In his international sojourns, one of Prime Minister, Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi’s favourite topics is to preach inter-faith dialogue, pointing to Malaysia as a model of inter-faith co-operation.
Back home in Malaysia, however, initiatives for inter-faith dialogue had never faced greater obstacles under the Abdullah administration with an unprecedented and lengthening catalogue of incidents aggravating religious polarization instead fostering greater inter-religious understanding and goodwill.
In the past two days, Malaysia again made international news with another deplorable episode undermining Malaysia’s reputation as a model for inter-faith co-operation – the latest body-snatching incident, this time over 74-year-old Gan Eng Gor when his body was seized by the police while his family (wife and seven children) was carrying out Buddhist rites in a Chinese funeral parlor.
This followed a complaint by his eldest son, Abdul Rahman Gan, a Muslim convert. He claimed his father had changed his religion from Buddhism to Islam last July, and identified as Amir Gan Abdullah should be buried according to Islamic rites.
The rest of the family challenged this claim.
#1 by waterfrontcoolie on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 2:22 pm
can some one change his belief by proxy? The father,accordingly to the mother had been incapacitated and stayed at home for some 2 years. Or is it by sms?
What is more important the unseen soul or the back to earth body?
I am really baffled! May be number counts, especially in the coming GE!
#2 by Kit on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 2:26 pm
The case was sent to the Syariah High Court and the syariah judge, Monhamad Nadzri Abdul Rahman told the Associated Press that he ruled in favor of the eldest son because the father’s wife and seven other children, who had disputed the conversion, were not in the syariah court and he couldn’t hear their arguments.
The family had gone to the civil court as it felt unfair for the case to be heard in a syariah court, but the civil court judge ruled that he had no jurisdiction in the matter as the syariah court had already made a decision.
There had been a spate of “body-snatchings†during the Abdullah administration seriously undermining inter-ethnic and inter-religious goodwill and relations – the most high-profile being the Moorthy case, where the Malaysian climber of Mount Everest was found by a court to be and buried as a Muslim, giving no recourse to his Hindu wife and family who maintained that he never converted.
(Part 2)
#3 by Kit on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 2:27 pm
The spate of “body snatching†cases is blot to Malaysia’s international reputation for inter-faith understanding, goodwill and co-operation. It causes great human sufferings, undermines family unit and values as well as subverts national unity and national integration in Malaysia.
I call on the Prime Minister to give his immediate attention to end “body snatchings†altogether in Malaysia to prove that the Islam Hadhari promoted by him does not countenance or condone “body snatchings†causing human suffering and family hardships with the police playing the role of enforcers of “body snatchers’.
(Speech at DAP Penang ceramah on “ISA detention of Hindraf 5†at the Penang Chinese Town Hall on Saturday, 26th January 2008)
#4 by bra888 on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 2:42 pm
http://hsiauchuen.wordpress.com/
I believe that this is a blog by the family members
#5 by Kit on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 2:50 pm
Addendum to my speech on this subject in Penang last night:
DAP and our lawyers led by National Chairman Karpal Singh had handled several of these cases in the past, and things might have turned out differently if Gan Eng Gor’s case had been referred to us – we can never know.
However, DAP Secretary-General Lim Guan Eng will visit the bereaved family in Seremban on Monday to see how we can be of help.
#6 by LittleBird on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 3:13 pm
During Moorthy’s case, the PM promised something will be done followed by 15 non muslim minister to prepare a memo but only to be addressed kurang ajar. The rest ran with tail in between the legs except for the Sabah Minister,I think.
After so many years do you really believe the BN or even PAS would feel like addressing the problem? Ever heard anything from your partners in upcoming election condomning the conduct of the parties concerned in yet another case, i.e. Ngiam’s. Could you believe people converting while seeking treatment with a bomoh?
Thank God,Yang Arif LAu Bee Lan was there to hear the matter. Otherwise, from previous trend they probably would have told Karpal to go to syariah court.
Injustice being repeated very often touching the most sensitive matter and yet no one wants to address this.
#7 by Bigjoe on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 3:28 pm
Why does the view/rights of a son precede that of the wife?
Why is no one asking the question what is going on for a son to go against the wishes of his mother? Even if Amir Gan is a Muslim, why is he being unfilial?
I don’t trust cowards. This story is very complicated if you ask me.
#8 by private_undergrad on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 3:45 pm
This case looks more like a family feud between the eldest son and the rest of the family than a religious affair.
To any legal experts here,
Could the bereaved family bring the case up to the international court, transcending M’sian laws?
#9 by Evenmind on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 3:47 pm
Sir Edmund Hiliary, 1st man to climb Everest was knighted and given a state funeral upon his death, What happened to the 1st Malaysian to climb Everest, nothing but misery just becos he was an indian, the family was insulted to the extent his dead body was snatched to prove thier point., man, even they did not let his soul to RIP (rest in peace)., Can anyone be so more cruel than this?
Oh God , pls have mercy on Malaysia, as this country is going to the dogs.
#10 by Tickler on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 3:51 pm
The PM can do nothing on this:
Wong Sulong has written in Islam Hadhari the way forward:
Chapter Five sketches the socio-political and intellectual background leading to the emergence of al-Ghazzali al-Tusi (1058-1111), arguably the most influential scholar of Islam, and one who had a deep influence on Abdullah.
http://thestar.com.my/news/list.asp?file=/2005/5/6/nation/10876555&sec=nation
Here is Al-Ghazali, evidently with no intention of departing either from Sufism or Muslim orthodoxy, writing about jihad war and the treatment of the vanquished non-Muslim dhimmi peoples:
[O]ne must go on jihad (i.e., warlike razzias or raids) at least once a year…one may use a catapult against them [non-Muslims] when they are in a fortress, even if among them are women and children. One may set fire to them and/or drown them…If a person of the Ahl al-Kitab [People of The Book – primarily Jews and Christians] is enslaved, his marriage is [automatically] revoked…One may cut down their trees…One must destroy their useless books. Jihadists may take as booty whatever they decide…they may steal as much food as they need…
[T]he dhimmi is obliged not to mention Allah or His Apostle…Jews, Christians, and Majians must pay the jizya [poll tax on non-Muslims]…on offering up the jizya, the dhimmi must hang his head while the official takes hold of his beard and hits [the dhimmi] on the protruberant bone beneath his ear [i.e., the mandible]… They are not permitted to ostentatiously display their wine or church bells…their houses may not be higher than the Muslim’s, no matter how low that is. The dhimmi may not ride an elegant horse or mule; he may ride a donkey only if the saddle[-work] is of wood. He may not walk on the good part of the road. They [the dhimmis] have to wear [an identifying] patch [on their clothing], even women, and even in the [public] baths…[dhimmis] must hold their tongue…. (From the Wagjiz, written in 1101 A.D.)
#11 by k1980 on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 3:57 pm
Gan Eng Gor and Maniam Moorthy (who climbed Everest and was buried a Muslim) had one thing in common— they both had a close relative who converted to Islam before they become sick. So be warned, when you are sick, do not allow your Muslim convert of a relative to be within 1,000 km from you.
#12 by gofortruth on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 4:46 pm
A letter from a daughter of Late Mr.Gan’s:-
http://bright-i.blogspot.com/
#13 by Tickler on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 4:52 pm
http://sean-the-man.blogspot.com/
#14 by k1980 on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 5:37 pm
I doubt if Mr Gan Eng Gor had been circumcized. Not having done so means he remained a non-muslim.
And this type of card won’t be admissible in a syariah court. Just be very careful about the son-of-a-Gan
http://bp1.blogger.com/_koFXUwAbrrI/R5sBefkfhvI/AAAAAAAABIQ/FxMZi7DkySo/s1600-h/card.jpg
#15 by Saint on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 5:58 pm
No words can pacify this double grief.
Saudara Kit, can any lawyers (in DAP) please take up this case.
Need to put a stop to this very seriously.
A large compensation suit may teach them a lesson.
#16 by gofortruth on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 6:08 pm
Its about time the Malaysian Buddhist & Taoist Associations stand up and make an official statement on this grave issue.
BTW Where is that “minister” who is supposed to look into this type of affair??????
#17 by gofortruth on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 6:14 pm
Oops I mean that MCA “minister”
#18 by ktteokt on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 6:23 pm
Dead men tell no lies!!!
#19 by Evenmind on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 6:48 pm
Sir Edmund Hiliary, 1st man to climb Everest was knighted and given a state funeral upon his death ( in New Zealand), What happened to the 1st Malaysian to climb Everest, nothing but misery just becos he was an indian, the family was insulted to the extent his dead body was snatched to prove thier point., man, even they did not let his soul to RIP (rest in peace)., Can anyone be so more cruel than this?
Oh God , pls have mercy on Malaysia, as this country is going to the dogs.
The above clearly illustrates the diffference betweeen two countries one is fully democratic and civilized country and the other is a country with rogue and uncivilized govt. where the rights of the minorities are constantly trampled upon.
Any hopes for salvation, anybody ?
#20 by scorpian6666 on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 7:25 pm
I only wish they would be as happy to accept a chinese muslim convert to become Malaysian next PM as much as they accept a chinese muslim convert to be buried with them.
Uncle … how about considering “converting” for the sake of Malaysia, at least you would stand a chance to be the next PM of Malaysia..
Ha Ha Ha
The way i see it, the Syariah High Court is playing “God”
Does God needs human who incapable of even to understand fully the Koran to pass judgements in regards to human’s belief.
Was the Koran intended to preach or was it an authority for those human who unlike God would never be perfect and could make “mistake”, to judge human in the place of God! How dare these human !!!
Judge human on the ground of human laws …. yes but not God’s law.
Maybe bless and help them see ……… love but not to judge
#21 by kowtim on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 7:28 pm
For Evenmind’s information, the first Malaysian to climb Mount Everest is N Magendran and he is still alive and kicking.
#22 by Libra2 on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 7:30 pm
However, DAP Secretary-General Lim Guan Eng will visit the bereaved family in Seremban on Monday to see how we can be of help.
I understand the family went to the MCA. Well what can we expect from the UMNO poodle.
#23 by k1980 on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 7:44 pm
…the family went to seek MCA’s help. I wonder if the whole lot were advised to follow the eldest’s son example and convert
#24 by cancan on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 8:05 pm
The family seems helpless.
My sincere condolences to the family,especially the mother who must have suffered the most.
I guess the eldest son must have a motive in doing this,with special regards to the islamic inheritance laws which always favor the muslims.
Our idiotic PM keeps on preaching about Islam Hadhari and interfaith overseas,while in Malaysia we see all the opposites that are being preached.
Can somebody compile all the body snatching cases and expose them to the international medias ?
We must expose these Islamic extremists for the whole world to see.
I am afraid the non-muslims are being bullied by these extremists.
We must do something now !
#25 by Libra2 on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 8:20 pm
In the desert only vultures go for dead bodies.
#26 by scorpian6666 on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 9:02 pm
Sorry Cancan … nothing much we could do..even if you exposed everyone of them coz the whole are full of them..
If UMNO could declared all Malay as muslim including those murderers, rapiest, corrupted, thieves, non-believer and the bomoh, for life, it would only take an idiot to not know this is not about Islam but about extremists, only the Malay themselves could help put it right before they destroy themselves.
Even the international muslim bodies couldn’t care less showing muslim might not be their belief but a brotherhood …… of extremist.
A true Muslim would have some compassion but where are they ?
Too few of them.. I am afraid
#27 by BoycottLocalPapers on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 9:26 pm
I feel so sorry and sad for the family.
Does anyone know what will happen to that dead man’s property? If I am not mistaken, according to Islamic law, all his properties will go to the eldest son who had converted to Islam earlier. If that is the case, then it is really unfair for the family.
If that is the case, I am afraid this Islamic law will be abused as any greedy son would just convert to Islam and claimed that his late father had converted to Islam before his death so that he could lay claim to all his properties.
I hope Yang Berhormat Lim Kit Siang, would do something about this case as I am really scared of living in Malaysia under Islam Hadhari where dead bodies were snatched ruthlessly from family members.
Dr Mahathir’s version of Islam is much better than Islam Hadhari of PAK LAH (Godfather). At least under Dr M, most of the problems in Malaysia mainly revolved around corruption among BN politicians. Under PAK LAH (Godfather), they are not satisfied with stealing rakyat’s money. They even wanted to steal dead bodies. This is really scary. I better find a new job in Singapore, Australia, or USA. There is no hope for Malaysia as it is becoming more like Pakistan.
#28 by cancan on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 9:39 pm
Scorpian666,thanks for your reply.
This case really saddens me and I am afraid there are many more such cases to come.
As mentioned by you and I truly believe,there are many compassionate muslims who do not agree with this body snatching case.
Sadly,none dare to challenge the religious authorities and help the non-muslims.
As I have mentioned,our idiotic PM keeps on preaching his Islam Hadhari to the world while in Malaysia,the religious authorities are doing all the opposites.
By exposing to the international medias,I really mean the western medias and which I hope can at least help the non-muslims to fight for justice.
#29 by firstMalaysian on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 9:51 pm
It seems that there is also a race for votes in the ‘ after world’ …Malaysian style. One body snatched away is ‘equivalent’ to one vote’ Certainly, Malaysia Boleh!
#30 by Loyal Malaysian on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 10:05 pm
This a sad case is initiated by the Muslim-convert son of the deceased. He must be one of those ‘extremist’ after converting to another religion. But the handling of the case by the religous authorities is really ridiculous – yes, another body-snatching case fits the description perfectly. Can anything be done? Will anything be done? I really have no idea !
#31 by malaysiatoday.com on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 10:54 pm
Refer to “Malaysian Buried As Muslim After Dispute”, about a legal tussle to claim their father remains. By right, this sort of family tragic incident should not happen at all.
IF a paralysed and speechless (due to a stroke) pork eating man who know nothing about islamic teachings and someone claimed he had converted to Islam by showing his thumbprint is on a “masuk islam†certificate and/or testified by a few weak or bias witnesses.
What happen if someone puts my thumbprint on a “masuk islam†certificate when I am in sleep or drunk? Can I disqualify myself from this kind of unconscious or involuntarily conversion?
Syariah Court ruling is not just hurting the family of deceased man, it also tarnishing the image of Islam.
Why civil court has no jurisdiction on this case? The High Court should has the legal power to determine the conversion process of a non-Muslim (prior he converted to Muslim) is done within the constitutional liberty rights or not.
Federal Court already ruled that a marriage registered in civil court can be judged by the High Court even one of the couple already converted to Islam.
Why Seremban High Court is so chicken out to judge on a religious conversion procedure for a Buddhist or Taoist to islam is valid or not?
Let non-Muslim judge to handle this sort of cases if a Muslim judge in a civil court is obliged to obey his/her own religious teaching and cannot act impartially.
The long-term solution is enacting a new law to mandate non-Muslims to apply for a “religious revoke certificate” from a civil court before he/she is allowed to convert to islam. This new ruling can effectively preventing any secretive or unnoticed or unlawful religious conversion from one religion to another religion for non-Muslims.
What is the motif behind his eldest son?
A hypothesis says is to make sure that all inheritance of late Gan must pass on to him under the Bolehland’s islamic law if his father was a Muslim.
#32 by necromancer4good on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 10:56 pm
They want the dead man’s money and property. As we know, once he is declared as one of them, his non muslim wife and children will not be able to inherit his wealth. This is a legalised way of stealing from the dead and their children.
[deleted]
#33 by undergrad2 on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 10:59 pm
YB Kit,
Non-Muslims among Malaysians may call it “body snatching” but others may call it “doing justice to the deceased who is unable to speak for himself or herself and for whom their only voice is the law†– and the law says only the Syariah Courts have jurisdiction over all matters concerning the religion of Islam: Art. 121(1A) of our Federal Constitution 1957.
The unsatisfactory state of our laws has been used by bigots and opportunists among our politicians and public officials to send out their political message which is nation-building through Islamization. It is political Islam at its best. The fact that some 40% do not share that ‘national’ aspiration does not seem relevant to them.
Within the context of the coming general elections, we need to acknowledge that this issue is one of the most divisive. We need to ask how this works out in the context of the electoral alliance between DAP/PKR/PAS. The more DAP is heard vehemently protecting the rights of non-Malays and non-Muslims who may be in danger of falling within the cracks that Article 121(1A) has opened, the more alienated PAS and their supporters and perhaps to a lesser extent PKR would become.
There is a point in the mathematics of the politics of religion akin to the law of diminishing returns in economics, beyond which votes are lost and none is gained.
#34 by jus legitimum on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 11:36 pm
Obama a black American is likely to become the President of America ,a country dominated by a very big majority white people.Do you think a non Malay muslim convert can become our PM?Wait till the sun rises from the west.
#35 by justice6 on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 11:51 pm
[deleted]
#36 by malaysiatoday.com on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 11:54 pm
jus legitimum Says:
===
An old stroy when I was in u.
A chinese handsome looking muslim convert (he was my coursemate) was elected as the president of student union after very strong support from his female malay muslim fans.
He was forced to resign because the committe dominated by malay muslims “isolated” him from fucntioning as a president.
No such thing as true muslim brotherhood, your color skin is still counted at the end of the day.
Do you believe Obama can be elected as American president?
I say no way. Wanna bet with me? Let’s have 1 ringgit bet, ok.
#37 by HB Lim on Monday, 28 January 2008 - 12:02 am
The Police went to snatch away the body. What has the Police to do with personal laws?
The Police should have warned the Muslim zealots not to disturb the peace and if they still want to go ahead, to get a court order to do so. The Police should not make up their mind that the dead man was a Muslim and help the Muslims snatch his body.
They forcibly take possession and the family cannot do anything because the Police was there. If the Police was not there, I doubt the family would sit and watch them take away the body. Once they had taken the body, the family is then put to pursue the case in court. The pursuer of a case is more often than not on the losing end or at a disadvantage.
We should focus on the police action or conduct in this case. Can they do what they have done to the poor family? If the Police were to be allowed to be so partisan in matters of religion, the Muslims would get more arrogant.
If the deceased was found later not to be a Muslim, a terrible, cruel and unforgiveable wrong would have been committed. It is utterly inhuman, utterly unGodly to so arrogantly snatch away a dead body from and in the presence of the family of the dead man. Is it only in Malaysia that this sort of things is happening?
#38 by damianyeow on Monday, 28 January 2008 - 12:06 am
We all know this is going on everyday, in fact it started when ‘the religion’ was made the official religion . We can debate all day & all nite, but how to solve it? The answer is to have 5 official religion that all citizens can choose from, similar to Indonesia’s pancasila.
How to achieve this? Let every known non-muslim, non-malay in M’sia know that this is our fundamental democratic right to choose which god we wish to worship. we cannot hope for a Malay to support this becoz they cannot, they will be seen as traitors by those fanatics. How to meet this goal, the next election is the best time, but alas the non-Malay population has been drastically reduced to less than 40%, there are progressive Malays, again religion-concern their hands are tied. M’sia is a democratic country is it not? then how come we cannot choose what we want to be, if we find a particular religion not suitable we cannot leave it, is this not a communist doctrine? Every single non-Malay citizen
should fight for this right, thru voting for the opposition, that can be no other than DAP or PKR, where is Hindraf? they should be forming a party & preparing to fight their cause at this coming election, otherwise the sacrifice of the 5 brave men is only in vain, for nothing. Alas there are unprincipled , ignorant,selfish,people such as those in MCA, MIC,Gerakan who are actually assisting this future ‘Taliban gomen’ to erode our fundamental rights…I cannot understand every elections, people in PJ,Subang Jaya,Seremban, Kota Melaka still vote for this ‘traitors’…what do the voters there think they achieve, peace so that u can continue yor job, life as normal & pretend everything is OK, as long as I get my daily rice-bowl, how ignorant, for how long, new jobs are not coming, in fact there is no more new investment coming here. You mean to say that if BN lose 2/3 majority, there will be riots & racial-fights, that means to say the UMNO-putras are nothing like thugs & gangsters & Ah-longs, if ‘I don’t get my way, I’ll beat & punish you’. This is not democracy, this is gangster goverment, look at how the police handle the hindraf/PKR supporters, thousands of them, how come so many are available for ‘fix-up’ peaceful demonstaters, but when a robber break into my hse in Puchong ,”takada manpower lah encik,kereta peronda pun takada”. I don’t know, if this people (PJ voters esp) cannot open their eyes, & stop thinking just about their own self, then the whole country is doom. The plain truth is
simple & clear, the “Umno-gomen” is doing everything it can to erode yor rights & thinking for every possible ways to take yor job & business away & deny u university places, & u still want to vote
for these 3 clowns-MCA,MIC & Gerakan?,I just cannot understand.
Its happening in front of your eyes ,its in the news, its in the Internet. joining MCA will only give u a temporary privilege, maybe to small business contract, that’s all, are u that blind to pick out crumbs when you can fight yor rights for yor fair share of the economic pie. I can summarize all this in this one sentence, vote BN
=yes, u can have your rice-bowl for now BUT bleak future for you & thanks for your selfish attitude=no future for your children. They will thank you when they migrate overseas & leave u to rot in this “Boleh-land” So thank you so much………..
#39 by justice6 on Monday, 28 January 2008 - 12:07 am
[deleted]
#40 by DarkHorse on Monday, 28 January 2008 - 12:17 am
It’s not clear who is snatching whose body.
#41 by jus legitimum on Monday, 28 January 2008 - 12:17 am
Malaysiatoday.com,
I did not say Obama will become the President of America but I did say he was likely to become one.OK?
In Malaysia,no need to talk about the possiblity of becoming the PM,a non Malay plus convert cannot even smell the post of say MOF.MOD or MOE or MOITR.
#42 by HB Lim on Monday, 28 January 2008 - 12:22 am
According to the news, the Muslims went with the Police to snatch the body.
#43 by jc on Monday, 28 January 2008 - 12:54 am
I wonder whether these people possess any intelligence (not mentionng wisdom)? How sure are they that the dead person had actually converted to their religion? They might foolishly and unwittingly buried someone from another religion for free, and thereby sacrileging their own sacred ground! It is a consolation, indeed!
#44 by BoycottLocalPapers on Monday, 28 January 2008 - 1:24 am
Is MCA, or Gerakan, or MIC doing anything about this body theft by irreligious bigots?
#45 by paix on Monday, 28 January 2008 - 1:45 am
Why did the police get involved in this? This was a civil matter between the eldest son and the rest of the family. The police should only be involved in criminal cases.
All you non-muslims in bodohland have no chance. Your rights are being trampled. All a muslim has to do is to bring any disputes between the two of you before a syariah court and you are toast.
#46 by malaysiatoday.com on Monday, 28 January 2008 - 6:01 am
A MCA politician was there to help out.
The problem is a Malay High Court judge automatically ceded his power to Syariah court as usual by proclaming that he has no jurisdiction to handle islamic matters.
Gan’s family shall appeal Gan’s case to Federal Court by arguing that late Gan is still a Toaist.
#47 by cheng on Monday, 28 January 2008 - 7:22 am
Now we have a solution for homeless people. When they die, first claim that they are Buddhist, then someone comes out and claim they are Muslims. Give them a “win” then, and thank these idiots for the free burial. They need to “win” to overcome their inferiority complex. Eh, no, wait a minute, it’s not free, these idiots are paid from my taxes.
By the way, Gan’s widow said that Gan was still eating pork before his death. Hmm… Who was buried next to Gan?
#48 by waterfrontcoolie on Monday, 28 January 2008 - 8:03 am
I do agree with Cheng, ‘back to earth’ which all of us will one day. Take such action as free ride for the last journey of life. Some take pride in such undertaking after failing to do it right when the dead was alive. May the CREATOR have mercy on the human race!! They have put more importance to a body after the soul had gone. Back to earth man!! It would appear body count is more important to some; if you REALLY believe in HIM, and you have not practice the TRUTH, would HE accept this as a contribution? RITUAL! RITUAL! RITUAL!!!!!! bUT NO SUBSTANCE!!
#49 by Jeffrey on Monday, 28 January 2008 - 8:24 am
“The Police went to snatch away the body. What has the Police to do with personal laws?†– HB Lim
By “personal laws†he meant religious sharia law promulgated by states governing muslims as distinct from Federal Law applicable to all. For convenience (not precision) of discussion, I call the former “God’s laws†and the latter, “Secular Lawsâ€.
HB Lim raises an interesting question, seldom, if at all discussed in public domain – probably it is taken for granted ? – whether Royal Malaysian Police (a Federal police) could besides enforcing Secular Laws also enforce states’ God’s Laws!
The better view in answer to the question is regrettably for nion muslims an affirmative yes – both from jurisprudential and secular constitutional and/law standpoints.
Jurisprudential : any first year law student reading Hart on “What is law†will learn that law is State sanctioned and backed in terms of enforcement by the State ( with capital “S†used in this context as the political polity/country). Therefore if the State (used in the above context) recognizes the God’s Laws promulgated by the other states (with small alphabet/letter “s†used in context of Selangor, Malacca & Parak etc), then the State’s enforcement agency – the Federal Police – can help back enforcement of the latter with or without any other state’s police morality police or rela’s help.
This seems to bear out based on the other standpoint of Constitution and specific law ie the Police Act as well.
The Constitution itself under 9th Schedule/State list sanctions the states’ enacting personal sharia God’s Laws for application to people professing Muslim faiths. So God’s Laws are also within definition of “laws†wherever references are made to it in the Constitution or laws made by parliament under it including Police Act governing police.
Under the Police Act (section 19) a police officer shall perform duties and exercise powers under that Act as well as “
or any other law at any place in Malaysia†which would include personal Sharia law at state level. This is because God’s Laws are still laws (at level of secular laws interpretation).
At bureaucracy level – with our Islamisation process deepening at all fronts – no bureaucrat and certainly no policeman or police womean (with tudung) will ever question the premise that the police (PDRM) is empowered to help enforce sharia even if it implicates “body snatching†as YB Kit describes it. Such enforcement at practical as well as psychological or emotional level may even enjoy administrative ascendancy over other mundane duties of catching snatch thieves.
One anomaly arising from the above general position that needs clarification was something that happened a while ago when PAS was ruling Terengganu and Hadi/Terengganu’s state government, passed the “hudud” penal code, which proposed, among other things, chopping off thieves’ hands and feet and stoning adulterers to death. Malaysian Federal police have resolutely refused to enforce the Islamic justice system approved in an opposition-ruled state. How is this reconcilable with above general position?
Well perhaps in two ways:
First the Hudud squarely contradicts the secular Federal criminal law – Penal Code. (For eg the latter does not deem adultery an offence while Hudud talks of stoning if not decapitation).
At least in body snatching it is argued that the body snatched was not that of a non muslim (whose rights on religion are protection by article 11 of Constitution) but that of a Muslim squarely under sharia…..Of course it is conveniently forgotten that non muslim next of kins are protesting their rights infringed but how that claim stands in relation to the controversial article 121(1) A of the constitution bifurcating 2 mutually exclusive sharia and civil jurisdictions is better left for discussion another day.
Suffice to say – and this is the second reconciliatory point – in respect of Terrengganu’s hudud law, police spokesman explaining why Federal Police would not enforce said “ We have been given guidelines on what we should do and shouldn’t doâ€.
And he is right : the police follows guidelines from the top, Ministry of Home Affairs. For section 20(1) and (2) of the Police Act clarify that in the performance of his duties, a police officer is subject to the orders and directions of his superiors in the Force (taking orders from the top in Federal government) and not the order of the executive of state governments.
In the body snatching cases, it is apparent that Minister of Home Affairs has yet to give directive to Federal Police not to get involved – as in the Terengganu’s Hudud case.
Perhaps because of non muslim next of kin rights being involved competing against state religious authority the police should not involve until and after the Sharia court or civil court has made a judicial decison in the basis of which enforcement then only begins, not before. But these people are not interested in this kind of hair splitting argument dintingusihing between before and after Sharia Court’s decision. As I said earlier all matters relating to sharia are given deference, administrative ascendency in expedience of enforcement.
#50 by undergrad2 on Monday, 28 January 2008 - 8:36 am
Jeffrey,
The police were there to ensure there is no public disturbance and to enforce public order, not to enforce syariah law.
#51 by Jeffrey on Monday, 28 January 2008 - 8:48 am
Even if that were the pretext, can it be sustained?
Supposing I am next of kin in the wake conducted in the compound of my residence, and rerligious officers come with police, and religious officers forcibly open the coffin or casket to remove the deceased which, in my property I have right to resist. Do you think that the police is there to keep order to stop the rerligious police from doing that or help them overcome me?
In other context eg raids, police come with religious officers not to keep order but to help restraint and bundle off alleged offenders of sharia.
As I said the Police Act empowers them to enforce all other laws anywhere. Wouldn’t the general word “laws” include sharia promulgated by the states but sanctioned by Constitution in 9th Schedule under State list?
#52 by Jeffrey on Monday, 28 January 2008 - 8:57 am
If one maintains public disturbance and to enforce public order, one should restraint those who come to my house (where to quote Lingam, its my castle) to forcibly open the sealed casket/coffin within and take away by force the body of my spouse or parent against my protest or resistance. It is not as if I am creating a public disturbance or disrupting public order by having altercation with religious officer outside my house or “castle” – in the public thoroughfare or other public places wher the police steps in….The police comes inside my house to restraint me if I should resist the other taking away the dead body (which is still my property isn’t it)? So how can that – restraining me against aggresive/forcible initiatives of intruders into my castle – pass off as keeping public order and preventing public disturbance?
#53 by undergrad2 on Monday, 28 January 2008 - 9:02 am
“Do you think that the police is there to keep order to stop the rerligious police from doing that or help them overcome me?”
Good question.
There is a thin line that separates the two. I feel it is not the job of the police to enforce duties which properly belong to officials from the Islamic Religious Department. Their presence is to maintain public order. In other words they are not to involve themselves directly – like handling the body of the deceased or going into the funeral home to assist.
#54 by undergrad2 on Monday, 28 January 2008 - 9:05 am
Dark Horse earlier was right to inquire as to who is actually snatching the dead body?
#55 by ktteokt on Monday, 28 January 2008 - 9:23 am
Since when PDRM changed its name to “SYARIAH POLICE”?
#56 by DiaperHead on Monday, 28 January 2008 - 9:25 am
Polis Di-Raja Moral Polis or PDRM??
#57 by malaysiatoday.com on Monday, 28 January 2008 - 9:47 am
Perhaps because of non muslim next of kin rights being involved competing against state religious authority the police should not involve until and after the Sharia court or civil court has made a judicial decison in the basis of which enforcement then only begins, not before. But these people are not interested in this kind of hair splitting argument dintingusihing between before and after Sharia Court’s decision. As I said earlier all matters relating to sharia are given deference, administrative ascendency in expedience of enforcement.
===
As reported in papers, police even went to meet high court judge with Gan’s non-muslim son.
Although Syariah court ordered the remains to be taken out by 11am, police did compromise with Gan’s family until injunction hearing in high court at 4PM was done.
So, don’t make baseless assumption against police.
#58 by BoycottLocalPapers on Monday, 28 January 2008 - 10:22 am
Snatching & Robbing bodies of dead people from their family members is not God’s law but law of the heartless cruel irreligious idiots!!!
If MCA, Gerakan & MIC cannot do anything to help us, then what is the use of supporting them?
This is not the time for MCA, Gerakan, MIC, & DAP to be bickering with each other or trying to be seen as championing the cause of the Chinese, Indians, non-bumiputera, or non-Muslims. This issue concerns all of us – whether we support MCA, Gerakan, MIC, or DAP, they are still going to rob dead bodies and snatch the dead bodies from their family members.
It is very depressing to know that whether we support UMNO or PAS, these cruel irreligious body snatchers will still be in power.
I used to support BN in the past, not because I agree with their policy or apartheid system they are practising, but because I have no choice as DAP was working with PAS. Now, even though I don’t like the idea of DAP working indirectly with PAS, I have no choice but to support DAP.
Non-Muslims and non-Malays in Malaysia have no one to turn to for help. Can the United Nations or United States of America help us? The situation in Malaysia is worse than South Africa. The apartheid system in South Africa has ended more than a decade ago. But racial discrimination and religious discrimination will not going to end anytime soon unless the United Nations, European Union, & United States of America pressurize our heartless leaders and pass a resolution, condemning Malaysia apartheid policies and also call for trade embargo. This is unlikely to happen and that is why the UMNO-led government will continue to bully the minority in Malaysia.
There is no hope for Malaysia as we are becoming the next Pakistan and Afghanistan. By that time, it is too late for all of us. We will be living in fear of our lives daily. Those who are lucky are those who have migrated to UK, US, Australia, or Singapore. Those who are unlucky have no choice but to stay and live under discrimination and persecution.
If our forefathers originally aspired to be like Pakistan or trying to emulate Pakistan & Saudi Arabia, then why our flag is not green like Pakistan & Saudi Arabia? Why our flag looks more like the flag of the United States of America than the flag of Pakistan? Isn’t our flag a proof that our forefathers originally intended to emulate the success of USA? If that is not the reason, then why our flag looks similar to US flag? Plagiarized from US flag?
#59 by BoycottLocalPapers on Monday, 28 January 2008 - 10:50 am
Actually, I was wrong in saying that Malaysia is going to be like Pakistan and Afghanistan. The truth is Malaysia is going to be worse than Pakistan and Afghanistan. In Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Palestine, people of the same race and same relligion killed each other daily. So if people of the same race and same religion have no problem in killing each other, then you can imagine the worse for Malaysia.
The only reason why this is not happening yet in Malaysia that I can think of is that the Malay race is generally kinder, more civilized and more tolerant than the Pakistanis and the Arabs. With the number of students sent to study in madrasahs in Pakistan in the past, I doubt that the future Malay would be as kind and tolerant as the Malays in the past. Just look at Southern Thailand. It is scary to even think about our future in this country.
#60 by Cinapek on Monday, 28 January 2008 - 11:06 am
As I understand from the press reports, this case was brought before the Syariah Court that ruled in favour of the Islamic authorities and the converted son because the family members refused to submit to the Syariah court. The High court chickened out and defered to the Syariah court ruling.
This farce is a “head I win, tail you lose” situation. Even if the family submits to the Syariah court they will be told that they have no standing because they are not Muslims. And they were right not to submit and instead went to the civil courts, which decided to take the easy way out and subordinated themselves to the Syariah court.
Such situations are developing into very dangerous precedents. In future, any interested party could fake some conversion papers and declare a person has converted. The converted person cannot disagree because he or she is already dead. The Syariah court could on the basis of the fake conversion papers declare the dead person converted because the family members, being non muslims, cannot dispute the conversion claim because they have no standings in the Syriah court. And as for the civil courts, you can expect them to subordinate themselves to the Syariah court just as in this case. This kind of cases with the inevitable body snatching is a powder keg waiting to explode. Someday, sometime, some bereaved family who is convinced that their dead family member had not converted despite the claims, might take the law into their own hands if they think they cannot find justice in the legal system.
#61 by fighter on Monday, 28 January 2008 - 11:45 am
YB Kit, please ask family members of the Gan , Moorthy and others who are affected by the gross injustices of Clause 121(1A) be present in DAP’ rallies in the coming GE to brief the public, the agonies and anguishes they sufferred under this Clause.You were successful in the Teoh’ case before and this was worse than the Teohs.
If the non-Muslims and others did not express outrage and take any action to moblise people’s attention on the cruelty in these cases,then we deserve to be treated as animals without feelings and emotions.
If a Civil Court does not want to hear an appeal from a non-Muslim for a redress,then the basic human rights of Malaysians have been trampled badly and should be resisted in the strongest form possible.
If such cases are not addressed both legally and politically quickly, then things will get much worse.There are alot of people who either does not like us or who want our properties, will definitely claim that we are Muslims when we die, as they know very well the High Court will throw any challenge taken by our loved ones that we were not Muslims before our death. Thus, for the sake of our loved ones we MUST TAKE ACTION IMMEDIATELY on this matter otherwise they will curse us for our INACTION.
#62 by sheriff singh on Monday, 28 January 2008 - 1:38 pm
So what is the new Chief Justice of Malaysia going to do about this?
He promised alot of things when he took over office about 3 months ago, so what now?
Will he continue to let his Courts kow-tow to the Syariah Courts? Will he continue to wash his hands like Pontius Pilate?
#63 by AntiRacialDiscrimination on Tuesday, 29 January 2008 - 2:58 pm
Successfully snatching the dead body means successfully snatching all the estate of that deceased person. Its all about money money money……..It is the money that counts, not the dead body.
This is the signature characteristic of UMNO Muslims —> snatching money from all Malaysians at all cost.
#64 by boomingray on Wednesday, 30 January 2008 - 9:25 am
fidelities are laughing all the way to the bank after relative’s death,these are the punishments to the kafirs!
#65 by boomingray on Wednesday, 30 January 2008 - 9:32 am
95% holding powers are the fidels,,wat do u expect?sigh,just sigh!
who ask u to be kafir?
#66 by HB Lim on Wednesday, 30 January 2008 - 11:15 pm
We analyse the scenario step-by-step.
The Muslims went to lodge a police report. What do they say in the report? That the deceased was a convert and that they want to go and take his body for a Muslim burial.
I suppose this is a matter of such magnitude, taking a dead man’s body from his family is no small matter, as to require the IO on duty to at least take a few statements and investigate the matter. The Muslims, including the deceased’s converted son would have been called for the investigation. They would have given their version of the story.
Were the non-Muslim members of the family of the deceased called in to help in the investigation? If not, the Police should not just listen to one side’s allegation, come to a conclusion that what they had said were true and help them in the snatching. Even if the non-Muslims members of the family were not called to help in the investigation, the Police should have just advised the Muslims to get a court order as this was patently a civil (as opposed to a criminal) matter.
Assuming the non-Muslim family members were called, the Police would have been confronted with another set of story which would put them in a even more cautious position. They should just stay away from making a decision as to which version was true and advise the parties to go to court to have their dispute settled.
If at all, the Police should station themselves within the compound of the non-Muslim house or funeral parlour to prevent the Muslims from causing a breach of the peace.
As I have said, if the Police had not gone with the Muslims to snatch the body, would the non-Muslim members just sit back and allow them to do so? As I have also said, there is a litigation tactical advantage to the party who has possession of the body.
The Police is supposed to be impartial in this sort of situation.
I do not know the details but the Muslims could have obtained a Syariah Court order before they proceeded to enlist the help of the Police and proceeded to snatch the body. If so, the focus should be on the manner the order was obtained. Who is the defendant? Was he infrormed of the application for the order? Etc etc. I do not claim any knowledge of syariah law but I am thinking now to go deeper into it so that I will know if a defendant can be a non-Muslim or if a defendant is necessary at all in ?Syariah Court, the kind of proof needed for the equivalent of an ex parte order, etc etc.
Maybe it is too late in the day to reverse the the Constitutional position of the Syariah Court. What we non-Muslims should do is to have a deep knowledge of true Syariah law and fight those extremists in their court. I for one do not think that the laws of God would encourage such outrageous act towards another human being. If so, He cannot be a great God to deserve our reverence.