Unscheduled medical graduates say “No”


YB Datuk Liow Tiong Lai,
Minister Of Health,
24 December 2008

Dear Respected YB Datuk Liow Tiong Lai,

Re : Oppose to 18 months Credit Transfer Programme into Local Government Universities For Unscheduled Medical Graduates

With reference to the above mentioned subject, we would like to bring to your kind attention that we the majority unscheduled medical graduates opposed to the idea of 18 months Credit Transfer programme.

2. We came to know that a meeting on 16 December 2008 with yourself to discuss about the problems faced by our students to do a credit transfer (such as unable to get a university admission, too expensive to transfer etc).So after we organized an urgent meeting with many of our fellow friends, we have decided not to attend this meeting as from the first we had said we are unable to accept a credit transfer and opposed it. We had spent many years with our own money for our studies and still ending up jobless and our parents are still paying for our loans to study before.

3. We can tell you for sure that only a handful of this (250 or more) graduates are able to do such transfer as maybe they are financially stable or its on their own will (which we will not stop them as its their own rights) but we ( the remaining 220 graduates and more ) who are poor, oppressed and frustrated are not prepared for such transfer that is unacceptable.We also found that such credit transfer is welcomed by some people/agents for their own personal interest.We still stick to our proposal for all the Unrecognised Graduates (almost the same proposal made by former Health Minister Datuk Chua Jui Meng in 2002) that is to absorb immediately all the unrecognised Graduates into the government service as housemanship without the qualifying examination under the supervision of Consultants, Specialists or Senior Doctors and till such proposal is accepted, the problem of Unrecognised Graduates will still remain and the problem will not been solved.

4. We also regret that even this proposal was put to youself by many of our friends before, you still choose to ignore it.The Prime Minister had been so hardworking to overcome the unemployment issue in Malaysia and we hope he would see on our plight and we feel if our proposal is not met, the case of Unrecognised Professionals unemployed will be a main issue soon. So we humbly request to yourself to reconsider our proposal and please we can’t accept the idea of Credit Transfer to a local Government universities at this moment even if the dateline for such transfer is prolonged, PTPTN loans arranged or the duration of 1 1/2years reduced as its unacceptable for us as we had already went through many years as jobless, many years in medical schools.many frustrations and it will be more time and energy wasted doing this transfer. Why can’t the Government take us and train us during the government service please?

5. We apologise if we had said anything wrong here and hope yourself will sincerely try to help and solve this matter as this is a National issue which need an immediate action,Thank You Datuk.

Yours Truly,

Dr.Kartik and Dr.Chia,
(Unscheduled Medical Graduates)

ccYAB Perdana Menteri Malaysia
YAB Timbalan Perdana Menteri Malaysia
Malaysian Medical Council

  1. #1 by limkamput on Thursday, 25 December 2008 - 3:45 pm

    I read with amusement your letter to the Health Minister. First, I think you fellows need to think clearly and write coherently when presenting your case to the government. What is this “we”; students from unscheduled universities? And who are these “our students”? We are already fast emerging as a third world country. So please don’t make it worse.

    You fellows have entered unscheduled universities with your eyes wide open. No one has forced you to study in those universities in the first place. Having done that, why are you blaming the whole world other than your own follies?

    Your profession is not just about unemployment of “Unrecognised Professionals”. The issue is wider than that. It is about proper certification to ensure minimal standard. I am aware that there are doctors from “recognised universities” whose professional standards are probably in doubt. This would be a seprate issue that the government must tackle.

  2. #2 by Saint on Thursday, 25 December 2008 - 4:06 pm

    Unrecognized doctors need to further their studies in “recognized institutions” to solve the problem. If this is not possible, go back to the country of study. You must be recognized there. Become a useful individual, instead of knocking once’s head with the “mountain”. When times are “more favorable”; you can always come back. Staying unemployed, wastes away your expertise and your progress. GOOD LUCK.

  3. #3 by sheriff singh on Thursday, 25 December 2008 - 5:11 pm

    Not that I am unsympathetic on this Christmas Day to all your plights but reading this letter of appeal or complaint or whatever makes me convinced that you fellows really are not up to the mark and need to go for further training and education to ensure that the general public will be treated by competent doctors.

    You seem to threaten and blame everyone including the government as if your problems were created by everyone else but yourselves. We don’t owe you anything and you should all stop complaining and whinning and do something real fast to improve yourselves so that you can be gainfully employed.

    No one has “oppressed” you. If you happen to be “poor and frustrated” we emphatise with you but does this mean we should recognise all of you out of sympathy?

    It has been many years since you all graduated and remained unemployed and idle, so alot of experience and knowledge would have been lost too. Dare we let you all loose to treat the general public even under supervision?

    If you all had taken action years ago to get yourselves recognised through further studies at recognised institutions, you would not be still complaining today but would have already been gainfully employed. You all are responsible for your idleness and inaction which does not improve your circumstances in any way.

    Don’t force the government and the profession to blindly recognise you because of your self-made predicaments, but prove to us you have the standards and competency required to practice. Don’t expect standards to be compromised to suit you. We don’t need to help you but we will, but you all too have to play your part and stop playing hardball and remaining stubborn as you are not helping yourselves.

    So grow up and behave like “doctors”.

    And stop calling yourselves “Dr” in this country unless you are qualified and recognised.

    And Merry Christmas to all of you too.

  4. #4 by hadi on Thursday, 25 December 2008 - 6:03 pm

    I fail to understand this government. We have people with the qualification and potential, so why can’t the government take them and train them, set the standard and if they don’t make the grade, tell them sorry. But the main point here is to help them after they have tried helping themselves by getting the education. Stop talking rubbish on recognition!!! Is our local medic faculty here is fantastic? Health minister please look in the mirror and do you know how to solve problem? Real mental block government, instead of reducing the burden but instead creating a lot more problem. Who to blame if they decide to be medical terrorists?
    Is the government having problem with money? Not that I can think of, if they can make the decision to procure super duper eurocopter with such exorbitant price, just a case in point and many other thing that need not to be mention here. Wake up Pak Menteri if you are still sleeping.

  5. #5 by k1980 on Thursday, 25 December 2008 - 9:26 pm

    This is the consequence of having a non-medical officer as Health Minister. He knows nuts

  6. #6 by raven77 on Thursday, 25 December 2008 - 10:01 pm

    Basic problem….Minister of Health doesnt have the political power to ask the MMC to go screw themselves…..instead of hiring … from India, Pakistan and Indonesia where most most of the unscheduled universities are located…..he should come up wih a program to absorb Malaysians thru some training scheme…..

  7. #7 by sinnerconman on Thursday, 25 December 2008 - 10:51 pm

    The minister has no balls and this is a common term used by the chinese on this fellow. When “umnoputra graduates” could not be employed, the moronic and racist government did everything to help them in the public sector by absorbing them after spending huge amount on the unqualified, and here the moronic and the corrupted government did not spend a single cent for these medical graduates just because they studied from this so called “unrecognized” medical colleges, many of them are world famous, and now tormenting and oppressing these “doctors” with this and that, adding more conditions “trying to help them”.

    Malaysia does not have enough medical doctors and the government instead of signing contracts with foreign medical doctors who do not know a single word of the local lingo, sign contract with these local doctors after giving them training for four to five years and then post them to the rural areas where they can serve the poor and the needy.

    The more we let these graduates rot, the more we are losing our brain. Time awaits no man and the government must act immediately to benefit the people and the country and be proactive that these graduates must be posted for training within 3 months after their qualification – freshly graduates with full of patriotic zest to serve the people.

  8. #8 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 25 December 2008 - 11:08 pm

    limkamput Says:

    Today at 15: 45.55 (7 hours ago)
    I read with amusement your letter to the Health Minister. First, I think you fellows need to think clearly and write coherently when presenting your case …”

    Poor verbal and writing skills. Unlike mine.

    Although I had only a Kg. Attap education, I was able to serve the government and retired after some 20 years and a long service medal given to me by the Agong.

  9. #9 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 25 December 2008 - 11:11 pm

    “No one has forced you to study in those universities in the first place. Having done that, why are you blaming the whole world other than your own follies?” limkamput

    Hey! Don’t be like that la!! They got no choice whaaat???

  10. #10 by raven77 on Thursday, 25 December 2008 - 11:17 pm

    Basic problem….Minister of Health doesnt have the political power to ask the MMC to take a hike…..instead of hiring monkeys from India, Pakistan and Indonesia where most most of the unscheduled universities are located…..he should come up wih a program to absorb Malaysians thru some training scheme…..

  11. #11 by limkamput on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 12:08 am

    Undergrad2 @ wannabe, there is a difference between being sympathetic and being professional. I certainly do not agree with people creating sh!t everywhere and then expect the government to clean it. If the government were to help these people from unscheduled universities, may I know when would be the end? There are always choices – like those who can not make a living in Malaysia, they can choose to migrate and earn minimal wage in NY. If a person can’t get into a qualified medical school, he/she should perhaps choose to become a half baked lawyer.

  12. #12 by limkamput on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 12:52 am

    If the government is “selective” or even “racist” in recognising medical universities, that is a separate issue altogether. We should not fight racism and parochialism with our own prejudice.

    When The National Registration Department put a write up in its web site in horrible English, the whole world condemned them. Here we have a group of “doctors” who can’t even write intelligently and coherently but somehow we are so sympathetic toward them. I am doubtful they have gained the right to be housemen. Having said that, I am also acutely aware that they are probably many half baked doctors from recognised/scheduled universities now practising in our midst. As I have said in my first posting, this is a separate issue which the government must tackle. We can’t justify a wrong with another wrong, can we?

  13. #13 by limkamput on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 12:58 am

    sorry, … Having said that, I am also acutely aware that there are probably many half baked doctors from recognised/scheduled universities now practising in our midst.

  14. #14 by ravisomas on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 6:50 am

    We should not dwell on what happened in the past ie. why studied at unrecognised college etc. The question is how are we going to help the MALAYSIANS who are qualified doctors. The government makes so many decision on special circumstances and this should be one of the time the government need to help this deserving MALAYSIANS. Furthermore, Malaysia is facing shortage of doctors in the government sector and this would be one way to overcome the problem.

  15. #15 by monsterball on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 7:14 am

    If the government is serious in getting the best with right attitudes..brains and qualification…I tend to agree with limkamput.
    However…….our government have a long track record on race and religion dirty politics.
    So…are the 220 so call poor from other races?
    Yes..it will be nice to know the compositions of the 220..what races.
    UMNO is capable to be that cruel and cynical…when come to be fair to all.
    And if well mixtures of all Malaysians…..applying tough conditions…to those 220 that maybe well below par…to pay and feel the pains of their parents….paying fees…..so buck up and learn…..is a good last resort.
    This means..they can study as long as they like…without qualifying…which many do not qualify at all….just play a fool and waste time.
    This applies to all sorts of students…but doctors..engineers…lawyers are serious degrees…to have he bes brains and right attitudes….for without the right attitudes…all degree holders can make nonsense out of of lives…buildings…and laws.
    yet with right attitudes is most important to absorb knowledge.
    When doing practical and growing out…practicing his/her skills with principles and dignities in life….will be their ultimate success.
    Everyone fail and should never be afraid of failing…….know that and not repeat again the same failure.
    I encourage my new workers not to be afraid to fail…but never to repeat it again.
    But in those professions…failing is not an option….so housemanship…following and seeing one with years of experiences….are in fact….most important and those experience professional teachers should be tough and tell how good those new graduates are..using brain and commonsense with their knowledge.
    Again…..do we have good practical teachers in every profession?
    This is entirely different from study and be a star student.
    Good results count at the end of everything.a person do.
    I seem to see…overseas trained and recognized professionals are vast different from locals.
    UMNO knows that very well.
    All their children go overseas to best Universities…yet our Universities keep going down and down in grades.
    Is not UMNO a bunch of hypocrites…with years and years..playing race and religion in Universities too?
    So who is wrong? The students…not given enough good and proper lectures…or the government applying stick and rot ….like good parents?
    Like I said….UMNO have a track record…lousy management….but clever to fish for votes and always blame others…for their failures.
    We need to change the government to know the truth of it all.
    Right now….it is a simple rich country to manage…made so complicated by UMNO purposely…in everything…anything..to stay in control.
    That’s their style…Malaysians know…too well.

  16. #16 by Jeffrey on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 8:52 am

    Dr.Kartik and Dr.Chia have suggested thst the government “absorbs immediately all the unrecognised Graduates into the government service as housemanship without the qualifying examination” ie MQE (Medical Qualifying Examination).

    This is begging the question : you have to be “qualified” first before being absorbed into government service as housemanship and not the other way around ie to be absorbed in and from there learn to be qualified gaining your experience at the expense and perils of patients!

    How does the argument hold that you have the brains and ability unharnessed otherwise wasted just because some unscheduled medical college passes you when the standard of training of these colleges is the issue?

    Whilst society at large ought to allow people to realise dreams to be anything including doctors – and of course harness their training/skills, when they are “deserving” rather than leaving them unemployed – these objectives have to be balanced against and cannot override the overarching imperative of public interest that we cannot subject public health to the perils of half baked doctors just b ecuse of the “shortage of doctors” argument…..

    So if you want to advance your Cause, you have no show why you are “deserving” and for that you have to demonstrate convincingly:-

    1. why the medical institutions training you are unfairly categorised “unsheduled” a euphemism for “unrecognised” and “un-accredited”. Why is it for example a private university in Ukraine or Jogjakarta or even Darwin that is (say) recognised by the World Health Organisation but not the Malaysian Medical Council (MMC)? The public issue here is MMC and the government’s criteria why it recognises this uni and not another. Is it transparent and reasonable, the criteria? Can you attack successfully th eir criteria? It is that issue that got Natural Resources and Environment Deputy Minister Sothinathan into trouble when he questioned MMC’s Datuk Dr Mohamed Ismail Merican/MOH why they withdrew recognition of Crimea State Medical University (CSMU) after Dec 31, 2005. Here it is more interesting: Govt recognised CSMU before 2005, so can you show bad faith why the govt and MMC withdrew recognition of say CSMU after Dec 2005?

    2. why the MQE testing on theory & clinical that you unscheduled graduates have to sit and pass is not a fair and reliable screening hurdle. Is it not true that MQE is actually the final-year exam for medical undergraduates in UM, UKM and USM?

    Upon premise public interest in having qualified doctors canot be compromised, on the question of what really is or ought to be benchmark for entry of qualified doctors, are you saying that (a) the MQE final-year exam for our local medical undergraduates in UM, UKM and USM is unrealistically too high or (b) that there is bias against unscheduled graduates sitting for this exam by local medical examiners or that (c) whether you would become a qualified and good doctor cannot be asessed by the MQE or its other alternative, the one off Conjoint Examination? Which is exactly the complaint and can you substantiate?

  17. #17 by frustrated doctor on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 10:14 am

    This is what I wrote before : http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2008/04/13/unrecognised-doctors/ . You can see the English is perfect. So stop harping on the English when basically all MRSM graduates who enter medical studies through the back door of matriculation have hopeless English. So there goes most of your arguments about quality etc.

    What do you do when the govt only takes in a handful of non bumis who mostly have politicial connections into the govt U, and you don’t have the cash to study in our so called recognised U. You don’t put your dreams aside; and your parents sell all their gold, jewellery and land to make the little bit needed to put you in a so-called unrecognised U. That is how the story begins. Mind you, before I went, I informed the govt and even got a Sijil Sokongon from Bahagian Biasiswa Kementerian Pelajaran Malaysia.

    However, here is a failure by the govt to do the recognition process. The MMC themselves have said that they do the recognition based on the number of medical students in the college. Not the standard of the U! How come the MMC DG and other officials went on a recognition spree to India in February with the agents? Doesn’t that already sound fishy! When the credit transfer was announced, the students after obtaining a letter from MMC; had to go and approach agents to be placed in a recognised U. Fishy again! Finally, when less than 10 got in, the meeting was held 2 weeks ago in which the Health Minister officially said the transfer program was a failure.

    Mind you, there were even MARA students who had been sent by the govt to Japan in the group. So, when even the govt sends students to an unrecognised U, who are you all to blame the students? Look at this as a waste of human resources especially when there are no doctors in Govt Hospitals in Sabah & Sarawak. Of course, the govt doesn’t mind taking in foreigners who don’t know any Malay to fill up the vacancies as long as they are from Muslim countries. Soon they will be given citizenship also to increase the Bumi count for UMNO!

    Why the silence when Manipal graduates are doing their basic years in India in an institution which is unrecognised by the Indian Medical Council itself? Is it because most of the parents are well off and well connected. The story here is basically about the govt not helping the oppressed. This is what the Hindraf struggle was about. But, the govt just called them terrorists and locked them up.

    When I graduated in Indonesia, my local course mates could immediately either practise in a govt hospital or open a private clinic or even do specialist courses. When a Malaysian falls sick there, do you ask if the doctor comes from a college which is recognised here before treatment? What Chua Jui Meng & the cabinet proposed in 2002 was to take the doctors in for 1 year of probation, 2 years of housemanship and 3 years as a MO. But that was too difficult for MMC to tolerate as they will loose their cash cows of recognition.

    Come on BN, when you can push through bills in parliament; why can’t you push through a bill abolishing the article 13 of the Medical Act and do the humane thing of solving this problem. Or why can’t the MMC have a fair common exam for all grads instead of this scheduled and unscheduled list. Is it because then they can’t do all their manipulations. I had a friend who passed the QT when he even didn’t know what his main case in the clinical exam was about. Later, I found out that he paid someone in MMC to change it to a pass. Maybe that is why I didn’t get through – the quota for passes had been breached especially with cases of money play. Most probably that is why it takes MMC nearly 2 months to announce the pass list after each QT sitting.

    Enough is enough. To the 2 doctors, thank you for writing in. It has always been me all this while. To the others, look deeper into the matter and stop with the ungraceful comments such as “you should have known you were getting into an unrecognised U”. What is done is done. What is to be done to solve the problem will be the more pertinent question.

    I will also cut and paste other relevant articles I have written before which will illuminate the matter better.

  18. #18 by etacude on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 10:48 am

    “why can’t the MMC have a fair common exam for all grads instead of this scheduled and unscheduled list. Is it because then they can’t do all their manipulations.” – frus doc.

    Yes you are right, once they are gradually moving away from quotas, they hv to use other dirty tactics…

    An extract from: http://unwantedcitizen.blogspot.com/2008/06/exams-and-self-examination.html
    …A day before the examinations were due to begin in the week ahead. There was a sudden mad stampede of medical students to the general clinic. Seemingly, we were to be tested on the techniques of using asthma inhalers and obtaining consent for a major surgery. The rumors surfaced after a prayer session in the college surau.

    It was to be kept a secret – restricted to within a certain community. Our Muslim colleagues were of course not as selfish and racist as their lecturers who leaked the questions.

    …The external examiners from Hong Kong and United Kingdom must have been so impressed with our apparent familiarity…

    …Along with the 160 of us then medical students were eight medical students from unrecognized universities. They too were sitting for the final MBBS examinations with us but without the aid and help that we received. They failed miserably, needless to say – all eight of them. Frankly speaking, there little possibility they could have passed the examination on sheer hard work alone.

  19. #19 by frustrated doctor on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 10:49 am

    There is a point that is conveniently being swept under the rug – how come foreigners from unrecognised Univs are being allowed to do their specialist courses in the govt Univs. Are foreigners (especially from Sudan – you have tons of them in UM) more special than our Malaysians. They are given temporary licencing certs during the course of their studies which allows them to treat patients. Ismail’s story of competent doctors for the rakyat is crap when looked in this light. Doesn’t this just smack you of double talk. A friend of mine who is from an unrecognised U in India is still in limbo but his own classmate who is an Indian National is doing his specialisation here. How do you think he will feel about it. He will look at it as the only reason he is being denied is the unfortunate reason that he is a Malaysian. Don’t you feel proud to be a Malaysian now?

    From all my posts above, you will see that I have proved that the exam system is done arbitrarily. Don’t make sweeping remarks that ‘if you are good enough you will not have anything to fear’. No university will treat outsiders on the same level of their own. You will always be a scrape goat to show off their students (even to the level of justifying passing their useless students). Those who have never sat for the QT, please refrain from bringing it up. UM used to only pass 1 or 2 students out of 10 every year the QT was done there. Suddenly after the 30 doctors sued, they passed all 10 who went for the course there – a 100% passing rate for the unrecognised doctors. Don’t tell me that the unrecognised chaps got smarter overnight. I think UM just knew what they were doing was wrong and decided to get rid of the problem quickly. However, those in UKM & USM were still given the same ratio -1-2:10

    I have also shown that the recognition is done arbitrarily. A solution, then the MMC should remove all recognition/derecognition issues and let everyone return and; as the Health Minister first proposed – take everyone in after a period of retraining. Forget about a common exam for all – our Malaysians can’t conduct a decent exam anywhere. The only criteria should be that the medical U where they returned from should be recognised in the country of origin. If not every chap could just go overseas and open a bogus U and return without any studies.

    Lets not forget that housemanship is a time of supervised training – you are not an autonomous doctor. You are accessed then and not given any decision making roles. Your time can be extended if you perform below par in the respective depts. We all know that we learn most of our stuff during the housemanship years. So, welcome doctors returning (hey they saved the country a huge cost in educating them), have a period of adaptation/retraining and take them in when adequate and make sure they perform or else increase their time in the respective depts till they know the workings of each dept in depth. After all, the MMC is doing something like that with the first batch that graduated from Malacca Manipal by having a seperate form for the HODs to access them. However, if you ask MMC about it they will deny it as the form in under the OSA
    frustrated doctor I 06.20.05 – 9:12 pm I

  20. #20 by limkamput on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 11:07 am

    Don’t talk nonsense. What you are saying, in the nut shell, is if there are shortcomings, cheating, racism, and manipulation in the present “recognition system”, it should rightly extended to you and your fellows graduates in the same category.

    It is not just their level of English proficiency. I am doubtful of their thinking skill and their discerning ability to put forward convincing arguments supporting their cause. I expect doctors to do better than that.

  21. #21 by undergrad2 on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 11:50 am

    Now look! Who is being incoherent and unintelligible? I”d expect even someone with a Kg. Attap education to do better than this.

  22. #22 by undergrad2 on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 12:03 pm

    “I am doubtful they have gained the right to be housemen” limkamput

    This is a classic example of direct translation from Malay to English. You need to do better than that if you want to write good English. Think in English and write in English.

    But I would have to give it to you. The draft must have been vetted and approved by both writers. I suspect it is an attempt at some compromise and as a result it is weak structurally and readers like Limkamput with his MBA from the U.S. is unable to understand what is written.

    But as far as Limkamput is concerned it is like the pot calling the kettle black.

  23. #23 by frustrated doctor on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 12:06 pm

    Actually what I’m saying is to remove the various restrictions being placed on unrecognised doctors in a political system which serves to just perpetuate authoritatian rule while resembling a democracy. I think Dr.Kartik and Dr.Chia have shown thinking skills and discerning abilities by being able to write a 4 pointed letter to the Health Minister although there were grammatical errors.

    Please understand, there doctors have families with children. They are not young now to just leave everything and spend 1 & 1/2 years undergoing a training and then attempting a corrupt exam. Already 2 one-off training schemes by the govt were failures as they were set-ups to just fail the doctors. Who is going to pay their house and car loans during this time? Even if loans are given, at a time when there is massive economic slowdown; you are just saddling them with debt.

    It’s high time PR takes over and changes the situation for these doctors

  24. #24 by undergrad2 on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 12:07 pm

    “Dear Respected YB Datuk Liow Tiong Lai??”

    A one-word response – LOL.. Sorry.

  25. #25 by undergrad2 on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 12:24 pm

    I tried reading the letter again.

    If this is the way doctors write, I dread having to choose between mediocre and just plain bad.

  26. #26 by juno on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 1:05 pm

    The salient points as said by Frustrated Doctor holds truth . Its true , education is no more a space where the cross of intelligence and nurture is – its no more an effulgence of national pride to bear and develop. Human resources in this country has become a component to be selective. Be it doctors or other important life saving professions. It looks like Malaysia works more towards a stone age then advance- with surreptitious political involvement in every area where it can manipulate to appease a few as seen http://sjsandteam.wordpress.com/
    I don’t agree to the govt . argument that it is doing the best for its people. When bills like the DNA, which involves one’s reputation , or death can be sailed like a westerly wind — we have just qualified to be despotic- no wonder we are at the bottom of world counts

  27. #27 by undergrad2 on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 1:24 pm

    “democracy. I think Dr.Kartik and Dr.Chia have shown thinking skills and discerning abilities by being able to write a 4 pointed letter to the Health Minister although there were grammatical errors.”

    Listen up, Limkaput! This runs counter to what you said.

  28. #28 by sheriff singh on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 3:56 pm

    “Dear Respected YB Datuk Liow Tiong Lai”. You say you respect him but then you all voted to boycott a scheduled meeting with him to discuss things. Then another “doctor” says Liow is not qualified to be Health Minister as he is not a doctor. Say, you fellows got to get things right and behave properly if you want to make any headway.

    Then you say the system as not fair, biased and full of corruption, and you cite the case of the chap who made a payment to get his pass grade. Then you talk of leaks in the examination processs, manipulations etc etc what else is new here? If you guys got any hard evidence please lodge a proper police and ACA report but making these accusations do not justify any actions to declare all of you to be “qualified”. You have to prove that you are all qualified and competent. Sympathy do not count at all.

    Many professional accountants, achitects, engineers, lawyers etc etc also face this problem of local recognition to practice but they have all managed to solve their problems of recognition. So what is it with all you “doctors”? Come on, take two aspirins, sit down and talk. Go see and twist Samy Vellu with his AIMST or something.

    And stop making veiled threats like “the case of Unrecognised Professionals unemployed will be a main issue soon”. You all planning something?

    One and a half years is not a long time. Just think, if you all took action in June 2007, you would all have completed your courses and will be well on your way in your professions by now. When are you all going to make a firm start? Why are you all waiting for recognitions to be delivered to you on a silver platter? The longer you delay, the more of your learning is lost and the more difficult it will be to get qualified.

    Let us have the list of names of these “doctors” and where they graduated from. Maybe some of them may merit some consideration and maybe not. But hey, be proactive and don’t be so confrontational. Nobody owes you all anything.

  29. #29 by limkamput on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 4:01 pm

    Undergrad2, right in your heart may be you are waiting for me to tell you how this letter ought to be written. But I owe you nothing, so you can wait. Oh yes, the letter contained a few paragraphs, but did it have the “4 points” as mentioned? By the way, are these points relevant and pertinent? Think hard my friends. Most here are mediocre and half baked, not just those in the government.

  30. #30 by Godfather on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 7:06 pm

    Oo la la, now limkamput probably thinks that I am half-baked too. I can only assume that I qualify under his definition of “most here”.

    Those of us who never served the government, nor received any pingat from the Agong can only look on in awe at a towering Malaysian like Limkamput….

  31. #31 by limkamput on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 7:41 pm

    Godfather, you are the exception. Most the time you write sense although you ought to be a little more multi-dimensional, not just stealing and more stealing. One more thing, don’t be too presumptious about me. Don’t listen to someone earning minimal wage in NY.

  32. #32 by undergrad2 on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 8:43 pm


    Yes, limkaput is right.

    You should have a multi-dimentional face – three or four faces connected to your backbone will do the trick. Stop talking about your den of thieves. It is proving to be a distraction to people like Limkamput who has always wanted to enter the den himself and being unable to do so, is angry and jealous of those who did.

    As for his preoccupation with ‘half-baked’ Limkaput has always had this childhood dream of becoming a baker. So let him have his half-baked dream of an idea.

  33. #33 by Godfather on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 8:45 pm

    Wow ! Mr Limkamput puts me in the minority….I am not half-baked. but mono-dimensional. Yes, OK, no more stealing, no more stealing. I will try to be multi-dimensional for Limkamput’s sake. My sifu…..

  34. #34 by Godfather on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 8:48 pm

    UMNO already has a problem with my mono-dimensional character. How can they deal with a multi-dimensional Godfather ?

  35. #35 by undergrad2 on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 8:48 pm

    “Think hard my friends. Most here are mediocre and half baked, not just those in the government.” says the Great One

    Listern up, you guys! You guys are not fit to be writing here. You’re mediocre unlike limkamput whose contribution to king and country has been recognized by the Agong with the same medal after twenty long years that he gave his driver.

  36. #36 by Godfather on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 8:54 pm

    C’mon, Undergrad2, you don’t mean to imply that the medal that my sifu Limkamput got from the Agong was the same medal that the Agong gave to the Agong’s driver. Or was it the same medal that the Agong gave to Limkamput’s driver ?

  37. #37 by undergrad2 on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 9:49 pm

    The Agong’s driver and ‘his’ driver are related. How do you think Limkaput got his long service medal – if not through the recommendation from the Agong’s driver.

  38. #38 by limkamput on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 10:36 pm

    This half baked wannabe from NY is just jealous. i doubt he was given a staff car and a driver before. So please don’t talk about medal given to driver when you don’t even have a driver.

  39. #39 by limkamput on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 10:43 pm

    and don’t insult drivers, they probably have contributed more than “passengers” like you who are just riding on US’s leverage on others particularly the developing countries.

  40. #40 by chin on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 12:11 am

    Well ! I tend to agree with what Limkamput mentioned. Yes we got handful of problems in medical aspect.
    1) There are not enough doctors against the Malaysian population.
    2) Half Baked ! This problem arise almost in every country in the world. If you wanna only Full Baked Doc, think of the pile up bodies in the ER & your Medical Insurance goes willy. In the first place, Its your damn choice to practice medicines in these so called Unschedule colleges or medical schools.
    3) Unschedule medical graduates : 18 months of credit transfer program seems to be fair. Why ? Look, Guys ! We are dealing with a matter of LIFE + HEALTH – DEATH = (Your Hands). You have gone thru a damn long road, yet you have reached a 95% of the final finishing line. DAMN IT ! By all the might, please finish the damn thing.
    4) Reality Check : Common ! This is no Hollywood or Bollywood stuff, Your Papa & Mama spend so much on you just because you wanna be a doctor. Fine! But you end up with a pile of problems with questionable demand. Financial difficulties for the 18 months ? I believe Professional Loans was available from financial institutions. If this is really your problems that you can’t solve, than i must say you are facing with much more problems during private practice. Buying a Ultra sound will cost more than 100K, will that be problem for you in future ? Thats only one of your tools, doc ! Those Hitachi, NEC & Toshiba guys will be happy to see you in the future.
    5) You think the Health Ministry are happy to sign contracts with foreign doctors, Liow Thiong Lai is not a MD, PHD or any DDT at all & thats fact, but he is not an idiot. If the ministry can come up with an 18 months of butt washing, just go thru it. After all, you gonna charge the nation at least RM 25.00 each with consultant fee & a markup of at least 500% for a few generic pills.

  41. #41 by undergrad2 on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 1:16 am

    “So please don’t talk about medal given to driver when you don’t even have a driver.” limkaput

    You got it wrong sweetie! I don’t even have a car. I used to ride on the back of a water buffalo to work.

  42. #42 by raven77 on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 2:37 pm

    Let’s all be pure racists for a change…what is the bumi: non-bumi proportion of drs in this country ….50:50????…..maybe….now look at the composition of the MMC:…

    Council Members

    PRESIDENT – Ex-officio, sec. 3(1)(a)
    Tan Sri Dato’ Seri Dr. Hj. Mohd Ismail Bin Merican

    UNIVERSITI MALAYA – Nominated,sec.3(1)(b)
    Prof. Dr. Ikram Shah Ismail
    Prof. Dr. Lim Chin Theam
    Dato’ Paduka Prof. Dr. Mohd. Amin Jalaludin

    UNIVERSITI KEBANGSAAN MALAYSIA – Nominated, sec. 3(1)(c)
    Prof. Dato’ Dr. Lokman Saim
    Prof. Dr. Abdul Hamid Bin Abdul Rahman
    Prof. Dr. Zaleha Abdullah Mahdy

    UNIVERSITI SAINS MALAYSIA – Nominated,sec.3(1)(c)
    Prof. Dr. Abdul Aziz Baba
    Prof. Dato’ Dr. Wan Mohamad Wan Bebakar
    Prof. Dr. Jafri Malin Datuk Hj. Abdullah

    UNIVERSITI PUTRA MALAYSIA – Nominated, sec. 3(1)(c)
    Prof. Dr. Azhar Md. Zain
    Prof. Dr. Yunus Gul Alif Gul
    Prof. Madya Dr. Sabariah Abdul Rahman

    UNIVERSITI MALAYSIA SARAWAK – Nominated, sec. 3(1)(c)
    Tan Sri Datu Dr. Mohamad Taha Bin Arif
    Prof. Madya Dr. Ahmad Hata Rasit
    Prof. Dr. Henry Rantai Gudum

    UNIVERSITI MALAYSIA SABAH – Nominated, sec. 3(1)(c)
    Prof. Dr. Osman Bin Ali
    Prof. Madya Dr. Ahmad Faris Abdullah
    Prof. Madya Dr. Zainal Arifin Mustapha

    SEMENANJUNG MALAYSIA – Elected, sec. 3(1)(d)
    Dr. David Quek Kwang Leng
    Dato’ Dr. Zaki Morad Mohd. Zaher
    Datuk Dr. Megat Burhainuddin Megat Abdul Rahman
    Datuk Dr. Yeoh Poh Hong
    Dato’ Dr. Abdul Hamid Abd. Kadir
    Prof. Dato’ Dr. Khalid Bin Yusoff
    Dato’ Dr. Mahmud Bin Mohd Nor
    Dato’ Dr. Abu Hassan Asaari Abdullah
    Dr. Milton Lum Siew Wah

    SABAH – Elected, sec. 3(1)(e)
    Dr. Hjh Suzain Bt. Datuk Suhaimi

    SARAWAK – Elected, sec. 3(1)(f)
    Prof. Dr. Sim Kui Hian

    PUBLIC SERVICES – Appointed by Minister, sec. 3(1)(g)
    Datuk Dr. Noor Hisham Bin Abdullah
    Dr. Haji Marzukhi Md. Isa
    Dr. Andrew Kiyu Dawie Usop

    More than 80% of the MMC are Bumis…and believe it or not the MCA…thru our UKM Nutritionist, Yang Berbahagia Liow etc etc is in charge of these jokers. These MCA chaps lost their spine ages ago and are just puppets conning the public. Among the council members are:

    •A paediatric surgeon who used to kill babies from morning till noon before they had to stop him….

    •A lady who was so loose in medical school every male medical student thought she was a gift from God to their early sex starved days

    •An ex DG who approved Manipal, etc just so he could be their CEO

    •A sitting DG who is peddling vaccinations and taken his ex girlfriend as his second wife to boost sales…..

    •A retired pediatrician who only turns up for private cases at his university

    •An MMA official who got elected despite not paying up his fees……

    •An ex Dean who sold off UM’s campus grounds

    •An ex Dean who sat the maximum 6 attempts before he passed the MRCP

    •A psychiatrist who is operating out of a hotel and doesn’t know which hospital his medical students are at any one time

    •A university lecturer who is seen more at the Gleneagles operating theater then in his own hospital

    •A Dean famed for employing only Burmese lecturers at the expense of locals because he cannot stand locals querying his methods all the time….

    •An A&E Dept head who is synonymous with delayed ambulances, building unnecessary buildings to get kickbacks and famed for its lack of urgency..

    •An orthopaedic surgeon who was deeply involved in the FOMEMA scandal…..and used the ill gotten gains to buy lots of properties….

    •An “endocrine” surgeon who got to where he is because he touched Endon’s breast..

    •An endocrinologist who cant speak one proper sentence of English….

    •A neurosurgeon who keeps harping he was the first to do all procedures when they were all done ages ago
    just for the cheap publicity…

    •A cardiologist who just lives on a …jetplane…..

    A political solution may not be the right approach to solve your problems guys……..……

  43. #43 by ENDANGERED HORNBILL on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 6:21 pm

    Parents and students, would-be students would do well to


    What is the quality of unscheduled universities? Why do students insist on going to unscheduled universities, knowing full well the likely consequences….etc. etc. etc..

    I want to be very sure that I am treated only by qualified doctors, whether in public or private hospitals. What are the merits of your appeal? I don’t see any cogent ones here. Of course, there must have been a great deal of history to your grievances which the Minister ought to know since this letter was addressed to him. If you are indeed worth your salt, you guys must continue to pursue the matter aggressively directly with the Ministry.

    Also, ‘Dr.’ Karthik and ‘Dr.’ Chia, you have done a disservice to your unscheduled colleagues by putting forward such a poorly drafted letter which is read by so large a public following of this blog. Some ‘seniors’ should have vetted your awful letter. Look, no personal offense meant here. But you should take a re-look at what you have written.

  44. #44 by riversandlakes on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 6:37 pm

    I don’t understand what this letter is about but Paragraph 5 is downright PATHETIC.

    Criticize all you want. Disagree if you want. What else is democracy about? Why stoop so low as to beg this elected person? Even apologize beforehand.

    Next time, study properly to write a proper letter.

  45. #45 by sheriff singh on Monday, 29 December 2008 - 11:38 am

    These “doctors” have the cheek to tell the government off by DEMANDING the government solve their self-made problems, by taking them all in as housemen. As “housemen”, they would achieve recognition as qualified doctors when there are considerable doubt as to their competency being from unscheduled medical schools.

    Why should the government give in to their demands? What right have they to demand?

    Their letter(s) and their behaviours over the years have merely confirmed their incompetencies and arrogance. There has been nothing concrete put forward to support their case for recognition.

    Yet they DEMAND the government to just recognise them because they are all in a fix and the government should sympathise with their plights.

    Unless there are strong reasons to recognise them, the government should just ignore these ungrateful “doctors” who only know how to DEMAND. They have rebuffed the government’s attempts to help them by saying “No” to all the proposals.

    I say, “enough is enough”. The government should just let them solve their own problems. Don’t waste any more time.

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