“PAS should stick to its Islamist stance, and not try to set its appeal to a middle-of-the-road approach. It should just aim to appeal to the 10 pct of the population who wants an Islamic state, and it should continue to Islamicise Kelantan and Trengganu” – Godfather.

Godfather : Are you obtuse, just naïve or in plain denial?

You think PAS is stupid or have modest ambition to be confined to only 3 states Kelantan, Trengganu and Kedah or 10 pct of population – and be a mere pawn in Pakatan rakyat other partners game to use its numbers to evict BN without giving it (PAS) a shot at its ultimate objective?? Hadi Awang already talked about PAS being dominant force/back bone of PR (like alternative UMNO) to lead the govt if PR won elections (Pg 28 The Star, 6th June). It is to realise the objective of forming an Islamic state. Even now they have been talking of having islamic influence on all Pakatan controlled states. (See the interference in Selangor state administration). They are interested in fast attaining power – and to share it with BN if necessary via “Unity Govt” per Hadi Nasharudin/Ulama faction. They even prepared to say that PR coalition partners have no problem with that even though Kit has refuted that! Take the more liberal ‘endrogen’ professional faction led by Husam. Their opposition to unity talk is more of PAS playing second fiddle to UMNO whereas what they want is to play first fiddle to PR. Hence some talk now that PAS candidate should be PM even if the common tacit understanding has all along been that coveted position goes to PKR’s Anwar Ibrahim, the Opposition Head.

If the aspirations they voice now were voiced then before 2008 GE would either DAP or PKR have agreed to collaborate with it under Pakatan Rakyat ? What is the common manifesto of PR? The last I heard it was to establish a welfare state reinstating democracy and good governance by booting BN. Was it to include PAS’s agenda to establish the theocratic state?

So what the heck are you talking about – “PAS should stick to its Islamist stance, and not try to set its appeal to a middle-of-the-road approach. We on the other hand should let PAS fight for their fan base. Let them tell their supporters they will fight for an Islamic state, (albeit) for a clean and trustworthy government.” Did other PR partners agree to this?

Godfather further said, “So long as they understand that they are constrained by the workings of PR, who are we to object to what they stand for, what they want to fight for?”

In the first place do they feel constrained by the workings of PR or more the other way around PR partners feel constrained by PAS workings (which by the way PAS is well organised in electoral machinery and demionstrations)?

On the other part of what Godfather said “who are we to object to what they stand for, what they want to fight for?”, yah, fine don’t askby by double talk and double face for our votes then!

Let the Pious team up with the Corrupt.

Only 3 things can happen by such a team up:

1. The Pious shows corrupt face. Hypocrisy is shorned off;

2. The Corrupt gets a bit more pious and less corrupt;

3. Both the Pious and Corrupt each becomes a rojak of piety and corruption.

Its not the worst thing, any of these scenarios. People will see the more vividly the truth beyond rhetorics. No point they are made to support and vote for parties and personalities with wool in their eyes.

Godfather,

Your level of discourse has degenerated. It has gone to the level of calling people names just because their opinions are not in accord with your sentiments. In the years I have seen you commenting in this blog, the advance of years have not been matched by any correspondent advance in either wisdom or charitableness. Just bitterness. Maybe BN is guilty of doing this to you. Get a Life man, there’s not many years left.

Ooops….according to “you”…

By the way I am sure you are aware that you can by now join PAS’s non-Muslim supporters club to become card carrying PAS member (besides being a member of DAP) to promote reconciliation of their conflicting ideologies.

“Boy, I didn’t know if any coalition in power depends on majority electorate. Extraordinary observation” – Godfather.

I did not make this extraordinary analysis about “any coalition in power depends on majority electorate.”

As per what I stated (quoted by Godfather), it was whether the coalition in power is “Exclusivist” Coalition or “Inclusivist” Coalition. The accent and emphasis is on “Exclusivist” versus or “Inclusivist” coalition, and which in power depends not on just majority electorate (votes) but their maturity derived from confidence in determining where their votes go.

This is entirely different from the simplistic complexion given to what I said by Godfather just for the purpose of ridiculing.

This is an illustration of what I meant by an “agitated state of mental pregnancy with successive incoherent deliveries” to distort a message for another purpose of ridiculing the messenger, a reflection of a maturity of a man not commensurating his age.

I am not trying to justify any of my analysis as “extraordinary” or is any of your sarcasm missed – its just showing your ordinary/customary distortion of what others say, thats all.

///Now a QC wannabe is trying to be a psychologist wannabe/// – Godfather

One doesn’t have to be a ‘psychologist wannabe’to know you have a close mind – like a steel trap – but not the mouth to match. Your hatred for BN has made you a recalcitrant PAS apologist denying every trangression of PAS.

You asked TomThumb if he heard what Nik Aziz said. What Nik Aziz said at the muktamar rubbishing talk of a unity government was immediately downgraded in importance by No. 2 Deputy President Nasharudin who said that Nik Aziz Nik’s views did not represent the party’s, without heed of the irony that Nik Aziz/Tok Guru is PAS spiritual leader!

You don’t even bother to engage, much less, contradict contents of what was written by Reme Ahmad, The Straits Times (cited in Malaysia Today) cited by Lee Wang Yen and immediately tried to discredit/ridicule it by sarcastically asking Lee why he did not wait for Wong Chun Wai’s editorial in the STAR. Wang Yen has since clarified that it was The Straits Times, Singapore, different from Malaysian NST. It shows that you are interested not in merits or demerits in discussion but to only take or oppose positions in rigid way. Again one does not need to be a psychologist wannabe to see this.

PAS 55th Muktamar calling “for a ban by the National Fatwa Council on the Sisters in Islam (SIS)” The resolution was passed without being even debated by the members at the muktamar. PAS claimed that SIS was confusing Islamic society and also infiltrating the minds of Muslims with its “liberal thinking”.

What did Godfather do? He said “ Kit is shocked that PAS wants to ban Sisters in Islam. Fine. Did he threaten to pull DAP out of PR ? No, he is seeking further clarification.”

But that is Kit. He is leader of a component party. He may have to do what you said. We are not him. We do not share same mindset as members at PAS muktamar. We don’t think even DAP members agree to what PAS muktamar did.

We expressed the reservations that this dimmed hopes that PAS would change its mindset from exclusivist to inclusivist; it portended ill regarding viability of DAP – PAS collaboration within PR framework. Right or wrong, we don’t deserve to be berated/ridiculed by you (for example calling Wang Yen a Kid) for expressing these reservations in light of recent developments in PAS 55th Muktamar – unless you are a fanatic!

The last time we argued on PAS, you were arrogant and dogmatic. Now the only way you have changed is to reverse that order – to become dogmatic and arrogant – a motion with no movement, much less any improvement in terms of flexibility of thinking! Still the pathetic apologist for PAS willing to expose everything we hold dear to threat just to do off UMNO/BN coalition, whose image dominates your small mental screen only as you peer at the distance equivalent to that between your eyes and the end of your nose.

Calling you rigid in mindset would insult the mindset of even those who moved motion against Sisters in Islam (SIS).

“Unfortunately English isn’t the first language for many of us.”

A case of the bad workman always blames his tools. You should be very happy with Nizar and other PAS members who had filed a suit against the Education Ministry and its minister to stop the implementation of teaching of science and maths in English.

Your children and great grand children have further cause to blame the lack of tools.

Just now Godfather said, “You should just blame your hands, because on the one hand…” Earlier he was commenting about “torn between his two hands, and he ends up holding only one thing in both hands – and that isn’t pretty-looking.”

He is obsessed with hands – and whats in between.

When distortion is exposed, profanity is also good and Ok alternative for the So Called Defender of the Pious Party of PAS! :)

///you were always torn between YOUR two hands….over the years….always commenting about on the one hand, and on the other hand….legal mumbo jumbo written in “undeniably eloquent English”/// – Godfather.

It is good to weigh issues from more than one axis; to hold and juggle two or more variables when evaluating a matter. This cannot be refuted by a simplistic statement that “ History is made by people who make a stand. History is not made by people who sit on the fence, pontificate and do nothing”. Even those who take a stand or have made history have canvassed the variables before taking the course. Due to recent anniversary of D Day, it is timely to recall that General Eisenhower determination of invasion of Normandy (D-Day) on June 6, 1944 (not earlier or later) after canvassing and weighing, this hand, that hand and other hand. What is important is severance of emotions/hopes from ob jective determination of issues.

Even for the intelligent or well informed, a great deal of intelligence or knowledge can be invested in wrong conclusions when the need for illusion and sustenance of hopes for emotional succorance is deep. It is precisely for the sake of our children and grand children we cannot – and dare not afford to structure our well-defined convictions based on emotions that the objective appraisal of issues, mistaking or misinterpreting our hopes and prejudice for principles and facts.

An example: if it were Judge N H Chan commenting about on the one hand, and on the other hand and maybe the third hand replete with the same legal mumbo jumbo written in “undeniably eloquent English”- and even sound legal principles – you would say that’s good (not narcissistic) because (1) most importantly his conclusions resonate with your sentiments (2) the authority of an ex judge, therefore the conclusion is objective, not bias.

The greatest challenge for us is to keep separate our hopes from the objective determination of a situation (say) the way PAS is moving judging from its 55th Muktamar.

Godfather’s deriding of Lee Wang Yen and his views is most unfair. Wang Yen already said : “I’m a devout Christian opposed to any form of theocracy in a pluralistic society, including Christian theocracy”. Dr Lee Wang Yen evinces a capacity to separate private convictions from that of public domain and governance – something PAS ideology is contrary to. (Whilst PAS members are entitled to their world view they should not canvass our votes basded on a misrepresentation of their ultimate position).

Lee’s capacity to separate emotions from objective determination may in part, be a result of a rigorous academic training, that provides the discipline necessary to easier separate emotions from determination of objective conclusions. To call him a ‘Kid’ based on the “truth for I have voted 5 times, and the Kid probably hasn’t voted before” to deride his message not liked, is to hit below the belt and does nothing to enlighten about the problem at hand confronting PR and everything to enlighten about your immature approach in handling others views not agreeable to you. [There are supporters of BN who voted 5 times for its component parties (that Godfather condemns): did that make them less a kid, give them better credentials deserving to be heard by you? Don’t bring in extraneous and irrelevant points to confute and obfuscate the issues discussed.

The side in PAS that favours “Unity Talk” with PR’s political opponent UMNO is not interested in national unity but power sharing before, as TomThumb said it, their natural lives are over.

The hypocrisy of such a pretension imposes even on the naïve.

Charity begins at home, and that side should be concerned with unity first within PR coalition than the more remote and difficult goal of national unity that is used as an excuse.

The side in PAS opposed to“Unity Talk”may not be concerned with loyalty and unity within PR as well. It is more concerned with strategy, whether if the party goes with UMNO, it will be relegated to second amongst equals position and exert less than decisive decision and influence on two issues (1) getting first tier access to powerful ministerial positions and hence access to largesse from gravy train and (2) attainment of its ideology of establishing theocratic state to sustain support of its constituencies in order that (1) could be sustained! Also it is weighing whether by sticking to Pakatan Rakyat, objectives (1) and (2) are quicker attained if PR wins the next general election with PAS being in position to take a leading and dominant backbone role. At yet another level, and for the present, it is also a different stance to vie for power within the party differentiating itself against the other faction in favour of Unity Talk. Simple principles of staying loyal to coalition do not count that much in opposing Unity Talk, no matter the public reason otherwise states it is! Afterall, no faction within PKR or DAP explores this option. Does this mean that the PAS faction in favour of Unity Talk really cares for national unity more than others? Even the faction opposing Unity Talk may not then have such a meritorious motivation, unsullied by considerations of strategy of which way reaches the goal (1) or (2) faster…..

Don’t be gullible. Let those who want to talk – go and talk, and even join BN. You cannot stop people from trying to realise their ambitions sooner. Just be thankful, that they show their face earlier than later. There’s nothing the other two (PKR & DAP) can do, anyway.

“boring, repetitive, pontificating” – is sometimes a convenient iron to straighten the rucks and wrinkles of old minds.

obsessed with hands – and whats in between -is but one thing, there was one time, and this is hilarious, Godpapa even asked me to bend down so that he could see things from my point of view! :)

Have to spurt lah when you’re looking from behind.

Strange how you once again misconstrue words and mistaking (once too many a times) that when someone defecates into your oesophageal passage, you’re taking him from behind… :)