY, THE BALANCED APPROACH TO PROBLEM SOLVING OR DECISION MAKING-

    …..BENCH MARK YOURSELF AGAINST AN ESTABLISHED STANDARD SHOULD BE A MECHANISM FOR YOUR IMPROVEMENT

    ===================================================

    Catharsis is right. To me, if you don’t hold your own self-respect no one will.

    If you need to survive in the competitive western world or even Singapore, you have to be true to yourself that you can do it, and you can do it better, and anyone out there is just as good as you. Just because they are Caucasians or Singaporeans, do not mean they are any better than anyone.
    Everyone has their own strengths regardless of nationality, race.

    (Just to digress, I personally hate to see Asians gloating over Caucasians!)

    Don’t forget there are many Malaysians who are high achievers in Malaysia and outside of Malaysia.
    I can give you a list of their names and positions if you want one. :)

    Have a great Easter everyone.

  88. #88 by Concern citizen on Sunday, 23 March 2008 - 11:19 am

    ChinNA:
    I don’t AGREE.

    Your comment didn’t hold water. I was the ex-graduate of Government Polytechnic, I knew well the painful process to write the assignment in Malay whilst all the technical text book was in English, but I din’t find any benefit. Now, even Ministry of Education is more emphasized in english, so your opinion to write the research in english didn’t carry more weight. How many academia will read your research paper in Malay.

    I also didn’t see why there should be additional procedure to localize those graduate from external unversity. For instand, I dold the Master Degree in Quality Management from UK, I don;t need to met the “additional requirements” to perform my task, it is international Degree and I could work in any part of the globe.

    GOT IT !!

  89. #89 by Concern citizen on Sunday, 23 March 2008 - 11:20 am

    ChinNA:
    I don’t AGREE.

    Your comment didn’t hold water. I was the ex-graduate of Government Polytechnic, I knew well the painful process to write the assignment in Malay whilst all the technical text book was in English, but I din’t find any benefit. Now, even Ministry of Education is more emphasized in english, so your opinion to write the research in Malay didn’t carry any weight. How many academia will read your research paper in Malay.

    I also didn’t see why there should be additional procedure to localize those graduate from external unversity. For instand, I dold the Master Degree in Quality Management from UK, I don;t need to met the “additional requirements” to perform my task, it is international Degree and I could work in any part of the globe.

    GOT IT !!

  90. #90 by Dr Hanna on Monday, 24 March 2008 - 9:10 am

    Waoo … so many blogs after a weekend ..

    Dimplerid22 has been very constructive and contributing a lot of ideas to us, good to have him or her around.

    About this exit exam … gazzettement is implemented just for the sake of fulfilment of General Order Chapter 5 .. gazzettement is only for the doctors working in KKM hospitals … now they rename it into “exit” exam …

    For those working in the universities, they have their own mechanism to fulfil Chapter 5 of GO … so gazzettement is not applied … so, legally and legitimately, the “exit” exam is not applied.

    For those working in the private, they are not bounded by the chapter 5 of GO .. so, again, legally and legitimately, the “exit” exam is also not applied.

    The academy of Medicine wants everyone to believe that the “exit” exam is applied to KKM, universities and private. Please do not fool by them. What can they do apart from behaving like foot ball hooligans?

    In order to force everyone to comply with the “exit” exam, they have to force MMC to implement NSR.

    In the new amended medical act 1971 (yet to be announced and gazzetted by the parliament), all the specialist must be registered under the MMC. However, the role of AM will be unclear after that.

    If the new act is implemented, will MMC submit all the application for AM to evaluate? or, will MMC committee evaluate themselves and to be independent of AM? This is the stage where Ismail Merican is going to discuss within this month or two.

    Dimplerid22, I know you are afraid of NSR despite you are gazzetted. If they allow you to register with NSR, will you still continue fighting for those unrecognized one?

    I know you are trying to gather all these FRCS people for support, but, in the cyberspace, most of the people are very sceptical of everyone’s identity. It is a bit difficult to them to trust you.

    These people are scare, they may suspect you like Matt Damon in the movie of “departed” or Andy Lau in the movie of “infernal affair” (chinese version). Keeping on asking them to email you may not be a good way because you yourself refuse to reveal your real identity. Also, they may be afraid you will leave them alone if you have achieved your personal target. Or, you are part of AM’s people???

    I do suggest you to setup a website to protest again this issue and let them getting closer to you slowly. It will take times to gain someone’s trust.

  91. #91 by shin.geoffrey on Monday, 24 March 2008 - 10:54 am

    Dimplerid22, your situation is in a bit of danger.

    You should not reveal to the public that you were from KKM and gazzetted in 2005.

    It is very easy for AM people to assess to Bahagian Amalan Perubatan of KKM … there were only a few peopel gazzatted during that time with FRCS (Glasgow) ..

    After they obtained your name, they could go to MMC website to retreive your present working address …

    Are you still sure of leading this group of unrecognised FRCS graduate? you may put your career in danger ..

    In fact, if you start leading, you cannot stop even you have achieved your personal target .. (why?) ..

    If you stop, your personal informatin will be fed to your follower and they will hurt you down .. it is quite easy to retrieve your personal information … remember .. Hanna is working there ..

    Let’s me suggest to you:

    It is better for you to continue feeding information in this blog for DAP to lead this group of people because:

    1. People blog here because they have confident with the opposition party (maybe?)
    2. People do not know you
    3. You will not be committed fully
    4. Once your personal target is achieved, you can silently retreat

    Please consider my suggestion.

  92. #92 by lakilompat on Wednesday, 26 March 2008 - 12:26 pm

    These bureaucrats are performing a mass genocide in Malaysia.

  93. #93 by Renaissance on Sunday, 30 March 2008 - 11:18 am

    I obtained my MRCP (UK) recently and subsequently got a tranfer letter to a district hospital.I made several appeals,all of which rejected or not entertained. I already did my district posting in the past without any appeal.And I think people who did postgra courses sponsored by KKM or Kem Pendidikan should be given that ‘opportunity’ instead of the MRCPians who struggled for $$$ ourselves to get the qualification.Once we passed, we are ‘punished’ to do district posting again, separated from our family who motivated us so much to pass the exam.

    I just came back from Singapore for interviews at 2 different hospitals for the subspecialty i am interested in.The Singaporeans are very keen to accept Malaysians and they are extremely keen to
    to help us to become a Singapore CITIZEN and stay there for good.

    No need to bother about gazezzment here because I will not come back home to serve.

    Advance specialty training in Sg is recognized internationally (there is an exit exam) and those in the programme will have the chance for 1 yr fully sponsored overseas attachment. The bond is only 2 years.

    In conclusion, no point staying in the place where no one will listen to you or appreciate you. Just leave to Singapore with much better prospect, standards and pay….

  94. #94 by vin on Monday, 31 March 2008 - 12:03 am

    for the information of the above you cannot become a consultant ophalmologist in UK with FRCS(glasgow) now.Even in Glasgow. You need to have FRCOphth(UK) and complete 6to7 years of training and be exit certified.
    Singapore stopped recognizing FRCS(glasgow) much earlier than Malaysia.

  95. #95 by shin.geoffrey on Tuesday, 1 April 2008 - 11:35 am

    Vin .. Vin … Vin ..

    Who decides how can be the ophthalmologist in Malaysia?

    Hmm… you cannot compare the oversea system with Malaysia .. because every where the policy is different …

    If FRCS (Glasgow) cannot be the ophthalmologist, then please urge all the senior ophthalmologist in Malaysia to step down. Remember, almost 95% of them have not completed their HST in UK, have not completed 6 to 7 years of trainning in UK.

    Let’s be fair lah, Vin. If they can be gazetted, why not the present one? If they can be certified or gazetted, other must be allowed.

    If you decide to derecognise FRCS, please derecognise all of them once and for all. Why? they are all not fully trainned also.

    We demand a good explanation from them. With their explanation, we would like to apply on them. So, I hope they could give a very very good explanation.

    What a disguisting joke.

  96. #96 by hussainjahmad on Tuesday, 1 April 2008 - 12:29 pm

    Foreigners with unrecognised master degree from India, Africa and Bangladesh can be recognised by just undergoing 6 months of gazettment ..

    Previously Malaysian citizen with UK degree can be recognised by completing 18 months of gazettment.

    Now … Malaysian citizen with UK degree is not recognised and cannot be gazetted ..

    According to GO Chapter 5, there is no such thing as recognised degree …

    Everything is man made to dictate and rule … purely is selection process for the selected species and asre lickers ..

  97. #97 by fairness on Wednesday, 9 April 2008 - 4:56 pm

    can somebody tell me what is this academy of malaysia? is it a legal body? who give them the right to recognise or derecognise frcs/ mrcs?
    If a private opthalmologist in the AMM has the right to decide the future of the other junior opthalmologist ( recognation, gazettment , etc), there would be conflict of interest. they would try to shut all the doors so that no more private eye clinic will be set up around their great hospital to compete with them

  98. #98 by Dr Ophthalmologist on Friday, 11 April 2008 - 4:19 pm

    I would like to write to clarify a few points in response to the letter by Dr LMK and the other contributors.

    There are significant differences between the postgraduate ophthalmic degrees offered by the various royal colleges of surgery in the UK. FRCOphth (London) and FRCS (Edinburgh) in Ophthalmology which in addition to being examinations, also provide a formal structured specialist training programme and thus is given due recognition by the UK government. Upon the completion of specialist training (typically taking 7-8 years) and successfully passing the exit assessment, the trainee will be awarded Certificate of Completion of Specialist Training (CCST) or Certificate of Completion of Training (CCT) and would be eligible for registration in the General Medical Council (GMC) Specialist Register, UK. This registration would allow the doctor to practice as a specialist in the said field of expertise. Holders of FRCOphth (London), FRCS (Edinburgh), CCST and CCT in Ophthalmology are recognized as eye specialists in Malaysia without further training or supervision.

    In contrast, FRCS (Glasgow) in Ophthalmology in its current form DOES NOT offer any formalized specialist training programme. Therefore it is conceivable and possible to sit for and pass FRCS (Glasgow) in ophthalmology after 2 years of basic ophthalmology experience as a medical officer (or Senior House Officer) and importantly, without necessarily having any surgical training or experience in the field of ophthalmology. One could possibly obtain FRCS (Glasgow) in Ophthalmology without successfully performing ANY ophthalmic surgery. In view of this deficiency, holder of FRCS (Glasgow) in Ophthalmology who obtained the fellowship since 1999 is ineligible for registration with the GMC Specialist Register (UK) and thus would not be allowed to practice as a consultant ophthalmologist in the UK. In response to this, many countries including Singapore has withdrawn recognition from this degree.

    Taking the above information into account and in the interest of the Malaysian public at large, the specialty board of Ophthalmology of the National Credentialing Committee has decided that FRCS (Glasgow) in Ophthalmology obtained after 2003 will not be recognized. Since the series of meetings concerning this issue were convened in 2002-2003, the board has not retrospectively derecognized in good faith those who have obtained FRCS (Glasgow) in Ophthalmology from 1999 – 2003. Subsequently this grace period was extended to 2005.

    It is true that Malaysia lack qualified specialists in all fields of medicine including ophthalmology. However the emphasis should be on quality rather than mere quantity. In order to progress, we need to bench mark our specialist training and credentialing against best practice. The current form of FRCS (Glasgow) in Ophthalmology fails in this respect and has been rightfully derecognized by the UK and other governments (including the Singapore government). It is therefore appropriate that the Malaysian government do likewise.

    As a remedy for those who are holding FRCS (Glasgow) in Ophthalmology who are in the UK who find themselves ineligible to practice as a consultant ophthalmologist in the UK or other countries (e.g. Singapore) since the withdrawal of recognition by the respective governments in 1999, they can try to obtain FRCOphth (London), FRCS (Edinburgh), CCST or CCT which are recognized in Malaysia. Alternatively, they should also be given the priority and be allowed to join the local Master in Ophthalmology programme. They may also be considered for exemption from the Part 1 Examination of the local Master programme and may join in year 2 or 3 depending on their existing experience. Admission to such programme should be transparent and based on meritocracy. However this will only be possible with the consent and agreement of the senate of the respective universities which is under the purview of the Ministry of Higher Education. Effort to ensure good and world class local specialist training should be pursued vigorously and continuously by the relevant government bodies and doctors alike. Hopefully this will eventually result in a world class health care available to all Malaysians.

  99. #99 by Dr Hanna on Saturday, 19 April 2008 - 10:27 am

    Dear Dr Ophthalmologist,

    Totally rubbish !!

    You are trying to divert all the people attendion to your points to cover your ass !!

    First of all, Dr Ophthalmologist, have you completed CCST in UK or Ireland?

    Second, since you have not completed CCST in UK, how come you are now a specialist? how come you are eligible?

    To be a specialist in the government sector, you only need to fulfil GO Chapter 5. Whereas, GO Chapter 5 does not indicate any qualification or time of assessment. You are playing god role now.

    To be a specialist in the government sector, upon passing your local master degree or UK qualification, you only need to go through a period of gazettement (6 to 18 months) then you are a specialist.

    Let us inform you that implementing your “exit” exam is against the legislation and federal law. The MP in the parliament makes the rule, not you.

    About your accusation on FRCS (Glasgow), “In contrast, FRCS (Glasgow) in Ophthalmology in its current form DOES NOT offer any formalized specialist training programme. Therefore it is conceivable and possible to sit for and pass FRCS (Glasgow) in ophthalmology after 2 years of basic ophthalmology experience as a medical officer (or Senior House Officer) and importantly, without necessarily having any surgical training or experience in the field of ophthalmology. One could possibly obtain FRCS (Glasgow) in Ophthalmology without successfully performing ANY ophthalmic surgery.”

    It is very wrong accusation, please clarify yourself or either DAP or PKR will demand a good explanation from you. Please do not spread your hearsay here.

    For the old FRCS regulation, like yourself, it takes at least 3 years of trainning before you are eligible to sit for the exam. 2 years as you have mentioned is wrong. In fact, FRCS (Glasgow) has extended the regulation now to 4.5 years.

    It is very furious you still have your face to defend yourself in the forum !!! you have been making people’s life so miserable.

    You are not doing it for the sake of the patients, you are doing it for the sake of your own ambition !!! You want everyone to lick your ass, right?

    People like you, I believe, a lot of people are preparing to take you to court. Wanna play god? we have nothing to lost, but, you, you are well established in Malaysia, can you affort to make your name infamous? do you have anywhere else to go? you push us to the corner, we will fight back.

  100. #100 by DR ophthal MS FRCS on Monday, 21 April 2008 - 12:13 am

    What Dr ophthalmolgist mentioned about FRCS ( glasgow) is not true, very misleading.
    (1) Candidate need at least 4.5years clinical experience to be eligible to sit for the exam , and the passing rate is only 20%-30%

    (2) Dr ophthalmologist mentioned that ” one could passed FRCS without necessarily having any surgical training and experience in the field of ophthalmogy” it is not true. the viva of FRCS glasgow divided into three section (a) ophthalmic medicine (b) neuro-ophthalmology and general medicine (c) ophthalmic surgery and pathology , candidate need to have good surgical training and experience to pass this section of viva. so i am sure dr ophthalmologist is not holding any FRCS qualification. may just a ” world-not-recognise” MS Tanah Malaysia

    (3) how many ophthalmogist with FRCS had completed ccst/cct ? very,very few .should we derecognise the FRCS holder without ccst/cct ?

    This bureaucrat in the specialist board of academy of medicine have abused the system , they had shut all the door from the young doctor to become ophthalmologist .( MRCS UK / Edinburgh is not recognise as a specialist ). Now the only way to become ophthalmologist is to join local master programme but the intake is not based on meritocracy . sad to say that it is base on NEP.

    Uncle Lim , please do something , FRCS glasgow should be recognised , These bureaucrat in AMM should not control the law in their hand.

  101. #101 by asurgess on Wednesday, 19 November 2008 - 2:44 pm

    well, i used to think training as a doctor in western world is wonderful, no discrimination, better pay, better training.
    yap. until i worked there myself.
    i now our eye specialist is not happy in UK and wants to come back to motherland. those who dont know the politics in medicine are free to comment. however, as a specialist myself, i have tasted the so called better life in western world and ponder. unfortunately for this UK eye specialist, he is stuck. i know why he wants to come back.
    he cant go up any more. he cant become a consultant and he finds the training for hands on is limited.
    he may think he earn a lot in UK pound, yes, direct conversion is naive. it is true if one does not eat, drink or need to sleep under a roof. at the end of the day, unless this doctor is the top 20% of the UK society, he will feel that his pay is the same or less than a builder, mechanic and he find it he cant go up any higher due to a glass ceiling. so his pay is just ok and he thinks in malaysia, once he goes into private, he will be printing $. this is probably true in singapore and hence he has not considered it. dont insult his intelligence as somebody thought it will be nice and print money in singapore. singapore will have its own politics and he will find it very hard to join half way.
    if it is so good, why would any idiot, like alone the brightest eye specialsit want to return to malaysia which rejected him. he is unhappy. may be lonely.
    and there is the person who sound proud his daughter who worked as an accountant who cant stand singapore went to uk and now thinking of australia. the father is missing the most important issue here, the daughter is lost, she cant fit in singapore , uk and let me tell u this, australia will be worse off than UK. you will also be a 5th class citizen after white, italian, greek, indian and middle east
    sorry guys, no where in the world is going to pad you on the back.
    in the end, many came back to malaysia quietly depressed.

  102. #102 by asurgess on Thursday, 20 November 2008 - 4:40 pm

    “anyway I will give you a benefit of doubt- one possibility is your information may not be current but I live here in Melbourne and I can see many Doctors of Asian background practising here

    Cheers”

    this is some lay man commenting on the medical professional by thinking it is easy for foreign doctors to work in australia. i guess for somebody who just migrated to australia. he or she wont understand. all those asian doctors are 95% local born and bread. And if you look carefully, the consultants, the bosses are 95% white. All the asian doctors u see are junior staff, who are destined to be forever support staff with the rare opportunity to become GP only after passing FRACGP. oh i guess nobody knows that coming. some all these asian doctors will be chronically registrar (mind u , are not going to get much perks) and will rarely reach the top. then there are the 5% happy new comer foreign doc from malaysia, after passing their FRACP exams again after their MRCP or former degree gets disrecognised. oh i bet nobody knowsMRCP is disrecognsed in aust. so why nobody complaining here. and for new comers, sorry, private practice is only allowed ten years after arrival. afraid? not yet. u will find that u will be still going back to look for your malaysian support group…
    so it is as i said. unless u can reach the top 20% in the society. it is the ame everywhere. it is just perception that overseas is rossier as most of those go there has grudge to settle as they are being bullied, rejected by motherland
    the only hope is to have a voice like lim kit siang. and to support him.
    there is no use in going overseas and self denial u are welcomed when in fact u are also a minority and your bosses are locals. u in fact are seeing a same scenario where ketuanan become colonial master but u wont see it as u are already rejected in motherland and u need to feel accepted.
    however, after a while. as some malaysians who migrated as doctor in aust find, that their colleagues in malaysia are better off. with new internet, more conference, more training perks since new DG, our skills are not bad. however as many will know if they are in the system that ratings are very subjective. people will tell u singapore is no 1 to live but when u go there, it is not that rossy. however people who are turned doen in malaysia, will force themselves to see the light.
    why i know, as i said, i am a seniro doctor of KKM who has worked in UK, singapore and australia. in the end, i realise, it is the same. and to bring up a family, i stand a better chance in malaysia
    u think there are no crimes in aust, uk or singapore, read the internet my friends.
    australia and singapore has a high suicide rate and they are both rated as no 1 to live. why? is it a survey biase or is there something wrong. surely suicide is not a fake?

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