A Betrayal of People’s Trust in Perak – Party Hopping in Perak

By Dr Toh Kin Woon
The Edge Business Weekly

At the time of writing this article, I learned from the electronic media that 3 State Assemblypersons from the Pakatan Rakyat (PR) in the Perak State Legislative Assembly have resigned from their respective parties. 2 of them resigned from Parti Keadilan Rakyat (PKR) while the third left the Democratic Action Party (DAP). According to the Deputy Prime Minister, Dato Seri Najib Tun Abdul Razak, these 3 will be ‘Barisan Nasional (BN) friendly’ independents in the State Legislative Assembly. By this is meant that they will support the BN, even though they are ‘independents’. Their so-called independence is not so independent after all! Meanwhile, the State Assemblyperson from the constituency of Bota, who earlier announced his resignation from UMNO to join PKR, has now returned to UMNO. With these shifts, the number of seats held by the PR has now been reduced from 31, all popularly elected by the people in the last General Election, to 28. The BN still keeps its original 28, with the remaining 3 having declared themselves as so-called independents.

His Majesty the Sultan’s Decision

Confronted with this new balance of forces, the Menteri Besar (MB) from the PR has rightly called on His Majesty the Sultan of Perak to dissolve the Assembly so that fresh elections can be called to resolve the impasse.. But His Majesty rejected the MB’s call. Instead, he has consented to appoint a leader of the BN, which has all but one of its assemblypersons from UMNO, to be the new MB. In fact, the new MB has already been sworn in. This decision of His Majesty the Sultan is likely to cause widespread frustration and disappointment among his subjects in Perak and people in the rest of the country. If public opinion polls are anything to go by, an overwhelming majority of the people would like fresh elections to be called. They would like the power to decide who, from which political party, should represent them in the State Legislative Assembly, be returned to them. By not giving the royal assent to dissolve the Perak State Legislative Assembly, as requested by the Menteri Besar from the PR, His Royal Highness has denied the people their right to choose their representatives to the Assembly. Some legal experts have also argued that the MB from PR cannot be asked to step down until a motion of no-confidence has been passed in the State Legislative Assembly against him and his government. Many precedents have confirmed this legal view.

Why Such Misdemeanour among the Party Hoppers?

Hopping from one party to another, dubbed as turncoatism in the Philippines, has happened frequently in Malaysia. Often, those who jump from one party to another do not have the decency to resign to allow for by-elections to be called. Perhaps, they are discouraged from doing so as the law in Malaysia does not allow a sitting member of the legislature who resigns to contest an election until 5 years later. But by not resigning his or her legislative position after quitting the party under whose banner a state assemblyperson was elected, he or she has committed several major errors. One is to betray the trust of the people who elected him or her. The other is to deny the people’s right of evaluating the action of the legislator and the party that enticed him or her over, as well as who should represent them in the legislature. Often, some legislators forget that the legislature they sit in is called in some countries as the House of Representatives, that is, they are representatives of the people. But, why do some legislators hop from one party to another, one might ask? One is political opportunism. They jump because of pecuniary gains offered by the party, usually the ruling or would be the ruling party, should he or she cross over to it. The party that lures them to cross over might have promised them a high position in the government or even lots of cash. It could also be that their shift of allegiance is the result of a bargain not to pursue an action against the hopping legislator, who has been charged or is under investigation for a criminal offence. Some hop because of irreconcilable differences with some of their old party leaders. These differences could be personal, or due to the hoppers being by-passed for senior positions in the government. There are the odd cases, however, of people leaving because they could no longer agree with the political principles, positions and practices of their colleagues in the party from which they have resigned. These people leave their party over principles and not for opportunistic or personal reasons.

The Essence of Democracy

Among the reasons, it is the party hopping for personal monetary or political gains on the part of the hopper, and gaining state power on the part of the party that lures them over, that is most despicable. People generally despise such behaviour, both on the part of the party that lures the hoppers and the hoppers themselves. What has happened in Perak was a case of the BN luring a few PR State Assemblypersons to cross over to its fold in order to gain control of the state government. This is clearly a very undemocratic way to gain power, for democracy, in its classical meaning, is “rule by the people”. In an effort to explain how it is technically possible for the people to rule, Joseph Schumpeter came up with his pathbreaking empirical and procedural definition of democracy, or more precisely the democratic method, as “that institutional arrangement for arriving at political decisions in which individuals acquire the power to decide by means of a competitive struggle for the people’s vote.” So seeking the people’s votes or support to gain state power is the key essence of democracy, and not by way of luring elected representatives to jump ship.

How Can We Stop Unprincipled Party Hopping?

Luring is one thing. The legislators targeted must not be so easily lured. One way to achieve this is for political parties to strengthen their political programmes and ideology and take steps to ensure that their members, especially those who seek elected legislative office, not only subscribe but are committed to them. A good example of a party with a strong ideological base is PAS. We may not agree with its ideology, but it has to be acknowledged that all who have joined PAS are committed to fighting for the party’s cause. This explains why the PAS government managed to survive in Kelantan, despite having the slimmest of slim majority of only one during the latter part of its tenure from 2004 to 2008. I am sure attempts must have been made then to get a few of its state assemblypersons to leave, yet none of the PAS representatives took the bait. This was because they were all ideologically committed to the cause of PAS. To reduce crossovers, political parties must, therefore, have a strong ideology, which must then be inculcated in the party’s leaders and members. The socialist parties of yesteryears used to have a strong ideological base, too. Party members chosen to contest for elections must also have strong ethics and morals. If they have, they will know that betraying the party for opportunistic reasons is both immoral and unethical, even if it is not yet illegal. Another way is to have an anti-hopping law, which makes party hopping illegal. This is not likely as long as the BN is in control of the Federal Government. Still another way is for the people to send a strong message of disapproval to the party that has frustrated and denied them their choice of the party or coalition they have elected to govern. The BN has, in this instance, denied the people of Perak their choice of PR as the party to govern them. The BN must be told in no uncertain terms that this action is undemocratic, unethical and immoral. Those who have jumped and betrayed them for personal gains must also be rejected. I am sure and confident that this is what the people are going to do and will do in the next General Election.

(The author is currently a visiting research fellow under the Asian Public Intellectuals’ Senior Fellowship at the University of the Philippines in Diliman and the Ateneo de Manila University)

  1. #1 by justice6 on Sunday, 15 February 2009 - 6:58 pm

    heard hee is staying in one of the hotel in Ipoh… casurina hotel…anyone can confirm?

  2. #2 by alberttye on Sunday, 15 February 2009 - 7:00 pm

    DAP vice chairman Tunku Abdul Aziz Ibrahim condemned the protests by Umno Youth against DAP chairman Karpal Singh’s statement that the Perak ruler can be sued over his actions which he deemed were unconstitutional.

    He labelled the behaviour of Umno Youth supporters as similar to “Hitler Youth,” the Nazi extremist paramilitary group that supported Adolf Hitler’s Aryan supremacist doctrine.

    “If anyone should be tried for treason, it should be Mahathir,” he said, referring to former Prime Minister Tun Dr Mahathir Mohamed’s role in initiating constitutional amendments which removed immunities for the royals in 1993.

    PKR deputy president Dr Syed Husin Ali had also slammed Umno as being the ones who were traitors

    He said that when there was an impasse over who should be mentri besar in Terengganu, Umno supporters had held up banners insulting its Sultan as “Raja Binatang (Animal King).”

  3. #3 by undergrad2 on Sunday, 15 February 2009 - 7:15 pm

    Yes, someone cut and paste some of the media statements made in 1993 by elements of UMNO Youth to refresh their memories. See if they can come up with a new meaning to the word ‘derhaka’.

  4. #4 by gofortruth on Sunday, 15 February 2009 - 8:14 pm

    I’m glad I read Hannah Yeoh’s blog that she correctly differentiated Najib’s evil take over as oppose to Answar’s attempt for Federal control in that Anwar promised to hold a fresh General election within a year to seek fresh mandate from the people. Najib has promised NOTHING!

  5. #5 by ReformMalaysia on Sunday, 15 February 2009 - 9:08 pm

    The other big issue here is whether this 3 frogs assemblymen can still carry out their responsibility to the people they represent effectively.

    The people who elected them have lost their trust on them, they go on hiding from they public(and even from their own constituents). So if there representative could and do not perform the duties that they are supposed to perform, can they still can view themselves as ‘representative of the people’? or is their new role now is just to make up the numbers to enable Barisan Nasional to form the state government? This situation would also means the 3 ADUNs is going to receive ‘gaji buta’.

    The EC and Ruler could have avoided this situation if they acted with wisdom and impartiality. If they want respect from the people, they have to earn the respect. Respect could not be forced on any one -it must be earned!

  6. #6 by wanderer on Sunday, 15 February 2009 - 9:26 pm

    “Do what I tell you but, I do what I like” this is the mentality of UMNO katuanan Melayu principle. To clinch on to power they are prepared to stoop to the lowest level of human decency….even to forgo ethics and morality…that is how desperate UMNO-BN the ruling party is. The end justify the means.
    Talking of principles and ethics to these animal politicians is simply a waste of one’s precious time.

  7. #7 by democrate on Sunday, 15 February 2009 - 9:29 pm

    Umno lost many votes from the Malays in the last GE.
    Umno also lost the other two by elections which made up of Malays majority.
    Simple as that Umno lead by Najis [ forget about Dolah, he is good for Nothing not even worth a single cent] has been desperate ,so their last solution is to make use of Yellow power to cheat and recover the Malay votes. [deleted]
    So these group of Umno Youth are so uncivilised to confront YB Karpal JUST BCOS Najis and the double standard Police force are behind them. their brains are born in their buttocks !

  8. #8 by hijau on Sunday, 15 February 2009 - 9:36 pm

    Hannah Yeoh should have used an analogy that could cut through a Malaysian muslim heart.
    Gazans shot home made rockets on what is claimed isreali soil, formerlly thiers. Killed and injured a handfull. Neutrals will understand and can justify that.
    However the west would justify isreal’s responce, a state sponsored murder of about thousand and maiming thousands more, excuse was the homemade rockets.
    Amwar did a sept16 for justifiable reasons, but najibs assult was unwarranted and immoral.

    I hate to politicize the Gazan pain, but its just a analogy.

  9. #9 by Godfather on Sunday, 15 February 2009 - 9:49 pm

    Whilst we are all entitled to throw rotten eggs and rotten tomatoes at the 3 PR frogs, we must also be mindful to throw these at the mainstream press. The STAR played up the “call” by RPK for Anwar, Kit and Hadi to resign and take responsibility for the Perak fiasco. Not many of us believed it, and now RPK has clarified his stand. Would the STAR carry a retraction, or at least a clarification of what RPK really meant ? I don’t think so.

    [deleted] Wong Chun Wai will only spin for his masters.

  10. #10 by limkamput on Sunday, 15 February 2009 - 9:54 pm

    I think there is no lack of ideas to debate the present impasse in Perak. I just feel that more Malay leaders from DAP, PKR and most important of all from PAS must come forward to counter the lies and misrepresentation of UMNO youth. UMNO-BN is one-dimensional party. For them, it is very simple: they will just fabricate and concoct every damn issue into a racial one. To them it is one sure way to shut the mouth of the non-Malays and to galvanise the support of the Malays. The Malays from PR must break this myth. It is for the long term good of this country that political leadership is decided by capability rather than by the colour of one’s skin. Barrack Hussien Obama is one good example but I have already heard ramblings among some ultra Malays that it is not a good model for Malaysia.

  11. #11 by k on Sunday, 15 February 2009 - 9:58 pm

    When I respect the Sultan, I expect HRH to respect me back but don’t expect me to respect bad/corrupt/unfair people, no matter who they are.

  12. #12 by StevePCH on Sunday, 15 February 2009 - 9:58 pm

    The Star online reported Pak Lah as saying :-

    On the Perak State Assembly Speaker, he said the Government had yet to decide on who would become the new Speaker.

    On the position of Pakatan Rakyat’s Tronoh assemblyman V. Sivakumar who has maintained he is still the Speaker as he was voted Speaker through the state assembly and could only be relieved the same way, Abdullah said: “There will be approaches that we will use to replace the Speaker later.”

    Now …. there are a few ways that I can see this happening :-

    1) Use $$$ by “corrupting” C4 agent to defect , if fail, then use option 2

    2) Use C4 on the current Speaker by dictator C4.

    3) or Do what they did to current PR Govt. Illegal takeover. Blame Speaker for being Derhaka. then it’s legal.

    I really that BN is hopeless.Sleepy head AAB does not seems to understand that Rakyat and succumb to such dirty tactics.

    SHAME on BN . May you lose all your future by-elections and elections. You don’t deserve to win any seat.

    Nobody is above Malaysia constitution. If our PM cannot uphold it, it’s better for him to get lost earlier.

  13. #13 by limkamput on Sunday, 15 February 2009 - 10:04 pm

    We talk and talk about the biasness and manipulations by main stream media. I have said many times, it is pointless just to whine and groan. We must do something that hurt their pocket. They love money. We must make them bankrupt. That is the best approach. If PR members and sympathizers stop buying MSM, they will go bankrupt in three months.

    Godfather, i am proposing your name and also that of Jeffrey and Undergr*d2 as PR candidates for next general election. We can not depend those hee hee hee candidates.

  14. #14 by Godfather on Sunday, 15 February 2009 - 10:09 pm

    Eh, Limkamput, I thought you were grooming your kid to be prime minister ?

  15. #15 by limkamput on Sunday, 15 February 2009 - 10:24 pm

    Yes, i did. When Obama became President, I jokingly told my kids they should work to become the PM of Malaysia in twenty years since i am too old and too late for the post now. My elder one told me, i have to depend on the younger one. The younger one said, what twenty years? don’t underestimate me!

  16. #16 by Godfather on Sunday, 15 February 2009 - 10:26 pm

    If we were all to contest at the next GE, there could well be plenty of by-elections further down the road as many of us may not last the entire term !

  17. #17 by Godfather on Sunday, 15 February 2009 - 10:27 pm

    …except for Undergrad2 who is probably young enough to jump back and forth between PR and BN for several terms…

  18. #18 by Onlooker Politics on Sunday, 15 February 2009 - 11:07 pm

    “…except for Undergrad2 who is probably young enough to jump back and forth between PR and BN for several terms…” (Godfather)

    Godfather is probably too old to teach us about the principle, moral standard and ethical codes. We should encourage Undergrad2 to join PR and remain as a PR loyal member until the last day of his bereavement just like making a sweet promise in the Valentine’s Day. To jump back and forth between PR and BN is the most despicable thing to do since it goes against any principle in accordance with the norm that is to be set-out based on high moral ground, whether it is a social norm, religious norm or political norm. This is the basic reason why Hee is turned into an outcast immediately after she has chosen to defect from such a party of good ideology as DAP !

  19. #19 by Onlooker Politics on Sunday, 15 February 2009 - 11:30 pm

    Mohd Khir Toyo and Khairy Jamaluddin are both playing the Royal Immunity card in their political campaign for Umno Party Election. Two of them will equally divide the votes from the Umno supporters of Royal Immunity against lawsuit. Therefore the final runner-up in the contest for the post of Umno Youth Chief may be the son of Tun Dr. Mahathir, namely Mukhriz Mahathir, who will go against the ruler when the ruler is deemed to intervene or interfere in the decision-making of political matters.

    The Royal families will be the ultimate loser in the Perak fiasco because Umno shall never agree to return the Legal Immunity to the Rulers since this is against the will of Top party leader of Umno.

  20. #20 by juno on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 12:59 am

  21. #21 by Jong on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 12:59 am

    “Godfather, i am proposing your name and also that of Jeffrey and Undergr*d2 as PR candidates for next general election. We can not depend those hee hee hee candidates.” – limkamput

    WOW what a compliment! Time to change PR to
    PRT(Pakatan Rakyat Tua)! :D

  22. #22 by Jeffrey on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 4:13 am

    “There will be approaches that we will use to replace the Speaker later.” StevePCH quoted The Star on what PM said per posting Yesterday at 21: 58.57
    What are the approaches? One likely approach is a motion of no confidence on DAP’s V. Sivakumar.

    Although Selangor Speaker Teng Chang Khim opined that there was nothing in Perak State Constitution that provided for the Speaker’s removal and hence Sivakumar could not even be removed (as Perak speaker) by a vote of no confidence, this is unlikely to be true. (Teng could not be correct because the absence of an express provision within Perak State Constitution providing for Speaker’s removal does not imply that the Speaker could not be removed at all. It is implied that just as he was appointed by majority, so he could be deposed by majority. Otherwise there is no means to remove (say) an errant Speaker who has done wrong.) Indeed even V. Sivakumar was on record for earlier saying “I was elected as the Speaker by a vote in the state assembly, and will only be relieved of my post the same way”, suggesting that a vote of no confidence, if carried by majority in the Perak State Assembly, would be effective to remove him.

    To carry a vote of no confidence, Zamry & BN would absolutely bank on having 28 assemblymen + 3 “friendly independents = 31 as against PR’s 28 to carry the motion of no confidence.

    Tactically PR has so far tried to preempt the BN from exercising its 31 majority vote and PR does it by getting Canning DAP state assemblyperson Wong Kah Woh to lodge a complaint to Speaker Sivakumar about Zambry and 6 other BN assemblypersons accusing them and the BN of taking over the Perak government unconstitutionally. Under standing order 72 (3), the Committee of Privileges –presumably packed by majority PR assemblymen – has the power to summon the 7 BN assemblymen found to have violated House regulations and rules…

    The findings of the Committee of Privileges will then be tabled at the state assembly and – here is the key – should PR manage to garner enough support to back the committee’s findings, Zambry and his excos may be punished with suspension or even expulsion.
    Since Committee of Privileges is expected to be dominated by PR’s representatives, it will make a finding against the 7 BN representatives.

    The question is whether when tabled to the larger Perak Assembly, PR would manage to garner enough support to back the committee’s findings to suspend or expel Zamri & the other 6.
    It may be wondered – how could PR when BN has 31 majority versus PR’s 28?

    The strategy on PR’s part is to have Sivakumar rule as Speaker that Zamri & the 6 are disqualified from voting on this issue on grounds of conflicts of interest that they could not deliberate their own cause and vote.

    Should Speaker Sivakumar make such a ruling to disqualify the BN’s 7, BN would only have the remaining 24 against PR’s 28 when it comes to voting on the Committee of Privileges’ negative findings, which if acrried would see BN assemblymen suspended or expelled.

    By counter action BN could resort to court but regardless of issue of merits or otherwise on legal issues, court process would ordinarily be slow to resolve the stalemate, so the other likelier approaches by BN would be to solicit Ruler’s help and police to enforce the Royal command.

  23. #23 by taikohtai on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 7:00 am

    The yardstick of a successful organisation is its succession plan. BN’s succession plan is in disarray and they appear to be united only in their common greed and power to plunder. Unfortunately, PR also has trouble with their collective succession plan as the three coalitions can be at loggerheads.
    So what future is being laid for the next generation of Malaysians by gomen?
    Bipartisan support for national issues is non-existent in Malaysia. So how can Malaysians be united to face global economic, social and environment issues? Yes, the katak mentality is just too strong and is not about to change. Yes, many of us will continue to cry for Malaysia for a long while yet.

  24. #24 by ctc537 on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 7:35 am

    taikohtai Says:
    So how can Malaysians be united to face global economic, social and environment issues? Yes, the katak mentality is just too strong and is not about to change. Yes, many of us will continue to cry for Malaysia for a long while yet.

    To many, there is another more serious mentality that will ensure the country to remain as Third World country for generations to come. Widespread corruption.

  25. #25 by yhsiew on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 8:26 am

    UMNO Youth practice double standards. Instead of blasting Karpal Singh for challenging the Sultan of Perak in court, why didn’t they protest against Tun Dr. M. when the latter stripped off the Sultan’s immunity in 1993? Isn’t stripping off the Sultan’s immunity far more serious than challenging him in court?

  26. #26 by monsterball on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 8:41 am

    It is good for Dr.Toh Kim Woon to speak up.
    There are few learned people who spoke up…all against the Sultan so call lawful decision….ignoring totally people’s opinions…moral…ethic…even a clear conscience…to do right thing.
    The die is cast.
    What can Malaysians do?
    Yes….a royalty can be sued in Negri Sembilan….making hm pay up…or got to court..why can’t one be tested on the Sultan Of Perak?
    Why double standards? Why UMNO take to the streets lead by that sickening Toyo….defending the Sultan….when it was UMNO through Mahathir…that took off immunity …from Sultans….all legally approved .recorded …in Parliament?
    Is it not sick to see UMNO makes all the laws and break anyone…to suit their whims and fancies,
    Toyo is trying to fan for trouble…showing his true low class person….since loosing out in election.
    Love to see them offer a prayer..to Allah..after cursing and swearing at Karpal Singh.
    I wonder what are they praying..what are they saying…on such a day?
    Praying for the three grasshoppers…giving them false dreams??

  27. #27 by messi on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 8:50 am

    Dear All,

    This is a good piece by Hannah Yeoh, a young and intelligent ADUN just back from the USA where she was one of two Malaysians picked by the US Embassy to attend Obama’s inauguration. Her thoughts on the Anwar-Najib defection comparisons re Perak Crisis is sharp and most relevant. I am most glad I voted her as my ADUN in Subang Jaya. Malaysia needs more young, intelligent leaders like her.

    A mockery of our democratic institution
    To those who argue that the political crisis in Perak now is a taste of Pakatan’s own medicine (referring to the Sept 16 takeover plan), they have failed to see the key differences between the two. If you remember what happened when Dato’ Seri Anwar Ibrahim claimed to have the numbers to form the new federal government, he wrote to PM Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi requesting him to convene an emergency sitting of Parliament. This was rejected by the PM. The next constitutional option is to press for the dissolution of Parliament to make way for fresh new elections. That was also not entertained. Anwar Ibrahim exhausted the constitutional means that were available to him. If Pakatan were to act unconstitutionally and lure defections, then we will be having a new government today . But we didn’t and we will not act unconstitutionally. So you can’t say that Najib’s coup and Pakatan’s plan were one and the same.

    Some may also say, well what about the earlier defection of Bota assemblyman, Datuk Nasarudin Hashim? Why did Pakatan Rakyat accept him? Why not force his seat to be vacated for a by-election? Let’s keep things in perspective here. His defection was that of an opposition lawmaker to a governing lawmaker. His defection did not alter the balance of power in the State Assembly. Pakatan Rakyat remained as government, and BN as opposition. Status quo. Logically and intelligently, anyone can safely assume that Pakatan Rakyat didn’t need a defection from BN. Thus, he defected on his own accord and on his own will. There was no need for Pakatan Rakyat to force him to vacate his seat as he did not win the seat on a Pakatan ticket. The Pakatan government really has no standing in forcing him to vacate a seat which wasn’t earned by Pakatan in the first place!

    I must say that I had great respect for Sultan Azlan Shah. Until yesterday. I wonder how he could possibly consent to the formation of a new BN state government when constitutionally, a government is still in place. And to even approve to a new Menteri Besar when the existing one is still in office? How can any state have 2 heads of government at any one time? There can only be one Menteri Besar of Perak. This is a mockery. The Menteri Besar can only be removed by the State Assembly via a vote of no-confidence or via the dissolution of the assembly. And none of these two constitutional means has been requested by BN. How can anyone claim that Najib and Anwar are one and the same?

    Next, the Sultan called for a “unity” government to be formed by BN and the Independents. Let’s be clear about this. The Independents are in no way legally bound to represent BN. Well, at least not yet, not till they officially become members of a BN component party. All that the Sultan and Najib has from them is a verbal assurance that “we will be friendly to BN”.. And just by appearing in a press conference with Najib, it justifies the change of government? What if next week these Independents were to be seen in a press conference with Pakatan? A real “unity” government envisioned by the Sultan should have been an all-inclusive government of Pakatan, BN, and the Independents. Pakatan and BN each have 28 seats, and the Independents 3. Thus, no single party or coalition has a commanding majority. If there is to be a “unity” government, it calls for a new coalition of PR-BN-Ind which is impossible. Thus, what the Sultan has called for is simply a name without substance. What “unity” if it’s going to consist of only single-minded representatives – all “friendly to BN”? That’s not a “unity” government, it’s a BN government. This is a mockery of the intelligence of Malaysians. A beginning of what is to come with this PM-to-be.

  28. #28 by undergrad2 on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 9:18 am

    Onlooker Politics Says:

    Yesterday at 23: 07.34
    Godfather is probably too old to teach us about the principle, moral standard and ethical codes. We should encourage Undergrad2 to join PR and remain as a PR loyal member …”

    Don’t think I made anti_PR statements?? Only small minds would read statements criticial of PR stand on specific issues as being anti-PR.

  29. #29 by undergrad2 on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 9:30 am

    I am not a member of any political party which gives me the freedom to criticise the leaders of all parties including PR.

    I believe PR is today enjoying a honeymoon. Once UMNO goes into a free fall and implodes which is a possibility, then partners within PR (which remains a loose coalition) will start to squabble especially with PAS. It is already happening. Leaders are blaming each other. PR leaders will have to act quickly to forge a common ideology.

  30. #30 by undergrad2 on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 9:53 am

    What is wrong with changing party affiliations? It is your constitutional right to do so. You said so in the case of Sarawak.

    When somebody jumps in the direction you want him or her to jump you applaud him or her and shower him or her with accolades. But when he or she jumps the other way you say PR does not need to make any apology – to quote an Australian trained lawyer. Why? An Australian lawyer has received training in a different set of principles??

    It is not the fact that you change party affiliations but it is why you change them. If you’ve been induced by fraud or corruption, then it is not really changing party affiliations. It is you putting your party affiliations up for sale and that is indefensible and wrong especially when it brings down the government. That has happened in Perak and could be happening in Sarawak.

    I would like to know if the likes of Onlooker would turn down even an offer of $30,000. People are known to sell their grandmother for less.

  31. #31 by Jeffrey on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 9:59 am

    In response to matters raised above by messi in posting Today at 08: 50.29 (34 minutes ago), Hannah Yeoh’s argument that Anwar’s 916 plan based on defection was (morally) distinguishable – and defensible – from BN’s grab for power in Perak by defection by reason that Anwar had resorted to “constitutional” means of witing to PM to convene an emergency sitting of Parliament to test support by a motion of confidence/non confidence is not persuasive because the latter was based on a “bluff” that PR already had the majority numbers in Dewan Rakyat which it actually didn’t have.

    If PR had the majority numbers in Dewan Rakyat, an indirect motion of no confidence would have been carried by PR’s rejection of Finance Bills/budget by majority in Dewan Rakyat.

    As it was a bluff that the PM didn’t believe, and indeed called it by not acceding to PR’s request to convene a special emergency sitting of Parliament to test support by a motion of confidence/non confidence, one can’t use that strategy of bluff to alone distinguish/justify Anwar’s poaching 916 game plan on a moral excuse that the constitutional means of a request for an emergency sitting of Parliament had first been resorted to (unlike Perak situation). What so constitutional about a bluff?

    The real difference between Anwar’s 916 and Najib’s Perak power grab is that Anwar 916 could not be proven by majority numbers due to defections whereas Najib’s power grab could by majority numbers due to defections. It is a difference between a bluff in the first 916 case and that of a real power grap that succeeded at the Perak State Assembly level!

    Hannah Yeoh is showing promise as young politician with her political cum legal “spin” but a spin is still a spin and has to be identified as what it is if one ones to call a spade a spade!

  32. #32 by Jeffrey on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 10:10 am

    Of course the other difference is Anwar’s 916 is based on a mere expression of intention (with a lot of publicity ahead of schedule and forewarning to his political counter party BN of his intentions) to power grab at Federal level with assistance of defectors whereas Najib’s Perak coup de grace was silent and went beyond intention and was executed with devastating consequences.

    In these circumstances could it be said that the first 916 plan (that as a bluff was unrealised) was on a morally higher ground than the Perak power grab as Hannah Yeoh contends?

    If so, it would rest on the argument that one who wants to do a wrong thing but could not execute it due to the lack of means is in a higher moral position than the other one who means business and has done the wrong thing because he has the means.

  33. #33 by taiking on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 10:15 am

    As far as I know from the MSM, about that bota idiot who is now back in umno there was no mention or accusation by him at all that he was enticed by pakatan to jump from umno to pakatan.

    I mean look if there was then surely umno would make a himalaya out of it with probably several thousand police reports and mcaa reports lodged against pakatan and with the MSM singing and dancing all the way to heavan.

    That being the case isnt it possible for one to conclude that that idiot actually quit umno and joined pakatan for a genuine reason.

    After he was “kidnapped” by some people and forced to have a meeting with najib he made a press release citing some political stability shit as reason for going back to umno.

  34. #34 by cintanegara on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 10:17 am

    //This is a good piece by Hannah Yeoh, a young and intelligent ADUN just back from the USA where she was one of two Malaysians picked by the US Embassy to attend Obama’s inauguration// – Messi

    Young and Intelegence????? What What has she done the past one year after being selected as the ADUN???? Have you seen a positive development and investment in Subang????? People of Subang must have regretted voting for her……Typical PR mentality and Style……No action talk only…….She is just trying to gain a cheap political mileage…….Unfortunately this is her last term….

  35. #35 by Godfather on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 10:19 am

    The real difference is that the rakyat wanted Anwar’s power grab to succeed, and Najib’s power grab to fail. One has moral legitimacy while the other doesn’t.

  36. #36 by cintanegara on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 10:32 am

    Godfather, I thought Rakyats want the other way around? Ehhhmmm…… When you’re dreaming at night, something seems very real, but when you wake up the dream is gone….

    Moral of the story – Dream something realistic

  37. #37 by OrangRojak on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 10:41 am

    I’m glad you said that Jeffrey.

    What has she done …?
    cintanegara, while the praise may have been excessive, it’s not entirely inaccurate. Search for Hannah Yeoh on Google, go to her personal blog and to the Subang Jaya DAP site – dapsj.com (what’s with the trailing . in the host part of some URLs on that site?). A lot of talk, certainly, but it’s mostly about action. PR politicians are denied access to the mainstream media and to Federal support, according to Shahrir. ‘Cheap’ political mileage is the only kind that’s available to them. Still, spending lots of public money and losing popularity isn’t very efficient, is it?

  38. #38 by Bobster on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 11:19 am

    The rakyat generally have great respect especially to the Sultan of Perak not till recent betrayal of our trust by unethical endorsement of the new state government. His Highness also did not clarify more what is the rational behind his decision, may be he is too high up there and nobody can question his decision and he need not elaborate more.

    Oh well, this is 21 century, royalty also answerable to God and rakyat, as they are paid by us taxpayers.

    Respectable Sultan of Selangor also should not forget how Toyo and cronies (Datuk Z) robbed the Selangor land in the past. His should not get personal/emotional defending his relative for the sake of defending forgeting justice and equality for the nation, if there is any left.

  39. #39 by k1980 on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 11:28 am

    Should hrh wishes to dabble in politics, he can always stand in Bkt Gantang as an umno candidate and let the rakyat decide.

  40. #40 by cintanegara on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 11:29 am

    The rational behind his decision (Wise King) – The ex MB was just a puppet, surrounded by a party which represents a PARTICULAR community. This is not GOOD for Perak in the long run…. Majority Perakians want a Government for all…not just focusing on a particular race and community….Got it???

  41. #41 by Godfather on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 11:38 am

    cintanegara aka shiok sendiri: Yes, like MLK, I had a dream, and my dream is turning out to be UMNO’s worst nightmare. That’s why Najis is so afraid to go for state-wide elections.

    If the rakyat really wanted your den of thieves, then UMNO should not be afraid of going for elections. Got it ???

  42. #42 by Godfather on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 11:53 am

    In fact, cintanegara should pass on this message to his boss Najis:

    dissociate yourself from Badawi and Kera Jantan. Be your own man. Call for a snap GE to legitimise the Najis administration. Let the rakyat show their “affection” for you.

    Berani tak ?

  43. #43 by AhPek on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 11:53 am

    ‘What has she done the past one year after being elected as Adun?’cintanegara.

    It shows unmistakably the blind loyalty and biasness in you that is the big factor in accounting for the state Malaysia is in today! If not you could have asked “What has Badawi done over the past 5 years as PM? Or what has Najib done so far to deserve the highest job in the country?” I am sure if you are sincere enough to dig truthfully into their track record you might want to change their allegiance and jump ship!

  44. #44 by AhPek on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 11:56 am

    correction: ‘ I am sure……………………change your allegiance and jump ship!’.

  45. #45 by cintanegara on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 12:12 pm


    BN Leaders are dedicated and committed to work. They are totally different from PR leaders who like to waste time campaigning and fooling the Rakyat. Personal agendas first and Rakyat least priority……That’s why Penang state Government, led by a son of top DAP leader never progressed the past 1 year. Talk Talk Talk but No strategic direction…..

    BTW, Ah Pek’s back after long absence….I guess he just complete his PHD ……..Don’t be surprise after this all his facts are certified and authenticated by professional auditors…..

  46. #46 by chengho on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 12:22 pm

    Karpal is the only person consistent on the frog issues the rest of Pakatan leaders keep their elegant silent when Bota YB jumped to Anwar for 2 weeks before jumping back with 3 others….double standard Pakatan..

  47. #47 by Godfather on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 12:22 pm

    BN leaders are dedicated and committed to steal from the rakyat. This I agree. So will you ask Najis to go for a snap election ? Or is your boss under Queen control ?

  48. #48 by AhPek on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 12:25 pm

    ‘BN Leaders are dedicated and committed to work.’. cintanegara.

    How laughable can you be? Don’t you know that Badawi hasn’t started work as PM yet and Najib the most notable work he has achieved is to make himself perceived world wide as the murderer of the mongolian lady.

  49. #49 by Godfather on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 12:29 pm

    They are like leeches…committed to sucking the blood out of every warm-blooded animal they cling on to. That’s all they know and they are so proud of it.

  50. #50 by AhPek on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 12:41 pm

    And cintanegara is so mighty proud of his den of thieves!

  51. #51 by Godfather on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 12:57 pm

    The real tragedy in this country is that people like cinta-sendiri and the eunuch chengho are merely getting RM 200 for every posting they make on opposition blogs, while their masters siphon billions off government contracts, APs, public concessions, etc.

    Their masters are saying Hee Hee Hee all the way to the bank.

  52. #52 by monsterball on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 1:11 pm

    hahahahaha..I simply love cintanegara trying so hard to make UMNO the saints and PR …the devils.
    Godfather is doing an excellent job…battling him.
    I wonder how old is cintanegara.
    He sounds like a book worm…locked up by UMNO to read and read….fully programed..released…to be “His Master’s Voice” at this blog.

  53. #53 by Onlooker Politics on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 1:52 pm

    Malay Mail reported that the nude photos of PKR YB Elizabeth Wong had been unknowingly snapped and circulated by an unknown person.

    Pakatan Rakyat should immediately take up a firm position to condemn such a despicable act conducted by the irresponsible person who snapped and then circulated the photos without consent from YB Elizabeth Wong.

    All Malaysian people of good conscience should also realize that it is not a sin for someone to sleep nakedly, especially in a tropical country with hot weather even at night like Malaysia. Therefore we should show our most sincere empathy and compassion to YB Elizabeth Wong on this unhappy incident that has happened to her.

    To YB Elizabeth Wong, I wish to encourage her to stand firm against all despicable attempts by the enemy for the devilish purpose of putting her in embarrassment and humiliation. YB Wong, please continue to fight the people’s noble political cause along the path of Pakatan Rakyat and not be distracted or discouraged by the harrassment of the devil. We PR supporters will continue to uphold YB Elizabeth Wong in prayers and ask God to allow her to draw additional strength from the Most Generous Provider and the Greatest Leveller of Injustice in order for her to overcome the present trying situation in great patience and perseverance.

  54. #54 by Jeffrey on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 1:57 pm

    At the end of the day, it would pay for Pakatan Rakyat to try to preserve the moral capital by being consistent. Resorting to dirty tactics to counter the opposite side’s dirty tactics may backfire in the long run as it forfeits one high ground and right to condemn the other side’s dirty tactics.

    This is especially so when Malaysian politics is getting dirtier and more salacious. I understand that even as we speak Pakatan Rakyat is trying currently to limit collateral damage from the nude photographs of Selangor executive councillor Elizabeth Wong – probably being taken by a former boyfriend using a camera phone without her consent – being circulated in public.

    Undoubtedly these photographs will be used by the other side in the coming Bukit Gantang and Bukit Selambau by-elections to impugn the “moral character” of PR’s executive councillor.

    PR must step up the campaign to show that:
    · This is underhand heinous/criminal invasion of Elizabeth privacy
    · That consensual private sex between individuals belong to private sphere and whatever the nature of romp is no reflection on and should not be used against a person’s capability to take on public/official position.

    I have always argued for these positions, which is why I refuse to either condemn or disqualify Dr Chua Soi Lek or Zaki Tun Azmi on what they did in private either divulged by media or captured on camera.

    And I am happy that at no time YB LKS or any of other PR’s leaders had condemned either Dr Chua Soi Lek or Zaki Tun Azmi on their private romps disclosed to public without their consent! Yes PR leaders have argued for disqualification of Dr Chua or Zaki but it was on other grounds that private morality.

    If it had been otherwise, PR’s moral ground would have been once again forfeited, and this Elizabeth Wong’s nude photos will again be used by the other side against PR on the basis of what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander – just like the case of party hopping canvassed by Anwar last year has been used to justify/sheild the morality of the undemocratic power grab of Perak State Assemby recently.

  55. #55 by Godfather on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 1:58 pm

    I don’t believe that the photos were taken without her consent. Distributed without her consent definitely, but not taken without her consent. At the time of taking the photos, she did not know that the person taking them would be her ex.

    Just a minor embarrassment for her, but not one which would require her to hide from the public like Hee, or one which could require her to quit her post. All of Edison Chen’s “girlfriends” whose sexually explicit photos were shown on the net are still behaving as though nothing has happened.

  56. #56 by Godfather on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 2:01 pm

    The crapshooter is talking nonsense again. Why can’t you make a distinction between clear evidence of infidelity by a top minister or a top judge and the mere posing of photos for a boyfriend who is now taking advantage of her ?

  57. #57 by Godfather on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 2:10 pm

    Has Elizabeth Wong committed any infidelity ? Sure she was naive to allow her boyfriend to take her pictures in the nude, but then most women would not think that their steady boyfriends could well become their ex-boyfriends at the time their pictures were taken.

    This is a far cry from the indiscretions of the CJ and the Deputy MCA president.

  58. #58 by Jeffrey on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 2:20 pm

    I do not want to revist the arguments all over again.

    As usual Godfather is talking crap in his overzealous defense of the indefensible.

    It was never about the issue of “infidelity”. Reason: who are we to judge that (say) in Dr Chua Soi Lek’s case when the wife forgave and stood by him? Would it have made any difference if Dr Chua had been widowed or a bachelor caught on camera for a romp with another?

    It is all about Malaysian public hypocrisy – that a person who holds high public office should not have his/her standing demystified/lowered for being not vigilant enough to be caught in public in an act that is private, and which should be kept private because otherwise if divulged in public it represents “shame” and gave an impression of promiscuity!!

    In our collective hypocrisy we can’t have public officials caught in a shameful act disseminated in public because then how could he/she be good role models for our children – so the narrow point of view is pressed.

    One can deny all you want and try to distinguish & reconcile the case based on marital “infidelity” but that has never been a real issue because if it were otherwise so, no person would be fit for public office if he were ever divorced in the past by his spouse on grounds of marital infidelity, which is obviously not the common perception.

  59. #59 by cintanegara on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 2:23 pm

    What a shame…..Allowing her photo to be taken in that manner is no better than a ‘???????’ She must tender her resignation immediately due to moral indecency ………PR must show its sincerity by taking a stern action against her…..

  60. #60 by Jeffrey on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 2:30 pm

    Elizabeth Wong once asked these questions about Dr Chua Soi Lek’s scandal :
    I quote:
    “Hardly anyone appeared interested in the latter, since most are caught up with the excitement, baying for the Minister’s blood. But is it anyone’s business what one does and who one does it with in the bedroom?Here’s a checklist to evaluate the so-called scandal:-
    Was the act non-consensual?Was it under duress e.g. pressure and threats to keep one’s job, or to secure one’s livelihood or security? Was it a form of inducement e.g. in an employer-employee relationship which would result in benefits and advantages; or for political favours like good seat allocation, contracts, commissions etc.?Did the Minister used his job privileges e.g. to get a free or discounted hotel room, used ministerial facilities e.g. official car, or dug deep into the public coffers to pay for that hotel suite?If the answers to the above are “Nays”, then it’s none of our blooming business.”

    I am in 100% agreement with her on Dr Chua’s case as her own personal predicament – that it is none of the blooming business of judgmental characters like Godfather who will take the high moral horse on weak grounds like “Marital Infidelity” as if they got better right to judge than the spouse themselves who have condoned the indiscretion and stood by their men and said that their men were fit for high office!

  61. #61 by Godfather on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 2:33 pm

    “PR must step up the campaign to show that:
    · This is underhand heinous/criminal invasion of Elizabeth privacy
    · That consensual private sex between individuals belong to private sphere and whatever the nature of romp is no reflection on and should not be used against a person’s capability to take on public/official position.”

    Hahaha….fortunately we don’t take the advice of crapshooters or we’d going on turkey shoots at each by-election. The voters know better. We won’t lose the by-elections because of the naivete of a PKR rep. Just ignore the rants of turkeys like cintanegara, and the whole episode will just be a non-event.

  62. #62 by Onlooker Politics on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 2:39 pm

    I do not know what moral standard Godfather is going to use to measure whether a person has committed a sin of sexual immorality! However, I wish to inform that Christianity does impose a very high moral standard on sexual immorality. A person is said to have committed the lustful sin – a sin of sexual immorality – if he saw a pretty and sexy young lady and then be filled with some lustful thinking in his mind like “how good it could be to me if the pretty young girl could be turned into my lovely wife!”

    However, given the high moral standard that has been laid out for all Christians to follow in accordance with the Bible, most Christians still believe that most sins can be forgiven by God so long as God’s believers choose to repent and turn to do good for his own sake of salvation.

    Pakatan Rakyat is a political organisation and it is not a religious organisation. All three persons mentioned here, namely CJ, Deputy MCA President, and YB Wong could have committed some sins in their private life if they are being measured in accordance with the high moral standard. However, they should be given a chance to prove their innocence. Or at least a chance be given to them for showing the true repentance and turning to do good in accordance with the high moral standard. The essence of the moral value does not lie in punishment but it lies in the society’s ability to forgive and the sinners’ being given a chance to repent and change for the better!

    The same chance has been given to BN as a party but BN is too arrogant to admit its own sins and it is too stiffnecked to elicit a big change from its wrongdoing! This is the core reason why PR should be given a mandate to replace BN in GE13.

  63. #63 by Jeffrey on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 2:42 pm

    “I don’t believe that the photos were taken without her consent” – Godfather.

    So you are saying that Elizabeth Wong, in her private sexual act, would consent to her nude photographs being taken (but not distributed) – what for then? What is the mindset behind this? For consensual review with partner once in a while? What then is your opinion of a person who is Ok for a nude photos to be taken in private (as long as they are not distributed public) in terms of fitness for public service?

    If that is OK why does Godfather condemn ex MIC Deputy Speaker Vijandran video affair where he was caught on camera in privacy doing the sexual act in various position?

    Vijandran then was a bachelor. He didn’t mind being videotaped for private use – he might even be proud of it. The video was however distibuted without his consent to bring his down fall.

    What is then the difference in Elizabeth Wong’s case from Vijandran’s case that the first is Ok and second not Ok in terms of public office???

  64. #64 by Jeffrey on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 2:50 pm

    The argument of marital infidelity puts up by Godfather flies out of the window because D. P. Vijandran was a bachelor then and there was no issue of marital infidelity put up by Godfather as a differentiating factor. Yet D. P. Vijandran was forced to step down because of the collective hypocrisy of many people that public officials cannot be good role models if they are caught in the act and their nude bodies circulated. Shame Shame that’s why he has to go – that is the shameful mentality of hypocrites who deny the naturalness of the biological imperative responsible for the perpetuation of our species. Don’t come and give me the bull about marital infidelity as a disqualifying factor!

  65. #65 by Richardqed on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 3:02 pm

    In response to matters raised above by messi in posting Today at 08: 50.29 (34 minutes ago), Hannah Yeoh’s argument that Anwar’s 916 plan based on defection was (morally) distinguishable – and defensible – from BN’s grab for power in Perak by defection by reason that Anwar had resorted to “constitutional” means of witing to PM to convene an emergency sitting of Parliament to test support by a motion of confidence/non confidence is not persuasive because the latter was based on a “bluff” that PR already had the majority numbers in Dewan Rakyat which it actually didn’t have.

    If PR had the majority numbers in Dewan Rakyat, an indirect motion of no confidence would have been carried by PR’s rejection of Finance Bills/budget by majority in Dewan Rakyat. — Jeffrey

    If it was really a bluff (and really, BN would know better right?), then why would BN bring all its MPs over to Taiwan for the so-called “lawatan sambil belajar”? Wouldn’t it have been better to just let all MPs remain until Sept 16 and see what would happen? That would have proven everything beyond a shadow of a doubt that Anwar was bluffing, but no, instead there was that Taiwan trip, where for all you know, each MP could have gotten bundles of $$ to stay with BN.

    Furthermore, BN snakes are true snakes. Do you think they would show their tails and let their masters know which ones of them are planning to jump ship by voting no on the Finance Bill?

  66. #66 by Onlooker Politics on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 3:17 pm

    While we are required by the moral sense to condemn all sins, we must always love the sinners. This is the basic core value of a religion or a moral norm which encourages repentance and change for the better of the sinners.

    If people like Anwar had committed anything wrong in the past when he was still the political leader under BN like joining the other big bulls of BN to bully the Opposition party in Sabah, he should be given a chance to do good in accordance to a new set of moral standards which PR followers adopt.

    It is not easy to find a morally perfect person in the political arena, especially in Malaysia where most politicians are required to give promises to the voters before the politicians can really be sure about their ability to fulfill the promises since the election outcome is still not known when the promises are made. Based on the religious assumption that “all men are sinners”, each and every politician should be given some tolerance or bonus point in any wrong being committed in their private life. The public focus should be brought to a much broader scene of moral issues like whether or not a politician has committed a crime like taking bribe or murder.

    Therefore, YB Elizabeth Wong’s nude photos should not be made a big issue for determining on her merit to hold a government’s office since there is no perfect creature in terms of sinful nature in the world!

  67. #67 by limkamput on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 3:19 pm

    Look, I agree with godfather. Don’t be a bigot here. Whose standards are used to judge. In Australia we already have a lebsian minister. Anyway, for parents with ambition for their children to achieve greater things in life, please advise them don’t put in records any boy/girl friend thing.

    By the way if she wants to resign i think it is fine with PR. Put Godfather there to replace her and we should win hand-down.

  68. #68 by Jeffrey on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 3:23 pm

    Richardqed, it was a bluff but even so it got them worried to send MPs over to Taiwan. If it were not a bluff, you think that there would be no vote of no confidence by now against PM in Parliament or its corollary defeating the government’s bills since 916?

  69. #69 by Onlooker Politics on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 3:41 pm

    If YB Elizabeth Wong is required to resign by BN’s moral standard, then most kampung people in Paloh and Kahang shall also require Dato Seri Hishammuddin to resign from his official post as Minister of Education because of his personal misconduct being committed in the government resthouse at Batu Tiga Army Camp, Gunung Lambak, Kluang. Sometimes it is not easy for the ordinary people like us to judge whether another person has really committed an unforgivable sin, especially when the sin is known only doing harm to that person’s own spouse or lover.

    If majority of American people could forgive the former President Bill Clinton on his committing immorality sin, then there would also be good reason for most Malaysians to see thing from a much higher perspective and not be bothered too much by the politician’s exposure to sexual scandal, unless he/she has been convicted in court for committing a criminal offence of marital infidelity! But then this is something which requires the politician to succumb to the rule of law and it is not so much to do with the moral high ground as a measurement of the politician’s qualification for holding a government office!

  70. #70 by FY Lim on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 4:14 pm

    If Elizabeth were asked to resign, then almost the whole Federal cabinet needs to resign as well.

    There were reported cases of orgy parties in PD , Chief of staff alleged to have live-in maids as spares , parties organised by ministers responsible for information roping in budding artistes for their political bosses , acts committed in resthouses , nude pictures of husbands and girlfriends circulated being purchased back by wifves amounting to millions of ringgit.

    The law must be applied fairly and not only cut one side.

  71. #71 by zak_hammaad on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 4:23 pm

    I hope Pakatan see the irony in Dr Toh Kin’s article! Like Prof Dr Ahmad Atory Hussein said in an interview: “He (Anwar) is like one who casts a stone and hides his hands.”

    In the meantime, the fall-out from Pakatan’s downfall in Perak has triggered speculation that several assemblymen in Kedah and Selangor will also join the BN, with the possibility of Pakatan losing power in both states looming like an overcast sky.

    I think the simultaneous by-elections for the Bukit Gantang parliamentary seat in Perak and Bukit Selambau state seat in Kedah on April 7 will be a bitter test for Pakatan’s survival under Anwar’s leadership.

    If Pakatan wants to survive as an alternative coalition to the BN, they need to re-assess its overall plan, esp. in keeping such a divisive figure as Anwar at its helm!

  72. #72 by Godfather on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 4:35 pm

    No, no, no, Elizabeth doesn’t need to resign. She doesn’t need to do anything beyond making the police report. PR doesn’t need to do what the crapshooting lawyer is recommending i.e. equate wong’s naivete with the ‘principle’ that private indiscretions are irrelevant when it comes to public office.

    It is repugnant to equate Wong’s private act with the clearly immoral acts of CSL and the Chief Justice. It’s like night and day. Take off your blinkers, crapshooter.

  73. #73 by cintanegara on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 4:36 pm

    ‘If Elizabeth were asked to resign, then almost the whole Federal cabinet needs to resign as well.’ FY LIM

    Typical PR’s mentality and standard way of thinking…….Asking innocent people to resign when there were wrong doing within your community?

    Do you know the Home Minister of a tiny country didn’t resign when the suspected terrorist escaped from a prison? What a shame….despite so call ‘tight security’, the guy still able to slip through

  74. #74 by Onlooker Politics on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 4:52 pm

    “‘If Elizabeth were asked to resign, then almost the whole Federal cabinet needs to resign as well.’ FY LIM

    Typical PR’s mentality and standard way of thinking…….Asking innocent people to resign when there were wrong doing within your community? ” (cintanegara)

    Cintanegara, the big ambassador being sent by Tun Dr. Mahathir, openly declared that YB Elizabeth Wong did not have to resign because YB Elizabeth Wong was an innocent people. Thank you, Cintanegara!

  75. #75 by Jeffrey on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 5:07 pm

    At least Nazri Abdul Aziz, Minister in Prime Minister’s Department makes sense to say “I sympathise with the executive councillor, this thing should have not happened as she the people’s representative and she had been performing her duties.Therefore, to foil what she has done for the community in this manner is not good. But I hope her spirits (remain strong) and she will not bother about what has happened.”

    Contrast to Home Minister Hamid who was quoted as saying “PKR has a lot of problematic people and they should settle their problems first before deciding to become the people’s representatives in Parliament or even in the state assembly. Well, if she is the victim…I do not know… she is entitled to make a police report and the police will investigate. You may take naked photos in your private home, but you have to make sure the the public will not get it. In this case it is too early to say who is responsible.”

    He leaves it open that “who is responsible” which could also be the victim when he says “….but you have to make sure the the public will not get it…”.

    Being photographed in the nude in privacy of one’s home is not against any law.

    However distributing photos without the other’s knowledge is likely an offence – either invasion of privacy/outrage of modesty, and terms of law breaking Home Minister should make sure that the person who distributed the photos is apprehended and punished because he broke the law.

    That is the criminal law aspect.

    Moral aspect is a different issue. Here again people have different take depending whether their minds and outlook is cast in conservative or liberal mould.

    This pertains to fitness for continuance of office as state councillor. I wonder what is PR’s partner, PAS’s take is on this issue.

  76. #76 by Onlooker Politics on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 5:12 pm

    DAP is a political party which believes in universal secularism. Therefore DAP should be much more tolerant to such divisive moral issue as immoral sex.

    In fact, immoral sex is something very difficult to be given an accurate definition within the Malaysian context. While the fundamental Moslems, fundamental Christians, fundamental Confucian followers, or fundamental Buddhists may set a very high moral standard for their respective followers to abide to, they are other group of Malaysian people who may not be over-concerned about the norm to be followed in respect of the so-called decent sexual life. It may not be difficult for us to find that nowadays there are many secular Chinese Malaysians who insist that they don’t have to get married until their female companion has gotten pregnant. If YB Elizabeth Wong is one of the person from the secular group, it is almost meaningless for Khir Toyo to make a request for her to resign from the official post based on the Islamic moral standard, since such a moral standard is irrelevant to majority Malaysian people who adopt a different set of moral norm than Islam.

    Therefore, the moral issue here shall not be turned into a political issue in Malaysia because all Malaysian people live in midst of moral differences and cultural diversities in terms of private life. However, the rule of law shall be made universal for all Malaysians to comply with in each and every time throughout the whole year since it is the basic foundation for Malaysia to come into its very existence as a nation of Constitutional Monarchy with Parliamentary Democracy!

  77. #77 by Bobster on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 5:20 pm

    Elizabeth’s case is different from both CJ and Chua SL. Private photos were taken and distributed without her consent while she was sleeping. She has been victimized by her political enemy.

    Whereas CJ is married without consent from formal wife and legally wrong. How can pagar-makan-padi be allowed to become CJ of the country?

    Chua may be morally wrong in his private life and the family still accepted him. He is answerable to his family and not the country as this got nothing to do with his formal ministerial post. He too a victim of his political enemy as such till todate he still got my support though I voted opposition always.

    Chua SL still among the better MCA top guns who dares to speak up compare to some coconut-tree-impersonator eg Ong Tee Kiat, Liow Tiong Lai, Yen Yen, Chew Monetary Fund, Koh Tsu Koon etc.

    If Elizebeth was forced to resign by any party, Najib and CJ should tender their resignation too as they are tainted with Statutory Declarations/accusations against them by so many individuals/NGOs/parties.

    P/S: Anyway, even if SL became MCA chairman one day, I’ll still vote opposition as the party tainted with too much garbage and link to UMMO

  78. #78 by Jeffrey on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 5:28 pm

    Dear Moderator,

    Godfather said in his posting Today at 16: 35.02 (32 minutes ago) “PR doesn’t need to do what the crapshooting lawyer is recommending… Take off your blinkers, crapshooter.”

    I would like your advice on rules of engagement on this blog.

    What Godfather has done is not to address artguments or issues by themselves but side-track with name calling like “crapshooter” to ridicule a certain position as “crap” without addressing the substantive issues a or contradicting cogently why the position put forward is wrong!

    It is not that I mind what Godfather does. I may even welcome his continuance.

    However I would wish to know the rules by which you, as Moderator, would enforce when you moderate this blog so that I know the limits and boundaries by which I could respond or reciprocate, as a matter of self defence, to another poster’s repeated “attack the messenger ploy” of throwing of unsavoury titles and names to cover a lack of substance in his own position to discredit another.

    At least we should observe the principle here of what is sauce for goose is sauce for gander here in this blog. :)

    [Commentators are urged to respect the blog and visitors by not descending to the personal level. Attack the message by all means but not the messenger – except for the professional cybertroopers, which is not relevant here. – Admin]

  79. #79 by AhPek on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 7:03 pm

    Are you sure you read cintanegara correctly,Onlooker Politics.He is in fact chiding
    FY LIM for suggesting the whole Federal cabinet has to go if Elizabeth is asked to resign.If you read his earlier comment at 14:23:36 he even went to the extent of shaming Elizabeth for ‘allowing’ herself to be photographed like that and as such should immediately tender her resignation.What a shameless nitwit he is and such a bloody twit!

  80. #80 by StevePCH on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 7:06 pm

    If MCA can forgive CSL for an affair, Malaysian should just delete Elizabeth Wong’s photos.

    Whether or not taken with or without consent or knowledge, distributing it to tarnish ones reputation especially someone of such status is a malicious political attack.

    For me the argument of being devout or likewise freethinker does not arise in this case. “God fearing souls” ask for forgiveness, mistakes can be made. Especially for such an attractive lady like Elizabeth, being unmarried yet, she is exposed to all these.

    For me, she does not need to quit. Corrupt and corrupting People like barking Toyol should just shut up.

  81. #81 by StevePCH on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 7:09 pm

    also, beware of cintanegara and eunuch sochenghai. mentality same as toyol .

  82. #82 by Godfather on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 8:54 pm

    In every class – whether it is kindergarten, primary school, secondary school or university – there is always a student sitting in the front row who likes to show off, who puts his hand up every time the teacher has a question. When the teacher gives the question to someone else, this show-off would be upset, and would mutter things like “everyone knows the answer” or would try to clarify what everyone else says in a rather long-winded way.

    The rest of the students would throw harmless objects like erasers or paper aeroplanes at this show-off, and they would perpetually remember all the antics of this show-off. The show-off, on the other hand, would complain to the teacher each time he thinks that he has been unfairly treated or bullied by others in the class. However, all these – the throwing of harmless objects, the crackling of laughter each time this show-off stumbles, the so-called bullying – are truly harmless for there is no real intention to throw this show-off out of the class.

    A minor irritant which the rest of the students (us) have learnt to live with. It is called “life”.

  83. #83 by distantmalay on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 9:04 pm

    Queer Toyol, since when is sex a crime ??????

    however, the BIG BIG difference between Elizabeth Wong and Chua Soi Lek is, one is a SINGLE woman, the other is a MARRIED man.

    the similarity is, both were betrayed…smells of money

  84. #84 by katdog on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 10:24 pm

    I’ve said it before and i’ll say it again. Let BN have Perak. Let them have Kedah and Selangor as well if they want. They will only be digging themselves further into their graves.

    The more fragile their hold on the state, the more money and ‘kickbacks’ they will need to give to the reps in order for them to remain loyal.

    The more money given in this manner, the less there will be to go around to the actual rakyat. And given the economic turmoil, thats not going to be a very smart thing to do to the rakyat. The people were willing to turn a blind eye to the excesses of the government during the periods of rapid growth when there is plenty of money going around. But not now.

  85. #85 by waterfrontcoolie on Monday, 16 February 2009 - 11:15 pm

    cintanegara, how come you have forgotten the MB of Melaka who raped the underage girl? He was left scotch-free by your super-ego and some innocent man landed in jail. Here is your measure of YOUR Morality. basically you have run out of all rationality in thinking and ideas, so don’t waste the space here.
    As for Zak… did Anwar failed you a promise some where along the process?

  86. #86 by computation on Tuesday, 17 February 2009 - 12:02 am

    \Do you know the Home Minister of a tiny country didn’t resign when the suspected terrorist escaped from a prison? What a shame….despite so call ‘tight security’, the guy still able to slip through\ cintanegara

    what has that particular minister not resigning got anything
    to do with this issue here? the police here still haven’t
    investigated satisfactorily the recent death of the
    indian youth in custody. has the malaysian home minister
    by the way the suspected terrorist you mentioned
    above was a so called \muslim terrorist\.
    and that is exactly the kind of thing the tiny country
    hates. and if you have read there was a recent case
    of a singaporean malay \muslim\ who wanted to bomb
    the changi naval base. and that is why singapore does
    not allow the malays to rise to certainl levels in the
    armed forces. because there is always this
    tendency for the \muslims\ to lose their way
    and not be ale to differentiate right from wrong.

    i think you are unable to differentiate between sense and
    nonsense. your posts are just ridiculous.

  87. #87 by computation on Tuesday, 17 February 2009 - 12:04 am

    i don’t know why in my above post the
    quote marks ” appear as \ …….

  88. #88 by computation on Tuesday, 17 February 2009 - 12:06 am

    even now you have malay muslim policeman
    begging for their lives in the kangaroo
    courts of malaysia. one day you might fall into
    the hands of this wickedness. the people you
    “defend” might leave you to the dogs. just as these
    malay policeman have been.

  89. #89 by computation on Tuesday, 17 February 2009 - 12:10 am

    what good is the malaysian prime minister?
    under his “watch” (not tha he has been
    watching anything seeing that he is always
    sleeping) malaysia has slid down. corruption
    has gotten worse. economy is worse.
    what is so fantastic about the prime minister?
    look at the deputy prime minister.
    instead of clearing his name of the very serious
    rumours about him he is busy engineering
    backdoor takeovers. whats so fantastic about him?
    whats so fantastic about any of the UMNO
    “leaders” anyway?

  90. #90 by computation on Tuesday, 17 February 2009 - 12:13 am

    with regards
    all this money that the deputy prime minister
    is announcing that will be handed “directly”
    to school boards and christian missionary boards,
    the question is : whose money is it? and is the money being
    given directly to individuals on the board? is this

  91. #91 by computation on Tuesday, 17 February 2009 - 12:16 am

    of course everyone can hardly fail to overlook
    the fact that sometime prior to all this hooha
    about the nude pictures of eliabeth wong,
    a study was released concluding that people
    apparently feel that politicians with “morality”
    issues are not adequate to lead…

    boring. so damn freaking boring.

  92. #92 by Jeffrey on Tuesday, 17 February 2009 - 6:08 am

    In any class it is only proper we give the teacher the respect by asking what is his/her discipline rules and the boundaries – before we go and start throwing harmless objects or cackle in laughter. At least the courtesy given, lest it be said we have not asked for permission.

  93. #93 by Yee Siew Wah on Tuesday, 17 February 2009 - 1:49 pm

    Heard the greedy traitor Hee has resigned. If true, then good riddance!! Another by election la.
    This time PKR component parties must work together and whacked this BN mamak MB “Z” till kingdom comes.
    It will be amazing to see another by election.
    Mr.C4 must be shitting inside his pants by now.
    For Eliz Wong, hope she will not resign. Although i am not a BL voter, I know she did a great job for the rakyat and the state of Selangor. Its your private life and the very people who betrayed you in this despicable are worst that prostitutes. That racialistic, evil and “pendatang” KT should be the one to resign instead. This bum has zero morals and stinks to the core in his words and actions. A sure suspect behind this despicable episode. Anwar must reject Aliz resignation.
    I repeat, Eliz dont resign. Move on with your good work.

  94. #94 by miko on Wednesday, 18 February 2009 - 10:13 pm

    Liz could have been your sister, mom, auntie, your grand-mom !
    If you are not blind, you would have seen too much naked women on the net !
    Even without those picture of naked women, your “super brain” would have would scan and created all you so lust for !
    Call that a shame! For goodness sake, all of us were born naked ! Maybe you and your kinds were probably born fully clothed !
    So when you see a naked woman what went on thro’ your mind, do you lust…hope the next one you see is not your mom’s or your sis or even your own daughter’s
    I havent seen the picture but I am quite sure she is as natural as your mom and why should she be ashamed of her naked body.
    Maybe You have never seen a naked woman ? If I am wrong, did your mind goes *** when you see one…. Shame on you ! and those who wanted to capitalize with a naked woman’s picture.
    Stop all these bullshits:- sodomy and naked woman. WE wanted a BETTER MALAYSIA !

  95. #95 by mollyong on Thursday, 19 February 2009 - 3:11 am

    What BN or UMNO did in Perak is like children play ‘masak-masak’. Please ask them this ‘what is the different between BN or UMNO and a snatch thief? Snatch people thing in a cruelliest way and they are very mean like big Bad Wolf. The leader should be the incoming PM.

  96. #96 by hangtuahjebatkasturi on Thursday, 19 February 2009 - 4:58 pm

    Face the reality! PR lost Perak just as BN lost it last time. PR made a mess of Perak and now still want to cling to power via the Speaker… the only Indian speaker in the country. Obviously, Sivakumar is not extending the same courtesy the new MB is giving. BN could easily garner majority support for the ousting of the speaker even without any sitting. Please…Do not play tecnical here! The fact is… PR is now a minority. SO just pack up your stuff and go fly kite or something! Or do you want the Sultan to tell the speaker to get lost? Please… do it the respectful way!

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