DAP-PKR seats talks too slow – must be wrapped up by end-Jan as polls in 40 days


Sin Chew Daily today reported that Parliament would be dissolved on the eighth day of the Chinese New Year (i.e. 14th February 2008), with Nomination Day immediately after Chap Goh Mei (21st February) and polling on 2nd or 3rd March, 2008.

The probability of the next general election falling in the first weekend of March is very high, which would mean that a new Parliament could be elected within 40 days!

Earlier, speculation of the next general election focused primarily on March 15 or the weekend before it. However the option of March 15 for the next general election will have to be ruled out if the Prime Minister, Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi is serious about his announcement in Spain last week for the First Alliance of Civilisations Annual Forum that he would be in Senegal in March to hand over the chairmanship of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference (OIC). This is because the OIC Summit is fixed for March 13-14, 2008 for Dakar, Senegal.

With the 12th general election falling right smack during the Chinese New Year, all political parties, leaders and members will have very little time to celebrate Chinese New Year this year, which begins in a fortnight’s time.

I am very disappointed that there had been agonizingly little progress in the DAP-PKR talks for an electoral understanding to ensure a one-to-one contest with the Barisan Nasional, avoiding three-cornered fights which can only benefit the Barisan Nasional in the past two weeks.

Both parties had reached an electoral understanding on January 7, 2008 on the allocation of parliamentary and state assembly seats in Penang, which was announced in a joint media conference by leaders from both parties in Penang on 9th January 2008.

Leaders of both parties had hoped that the Penang agreement would act as a catalyst for the speedy conclusion of seats negotiations for all states in the country so that all energies and resources could be focused single-mindedly in cutting down the Barisan Nasional behemoth with its 91% parliamentary majority down to size in the next general election.

But this has not been the case, as precious little progress had been achieved in the other states in the past two weeks since the Penang agreement apart from Negri Sembilan.

Even for Negri Sembilan, where the state DAP and PKR announced agreement yesterday to take on the Barisan Nasional in straight fights, the announcement was only confined to the state assembly seats although agreement had earlier been reached by both state leaderships for parliamentary and state assembly contests as well. However, as a result of national PKR intervention, the announcement on DAP-PKR pact in Negri Sembilan was only confined to state assembly seats leaving the parliamentary seats unsettled.

I am particularly disappointed at the agonizingly slow progress in DAP-PKR seats negotiations for I had stuck my neck out to break the stalemate to ensure that the DAP-PKR electoral agreement for Penang was reached on January 7, although DAP was subsequently accused of compromising its position and yielding to PKR pressures.

Such accusation from Barisan Nasional parties and personalities are to be expected, but there are also PKR claims of this nature, like SMS which immediately made the rounds after the announcement of the DAP-PKR electoral understanding for Penang that it was achieved after public threats by a certain PKR leader.

Perak was meant to be the next state for an electoral agreement to be reached after Penang but the differences between the two state parties seem to be as wide as ever, with even the PKR National Vice President publicly reiterating PKR interest to contest in Ipoh Timur parliamentary seat.

I find such lack of progress most disappointing. By now, all parties should be making their final plans for the general election battle which will be over in 40 days – and not still bogged down by seats negotiations.

For instance, PKR should be helping the DAP in its plans to wrest another three parliamentary seats from the Barisan Nasional in Perak namely Bruas, Taiping and Teluk Intan instead of publicly laying claim to these and other seats which are the focus of DAP efforts in the coming general election, including Ipoh Timur.

Let me try to resolve the DAP-PKR logjam in the electoral talks in Perak. If Perak PKR leaders are so insistent in wanting to contest in Ipoh Timur, let there be an agreement where a three-cornered fight is allowed for Ipoh Timur involving DAP: and PKR provided full agreement on a one-to-one fight against the Barisan Nasional for all other parliamentary and state assembly seats is immediately reached for Perak.

There is no more time to lose. I will go one step further and call for full conclusion of the DAP-PKR talks on electoral agreement for all states by the end of January, i.e. in a week’s time.

If general election is held by the first weekend of March, there are only some 30 days left to fight the 12th general election.

Let 31st January 2008 be the deadline for the conclusion of the electoral talks between DAP and PKR. I hope both parties can reach an electoral understanding for a one-to-one contest against the Barisan Nasional in the forthcoming general election, but if we cannot reach agreement, then let this be decided and known instead of dragging it out indefinitely, which will not serve the cause of cutting the Barisan Nasional behemoth down to size in the 12th general election.

  1. #1 by hflee on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 1:13 pm

    Will this again prove that every politician is about themself first and foremost before the people? Will this self-serving act of self-sabotage of the opposition work in the favor of only BN?

    Why does it still escape the opposition that at this moment in time, a lot of the good-will from the rakyat are because of the anti-government feeling. Malaysia-Today has rightly pointed out that a lot of opposition vote will be an AGAINST-BN rather than FOR-Opposition. Yet faced with this golden opportunity in decades, the opposition has decided to squander it by in-fighting and bickering within. How are you all different from BN in this manner?

  2. #2 by Thegame on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 1:14 pm

    Opposition parites for god sake get your act together real fast.The ppl ready are you ready?

  3. #3 by voice on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 1:37 pm

    I’m supporting any opposition party here in Taiping, DAP or PKR

  4. #4 by Wurotzman on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 1:37 pm

    The people from the present administration (BN) are clapping their hands while drinking wine and talking rubbish while you guys are fighting against each other. Prove them wrong! Work together and not against each other!

  5. #5 by mendela on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 1:51 pm

    “The Liberal Democratic Party (?????, Jiy?-Minshut??), frequently abbreviated to LDP or Jimint? (???, Jimint??), is a conservative political party and the largest party in Japan. It has ruled for most of the years since its founding in 1955.” Wikipedia.

    One obvious reason why LDP so strong all this years was Japan oppositions were not united. Most of the constituencies would have 5 or 6 candidates resulting LDP candidates always won big.

    But not anymore, DPJ (Democratic Party of Japan, a party formed not long ago from mergers of a few small parties) has recently won the control of Japan powerful upper house. DPJ is pressing the ruling LDP to dissolve the lower house now for a fresh election. It looks like DPJ might win quite easily if election is held now in Japan.

    The logic is clear: without a coalition (even a loose one will do), all our oppositions will go no where! It will be another 50 years of UMO’s steal and rot!

    Wake up, all opposition parties!
    It is now or never!
    For next our generations’ sake, pls be united and crash UMO and all its running dogs into pieces!

  6. #6 by Thegame on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 1:54 pm

    Hi.. hflee very well said.I just hope commonsense prevails at the end of the day.The ppl are ready to vote out BN but opposition is stuck with obsolete idealogies and beliefs.wake up please for the sake of country and its ppl.

  7. #7 by mendela on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 2:01 pm

    To DAP and PKR, make sure you bring out more young bloods this round.

    Remember, youthful, good looks, proper attire and sexiness sell.
    Gaya mesti ada!

  8. #8 by swee_ann_tweety on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 2:03 pm

    please stand united and trash barisan national! chew mei fun can talk about may 13 ( http://chinhuatw.wordpress.com/2008/01/22/chew-mei-fun-another-may-13-if-chinese-representation-in-bn-is-insufficient/ ) which is against rights of Malaysians!

  9. #9 by mendela on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 2:06 pm

    Can PKR or DAP draft Raja Petra to become a candiadate? I am sure he can beat any UMO heavyweight single-handedly!

  10. #10 by Libra2 on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 2:10 pm

    Whoever in PKR wants to contest Ipoh Timur seat must be real idiot or probably a BN mole.
    All current DAP seats must be contested by DAP candidates and if PRK wants to give victory to BN then so be it. Let it be 3 way fight and let that idiot lose his deposit in Ipoh Timur.

  11. #11 by boh-liao on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 2:16 pm

    Sad, sad, sad!

    The next GE is just round the corner and our opposition parties are still, like in previous GE, fighting among themselves over seats.

    No wonder BN continues to rape and rule the country, with no fear of being denied the 2/3 majority.

    At the end, opposition parties just shoot their own feet.

  12. #12 by HJ Angus on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 2:21 pm

    It is important for DAP and PKR to get their act together.

    I guess it shows that in the long run, the 2 parties should consider a merge so that this seat-wrangling becomes history. But no doubt some party stalwarts will then contest as independents.

    But the talks go well, I suggest that no point broadcasting it as sometimes it pays if the opponent thinks he has the strong hand.

  13. #13 by sheriff singh on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 2:26 pm

    I think it is a waste of time to talk to PKR. They think they are strong when they haven’t shown any strength at all, alot of hot air that brings no result. Why waste time talking to these unreasonable fellows I do not understand. If there is to be a three-corner fights so be it. Everyone loses except the BN.

    Even Anwar Ibrahim can’t do anything about his fellows. He just can’t control them. And as for him, he flys off so often persuing his own personal agenda that benefits himself. His sulking boys then have a field day breaking all party discipline. Tian Chua is but one example. I certainly won’t be voting for him should he stand in my constituency. This guy is absolutely nuts. Certainly not MP material.

    PKR just can’t win. It is a loser but wants to play big brother. They are spoilers and bullies. But it will be proven that they are just empty vessels and will soon die off and Anwar flies off into the sunset.

    Best DAP go it alone if these stupid fellows won’t cooperate. And let the Lord of the Universe decide.

  14. #14 by hiro on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 2:26 pm

    The voters will be very sorry if PKR and DAP cannot agree on allocation of seats. Come on guys, this is the final lap. Get your act together.

    Perhaps the most important thing to bear in mind is who is carrying the weightiest message, and what are the chances of the respective party winning that constituency.

    Even today, PKR seems to be showing cracks as a result of non-formalised merger with PRM. If that is true, and the situation unravels, some seats going to PKR could be as good as lost.

    Yet at the same time, if we are to have a viable opposition in the longo run, and PAS will not compromise on its Islamic State issue, then the practical option is the firm up Keadilan by giving them the chance to prove themselves yet again.

    I suppose perhaps there should be a shakeup on the way the seats are negotiated as well. The parties should agree to disagree on those contentious seats, and then bring them to the table for one last round of trade off.

    I also read with interest other comments and would like to give my views as follows:

    1) Perhaps it would not be wise for PKR to contest in three cornered fights in Perak as DAP has developed a strong presence there. Hasn’t it been the case where DAP has traded off state seats in Penang? Surely there can be some give and take. If the negotiations are limited to states, then I’m afraid no one will budge. The national leadership must have the strength and courage to make the difficult decision. After that, the parties must close ranks and work to support each other.

    2) Raja Petra, and other blog champions, should not contest in rural areas where their messages may not have been seen or heard with the kind of intensity compared with urban areas. They should run urban areas. Even then, never underestimate BN’s ability to secure grassroots support as opposed to bloggers who may not have the kind of machinery in place. In the end, it is about face to face contact and the sense that the ordinary folks trust you – somehow, BN does that relatively well.

  15. #15 by vehir on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 2:35 pm

    The devotees turn out at Batu Caves for Thaipusam shows clear message to BN-led government that the Indians are all out to VOTE for the OPPOSITION.

    I was at Batu Caves yesterday and today morning and personally got the true picture that Indians have bycotted this years Thaipusam.

    The Indians are prepared to VOTE for the OPPOSITION. So I and most would like to send the message across to all the OPPOSITION parties get united and have a strong based opposition.

    If this unification cannot be achieved by BA then the voters might be in the state of darkness whom to vote. They might make up their mind not to vote any party.

    So get united, get a common manifesto and sort things out after the General Election. Be fair to all parties of the BA in allocating the seats.

    GET UNITED
    GET A COMMON MANIFESTO
    INDIANS VOTE ARE CONFIRMED FOR OPPOSTION

  16. #16 by toyolbuster on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 2:42 pm

    I think its about time we consider abandoning the opposition parties and let them continue with their own struggles if they can’t even demonstrate to the ppl that they can be united to fight a common enemy. Its all about positions, power, ego and selfish gains. So, how can it be possible for us to rely on them to lead the country when they are already showing their true colors. DAP should consider working with PAS instead of PKR cos what have PKR achieved in the past elections as compared with PAS. The non-muslims are slowly accepting PAS since Hadi had gone low profile. Think about it Kit.

  17. #17 by vehir on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 2:43 pm

    The Malaysian Indians send a strong protest to PM and Sami Vellu at Batu Caves today by boycotting the Thaipusam. The crowd used to be around 1,000,000 devotees every year.

    But todays turnout shows around 100,000 devotees only would have really come to Batu Caves. Despite giving the holiday for Thaipusam for Kuala Lumpur and Putrajaya this did not attract the crowd.

  18. #18 by Itshowtime on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 2:43 pm

    Who is the biggest stumbling block to the formation of a united opposition front.Why cant they just use some commonsense.I hope its not lks.If you guys cannot be united how do you guys expect to beat BN and rule the country.Are we really fighting a losing battle.Is there no hope for us? are we doomed to suffer yet again at the hands of the BN.

  19. #19 by Itshowtime on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 2:47 pm

    Hi toyolbuster we need more ppl like you to put some commonsense into the opposition….otherwise we are doomed for another 5 years of BN rule again.This time it could be worse with Kairy who has been in the back ground coming to the front.I think we are done for.

  20. #20 by oknyua on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 2:48 pm

    What about the Sabah DAP-PKR? YB Lim, DAP has a better chance in Sabah. Why? The fragmented Kadazan-Dusun-Murut has at least 4 political parties representing the three ethnic groups, much like the majority Sarawak Ibans represented by 5 political parties. Therefore unity based on political aspiration is ruled out.

    There are 2 things that can unite the KDM. (1) Ethnic patriotism (2) Religion. Joseph Pairin Ketinggan was responsible for awaking ethnic patriotism. He was seen as the answer for marginalisation against the mostly Christian Kadazans and the rural Dusun-Murut population. But what threw Harris Salleh was item (2) Religion.

    The majority of AAB’s advisors could be in diapers when Pairin registered PBS. Sabah has a long history of Catholics and Anglican believers. In the last 15 years, the SIB is penetrating the rural community. SIB is ethnic-based. (The same thing could be said about Sarawak where the SIB “worship-pondok” could be seen in many longhouses. Just like the orang asli in Gua Musang, they don’t have gov’t grant to build churches).

    Pairin’s declining influence may have been noted by his advisors, but the church seemed to be ignored. (2 days ago they released some of Pastor Jerry’s books). The main significance of the church is its ability to garner support from the Chinese. With Musa Aman being UMNO, and UMNO has W. Malaysian root, the Chinese is forced to support the Church. Furthermore with Pairin increasingly seen to dance the UMNO tune, the KDM is likely to abandon ethnic patriotism and define themselves by religion. The church comes in again.

    My only caution is DAP and PKR are both W Malaysian in roots. Sabahan and Sarawakian don’t fancy W Malaysian at all (and I swear by the holy totem pole they still don’t). PKR has disadvantage because many of its prominent members used to share platforms with UMNO-related people. That leaves DAP alone. It is to DAP’s advantage that the (diaper) advisors overlook this.

    So, it’s still to you Theresa to attend mass more often in Kota Kinabalu making yourself more “Sabahan”. (I am already one as I have many friends in SIB). The church could be behind you. And all the Sabah Christians say… “Amen.”

  21. #21 by Taikor on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 4:18 pm

    Time has come again for us to make a stand. Gentlemen, vote wisely. May the DAP capture the state of Perak.

  22. #22 by Godfather on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 4:20 pm

    This is a most ridiculous situation when the DAP has to depend on PKR to “negotiate” with PAS so that 3-cornered fights won’t occur. What is so wrong with engaging PAS directly ?

    Kit, you gotta learn to become a statesman instead of just being a mere Opposition leader.

  23. #23 by Libra2 on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 4:23 pm

    Indians, lend me your ears.
    They tore down your temples.
    They mocked you by having their General Assembly on Deepavali.
    They accused Indian newspaper vendors for taking a day off instead of distributing the PM’s speech.
    They marginalized you for 50 long years.
    They fired tear gas at you.
    They fired into your temple.
    Now, tell me, do you want to vote for them just because of one miserly public holiday in Putrajaya where there are no Indians.

  24. #24 by awangsayang on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 4:29 pm

    Bro Sheriff Singh, DAP & PKR has to work close together to WIN. We must stay united at any cost. I’m working very hard to bring more ‘UMNO supporters to our camp. We all must move our butts now to meet our BN friends to join us. Get Moving.. move move.

  25. #25 by burn on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 4:46 pm

    last elections, many relatives and friends of mine did not vote DAP, due to working ties with PAS. maybe bcause to much scare stories regarding PAS on media by BN. i did not vote either, father-in-law past away on election day. my choice was DAP!

    now, i think partly most of them have got a clear message regarding PAS. even thought at times PAS have it own way of implementing islamic rules, of which it really scare others away. it’s best now for DAP/PKR/PAS to go around towns/kampongs to explains the real issue being together. and believe me, DAP will have more support than ever. can’t depend to much on blogging. you need to see them face to face to explain it. sleeping buddha is in kelantan, any other states have it! NONE!

  26. #26 by pastaman on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 5:12 pm

    Seems like the same old story time after time. No one else to blame but yourselves, THE OPPOSITION PARTIES..failing to grasp the desperate situation of the rakyat, and time is ticking away.

  27. #27 by yellowkingdom on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 5:23 pm

    I certainly pray and hope the Opposition DAP, PKR and PAS will work out a cohesive national platform and strategy; be it for state or parliamentary seats. We, the people of Malaysia, do not want to see a fragmented Opposition. Let every Opposition leader rise above self and party interests. The final lap is nigh, let us unite to topple Barisan and put an end to its culture of cronyism, hegemony and corruption.

  28. #28 by sani on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 5:24 pm

    YB

    Yes, it is a good suggestion that you are willing to put Ipoh Timur up for a 3 corner match up, if that is what it takes to avoid a split opposition in Perak. Syabas !

    For the rest of you guys in DAP + PKR, let face it, you are not gonna win this election. Face it. Your duty to Malaysians for the time being, is for a better represented opposition. So act like that, sound like that + work like that.

    It is time to become boys to men + lets do it for Malaysia.

  29. #29 by limkamput on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 5:42 pm

    Ipoh Timur for a 3 cornered match up and the rest of the seats in Peark for a one-to-one fight against the Barisan Nasional. Why this has to be so and how does this work and what message are we conveying to the voters? Sdr. Lim, this is not just for DAP and you to scarify Ipoh Timur. The issue is larger than that.

  30. #30 by KanNinNeh on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 6:03 pm

    Where is Anwar & Tian Chua ? Can’t you sit down with YB Lim to resolve this immediately ?

  31. #31 by js on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 6:17 pm

    DAP & PKR, Please think of the country instead of own party. Both of you should work hand in hand to kick out BN. In fact quite disappointed until to-date, both parties have yet to finalise seats talk. Hurry up!!!

  32. #32 by jus legitimum on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 6:18 pm

    YB Lim,

    You must win by a big majority in Ipoh Timur.Don’t let PKR to split your majority.

  33. #33 by SkullOfScar on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 6:32 pm

    “You must win by a big majority in Ipoh Timur.Don’t let PKR to split your majority.”

    Just make sure vote out BN thats for sure. DAP or PKR must join forces to bring back Malaysia Wealth, Harmony & Democracy. For all Malaysian! Dont fight with each other. Joining forces can bring them down. Lets hope for this unity well.

  34. #34 by Fort on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 6:40 pm

    It is ridiculous!Absurd and laughable! It never ever cross my mind the seats allocation is like that one! They want to contest in Ipoh Timur!? I assume that all seats won by whoever should continue to keep them. Anyway, there are only a hand full won by the oppositions.

    Can PAS also asks for the same seat Anwar’s wife is occupying? How ridiculous!

    Kit, if PKR is that difficult! There will be more troubles all the way cooperating with them!

    Must never allow Ipoh Timur to end up 3 corners fight. How dare they even think of it! To me, they must be out of their minds. It is not reasonable! Whoever conceived that move is barbaric.

    Now, I can see, how difficult it is for you, Kit.

    I am ready to vote DAP and PKR but not PAS. If I have to choose between BN or PAS. I will choose the third option to spoil the vote! Let them know if they want to set up Islamic state or compete to be more and more Islamised, count me out!

  35. #35 by Fort on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 6:46 pm

    I guess that they ask for too much so that they can get more at the end of the negotiation!

    Is that the art of negotiation?

    It is like a buyer always complain is too expensive. After that he boast that how cheap he got to his friends.

  36. #36 by alaneth on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 6:50 pm

    My PARLIMENTARY SEAT # P160 JOHOR BAHRU (91,108)
    Melayu: 45,305 Cina: 39,864 India: 4,510 Lain: 715
    1. Shahrir Ab Samad (BN)
    2. Atan Ahmad (Pas)

    DAP – why did you abondon this seat to PAS????

    FYI this seat won the biggest majority for BN in Malaysia. Although it is happy for me to see the fanatical islamic party lose their deposit money, I want DAP to contest this seat.

    I went to the polls last election to my great disappointment that DAP is not there!!! Don’t bother about 3-corner fights! Contest this seat – you know the Chinese are there for you. Let PAS & UMNO split their votes & lose out while you take on JB.

    Your non-presence in JB Parliment Seat ponders me….. are you secretly having something on with PAS ???

  37. #37 by alaneth on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 6:55 pm

    Hi Fort,

    You have the same idea as me to spoil the vote if PAS & BN is there.

    A high spoilt votecount means that the people there hates the 2 contesting parties.

    Again DAP should NOT discuss with PKR on seat allocation and then allow PKR to split their seats with PAS.

    Indirectly like this you are working with PAS!

    If you come to JB Parlimentary seat & let it be 3-corner fight, the Malay votes will be split & you will for sure not lose your deposit money as I know the Chinese in JB will support you.

  38. #38 by observer on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 7:01 pm

    In my opinion , Uncle Kit and your colleagues should sit down together with your PKR counterparts Anwar and company and thrash out a best path. Then announce to the ppl, and let the ppl to give a good fight to the corrupt UMNO led BN.

  39. #39 by Chong Zhemin on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 7:26 pm

    Most disappointing Uncle Kit,

    When I first read this newspaper extract from Keadilan website that their leaders are targeting Ipoh Timur, Ipoh Barat and Batu Gajah, I never took it seriously.

    http://cn.keadilanrakyat.org/index.php/content/view/1331/1/

    Anyways, seem that there is some truth in the report. If Ipoh Timur is the seat that leads to the stalemate, instead of putting up a three corner fight, allow me to give another suggestion.

    Everyone knows that, there are 8000 new registered voters and the winning margin might be slashed due to this. A three corner fight will DEFINITELY make this seat fall to BN. Instead of putting up a three corner fight, why not let an independent candidate contest. And make sure this candidate WILL NOT join PKR or DAP after he/she is elected. Both DAP and PKR will campaign for the independent candidate.

    mendela suggested that raja petra contest as an independent candidate. I think he will be a good one. IF Li Ao from Taiwan could run the legislative election as a non-partisan candidate and subsequently elected, there is no excuse that we Malaysians cant do it!

    Lastly, please read this article from Raja Petra:

    Yes, let us force the opposition to unite. And if they don’t then let us boycott the opposition. Let us show them we mean business. As Lim Kit Siang said, “The people are the boss.” So let us show them that we really are the boss by telling them what we want and by rejecting them if they refuse to listen to the boss. We want 80 opposition members in Parliament. And we will get it even if we have to vote against the opposition or by not coming out to vote just to teach the opposition a lesson and to show them that if we can’t have it our way then we do not want it any way.

    The opposition is arrogant. The opposition has a large ego. They think we need them so they can do what they like. It is time they learned that we do not need them but it is they who need us. Malaysia Today will soon launch a campaign called ONE OPPOSITION OR NO OPPOSITION.

    yes it’s ONE OPPOSITION OR NO OPPOSITION, I am against any three corner fight, even ONLY in Ipoh Timur!

  40. #40 by Chong Zhemin on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 7:29 pm

    sorry, here’s the link for the article in Malaysia Today

    http://www.malaysia-today.net/2008/content/view/1000/40/

  41. #41 by sec on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 7:50 pm

    YB Lim;
    In Penang put up a woman candidate to fight against Koh Su koon
    at the same time the candidate is able to gather Indian voters- do you know what I meant.

  42. #42 by LittleBird on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 8:28 pm

    Sometimes it makes me wonder if PKR is just UMNO in disguise. For a party less then 10 years I think they should be more generous to DAP and educate their own malay base supporters about multi racial and religious need for malaysia politics. Otherwise, it is going to end up another BN.

  43. #43 by Jong on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 9:14 pm

    hflee, agree with you, well said!

    Btw who’s this PKR National VP, ..Tian Chua? For its VP to publicly make surch uncalled for statement is a show of unfriendliness and defiance. It has no doubt put the two parties DAP & PKR in an embarrassing situation. He needs ticking off.

  44. #44 by Jong on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 9:34 pm

    I hope this DAP-PKR talks on electoral agreement will come to an amicable settlement and a win-win situation for both parties concerned.

    Ipoh Timur and Ipoh Barat are DAP seats and must remain so. YB Lim Kit Siang’s support in Timur is fantastic. I know he will win hands down next GE, ..provided EC Rashid come clean!

    PKR is inactive and hardly known in Ipoh. For its National VP to make public its intention to contest Ipoh Timur is a joke!

  45. #45 by waterfrontcoolie on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 10:04 pm

    If for self interests DAP_PKR cannot find a solution to combine their resources, the next time around, I will throw rotten eggs at them when they come to where I vote!!

  46. #46 by Godson on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 10:08 pm

    Please, please, please unite together and kick those BN out for once.

    Pray that this time the oppositions make it.

    I want to see the BN pack up and go.

  47. #47 by Jong on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 10:14 pm

    waterfrontcoolie, I might join you! :D

  48. #48 by Jong on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 10:16 pm

  49. #49 by budak on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 10:29 pm

    Uncle Kit, let them come-in to have 3-corner fight…
    my fellow friend’s and I will vote are for you… :-)
    we’re not like Penangites whose fail you time over time…

    PKR can name any candidate for Ipoh Timur and Barat…
    we’ll ensure you “huet pun mo kwai”… :-)

  50. #50 by techie on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 10:34 pm

    Chew Mei Fun: Another May 13 if Chinese representation in BN is insufficient
    Tuesday, January 22, 2008 · 5 Comments

    One of the most popular MCA parliamentarians, Ms Chew Mei Fun of Petaling Jaya Utara has made a implicit warning to her Chinese voters on Sunday: ” if there is no sufficient Chinese representation in the Barisan Nasional, it is not a good thing, the Chinese community cannot afford another May 13 incident.“

    Mei Fun is a thug with thug tactics. She thinks that we’re all idiots who can easily be intimidated by such remarks. Go fly kite!

    Voted DAP in Bandar Kuching the previous elections and I’m not changing my vote. :)

  51. #51 by ENDANGERED HORNBILL on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 10:38 pm

    YB, the BEST and perhaps, ONLY chance for the Opposition to score a MAJOR upset is for the Opposition to go ONE_ON_ONE with BN.

    This is the best chance in 50 years to unseat BN. BN is at historic lows in popular support.

    YB, just pick up the phone & sit down with Anwar to iron out some of these preliminaries; then let the rest work on micr-details once the macros have been agreed upon.

    Best of luck to PKR/DAP. Viva Opposition 2008!

    Oops! Viva PKR/DAP as the new government 2008!

  52. #52 by js on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 10:41 pm

    i believe BN will be laughing if the seats talk not successful and some have to be ended up with 3 corner fight. I really in doubt how can these 2 parties work together??? People will lose confident in these 2 parties and will vote for BN.

  53. #53 by sheriff singh on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 10:51 pm

    I recommend that everyone boycott PKR. We would like to have a UNITED opposition but if there are some who throw tantrums all the time, then how do you have unity?

    Lets face it.

    THERE ARE just too MANY, MANY LITTLE NAPOLEONS IN PKR !!!!

    Thats why the party just cannot steady itself and continues to rock all the time. Too many of their members think too highly of themselves when they are all still politically immature.

    WHAT HAS PKR ACHIEVED OVER THE PAST 10 YEARS?

    What has it sole MP done in and outside Parliament? I don’t know what she stands for, what the party’s platform is. Do you? They are a mumbo-jumbo party thats makes alot of hot air, thats all.

    YET IT WISHES TO BLACKMAIL AND THREATEN THE DAP’S CHANCES BY HAVING THREE CORNER FIGHTS!!!!

    They want to field a third candidate if DAP doesn’t give in !!!

    THE PROBLEM WITH PKR IS IT IS A PARTY WITHOUT DISCIPLINE BUT ALOT OF MUMBO-JUMBO !!!!

    Yes, too many LITTLE NAPOLEONS IN PKR with their leadership hapless AND WEAK, unable to crack their whip if they ever had one. Thats why this party is weak and fumbles along. They bully and threaten but WHAT REALLY DO THEY STAND FOR??

    The DAP should just go it alone and to hell with PKR – PARTI KENA ROGOL.

  54. #54 by Itshowtime on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 10:52 pm

    Hi.. Libra2 ..stop harping on religious issues.Thats instigation and dont say you have not been warned.Talk about how to make Indians economically better then what they are now.Thats what the Indians what to know.

  55. #55 by necromancer4good on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 10:54 pm

    Ya, PKR can eat my dust. Vote for DAP. Viva DAP

  56. #56 by gofortruth on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 11:01 pm

    Until we see a solid merge into a single Barisan Alternative from the oppositions I am afraid Malaysians will not see the day of light for a long time to come yet unless BN has a completely change of heart, then for this to happen you would need to watch for a blue moon.

    It is disheartening to find opposition parties fighting over seats and the public are left as secondary consideration. It will paint a negative picture to the general electorates across the country (don’t forget the gomen has the public media they will tear you to shreds!!!)

    Please resolve your issues sacrificially, logically & admicably ASAP!!!!!

  57. #57 by babique on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 11:19 pm

    WTF are the 2 leaders still squabbling at the last hour???
    For goodness sake, if you 2 cannot decide, just use a dice.

  58. #58 by k1980 on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 11:21 pm

  59. #59 by sheriff singh on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 11:32 pm

    A friend e-mailed me this just a short while ago with this comment:

    “With “friends” like PKR who wants to stab DAP in the back by having a three corner fight in Ipoh Timor, who needs enemies? Recommend that DAP reciprocate elsewhere. Two can play the game.”

    He hears that the elections will be held AFTER Pak Lah returns from Senegal as he don’t want to go there like a wounded dog. So he waits a bit longer. His dates? April 5-6 or 12-13.

  60. #60 by alaneth on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 11:33 pm

    PKR is the underdog.
    If PKR cannot make way for its senior ‘si-fu’ DAP, and if their attitude is like that, the rakyat will unite against any other parties & will universally only vote DAP.

    Look at the Bukit Bintang problem last election, the 4-corner fight almost made DAP lose this seat.

  61. #61 by Jong on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 12:03 am

    PKR accuses DAP of being a chauvinistic party. I disagree, I think it takes two to tango!

    I truly hope Leaders in DAP and PKR urgently see the need for ‘give and take’ that is lacking in this final lap of negotiation and not to be affected by some selfish senior members among them. When everybody talks, who is listening?

    They must be practical, stay focused, plan stategies and the rest must tow the line like it or not.

  62. #62 by k1980 on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 12:10 am

    Since Tian Chua wants to be a hero, let him contest in Kepala Batas against the Sleeping Mullah. He will lose not only his deposit, but also his underpants and his anal virginity

  63. #63 by Jong on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 12:14 am

    k1980,
    Your obscene remark is uncalled for! How you managed to escape the moderator surprises me. Yes, Tian Chua is a nut alright. I think he is a political liability too.

  64. #64 by mendela on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 12:21 am

    Kit is the most effective opposition member of Parliament for all these years (more than 30 years?). We must not let Kit to fall.

    Tell me, among all opposition leaders, who can debate better than Kit? Who work harder than Kit? Who dare to stand up againt all the UMO dogs days in and days out at Parliament without any fear?

    PKR must not back stab Kit!

    With all the phamtom votes in Ipoh Timur and coupled with all the votes buying by you know who, a three-way fight means Kit could be in danger!

  65. #65 by mendela on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 12:24 am

    Silly Bernama claims that more than 1 Million Indians attended the Thaipusam at Batu Caves.

    Stupid idiot mouthpiece of UMO!

    Plain silly!

  66. #66 by HJ Angus on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 12:53 am

    In any joint effort between different groups, there is always a question of compromise and concession.

    Both parties must have proper rules for discussion and discipline from the members. We know in the past the BN were able to realign MPs in Sabah after the elections. It is possible this can happen if supposing they lose Penang by a few seats.

    Therefore I suggest that all DAP/PKR candidates be asked to sign an undated letter of resignation so that if they decide to jump ship, they cannot betray the electorate. But I am not sure if such a letter is legally binding.

    To put seat allocation on a reasonable basis for discussion, I suggest the following:

    1.The party that contested the seat in the previous election retains the seat unless the margin of loss was greater than say 20%.
    2.Allow state leaders to propose candidates for the seats and give them a week to resolve the seats allocation .
    3.If the final state allocation cannot be settled, only the contentious seats should be discussed at the national level.
    4.If the national leadership cannot work things out, then it appears that the opposition cannot really forge a strong alternative to the BN machinery.

    If the DAP and PKR cannot cooperate even before the elections are called, they will only confirm the snide remarks of the BN leaders.

    How many elections are we going to have before you guys come to your senses?

  67. #67 by Jong on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 12:56 am

    If you had noticed, the tv newsclips were mere closeups. The temple area was not crowded or packed with devotees. Even the steps leading up to the caves were easily accessible, not crowded as in previous years when climbing up, one could hardly breathe so to speak.

    Bernama is BN/UMNO’s mouthpiece, what else. It’s face-saving. Today I am so proud of our Indian Hindus. They have shown our Pak Kadok PM that a public holiday does not solve decades of marginalisation. There must be ‘political will’ to tackle Indian problems which MIC failed to deliver the past 5 decades of BN/UMNO rule!

    Time for change, vote DAP!

  68. #68 by mycroft on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 1:01 am

    I hope this shows people not to have so much faith in other opposition parties. So PKR wants to contest seats that are traditionally the DAP’s to contest. PKR, a party with absolutely no track record, no seats (except one that was won after god knows how many recounts).. PKR – a party that is made up of UMNO rejects and a bunch of political losers and head-in-the-sky social activists. PKR a party with no agenda except to be a mouthpiece of Anwar Ibrahim, that famous Johnny-Come-Lately. Oh yeah, before any lurking Anwarites start attacking me, what was Anwar doing back when Salleh Abbas was sacked or when Ops Lallang happened? PKR is lucky that people still give them the time of the day. They are a party that is supported by a fringe elitist crowd. The so-called intellectuals who are too snobbish for a working class party like the DAP. They have no history, nothing to back them up, whereas the DAP has had 40 years. And THEY want to play the big dog? The only reason why I’d ever vote for a PKR candidate is if there is no DAP in my constituency and the opposition needs the vote. But I am a DAP supporter first and foremost. And I hope that if they really insist on creating three cornered fights, then the opposition vote goes to the DAP. I have no sympathy for them. I have no support for them. PKR can be dissolved tomorrow for all I care. They are a bunch of crooks and opportunists, and this little act by them is just proof of it.

  69. #69 by mycroft on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 1:02 am

    Oh before I forget, weren’t they also responsible for the BN winning Taiping in the last election, as they also split the vote in that seat?

  70. #70 by BlackEye on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 1:06 am

    No, vote against BN.

  71. #71 by BlackEye on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 1:07 am

    “Time for change, vote DAP!”

    No. Vote against BN.

  72. #72 by mycroft on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 1:12 am

    I’d rather vote for the DAP first than just vote against the BN blindly. There is a world of difference between the two things although the outcome will be the same. Wonder if anyone can see what it is.

  73. #73 by Samson on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 1:53 am

    I think DAP has a good political track record in Perak so PKR should let DAP take on BN challenge in Perak. I am sure there are other states/areas where PKR can contest and do well and avoid the 3-corner fight. Similarly in the areas/states where PAS has been successful, it would be unwised to field DAP/PKR candidate in that areas/states. Opposition parties must rely on each other strength and cooperate to kick BN out this coming GE.

    My prayer and wish is for DAP to win big in Perak and Penang.

    Dear all, we should reject BN and vote for opposition parties, EVEN PAS. PAS is not the enemy but BN is. BN has betrayed the rakyat. They have raped our constitution rights. They have meddled with our judiciary systems. They have SECRETLY ISLAMISED Malaysia to the disadvantage of the minority non-muslims. They have taken the law into their own hands. It is the CRASH BOOM BANG system of BN goverment. We have suffered long enough.

    Do not be afraid of PAS. At least we know who they are and what they are fighting for. It is the BN that we should be careful. Claiming to be a friend but stabbing your back with their keris and using their own law to justify their actions.

    Time for change. Time for opposition to rise up. Strength, honor, power and justice to DAP.

  74. #74 by ckloh on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 1:55 am

    I think the PKR National Vice President is Dr. Lee Boon Chye, not Tian Chua.

    Dr. Lee wanted to contest Ipoh Timur last election too, but last minute directed by Anwar to give way and contested in Gopeng, where he lose with big majority around 14000 plus to Ting Chew Peh.

    As a Perak State Chairman, Dr. Lee would take care of the Perak Keadilan members interest by trying to get some hot seats like some of the 9 state seats under Ipoh Timur, Ipoh Barat and Batu Gajah and also Parliament seats like Taiping and Teluk Intan. Teluk Intan is a difficult one, as last election result Dap gets 8000 plus and Keadilan gets 6000 plus, and it is a split vote, leads to BN win, a seat that formerly was a strong seat by DAP.

    Keadilan Perak is trying to win some battle with DAP to get some hot seats where all the hot seats are currently with DAP, and rightly so, as DAP has historically won the seats in previous election. And of course, Lim said of allowing Ipoh Timur to be 3 cornered fight, is not his true attention, just a polite wake up call, message to Dr. Lee that united is the key of success.

    But the problem is Dr. Lee aware that if he don’t try to win some battle with DAP, Keadilan has no chance of success in Perak except Sungai Siput. Seats like Kampar, Tanjung Malim, Gopeng to be contested by DAP are all previously won by more than 10000 majority by BN.

    What I hope is PKR Keadilan, please don’t try to win a battle and lose a war. If they insists to play some sandiwara like requesting to contest in Ipoh Timur, to improve their negotiation on other seats, they might get additional 1 or 2 seats, but I really believe, they will lose the war.

    Still alot of fence sitters that are observing, and they are not impress of the disunity of the opposition. This must be settled asap.

    And also as suggested by some, why not DAP liase with PAS, not PKR. This is just not possible. Firstly, PAS and Keadilan is political partner and they are in good term, no problem negotiating seats. PKR and PAS are the main partners in BA, and they know they can’t split.

    Secondly, if DAP have any links with PAS they will lose some Chinese votes definitely. Myself, have tried hard to campaign for PAS with my friends saying they are more liberal, saying facts like sleeping Buddha in Kelantan, pork selling in Kelantan and also temple building.

    My friends just replied to me, the fact is Magnum, Pan Malaysia and Sports Toto is banned to Kelantan. A vote to PAS means a vote against Magnum, Pan Malaysia and Sports Toto. They understand about how corrupt BN is, but to vote against their favourite past time, it is just not possible.

    I would say, if DAP and PAS working together directly, I would expect at least 50 percent of the current Chinese vote from DAP will be gone to BN, at least they allow gambling and Gentlng. Chinese are selfish, I have to admit it. DAP has lose big before because of PAS, and this is one of the main reason. To mention, Chinese is scared of PAS Islamic policy, is just a nice way of putting it. Chinese are more concerned on their personal interest, and of course it includes gambling and alcohol.

    With all the difference, it is hard to form a united front to challenge the corrupted UMNO.

    But pleae prove me wrong, alot of Malaysian will be grateful of this.

  75. #75 by Jeffrey on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 1:57 am

    YB Kit knows the inside story, we don’t.

    From the outside, it is hard to understand PKR & DAP’s present difficulty to come to an electoral agreement/pact to avoid 3 cornered fights if it is reasonably assumed that between PKR & DAP there is, in prior existence, a pre-agreed & defined criteria of who’s to field candidates to avoid 3 cornered fights. Such a pre-agreed defined criteria to take BN on, as main objective, will provide, for examples:

    · If in 2004, DAP won three parliament seats (Ipoh Timur, Ipoh Barat and Batu Gajah) and seven state seats (Sitiawan, Pantai Remis, Pasir Bedamar, Menglembu, Pasir Pinji, Jelapang and Keranji), then DAP, based on last record, should be allowed to field its candidates for these seats without interference from PKR/PAS since there’s a track record to vouch for prospects of future success ;

    · Where as Alaneth said, PAS has proven it lost in JB Parliamentary seat by wide margin, and the DAP stands the next good chance, then DAP should be given the exclusive slot to context in coming election; the converse should apply where DAP lost in last election, it should offer the others in Opposition a chance.

    . In cases of 2004 3 cornered fights, the party with a 1st runner up based on track record should now be given exclusive opportunity to contest the BN in straight fight.

    · As far as new constituencies, likewise there ought to be a criteria (maybe based on racial composition) of deciding which Opposition Party stands the better chance in a one-one fight against BN.

    . Or maybe for bending backwards to help DAP in its foray into Penang the PKR expects some quid pro quo flexibility from the above guidelines, we really don’t know. (Personally I am not that optimistic about DAP’s prospects for capture of sufficient state seats in Penang to form govt and don’t relish the idea of Kit using Ipoh Timur parliamentary seat (that he won & expected to serve) as bargaining chip).

    Anyway, the pre-agreed defined criteria stated above is just a hypothetical one, I’m sure you guys in the Opposition could come out with a better & more comprehensive one.

    The point is if there were no such pre-agreed defined criteria existing between Opposition Parties, then I don’t know what to say about Opposition Parties in terms of their seriousness of cooperation and preparedness to take on BN.

    If there were such pre-agreed defined criteria as guidelines, how could, at this late stage, PKR & DAP could not agree in Perak, Negeri Sembilan & so on ? – unless one of these is reneging on what has been agreed.

    And the question is who. Ultimately it is YB Kit & DSAR, who as the two ultimate defacto leaders of DAP & PKR respectively could enforce decisions on such matters down the line.

    The one who reneges should not be entertained – or trusted by the other….and the other who is innocent should then proceed to go for 3 cornered fights in such circumstances.

    I don’t know who reneges but I am inclined to associate with comments made by sheriff singh, Fort Alaneth & the rest above that, if it needs be, DAP go for 3 cornered fights.

    Perhaps because I am more bias in favour of the Kit as against PKR’s defacto leader. I say “bias” because I concede that I have few rational reasons to back up such an inclination.

    A prominent blogger, RPK I think, has accused DAP/Kit to be “Trojan horse” if they are non-cooperating. (I assume here we all roughly know what a Trojan Horse implies, depicted in Hollywood buster, Troy, starring Brad Pitt).

    I think the DAP/Kit’s record of defending Malaysian rights in last 20 over years speaks for their own defense.

    The other has, in comparison, no such long-standing record of consistent comitment and dedication.

    Who, may I ask, got the pass-port for him; who acquiesced with his release from prison; and who offered to assist the present administration to resolve the problem with Singapore over the crooked bridge/sand issue; who would be an ideal counterweight against intra-political rivals of present incumbent if the need really arises; who behind the scenes gives moral support to release of various Linkas concessionaire agreements ostensibly in breach of OSA and also behind the scenes in respect of various street demonstrations from Bersih to Hindraf and yet not arrested under ISA where Hindraf’s leaders are?

    Again I want to make clear I am not stating any fact here. But if I have to speculate wildly who would garner more suspicions of likely being a Trojan horse or at least a potential one, no prize would be given for the correct guess of what my ‘bias’ speculation will be.

  76. #76 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 2:24 am

    There may be moles working from both sides secretly for BN, hoping to sabotage negotiations.

  77. #77 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 2:30 am

    “It is the CRASH BOOM BANG system of BN goverment. ”

    Who can blame if some us like the “bang” better than the “crash” or the “boom”.

  78. #78 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 2:47 am

    Everything seems to hang on the balance in the negotiations between the leadership of both parties, DAP and PKR. Individuals must sacrifice their personal self interest for that of the party. This is easier said than done.

    Meanwhile, no one from either party should be making statements to the media as to the progress or lack of it of the negotiations – or on their blogs for the obvious reason that BN will capitalize on the differences.

  79. #79 by burn on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 5:32 am

    YB, do whatever you think is right! you still have my 101% support! you’ve been in this business for a long time. being an old timer, i have much respect for you and DAP representatives, for daring to voice out in parliment.
    after seeing some comments on certain blogs, on what others have said could be true. PKR is still new in the market. and to take over DAP strong area, is a big mistakes!

  80. #80 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 5:57 am

    We can change the way we contest the elections. We can focus on the issues closest to the voters etc. We can work for “change we can believe in” but we cannot change the fact that we need the Malay votes to win:

    “There are hardly any Chinese majority constituencies. There are hardly any Indian majority constituencies. But there are many Malay majority constituencies where the Malay voters exceed 90% of the voting population. Almost all the Chinese and Indian candidates win with the help of the Malay voters. So the Malay vote is very important. You can form a government, although with a mere simple majority, just on Malay votes alone. But you can’t form a government, or even win a seat, with just Chinese and Indian votes alone. ” Kuppusamy

    http://www.malaysia-today.net/2008/content/view/1308/46/

  81. #81 by kanthanboy on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 6:02 am

    “Btw who’s this PKR National VP…” Jong

    Malaysiakini reported that the PKR National VP is Dr. Lee Boon Chye, Perak PKR state chief. When contacted by Malaysiakini for a response, Lee neither confirmed nor denied that PKR had publicly staked claim onto the Ipoh Timur seat.

    If there is a three corner fight in Ipoh Timur involving DAP, PKR and BN. I am 100% sure that the chances for PKR to win are ZERO. Any one disagrees with my assessment?

  82. #82 by Colonel on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 6:30 am

    I thought the Malay votes would then be split in favor of the opposition?

  83. #83 by Colonel on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 6:36 am

    For those who feel that DAP can and should go it alone, read undergrad2’s posting above. This opportunity will never come around again for the next 50 years. Think about it.

  84. #84 by sotong on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 7:09 am

    All Opposition leaders must put politics aside in the best interest of the country to win the election and form government and stop the rot………reconcile and sort out any disagreement later.

    If you are serious of going into the election battle……you go in to win – reducing BN majority is not good enough.

  85. #85 by BlackEye on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 7:25 am

    Sotong,

    What the heck are you talking about??

  86. #86 by sotong on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 7:40 am

    BN’s decades of divide and rule with politics of race and religion are most effective in dividing the people but at the same time most damaging to a multi racial and religious country.

  87. #87 by Bigjoe on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 7:59 am

    Those Chinese in PKR who says DAP is chauvinistic are pots calling the kettle black. If they themselves are not chauvinistic, they should be contesting in Malay seats to prove their point that DAP defensive posture all this while makes no sense.

    I don’t disagree that DAP can do more to attrack Malay votes which is easier than attracting bumi members and candidates to fight under its flags.

    If PKR want to DAP to give up its Chinese seats then the Chinese PKR leaders should convince their bumi leaders to run under DAP flags.

  88. #88 by Bigjoe on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 8:04 am

    One other thing and this is something Sdr. Lim knows. Tan Siew Sin had the same problem with Chinese leaders. Chinese leaders warlording is what led to the weakening of MCA leadership under Tan Siew Sin and allowed UMNO right-wingers to take advantage of it and put the entire Chinese community where it is today.

    Tell the PKR Chinese to go fly kites.

  89. #89 by ctm999 on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 8:38 am

    After reading the above comments, this is what I agree to avoid 3 corner fights:
    1) Let the incumbents contest in their old seats

    2) If certain constituencies buy the DAP manifesto, DAP should contest, if they buy PKR, PKR should contest.

    3) For mix seats, DAP and PKR should draw lots to decide who should contest (nobody need to know, nobody would know). Whichever party get the right to contest that seat the other party must close rank and support the candidate unreservedly. For seats that neither party have confidence of winning, give it to PAS.

    I think this way all the seats can be allocated in one or two days. No need wait until end of the month. The opposition should really unite and trounce BN in the coming election. Maybe all the non-BN parties can merge (not another coalition but really merge) into a large party. Like in the USA you are either Republican or Democrat.

  90. #90 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 8:43 am

    So it is politics of race all over again!

    By indulging in the politics of race, we are no better than those BN gooks. In fact we’re saying to them that there is no formula better than theirs.

    BN does not need to do anything but watch the electoral alliance between DAP and PKR disintegrate as votes are lost before elections even begin.

  91. #91 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 8:49 am

    “unite and trounce BN in the coming election. Maybe all the non-BN parties can merge (not another coalition but really merge) into a large party. Like in the USA you are either Republican or Democrat.”

    It is a bit too late for that, isn’t it not?

    A 2-party system like that in the U.K. and the U.S. does not appear workable given the race relations in this country among others. In fact, in the U.S. today voters would like to see a third and independent party. Many are neither Democrats nor Republicans and would not vote unless there are independents.

  92. #92 by ctm999 on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 8:57 am

    It is sad to say that after 50 years of divide and rule by BN the mindsets of most Malaysians are also fixed along those lines. For now we need to flow with the current. After being elected and denying BN 2/3rd majority only then can those in anti-BN groups make constitution amendments and gradually change the mindset and thinking of people away from racial and religious lines to create a truly Bangsa Malaysia. A pre-1511 mindset where everyone live in peace with each other.

  93. #93 by Jong on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 9:50 am

    kanthanboy,
    Thanx for the confirmation. I’m from Ipoh Timur and I tell you, I have not met this Dr Lee or heard of him. Ask anyone around Ipoh and I am sure none have really heard of him. Anyone knows where PKR Office is? What about their contact numbers?

    I was once given their ‘office’ tel once to find out about a ceramah by DSAI who was supposed to be in town. My calls were never picked and when I finally got through, the person at the other end was as blur as anything, and I was given to understand the ceramah was “by invitation” only! What a joke!

    At least I know how to get in touch with DAP Perak leaders, I’ve their contact numbers and I know where they are. So tell me, how is Dr Lee going to stand in Ipoh Timur or anywhere in Ipoh?

  94. #94 by Bigjoe on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 10:03 am

    Frankly, PKR Sabah is better off getting Anwar to turn up the heat on Badawi’s Islamic credential with Lingam Tape RCI rather than fight with DAP.

    Anwar should label the Lingam Tape RCI as unIslamic to lie and cheat – associate it with Badawi’s brand of Islam Hadhari.

    Then he can point to Chua Soi Lek scandal and qoute Chua Soi Lek saying adultery is OK under Islam Hadhari. Its negative campaigning.

    Anwar really can learn a thing or two from Bill Clinton.

  95. #95 by Bigjoe on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 10:06 am

    Perhaps DAP can give up some seats if Anwar can outline a concrete plan to attack Badawi’s Islamic credential, then contest in Indian seats?

  96. #96 by Jong on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 10:19 am

    For DAP and PKR to merge is a great idea and I am all for it but they must selflessly work towards an amicable solution. Both parties must practical and realise that they need each other for Malay and non-Malay votes.

    The chieftians on the negotiation table need to be focused and see the big picture. Stop bickering and handle issues like true leaders! I know it’s easier said than done but they have to get down to it in quick time, GE is weeks away.

    I agree with undergrad2 when he said, “There may be moles working from both sides secretly for BN, hoping to sabotage negotiations.” – true and it’s possible so utmost care must be given and stop minions from making unnecessary press statements!

  97. #97 by vehir on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 10:57 am

    The opposition parties must be strongly united. If each of them fighting fand grabbing for save seats I consider that there is no cooperation and compromise within the opposition.

    If this matter continues to lead, the voters who have made up their mind to vote the opposition might just cross the BN to give their support for another 2/3 majority. Then the opposition can’t come up and the rakyat will never trust them for the next 50 years.

    I also wish to say that in the midst of getting the seats sorted out, I hope there might not be seats not contested by the opposition thus giving BN the victory to roll over without a contest.

    So I urge the opposition leaders to get together and collectively agree to terms and conditions for a big majority to overthrow the BN-led government.

  98. #98 by shiver on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 11:12 am

    Dear Alaneth,

    you voting in JB rite? first time voter? shahrir samad is a well known politician, even opposition supporters know him. if DAP was to run, they would as well give the deposit money to the EC.
    look, even if PAS was to run against BN, dont spoil your vote. you think that if PAS was to win JB, they can change the govt? JB will be a hudud islamic state? come on mate, nothing of that sort will happen, what you can do is to vote PAS, as then YOU have an opposition MP in parliament and to object to BN’s blatant amendment in the constitution!

    PAS has no financial capacity to run EVERY Parliament seat in the country let alone enough strong candidates. Look at the facts, with the current situation, i rather you give your vote to the opposition then come and spoil your vote. then what for? who do you help? you protest yes, but at the end you protest yourself and no one even will know, or rather care.

    Hey, guess what, if we can vote BN out this time and bring in the opposition, we can vote them out in the next 4-5 years. thats true democracy.

    think! use your head and think logically. Do not spoil your vote, dont cut your nose to spite your face.

    50 years la mate. how long more can we take? and as someone said, this is the best chance for the opposition, we may never get this chance again even in the next 50 years.

  99. #99 by jus legitimum on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 11:29 am

    Think of it.What is PKR compared to DAP? DAP has become a household name for at least four decades.PKR never shows an iota of respect towards DAP and its supremo YB LKS by eyeing Ipoh TImur.

  100. #100 by Saint on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 12:26 pm

    PAS at least has a state. What has PKR? Only Anwar – and one seat.

    If PKR goes into a fight with DAP on a three corner fight; then the Indians will have to boycott PKR in all seats.

    We do not want greedy and uncompromising (ex UMNO) people from day one.

    Right now the Indians are against UMNO and MIC and extending that to ex-UNMO will not take long.

  101. #101 by azam on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 1:16 pm

    Dearest Fort and Alaneth
    I still do not understand why you cannot accept PAS as the partner. I’m quite sure that PAS understand your struggle for Malaysian and yet they never against it. At least tey never ask you to change your mission and your party’s constitution.
    But some people keep on asking PAS to change this and that which are beyond their capability.
    You can see how much they changed since the past few years. You yourselves cannot change in a day. How you expect the other to do so.
    Still you judge PAS based on main stream media. Why don’t you talk to Kelantan Chinese or Indian or even Thai? Or you yourselves have a visit to Kelantan. Our Great Father LKS has publish in this blog how Kelantan Chinese feel under current government. May be you realised that no single chinese killed in Kelantan on 13th May. They very safe under the protection of PAS Ketua Kampung that time.
    PAS is very transparent. I don’t know any of the goverment in the world make public dialog before table the state’s enacment. PAS make it in Kelantan.
    I think Great people like LKS should think seriously to work with PAS. May be you felt pain after loosing in 1999. But that is part of the struggle for the country. If you success, you will be remember forever as a stateman. And you are true leader of unity.
    If you can not work with PAS this time, may be they will go beyond the Malay majority seat next election.

  102. #102 by Loh on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 1:27 pm

    The Chinese and Indian candidates in PKR want to have a chance at the next GE. Without them joining the election, PKR would look like a third Malay party after UMNO and PAS. But PKR should not demand for seats that are currently held by DAP. PKR should file their non-Malay candidates against the BN non-UMNO candidates. Surely there are sufficient seats for PKR and PAS to share against UMNO candidates.

  103. #103 by pkrian on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 2:37 pm

    i believe that the majority are upset of what is going on, and everyone would like to see a 1 on 1 fight against BN. However, if you have knowledged of what the PKR are doing during the past few months in kinta valley especially then you would not wonder why the PKR should not be given even a seat.

    they have appointed one of their youth “leader” to so-called adpot IPOH BARAT (DAP incumbent) and alleging that the people of Ipoh hardly see their MP, that’s why they came in. How can they do like that on a party which suppose to be a frinedly party to them?

    flyers were being distributed by PKR in Ipoh Timur and Ipoh Barat indicating to vote PKR over DAP, though they never name it. The PKR flyers said they have the chance to become Government, unlike some party which always be an opposition. PKR also said even if they remain opposition, they will be “good opposition party”, on the other hand DAP will “only forever be opposition”. There is total no respect from PKR over DAP! And this is being distributed in DAP-incumbent-seats!

    Co-operation is a mutual respect, and not keeping hammering on others. i respect the DAP leader, especially the Perak one, despite PKR’s attack, they did not react over the PKR’s act (which will definately make the situation worse).

    Bravo, DAP Perak!

  104. #104 by pkrian on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 2:41 pm

    And the PKR always claimed they can become Government… What? They might have forgotten they have only ONE MP and ONE SA throughout the whole Malaysia! The Chinese PKR leader might have forgotten they have lost deposit in 2 of the 3 state seats they fought in perak, and came third with 1/8 votes in the 3 corner fight in the remaing seat?

  105. #105 by boh-liao on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 3:07 pm

    Wait n see if this is true: 2008 GE came and was over – and BN won again by more than 2/3 majority, while the oppositions lost again fighting each other – oppositions then went back to the Internet for more cyber-self-shiok, complain, complain, complain – that’s all they can do for another 5 years or forever!

  106. #106 by dawsheng on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 3:28 pm

    I don’t see any problem with three corners fight. If PKR wants to go Ipoh Timur let them go, if they wants to go to all DAP’s strongholds let them go too. I don’t think DAP candidates fear losing a few votes to PKR. What is important about the consensus between DAP and PKR on seats allocation is that it represents an opposition with a united front, which opposition’s supporters would like to see, that’s all, whether or not it is useful strategy against BN remains to be seen, but one thing for sure, it does not appear to me should DAP and PKR reached consensus makes the oppositions stronger. There’s only one way, Anwar should severe ties with PAS then disband PKR and all its members join DAP, Lim junior should be chairman and Anwar be SG, Uncle Kit retired.

  107. #107 by Jong on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 3:53 pm

    Dawsheng, your suggestion may be a little too late but for matter of interest, may I know :D

    1. Why should PKR disband and join DAP? Why not
    under a new “united front” name.
    2. Why Uncle Kit should retire? ..to take care of his
    grandchildren? Do you realise how important
    and YB is to his Malaysian supporters? Even those
    in BN privately acknowledge and respect his
    contribution.

  108. #108 by Jong on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 3:54 pm

    oops, sorry should read:

    “Do you realise how important and popular YB is to his Malaysian supporters? “

  109. #109 by dranony on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 3:56 pm

    I think the only common call that DAP+PAS+PKR has to come out with,
    is simply to “vote against BN”,
    ie to “deny a 2/3 majority to BN.”
    The “manifesto” would simply be:
    “Make the government more responsible!”

    A call to overthrow the BN government, and install a PAS-led government, might actually scare off Chinese voters who fear PAS coming into power. The overthrow of BN is very unlikely anyway, as Mahathir himself admitted recently. The only question is the margin by which BN wins.
    Denial of a two thirds majority by BN would be a HUGE success for the opposition.

    Of course, 3 corner fights would have to be avoided at all costs.
    Every 3-corner fight is effectively giving the seat away to BN!
    Imagine, if out of 100votes cast, BN gets 45, DAP 30 and PKR 20 Ind 5 –
    together, DAP+PKR might have gotten 50, and win the seat.

    Contesting in a 3-corner fight and coming in second highest votes, is as good as having 3rd highest votes – BOTH second and third place contestants are losers. By yielding to the one with the highest chance of winning, at least they stand a chance of winning in some of the seats.

    DAP+PAS+PKR should analyse from previous 3-corner fights to see which party got more votes in the last GE, and the party with lesser votes in 3-corner fights should simply yield.
    After all, the main aim is to deny BN of such an overwhelming majority that it becomes more accountable to the rakyat.

    In fact, another strategy which might be considered would be to willingly give walkovers to BN to _a select few_ seats. If analysis of past GE results show such seats “unwinnable” the Opposition should NOT bother to contest these seats, thereby giving the electorate less hesitancy about voting in a stronger opposition ELSEWHERE.
    This would not be unlike by-elections, where some fencesitters may be more tempted to vote opposition, simply because the BN government is already in place, and there is less of a fear of the unknown, or of a major overthrow of the ruling government, and hence of the unknown.

  110. #110 by dawsheng on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 4:10 pm

    Ok lah! Ok lah! Uncle Kit should be made Minister Mentor lah! As for why should PKR disband and join DAP and be known only as DAP and not any other name? It will only be bigger and better! Unless bigger and is not better, then it should be the way it is right now.

  111. #111 by pkrian on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 4:55 pm

    dranony, i agreed with what you said but some views to share:

    “is simply to “vote against BN”,
    ie to “deny a 2/3 majority to BN.”
    The “manifesto” would simply be:
    “Make the government more responsible!”

    – would PAS and PKR agreed to it? bearing in mind the political realistic in Malaysia, denying 2/3 majority should be the goal: again, PKR will be accusing DAP will forever be an opposition with PKR having the chance of becoming Government with only 1 MP!!!

    “Of course, 3 corner fights would have to be avoided at all costs.
    Every 3-corner fight is effectively giving the seat away to BN!
    Imagine, if out of 100votes cast, BN gets 45, DAP 30 and PKR 20 Ind 5 –
    together, DAP+PKR might have gotten 50, and win the seat.”

    – again i agreed we should avoid 3 corner fights but if we see what PKR is doing and shouting then we can see they are not going towards the same directions. Even the seat of Ipoh Timur they also asked for it, whatmore to the rest? PKR kept on asking DAP to give way for them, but had DAP ever asked anything from the PKR’s existing seats?

  112. #112 by pkrian on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 5:05 pm

    just read the reply from Ipoh Timur PKR Chief on merdekareview. He said kit is challenging them for a 3 corner fight. i can’t see in any way from the statement kit is challenging. He was just giving a solution to the negotiations.

    This man accused kit of talking about the issue where the DAP-PKR leadership has given a directions not to publicly talk about negotiations. But who started it? it is PKR and Lee Boon Chye.

    Did kit say any bad words on PKR? i couldn’t see. All Kit wants is a 1 on 1 fight, and willing to tale the risk himself in Ipoh Timur.

    This man also said DAP and PKR should go together in Ipoh Timur 1 Parliament and 3 State Seats. Had the PKR leaders ever on the ground in Ipoh Timur since 2004 except for the past few months where the election heat is already on?

    Too much, PKR… PKR, you sploit the thing…

  113. #113 by k1980 on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 7:09 pm

    Beware of the failed pseudo-politicians in PKR— They are sly, untrustworthy, and ready to stab you in the back or bite you in the ass, whichever is easier.

  114. #114 by ckloh on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 7:24 pm

    Too much, PKR… PKR, you sploit the thing…

    Sadly, this is the case.

    What i see from Kit remarks are he aware that elecation is a 5 years once thing, better focus on something more important, the seats arrangement must be settled asap, so that now can start to do the necessary. Kit has gone through alot of elections before, he knows what to expect. Fair play.

    What i see from PKR rmarks are they see Perak is a big piece of cakes that are up for the takings, and they want a giant share from it. No trust in partners, they want the cakes themselves. They think highly on their capabilities and their supports more than the actual facts despite doing poorly in 2004 in the same areas. They thought BN will lose ground this time, and they will gain this time, and see DAP is a bigger obstacle in getting the cake, instead of let the partner have it, and focus on the more important issues. But they chosse to do small little things to make DAP give up the cakes, so that they can have it.

    The more important issues are, they must unite, showed the public that they are there and they are better candidates than BN which even they have the experienced to run what MP should, they usually succumb to greadiness for money and power, which led to corruption.

    What PKR really shows alot of fence sitters base on the Perak incident, wanting a bigger shares of cake, shows that they have no difference with those from BN, greed for money and power. Only difference is they have less experienced. BN representives has better experienced overall.

    I am trying to convince friends about how corrupt/useless/incapability the BN members are and supports PKR/PAS, but base on this incidents I can’t answer query from them, if the query is how different PKR from UMNO, why vote for a less powerlful/experienced one?

    And yet DAP needs Malay votes, either partner with PKR or partner with PAS. PAS ideology will make the partnership not possible and PKR are just another UMNO, arrogant, all rubbish talks but no action, and highly estimated their own capability without knowing what actually they capable of. This is the time to gain advantage over BN, yet they are more interested on their personal gains rather than the public cry for change. The only change they want is instead of BN getting all the benefits from public, they want it to be PKR instead of BN.

    Bless you, Malaysia! I am very sad.

  115. #115 by jus legitimum on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 7:53 pm

    Besides gerrymeandering,BN also resorts to phantom voters resulting in the presence of centenarian and underaged voters in the electoral rolls.Comparing Bukit Bintang or Cheras as examples with constituencies like Putrajaya and those in the rural areas of Sabah and Sarawak.The former comprising 70,000 or more voters each and the latter only less than 6000.That is the reason why we need BERSIH to clean up the election commission.In view of such problems,the opposition especially DAP is fighting a colossal battle to end the 2/3 majority of BN.Anyway,all opposition parties must cooperate and be united in the coming GE.

  116. #116 by DarkHorse on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 8:53 pm

    I don’t the many postings here which call for the parties to avoid 3-cornered fights! I say, “It depends”.

    Say a constituency has a Malay majority. If both DAP and PKR were to contest at the same time against BN, the presence of PKR helps split Malay votes that would have gone to BN. If DAp were to contest alone, those who support the opposition but are loathe to give their votes to the DAp, would vote BN.

  117. #117 by DarkHorse on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 8:55 pm

    Do you think issues or race that dominates the thinking of Malay voters?

  118. #118 by DarkHorse on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 8:58 pm

    “Of course, 3 corner fights would have to be avoided at all costs.
    Every 3-corner fight is effectively giving the seat away to BN!” dranony

    Nonsense!

  119. #119 by dawsheng on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 9:53 pm

    “just read the reply from Ipoh Timur PKR Chief on merdekareview. He said kit is challenging them for a 3 corner fight.”

    You know “tin kosong” make the loudest noise.

  120. #120 by dawsheng on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 10:02 pm

    “Yes, let us force the opposition to unite. And if they don’t then let us boycott the opposition. Let us show them we mean business.” RPK

    I think it should be the other way round. Let’s teach the people a lesson, the opposition should boycott the election and let the people see how it is going to be like without any opposition in business in the next four to five years with Abdullah Badawi as Prime Minister, I bet it is going to be great, great disaster that is.

  121. #121 by dawsheng on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 10:11 pm

    “Do you think issues or race that dominates the thinking of Malay voters?”

    Yep! It will be the same old greedy Chinese that robbed them poor till this day.

  122. #122 by dawsheng on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 10:22 pm

    “I still do not understand why you cannot accept PAS as the partner. I’m quite sure that PAS understand your struggle for Malaysian and yet they never against it. At least tey never ask you to change your mission and your party’s constitution.”

    If it is UMNO against PAS in JB, there’s nothing to choose from. All non-muslims should just boycott the election. If PAS understood non-muslims struggle for freedom of religion, they should immediately disband as a political party and transform itself into a NGO, like Sister in Islam, they can then call themselves Brothers in Islam.

  123. #123 by dawsheng on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 10:33 pm

    Non-muslims must not vote PAS. There are things I will not compromise, my beer, Bah Kut Teh and most importantly, miniskirt! Will you?

  124. #124 by Godfather on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 10:38 pm

    dawsheng:

    “That is why you fail.” Master Yoda.

  125. #125 by BoDo Singh on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 11:59 pm

    “Non-muslims must not vote PAS. There are things I will not compromise, my beer, Bah Kut Teh and most importantly, miniskirt! Will you?”

    You’re not voting for PAS. You’re voting for the Opposition. There’s a world of a difference.

  126. #126 by Jeffrey on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 12:37 am

    Dawsheng: Right on with your “beer, Bah Kut Teh and most importantly, miniskirt”.

    The ultimate object of PAS is to turn Malaysia to a theocratic Islamic state in the purest sense of the word in which “ beer, Bah Kut Teh and most importantly, miniskirt” will be denied to Dawsheng and the hedonistic likes of some us! This is its raison de etre and there are no other moderate course or compromises. You know why? The laws of God and His State cannot be denied or subordinated by any other concerns.

    Right now, PAS is putting on a show – that it is more moderate than UMNO, allow non Malays to erect their places of worship etc. This is anyway no big concession because a party like PAS premised on religion has to give importance to religion which includes not just Islam but also other religions worshipped by non muslim minorities that it seeks to govern one day.

    Right now PAS’s priority is to show that it is tolerant because it needs to court and canvass non muslim votes to get to power by constitutional means via the ballot box.

    More radical means of seizing power are eschewed at this moment because of the overwhelming military and police resources of the incumbent government that may be applied against any unconstitutional and more radical initiatives on its part, besides the fact that the majority of mainstream Malaysians are, at least at this moment, not supportive of the kind of “intolerant, punitive, bigoted, misogynistic and joyless Islam” (to borrow SIS’s Zainah Anwar’s words) it stands for.

    It is only a temporary smiling face of tolerance put forth as a means to an end for expedience. Once it attains power through assistance and on the back of PKR/DAP, and is in a politically dominant position, then it will show its true face.

    Once ensconced in power, it will use its dominant position in government to systematically eliminate all values inconsistent with what to them is purist Islam – values of pluralism and liberalism of the West, liberal democracy, gender equality, separation of secular law from religious laws, separation of the sexes and so on until in the end only the Islamist ideological conception of Islam in its purest form prevails.

    Politics is an art of deception. Don’t be so easily deceived and blinded by hatred and disgusts for UMNO/BN and the imperative to dislodge them as to not see reality beyond the wool and veil that PAS places before your eyes.

  127. #127 by Jeffrey on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 12:42 am

    Sorry typo mistake in 2nd para from bottom – “separation of the sexes” should be replaced by “separation of public and private morality…..”

  128. #128 by Godfather on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 3:19 am

    Jeffrey:

    It is very clear that you are in the camp that will perpetually be barking dogs in an Opposition that the thieves know is simply toothless. It is simply mindboggling that those who profess to know what is clearly wrong with this country espouse views that do nothing but help perpetuate the injustices created by BN.

    Kit will continue to be nothing more than an Opposition leader, and the DAP perhaps will have 15 – 20 seats. Carry on barking. The thieves are going to have a field day stealing, and you guys can continue to have your bak kut teh and miniskirts plus moaning about how the country is going to the dogs under BN.

  129. #129 by sotong on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 6:45 am

    Write a book on Malaysian dilemma in general…….you could become the next PM.

  130. #130 by Jeffrey on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 7:19 am

    Godfather:

    First of all, you have no way of knowing that when a PAS dominated Opposition takes over, it won’t equally steal, assuming that there is anything then left to steal.

    Secondly, on a personal level, I am not to sure that I am more comfortable and that we’re all better off with a government dedicated all the time to prayers than one to stealing. I guess I could tolerate corruption and racism better than religious fanaticism, but that’s a personal view.

    As I look around the world, the elites within governments world over steal under different guises and forms though admittedly here is blatant. Peoples in some countries (eg Iran under the Shah), fed up of corruption and abuse of power succumb to the blandishment of theocracy promising purity of religious ghovernment. Even here majority of such peoples are Muslims. What happens thereafter – in terms of freedom of personal life and choice?

    Thirdly, I don’t drive a Faustian bargain (ie of embracing theocratic Fascism in order just so to rid an ethnocentric corrupt administration) in an act likened to jumping off slowly boiling water to what I perceive to be a frying pan. Though barking dogs do not stop the thieves, I rather risk my money being stolen than soul being taken.

    I don’t accept at all your proposition that one is either with or against a PAS dominated Opposition in an the apocalyptic world of good versus evil, there being no neutral ground possible in the uncertain future, and that we all have to decide now to be either in total agreement with the corrupt and racist government of the day or have to go down the slippery slope towards a state of affairs where what happened (say) in BU4 School is just “starters” of more to come which cannot be rectified or reversed.

  131. #131 by Jeffrey on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 8:01 am

    And if “the country is going to the dogs under BN”, will it be going to Heaven with PAS? :) Go do a swot analysis, a grid of pros and cons and weigh between corrupt and racist govt on one hand and a Theocratic Fascist one on the other, and see which is lesser of two evils or rather which is easier to ameliorate in terms of their respective evils.

  132. #132 by dranony on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 8:12 am

    I’ve realised that Darkhorse is right, about 3-cornered fights being beneficial to DAP+PKR+PAS in _some_ constituencies, and depending on the electoral mix.
    I think my earlier statement about 3-corner fights to be avoided totally, needs to be amended – 3-corner fights should be avoided where the likelihood of splitting the Opposition vote is great.
    But, as Darkhorse points out, it should be encouraged where splitting of the Barisan vote is very likely, such that it benefits the Opposition.

  133. #133 by limkamput on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 9:02 am

    No, Darkhorse is WRONG. The issue is not really 3-cornered fight when it suits the oppositions. The issue is whether or not the oppositions will be able to forge genuine co-operation among themselves. If they have 3-cornered fights among themselves and some constituencies and cooperate against the BN in other constituencies, what messages are they sending to the voters in general?

  134. #134 by limkamput on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 9:05 am

    Who said we are going to go for BN or Pas. We are going to split them in the middle and we be king makers. So vote for Pas when necessary. No need to use SWOT analysis. I use plus minus framework.

  135. #135 by limkamput on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 9:13 am

    you have no way of knowing that when a PAS dominated Opposition takes over, it won’t equally steal, assuming that there is anything then left to steal.

    Taking about hypothetical argument, this is the epitome of that. May I know how useful is this argument? May be if Pas have governed this country, by now Malaysia has disintegrated and each group would have its own enclave to govern, like former Yugoslavia. You have no way of knowing that also.

  136. #136 by limkamput on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 9:21 am

    Contemplate, Contemplate, Contemplate, procrastinate, procrastinate, procrastinate, waiting, waiting, waiting for some perfect information so that we can make a perfect decision. High hope! This kind of argument can best go without.

  137. #137 by limkamput on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 9:23 am

    No, Darkhorse is WRONG. The issue is not really 3-cornered fight when it suits the oppositions. The issue is whether or not the oppositions will be able to forge a genuine co-operation among themselves. If they have 3-cornered fights among themselves in some constituencies and then cooperate against the BN in other constituencies, what messages are they sending to the voters in general?

  138. #138 by limkamput on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 9:28 am

    You’re not voting for PAS. You’re voting for the Opposition. There’s a world of a difference. BODO Singh

    For once the bodo is a genius

  139. #139 by limkamput on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 9:34 am

    Do you think issues or race that dominates the thinking of Malay voters? Darkhorse

    Now this is confusing. Is race an issue? Are issues, among others, including race? By the way, I sekolah attap lah, bukan kampong attap. So help me to understand.

  140. #140 by dawsheng on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 9:41 am

    May be if Pas have governed this country, by now Malaysia has disintegrated and each group would have its own enclave to govern, like former Yugoslavia. You have no way of knowing that also.”

    Yeah! Possibility what you said limkamput, yours a scenario of a civil war. Now anyone still wants to vote for PAS?

  141. #141 by dawsheng on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 9:45 am

    A vote for PAS is a vote for Islamic State and a possible civil war that will destroy Malaysia forever!

  142. #142 by dawsheng on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 9:54 am

    “Thirdly, I don’t drive a Faustian bargain (ie of embracing theocratic Fascism in order just so to rid an ethnocentric corrupt administration) in an act likened to jumping off slowly boiling water to what I perceive to be a frying pan. Though barking dogs do not stop the thieves, I rather risk my money being stolen than soul being taken.” Jeffrey

    God bless you Jeffrey! God bless!

  143. #143 by DarkHorse on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 10:16 am

    “But, as Darkhorse points out, it should be encouraged where splitting of the Barisan vote is very likely, such that it benefits the Opposition” dranony

    I thought so. I thought you missed something in your original statement – just like I missed mentioning something in mine earlier i.e. in a Malay dominated constituency, fielding a PKR candidate along with another from the DAP, could help split the Malay votes that are likely to go to BN in the absence of a candidate from PKR, and I must add, assuming the PKR candidate is a Malay.

    So we can agree that there is no hard and fast rule. It is safe to say that the decision to avoid having 3-cornered fights or to have 3-cornered fights would have to depend on the racial profile of the electorate of that particular constituency, and the race of the candidates being fielded ceteris paribus.

  144. #144 by Jong on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 11:36 am

    Let’s keep our fingers crossed, let good sense prevail and wait for success at the DAP-PKR negotiating table that they will come out with a solution that is agreeble by all concerned.

    PKR Perak chieftan has done enough damage by going public to antangonise DAP, let’s not create more issues and problems for them.

  145. #145 by Godfather on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 12:33 pm

    Jeffrey said:

    “…I don’t drive a Faustian bargain (ie of embracing theocratic Fascism in order just so to rid an ethnocentric corrupt administration) in an act likened to jumping off slowly boiling water to what I perceive to be a frying pan. Though barking dogs do not stop the thieves, I rather risk my money being stolen than soul being taken.”

    That is the standard comment of all naive Chinese. Tell me, how could PAS (or the DAP) by itself win an election ? How many candidates can you field that will enable you to form the next government ? Can PAS win the two-thirds needed to amend the Federal Constitution ? Even if the Opposition can win 51 pct of the seats and form the next government, what domination would PAS have to take your soul ?

    The reality is that we have to work together to deny the BN the two-thirds majority which would hopefully then reduce the stealing, the removal or stupid and unjust policies. UMNO will implode once the BN loses the two-thirds majority and Big Ears will simply be sent into retirement.

    This is the opportunity to deny BN the two-thirds majority, not for the Opposition to win the elections. As any bookie on Petaling Street will tell you, the odds of the Opposition forming the next government are virtually negligible.

    Those who tell us that PAS is taboo are simply BN agents trying to “split” the Opposition vote to prevent the loss of their two-thirds majority.

  146. #146 by Godfather on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 12:44 pm

    Of course, if all the DAP wants is 15 – 20 seats, and the leadership of the Opposition, and the continuing barking of all the injustices perpetuated by the ruling coalition, then by all means treat PAS also as “the enemy”. Many of us harbour hopes of the Opposition being able to deny BN the two-thirds majority, but I guess it is not to be with supporters like Jeffrey and dawsheng. So we shall all have to sit back and wait for the thieves to steal until there is nothing left to steal before they would implode.

  147. #147 by mycroft on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 12:51 pm

    If you choose to sleep with dogs, you’d get up with fleas.

  148. #148 by Godfather on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 12:53 pm

    Regime Change is not about toppling BN at the next elections. Regime Change is about routing MCA and Gerakan in key states like Penang, Melaka, Perak, Selangor. It is also about PAS winning more seats in Trengganu, Kedah and Perlis. Together, the Opposition can deny the BN its two-thirds majority. When that happens, the leadership of the various BN parties will be held accountable for the “loss” and new leadership will come in, hopefully with more transparency and accountability in their governance.

  149. #149 by dawsheng on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 1:09 pm

    How can PAS help DAP to win more than 20 seats? Remember it was the other way round many years back? Say we deny BN 2/3 majority in parliament with the help of Chinese voting for PAS, when it comes to the issue of religion, guess where PAS will stand? We achieved nothing by helping PAS to increase their political base whether at state level or in the Parliament, we are increasing the chances of Malaysia becoming and Islamic state faster. Taking a shortcut to deny BN’s majority by voting for PAS you will find yourself walking in a maze with no exit instead. None of the problems we faced is solved!

  150. #150 by dawsheng on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 1:17 pm

    There maybe one hundred differences between PAS and UMNO but having that one similarity is enough to tell you “DON’T” because nobody can ever changed that similarity, what more when we have two. Non-muslims must not vote for PAS!

  151. #151 by dawsheng on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 1:22 pm

    Malaysia is a secular state and political party based on religious principal has no room to flourish in multi-racial and multi-religious country like Malaysia.

  152. #152 by Godfather on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 1:23 pm

    That is why the DAP will fail.

  153. #153 by Godfather on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 1:26 pm

    With such mindsets, the Opposition does not have a chance, and we are back to where we have been in the last 50 years – barking at injustices, barking at the daylight robberies, barking at the constitutional changes that erode our rights. Carry on barking. My family and I will just spoil our votes as a sign of protest at BN policies.

  154. #154 by Loh on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 1:51 pm

    ///Once ensconced in power, it will use its dominant position in government to systematically eliminate all values inconsistent with what to them is purist Islam – values of pluralism and liberalism of the West, liberal democracy, gender equality, separation of secular law from religious laws, separation of the sexes and so on until in the end only the Islamist ideological conception of Islam in its purest form prevails.///– Jeffrey

    If PAS-led government behaves as is stated above, it will not last more than one term of office. The opposition parties of the day would stage a come back, and we do not expect them to compete on who could do worse to the citizens.

    BN has shown that after 50 years, they have perfected the art of boiling frogs, and knowledgeable people on this blog would still want to continue with the old ways. The men on the street are now doubt more easily threatened with a possible recurrence of May 13, and would help to maintain BN in power.

  155. #155 by dranony on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 2:18 pm

    Godfather, why spoil your votes to protest BN?
    Might as well give your votes to the Opposition, whichever party is against BN, in your constituency.
    BN is too deeply entrenched, with too many beneficiaries, to be deposed.
    The only thing that the rakyat (who are fed up with BN’s trampling over the sentiments and concerns of the rakyat), can do would be to just significantly decrease BN’s majority.
    There is NO REAL possibility that BN will win less than 50% of the seats at this present GE.
    Even if BN did (although this is a near impossibility, imho) win less than 50% of the seats, it can still form a coalition government by accepting some PKR, DAP or PAS winners into cabinet with it.
    Of course, the BN’s monopoly and tremendous power (and with it, tremendous corruption) will be over.
    THAT, is what we should aim for.

    There is NO possibility that PAS will win enough seats to form the next government. EVEN more impossible would be the possibility that they have 2/3 to amend the constitution.

    I think Jeffrey’s view and dawsheng’s view that a vote for PAS is selling your soul, is too simplistic.
    We need to see the reality that PAS and DAP can never win enough seats to form the next government, even if jointly.
    And EVEN IF DAP did win a huge number of seats, and BN falls short of ability to form a government on its own, DAP might rather join a BN led coalition (after extracting favorable conditions plus promises of better governance) than to join a PAS-led coalition.

  156. #156 by sotong on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 2:27 pm

    Strong support for religious party like PAS is the direct result of failure of the government to deliver justice and fairness.

  157. #157 by ckloh on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 2:37 pm

    Those who tell us that PAS is taboo are simply BN agents trying to “split” the Opposition vote to prevent the loss of their two-thirds majority.

    Whilst I agree theoritically that DAP, PKR and PAS to cooperate in this election is the only way to deny BN 2/3 majority.

    But practically, I think it is just easier said and done, and I eagerly hope that I proved wrong, so that we can outsted those coconuts from BN.

    And to say those that are not voting PAS are agents/moles sent by BN are not true. The facts are many Chinese will deflect back to BN, if DAP and PAS jointly anounced a pact for this election. If those Chinese bloggers that are supposed to be more open to opinions and ideas are equally divided in supporting PAS, how about those senior Chinese citizens that are not internet literate, or those Chinese youngsters that are only interested in discos/hong kong pops or handphones?

    We can argue until tomorow, those that not agree can make some experiments below.

    1) Experiment 1
    Location: Magnum/Pan Malaysia/Toto
    Reason: There are alot of Chinese here especially of Saturdays and Sundays, enough to cause jems in various place.
    Action: Just take a sampling of 10 person, and ask them two political question. This might difficult, most average Chinese will not be interested in political related matters.

    Questions
    A) Do you think those running in the govermnet are a bunch of crooks who destroy our nations?
    You might get 70% say yes, if you are lucky.

    B) If the answer is yes, are you willing to change it by voting PAS, but it means you need to give up buying 4D? It is all for the sake of the country, you know.
    If anyone answer you yes, chances are he is not Chinese.

    This is sad, but I think it is true. You might want to prove it, or you can proceed to Experiment 2.

    2) Experiment 2
    Location: Discos/Pubs on weekends
    Reason: There are alot of Chinese youngster here especially of Fridays and Saturdays, enough to cause jems in various place.
    Action: Just take a sampling of 10 person, and ask them two political question. This might difficult, most average Chinese will not be interested in political related matters.

    Questions
    A) Do you think those running in the govermnet are a bunch of crooks who destroy our nations?
    You might get 70% say yes, if you are lucky.

    B) If the answer is yes, are you willing to change it by voting PAS, but it means you need to give up liquor? It is all for the sake of the country, you know.
    If anyone answer you yes, chances are he is not Chinese again.

    Whilst I want to believe we can deny two third to BN if directly work with PAS, but I believe a lot of Chinese are not in the same boats. You can educate them, you can give them proofs, but to ask them to give up their personal interest, just for the sake of the country and deny BN two thirds, well I am not optimistic.

    No point arguing, if you don’t agree please do the experiment above, and let us know the result. Seriously, I have tried with the sampling of 3 each, and all the 6 person agree that the government is corrupted, some angry but none of them interested to vote PAS, if this is the only way to deny BN two third.

    Try it out.

  158. #158 by Godfather on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 2:42 pm

    I despair because the hardcore support for the DAP has always said “over my dead body” in any attempt to work with PAS. I despair because I can’t see the light at the end of the tunnel for future generations because this country is already on the slippery slope to oblivion and no one is brave enough to say “I am putting my chauvinistic principles aside for the sake of future generations”.

  159. #159 by Godfather on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 2:49 pm

    ckloh:

    What sort of sampling were you doing ? Did PAS say that non-Muslims cannot have liquor or buy 4-D ? I can drink beer in Kelantan and Trengganu as openly as I could in KL. You can have bak kut teh in Kelantan, can’t you ? Your questions suggest to me that those were the exact fears that BN want to instill into the non-Muslim population. In fact BN has now gone a step further – threatening us with a repeat of May 13 and that threat came from the MCA !

  160. #160 by dawsheng on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 2:56 pm

    You see, the non-muslims in this case, the opposition’s supporters are not supporting PAS, they just want to use PAS to deny BN’s 2/3 majority but what is the consequences when denying BN’s 2/3 majority with PAS becoming a major political party? If I am PAS of course I will say please come and vote for me, I will help you deny BN’s 2/3 majority if that is what you want, but that’s about it that PAS will do for you. If we cannot deny BN’s 2/3 majority without PAS then so be it, I am not betting our freedom of religions and rights to freedom of expression as barganing chips.

  161. #161 by sotong on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 3:02 pm

    With PAS, race is not an issue…….but it is a huge issue with UMNO.

    Politics of religion is most divisive and damaging.

  162. #162 by ckloh on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 3:05 pm

    Godfather,

    You might be right or you might not be right, I don’t know for sure. But this is the perception that among my samplings, which are bunch of my Chinese colleagues and former classmates, to answer your questions.

    It is all about perception, again I believe it is not that simple, vote PAS meaning no 4d and liquor, they can’t form the government, thus can’t change the law.

    But this is the perception that they have. Sadly, accuracy of information is not decisive, but perception is.

    To change perception now is little too late I afraid. And it is not easy too.

    One might say, what can a MP of PAS do, can they change the law? One of my sampling told me that he believes as a MP he can not approve new application for 4D shops, for example. He is not going to risks it anymore. We all know how a headmasters that are pros Islam can do, don’t mention MP.

    Again, accuracy of information is not really important, but the perception is. You can test out your own samplings, and let us know your finding. But this is mine.

  163. #163 by Jeffrey on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 3:29 pm

    First of all voting is a democratic right to which a person is entitled to vote according to his conscience and if that person does not want to vote for PAS on basis of “the enemy of an enemy is my friend even though he is actually an enemy”, it is his right to which you should respect than to label him either a simplistic “naive Chinese” or “simply BN agents trying to “split” the Opposition vote to prevent the loss of their two-thirds majority”. The imputation is simply uncalled for.

    Secondly, what’s so great about depriving BN 2/3 majority, when most of the material amendments requiring 2/3 majority detrimental to democratic interests have already been effected in the last 22 years of TDM regime? Also even if BN does not have 2/3 majority required to amend the law requiring (say) Islamic law to replace common law as general law in the country, do you have doubts that PAS will not align their votes with the BN to secure the necessary 2/3 to pass through such an amendment?

    You may say what’s the difference if one does not support PAS, BN will have 2/3 anyway to pass such an amendment. There is however one difference : if you give your votes to PAS to make them stronger, it will only vindicate their thinking that mainstream support their theocratic agenda and encourage them to push harder for it. Case in point is when PAS won Terengganu, Hadi thought of implementing Hudud there in replacement of the Penal Code for Muslims; and PAS assumed a more tolerant face when it was trashed by mainstream Malaysia in the last general election where they did so bad that the Opposition Head post was taken away from Hadi. Also if PAS is stronger in Parliament it will only intensify UMNO’s race to further out-Islamise PAS to our collective detriment. And in that situation both side will be racing to intensify the Islamisation race with Non Malay/muslim support for PAS taken to be a token of their acceptance of Islamisation!

    At the end of the day, one cannot still rid of the BN in spite of the downside costs. This is something even Godfather conceded when the basis by which he imputed naiveté unto some Chinese is shown in his question : “Tell me, how could PAS (or the DAP) by itself win an election ?” (in context of even if we give votes to PAS in certain circumstances).

    This I must say is very contradictory to what he earlier posted at 03 19:25.

    He said in that posting that “it is very clear that you are in the camp that will perpetually be barking dogs in an Opposition that the thieves know is simply toothless…Kit will continue to be NOTHING MORE THAN AN OPPOSITION LEADER, and the DAP perhaps will have 15 – 20 seats. Carry on barking. The thieves are going to have a field day stealing, and you guys can continue to have your bak kut teh and miniskirts plus moaning about how the country is going to the dogs under BN…”

    The context of that statement clearly means and is intended to mean by any reasonable who reads it that we should vote for PAS, in order for the Opposition (by inference a Malay based PAS dominated Opposition) to have a chance to kick BN out of power, and form a government on its own, something which I object because it would be a theocratic government.

    And then Godfather turned around in his subsequent posting at 12.33.08 to say a diametrically opposite thing that the intention behind giving votes to PAS was more modest – not to facilitate its formation of a theocratic government but to deprive BN of its 2/3 majority, an argument I believe I have also given a suitable response above.

    Godfather, I can only think in your favour that you are too blinded by hatred for the BN and the urgency to hit it at all costs, no matter what the costs to personal beliefs and conscience, to see with clarity the obvious aboutface shift in premises and flaws and fallacies of the position which you put forth for our consideration.

  164. #164 by Godfather on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 3:44 pm

    I have over the years consistently said that there is little or no chance for the Opposition to come to power. Neither the DAP nor PAS could assume federal power, nor both of them combined.

    I don’t have hatred for the BN, contrary to what you think. I have hatred for injustice and theft – and I have consistently called UMNO as a den of thieves. What I have seen are policies designed by the ruling party to enrich themselves at the expense of the rakyat – and it is getting worse, not better with Big Ears at the helm. The latest of course is the bailout of Naza through the sale of a land building to Felda for hundreds of millions.

    Unlike some of you, I don’t see voting for PAS as a sellout of our souls. I see the act of NOT voting for PAS as a sellout to the future of the country and to our future generations as there will be nothing left for them.

  165. #165 by Jeffrey on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 3:49 pm

    One would realise that depriving BN off the 2/3 will not by itself stop the stealing because they’re still the government. It takes a simple majority to form government. And except for selected areas by which 2/3 majority is required under constitution, they still carry majority votes in all other issues debated in Parliament. This simply means anyone who wants to stop the stealing will have to make the BN lose power and be replaced by an Opposition dominated by PAS. To use the 2/3 argument to stop the “stealing” does not hold water. If every non Malay votes for the DAP instead of MCA/MIC & Gerakan or PAS, it is equally possible for the BN to tone down some of its extreme policies if it requires the DAP to join its fold, though whether or not the DAP wants to do so is another issue.

  166. #166 by Godfather on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 3:54 pm

    No, it will not stop the stealing, but they will have to watch the excesses. They will not be able to amend laws under the disguise of “privatisation” of certain services in order to open up new avenues to steal.

    What is likely to happen is that UMNO will implode when BN loses the 2/3rds majority, and so will MCA and Gerakan. OKT and KTK will be made scapegoats if their parties are routed by DAP and PKR. Badawi will also have to go. The hope is that whoever takes over these parties will offer greater transparency and accountability – which is really what we all want at the end of the day.

  167. #167 by ckloh on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 4:07 pm

    What is likely to happen is that UMNO will implode when BN loses the 2/3rds majority, and so will MCA and Gerakan. OKT and KTK will be made scapegoats if their parties are routed by DAP and PKR. Badawi will also have to go. The hope is that whoever takes over these parties will offer greater transparency and accountability – which is really what we all want at the end of the day.

    Just thought this is too ideal to be true, this is bolehland we are talking about!

    I can’t speculate something that haven’t happen, but look at what happen at FAM, how many results and trashings we need, in any country in the world, the president will just resign, and let others to rebuild.

    We have failed and failed again, yet the leadership is not changed, and yet the president can says he is not coward, he will not quit and still can make alot of contributions. To the extents, some of the executive members of FAM requested the president to stay, as the country needs him.

    Ok, now I speculate, if really BN denied 2/3 majority, I will expect some leaders will resign, and a few days later, they are back to theri jobs, due to the public/members outcry that we still needs their services. Some sandiwara for our enjoyment. Sounds familiar?

  168. #168 by dranony on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 4:09 pm

    The overly simplistic questions that are put to the Chinese voters by BN (ie MCA or Gerakan), in a UMNO vs PAS fight:
    -“Would you vote for a BN government (even if corrupt, where many have to bribe to get things done), or would you vote for a islamic government where your religious rights will be curtailed?”

    These overly simplistic views do not take into consideration that it is NOT necessary to have either ONLY a UMNO-dominated or PAS-dominated government.
    They fail to see that there is a possibility of a weaker UMNO-led government, where there is a stronger Opposition to keep the BN in check.

    The BN is only too happy to perpetuate this simplicity, simply because it keeps them in power.

    I personally would like to see an election where the winners are (realistically achievable) 45%-65% BN, with the other 35%-55% shared between PAS, DAP and PKR.
    In reality, BN will certainly be much more likely be 65%, than 45%, esp with the gerrymandering that has occurred.

    Will PAS+DAP+PKR coalition form the next government EVEN IF together they garner 50%-55% of the seats?
    Hardly likely, imho, as the DAP, if it can get 10%-20% of the seats, would be more likely to throw its hat in with a BN-led coalition, after suitably extracting favourable terms and promises of good governance from BN leaders.
    I suspect that PKR might also do likewise, once DAP has done so.
    Otherwise, a PAS-DAP coalition will likely be fractious, and will not survive long.

  169. #169 by Jeffrey on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 4:21 pm

    Loh said that “if PAS-led government behaves as is stated above, it will not last more than one term of office” – this assumes that you still have a democratic vote to do so. But you have seen how once a party like UMNO ensconced in power could do things. So the case with PAS. It could change the constitution to make sure ulamaks and clerics only govern and don’t be surprised that if it is in power, a lot of UMNO supporters may switch to join PAS to share power making PAS stronger and those against its agenda weaker.

    I have mentioned before in my earlier posting – “I don’t accept at all your proposition that one is either with or against a PAS dominated Opposition in an the apocalyptic world of good versus evil, there being no neutral ground possible in the uncertain future”, so what do I mean “ neutral ground possible in the uncertain future” ?

    Much of the dilemma is caused by an option between two alternatives – either BN in its present form or PAS.

    Are there no other permutations granted that Malay majority votes are crucial supporting either of these 2?

    Well I am not saying that this will definitely be feasible but it is possible to think about : what if, as it happened, majority of non Malay votes swing to DAP leaving MCA/MIC & Gerakan ? (Forget about PAS, its not in the equation).

    Will it not be possible that UMNO (for the sake of showing pluralistic representation) may invite the DAP (that has made MCA/Gerakan/MIC irrelevant) to join the BN fold in their stead on grounds that both sides give in a little on their traditional agendas and platforms?

    Isn’t this “ neutral ground possible in the uncertain future” as a tentative step forward in nation building in place of the other two undesirable options – either BN in its present form or PAS?

    Assuming DAP joins under such conditions, will this not ameliorate or mitigate some of the excesses of UMNO/BN (so that BN becomes a different form) or are you going to say that DAP will be corrupted by joining? :)

  170. #170 by Godfather on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 4:25 pm

    DAP joining the den of thieves ? “One for you, one for me…one for you, one for me….” as the DAP and UMNO reps chant over the camp-fire…

  171. #171 by Jeffrey on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 4:29 pm

    It looks like what dranony said – “Hardly likely, imho, as the DAP, if it can get 10%-20% of the seats, would be more likely to throw its hat in with a BN-led coalition, after suitably extracting favourable terms and promises of good governance from BN leaders.
    I suspect that PKR might also do likewise, once DAP has done so.
    Otherwise, a PAS-DAP coalition will likely be fractious, and will not survive long” – is asymmetrical to the hypothetical scenario I last posted at 16: 21.33, as a possible permutation to that of either BN inthe present form or PAS (either of which is undesirable).

  172. #172 by Jeffrey on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 5:01 pm

    //DAP joining the den of thieves ? “One for you, one for me…one for you, one for me….” as the DAP and UMNO reps chant over the camp-fire…// (Godfather) simply puts an end to all arguments for change of government because if DAP – to whom generations of Malaysians are indebted for 30 years for championing civil and democratic rights – can “One for you, one for me” over the campfire once it share power with BN, how will it be any different when it shares it instead with PAS/PKR that you have been advocating everyone here to support their coming to power (in spite of the baggage of theocratic PAS)??? I would have thought you have more faith in the DAP than to say something negates everything else that you have been advocating all along. :)

  173. #173 by limkamput on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 6:59 pm

    Are there no other permutations granted that Malay majority votes are crucial supporting either of these 2? Jeffrey

    Why either of these two? If non muslim votes can be split in the middle, why is there no such possibility of Malay votes going both ways? We need to make both Unmo dominated BN and Pas equally strong or equally weak, depending on how you look at it.

  174. #174 by Godamn Singh on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 9:41 pm

    What nonsense are you talking about??

  175. #175 by Loh on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 10:27 pm

    It might be true that PAS might remove democratic election within one term in office. After fifty years of the so-called parliamentary democracy, BN has slowly and surely remove the fact minus the form of democracy. When democracy is actually removed both in fact and in form, the people, both Malays and non-Malays would have a common objective in removing the dictatorial government. Yes, some UMNOputras could join PAS, but you will not expect all of them to do so. For those who remain, it would be less man more share. The honest among them may have the opportunity to rise to the position to lead the party away from its old self.

    BN will never give up its time tested racist policies because the victims have conditioned themselves with the thought that things could be worse. Yes PAS could make our lives worse, but there might be a chance that they would make it better for all Malaysians. But with BN, we know that it would only make it worse for non-Malays for all to see, and to Malays too though not apparently.

    It is not realistic to expect that PAS can come into power in the coming election. But we shall welcome it in the unforseen event, and be prepared for the worst while hope for the best; we have no hope under BN.

    We must start by voting for opposition in the coming election, PAS included. It is hoped that MIC can be wiped out in the coming election. Without MIC, BN cannot claim that the race-based parties represented the interest of all communities in the government, and conveniently blames or praises Samy Vellu for supporting all the discriminatory racist policies of the government.

    The only hope for the country is change. To change we need to support PAS.

  176. #176 by waterfrontcoolie on Friday, 25 January 2008 - 11:41 pm

    Let us look at one objective at a time. What is the 1st objective? Be realistic, the current combined opposition cannot topple BN. You only try to get 35%, so that they cannot do as they like. 2nd point, trace the history of the past polls, it would give an indicator as to which partner stands a beeter chance. Of course we have been talking about equitable respresentation of all Malaysian races. Can share that based on the overall percentages recorded? I do believe that in the ‘more’ urban area, the voters are expected to be better informed, hence should put on their thinking caps when voting. Show the ‘less progressive areas’ that we can transient the race factor!! We should be able to vote ALL those who are able to stand up and be counted come what may! By now, we should have an inkling of these people; if not, then MATI-LAH OPPOSITION! We might as well end all these discussions HERE!!!

  177. #177 by Godfather on Saturday, 26 January 2008 - 12:40 am

    Ask yourself these questions:

    1. Are you better off now compared to 20 – 30 years ago?

    2. Do the futures of your children and grandchildren look brighter or dimmer ?

    [Clinton asked a variation of these questions when campaigning recently on behalf of Hillary.]

    If your future, and the future of your children and grandchildren are likely to be dimmer, then you have no choice but to go for regime change. Don’t be like the Philippines where the point of no return was reached because the majority did nothing until it was too late.

  178. #178 by limkamput on Saturday, 26 January 2008 - 12:43 am

    The nonsense I am talking about, Mr. Godamn, is why must there only be two alternatives available to non Muslims, i.e. to either vote for UMNO (BN) or Pas? The non Malay can vote for both Pas and UMNO in order to split the Malays right in the middle. The problem with the non Malays is they will vote for opposition other than Pas. This results in Malays forming Government and non Malays in opposition. What I am saying is why can’t non Malays vote for Pas too. We must make both UMNO and Pas equally strong so that they are equally weak. Each of them will then have to depend on non Malays to form the government. Make ourselves the king makers rather than being scum recipients. Godamn, if simple stuff like this you can not understand, please don’t come here to insult me.

  179. #179 by DarkHorse on Saturday, 26 January 2008 - 3:56 am

    “Godamn, if simple stuff like this you can not understand, please don’t come here to insult me.” limkamput

    He’s not insulting you!

    He’s just expressing his disgust for a comment that makes no sense. May be he’s not doing that. I don’t know and I cannot speak for him – but I think he has a point.

  180. #180 by Samson on Saturday, 26 January 2008 - 4:17 am

    We have given too much power to BN over the years. Give BN another term who knows Malaysia will become an ISLAMIC STATE with no beer, bak-kut-teh and miniskirt allowed for the minorities of non-malays. MCA and MIC will as usual render themselves useless and spineless representatives of the minorities.

    As at now under the BN government, we have seen how BN government has gradually increased the tax on beers and continuously attempted to make pig farming difficult and employed little napoleon to carry out the Islamisation processed to replace the wearing of “miniskirt” with the wearing of “tudung”. The demolishment of temples, the “body snatching”, the mushrooming of mosques and suraus are signs that Malaysia under BN is moving towards Islamisation. So what is the difference between PAS and BN?

    I won’t be surprised that if this continue on PAS will sooner or later join force with BN and that’s the end of the non-malays.

    Godfather and Loh are right. PAS may win small battles but they won’t win the war. I dare say between DAP and PAS, DAP will win more battles. There is no way Malaysia will be Islamised if PAS can only win small battles. But if BN wins, Malaysia will be an Islamic state as this is what our PM and DPM would like to portray to the delight of Muslim majority(or even to PAS) in Malaysia. The minority will continue to suffer.

    What DAP should try to do is to garner as much support from the people by emphasizing and propagating on the unity among all BANGSA MALAYSIA(not races) and emphasizing on the eradication of poverty through the development and good administration of progressive Malaysia. I am sure there are Malays who truly love Malaysia would also like to see a better Malaysia in terms of unity of BANGSA and development of the country.

    NO MORE RACE BASE POLITICS.

    Limkamput is right in his comment. If we analyze we may have the equal support of Malay for PAS and PKR. Nevertheless our OBJECTIVE is to kick BN out and hope to see a better Malaysia.

    Let’s have A BANGSA MALAYSIA for MALAYSIA

  181. #181 by Godamn Singh on Saturday, 26 January 2008 - 6:36 am

    There are Malays who are loathe to vote for the DAP, as there are Chinese who loathe to vote for PAS. That is not hard to understand. The problem is how do we get both Malays and Chinese who would vote for the opposition vote for the opposition regardless.

    There are some here who have expressed their desire to stay away from the elections if DAP is not contesting in their constituencies. This is short sighted to say the least. Their choice not to exercise their constitutional right to vote could well give the election away to BN.

    This is not rocket science.

  182. #182 by Colonel on Saturday, 26 January 2008 - 7:28 am

    “Give BN another term who knows Malaysia will become an ISLAMIC STATE with no beer, bak-kut-teh and miniskirt allowed for the minorities of non-malays.”

    You can’t be serious! Even Kit does not believe this could happen. An Islamic state with 40% non-Muslims?? It’s not gonna happen! This is mere political rhetoric and we know it and they know it. The Malays and Muslims themselves know this. Are you saying the non-Malays are presently in fear of being made Muslims and have syariah law applied to them??

    “I won’t be surprised that if this continue on PAS will sooner or later join force with BN and that’s the end of the non-malays.”

    Isn’t hypocritical of you to be calling for an end to race based politics and yet advocate its relevance? You look upon BN as if it is a single party when it is a coalition of a number of parties Malay and non-Malay and Muslim and non-Muslim. The end of non-Malays?? Pandering is not the solution.

    Crying wolf like what you’re doing here fortunately will not mislead those moderates among Malays and Chinese who still make up the majority of voters. The electorate is sufficiently informed and educated to know that the politics of race must give way to the politics of compromise as we approach election day.

    The problem is how to convince voters unhappy with BN to come out to vote for the opposition, to turn their indifference or empathy into votes for the opposition, that BN is leading the country in the wrong direction and that it is time for the people to take back our streets and our government from a group of self-serving, corrupt Malay Islamo-fascists.

    You make sweeping and contradictory statements which stand in the way of an electoral alliance between DAP, PKR and PAS – and Kit’s effort to forge a working electoral strategy. It is wishful thinking to say or imply that DAP can go it alone.

    Not if it is serious in wanting to obliterate that overwhelming 2/3 majority control of our Parliament – which is key.

  183. #183 by Colonel on Saturday, 26 January 2008 - 7:38 am

    “What I am saying is why can’t non Malays vote for Pas too. ” limkamput

    Yes, why can’t the Chinese or more specifically DAP supporters vote for PAS if that means voting for the Opposition against BN? Why must they so loathe the idea of voting for PAS simply because they disagree with their support for an Islamic state if that means giving their votes for the Opposition?

    What is worrying is that there are some among us who hate PAS more than they support the Opposition.

  184. #184 by Godamn Singh on Saturday, 26 January 2008 - 8:45 am

    ““What I am saying is why can’t non Malays vote for Pas too. ” limkamput

    This is Malinglish! Not Chinglish or Singlish. What do you mean by “PAS too”?

  185. #185 by oknyua on Saturday, 26 January 2008 - 10:00 am

    YB Lim, this must be a record posting where discussions spilled into the 4th day.

    Godfather has a point about PAS. On Thursday I had lunch with a PAS member/supporter. Many things said about PAS are what we (in this case you) reads in the papers, mostly as part of UMNO divide-rule manoeuvre. I have consistently posted that in reality they are far different from what we perceive.

    It is PAS’s manifesto to impose Islamic rules, BUT they are honest about it. They have declared their willingness to talk to non-Muslims about their rights once they are in power. On the other hand, UMNO had given forked-tongue announcements, saying what suits the audience. UMNO have nice words in front of you but unashamedly treats us differently a day after. How AAB treated Chong KK in Sabah and the treatment if Herald are the best examples still fresh in our heads.

    The critical consideration: to support PAS and harbours hope for a change in government, or to ignore PAS and doomed to be toothless opposition for another 4 years. If the BN are made of self-restraining people, there is nothing to debate. But BN as we witness is increasingly blatant in ignoring all forms of good governance. In the MIC, MCA, Gerakan and UMNO, we see leaders as embodiment of crooks, liars, thieves, self glorifications etc. Indeed the BN is rightly still the Den of Thieves, but throughout the 2007, I could add BN is a: Den of Crooks, Den of Liars, Den of Hypocrites.

    YB Lim, the concern expressed here may be a factor for DAP and PKR to speed up the pact. Personally I am not too much a fan of PKR. If you recall this party was set up for one particular purpose and since then changed their tune a few times. Yet for the sake of this nation, it is a necessity. Without a DAP candidate my vote would be for PKR.

  186. #186 by khoo on Saturday, 26 January 2008 - 10:00 am

    185 comments,I believed there will be more comming.That shows how important this topic.We need you to stand together and don’t repeat the 3-ways fight like in 2004 election.You have all the support of the people now more than ever.I personally believed you”the opposition” could do some damage on the BN.I plead to all opposition leaders,please sit down and talk all night if you need to but NO MORE 3 Ways fights.We are running out of time..Jom.

  187. #187 by dranony on Saturday, 26 January 2008 - 10:11 am

    I have been telling people I know:
    “This coming election, if I had to choose between an UMNO candidate, and an underwear, I’d vote for the underwear.”
    The problem though, is that if many voters are like me, and there are too many underwears to choose from, UMNO might still win! :(

    Therefore, three corner fights where the opposition vote is split, should be avoided.

  188. #188 by azam on Saturday, 26 January 2008 - 1:18 pm

    Still some of you are very prejudist and suspicious.
    Respect the other struggle and opinion is part of the civil society. Knowing and understand is very improtant. Thats why you need more dialog and drink tea togather with PAS member.
    You mention that no beer in Kelantan. This is absolutely wrong. You can drink alcohol any time and any amount in Chinese restaurant in Kota Bharu or at your home. Nobody can stop you. Some of our brothers Thai people have home-made beer.

  189. #189 by dawsheng on Saturday, 26 January 2008 - 1:29 pm

    In PAS Kelantan, women was raped because they wore sexy clothes.

  190. #190 by dawsheng on Saturday, 26 January 2008 - 1:31 pm

    In an Islamic state, if your that “thing” stand when you saw gals wearing miniskirt, it is her fault you know.

  191. #191 by limkamput on Saturday, 26 January 2008 - 1:51 pm

    In PAS Kelantan, women was raped because they wore sexy clothes. dawsheng

    You have always appeared to be someone mature and telling people, including me to behave. Please don’t insult Pas and Kelantan this much. Most of rapes are committed by wannabe lawyers who have one glass too many in the many pubs we have around PJ and KL.

  192. #192 by dawsheng on Saturday, 26 January 2008 - 2:02 pm

    Then it must be the beer and the miniskirt! You ask PAS supremo Hadi, he will tell you the same thing. If you think I am talking craps, wait till you hear what Sister in Islam have to say about PAS.

  193. #193 by limkamput on Saturday, 26 January 2008 - 2:11 pm

    Azam,
    As a Chinese, I fully agree with you. We have a group of bigots here who can’t see their own prejudice and racism. They talked so eloquently about fairness and justice but if given a chance they will abuse their authority to the keel. They think they are here to give support to DAP, but in actual fact they have done great disservice to the party. They talked about democracy when they are the most authoritarian people I have come across. They talked about freedom of speech and opinion so long as they are in agreement with have half bake sense of right and wrong. The people I am referring to, in order of gravity are [email protected]@[email protected]@undergrad2. These are the bunkum baloney people.

  194. #194 by dawsheng on Saturday, 26 January 2008 - 2:12 pm

    “if you give your votes to PAS to make them stronger, it will only vindicate their thinking that mainstream support their theocratic agenda and encourage them to push harder for it.” Jeffrey

    PAS is run by religious bigots!

  195. #195 by limkamput on Saturday, 26 January 2008 - 2:18 pm

    Their choice not to exercise their constitutional right to vote could well give the election away to BN. This is not rocket science. Godamn

    Owah, so discerning ar!!! Cliché, chiche. You think rocket science very tough meh?

  196. #196 by limkamput on Saturday, 26 January 2008 - 2:23 pm

    He’s just expressing his disgust for a comment that makes no sense – but I think he has a point. darkorse

    Sure, fair enough. You are now officially his standard, low.

  197. #197 by Godfather on Saturday, 26 January 2008 - 3:32 pm

    Dawsheng:

    If PAS is run by religious bigots, how should we define those hardcore DAP supporters like yourself ? Patriots ? To which cause ?

    When Trengganu was run by PAS, my friends who have businesses there told me that it was easy and predictable to renew licences, or apply for business expansion. Things went by the book. No duit kopi, no free shares. If you run a resort, you can sell as much alcohol as you want. When Trengganu reverted to BN, things reverted to the BN way – “how much do I get?”, “how fast do you want this?”, “who is actually behind your application?”….Look at Pulau Redang today under BN – resorts were approved and then built without environmental considerations. The biggest resort on the island dumped construction waste into the sea, reports were filed against it, but no action was taken.

    The fears of 1999 are weighing heavily on the minds of the old DAP leadership, but the time has come for us to give the Opposition – any Opposition – a chance. Not to govern (because it is mathematically remote), but to keep a more diligent watch over the thieves that are constantly stealing from the national coffers. And if the Opposition doesn’t do its job properly, then we have to vote others in to replace them. Time to make our representatives work for us instead of stealing from us.

  198. #198 by Godfather on Saturday, 26 January 2008 - 3:33 pm

    Limkamput:

    Stop this namecalling. I know the others are baiting you, but rise above it and comment constructively.

  199. #199 by dawsheng on Saturday, 26 January 2008 - 3:56 pm

    Just because I am against voting for PAS because it is run by religious bigots makes me a DAP hardcore supporter, therefore a democratic bigot?

  200. #200 by Jeffrey on Saturday, 26 January 2008 - 5:22 pm

    No duit kopi, no free shares in some cases yes but in other cases I too know of people/friends who had to pay to get their concessions/projects in Kelantan. So?

  201. #201 by dawsheng on Saturday, 26 January 2008 - 6:07 pm

    From the PAS supporters within the DAP, they say_ Pt1

    “The non-muslims are slowly accepting PAS since Hadi had gone low profile.” Toyolbuster

    “What is so wrong with engaging PAS directly ?” Godfather

    “now, i think partly most of them have got a clear message regarding PAS. even thought at times PAS have it own way of implementing islamic rules, of which it really scare others away.” Burn

    “Dear all, we should reject BN and vote for opposition parties, EVEN PAS. PAS is not the enemy but BN is. BN has betrayed the rakyat. They have raped our constitution rights. They have meddled with our judiciary systems. They have SECRETLY ISLAMISED Malaysia to the disadvantage of the minority non-muslims. They have taken the law into their own hands.” Samson

    “Do not be afraid of PAS. At least we know who they are and what they are fighting for.” Samson

    “look, even if PAS was to run against BN, dont spoil your vote. you think that if PAS was to win JB, they can change the govt? JB will be a hudud islamic state? come on mate, nothing of that sort will happen, what you can do is to vote PAS, as then YOU have an opposition MP in parliament and to object to BN’s blatant amendment in the constitution! “ Shiver

    “I’m quite sure that PAS understand your struggle for Malaysian and yet they never against it. At least tey never ask you to change your mission and your party’s constitution.” azam

    “You can see how much they changed since the past few years. You yourselves cannot change in a day. How you expect the other to do so.” azam

    “PAS is very transparent. I don’t know any of the goverment in the world make public dialog before table the state’s enacment. PAS make it in Kelantan. “ azam

    “You’re not voting for PAS. You’re voting for the Opposition. There’s a world of a difference.” Bodo Singh

    “So vote for Pas when necessary.” limkamput

    “Those who tell us that PAS is taboo are simply BN agents trying to “split” the Opposition vote to prevent the loss of their two-thirds majority.” Godfather

    “Regime Change is not about toppling BN at the next elections. Regime Change is about routing MCA and Gerakan in key states like Penang, Melaka, Perak, Selangor. It is also about PAS winning more seats in Trengganu, Kedah and Perlis.” Godfather

    “If PAS-led government behaves as is stated above, it will not last more than one term of office. The opposition parties of the day would stage a come back, and we do not expect them to compete on who could do worse to the citizens.” Loh

    “There is NO possibility that PAS will win enough seats to form the next government. EVEN more impossible would be the possibility that they have 2/3 to amend the constitution.” Dranony

    “We need to see the reality that PAS and DAP can never win enough seats to form the next government, even if jointly.” Dranony

  202. #202 by dawsheng on Saturday, 26 January 2008 - 6:09 pm

    Pt2,

    “Unlike some of you, I don’t see voting for PAS as a sellout of our souls. I see the act of NOT voting for PAS as a sellout to the future of the country and to our future generations as there will be nothing left for them.” Godfather

    “It might be true that PAS might remove democratic election within one term in office.“ Loh

    “Yes PAS could make our lives worse, but there might be a chance that they would make it better for all Malaysians.” Loh

    “It is not realistic to expect that PAS can come into power in the coming election. But we shall welcome it in the unforseen event, and be prepared for the worst while hope for the best; we have no hope under BN.” Loh

    “The only hope for the country is change. To change we need to support PAS.” Loh

    “Don’t be like the Philippines where the point of no return was reached because the majority did nothing until it was too late.” Godfather

    “I won’t be surprised that if this continue on PAS will sooner or later join force with BN and that’s the end of the non-malays.” Samson

    “Godfather and Loh are right. PAS may win small battles but they won’t win the war. I dare say between DAP and PAS, DAP will win more battles. There is no way Malaysia will be Islamised if PAS can only win small battles. But if BN wins, Malaysia will be an Islamic state as this is what our PM and DPM would like to portray to the delight of Muslim majority(or even to PAS) in Malaysia. The minority will continue to suffer.” Samson

    “What is worrying is that there are some among us who hate PAS more than they support the Opposition.” Colonel

    “It is PAS’s manifesto to impose Islamic rules, BUT they are honest about it. They have declared their willingness to talk to non-Muslims about their rights once they are in power.” Oknyua

    “Still some of you are very prejudist and suspicious. Respect the other struggle and opinion is part of the civil society. Knowing and understand is very improtant. Thats why you need more dialog and drink tea togather with PAS member.” azam

    “When Trengganu was run by PAS, my friends who have businesses there told me that it was easy and predictable to renew licences, or apply for business expansion. Things went by the book. No duit kopi, no free shares. If you run a resort, you can sell as much alcohol as you want.” Godfather

  203. #203 by dawsheng on Saturday, 26 January 2008 - 6:58 pm

    “It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle.” Sun Tzu

  204. #204 by Jeffrey on Saturday, 26 January 2008 - 7:02 pm

    dawsheng – got part 3? :)

    “Thats why you need more dialog and drink tea together with PAS member.” – Azam

    The last time I needed a dialog and suggested the PAS member drank tea whilst I, beer, he refused to sit down together. So how?

  205. #205 by Jeffrey on Saturday, 26 January 2008 - 7:13 pm

    Strange so many “PAS supporters within the DAP” but I have not heard from any DAP supporter within PAS say his piece! :)

  206. #206 by dawsheng on Saturday, 26 January 2008 - 7:33 pm

    Pt3.

    It was just after the sheep had returned, on a pleasant evening when the animals had finished work and were making their way back to the farm buildings, that the terrified neighing of a horse sounded from the yard. Startled, the animals stopped in their tracks. It was Clover’s voice. She neighed again, and all the animals broke into a gallop and rushed into the yard. Then they saw what Clover had seen.

    It was a pig walking on his hind legs.

    :)

    http://www.gutenberg.net.au/ebooks01/0100011h.html

  207. #207 by dranony on Saturday, 26 January 2008 - 7:38 pm

    dawsheng,
    I don’t see myself as a PAS supporter, even if I may cast my vote for them in an UMNO-PAS fight.
    You may say that I consider it the lesser of two evils.

    Even if there is a UMNO-PAS-DAP fight, and there is NO realistic means for DAP to win, I’d still cast my vote for PAS *this*time*around*, simply because I’d realise that the DAP candidature would serve to split the votes that might otherwise have gone to Barisan (via MCA and Gerakan campaigning).

    If it were a MCA-DAP fight ie BN vs DAP, I’d hope that PAS supporters would vote anti-BN too.

  208. #208 by dawsheng on Saturday, 26 January 2008 - 8:10 pm

    Hope, my friend, is believing that a positive outcome is possible even when there is some evidence to the contrary. And the lesser of two evils is still evil.

  209. #209 by oknyua on Saturday, 26 January 2008 - 9:02 pm

    dawsheng, good summary saves YB Lim reading all the comments.

    In a way “dranony” is stating what I feel right now; the lesser of two evils, unless of course there is a third option. Any suggestion?

  210. #210 by dranony on Saturday, 26 January 2008 - 9:32 pm

    dawsheng: “And the lesser of two evils is still evil.”
    appears to be profound, but simply a cliche.

    What is the alternative, dawsheng?
    A spoilt vote will also result in a BN win. An abstention will also result in a BN win.

    In a UMNO-PAS fight, which would you vote? Be realistic, be honest.
    If the result is BN government with >2/3,
    would it NOT be a greater evil than a BN with only 1/2 to 2/3?
    (with the rest being distributed among DAP, PAS and PKR.)

    If only PAS supporters can think logically likewise, and be encouraged to vote DAP in DAP-MCA fights, then that would also be to DAP’s favour.

    In other words, PAS supporters should also be encouraged to vote against BN where possible, and DAP supporters should be encouraged to vote against BN where possible.
    BN supporters will vote the BN in, but with a lesser majority.

    If you hesitate for a moment to ponder over it, you might also see the logic of it.
    Don’t be so quick to dismiss it, I implore you.

  211. #211 by dawsheng on Saturday, 26 January 2008 - 9:47 pm

    PKR had agreed on a electoral pact with DAP in Penang, by making the concession in Penang PKR hopes that DAP will be satisfied to lead the opposition in Penang. At the most PKR/DAP electoral pact will be achieved in few more states but it will not be all states. This is because PKR can’t squeeze any seats from PAS in other states, and this is the main reason why PKR is targeting DAP’s strongholds, like the one in Ipoh Timur. Another is what Anwar would like to see should opposition gain control as goverment, DAP will be reduced to the size of Gerakan, so Penang is ideal. That is why Keng Yeik said PKR “ciak” DAP.

    On the other side, PKR will not be contesting in JB, where PAS usually field its candidate unless PAS willingly give it up to PKR but this is unlikely. There may be an electoral pact existed between PKR and PAS achieved long ago, it is not hard for Anwar to give in to PAS because more likely he was obliged to, judging by their past relationship, PAS and Anwar has come a long way.

    Where PAS go PKR will also go but as partners. Where DAP go PKR and PAS can also go but as contenders.

  212. #212 by dawsheng on Saturday, 26 January 2008 - 10:35 pm

    But to assume that PAS is under Anwar’s control is kinda naive. Once PAS won more seats with the help of non-muslims voters, it will have more bargaining power, as to what it bargains for you can rest assure its priority will not be in non-muslims’ interest and benefits. A vote for PAS may eventually weaken the oppositions, in particular DAP, if not careful, stand a chance of being eliminate once and for all.

  213. #213 by Samson on Saturday, 26 January 2008 - 11:06 pm

    “Are you saying the non-Malays are presently in fear of being made Muslims and have syariah law applied to them??”-Colonel

    Isn’t the above happening now? A dead non-muslim being made a Muslim and a Civil Law giving way to Syariah Law in matters relating to Death Marriage and Divorce. Proof of Islamisation of BN government. Where is the JUSTICE?

    “Crying wolf like what you’re doing here fortunately will not mislead those moderates among Malays and Chinese who still make up the majority of voters”-Colonel.

    It is not meant to mislead but more of A WAKE UP CALL-To be aware of the happenings and to prevent futher violation of the poor minority’s rights.

  214. #214 by DarkHorse on Saturday, 26 January 2008 - 11:11 pm

    “A vote for PAS may eventually weaken the oppositions, in particular DAP, if not careful, stand a chance of being eliminate once and for all.”

    Care to elaborate??

  215. #215 by dawsheng on Saturday, 26 January 2008 - 11:42 pm

    Anwar have two friends, one is Guan Eng and the other one is Husam Musa but Anwar no need Guan Eng but he needs Husam Musa.

  216. #216 by alaneth on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 12:00 am

    Chinese people around the world would like a peaceful environment to make money, doing business & making more money. A peaceful=stable govt that do not restrict the environment to make money. With this respect, many will vote for stability = BN.

    However, many are also upset over the ‘stable’ govt but not providing the best environment for making money.

    For sure, a vote for DAP, even if DAP wins as many seats that one can ever dream of, BN will also rule, 99% likely with 2/3 majority, 100% with majority.

    So business-wise = Either BN or DAP is OK.

    But looking into the other issues happening like the non-muslim corpse snatching, banning lion dance in SMBU4, lock-down on beer ads, Islam Hadhari which indirectly affects non-muslims, Chinese schools, etc etc…… if MCA/Gerakan wins big = allys of UMNO = situation getting worse.

    So this time round I expect votes for DAP will increase tremendously.

    I predict this time round in GE 2008, this may happen :

    1. Uncle Lim will retain Ipoh Timur with bigger majority.
    2. Same for Karpal Singh
    3. More Parlimentary Seats for DAp – possibly 15-20.
    4. Penangnites will still chose Gerakan for State & DAP for Parliment, with an increase of the latter.
    5. Big change for Melaka – much more state & parlimentary seats will go to DAP due to Chinese fed-up with Ali Rustam’s closing down pig farms, ban beer ads & too Islamic in all his ways.
    6. BN may still lose Kelantan. The people there have deeply rooted into mini-Afghanistan’s taliban rule. Those who oppose have mostly migrated out to KL, JB or elsewhere.
    7. Johor may see a breakthru – a first DAP state or parlimentary seat to DAP.
    8. Selangor & NS will see more new seats going to DAP.

    All these I predict from the support of Malaysian Chinese from:
    a) The Sanggang By-Election effect. Higher majority.
    b) The Sarawak state elections – DAP won big there. A little known secret why DAP won unexpectedly big there… it is not only about land issues. Remember the Sarawak Tribune which was BANNED by the Federal govt just before the elections? Well, that is a widely read newspaper by the Chinese in Sarawak.!

  217. #217 by alaneth on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 12:22 am

    But for a Tribute to Dr.Chua Soi Lek, I feel DAP should NOT contest in his area Labis.

    DAP supporters or not, Dr.Chua is a very good man who’s kind deeds lived in the hearts of many Chinese.

    It is most gentlemanly that I propose DAP not to contest in his ex-seat as a goodwill gesture to him. This gentleman move by DAP in just the Labis seat will capture the hearts of the people of Johor and will cause an overwhelming support for DAP elsewhere in Johor, whereby MCA supporters will salute DAP & may even switch to vote DAP. Do it & announce it. Not only Johor, the whole of Malaysia will salute you & give better support.

    Take my advice DAP & show the nation that politics is not dirty & greedy but be the first party to go down into history that is a gentleman.

  218. #218 by Jeffrey on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 1:02 am

    Anwar/PKR weakest amongst opposition parties (with only 1 Parliamentary seat held by Dr. Wan Azizah Ismail from 9% of total votes based on last election) compared to PAS (15.2% of votes under represented due to gerrymandering with 7 seats in parliament) and DAP, presently the largest Opposition Party, also under represented due to gerrymandering with 12 parliamentary seats and 21 state seats.

    Anwar’s & PAS’s respective gameplans –

    1. for time being from position of weakness, Anwar has to basically tap on PAS Malay support & DAP’s Chinese support holding balance between them.

    2. Way to do with DAP is to convince DAP that it needs PKR because of reality of Malay political dominance so that DAP has to declare collaboration with PKR by electoral pact if and since it cannot do so with PAS and if and even Anwar does a back to back pact with PAS on the other side.

    3. Pursuant to Anwar/DAP pact, let DAP make its bid in Penang (long time ambition of DAP)for control of state govt and as trade off, make a bid for sharing of some DAP’s seats in Perak and elsewhere to gain on its own more seats at DAP’s expense. Here DAP is taking risk in Penang for their Voters may give DAP Parliamentary seats but not necessarily state seats to control state govt. In exchange for something not certain in Penang (wrestling over control of state govt) DAP sacrifices a few seats to Anwar/PKR elsewhere, in process strengthening him/it.

    4. Anwar however plays the card of telling non-Malays to win their confidence that he’s against extremist race based NEP and religious extremism. In spite of being against religious extremism theocracy, he inconsistently collaborates with the other side with PAS because he needs them to get top post when new govt formed.

    5. Meanwhile PAS for the time being assumes a less fanatical face to ameliorate non Malay concerns. Using Kelantan as show case, it tries to show its religious tolerance. Chinese are a small minority in Malay rural heartland controlled by PAS that it can temporarily afford to give equal treatment to both Muslims and non-Muslims and show greater tolerance. (This is but a small price, temporary at that, to pay to gain the support of the more numerous Chinese in other states who are unhappy with the BN’s racial policies and corruption). It also tries to use Anwar to garner Malay voters antithetical against UMNO but are too moderate to support PAS directly.

    6. The pact (Anwar/PAS) is if Opposition wins, PAS will dominate and run the new govt with Anwar as the nominal head. Anwar here rides on a tiger (of Islamofacist party like PAS) just like Lee Kuan Yew initially did on back of Communist/Socialist support to come to power and later see how it could tame it but PAS calculates that it will tame Anwar instead. PAS, once ensconced in seat of power, can discard its liberal pretensions and assert its more Islamic face/agenda to complete the Islamisation of Malaysia from point where UMNO last left off. To buttress its strength it will offer the UMNOputras sharing the dream of an Islamic State to cross over and join the PAS dominated government subject to their toeing PAS’s politics. Anwar will be given the olive branch that he/PKR too would shed some liberal pretension to compromise with PAS’s Islamic agenda in exchange for top seat, a nominal one controlled from behind by PAS, something not a great deal to Anwar since he shared same ideological pinning with Islamic Cause since his ABIM days. This is what Dawsheng probably meant when he commented “Where PAS go PKR will also go but as partners. Where DAP go PKR and PAS can also go but as contenders” unless I may add that DAP relent to play the parallel subordinate second fiddle role as MCA/MIC/Gerakan play in relation to dominat UMNO, beholden to dominant malay/muslim party PAS (for the crumbs of some positions in government) ostensibly to represent non muslims interest in a full fledged Islamic theocratic state. This is provided that DAP shed or tone down its pluralistic agenda and offers no resistance to PAS’s Islamic state and its agenda. It is a condition precedent to DAP to share crumbs of power in a PAS dominated government dedicated to Islam, nominally led by Anwar. With power, PAS could then execute its agenda to change the Federal Constitution presently based on sovereignty of man made laws to one based on God made divine laws (of course with certain concessions to Non Muslim minorities).

    This is the likely scenario if for some fortuitous events lead to a PAS led Opposition winning the elections and in position to form government ie if the win and transfer of power by BN were not disrupted and thwarted by any untowward incident parallel to 5/13 to justify why the results of election not being carried out in the name of national interests…..

  219. #219 by dawsheng on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 1:30 am

    Politics is an art of deception.

  220. #220 by Jeffrey on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 1:51 am

    In an opposition led victory, how can DAP still assert its pluralistic/secular agenda – and yet remain and share power and have a part to play in the new government – when the politically Malay dominant senior partner main raison de etre is to form the Islamic state/government and change the Constitution to a Sharia based one, and Anwar/PKR for the sake of Anwar’s position as nominal head, does not back the DAP’s agenda and instead go along with PAS?

    If Anwar/PKR did not back DAP years back when it split from BA over PAS’s theocratic policy why would Anwar/PKR back DAP when power is finally attained by and within grasp of PAS led Opposition?

    Not backed what do you expect DAP to do? If it sticks to its guns, it will have again to leave to bark as a lone opposition against an Islamofacist government like the way it did in the past against UMNO led BN.

    What will happen to UMNO by then in the opposition have to do to win back power principally from Maly votes?

    If they are not already incarcerated by PAS govt in the name of the Almighty (since no ISA by then) and if they are afforded democratic leeway to contest the New Opposition PAS led govt, UMNO will probably have to come out with further programs to further compete and outislamise PAS’s theocratic state – which DAP cannot even join or collaborate if that were the reason it was kicked out or had left the new BA PAS led government!

    Well the DAP would revert to its previous role as a “barking” opposition except that it is alone barking this time around since UMNO opposition is dedicated to further compete in Islamisation with PAS led/Anwar Govt.

  221. #221 by Jeffrey on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 9:31 am

    But in the other scenario of PAS led Opposition failing to win sufficient seats to form govt but make sufficient inroads to deprive BN 2/3, would the UMNO led BN, in an attempt to rectify loss of support become more democratic and acountable as people wish here or the other way, to islamise further the administration in a bid to win back Malay ground lost by competing more with PAS’s winning formula?

  222. #222 by Godfather on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 10:48 am

    Jeffrey:

    An Opposition led victory is a myth. The other scenario of the Opposition denying the thieves the two-thirds majority is what we should aim for. UMNO may compete with PAS to be even more Islamic in order to win back the Malay votes, but what can they do without the 2/3rds majority ? It will be the death knell for the non-Muslim parties in the BN coalition.

    As Limkamput pointed out in one of his comments earlier, the non-Muslims could become the “swing” votes between PAS and UMNO, and that it is equally possible that either party may become more liberal in order to secure their positions.

    Lastly, why the comment regarding a PAS-led Opposition ? Can’t it be a DAP led Opposition or a equal partners Opposition ?

  223. #223 by dawsheng on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 11:11 am

    “UMNO may compete with PAS to be even more Islamic in order to win back the Malay votes, but what can they do without the 2/3rds majority ? It will be the death knell for the non-Muslim parties in the BN coalition.”

    Once the competition between UMNO and PAS intensifies it will be the death knell for any non-muslims party in any coalition. In current situation, MCA, Gerakan, MIC are losing non-muslims supports in the BN coalition because UMNO’s religious bigotry, trying to outdo PAS to maintain Malay-muslims supporters base.

    To expect UMNO and PAS to become more liberal after receiving swing votes from the non-muslims will be naive, as history has shown that it will be the contrary. Has UMNO become more liberal after 50 years? PAS’s current soft approach is just a tactic to fish for non-muslims votes.

    Can MCA/Gerakan/MIC/PPP led the BN coalition? A DAP led or equal partners opposition is not possible this general election but depending on the result DAP may lead the opposition in 2011 or 2012, provided non-muslims did not vote for PAS.

  224. #224 by Jeffrey on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 11:29 am

    //why the comment regarding a PAS-led Opposition ? Can’t it be a DAP led Opposition or a equal partners Opposition ?// – Godfather

    The reason: in this country with current 60% population and growing at a faster rate than others, I assume rightly or wrongly, the reality that a Malay/Muslim based political party, whether UMNO or Pas, will lead the show, with Malay political dominance being the main political leitmotif, it being extremely hard for me to conceive DAP led Opposition or a equal partners Opposition will be allowed to come to power and run the country.

    In the other situation, I don’t really subscribe to Lim Kam Put’s suggestion that non-Muslims could become the “swing” votes between PAS and UMNO, and that it is equally possible that either party may become more liberal in order to secure their positions because that presupposes that non Malay votes/constitutencies are significant in number and critical factor especially over time whereas it is my expectation that over time with the comparative higher Malay birth rates (not to mention influx of Indonesians) and migration of Non Malays plus the gerrymandering that is going on, non Malay votes/constitutencies will get less and less significant in overall political equation. (Even now how many non Malay seats in Parliament can they get if they all vote for one party instead of being fragmented – maybe 30%? If I were right, then the Malay votes/constitutencies will get more and more important in proportion to the Islamisation theme competed for by the 2 Malay based parties. I don’t think principles of liberal democratic government count that much for the majority group because otherwise PKR would have done much better than with just 1 Federal seat and to have to depend on PAS competing with UMNO for the Malay ground. This would be the same reason making it not a big issue to either UMNO nor PAS in response to the other point you made – ie that “UMNO may compete with PAS to be even more Islamic in order to win back the Malay votes, but what can they do without the 2/3rd majority ? It will be the death knell for the non-Muslim parties in the BN coalition (meaning it will implode).
    Rustam Ali of Malaca – and one poster here Shamsul Anuar – made this point that UMNO can run the show without any of the non Malay component parties if push comes to shove and bottom line. Presently it still maintains the facade of ‘ power sharing’ just to give the world the impression that its group is representative of plural Malaysia which is small price, as long as everyone knows who’s boss. They are not worried about implosion as in sense of BN component parties ceasing to be relevant or leaving BN fold due to intense Islamisation. They are only woried of implosion, if it occurs, within UMNO.
    , even as I that

  225. #225 by Jeffrey on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 11:39 am

    Godfather, my response to you comments is “awaiting moderation”. :)

  226. #226 by alaneth on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 1:45 pm

    We are debating too deep here into the technicalities of coalition, fear of Islamisation, etc etc…

    But the non-Muslim mindset is simple which will show in the elections. Whatever parties contest, they will vote the more pro-Liberal, pro-Secular, anti-Fanatism, anti-Extremism regardless of whatever party contests.

    Of course Khir Toyo & Ali Rustam’s extremist policies will not go down well with non-Muslims. Tajol Rosli, Adnan Yaakob, Mohd Hassan will fare better……

    If no good choice then spoilt votes will increase or they may not even bother to vote.

  227. #227 by Loh on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 4:09 pm

    ///Umno needs a fresh mandate from the people in the soon-to-be-held general election to provide continuity to the Malay agenda struggle, party information chief Tan Sri Muhammad Muhammad Taib said.

    With the new mandate, he said, the Barisan Nasional (BN) government helmed by Umno could pursue programmes to upgrade the socio-economic well-being of the Malays///

    He spoke as though Malaysia belongs only to Malays.

  228. #228 by Loh on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 6:28 pm

    The above news item was copied from Malaysia Today.

  229. #229 by Godfather on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 7:43 pm

    I guess it is a case of some of us looking at the bottle as half empty, and some looking at it as half full. Let’s move on to other threads.

  230. #230 by dawsheng on Sunday, 27 January 2008 - 10:56 pm

    It may also be a case of illusion, where some people see the bottle as full when in fact the bottle is empty. :)

  231. #231 by LadyGodiva on Monday, 28 January 2008 - 1:10 am

    What bottle??

  232. #232 by azam on Monday, 28 January 2008 - 1:50 pm

    Dawsheng;
    Very unfair for u take Islam word from SIS or anti-hadith group. Same thing very unfair for me to jugde Chritianity from the eye of Yehovah Withnesses. Very unfair for me to judge Hindu from Saif Baba perspective.
    You keep on talking about differences. What is your objectives? Why don’t you talk about similarities. I’m quite sure that the similarities are plenty to discuss. I’m quite sure that if we can understand each other, that better for future generation.
    As I state previously, PAS never ask you and DAP to change your vision, mission and struggle. PAS respect the differences.
    Taking Kelantan as example. The operating procedure introduce by the state goverment never devided based on religion. Skim Kifalah insurans give the benifit to everybody died more than 60 years old. Every chinese got problem such as house burn or flood will be help sama as malay. Even the scholarship give by this poor state to all the Kelantanese including the chinese. You can ask YB Ng Yen Yen Deputy of Miniter from MCA. She was the one who recieved the scholarship from Kelantan State during medical study.
    The land act also implement fair for Kelantan people without see the race. The malay or chinese from out site Kelantan, if they want to buy land in Kelantan, it should be through State Exco. That’s why the hindu very much agree that Kelantan state gave the primier land in the middle of Kota Bharu for them to built tample. The issues of land, my dear brother, can not hide the picture of PAS if PAS truly anti other religion.
    What do you say?

  233. #233 by sotong on Tuesday, 29 January 2008 - 8:18 am

    Most non bumi are very independent and resourceful. They do not rely on the government for their success…..irrespective of who is in government, they will not benefit much from the handouts.

    The country needs an urgent radical reform of the government administration to ensure its stability, integrity and prosperity in the long term.

    To vote for real change, one needs to vote Opposition.

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