Letter
I am a medical doctor who was educated overseas and worked in Australia for several years and recently decided to return to Malaysia to serve the country.
As a professional working overseas I heard about the ‘Program bagi mengalakkan warganegara Malaysia yang berpakaran yang bekerja di luar negara pulang ke Malaysia’ and therefore applied for it. I was very disappointed when they rejected my application on the grounds that it was sent after I returned to Malaysia. Apparently it was meant to be sent whilst I was still in Australia.
I find this a very poor excuse given the fact that Malaysia is trying to lure back its citizens to work for them. It discourages professionals such as me from having to bear the burden to return but not have any perks or encouraging incentives. Furthermore, my parents bore my exorbitant medical tuition fees and I did not receive any governmental loans whatsoever. The “least” is something anyone would expect.
Besides that, it took me a great deal of an effort to locate the abovementioned application form which was hidden in the catacombic archives of one of the governmental websites. Talk about purposeful inconvenience or perhaps voluntary neglect.
I can see why many of my colleagues are hesitant to return and serve the government given the unimpressive, unattractive attitude and to top it off the obvious suboptimal remuneration and working conditions. Now, thankfully I still have the option to return to Australia and am reconsidering my intentions to continue here thanks to the above. Job well done in luring professionals back.
Disappointed DR.
#1 by limkamput on Saturday, 30 January 2010 - 11:07 pm
No, you did not return to serve the country. You returned because it is convenient and expedient for you to do so now.
Sdr Lim, I think it is counter productive to continue publish letter of this nature. It shows who we are: arrogant, selfish and egoistical. Medical profession is a demand and supply issue, it is not solely a Malaysian issue.
#2 by tan_ah_pek on Sunday, 31 January 2010 - 1:03 am
jeez… for whatever reason, isn’t it a good thing to optimize processes and make citizen’s life easier?
#3 by katdog on Sunday, 31 January 2010 - 1:26 am
He! He! Simple solution.
Go back to and get a job in overseas. Then apply again.
The medical profession is in high demand in many countries including Singapore. I’m sure it wouldn’t be difficult for you to get a position.
This shows the sheer stupidity of the ‘brain gain’ program by the govt. When other countries talk about brain gain, they usually mean luring foreign expats to bring to their country their knowledge and skills. In Malaysia, our brain gain is trying to lure back locals who have migrated to work overseas.
That’s NOT brain gain. That’s more like anti brain drain. If we were really brain gain-ing, we would be retaining our top talent while adding top brains from other countries.
#4 by pwcheng on Sunday, 31 January 2010 - 2:19 am
Believe me all those hoo hah about attracting the brains to return and attracting non Malays to the government are only a stage show. From experience I think I believe what Disappointed Doctor says.
They will blah this blah that as though they are serious in getting the country out of the ruts, by telling that they will do everything possible to gain back the brains (cleverly saying that people migrate because the salary are more attractive rather than apportion the blame on UMNO’s racist policies.) It is well proven that if you take up their offer they will give you all sort of obstacles. Same goes with scholarship and at one time the JPA was giving out loans for overseas studies and because of the lack of publicity they will say that the non Malays did not apply but when you did apply they will twist and turn their policies to void your application. I had a first hand experience on this when my sons applied for the loan and I am still having all those letters as living proof. Again the same goes for blaming the non Malays as the one not interested in joining the civil service (and they will also provide the reason that outside the salaries are more attractive). If anybody who has attended the PSD interview they will know what I am talking about. During my time they even tear up the applications of the non Bumis.
And that is UMNO and as long as they are in power, things will never change for they know what they had done and they realize they can only hinge on Malay votes to survive and they will do everything to remain power.
That is is the face of UMNO. They will always give their reasons and blame others when we all know that at least 80% of all these happenings are due to their xenophobia policies. They are extremely corrupted and they will blame on the givers. Even now the Allah issue, they had shifted the blame to others. These are real funky. They are extremely good at staging and it is no wonder that the great DR M will say that everything not to his taste are staged including Anwar’s black eye.
#5 by boh-liao on Sunday, 31 January 2010 - 2:45 am
A smart lo-kun fell 4 this brain gain trap, tsk tsk ….
Where is your brain lah
R u a registered voter?
Next time, come back home 2 VOTE 2 change loh
#6 by ShiokGuy on Sunday, 31 January 2010 - 2:57 am
Doctor,
Do you know the real reason behind? Off cos we do! Do you really belief the rejection is because of your application date and time?
Look at the mirror and see who you are.
#7 by johnnypok on Sunday, 31 January 2010 - 3:22 am
Emulate Mah Mak Teh and change your race and religion first. Maybe you are welcome. But if you are good enough, Singapore will welcome you with opne arms. Bodohland is only for HP6 and uncivilised and handicapped people.
#8 by monsterball on Sunday, 31 January 2010 - 6:35 am
Outwardly……UMNO must be seen and heard to be concern and will do their best to get all Malaysians…especially professionals…back to work in our country.
Everything said…must sound sensible and logical to young voters..to support UMNO.
If you have lived as long as Lim Kit Siang …Karpal and …like me…you will have hundreds of evidences………that UMNO is a racist party…playing double standards ..even to his own race…….what more to other races.
Die hard racists like Mahathir…love to see Chinese get lost or bow to UMNO as their ruler.
And we are dealing with UMNO BARU…belonging to Mahathir…not the original…UMNO..established by Tunku.
Love Tunku….vote UMNO BARU out.
#9 by monsterball on Sunday, 31 January 2010 - 7:30 am
I think DAP and PAS leaders must pressurized Anwar to sack Zul …..before judging how bad UMNO is.
Anwar seems to have no balls or is too smart to juggle..jingle and jangle for keDAILan advantages..ignoring party members dis-satisfactions….making him….somewhat a dictator too.
Misunderstands will be blown up..due to his indecisive moods.
#10 by monsterball on Sunday, 31 January 2010 - 7:39 am
Anwar told Zul to shut up…Zul defied Anwar.
What is Anwar…a leader or no balls man?
Malaysians are not impressed with to much cunning politicians decisions.
We have enough with UMNO/BN.
And Anwar must never forget…he works for tax payers.
He may have RM billions supported by foreigners….but he still depend on Malaysian voters.
So we say…to Anwar..mean what you say and say what you mean.
One who defies his leadership…..and challenging Zaid Ibrahim…a true Malaysian…must be sacked.
Why delay?
Zul is a racist….so similar to UMNO member…mentalities and behaviors.
#11 by cto on Sunday, 31 January 2010 - 8:03 am
limkamput on Saturday, 30 January 2010 – 11:07 pm wrote
No, you did not return to serve the country. You returned because it is convenient and expedient for you to do so now.
Sdr Lim, I think it is counter productive to continue publish letter of this nature. It shows who we are: arrogant, selfish and egoistical. Medical profession is a demand and supply issue, it is not solely a Malaysian issue.
—————–
I am not sure that I agree with your criticism of Disapointed DR. “Serving the country” could mean many different things. For example, simply by working and paying taxes, one is essentially serving the country. So I do not see anything wrong with his statement that s/he choosed to come back and serve the country. S/he never said that her/his intention is completely altruistic.
Also, I see nothing wrong in publishing such letters. Is exposing the deficiencies or hypocrisy of the system arrogant, selfish and egoistical?
#12 by yhsiew on Sunday, 31 January 2010 - 8:23 am
I was very disappointed when they rejected my application on the grounds that it was sent after I returned to Malaysia.
=======================================================
This shows that the government is not sincere in luring back Malaysian professionals working overseas.
Malaysia is destined to be a DONOR of professionals, specialists and experts to other countries due to the government’s aggressive pursuit of a monoethnic policy in running the country.
#13 by yhsiew on Sunday, 31 January 2010 - 8:56 am
I was very disappointed when they rejected my application…..
==========================================================
The doctor is a victim of ethnocentrism and ethnonationalism practiced in this country.
#14 by pulau_sibu on Sunday, 31 January 2010 - 9:14 am
where in the world do you have this kind of reasoning ‘to serve the country’? in most cases, the person decided to come back to serve because he/she can make more money and gain more benefit from what is he/she is currently making. Forget about serving if money is not the first issue. you should not think that BN will be thankful to you for serving the country.
I think it is more important for this country to have the first rate politicians among those coming back from overseas, in order to replace these corrupted incompetent local politicians. That would be the real service to the country
#15 by limkamput on Sunday, 31 January 2010 - 9:22 am
Cto, I admit I am a little harsh on this guy. But please, if the rule says you apply before you come back, then follow the rule. S/he is a professional, s/he should know the rule. S/he can always find out, ask, research, and consult.
By the way, if one is just an ordinary medical doctor, that person is not a pakar as defined. You don’t get to enjoy the privileges and incentives normally made available to those defined as experts. So find out where you stand first before creating lots of hoo hah.
Due to shortage of doctors, the government has imposed compulsory service for all doctors wanting to practise in this country. This has advantages as well as disadvantages. At least all doctors, whether well-trained or half baked (it is not farfetched for me to say that many “doctors” particularly those from devious medical schools are very poorly trained), are given employment when they graduate. And where else is the best place to gain practical experience other than government hospitals. Doctors can complain all they want, but it is the government that provided them with further practical training during their initial years.
Do you know why the housemanship is now two years instead of one? Because lots of them tak boleh pakai. Have you seen their qualifications before they joined medical schools? Yes, 7, 7, 8, or 8,7, 8 or 8, 8, 7 for Biology, Chemistry and Physics respectively. I hope some doctors belonging to this category are reading it. Fair enough, i have not come across such a medical school from Australia. But certainly lots of them are from Russia, Indonesia, Egypt and India.
#16 by undertaker888 on Sunday, 31 January 2010 - 9:31 am
simple. Your application form did not state the correct skincolor and religions. And you are not stupid enough for them. This country runs by the p@ri@hs are very afraid of people with intelligence. They just want robots, especially those umnobots type from planet NEPticon.
#17 by kbong on Sunday, 31 January 2010 - 9:41 am
‘Disappointed DR’ believed the government’s sincerity in the “Program bagi mengalakkan warganegara Malaysia yang berpakaran yang bekerja di luar negara pulang ke Malaysia” most likely because he/she talks to and listens to his/her relatives and friends who are most likely BN people and supporters. He/she may be smart enough to be a doctor but is still naive. In any case I agree with ‘limkamput’ who thinks that he did not return to serve the country but because it was convenient and expedient for him at that time. Either did not like life in the other country or could not get a work permit.
#18 by waterfrontcoolie on Sunday, 31 January 2010 - 9:57 am
Well, if you’re smart, next time please ask the Doc. to see his credential first before being subjected to his expertise. maybe,as consumers we can demand to see it hanging outside their clinics[ of course you can’t if you want free service from Liow]
Then, what about those Docs who are ‘brilliantly” qualified but attack their patients exactly like those vultures who are only interested in the bellies being filled? On this issue of brain-drain, I think this blog has enough say on it. But to be easily conned by “sloganeering” propaganda, I would advise the writer to be smarter the next round, if there is one!!
#19 by ktteokt on Sunday, 31 January 2010 - 10:13 am
All this talk about recognizing the “brain drain” in Malaysia is just lip service. They know of such brain drain and they know why professionals and capable people leave Malaysia or refuse to return to the nation to serve its people!
Why should these bright sparks return home to their native land just to be treated as Class#2 citizens, when they can become one in other countries but where they can earn more and be subjected to less mental agony! Imagine being treated as Class#2 citizens in your own country while you continue to pay exhorbitant taxes just to be wasted by the government!
If at all the BN government is sincere in luring back these brains from abroad, it has much groundwork to complete and among them, the abolishment of the differentiation between Bumiputras and Non-bumiputras should be one of top priority! As long as this differentiation remains, no right-thinking non-bumiputra Malaysians who has brains will buy the crap put forth by the BN government!
Just how many non-bumiputras with brains wants to come home to his motherland just to be OVERRIDDEN by someone who is not as brainy but who got to where he was just because he is a BUMIPUTRA?
#20 by boh-liao on Sunday, 31 January 2010 - 10:28 am
Lokun, not so hot now lah, a dime a dozen, susah nak cari makan oh
Ai say, 1M’sia u know got sooo many medic schools producing lokun like lemmings
Many families in 1M’sia hv at least 1 lokun 1
Where got enuf jobs – u no C loktor no work as loktor but became canORnot space tourist
1Klinik also tak pakai loktor, NR trusted HA lah
Want 2 serve d nation, better come back 2 b politician mah
#21 by cto on Sunday, 31 January 2010 - 10:35 am
limkamput on Sunday, 31 January 2010 – 9:22 am wrote
Cto, I admit I am a little harsh on this guy. But please, if the rule says you apply before you come back, then follow the rule. S/he is a professional, s/he should know the rule. S/he can always find out, ask, research, and consult.
————–
No argument from me about the technicality surrounding the rule. In fact, I would venture to guess that s/he would readily admit that it is definitely better to apply before returning.
It is now a question of who needs who and perhaps who needs who more. If Malaysia does not need the services of this dr and this dr does not need to work in Malaysia, then I would strongly suggest to the good doctor that s/he returns to Australia. It is a win-win.
If Malaysia wants the services of this doctor and this doctor wants to remain and serve the country, then does it really make sense to create a lose-lose situation simply because of a technicality issue? I would suggest not.
#22 by cemerlang on Sunday, 31 January 2010 - 11:45 am
You can employ doctors from as far as the Middle East ( only God knows why ) who does not speak good English, does not speak any local language for sure, does not have the Malaysian way ( whatever way is that ) of treating patients, was not educated the Malaysian way and in many ways is not a Malaysian. But here he is, treating a Malaysian. You trust him enough for that. Why is the trust less for a Malaysian who was welcomed in another country and is trusted to treat the other country’s citizens ? Talk about professionalisms, ethics, etiquettes, morals, responsibilities, blah blah blah… Now who is reality and in actual fact lacks those ? He or she wants to come back. For God’s sake, let him or her come home for whatever reasons which are in many ways better than the contract officers. You only have to say yes. If it is that difficult, why ? And if the hospitals and the common clinics have no more vacancies, there is still the 1Malaysia clinics. People first. Performance now. Wouldn’t it be great to have all the doctors there and each patient will get to see them as soon as they arrive at the clinic doors instead of waiting until the disease gets worse ? Isn’t that your dream ? Why can’t your dream be a reality NOW ?
#23 by Jong on Sunday, 31 January 2010 - 11:59 am
Of course the BN Govt has never been sincere about it, don’t we all know that?!! It’s all rhetorics. It’s once again proved after 52 years, government policies are never seriously implemented with proper follow-through actions.
Ask those at top BN leadership, bet you they are all blur to what’s going on, their right not knowing what their left is doing. It’s obvious their BTN graduate of “little napoleons” have always been busy at work, ..sabotaging every BN govt policies, no?
#24 by frankyapp on Sunday, 31 January 2010 - 12:05 pm
UMNO stands for united malay national organisation. The name itself is racist.It’s self-explanatory,hence that’s it. Non-malays must be aware that Umno is using the BN as a kind of fixed deposit to stay in power to manupulate the malay’s sentiments to further obtaining and gaining more power and wealth not for the general good of the malay folk but particularly for Umnoputras and cronies.In short though UMNO represented the malays but in reality it always represented the interest of its leaders,putras ,warlords and cronies. TDM admitted it and I qoute ” I’m happy to see one malay millionaire in the midst of thousands of us ” un-qoute.
#25 by boh-liao on Sunday, 31 January 2010 - 12:40 pm
Yeah lah, how 2 expect doctors from Middle East 2 speak any local language
U sicko, got doctor 2 C, how lucky oredi, b grateful 2 BN gomen loh
Nevermind nanti doctor no understand u n cut off yr left ball when actually right ball sick lah
#26 by limkamput on Sunday, 31 January 2010 - 1:04 pm
I think most of you got it all wrong. The issue is not this particular doctor can not come back to serve. If he wants, he can start tomorrow. This issue is he wanted to be treated as “pakar” to be given incentives and privileges over and above normal pay. For that, he has to be assessed accordingly. That is why i don’t like this particular letter, all half truth, half fiction.
#27 by tenaciousB on Sunday, 31 January 2010 - 2:02 pm
The Author states “I was very disappointed when they rejected my application on the grounds that it was sent after I returned to Malaysia. Apparently it was meant to be sent whilst I was still in Australia.”
The above clearly states that he/she is qualified for the incentives but rejected because he/she did not send the application from abroad instead when they returned. I find this ridiculous because how does it matter if you send an application from Australia or malaysia ? and to be penalised for sending it from malaysia ? whatever it is, he/she is a returning professional and the profession is at a dire shortage at present isn’t that so?
The other thing is, the author mentions he/she is able to return to Australia to work. He/She obviously was smart enough not to burn their bridges. I would encourage the Doc to go back to Aussie as this government will never appreciate his/her good intentions. It is a loss for this country to repel quality workforce but what can we expect from a lay government?
Also, the programme was established in 2001 to attract not just doctors but professionals from all fields including business executives from abroad. The incentives the doc is mentioning are things like ability to bring 2 cars back, gain PR for their spouses, exempted from taxes for 2 years. These are fair enough given the fact the poor doc has to resettle in malaysia from australia.
#28 by tenaciousB on Sunday, 31 January 2010 - 2:19 pm
The Author states “I was very disappointed when they rejected my application on the grounds that it was sent after I returned to Malaysia. Apparently it was meant to be sent whilst I was still in Australia.”
The above clearly states that he/she is qualified for the incentives but rejected because he/she did not send the application from abroad instead when they returned. I find this ridiculous because how does it matter if you send an application from Australia or malaysia ? and to be penalised for sending it from malaysia ? whatever it is, he/she is a returning professional and the profession is at a dire shortage at present isn’t that so?
The other thing is, the author mentions he/she is able to return to Australia to work. He/She obviously was smart enough not to burn their bridges. I would encourage the Doc to go back to Aussie as this government will never appreciate his/her good intentions.
Also, the programme was established in 2001 to attract not just doctors but professionals from all fields including business executives from abroad. The incentives the doc is mentioning are things like ability to bring 2 cars back, gain PR for their spouses, exempted from taxes for 2 years. These are fair enough given the fact the poor doc has to resettle in malaysia from australia. It is a loss for this country to repel quality workforce but what can we expect from a lay government?
#29 by katdog on Sunday, 31 January 2010 - 3:43 pm
– author has already worked several years overseas and already has practical experience.
– author was rejected purely on procedural grounds in that he was not physically overseas when he applied.
I think the whole point of the letter is to illustrate the efforts of the government brain gain program is nothing more than ‘melepaskan batuk di tangga’.
You would offer people tons of incentives to come back when a person is living overseas . But if a person comes back by their own accord, you tell them, i am only interested in those working overseas. You can go ‘eat yourself’, i don’t care.
So if the author were to return to Australia (or maybe take a trip to Singapore) and apply again, suddenly the govt will be rushing head over heels to provide incentives to return?
This just shows to ‘stone age’ thinking of many of our leaders. They still think we live in the 60’s where migration was a very difficult thing to do. They haven’t yet realized that travel and migration is getting easier and easier as globalization occurs.
There is no concept of incentives to retain people. Why? Because they think you can’t leave. They think Malaysia is such a perfect country that only the traitors who hate the country want to leave. So why bother to offer incentives for these people to remain? ‘Kalau tak suka, keluar!” is their message.
That’s why the whole brain gain program is a joke. Why bother going overseas offering incentives to woo back Malaysians when you can’t even retain them in the first place?
#30 by limkamput on Sunday, 31 January 2010 - 4:26 pm
1. A doctor can work for 20 years and is still not a pakar. The fact that he has worked for several years in Australia does not ipso facto qualify him as a pakar.
2. There are reasons why an applicant must apply when s/he is still abroad. Can you imagine the flood-gate when all overseas trained experts already residing in Malaysia now also want to apply all the incentives and privileges?
3. Many of you fellows are just too negative and ignorant to make meaningful comments. I am also not happy with many of the policies and performance of the government. But we must be objective and fair when making comments. So you are a medical expert, must we deliver to you everything on the platter and receive you with bunga mangga at KLIA?
#31 by undertaker888 on Sunday, 31 January 2010 - 6:03 pm
///.3. Many of you fellows are just too negative and ignorant to make meaningful comments. …limkaput
the writer already said he/she is a professional. he/she got rejected bcos of not sending from overseas. how hard is it for you to understand.
your hallucination is not helpful as well.
#32 by limkamput on Sunday, 31 January 2010 - 6:16 pm
And how hard is it for you to understand what i am saying? He/she is a professional, but is he/she an expert as defined under our brain gain programme?
#33 by tenaciousB on Sunday, 31 January 2010 - 6:43 pm
Hey lim kam put i think you got no brain la, why don’t you read this website http://www.mohr.gov.my/pdf/gplampiran-b.pdf
and then pass comments la.
My son was only a civil engineer with several years working experience in US and he could bring back a car under this programme. The poor Doc has been short changed by this silly government.
#34 by limkamput on Sunday, 31 January 2010 - 6:44 pm
i think i should stop talking with a group of nincompoops, bye
#35 by tenaciousB on Sunday, 31 January 2010 - 6:47 pm
Yala stop talking when the facts are presented in front of you. Clown.
#36 by limkamput on Sunday, 31 January 2010 - 11:21 pm
Owah, my son was only a civil engineer…
Trying to be humble but actually is damn bloody vain. Stupid a$$.
#37 by katdog on Sunday, 31 January 2010 - 11:24 pm
nice one tenaciousB.
According to the pdf document, the author already exceeds the needed requirements.
I reiterate my point. The brain gain program is a joke. Why offer special incentives to woo a few hundred Malaysians overseas back when you treat Malaysians who remained or returned to the country with total disdain which leads to 300 000 Malaysians migrating overseas?
The brain gain program has nothing to do with brain gain. Its just a publicity stunt by the government.
#38 by limkamput on Sunday, 31 January 2010 - 11:47 pm
you check my a$$, you show it to me that this doctor is a specialist. How do you know he has passed his professional exam. But if he want to come back to work as a medical officer, that is not an issue at all. A half baked medical graduate from Indonesia with no science subject at SPM level also qualifies.
#39 by monsterball on Monday, 1 February 2010 - 2:36 am
Once awhile…Limkumput is back to his bragging self…trying to teach everyone something…when he has nothing to teach at all…..just make a nonsensical presumptions…and blare out his nonsense.
He is not a clown…tenaciousB.
He wants to be noticed…with his bragging..showing how smart he is…ALWAYS.
#40 by tenaciousB on Monday, 1 February 2010 - 3:48 am
lim kamput although i’ve shown you evidence that the author need not be a specialist but a mere medical degree holder and would qualify for the incentives, your rantings about being a specialist and all, i wonder whether you are one of those sad cases that the goverment screwed over and therfore are very bitter about other people’s plight. whatever the reason, go play with your 2 cents worth of comments far far away.
#41 by tenaciousB on Monday, 1 February 2010 - 3:51 am
lim kamput although i’ve shown you evidence that the author need not be a specialist but a mere medical degree holder and would qualify for the incentives, your rantings about being a specialist and all, i wonder whether you are one of those sad cases that the government blew off and therefore are very bitter about other people’s plight.
Whatever the reason, go play with your 2 cents worth of comments far far away. Another thing, word of advice don’t insult yourself , you must be one of those who answers the question without reading the question first and probably never learned eversince.
#42 by cto on Monday, 1 February 2010 - 5:19 am
limkamput on Sunday, 31 January 2010 – 11:47 pm wrote
you check my a$$, you show it to me that this doctor is a specialist.
——————-
I think you need to get your eyes checked and your brain examined. Please read the letter and the discussion again cos’ you have either mis-read and/or you are not thinking straight. As for your a$$, let’s not go there unless you think you have a real problem. :)
The intent of my first response is to point out the possibility that the Govt is “cuttting off one’s nose to spite one’s face”. In my opinion this happens quite a lot in Malaysia – instead of looking at the overall good, we seem to be more interested in depriving others from getting ahead.
#43 by undertaker888 on Monday, 1 February 2010 - 7:40 am
limkaput is very smart in making a total as$ of himself. At minute times he maybe smart but that got blown away by his ego of “I cannot be wrong attitude.”
He is a little mahathir in ego and a lot of nazri. I guess he is going to transform to chengho or kasim or etc now.
#44 by chengho on Monday, 1 February 2010 - 8:22 am
Doc,
you came back because you cannot compete in the new Aussie environment anymore , that said say no more..heard about Indian bashing in Australia?
#45 by cto on Monday, 1 February 2010 - 11:43 am
chengho on Monday, 1 February 2010 – 8:22 am wrote
Doc,
you came back because you cannot compete in the new Aussie environment anymore , that said say no more..heard about Indian bashing in Australia?
—————
Ya-lah Chengho, there is some much Indian bashing in Australia. Plus there are all sort of mugging and shooting in the US. Makes you wonder why anyone would even consider leaving Malaysia.
Also, have you consider why is the Malaysia Govt providing incentives for these people to come back. Kindof stupid, right?