Hindraf demo – Cabinet should offer olive branch and end all sabre-rattling

The Barisan Nasional leaders, led by Deputy Prime Minister, Datuk Seri Najib Razak, should stop their truculent and confrontational responses to the Sunday 30,000 Hindraf demonstration in Kuala Lumpur, as illustrated by the following:

  • Saber-rattling and tough language like newspaper headlines, “Kerajaan tidak gentar — Perhimpunan Hindraf jelas bermotif politik — Najib” (Utusan Malaysia) and “‘WE WON’T BACK DOWN’ — We will meet the challenge — Najib” (New Straits Times);
  • warning of dire action by Umno leaders including the use of Internal Security Act; and
  • Condemnation by Barisan Nasional MPs like the MP for Jasin Datuk Mohd Said Yusof branding the Hindraf leaders as “kurang ajar” and demanding action to be taken against them.

    Instead of threatening all sorts of dire consequences against the Hindraf organizers and supporters, the Cabinet should offer an olive branch to acknowledge the legitimacy of the long-standing grievances of the Indian community at becoming the most marginalized group after 50 years of Merdeka by taking the following measures:

  • Unconditional release of all 136 Hindraf supporters arrested during Sunday’s demonstration;
  • Withdraw all charges and proceedings against Hindraf organizers, including P. Uthayakumar, P. Waytha Moorthy and V. Ganabatirau.
  • Establish a commission of inquiry into the police handling of the Hindraf demonstration on Sunday;
  • Support the establishment of a parliamentary select committee on the marginalization of the Indian community which should be given three months to submit its first report by early March next year.

In my first parliamentary speech when I returned to Parliament after the 2004 general election, I had called for a Parliamentary Select Committee on the Marginalisation of the Malaysian Indian community, the new underclass in the country.

I had quoted the paper “Election 2004: New Politics for Indian Malaysians” presented by “Group of Concerned Citizens” which had summarized nine long-standing fundamental issues faced by Indian Malaysians, as proper agenda to constitute the terms of reference of the Parliamentary Select Committee on the Marginalisation of the Malaysian Indian community, viz:

  • The number of Indian youth dying in police custody has increased;
  • The socio-economic inequality between the Indian poor and rich and between other communities has worsened;
  • The State has not responded effectively in addressing social ills in the community;
  • The State policies towards and financial allocation for Tamil schools remains pitiful;
  • The University intake policy has been a source of major distress for the community;
  • The State has not stepped in to help resolve the MAIKA scandal;
  • The Kampung Medan racially-motivated killings have not been brought to a closure. No public inquiry was instituted.
  • Low cost housing needs of the Indian poor have not been adequately addressed;
  • The negative consequences of the final breakdown of the plantation economy on the Indian rural poor have still not be regulated. Aggressive displacement of Indian Malaysians is a serious problem.

There will now have to be a tenth term of reference — the rampant demolition of Hindu temples and disregard of the religious rights and sensitivities of the Malaysian Indian community.

On June 4, 2004 I had written to the Works Minister and MIC President, Datuk Seri S. Samy Vellu, asking for his support in Cabinet for the establishment of a Parliamentary Select Committee to break the back of the problem of the marginalization of the Indian community, as the Indians in Malaysia had not received commensurate benefits from decades of national development.

Although Samy Vellu expressed support for the proposal for the establishment of a Parliamentary Select Committee on the Marginalisation of the Indian Community when he received my letter, nothing has been heard on the matter in the past three years.

Will the Cabinet heed the “cry of desperation” of the Malaysian Indian community as symbolized by the Hindraf demonstration on Sunday — or will it remain, blind, deaf and mute to the growing sense of despair, disillusionment and alienation of Malaysian Indians?

  1. #1 by pulau_sibu on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 12:03 pm

    I really felt that the issues should be addressed for all the poors in Malaysia, not just the Indian communities. There are poors among the Malay and Chinese as well, and the Ibans and Dayaks, and they should not be neglected.

  2. #2 by Fort on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 12:18 pm

    There are a very large number of marginalised Malaysian Indians. Many used to work in estates. Nowaday many of them have been displaced by foreign workers.
    The time has come for all Malaysians to have a fair share to earn a decent living in our land.
    The ruling elites must wake up from their slumber. They appear to have lost touch by the things they say, and said it arrogantly as though they are the kings.
    The people know their rights and are rising up to determine their future. The Australians have voted out a good government. They want a better one! What about the Malaysian government?

  3. #3 by Joetan on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 12:21 pm

    UMNO is too arrogant to acknowledge the grievances of the 30,000 demostrators. Samy vellu is too comfortable with his wealth and position in the UMNO led government to heed the call of the demostrators. So, the poor indians are left to fight for themselves and to face the ISA if they dare to challenge the discriminate policies. Even Devamany refer the indians demostrator as THAT TYPE OF PERSON. So, what can the indians do? They can only pray for divine help.

  4. #4 by budak on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 12:22 pm

    Pulau_Sibu, as suggested earlier…
    get all minorities together, find an auspicious day…
    we march peacefully to respective State Palace/Rumah Yang-DiPertua Negeri…

    Let the world knows our plight and impediment under UMNO ruling, they ruled by Police, ISA and blah-blah-blah..!

  5. #5 by pkrisnin on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 12:30 pm

    I agree pulau_sibu I too wish Hindraf took in all the grievances of all poor people and stick too the gov.
    All the gov. needs to do is too insure at least 1-2 family member are assisted to get good education or a good solid job then that family member can help out the rest on his/her family to make it.
    But nooo these pricks are too busy filling their own pocket. Even if a minister is proven abusing their post to make money for themselves and their family members, he/she is still allowed to keep their post.
    I’m mad about this fact the most

  6. #6 by mwt on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 12:31 pm

    There are suggestions that the Government “legalize & legitimize” street demos to make them respectable as a “Budaya” or culture for the opposition by giving them a permit, the designated place and a limited number of people. No way will the government allow this to happen. The ensuring publicity generated would be counter to all the efforts they are using to silence the opposing views. The tendency to put a ban on opposition voices is much greater than anything. Read closely the transcript of what the IGP said in the interview he had with Al Jazeera and the perceived fears of a “racial clash” rearing it ugly head and the same is said by Nazri about “historical background. We are a multi ethnic country….” in the 101 East Forum.
    Of course the most unkind cut or joke by the IGP is about “the absence of leaders” to hand in the Memo when he has virtually “arrested” and frightened them with the restraining order. And the latest twist & spin is his claim they have “no intention” to hand in the memo.
    More details

  7. #7 by pulau_sibu on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 12:48 pm

    The incident reminded me of Martin Luther King. He fought for the black and achieved something for the minorities that we probably had never anticipated before. Now all the minorities in America benefited from his fight.

    I suppose the fight should be for all races of Malaysia. That is why I wondered why only Indians formed the gathering? Was it not the business for all of us?

    We should always remember the poor Malays and Ibans/Dayaks who never benefited from NEP, but may as well became victims of the NEP. We should not have bad feeling toward all Malays, but those Malays, Chinese, Indians and Ibans/Dayaks who hold on to power for generating their own wealth. They are enemies of all of us.

    Who is going to champion for the poor Malaysians? Lim Kit Siang is doing a very great job, and his works called for the attention world wide.

  8. #8 by AntiRacialDiscrimination on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 1:04 pm

    A sad reality in Malaysia:

    The Malay problem is a national problem.

    The Chinese problem is a racial problem.

    The Indian problem is no problem.

  9. #9 by messy on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 1:14 pm

    they’re not solving HINDRAF’s issues…
    adress the issue…30k indians did not walk for nothing
    30k indians had a point to be issued…

    face the issue not push it away…
    guessed it is what BN does best…push the issue away and blame leader…then blame opposition party…

  10. #10 by ENDANGERED HORNBILL on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 1:14 pm

    Now Najib is ‘pantang dicabar’. UMNO is pantang dicabar. Now come wind, come weather, UMNO thinks they can wield the ‘BIG STICK” or is “Kerismuddin” brandishing his keris again?

    27/11: ISA may be used on illegal demonstrators, says Johari
    Category: News Posted by: raja petra
    B. Suresh Ram and Giam Say Khoon
    The Sun

    The government has not ruled out the possibility of using the Internal Security Act (ISA) on those involved in illegal demonstrations and gatherings.

  11. #11 by Jimm on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 1:16 pm

    Those “businessmen” in government outfit are too much nowadays.
    Anyway, they have never experience such a massive public cries since gaining control of the government.
    I believe that they have ‘pushed’ their luck way to far now.
    When the poor gets much poorer, nothing ever matters to them anymore even giving up their own lives in order to gain asimple truth about their existence.
    Now, see .. who are more afraid to die with these people ..
    SV … your tune are getting no way now …
    TUN is still afar for your grasp … you better pray harder as your brother are no longer there to pray on your behalf as he used to do all these while …

  12. #12 by fish_talk on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 1:18 pm

    While Hindraf (and Bersih, a week ago) are sitting out on the Streets.
    The UMNO regime is laughing away at the back.

    Who cares if the Indian or non-Malays are being starved to death.
    Here we have our rich Indians (Mr. Deva./ Samy/ etc … .) to counteract them.
    We have the Polis, and KGB style gangster manning the street.
    These bloody poverty stricken fools can be bullied easily anyway, And we will feed them with Tear Gas, and water canon and baton strikes, and lock them up.

    Meantime back home….
    My son’s Scomi is working on his Billion RM Contrcts to be won from Govt.
    My SIL with his AirAsia is also busy over his new found gold in the KUL-SIN route.

    Come next year, the Toll adjustment shall further enrich my coffer as my proxy will bring in the RM milked from the PPL. Really have to thank the UMNO strategist who so cleverly formulated the UNFAIR contracts signed between Govt. and the highway operators.

    Life is so good. Long live UMNO.

  13. #13 by k1980 on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 1:22 pm

    What the hell, you voted for BN the previous time? Now you deserve what you are getting now
    For people like Ramakrishnan, worried that rising food and fuel prices are eating into his meager income, the choice will be easy. “We will vote opposition this time to send a clear message to the Malay government to treat us with respect, to share with us,” he says. “We fight for the future of our children, we don’t want them to suffer like us.”

  14. #14 by limkamput on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 1:28 pm

    I agree with you fully, Pulau Sibu. The issue is not really the marginalisation of Indian community in Malaysia. I think every facet of government’s policies toward the minorities, including the indigenous groups in Sarawak and Sabah, need review and attention. I really appreciate the resolve and bravery of HINDRAF in highlighting their deprivation for the attention of the government, the Malaysians in general as well as the international community. For too long, I think the BN led by UMNO, has been practising racism and hypocrisy to the core. HINDRAF to me represent a watershed in Malaysia’s politics. Whatever the authorities may want to condemn and say about the demo, I believe from now on the government has to seriously think about its apartheid policy. The world has changed and if we look around us, racism and discrimination are so out of sync with the world today. To me HINDRAF has been able to accomplish what MIC and other opposition parties can’t do for decades.

  15. #15 by Bigjoe on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 1:31 pm

    I tell you that the PM and most UMNO leaders has given up on the non-Malay votes going into this election. What they are most concern about is the Malay votes where benefits in the last 4 years have not trickled down to many. A lot of them are right-wingers willing to vote PAS. Its why there is sabre rattling and the PM is in no mood to appear weak to his right-wing constituency.

    The middle-class Malays are the most apathetic lot with many UMNO members don’t even bother to register to vote. The right wing vote is the most reliable voter for UMNO. If they don’t come out to vote for PM, he could lose his 2/3 majority.

    In the end its Badawi fault for coming to this junture. He came in with wide popularity and instead of tapping real experts in reform UMNO/BN and the government, he tapped his son-in-law and insider who had their own agendas. He had a long honeymoon and now its over. Hindraf clearly sent that message to him.

    But worst, does he realize his options are even more limited than it was. Weak leadership got us here and weak leadership will not get him out. He has no choice, he has to go hardcore right and we are all going to pay the price for it. There can only be more confusion and fragmentation to diffuse the situation which means he will offer an olive branch at the most serious situation. Not now.

    If I were Hindraf, I would put out a public statement that says that unless the Malaysian government stop persecuting them, then they cannot control their members and warn of violence putting the problem squaring in the BN and PM hands…

  16. #16 by limkamput on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 1:32 pm

    We need more HINDRAF. Constitutional struggle and free contest of ideas will only work if everybody, including the government of the day, plays by the rule. It is not like those in government today do not know what constitutes good governance and ethical behaviour. Our parents, societal values and religions would have taught us that. To keep reminding the government the need for good governance to me is a wasted effort. Good governance is essential the trade off between private greed/interest and public interest. I believe no government will deliver us our rights and liberty on the silver plater. One just has to look at how the Blacks in America got their civil rights in the 60s in one of the world’s biggest democracy.

  17. #17 by limkamput on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 1:36 pm

    …should be…. “Good governance is essentially the trade off between private greed/interest and public interest.

  18. #18 by oknyua on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 1:39 pm

    YB Lim, allow me to post on the same thing in a different way.

    A PAS branch was located near my office. The Haji, the Guru, the Accountant, and other members, they all frequently came over. They were very polite, that I must salute. When they bought something for themselves, they were not very particular about the price, but when it comes to party matters, every cent was haggled on. Very strict to the dot.

    Whenever they have functions, I have never been forgotten. They knew I was a practising and professing Christian. My conclusion, if you want to see honest and hardworking Malays, see this group.

    There is however this nagging difference. They could only see that righteous and upright bahaviour existed only among them.

    YB Lim, could there something work out between DAP, PAS and PKR where the issue of rigtheousness be left out first? Frankly I don’t know how it could be done but it is worth exploring. Look at the higher agenda. I hope YB Karpal see this posting too.

  19. #19 by lakshy on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 1:50 pm

    Najib’s and other UMNO politicans statements show several things very clearly. Their arrogance. Their unwillingness to listen to the problems of the rakyat. Their racism as they want to show that they are jaguh Melayu (real kampung mentality).

    I guess the best thing for the indians to do now, is to call for multiple demonstrations at various states at the same time. eg Johor Bahru, Seremban, KL, Ipoh, Penang. Meet at a padang or temple grounds to show our discontent. Lets dilute the strength of the security forces, and see whatb they do next.

    If this does not still convince the politicians to look at the matter seriously, which any decent government purporting to represent the people would do, then the next thing is a quiet protest. Stop work on several days in the month………..all Indians!

  20. #20 by Cinnamon on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 1:53 pm

    Dear YAB Perdana Menteri Malaysia,

    I am an Indian born in Malaysia in mid 40s. When I grew up, my best friends were Malays,, but things are totally changed.

    Indians are usually peaceful peaceful people. But their tolerance had reached maximum, and Nov 25th rally was the results of it.

    My advice to BN, please stop being in Denial syndrome. The total crowd was more the 30 thousand. That is only the tip of iceberg. Ask yourself, do you think the 30,000 people, their spouses, brothers and sisters are going to vote for BN in the coming general election? If you are serious about winning, each and every vote is important. Indians might be the minority, but swing of votes of minority can be the deciding factor in victory. Or do you want to learn the hard way?

    Please start doing HONEST damage control activities. The first thing you should do is to call a dialogue with Hindraff leaders. Put aside your personal ego. ask what is important; personal ego or victory in GE as a result of restoration of harmonious interacial relationship.

    Please don’t ever say MIC represents the Indian interest in the cabinet. The situation in MIC is absurd, Samy Vellu has made situation that he cannot be defeated in MIC. It is a total dictatorship rule. He learned in from Mahathir, for a candidate to contest it requires certain minimum nominations from divisions and the nominations itself carries certain number of votes. None of the divisional leaders would risk that.

    The Sunday’s rally is a slap for Samy Vellu. There is a sure sign that Samy Vellu has lost the trust of Indians in Malaysia, but he will still be the president of MIC, that is the sad part.

    Indians realize that Samy Vellu cannot demand what is right for Indian, because you have thick file on him and his son. If he doesn’t follow what what you say, he and his son will go behind bars because of their criminal activities. Indians are not stupid, we know this situation. Mahathir was extremely happy when leaders of component parties made criminal acts, because from that point onwards, the leader of the component party was his pawn. Indians know this very well!

    Indians have be very patient, and suddenly Hindraff came into prominence after the Kg Jawa temple demolition. Just within 2 months Hindraff managed to pull some many Indians to the rally. Why? Please don’t ever say Indians were mislead by Hindraff, please don’t ever say Indians came there because of the trillion dollar law suit. Please don’t insult our intelligence.

    We indians attended the Sunday rally because we want to wake up the government, we want the government to realize that Indians too has a limit to their tolerance.

    Please help yourself by ackowledging things are not right with the Indians.
    If not, BN will loose several states in the coming general election. And there is a 50-50 possibility that BN might not win the coming GE.

    Please do what can save you. Please don’t go down the history was the shameful prime minister of Malaysia.

    Thank you.

  21. #21 by Libra2 on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 1:53 pm

    There you have it.
    Kit had highlighted the plight of the Indians in the so called ” right way”. Nothing was done. He informed Samy. Nothing was done. He informed Parliament. Nothing was done.
    Now the guy who wanted to “soak the keris in Chinese blood” threatens the Indians for doing what they ought to do.

    Tan Sri Raman Navarathnem of CCPS had also said in his press statement:
    “However, such forums, panels and meetings have been conducted on numerous occasions to little avail. These articulations are compiled into reports and submitted to various committees, but it is precisely inaction and non-response from the Government that has fuelled frustrations amongst those groups who have not received equal treatment. ”
    The government had been deaf and had ignored the pleas through the RIGHT channels.

  22. #22 by mendela on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 1:55 pm

    Oknyua, I totally I agreed with you.

    BTW, we need to be aware of the “main stream media” making false accusations that DAP and PAS are fighting one anothers. The “main stream media” will do anything to ensure havocs for the oppositions.

    The last thing UMO wants to see is a solid coalition front among the 3 main opposition parties, Keadilan, PAS and DAP!

  23. #23 by Libra2 on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 2:08 pm

    When a government is allowed to rule for too long this is what happens.
    It thinks it owns the country, the people and their thoughts.
    It thinks the people should be beholden to it’s leaders.
    It thinks the people show their gratitude to the leaders.
    It loses touch with the pulse of the people.
    It distances itself from the people.
    It become a separate entity to care and itself.
    It abhors criticisms. It think sit is infallible.
    It become the master and the people, the slaves.
    This is Malaysia.

  24. #24 by Libra2 on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 2:10 pm

    It become a separate entity ans cares for itself.
    It abhors criticisms.
    It thinks it is infallible.

  25. #25 by Jong on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 2:27 pm

    Taiwan sent their government packing after 50 years. Australia just did it, sweeter infact – the Aussies made sure John Howard lost even his own seat and sent him into political wilderness!

    Do you think we can do it guys or miss the boat again? We must not miss it again. Comeon Malaysians, let’s send BN/UMNO packing!

  26. #26 by cheng on soo on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 2:46 pm

    Jong, i dont think so it can be done this time, many rural folks still support Bangsat Negara team

  27. #27 by siudidi on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 2:56 pm

    Since when will the thickhead BN ever listen? Making enemies locally and globally, instigating tensions racially and religiously, going around put up on air like a big show-off and spending excessively on lavish make-over are what the BN gahmen good at.

  28. #28 by AhPek on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 2:58 pm

    We have just witnessed a change of guards in Australia, with John Howard congratulating the incoming new PM Kevin Ruud and what a peaceful change-over!!
    More importantly, why do Australians decide to switch over to Labour.After all John Howard has done well for Australia.However irregardless of that, John Howard has been PM for 4 terms,11 years todate and for Australians it’s enough for any man to hold power this long and it is precisely the fact that no man can be trusted with holding power for long period that Howard has to go!
    Now if we just take a look into New Zealand,Canada, Britain and all of western European countries you can hardly find leaders in power for more than 12 years.Of course in the case of US the Presidential term is limited to 2 terms ie 8 years.
    Just look at Malaysia. BN has ruled for more than 50 years today.Look what have we got.ACA,POLICE,JUDICIARY,AG CHAMBER
    and every institution you can think of all made to be beholden to UMNO.ALL peaceful protests will be denied permission and if carried out will be met by water canons, tear gas and batons.All voice of dissent are suppressed with force.ISA is often used without qualms and media will be used to support governmental actions to perpetuate their rule.
    The sooner Malaysian get to learn this ( that NO man or party can be trusted with power for long period) and we have been 50 years late, the better.GET this message to as many people as you can if you love Malayia and make a change for this coming GE like what AUSTRALIA has shown us.

  29. #29 by sotong on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 3:03 pm

    The enormous damage from decades of narrow, short sighted and damaging politics of race and religion is long term and far reaching -let alone the current problems of corruption, abuse of power, gross excesses, discrimination and etc..

    There is no quick fix. These problems must be properly and urgently addressed and resolved.

  30. #30 by Jimm on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 3:04 pm

    Actually, all Malaysian just need to wake up to reality and accept changes.
    It’s no longer a blunt subject about my, mine, yours, yours from here.
    It’s ours and ours all the way.
    We all knew that EC have assisted BN to win seats through out all past GE and even fixed certain seats to be won by Opposition to keep everyone happy.
    The Done Master have once said that voters might not know who are they voting for as they only recognised the logo.
    Even with most of us that will switch our vote in the coming GE, BN will make sure that there are still enough counts to ensured their 2/3 majority to continue ruling this country.
    So ? Don’t get mad with the people as they are also victim of ‘fixed’ poll result.
    Afterall, government have plenty of reserved voters to distribute to ‘needed’ areas to ensure result.
    Don’t worry … people .. fellow Malaysian..
    All we really need is KJ to bring the whole UMNO wall down and BN to the ground.
    Save your energy .. KJ will get things done for us …

  31. #31 by sj on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 3:19 pm

    This should not come as a surprise right? Remember the “Kalau tak suka, keluar dari Malaysia” talk? These are the guys that spew the fire and brimstone anyway. Coming from Najib “Change your lifestyle” talk, you would think he would know what the poor people in Malaysia wants? No, he does nto know. He is not fit to lead either. He is just a spoilt brat listening to Rosmah. These inhuman unholies has no regards for human rights. Hell they dont even know what it means by human rights. So why waste time and your breath arguing with them? Pointless, just vote them out and put them under rigourous investigation for corruption once the dust settles.

  32. #32 by waterfrontcoolie on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 3:25 pm

    pulau_sibu, you are on track; let all POOR Malaysians who need help be entitled to it. The current sandiwara only benefitted those connected to the POWER that be. I came from a kampong which has not seen much changes since I left the place 45 yers ago. The Sate seat was at one time held by the Menteri Besar himself then.
    Obviously, what the local Bumis had was going to the local Us and worked in some Gomen departments. Being less 100km from the Federal Capital, with Putra Jaya, it would be less than 60km, life in the kampong remains as it was , 50 years after our great celebration! Many are still dependent on small time fishing and the coconuts. By all accounts these are the people who need help.
    There is no doubt POWER breeds ARROGANCE; let reduce the power base for a start!

  33. #33 by People on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 3:28 pm

    It’s time for a change !! Bring back the Tanjung victory formula in Penang and scare the hell out of the BN blood suckers. It’s time for YB to go down to the new villages and fishermens for their votes!!

  34. #34 by People on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 3:39 pm

    If anyone watch the show Lord of the Rings – the return of the king, you can see that even the dead will rise to help the righteous and finally got rid of the evil eye!! The BERSIH and Hindraf gathering was a good start!!

  35. #35 by Putra-Malaysia on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 3:47 pm

    Why some Malaysian leaders are having small brain? Leaders are actually a part of people. Once they’ve been chosen as a leaders they think they’re KING, shouldn’t be questioned, shouldn’t be corrected…and the list is go on. Some dare to say without shy “Saya Pantang Dicabar”. Why they cannot think the given seat by people is only for probationary only, say 5years(one term).
    But truth is …once the seat is given, they misuse the ‘temporary’ power to gain the access to alter the laws to suit to them so that they can maintain at the seat forever with ‘permanent’ power.
    People are Malaysia, people are Leaders!
    Ignore the temporary leaders if they’re not correct!
    50 years is too long to a same group in the same seat…prompting to comfortability and forgetting people’s suffering.

  36. #36 by ADAM YONG IBNI ABDULLAH on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 4:13 pm

    my utmost respect to hindraf to be able to mobilise the indian community to the front , and to be seen , and to be heard as a part of the nation.

    but as many had commented , other poors should not be neglected too. there are many living below poverty line, the malays, chinese,indians, dayaks,ibans, portuguese . what i fail to understand is that comes every elections, by or general- the opposition fails. !!!!

    i think, dap,pas and pkr should not be called opposition parties. they should collectively be called the parties for the marginalised, neglected, and as such appropriately known as barisan raayat.

    seriously,the terminology “opposition” denotes an opposite of anything from the main. i dont for once think yb lim, is an opposition leader.he is a citizens’ leader.

    november 10 and november 25 will be in history for the future generations as the waterloo for an end to intimidation, discrimination and like david versus goliath, the people faced the barrel of the guns bravely.

    to expect the government to offer an”olive branch” to the suppressed is far fetched. from the ceo of the country to his deputy, we are threatened with isa and further criminal charges.

    i still believe,that malaysia is better off as a nation with non race based parties. this mix match does not work . this mismatch has only enrich the elites. the connected. the powerful .

    come the next general election, even with a reduced majority of the barisan nasional, i bet my last ringgit , pas , dap and pkr are poor bedmates. dap will continue to woo the chinese voters, pas the malays and pkr the anwar ‘s factor.

    regardless of being the majority nor minority, there will be no peaceful co exixtent, unless we are prepare for sacrifices. even in iraq ,among the shia and shites, they are killing each other. and in communist china, the poor gets poorer whereas the rich gets richer. so the state of utopia is actually only a dream.

    nonetheless, hindraf has awaken us from that dream – but hindraf alone cannot walk the journey. the malays, chinese, ibans, dayaks, portuguese, indians that feel the pulse of DISCRIMINATION AND INTIMIDATION ,must walk as ONE. only than, the day of a new society will be born. otherwise, it is only a futile display of street emotions with no legitimate solutions in the pipeline.

  37. #37 by oknyua on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 4:20 pm

    All right, at least we have some consensus about TRYING to topple the BN gov’t.

    What is the game plan now? Do we continue to use YB Lim’s blog? And YB Lim, what say you? We must move beyond talking (& writing) by now.

    Alternatively YB Lim, lay out some action plans and let us who comment here try to fill ourselves into the plan. Bersih and Hindraf started this way. DAP, PKR and PAS can do something in similar fashion, of course not another march because that would infer we are void of ideas.

    All agree?

  38. #38 by AhPek on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 4:35 pm

    The Election COMMISSION is supposed to be an independent body to see that the election is carried out free and fair.BN in its 50 years of rule of course would have seen it proper to put EC under their wing so that it can do their bidding ie postal votes, phantom votes. For reward the people working in the ELECTION COMMISSION will have their retirement age extended to 66 years old whilst of course UMNO is assured of their loyal support.
    By giving to them or for that matter any party your vote everytime, they will abuse it by devising a scheme to ensure power perpetually.UMNO has done in all Malaysians already!Who is to be blamed you ask me?

  39. #39 by ADAM YONG IBNI ABDULLAH on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 4:54 pm

    you are absoultely right Sir ahpek

  40. #40 by Jeffrey on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 4:59 pm

    The PM is between a rock and hard place – as regards how to deal with demonstrations.

    Hardliners within ruling party eyeing his job will question why he is not taking a firm stand to quell demonstrations by nabbing all organizers and ring leaders of such demonstrations past present and future – and will pressure for his exit for default of not acting.

    They will say if Bersih was the first after a long time, why with the benefit of experience Hindraf could summon so many protestors circumventing the Home Ministry’s dragnet put in place 2 days earlier?

    If he toes their line, his pledges for reform and more open and liberal culture for public debate will be smashed to smithereens. Also the prospects of calling an early general election to consolidate his mandate without baggage of predecessors’ men.

    If he prevaricates, time will likely act against him in terms of the economy, rising fuel costs and uncertainties of sub prime as it impacts on the wider derivative and credit bubble.

    There is however a way out. The times are such that, on balance, it is better to allow the demonstrations within limits. The more one curbs, especially when casualtiues ensue, the more street protests might take place which cannot be stopped except by heavy handed counter repressive measures, which will not only besmirch the PM’s record with a huge black spot but will shake foreign investors confidence.

    The government can allow the demonstrations – as part of the democratization process giving expression to Freedom of Assembly – by granting police permits based on defined and clear parameters which organizers will be accountable to uphold and keep.

    For example, set the time and day with duration of (say) 2 hours at specific location with defined route for demonstrators of Bersih and Hindraf to go to their destinations, whether the Istana or British High Commission. In other cases, make the Sports Stadium or Dataran Merdeka available and make sure that the demonstrations are confined there not spilling over to other areas to the inconvenience of public or businesses.

    The Police and Riot Squad are positioned not to break up an illegal assembly – the assembly is legal after all with the permit – but to assist in crowd control and help facilitate passage via the approved route to wherever demonstrators have planned to go.

    Organisers will give their personal bond to ensure that the crowd they organize will not get unruly or else they will be held responsible for them. In such way the police and uniformed personnel who are public servants are doing what they are paid for – to upkeep the law – at the same time not being turned against the very people who pay their gaji!

    To allow such the demonstrations is acknowledge that people who are frustrated need a vent to express their grievances and frustrations. Well managed, this could be a way to ameliorate public unrest. Peaceful demonstrations need not necessarily be translated as harbinger of some kind of seed for revolution to overthrow the constitutional and parliamentary process.

    To manage and regulate them is the only way to go if the PM wants to maintain credibility as regards his nurturance of human capital and a culture of freerer public discourse, a necessary part of which is the freedom of expression and assembly for people are not sheep!! He might if he succeeds be a champion of elevating democratic practice to yet a higher notch.

    Otherwise, he has to retreat to his predecessor’s autocratic shadow and order an immediate crack down. Either of these two firm options (the earlier, notwithstanding objections from within his party) – there are no two ways about it because he cannot afford to be seen prevaricating, nether here nor there letting others around him take the initiatives, either way.

  41. #41 by Karuppu on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 5:12 pm

    Surat Terbuka untuk PM
    Rintihan Masyarakat India

    Dato Seri,
    Salam sejahtera. Saya merupakan warganegara Malaysia yang berumur
    dalam lingkungn 30an kelahiran negeri Johor. Masih terpahat di hati
    saya, buat pertama kali saya mendengar amanat Dato Seri sebagai
    Menteri Pelajaran di sambutan Hari Guru Peringkat Sekolah Rendah.
    Walaupun pada ketika itu, saya kurang memahami keseluruhan teks ucapan
    Dato Seri, jauh di hati dapat dirasakan bahawa ini adalah kata-kata
    ikhlas daripada seorang pemimpin jujur yang berjiwa rakyat.
    Perasaan yang sama saya alami kembali apabila mendengar ucapan sulung
    Dato Seri setelah mengambil alih tunjak kepimpinan negara daripada Tun
    Mahathir. Kami, khususnya orang India, berasa amat lega dan gembira
    kerana kami yakin perit rintihan yang kami alami selama 50 tahun akan
    didengar oleh Dato Seri.
    Ketika Dato Seri membebaskan Dato Seri Anwar Ibrahim, harapan kami
    mula mengunung dan kami mula menaruh kepercayaan terhadap pimpinan
    Dato Seri. Kami amat yakin bahawa Dato Seri akan melakukan segala yang
    mungkin untuk memulihkan sistem kehakiman kita yang semakin parah.
    Tetapi segala harapan ini hancur berkecai pada pagi Ahad 23 November
    2007, satu lagi titik hitam bukan sahaja dalam era pimpinan Dato Seri
    tetapi dalam sejarah Malaysia secara amnya. Pada hari ini, kami kesal
    dan menitiskan airmata melihat bangsa kami dipukul, diterajang,
    diaibkan di depan mata kami sendiri. Lebih menyedihkan polis yang
    sepatutnya menjaga keselamatan kami menggunakan kekerasan untuk
    meleraikan kami yang berkumpul secara aman untuk menyerah memorandum
    kepada Konsulat Tertinggi British. Jalan raya menghala ke Kuala
    Lumpur diperiksa ketat. Suatu perbuatan yang saya rasa sengaja
    dilakukan oleh polis untuk menyemarak perasaan marah kaum lain
    terharap kaum India. Perbuatan memeriksa dan menahan hanya orang India
    diibaratkan sama seperti perangai Aparteid. Rakyat dikongkong
    kebebasannya untuk bersuara secara demokrasi. Apa maknanya kebebasan
    ini sekiranya kami tidak boleh berkumpul dan menyatakan ketidakpuasan
    kami di bawah pemerintahan Barisan Nasional selama 50 tahun. Apa yang
    kami pinta cuma secebis masa Dato Seri untuk mendengar rintihan kami.
    Tetapi kesal melihat sikap Dato Seri yang tidak mengendahkan semua
    memorandum yang dihantar ke pejabat Dato Seri sebelum perarakan
    raksasa ini.

    Dato Seri,
    Kami mempunyai sejarah 150 tahun di negara ini. Tetapi ketika
    kemerdekaan, pihak British hanya memerdekakan tanah ini tetapi gagal
    untuk memerdekakan kami.
    Ketuanan British digantikan dengan ketuanan Melayu. Takkala British
    memerintah, kami menjadi hambanya. Kini, kami masih lagi menjadi hamba
    kepada “Ketuanan Melayu” yang lantang dipolitikkan oleh
    pemimpin-pemipin Umno.

    Pada hari ini, negara kita terkenal sebagai negara perindustrian.
    Tetapi yang menjadi asas kepada pertumbuhan ekonomi dan industri di
    negara kita adalah hasil komoditi getah dan kelapa sawit. Untuk
    beberapa dekad, bangsa kami menitis keringatnya untuk mencipta dan
    mengekalkan nama Malaysia sebagai pengeluar nombor satu getah di
    dunia. Bolehkah Dato Seri sangkal kenyataan ini? Tetapi lihatlah apa
    yang menimpa kami sekakarang? Sungguh tragis nasib kami. Kami
    dilabelkan sebagai penjenayah di negara sendiri dan ramai anak muda
    kami yang “hilang” dalam tahanan polis. Bangsa yang pada suatu ketika
    dulu berkerja keras untuk membangunkan negara ini, kini hidup sebagai
    masyarakat kelas 4 di negara sendiri.

    Dato Seri,
    Mangkuk-mangkuk plastik yang menadah lateks getah busuk dan basi di
    ladang-ladang getah itu, ada kalanya lebih mengerti penderitaan kami
    daripada mereka yang datang dengan janji bak puisi lima tahun sekali.
    Setiap kali kami mengundi atas telunjuk MIC, kami menagih harapan
    mungkinkah kali ini nasib kami yang tertindas sekian lama akan
    berubah. Malang sekali, kerajaaan Barisan Nasional yang kami harapkan
    itu telah merampas ladang-ladang kami and membogelkan kami tanpa
    sebarang jaminan sehinggakan kami terpaksa hidup merempat tanpa
    kemudahan asas di tanah haram di kota. Tangisan kami tidak didengar
    langsung oleh MIC, malah MIC menggunakan sentiment ini untuk meraih
    undi ketika pilihan raya. Apa yang menanti kami cuma masa depan yang
    Kini rakyat sudah bersuara. Kami ingin berurusan sendiri dengan wakil
    rakyat kami, ahli parlimen kami, Menteri dan Perdana Menteri kami.
    Bukannya melalui MIC dan Samy Velu yang bertidak sebagai “Mandor”
    untuk kami.

    Dato Seri,
    Kami berasa kagum dengan kebolehan Dato Seri memperdebatkan
    hujah-hujah yang merangkai kesengsaraan rakyat tertindas Palestine di
    persada dunia dengan begitu lantang sekali…syabas!!..tetapi amat
    kesal dengan pendirian hipokritis kerajaan Barisan Nasional yang
    bertindak keras ke atas rayuan dan rintihan kami sama seperti si
    zionis melayani rakyat Palestine di bumi Palestin.

    Masih ingatkah Dato Seri kepada balu bekas pendaki gunung Everest,
    Moorthy dan kes Revathi, mangsa institusi kehakiman negara yang
    melaksanakan dual justifikasi di negara ini. Keluaga mereka ranap
    dalam kemelut sistem kehakiman negara. Inikah yang diteraskan dalam
    Islam Hadari? Tiada siapa yang tampil membantu mereka….mahkamah, MIC,
    Samy Vellu, Barisan Nasional tidak dapat membantu mereka. Ke mana lagi
    akan kami pergi sekiranya ditindas di negara sendiri? Ke mana akan
    kami lari sekiranya dianiaya di negara sendiri?

    Demonstrasi yang diadakan pada Ahad lepas jelas menunjukkan kemarahan
    orang India yang dipinggirkan selama 50 tahun di bawah jajahan Barisan
    Nasional. Seluruh dunia telah melihat “makkal sakti” (kuasa rakyat)
    dan mula celik dengan “demokrasi” di Malaysia.
    Kini, semua mata berada di atas kerajaan Barisan Nasional. Dunia
    menanti jawapan Dato Seri.
    Walaupun begitu, masih ada di antara kami yang mengharapkan kerajaan
    Barisan Nasional boleh membantu menyelamatkan kami. Kami meminta Dato
    Seri mengambil berat tentang rintihan kami dan memandang serius
    demonstrasi ini.
    Kami telah menjangkaui 4 generasi di sini. Sekiranya, rakyat boleh
    menerima anak warga Indonesia sebagai menteri besar mereka, kami yakin
    rakyat negara ini sudah bersedia untuk berkongsi bersama hak mereka
    dengan kami.
    Kami tidak ingin merampas hak mereka tetapi pada masa yang sama kami
    tidak akan berganjak untuk melepaskan hak kami.

    Sekian. Terima kasih

    Saminathan Munisamy

  42. #42 by Jeffrey on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 5:24 pm

    The fact is this : if you don’t give the police permit and you make arrest or hurt demonstrators based on the assembly being illegal, everyone will say that you’re brutal regime and don’t respect the rights of citizenry to freedom of speech and freedom of assembly.

    The secret is that you give the police permit but subject the permit to stringent conditions as to time place and location of the demo in the interest of public order and security, and hold the organisers personally and vicariously responsible for the conduct of the rally they organise – eg they are required to deposit an amount $$$$[ ] as refunable or forfeitable security deposit for property damage or breach of conditions of police permit – nobody can say you’re violating any fundamental right. :)

  43. #43 by Jong on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 5:42 pm

    I don’t get it, why only those people working in EC get their retirement age extended to 66, afterall they only ‘really work’ once in 4 years?

    Its Chairman Tansri Rashid said it loud and clear that it takes 3 months for ‘processing’ for every new registered voter. And they deserve to be rewarded?

  44. #44 by tiban on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 5:58 pm

    I believe HINDRAF have all the right to handover the memorandum and voice out their claims as one should not forget that on 21st Sept 1967, The Goverment of Japan signed the ‘Perjanjian Muhibbah (Hutang Darah)’ with The Malaysian Goverment to compensate Malaysian Chinese for the sufferings that they endure during the Japanese Occupation (1941~1945). The Goverment of Japan compensated the Malaysian Goverment with 2 ships and supports to establish Malaysian Shipping Corporation (MISC). Please refer to : http://hids.arkib.gov.my/doc/2001/september/21_09_1967_2001.htm

  45. #45 by shiver on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 5:58 pm

    if anything, this walk by our fellow Indian friends have brought about a change within the Chinese community, especially those who read blogs.
    its the Chinese turn some will say? i am not sure but if there is another walk, please make it a Malaysian Walk! I want to walk side by side with a Malaysian of all races.

    My respect to our Indian friends who walked the walk on 25th Nov!
    You did what so many chinese people in malaysia dare not do

  46. #46 by boh-liao on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 6:09 pm

    Many Indian Malaysians used to hold positions in Keretapi Tanah Melayu, NEB/TNB, RRIM, etc.

    Are they still holding positions there?

    Is there any Indian Malaysian railway gatekeeper who had the same meteoric rise as our Raja Zakaria?

  47. #47 by madmix on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 6:12 pm

    The Indians in Malaysia are not marginalised as claimed by the Hindu Rights Action Force (Hindraf), the organiser of Sunday’s illegal assembly, a cabinet minister said today.
    Pointing out that the rally was evidently politically-motivated, Natural Resources and Environment Minister Datuk Seri Azmi Khalid said the Indians were given ample opportunities including advancing themselves in education.

    Azmi said that during his visits to universities in Indonesia, the Caribbean countries and Russia, most of the Malaysian students studying medicine were Indians.

    “Why must they talk about being neglected? We have more Malaysian Indians studying medicine in Indonesian universities compared with the Malays and other races.

    Ah yoh.. Indians go to such universities because they cannot get scholarships, cannot get into local unis and they cannot afford the unis in commonwealth countries. So they scrap together all the money they can find and go to such fourth and firth choice medical schools. They struggle with no scholarships or loans and you dare to say such cruel things Azmi!

  48. #48 by Jong on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 6:23 pm

    See the quality of ministers BN govt has in govt? Even in a school debate, Azmi would be delivering points to his opposing team!

  49. #50 by Godamn Singh on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 8:26 pm

    ///To keep reminding the government the need for good governance to me is a wasted effort./// limkamput

    Hear that?? YB Kit.

    You’re wasting your time. You should stop blogging. Close shop and retire! You’re also stupid like that Jeffrey.

  50. #51 by lkt56 on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 8:30 pm

    The frustrations of the Indian community are evident…..

    I believe the NEP was originally crafted with a sincere intention to quickly bring the weaker Malays up to strength so that they could also enjoy the wealth of our newly independent nation.

    Sadly, today that original sincere intention of the policy seems to have (perhaps some are not even aware of it) evolved into a policy wherein some people erroneously believed that the NEP is associated with one group having special rights which is a birth right.

    Such believe must be corrected and only the government is in the position to do so. The Hindraf Rally is a manifestation of the group on the wrong end of this unintended evolution of the NEP. As an ethnic Chinese, when I watch the photos, videos, of the rally I must be honest to say that I can empathize with Hindraf’s aspiration of wanting the government to take notice of their frustration.

    How one handles this frustration lies entirely in one’s own mental attitude. Our Malaysia situation is something that calls for a great deal of understanding, tolerance, and most important of all, being able to see another as a human rather than as a Malay, Chinese, or Indian.

    Our government should not ignore the people’s frustration. Talk of using the ISA for future rallies is certainly NOT going to help. The government should make a genuine effort to address the frustrations felt and expressed by not just the Indians but all Malaysians and it should also steer the NEP back into its original course.

    I have viewed the video footage in parliament and honestly I feel that the debate could have taken place in a more matured manner. Too much emotion can only close the door to honest and sincere exchange. With the highly charged emotional atmosphere, the issue brought up by Hindraf never stood a chance of being properly aired and discussed in Parliament.


  51. #52 by Count Dracula on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 8:47 pm

    “I believe no government will deliver us our rights and liberty on the silver plater.” Limkamput

    Then what happened on Aug. 31st 1957? Oh, I see….! It was not on a silver platter but banana leave.

    I hope this here fellow is not your relative YB Lim.

  52. #53 by Colonel on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 9:03 pm

    “”The government can allow the demonstrations – as part of the democratization process giving expression to freedom of assembly – by granting police permits based on defined and clear parameters which organizers will be accountable to uphold and keep.” Jeffrey

    Here’s what another commentator who goes by the handle, EARNEST has to say earlier:

    “The BERSIH and HINDRAF gatherings were NOT illegal because Article 10 of the supreme law of the land, the Federal Constitution guarantees us our inalienable rights to peaceful gathering without arms….. As a result, since Police Act Section 27 regarding the police permit contravenes the supreme law, it is thereby automatically null and void.”

    Please confirm if Art. 10 sub-clauses (2), (3), (4) Federal Constitution 1957 have been repealed.

  53. #54 by Godfather on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 9:07 pm

    I am certain that there is strategising behind the scenes between PAS, DAP and PKR but these can’t come out into the open (not yet anyway) without upsetting the extreme right in these parties. What is needed now are cool heads, and great thinkers. What Kit needs to do is to control the DAP extreme right which thinks that it can go it alone, and to hell with PAS. If Kit doesn’t exercise control over this faction, and they start mouthing off like Karpal Singh recently did, then life will not change for us. DAP will win maybe 20 seats, PKR may win 2 – 3 seats and PAS will control Kelantan and Trengganu. That leaves the door wide open for the den of thieves to continue operating.

  54. #55 by Colonel on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 10:04 pm

    “The world has changed and if we look around us, racism and discrimination are so out of sync with the world today.” Limkamput

    The world has changed??? Which hole did you crawl out from?

    Everywhere I go I see racism and racial discrimination. I was in Sydney the other day and overheard a conversation between two whites lamenting about losing their country to slit eyed chinks and nips. Then just the other day I came across two Brits in Luton (an Indian enclave) obviously visitors to this part of the country who complained about Pakis ( a derogatory term used loosely to refer to Pakistanis and Indians) ruining their country with the smell of curry, and how one of them has had to vacate his apartment because she could not stand the strong smell of curry etc. One cannot help but wonder why they come to Luton in the first place because as you drive towards the town, the smell of curry is in the air miles before you arrive!

    There was this one day when I was waiting for a flight out to San Francisco from Narita when I overheard two Japanese businessmen referring to Italians as “itako” which in Japanese means “stupid” according to my Japanese friend who was with me.

    Racism is a fact of life for as long as there are different races walking the earth. Racism is a belief that members of each race has abilities or characteristics specific to that race so as to distinguish it as superior to or inferior to another race. It is prejudice or discrimination directed against someone of a different race based on that belief.

    To say “it is out of sync with the world today” is to fail to understand the nature of racism, to be simplistic and naive about a problem that is complex, subtle and far-reaching in its consequences.

  55. #56 by lakshy on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 10:35 pm

    This is an SMS I just received:

    Note to All Malaysian Indians: Pls call our elected Representative in Parliament and ask whatever help U people needs. These so called Indian and Hindu leaders will fulfill your needs: Dato S. Samy Vellu:019-2165555, Dato’ G Palanivel: 012-2051557, Dato’ S. Veerasingam:012-5068888, S. Sothinathan:019-3176541, K. Komala:019-2631909, S.A.Vigneswaran:019-3832281, S. Subramaniam:012-6013370. Pls pass this msg to all Msian Indians out there.

    Oh, by the way, I did ask for Devamany’s contact number but was told that even MIC members have deleted his number already!

  56. #57 by Colonel on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 10:39 pm

    ““….those in government today do not know what constitutes good governance and ethical behaviour.” Limkamput

    Excuse me??? Such condescending attitude is typical of someone who thinks too highly of himself. First, this bloke says it is “a waste of time” to talk about good governance, implying that YB Kit should stop talking about “good governance” on his blog, and now he insults the intelligence of those in government service by saying they do not understand what good governance and ethical behaviour is.

    I have been in government service (MINDEF) for some twenty plus years and I can confirm that we do understand. So please do not hurl insults at our intelligence.


  57. #58 by lakshy on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 10:50 pm

    Colonel …then how do you explain the over priced caperas, and car jacks and screwdrivers?

    What about teh maintenance contract for naval vessels? Who does it go to? How much for each vessels annual maintenance? The way we spend on the maintenance, we may as well buy a new vessel!

    And how can the contract be awarded to the recently retired Navy chief? Sounds like poor governance?

  58. #59 by shaolin on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 10:55 pm

    100% agree to your suggestion and all my full & strong

    Uncle Lim KS must lead to form nationwide street demon-
    stration in every state throughout whole Malaysia to show
    the Peoples’ strength and power, like Dr. Martin Luther
    King did in US and led the Minority Black Power to make
    new US History…!!

    We need all the Opposition Leaders to organize and lead
    all the Poor Peoples to fight for their rights to survive
    better and lead a decent life!!

    Malaysia Government under AAB Administration neglects
    poverty and sufferings caused to all the poors, regardless
    of their origin and race!!

    We request All Opposition Party Leaders to join hands and
    form stronger forces to demand the Basic Rights to survive
    for All the Poor Peoples of Malaysia!!!

    We demand CHANGE of Government and SACRIFICES is
    necessary for the Benefits of All Brotherhood!!

    Long Live the Spirit of Martin Luther King!!!

  59. #60 by HJ Angus on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 11:04 pm

    I am sure those in high office know what is good governance but it seems many do not practise it.

    Just look at the simmering RM4b PKFZ project.
    Maybe it is a case of
    “The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak”.

  60. #61 by malaysiatoday.com on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 11:07 pm

    tiban Says:

    November 27th, 2007 at 17: 58.26
    I believe HINDRAF have all the right to handover the memorandum and voice out their claims as one should not forget that on 21st Sept 1967, The Goverment of Japan signed the ‘Perjanjian Muhibbah (Hutang Darah)’ with The Malaysian Goverment to compensate Malaysian Chinese for the sufferings that they endure during the Japanese Occupation (1941~1945). The Goverment of Japan compensated the Malaysian Goverment with 2 ships and supports to establish Malaysian Shipping Corporation (MISC). Please refer to : http://hids.arkib.gov.my/doc/2001/september/21_09_1967_2001.htm


    2 ships and set up MISC for bumi is called compensation for wwII crime is a joke and insulting to those people killed by Jap.

    Malaysia Chinese community has never accepted this compensation.

  61. #62 by malaysiatoday.com on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 11:13 pm

    Don’t forget that during WW II the majority of Malays including former UMNO politicians were working with Jap to chase out British and support Jap imperial army against Chinese-led resistance forces.

    “2 ships” should be assumed as award for UMNO politicians for co-horted with Jap imperial army in WW II.

  62. #63 by greenacre on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 11:36 pm

    lakshy….thanks for the phone numbers. Now I can call them for help as I need a job badly. 50+ masters and no job. Want to see how they solve quietly within the system.. sh!

  63. #64 by lakshy on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 11:39 pm

    Seriously? Masters in what? Perhaps I can assist.

    But do me a favour. Call them and chew their asses first for not standing up for the Indians. They are a disgrace to the community. Heck they may become untouchables yet!

  64. #65 by lakshy on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 11:43 pm


    MINDEF should have many examples of poor governance. High priced purchase contracts. Why buy through a third party unknown company and not direct G to G? Kickbacks? Can the unknown company come up with the Billions of dollars to pay for these weapons? Come on who are you trying to kid?

    The high priced cameras, screwdrivers, pens jacks are only the tip of the iceberg.

    Tell me how much is the annual maintenance service contract for ONE naval vessel? The amount being paid is enough to buy a new vessel and we can sell the old one to another third world country!

    Why do we award the service and spares supply contract to the former/retired head of navy? See any conflicts? Some nations have a cooling off period of 5 years post retirement before the person can supply to the military. Why dont we adopt such healthy practices?

  65. #66 by AhPek on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 11:44 pm

    What you have observed in your travels conforms perfectly to an inperfect world inhabited by mortals not immortals.One of the commenters (an UMNO apologist) of Kit’s blog has a habit of reminding commenters (when government is accused of corruption or racism) that Malaysia is not perfect.
    Racism like corruption is found everwhere and there is no place on earth that is free from these two evils.However there is this thing called the International Corruption Index which will rank nations according to which is the least corrupt down to the most corrupt.Unfortunately Malaysia doesn’t fare too well and she is also not doing much about it and in fact since the latest ranking list has come out she has regressed further! The 3 countries that is mentioned by you to have cast racial slur does not surprise most people.You see the fact is most countries have what you call an attitudinal discrimination against their minorities.That’s not too damaging against the minority.For example if you discriminate me because of my skin, it is your right of opinion. I won’t tear my guts out to have you change that.But here in Malaysia the discrimination is constitutional and one must change it at all cost because it is damaging to the minorities in this country in terms of opportunities denied!!!

  66. #67 by Godfather on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 11:48 pm

    “Everywhere I go I see racism and racial discrimination. I was in Sydney the other day and overheard a conversation between two whites lamenting about losing their country to slit eyed chinks and nips. Then just the other day I came across two Brits in Luton (an Indian enclave) obviously visitors to this part of the country who complained about Pakis ( a derogatory term used loosely to refer to Pakistanis and Indians) ruining their country with the smell of curry, and how one of them has had to vacate his apartment because she could not stand the strong smell of curry etc.”


    Yes, racism is everywhere but nowhere is it condoned or systemised as in Bolehland. In the other countries you mentioned (Australia, UK) there are no policies that discriminate against the minorities but in Bolehland, there is systematic marginalisation of citizens of minority races. In other countries, you can seek redress in a court of law. In Bolehland, UMNO is the law, the prosecution, the judge and the jury.

  67. #68 by Rocky on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 12:34 am


    unfortunately this govt doesn’t know how to deal with the issues and the rallies. Give permit like you say but they are worried cos the truth hurts thus they rather use the ISA etc and which they will use soon.

    The indians have a few issues, the death bodies being grabbed by people and the courts are not giving them fair hearings and here I’m not talking about the syariah court. also cases of conversions which again puts the indian against the wall and the constitution is not respected. than there is the limited opportunities for the indians and we are not talking about stupid fellows here, smart guys are not given a chance to either pick the course they want or totally rejected while people with lower qualifications are given places. So how does a normal indian person feels. And the BN has look the other side while all these is going on, the courts are not a place of last resort as they pass rulings based on how thgeir feel and their religion instead of the constitution.

    So who is going to defend the Indians. MIC? hell no way. Chinese or Malays. Not really. Thus they have to take to the streets and get as much attention as they can thus the lawsuit.

    Now that they have made their point, they need to find another way to move forward. maybe link it with a bigger issue, defending the poor of all races and defending the constitution. These are issue that can cut thru racial lines. So Hindraf you need to shift to issues that are not race based and attract or join forces with other people with same goals.

  68. #69 by brammma14 on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 12:48 am

    Racism is everywhere but it will be done a small group of syupid people. But here it started from the top level. Discrimination officially done by authorities. Just as an example, when I went to a local university to study accounting in 1997, there were 15 Indians out of 150 students but in 2004 when my cousin went there for the same course, he was the only Indian.
    Eventually, we’re going to lose 140 Indian Accountants in next 10 years. What about other universities? Not all non-bumis afford to go to private universities. Injustice in Education is the killer blow

  69. #70 by pwcheng on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 1:22 am

    Colonel: Yes I agree with you that racism exists everywhere but as what Godfather had put it rightly and which you had failed to see is that in Malaysia, RACISM is doctored racism where UMNO had doctored it to suit their own political advancement and inherently make use of it to fill their pockets. What is supposed to be for 30 years had been extended for another 20 years and this Never Ending Policy is played up by them as a constitutional right whenever there are cries of help for the other races. We cannot stop an individual for being a racist ( as most of us have also observed the same scenario at one time or other in many foreign countries) but the government had at least responded by imposing some laws as a check, eg. in Australia they had the anti racist law, but here the government condone it.
    That is the BIG difference and that malice which is inspired and promoted by the UMNO government is lawful which naturally brings hatred and divide among the races

  70. #71 by Jeffrey on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 2:04 am

    I agree with what you said that Hindraf should move on ie transmigrate from the race level (Indian marginalisation) to a wider national level “joining forces with other people with same goals”.What are however the chances that it will do so?

    Something is quite strange here.

    In August Hindraf compiled a 18-point memorandum ( on tamil schools, allocation of land, minimum wage, stop temple demolishment etc ) produced from a forum held recently in KL . It organized a gathering/march (supposed to be 10am Sunday August 12th) to the PM’s residence at Precinct 10 in Putrajaya. I understand that it attracted only about 1500 supporters.

    I would have thought last Sunday’s march would have addressed the Indian community’s grievances direct vis-à-vis the government just like the August Memo sought to do so.

    But Lo no, it is very oblique, mixed up with grievances against the British Government instead.

    It was a march to the British Embassy in reference to a class action on behalf of Malaysian Indians filed at The Royal Courts of Justice in London to sue the UK Government for US$4 trillion (US$1 million for every Malaysian Indian) for bringing Indians as indentured laborers into Malaya, “exploiting them for 150 years” and thereafter failing to protect the minority Indians’ rights in the Federal Constitution when independence was granted.

    Basically, my personal opinion is that this class action is a frivolous one in law having no prospect at all of an iota chance of winning in British Courts.

    Well I am aware that some of course would not agree with me but supposing I am 100% correct and both the organisers of last Sunday 25th Nov March as well as those who initiated the class action knew it.

    So what are the organisers really trying to do?

    By the Nov 25th March, did they want to take issue with the UK Government or the Malaysian government here or both? Did they march to ostensibly protest at the British Embassy just so as to have the oportunity to engage against Malaysian government and police on the streets of KL?

    Why do it in such a roundabout way using such a pretext of fighting the Brits to fight the Malysian government? If one’s grievances are legitimate – and I am sure that the grievances of Malaysian Indians are legitimate – what’s wrong with organising the 25th Nov march straight to Precinct 10 Putrajaya to present the grievances contained in August Memorandum instead of obliquely via a Petition to the British Embassy? And was the Petition eventually submitted to that embassy?

    The last time in Aug Hindraf could rally 1500 marchers ; this time allegedly 20,000! Why the exponential increase in number of marchers? Has the US$4 trillion (US$1 million for every Malaysian Indian) class action have got anything to do with the exponential increase in supporters compared to the 1500 in August bearing in mind the grievances contained in the memorandum in Aug and those in the Petition on 25th Nov are basically the same?

    What did the organisers tell its supporters and what hopes were raised? Did the organisers talk of rights or money here or both? I am a little confused.

    This has direct bearing on the methods of the organisers behind Hindraf which in turn may or may not have a direct bearing on the equation – and chances – whether they will be prepared to join forces with other groups for larger national causes relating to citizenry rights cutting across racial lines.

  71. #72 by DarkHorse on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 2:20 am

    “Yes, racism is everywhere but nowhere is it condoned or systemised as in Bolehland.” Godfather

    With all due respect, I think you have mixed up ‘racism’ and ‘racial discrimination’. The former is a belief and the former a practice. What is the difference?? You can stem out one but not the other. Guess which one?

  72. #73 by DarkHorse on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 2:36 am

    Lee Wang Yen, our PhD student in University of Cambridge would have argued that ‘racism’ is immoral but ‘racial discrimination’ is not only immoral but is illegal – except in Malaysia where racial discrimination has been institutionalized.

    It is worth reading again what he said:

    “An act in violation of a country’s law does not necessarily mean that the act is morally wrong or bad, because the law may be morally bad or wrong, or the implementation of the law may be unjust or flawed, thus making a particular ruling based on that law morally wrong or bad.”

    It is most unfortunate that Lee was forced to retreat from this blog.

  73. #74 by undergrad2 on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 4:32 am

    ““It was a march to the British Embassy in reference to a class action on behalf of Malaysian Indians filed at The Royal Courts of Justice in London to sue the UK Government for US$4 trillion (US$1 million for every Malaysian Indian) for bringing Indians as indentured laborers into Malaya, “exploiting them for 150 years” and thereafter failing to protect the minority Indians’ rights in the Federal Constitution when independence was granted.
    Basically, my personal opinion is that this class action is a frivolous one in law having no prospect at all of an iota chance of winning in British Courts. “ Jeffrey QC

    It would have made more sense had they named as defendants British plantation owners who owned vast tracts of rubber estates. They exploited Indian labor to make vast profits.
    Similar class action suits have been filed elsewhere including the United States and have failed. The real purpose of HINDRAF, I should think, is not to make a millionaire out of every Malaysian Indian but to bring international attention to the plight of Indians in Malaysia. However, it is not as if the international community does not know, or is not aware or have not heard about the discriminatory practices by the Malaysian government against minorities in its own country.

    The United Nations does not even consider anybody fleeing racial discrimination in search of a job and life anywhere as a “refugee” requiring support and protection. The 1951 Convention on Refugees (later expanded by the 1967 U.N. Protocol) does not consider racial discrimination as persecution. The “Hindraf Trio” do not qualify as “refugees fleeing persecution” – however, Lina Joy does (and she is not applying to go anywhere!).

    The other objective, I should think, is to unite the Indians. We forget that Indians are far from being a homogenous lot as the Japanese are. If it is any indication I heard only Tamil spoken during the demonstrations. What happened to the Gujeratis, Malayalees, Punjabis, Bengalis etc.? Why weren’t they there? (By the way I have never come across a poor Malayalee, a poor Gujerati, a poor Punjabi or a poor Bengali). It is, nevertheless, a deafening indictment of the MIC which has failed to represent the poor among its members who are predominantly Tamils.

    Having said that and, if I may say so, the Indians in Malaysia are their own worst enemy. Theirs is a case of “united we won’t and divided we fall”.

    But you are right, Jeffrey. It is a frivolous suit and will be struck out with costs if filed.

    And what’s with the Queen??

  74. #75 by lakshy on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 7:25 am

    But it has captured the hearts of many and has united many Indians. It will achieve its objectives, which perhaps you do not realize what it is yet.

  75. #76 by dawsheng on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 7:32 am

    “It is most unfortunate that Lee was forced to retreat from this blog.”

    I don’t think so. Judging from his previous post I know he is not “that type of person”. He is busy with his thesis lah.

  76. #77 by dawsheng on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 7:41 am

    “Kerajaan tidak gentar”

    No need for such a statement when you are not.

    “Perhimpunan Hindraf jelas bermotif politik” Najib

    But since when it is not about politics? It is all about politic Mr DPM Najib. You are clearly also “that type of person” lah! It is all about politics man…

  77. #78 by Libra2 on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 7:52 am

    Why to the British?
    A direct confrontation against the UMNO led government would be suicidal for the Indians. UMNO will turn the entire issue into a racial one, even ignoring the country’s future, so as to ensure their political survival. This racist party will then organize its own rally, perhaps going into 100s of thousands.
    To avoid this possible scenario, Hindraf took a detour and went for the British, but nevertheless drawing international attention to BN’s discriminatory policies and marginalization of the race.
    That was why UMNO and its police went down hard to crackdown the protest.
    The letter to the Brtish can now be thrown away as it has served its purpose.
    The Indians have spoken. Now the ball is in UMNO’s court. Keep on rattling its sabre and keris or address the problem.
    Its time UMNO to lock its Malay Supremacy ego in a closet and think of the country’s future.
    I disagree with Jeffrey that the organisers will give their personal bond on the rally. Why? UMNO will send its agent provocateurs to cause havoc.

  78. #79 by Godamn Singh on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 8:01 am

    “….drawing international attention to BN’s discriminatory policies and marginalization of the race.”

    Do you think the world cares??? Grow up!

  79. #80 by Jeffrey on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 8:04 am

    It is definitely a deafening indictment of the MIC.

    And I am sure you are right that the class action was intended to bring international attention to the plight of Indians in Malaysia. (It is to be noted that Bersih march also received international media attention including Al Jazeera coverage without a frivolous suit against anyone but just directed straight at the government).

    It however makes me wonder how the right of Malaysian Indians to address their legitimate grievances might be served and advanced on the international plane by being associated with the filing of what to me is a frivolous class action suit against Elizabeth Regina for actions in the past that has not the slightest chance of winning…

    No one doubts the integrity of Hindraf’s cause to seek redress for the underclass plight of Malaysian ethnic Indians, the seriousness of which, more so, should require correct analysis on the part of organizers and conceptualisers of how best to start the campaign.

    The question therefore arises whether Hindraf’s campaign was best initiated and premised upon a misplaced class action against the Queen of England that will provide Hindraf’s detractors within government or MIC or BN sympathizers at least two bullets to question and shoot at the rally/march to present the petition to the British Embassy : the first is they will question whether the successful mobilization of supporters were due to the lure of promised sums of money from the class suit (if believed to have a chance of succeeding) rather than just the moral fervour and indignation to seek redress of their citizens’ rights being side-lined if not trampled (since last August memorandum by Hindraf to the PM on the same subject of Indians’ plight attracted only a fraction of the crowd on November 25th); and second, as Rocky correctly albeit indirectly alluded to, whether Hindraf’s campaign against the wrong policies of the government, a very big part of which is its ethnic policies, could be fought effectively on the moral front by an equally ethnic based mobilization by Hindraf on November the 25th in isolation and separate from the legitimate grouses of all other non bumiputra communities in relation to the same subject. (Which is why as he urged, (to quote) “they need to find another way to move forward. maybe link it with a bigger issue, defending the poor of all races and defending the constitution. These are issue that can cut thru racial lines” – unquote).

    This is also not counting into consideration the confusion of some wondering why the march was proceeding to the British embassy to air the grouses whilst engaging simultaneously on another front against Malaysian police over grouses directed at the Malaysian government. Can’t they (Hindraf) just aim and shoot straight and fast (rather than oblique and roundabout) at the real target?

  80. #81 by Bigjoe on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 8:16 am

    What did I tell you about Abdullah turning right on this? The man has weak leadership and intellectual skills. He can’t see that he is trying to put the genie back in the bottle at a time when its not possible. He is mimicking Dr. M during his early days. But there are big difference and that is the internet and globalization. People are more aware and connected which Dr. M did not have to deal with.

    Hindraf is not going to be so stupid as to hold another demo without thinking of the possibility of ISA detention so warning of ISA is stupid as with the most newspaper fanning the Malay right-wing sentiments.

    Abdullah don’t get it that its not Hindraf he should be most afraid off by reaction by the right wing in his party. Hindraf will automatically trigger support of the right-wing Malay to support UMNO so there is no need to actually fan the right wing sentiment. Instead of jumping in front of the right-winger, his response should have been just to agree with whatever the right-wing demand, not doing it unnecessarily.

    By jumping ahead of the right-winger, he alienates the non-bumi and put himself in a corner. What if Hindraf ups the the ante with him. If he think they cannot outwit him, he is compounding his weak intellect with arrogance/apathy.

    If I were Hindraf, next time have a demo, I have all the temple chiefs, women and children up front and have the police drag them away for some free meals. ISA is worthless after that and pretty much his entire administration legitimacy..

  81. #82 by Jeffrey on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 8:17 am

    “..//…I disagree with Jeffrey that the organisers will give their personal bond on the rally. Why? UMNO will send its agent provocateurs to cause havoc..//… – Libra2

    You are right there. It is a real or I would say probable risk. Many years back a Singapore student leader dissident Tan Wah Piow was arrested for creating a riot (when he addressed some labor unions) when the authorities allegedly planted their agent provocateurs to cause a ruckus by breaking a few tables and chairs in the meeting giving immediate excuse to arrest him.

    Such underhand tactics pose a very serious problem extending beyond the issue of “personal bond”. I can imagine that the government could do a “houdini?” by pretending to be liberal and grant the police permits to so called uphold article 10(1)(b) of the Constitution on right to assembly only to plant some agent provocateurs amongst the crowd of demonstrators to throw stones or some objects causing hurt to the police/FRU giving the required pretext/excuse to immediately crack down and arrest the organisers Operation Lallang style. In context as long as demonstrations are resorted to, there is always this real risk of how they could put an end to these demonstrations based on such trumped up events by agent provocateurs. :)

  82. #83 by Jeffrey on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 8:26 am

    Libra2, I think you’re likely right about Hindraf’s intended strategy – and definitely so on the part of the agent provocateurs – though regarding strategy, it is opened, as I said, to other interpretations. :)

  83. #84 by Jeffrey on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 8:32 am

    Big Joe, I think deliberately putting women and children up front in a demonstration and in harm’s way is not such a good idea.

  84. #85 by Bigjoe on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 8:58 am

    I did not say put the women and children in harms way, I said have them being taken away by the police. The temple chiefs can be the first line and take the brunt of the beating. The police are not stupid enough to harm the women and children which were also present during last week demo..

  85. #86 by Jeffrey on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 9:25 am

    The latest updates on the Hindraf’s Nov 25th gathering per today’s news (The Star):

    · (Front page) The PM said he would use the ISA against street demonstrations.

    · Hindraf not only disclaimed affiliation with any political party but also disclaimed the rally of Nov 25th organized by it : Quote of report on what Hindraf’s secretary V K Regu said : “He also said it was wrongfully claimed that the gathering on Sunday was a Hindraf organized rally as it never sent out any form of invitation for the gathering and even the SMS messages calling for the mass gathering did not originate from the movement. He said the publicity actually came from statements by the police and the Government against Hindraf’s decision to hand over the memorandum” to the British High Commission.

    · The British High Commission said that it did not receive any petition from Hindraf. British High Commissioner to Malaysia Boyd McCleary said: “We offered to accept the petition on Sunday but it was not delivered”.

    · Minister in PM’s Department Nazri Aziz said K Devamany should not be left off the hooks for breaking ranks. He asked, “Should we let Robin Hood of the hook just because he’s a hero? He robed the rich and gave to the poor but he was still breaking the law…Should we allow people to be popular among the community by breaking ranks? Or should we consider the welfare of the whole BN?” He reiterated his stand that if Devamany had disputed his own party, he should resign from the MIC.

    · The MIC top brass have however come out in defence of K Devamany, with Samy Vellu saying that “what Devamany had meant to say was that the government was not doing enough for the Indian community. And here comes the classic spin from Samy – “ Policy failure is different from not doing enough. Devamany meant to say that the government was not doing enough…but everyone is not doing enough..”

    “But everyone is not doing enough..”????? :)

  86. #87 by AhPek on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 9:34 am

    I don’t for one moment believe that the organisers of this HINDRAF movement think they would stand any chance at all of success in their lawsuit against the British Government.Their intention is certainly not the 4 trillion USD, more so it is the drawing of world attention of the plight of marginalisation of the Indians on what better platform than the British Court.For that I think it is a marvellous strategy, most brilliant.After all Malaysia is not so well known as Singapore and this coming court case will certainly have the effect of getting Malaysia known everywhere.
    The other point is they (the Tamils) must have felt that for the last 50 years MIC has not done anything to improve the lot of the Tamils and it is about time to tell Samy that they might vote en bloc the opposition party.They have after all been the most ardent as well as the most loyal supporter of BN all these years.This is also a very telling point to advance their cause.
    The Indians who vote for opposition are the other Indians like the Gujeratis,Malayalees,Punjabis and the Bengalis.They are indeed a small by comparison and most of them are not MIC members. In terms of vote value they don’t count that much and after all their votes go to the opposition. It is the Tamil votes that counts and
    their votes are crucial as swing votes that can swing the opposition party to victory in any mixed constituency.
    Maybe as Jeffrey says the lawsuit against Britain is frivolous but the impact they have on a world wide scale is certainly greater than that of BERSIH once the court case gets into swing.

  87. #88 by Jeffrey on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 9:37 am

    “…Should we allow people to be popular among the community by breaking ranks?…” – Datuk Seri Nazri Aziz.

    Because they can’t break ranks dictated by UMNO (without being accused to be “Robin Hood”, that is why the component parties cannot serve and have not served – indeed they have sold out – the interest of their respective communities which they pledge to serve under our communal political system. :)

  88. #89 by undergrad2 on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 9:42 am

    In the United States in recent years 35 million descendants of black slaves filed class- action lawsuits against various American corporations asking not only for unspecified monetary damages but also recognition.

    In the U.S. it was alleged slavery stigmatized, raped, murdered and exploited millions of Africans through no fault of their own.
    Can the same be said in the case of Indians in Malaysia?
    “Indentured labor” involves agreement to work in a British colony for a land owner in return for passage. Indians were not brought in from India as slaves in slave ships, with both legs shackled to chains and forced to work in rubber plantations and on death railways.

    In fact later waves of Indian migrants came voluntarily in search of a better life and they were drawn from the professional and the middle class from the higher castes.

    I do not see any parallel between the two i.e. slaves from Africa and indentured laborers from southern India. One could make similar argument involving the current exploitation of cheap labor from Indonesia, Bangladesh, Burma etc The latter were brought in by ‘coyotes’ to work at such low rates of pay and living in some cases in conditions reminiscent of the time when slavery was the rule.

    Orang Asli, indigenous tribes in Sarawak and Sabah and Malays probably have stronger reasons for filing such class-action law suits against the U.K. government for destroying forever the demographics of their country with its “open door policy” towards immigration.

    What say Jeffrey QC and AhPek and Godfather?

  89. #90 by undergrad2 on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 9:44 am

    Further, what of the statute of limitations?

  90. #91 by oknyua on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 11:03 am

    “Orang asli, indigenous tribes…” undergrad2.

    We tried to wrestle back Sarawak and Sabah out of Malaysia. A few landed in Kamnunting; I don’t have to go down the names. The points of contentions for us: (1) Corruptions at state levels appear to be supported and protected by KL. (2) Resources from the two states helped to finance the excesses of KL. (3) The point of religions. (4) Governor/Chief Minister issue. (5) Revenues. I can’t remember all the points.

    Unlike Hindraf, the Sarawak indigenous are fragmented lot (divide/rule), no small thanks to the former Energy Minister. So what class action for a divided group? Ask the Deputy Foriegn minister, Joe. So Joe, where are all the fine ideas you have 20 years ago?

  91. #92 by H2S on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 11:17 am

    i dont understant 1 things.we indians and chinies come to malaysia with almost nothing and in malaysia we did not have land o anything.right.but currents in 2007 according to the gorv they are still helping the malays with this bumiputra thing because they are poor.if u think logicly they had land gorv support and what not in this country but they are still more poor then us.according to the gorv we indians and chinies are richer then malays hold a big part in the econ of malaysia.since gorv say we have a big part in the econ that means we indians and chinies did more then malays for advance this country to a very respected 1.After that also we dont get equal rights in this country.just something to think about.what has gone wrong. Indians and Chinies do so much for the country get so little.

  92. #93 by oknyua on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 11:18 am

    I’ve just read Star. Front page, AAB threatening Hindraf with ISA.

    What is this AAB head? Is he really that st…id? You go ahead and use your ISA and you would forever be remembered [deleted]. How could a PM at this age, 2007, still think like he is in the 60’s? It just cannot enter my mind.

  93. #94 by Godfather on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 11:22 am

    The threat to use ISA only solidifies our belief that the thieves are really threatened and worried, and now they need to use all means at their disposal to get us to back down.

    When the backs of the thieves are against the wall, and when they realise that to lose against the public could result in jail terms for them, they will use whatever means necessary to quell the rebellion.

  94. #95 by undergrad2 on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 11:54 am

    There is a downside to the recent HINDRAF demonstrations.

    It is most unfortunate that the lack of overt support given by the Opposition parties – albeit HINDRAF appears to be a loose conglomeration of various groups said not to be linked to any of the poitical parties – makes the demonstration by Indians against the UMNO (read: Malay) dominated government look like it is a racial affair.

    I believe it is a big mistake in terms of electoral strategy as Malays now would look upon this demonstration as being anti-Malay rather than anti-BN and UMNO dominated government.

  95. #96 by Public Freedom on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 11:58 am

    The Men Of Steel, These Men Of Power
    Are Losing Control By The Hour

    This Is The Time, This Is The Place
    So We Look For The Future
    But There’s Not Much Love To Go Around
    Tell Me Why This Is A Land Of Confusion

    This Is The World We Live In
    And These Are The Hands We’re Given
    Use Them And Let’s Start Trying
    To Make It A Place Worth Living In


  96. #97 by Godfather on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 12:05 pm

    I wouldn’t worry too much about the statute of limitations because if there is a suit, it will not be against Britain, but against the Government of Malaysia for systematically introducing and inducing immigrants from Pakistan, Indonesia, Bangladesh, India, the Middle East and Africa to the detriment of native Malaysians.

    These are fairly recent events and are still continuing.

    I think the issue is that whilst I am sure we (or the natives) have locus standi to bring such an action, I am almost certain that the courts will deny any action given that they are totally subservient to UMNO. Furthermore, those who bring the action will be subject to harrassment by the enforcement agencies who are also subservient to UMNO, and will be subject to ridicule in the mainstream press as these are also undoubtedly subservient to Zainuddeen “Goebbels” Maideen.

  97. #98 by Godfather on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 12:10 pm


    What you are implying is that the DAP and PAS should come out in support of Hindraf and that will eliminate the ‘Indianness” of the rally and make it more of a multiracial disaffection for the den of thieves.

    I think Kit has been in support of Hindraf all along, but we haven’t heard a squeak from PAS. Can someone contact PAS and seek their support ?

  98. #99 by Godfather on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 12:18 pm

    I posted this on another thread after seeing a stark black and white picture in a foreign newspaper last week:

    “That black and white picture of a Jewish family (parents and two kids) holding whatever belongings in their hands and walking away under the watchful eyes of the Gestapo – this should haunt those of you who think that the downward spiral of personal liberty or the continuing marginalisation of minorities can be tolerated or accomodated. One reader even said that he currently lives in comfort and has enough to eat, unlike his relatives in India, so why the fuss ?

    Such inability to worry about the future in the face of UMNO antics over the years is indeed myopic. Yes, look at the Jewish family as a Chinese or an Indian family, and look at the Gestapo as UMNO – and history will repeat itself in Bolehland.”

  99. #100 by Bigjoe on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 1:30 pm

    Steven Gan has a good piece on Malaysiakini about who is to be blamed for the BN’s predicament that culiminates with Hindraf rally http://www.malaysiakini.com/editorials/75321
    Basically he blames it in on Abudullah and his famous SIL.

    Hindraf is why the likes of SIL must not only make it up UMNO, he must be stopped now. With people like SIL, Hindraf-like rallies will only get worst. Compared to the likes of Zaid Ibrahim and Imtiaz Sanwar, SIL is a prodigal son, unworthy to inherit the what was created by Tunku, Razak and Hussein Onn or even Dr. M. SIL is more like his father-in-law then most people think. He may be have different style but his intellect compared to his the real smart ones of his peer is no different than his father-in-law and his peers.

  100. #101 by AhPek on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 3:09 pm

    Whilst there might be a difference between black slaves bought and forcibly taken against their will and shipped to work in the cotton fields of America and indentured labour from India who agreed to come to Malaya to work the rubber trees in the British plantation, both of these cases are really that of plain exploitation of human labour.In both cases also the living conditions are downright atrocious.Perhaps in the eyes of the law it can be argued that indentured labour is not exploitative and it’s like in the case of ‘willing buyer and willing seller’.Of course if one were to compare in legal terms, it is fair to say Hindraf’s case of suing the British Government is frivolous.Of course a stronger case would be the case of orang asli and the natives of Sabah and Sarawak if they were to sue the British Government for destroying the demographics of their land by bringing in indentured labour in large numbers to work their tin mines,rubber plantation and oil palm estate and worst still when they left the Reid Commission did not recognise their status in independent Malaya and therefore their interest is totally ignored.Their case if brought out would certainly be more valid.But, undergrad2, your puzzle over the statute of limitations is valid I think.
    In the case of a property for example like that of a collapsed bridge
    for instance, the statute of limitation for discovered injury or damage to property is generally 3 years I think. The 3 years statute does not begin to run until the plaintiff is aware of the injury and its negligent cause.In the case of native land tenure and native rights I am not too sure whether the statute of limitations apply.I can only venture to say no if I take the example of the maoris of New Zealand.For years the Maoris have been claiming fishing rights over the seas surrounding the country as part of their customary rights.It was only in 1992 the Maoris won their fishing rights thro THE DEED Of SETTLEMENT in the court.Today in New Zealand they are the main player in NZ fisheries and aquaculture industry.

  101. #102 by Jeffrey on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 3:21 pm

    …//…The 3 years statute does not begin to run until the plaintiff is aware of the injury and its negligent cause…//…AhPek

    So can it be said that it starts running from the time Hindraf is aware and being the first to make a demand based on class action to UK for redress of the Indian predicament?

  102. #103 by shortie kiasu on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 3:56 pm

    It is not only shame on Chan Kong Choy for whatever reason being absent from the scene, more so it is a shame on the bunch of “leaders” at MCA, like the Chinese proverb: ” Tiger head, snake tail (literal translation)”, most aptly described the whole bunch of “leaders” at MCA!

  103. #104 by Jeffrey on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 4:07 pm

    AhPek, FYI, I was in New Zealand quite recently and learned that the Maoris are not only claiming fishing rights over the seas surrounding the country but the skies above the lands (and possibly the seas) over which they have customary rights, meaning they have first right to take advantage of industry related to telecommunication, satellite and broadband! :)

  104. #105 by AhPek on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 4:24 pm

    Terrific if that is the case, Jeffrey. I am thrilled to bits to know that! This is an example of how minority should be protected and morally as well as rightfully so because:
    (a) Their numbers are exremely small less than 10% of population.If nothing is done they will be swallowed up by the larger population by sheer weight of numbers.
    (b) They are weak financially.
    (c) they have no political power although there are a fixed number of maori seats given to represent maori interest in Parliment.
    (d) they also have no military power.

  105. #106 by AhPek on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 6:44 pm

    And ,of course, lest I forgot, the Maoris are the first people of New Zealand.For these 5 reasons it is only right that they be protected and I think all Kiwis support this whole heartedly.
    In the case of Malaysia the minority and even the orang asli have to protect the MALAYS from being ‘PUPUS’.How laughable???

  106. #107 by undergrad2 on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 8:38 pm

    “….it is fair to say Hindraf’s case of suing the British Government is frivolous..” AhPek

    Unfortunately, the court does not need to address the issue of ‘fairness’ of the lawsuit to find if a case meets the legal definition of a ‘frivolous’ claim. It is an issue over legal merit of the case and whether it is likely to succeed at all.

    Interesting observations by AhPek.

  107. #108 by undergrad2 on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 8:45 pm

    “I wouldn’t worry too much about the statute of limitations..” Godfather

    The problem over the statute of limitations could be solved by ‘equitable tolling’. If African Americans could make their case about something which took place over some 150 years ago, what is 50 years?? You might ask. But the HINDRAF suit if filed and when filed faces, in my opinion, major obstacles which make the issue of the statement of limitations almost irrelevant to the outcome.

  108. #109 by cheng on soo on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 9:19 pm

    get it right hindraf is claiming from Brit. govt, that they (hindu) are badly treated by past n present govt, NOT by Malay, hope no comment from any wise person will make it a racial issue.
    v want a better govt for all ! , In multi racial society, wise shall not say anything or do anything (like waving offensive weapon and threaten to soak in other races blood) to cause racial fear / hate against one another, this surely does no good for all !

  109. #110 by ktteokt on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 9:27 pm

    The announcement by the PM today that the NEP is to be continued indefinitely showed intention of the BN government to continue with their wrong-doings and their stubbornness in listening to the rakyat. After nearly 40 years of implementing the NEP, these group of good-for-nothings still cannot stand on their own feet and need to continue sucking on the “milk bottles”. Its the greatest shame, robbing from the other races just to keep this group of gfn going!!!!!

  110. #111 by shaolin on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 11:12 pm

    ktteokt & AhPek,

    ‘Minority Groups and even Orang Asli must Protect ‘The
    Malays’ from being PUPUS…!!


  111. #112 by Godfather on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 12:55 am


    Can you imagine the government filing a defence based on the statute of limitations ?

  112. #113 by limkamput on Friday, 30 November 2007 - 6:41 pm

    ///To keep reminding the government the need for good governance to me is a wasted effort./// limkamput

    Hear that?? YB Kit.

    You’re wasting your time. You should stop blogging. Close shop and retire! You’re also stupid like that Jeffrey.

    we are what we repeatedly do. it is confirmed that you are more than stupid.

  113. #114 by limkamput on Friday, 30 November 2007 - 6:45 pm

    It is not like those in government today do not know what constitutes good governance and ethical behaviour. Our parents, societal values and religions would have taught us that. To keep reminding the government the need for good governance to me is a wasted effort. this is what i wrote earlier.

    I have been in government service (MINDEF) for some twenty plus years and I can confirm that we do understand. So please do not hurl insults at our intelligence. this was your comment.

    I suggest you go for grade one english class first before you come here.

  114. #115 by limkamput on Friday, 30 November 2007 - 6:49 pm

    The world has changed??? Which hole did you crawl out from?

    Hello colonel, i think others have helped me to answer you. Colonel my foot. You are not even qualified to be private.

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