Hindraf demo – BN Ministers and leaders should have at least 30% of Toh Kin Woon’s sincerity and honesty

When Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi became the fifth Prime Minister on 30th October 2003, he made the famous pledge to “hear the truth, however unpleasant”, which he had infamously dishonoured in the past four years.

Recently, Abdulah’s pledge to “hear the truth” was ignomiously revised by the Information Minister, Datuk Seri Zainuddin Maidin as applying only to Barisan Nasional leaders and government officials but not to the media , the civil society or the ordinary Malaysian public!

In the past four years, however, Barisan Nasional Ministers and leaders had been afflicted by the “Dare not speak the truth to Pak Lah” syndrome.

This has resulted in the least hands-on Prime Minister in the nation’s history but with the most Ministerial portfolios (trebling as Minister for Finance and Minister for Internal Security) setting a new record in Malaysian political history as a Prime Minister who has lost touch with the national pulse in the shortest time ever since assuming the highest political office of the land.

It is refreshing that in this ocean of distortions, half-truths and downright lies passing off as “truth”, Gerakan Penang State Executive Councillor, Dr. Toh Kin Woon has gloriously broken ranks in a letter to Malayaiakini yesterday declaring that it is the people’s “discontent and unhappiness that will be a greater threat to our country’s peace and stability, rather than the marches, pickets and demonstrations”.

I call on Barisan Nasional Ministers and leaders to have at least 30% of Toh Kin Woon’s sincerity and honesty to speak the truth to the Prime Minister whether about the “Walk for Justice” of 2,000 lawyers organized by the Bar Council for restoration of the independence and integrity of the judiciary; the 40,000-strong Bersih rally in support of electoral reforms for clean, free and fair elections; the 30,000-strong Hindraf demonstration on the socio-economic and cultural plight of the Malaysian Indians particularly the lower strata; or the numerous pickets by the Malaysian Trades Union Congress and trade unions for higher salaries to meet rising costs of living so burdensome to the workers.

So far, there is only one Barisan Nasional leader — a state Exco from Penang -who is prepared to call a spade a spade and tell Abdullah the truth.

Are there no other Barisan Nasional leader, occupying higher and more important government and party positions whether at the national or state level, who could back up Toh Kin Woon to start the process of telling the Prime Minister the truth?

What about MIC’s Samy Vellu, Gerakan’s Datuk Seri Dr. Lim Keng Yaik and Tan Sri Dr. Koh Tsu Koon, MCA’s Datuk Seri Ong Ka Ting and the other three MCA Ministers? Is there none from the Barisan Nasional component parties in Sabah and Sarawak? Is there not a single Umno Minister or leader who could be relied upon to speak the unvarnished truth?

That the syndrome of “Dare not tell Pak Lah the truth” is very advanced and even terminal is highlighted by the refusal of the Minister in the Prime Minister’s Department, Datuk Seri Nazri Aziz yesterday to withdraw and apologise for his offensive and unwarranted slur of the supporters of the Hindraf demonstration in Kuala Lumpur on Sunday as “penyangak” when he said on Tuesday:

“Some 20,000 penyangak (crooks) who participated in the rally would not jeopardise our viewpoint of the entire community.”

Nazri not only compounded the offence he committed by repeating the slur of “penyangak” but also in claiming that his action was vindicated by the Cabinet which discussed the Hindraf demonstration yesterday.

Are there no shadows of Toh Kin Woon among the Ministers and leadership of the Barisan Nasional component parties — or is Toh a completely lone voice in the Barisan Nasional wilderness?

  1. #1 by oknyua on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 10:29 am

    YB Lim,

    Now that is a word of wisdom from Toh Kin Woon.

    Secondly YB Lim, I read a new word from Nazri today, “Samseng.”

    May I propose that coarse and vulgar words be limited to parliament, or to the homes of the users ONLY. If such words are uttered, or proven to have been uttered and directed to an individual, group or party, such action must be viewed to act tantamount to slander or seditious.

    Thank you.

  2. #2 by malaysia_mana_boleh on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 10:32 am

    Toh Kin Woon is no different from lim kheng yek or oh kah teng.

    He is only voicing all these out because he is about to retire.

    He was also a lap dog while he was in office.

    toh kin woon is nothing but a coward like the rest.

  3. #3 by oknyua on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 10:35 am

    YB Lim,

    That is a word of wisdom from Toh Kin Woon.

  4. #4 by greenacre on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 10:37 am

    I would quote beloved Ghandi on the seven sins :-
    1. The politics without principles
    2. The wealth without work
    3. The pleasure without conscience
    4. The knowledge without character
    5. The commerce without morality
    6. The Science without humanity
    7. The worship without sacrifice

    Before calling others crooks look at your pointing finger (index) the other two are turned towards you.

  5. #5 by malaysia_mana_boleh on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 10:38 am

    word of wisdom my A – S – S

    Isn’t it 20 years too late????????

    why only say now???????

    coz he is going to retire and has nothing to lose that’s why!!!!!!

  6. #6 by oknyua on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 10:42 am


    give him grace friend. It’s never too late. It takes one to break rank from the rest to follow. Devamany broke rank too. Now we have this man, I don’t him, that for sure. Who knows we might have another from MCA an finally an open revolt from within UMNO.

    It takes one spark to ignite a fire.

  7. #7 by malaysia_mana_boleh on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 10:49 am

    oknyua, please don’t be so naive.

    Devamany “broke rank too”? You must be joking.

    that joker made a boo boo during the interview with al jazeera and to amend his mistake he is acting as if he is defending his comrades.

    in actual fact he is trying to defend and save his own political lifeline.

    see the bigger picture my fren!

  8. #8 by malaysia_mana_boleh on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 10:51 am

    had he not try to act as if he is the Hero, i would say that is the end of his political lifespan. you think any indian would vote for him after he label them as “the type of people”??????

    think about it.

  9. #9 by poisonjay on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 11:02 am

    Special Coverage on Times of India.


    post your comments there too.

  10. #10 by sj on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 11:15 am

    I agree that the BN politicians are unforgivable. They must be let off the hook. Just a simple sorry after 2 decades of destroying the nation, you think that would suffice? No way man. If the Malaysians still think “Boleh lah, Ok lah, Tidak apalah”, then Malaysia really deserves more half past six governance. These are inhumane crooks, who are corrupted to the core. You think they would have compassion for the people? You would think they have integrity? You think they would have the courage to tell the truth ? You think they actually care for the welfare of starving poor people in the country regardless of their race ? If your answer to these question is a big NO, then no they dont deserve it, they deserve to be investigated and prosecuted.

  11. #11 by sj on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 11:17 am

    Oh and the Prime Minister himself is one of the people that said that people that are involved in the rally should be arrested. So much for “telling me the truth”. Be wise and think, how many times have Malaysians been lied to. Are you people really that stupid ? Rakyat BODOH?????

  12. #12 by HJ Angus on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 11:27 am

    Now if all the BN MPs tell the PM the truth like the BN guy from Penang we could have a new PM.

    That happens in the developed nations like Australia or the UK.

  13. #13 by sani on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 11:46 am


    Sometimes senior crooks can have some influence on the junior recruits.

    Keep our fingers crossed….. but don’t how your breath

  14. #14 by sani on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 11:47 am


    Sometimes senior crooks can have some influence on the junior recruits.

    Keep our fingers crossed….. but don’t hold your breath

  15. #15 by grace on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 11:50 am

    Dr. Toh is very much liked by the people.
    He is very well-known for his sincerity and honesty. He is specklessly clean, unlike many ruling assembly men in penang.

    OKT, SAMY VELLOO OR KOH TSU KOON to have 10% of Toh’s sincerity?????? Must be asking for the moon!!!

  16. #16 by k1980 on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 12:12 pm

    Will malaysia end up like uncle mugabe’s wonderland?
    “Professional people are being made to lie by the Government because the data is so scary. We have a Government that would prefer to change the data than change the reality.”

  17. #17 by madmix on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 12:29 pm

    Nazri talks to Tamil Nadu CM in the same manner he talks to Malaysian Indians: shut up, mind your own business, get out if you do not like it here.

    Dewan Rakyat in brief: Nazri chides Tamil Nadu’s CM

    Email to friend Email to Friend Print article Print Article

    TAMIL NADU Chief Minister M. Karunanidhi has been told to worry about problems in his own state and not on what is happening in Malaysia.
    Minister in the Prime Minister’s Department Datuk Seri Nazri Aziz warned Karuna- nidhi to keep out of Malaysian politics.

    “His place is in Tamil Nadu, not Malaysia. He should worry about his own state. His own state has got problems.

    “This has got nothing to do with him … lay off,” said Nazri in the lobby yesterday when asked about reports in the Indian media on Karunanidhi’s outburst against Malaysian authorities on their handling of the illegal rally organised by the Hindu Rights Action Force (Hindraf).

    According to The Hindu newspaper, the Tamil Nadu chief minister had written to Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh over the rally.
    He reportedly urged Manmohan to employ the necessary measures regarding the “suffering and bad treatment” of Tamils in Malaysia.

    The subject was also raised in the house, with Foreign Ministry parliamentary secretary Datuk Ahmad Shabery Cheek having to handle queries from the opposition.

    He told opposition leader Lim Kit Siang that Wisma Putra did not receive any formal complaints from the Indian diaspora outside Malaysia on the rally.

    Lim raised Karunanidhi’s unhappiness over the way the rally was handled when Shabery was replying to Datuk Nur Jazlan Mohamed (BN-Pulai) on the millennium development goals (MDG).

    Shabery told the house that Indians in the country were better off than those in India based on the eight millennium development goals set by the United Nations.

    He said all races in the country benefited from the country’s development which had attracted an influx of foreign workers.

    “We have many workers from India here and their presence is a testimony that the situation in Malaysia is far better than in India,” he said to jeers from opposition MPs.

    On the MDG, Shabery said Malaysia had successfully met seven of the goals.

    Later in the lobby, Lim said newspapers in India reported that Indian leaders were unhappy over the Malaysian government’s handling of the Hindraf demonstration.

  18. #18 by grace on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 12:43 pm

    OKT, Ling Lion Sik, Samy elloo, Koh Tsu Khoon belonged to a special breed of “invertebrates”

  19. #19 by oknyua on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 12:44 pm

    At my age, I can’t be considered naive. I have been involved in elections a number of times and event a worker for the BN – an election agent and the money-bag carrier. I could say I know many ins and outs of BN people.

    From there, I know there are many sincere and honest BN men. And Grace’s comment seemed to confirm this. We just hope Dr. Toh perservere.

    If we look back at history, it is the bravery of a single man that started revolution. Martin Luther started the reformation. Deng Sio Peng started the modernisation of China, despite being threatened twice. It was one man Gandhi that broke the British stronghold in India. Nelson Mendela is still alive in South Africa.

    Let not sentiments sway us to be judgemental before we hear the whole story. Dr Toh is a BN man. He may be set to retire. But just because of his affiliation he is considered a corrupted man; that is not right. The fact YB Lim gave his name as an example speaks volume to the intergrity of the man. If you don’t trust Dr Toh, at least respect YB Lim.

  20. #20 by chloo on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 12:57 pm

    I will hear the truth
    Tell it to me now

  21. #21 by budak on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 1:04 pm

    indeed there are good and sincere leader among Barisan Penyangak (BN), usually there are left behind as they have difference with the greeds…

    why must they hide behind the PENYANGAK(s)..?
    come out and tell us the whole truth…! :-)
    as a Citizen & Taxpayer to the PENYANGAK GOV, I have a rights to know…!

  22. #22 by Jeffrey on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 1:15 pm

    “…//….To me, it is this discontent and unhappiness that will be a greater threat to our country’s peace and stability, rather than the marches, pickets and demonstrations…//…” – Dr. Toh Kin Woon.

    One must go behind the root cause of such discontent and unhappiness. The government says street demonstrations is not Malaysian Culture and exhorts all to play by the law and the rules. But for people to do that – play by law and the rules – the government has to do first by example and play fair by these rules and law and hold them sacrosanct instead of selectively enforcing them in the interest of power and self preservation instead of the common wealth and interest of the larger society?

    You don’t withhold permit and send the FRU in some cases whilst in others you ‘tutup’ the eye when the assembly was against Condeeleeza Rice in which some political bigwig could show he was champion!

    How to take grievance peaceably to the court to seek redress if judges are implicated in Lingam video clip for which the first instinct was to whitewash with a lame duck panel with no powers to call witnesses and provide protection for testimonies? When every call for attention to one’s grievance is threatened by the Sedition Act for breach of the so-called “Social Contract” – and Ministers admitting not knowing the limits of their ministerial authority could issue letters of support committing public funds to over RM4 billion for which the government far from holding them accountable ratify their ultra vires acts?

    Basically one can’t reasonably expect the disgruntled and marginalized to play by the rules and abide by law – and take to the streets – if the other side shows little respect for the rules and the law save and except when they may be cited for their partisan interest and there is no other avenue for seeking redress!

    And when they do take to the streets instead of addressing their legitimate concerns the law of sedition and Police Act is thrown at them and their leaders.

    This is a dangerous situation : because bottled up discontent and unhappiness that finds no vent for expression and release will by the physics of pressure build up to the point of explosion. There will no winners here.

    Government leaders are also Malaysians who happen to do well and rise to position of power and eminence in their chosen career in politics : there is no reason, when up there, you turn around at your other less fortunate countrymen and women and instead of listening, negotiate and bargain, threaten to make their lives unbearable and miserable by arrests and punishment for the preservation of vested interests over the truth, common decency and fair play.

  23. #23 by k1980 on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 1:18 pm

    So who are the real racists?
    Malaysia is second only to the US as a home for overseas Indians. So it does not take long for Indians to wonder why their immigrants to the US have been so successful – top of the migrant league in terms of income – while their fellows in Malaysia languish at the bottom of the pile despite having been there for a century.

  24. #24 by izrafeil on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 1:28 pm


    from AWSJ today….. Tokyo – Vice Def Minister T.Moriya was arrested on suspicion he accepted a dozen free golf trips valued at USD35,000/-

    Wish our ACA is as tough as the Japanese anti corruption agency!

  25. #25 by k1980 on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 1:30 pm

    Shabery told the house that Indians in the country were better off than those in India based on the eight millennium development goals set by the United Nations.

    Why not compare the Malaysian Indians with the Indians in the US or the UK?

  26. #26 by cheng on soo on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 1:46 pm

    k1980, i think compare with indian in spore most appropriate, in both countries, they are a less than 9% minority, both countries were ruled by Brit. been independent for 40+ years (Msia is still below 50 yr) etc.
    Indian friends pls say been Indian Msian is better or Indian Sporean is better

  27. #27 by lucia on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 1:50 pm


    you are wrong about toh kin woon. this was not the first time he spoke up (like you said only when he wants to retire). he had spoken up a few times before.

    like grace said, he is a very nice friendly humble man, very well like by penangites. and like LKS said here, he IS the only BN leader who is prepared to call a spade a spade.

  28. #28 by Anti_NEP on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 2:05 pm

    YB Lim, you are asking the O K Nothing and semi value to go against their Umno master? You must be kidding. Who’s going to look after their welfare like the former lord president once said if they go against the master that feed them.

  29. #29 by ENDANGERED HORNBILL on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 2:09 pm



    “US defends peaceful protests in Malaysia
    WASHINGTON – THE United States underscored on Wednesday the rights of Malaysians to hold peaceful protests, after Prime Minister Abdullah Badawi’s government swiftly suppressed mass rallies and threatened to use a law to detain protesters indefinitely without trial.
    ‘We believe citizens of any country should be allowed to peacefully assemble and express their views,’ a US State Department official said when commenting on the crackdown of unprecedented street protests in the Malaysian capital Kuala Lumpur this month.

  30. #30 by ENDANGERED HORNBILL on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 2:22 pm

    “Hindraf demo – BN Ministers and leaders should have at least 30% of Toh Kin Woon’s sincerity and honesty”.

    Whilst I get the drift of this, I do not think BN Minisiters can ever match up either by telling the truth, being honest & sincere 30% of the time (i.e. frequency) OR share even a lowly 30% of the truth, honesty, sincerity (i.e. quality).

    The fact is leopards don’t change spots & tigers don’t shed their stripes. Mostly, BN leaders sweet-talk, con, deceive etc.etc. etc. I mean just look at PM’s empty promises! Do you believe Nazri, Zakaria, Zam Bung Kinabatangan etc can either tell the honest & sincere truth 30% of the time or tell 30% of that truth? Might as well ask for the moon & moo for the cows to come home!

    There is only 1 way to deal with such rot – kick them out at the next GE! How can Malaysians tolerate such ‘garbage’ in Parliament?

  31. #31 by Bigjoe on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 2:22 pm

    The truth is Hindraf is a test of the ultimate promise of BN – the removal of NEP supposedly by 2020 and creation of Bangsa Malaysia. Many ask why Hindraf now although it has been decades things have been this way? Well because there is a danger that the NEP will extend beyond 2020 which the Indian finds intolerable.

    Abdullah came into office with promise of greater equity but the right-winger of UMNO, led by his SIL, became even more vocal and talk fo 2057 instead of 2020 and such as well as the not wanting the Bangsa Malaysia concept. The demolition of temples was just a trigger of this right-wing voice in the administration.

    There is a simple solution for Badawi – just keep the promise by starting now to have something in place that ensured that NEP will be replaced by a race-blind anti-poverty program by 2020. he can do this by 1) Have 10% of the development budget being totally race blind purely on meritocracy. 2) 10% of university places based on 1 exam and based on poverty level. 3) 10% of scholarships based on poverty level and pure meritocracy. 3) Complete meritocracy of portfolio for anti-poverty from minister to funding. In fact have an anti-poverty minister that is to be contested as publicly as possible.

    The solution is not difficult, keeping the promise is.

  32. #32 by oknyua on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 2:25 pm

    Hornbill, that will not prevent our PM from flying to the US at the end of the year and once again gloat in front of the US congress that democracy and freedom of political expression is well and alive in Malaysia.

  33. #33 by SivajiTheBoss on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 2:49 pm


    I am a Malaysian citizen, and I am a subscriber of ASTRO Satellite TV Broadcast here in Malaysia. Recently I have subscribed to the ASTRO News Package which contains Al Jazeera and other foreign news media.

    I was highly looking forward for the international news broadcast on all of the stations provided by the package when I had shocking news from our local news station claiming that the foreign news broadcasters are lying and making stories without properly acquiring the real facts and they are very good actors !!! Furthermore these claims were also made by our government’s politicians.

    Now, this is rather disturbing and disappointing for me as I have only subscribed for the service for just a few days and I’m being bombarded with such claims. This eventually made me to think:

    Am I an IDIOT to subscribe, pay and end up watching acts and lies
    Is there is any conspiracy going on here????

    I clearly understand the fact that Al Jazeera has a strong principal called the Code of Ethics and you strictly follow it. But the claims by the politicians and local media here make me to think otherwise.

    The claims below were broadcasted on 27-November-2007 in TV3 news station. Similar claims were also made in other local newscasters. This is just a few of the claims.

    1. TV3 news station claimed that the foreign media cannot be trusted as they do not report the actual news.

    2. YAB Datuk Sri Samy Velu claims that there were only 4,600 demonstrators on 25-November-2007 and NOT 50,000 or any other number as claimed by the foreign media.

    3. TV3 news station said that the questions thrown at the Information Minister of Malaysia by Al Jazeera (Al Jazeera’s name was mentioned) was to purposely create a scene to show that Malaysia is in kiosk situation and Al Jazeera purposely built up the story from the real one. They also mentioned the criticism made by the Information Minister to Al Jazeera.

    (Prior to sending the mail, I did some research on the net and actually found the video clip of the above Interview in Youtube. And I actually laughed myself out listening to the reply given by our Minister. Pity him for his language. But in the Malaysian news channel TV3, they only provided the “CLEAN” version of the transcript and the actual call was not aired. This makes me even more confused!!! Who is telling the truth here???)

    Now, if Al Jazeera is telling lies,

    It is high time for Al Jazeera to review back their Code of Ethics and provide the truth for the people. If you can’t do it then don’t cheat the entire world. And don’t broadcast your news at all. I am not a fool to keep paying for acts and lies.

    And if Al Jazeera is NOT lying,

    Well, what the heck. The damage has already been done. No one in Malaysia is going to listen to your news anyway due to the “VERY GOOD” publicity done by the Malaysian politicians and the local media. By the way, did I mention that our local media could also be received by our neighboring countries like Singapore and Thailand?


    It is not my intension to insult Al Jazeera, other foreign media, our local media or the politicians. If you feel offended by this email, I sincerely apologize to you. Whatever the scenario is, all that I want (and the rest of Malaysian citizens who are in my situation want) is the truth. Since Al Jazeera’s and other foreign media’s names have been badly damaged here in Malaysia, Al Jazeera and the other foreign media’s SHOULD do something to fix it back or you may start loosing your viewer in Malaysia.(and its surrounding countries too)

    I hope you could keep my details confidential and properly investigate on this issue (just incase if you don’t trust me) and find out the real truth behind such a drastic claims by our local media. That is if you still follow your Code of Ethics.

    Yours truly,
    A concerned viewer.

    1. i am also forwarding this mail to other foreign media for their response.
    2. i will be posting this transcript in the internet via blogs so that the viewers around the world will be aware that this matter has been brought to your attention and for them to express their views.

  34. #34 by wantonhead on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 3:05 pm

    In the Star today; Nazri says “Don’t challenge the Government. They can try and hold rally again and see what will happen”

  35. #35 by Cinnamon on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 3:35 pm

    I have never seen a stupid and arrogant bastard like Nazri.

    When the Bar Council staged a walk, Nazri said only 1000 lawyers participated. Therefore the walk is not reflection of the ~ 10,000 lawyers in the country.

    On Nov 25th, there were at least 30,000 at KLCC, and this stupid minister is saying, that doesn’t reflect the sentiments of majority of Indians. If that is the case, why did you locked the front gates of Batu Caves Temple, thus preventing another ~5000 joining the crowd. Why the LRT, monorails, taxis, buses were prevented to ply towards KLCC. It is a historical event on Nov 25, 2007. It will go down in the history. Indians are usually tolerant people. For decades this race has been suffering.

    You called these people as ‘penyagak’.
    The people attended the gathering is only the tip of iceberg. These people will show their power in the coming general election.

    Nazri, you stupid bastard, enough is enough, you already known as the law minister who don’t care about law, don’t make it worse.

    To all the non-Malay MPs of BN, please stand up and say sincerely what is in your mind. Otherwise you will go down in the history as the people who sell the race for pseudo glory. STAND UP, HAVE SOME BACKBONE!!!!!!!

    God bless this country.

  36. #36 by sani on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 3:39 pm


    After much thoughts about DR TOH, i’ll like to retract + restate my position, that i took this morning.

    After much thinking over, I must give credit to him for his effort in community issues, education + role in making Penang, once the Silicon Valley of the East.

    After much debate with myself, whether people of his capability should work within an unfortunate system or to continue contributing to the people from the outside? Whether putting himself on the payrole of these distasted goverments, federally or other wise, would not only lend legitmacy to them or not?

    After many strong stands that he took over the years, yet the space he envisioned for us, “was not fully utilized”, to quote himself. Does this breaking of ranks, at the end of his career, make a different? Yes it does. After all he could just shut up + be a retired pondan, couldn’t he? Yet he took a stand + this might just inspire more to speak the truth.

    Ater all i had said, i still thought he would had done much more, would he had not taken political shelter within the BN. So to him + his fans, i appolgize for calling him a crook, when he is only half a crook. My appologies..

  37. #37 by justiciary on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 3:57 pm

    We should give due respect to Dr.Toh for upholding his conscience as a politician.Unlike his counterparts in BN,he has on many occasions spoken against some unfair practices of the government.His action has shamed many of the invertebrates found in MCA,GERAKAN,MIC and also those in East Malaysia who are still hiding and licking under the gigantic sarong of Umo.

  38. #38 by messy on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 3:59 pm

    aiyo zam just got to say something doesn’t he?
    when PM says he wants to hear the truth means he wants to ear TRUTHS from all parties…let it be BN or BA or even the public…
    as long as it is the truth PM would want to hear it

    but anyway BN never tell the truth…to ZAM,
    you have already brought shame to yourself in aljazeera with your KAMPUNG-ENGLISH…so lease i reckon you to go home and brush up your english…your english just makes me roar in laughter and at times i’ll have tears flowing…

    your rap in aljazeera will always be remmebered by everyone!

  39. #39 by mwt on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 4:12 pm

    It looks like the defacto Law Minister is waging an all out war on all the Hindraf leaders. One of them Ganabatirau was arrested in th morning and now Uthayakumar is next on line with his seditious memo to the Queen via the PM Brown. And Nazri has vowed to see them pay the price of “challenging the Government”.
    A chorus of supporters from UMNO are calling for the immediate use of ISA to curb further street demos. More details from

  40. #40 by Libra2 on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 5:12 pm

    Nazri talks and acts like the PM. He makes all the decisions. He is also a discipline Master to see that MIC MPs don’t sides with the Indians.
    He can even scold India.
    He is the only one in the country who thinks and acts differently. probably he came from Mars.

  41. #41 by gsuku on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 5:28 pm

    why no action was taken in 2006.During Umno AGM,Hishamudin wow to bath his keris with blood..why never chrge him under Seditious Act…just becoz same party…they can do anything…khairy N gang jammed up nKLCC during condoleeza visit 2 submit memo,no permit needed,no tear gas,no water canon,no force,no was beatenup /arrestedno reports on traders lost business,no report on traffic problem….SUCH HYPOCRISY

  42. #42 by fish_talk on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 5:35 pm

    Syabas to “Bersih” and “Hindraf”.

    Despite all Threats and Obstacle. You dare to “SPEAK UP”.
    Speaking up needs courage, and comittment to your cause.

    Those lap dogs ln MIC’s Samy & Deva, in MCA’s OKT and the likes, by nature are expected to fence for their Master even B4 the Master ask them to do so. That is the way to guard after their positions and interest. And for those comming to the end of the road, and realising no more benefit available for tapping, may at time either due to conscience or frustration, begin to “Spek Up” too.
    Dr. Toh Kin Woon, thanks for voicing out now, although it is about 20 years late. Sorry for the wrong timing, some may call you a Hero nw, but others may call you a Hero in Suspicon.

  43. #43 by ENDANGERED HORNBILL on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 5:38 pm

    Nazri says there were 20,000 “Penyangak” (Crooks) marching.
    Devamany says there were 50,000.
    Semi-Value says there were 4,600, according to the Police.

    Proved: More than one liar in BN!

    What did the Police say the number was?
    IGP says “there was no body contact”. What a stupid liar that makes of him. That was why I said in another thread he sounded like a PMR dropout!

    And, Nazri – has he reduced his syllables? He is the guy with the trisyllabic fame: “Racist! Racist! Racist!” “Stupid! STupid! Stupid!” Now, just “Penyangak” once. Seems like he has lost his voice with all those raucous, irrational shouting. Did he lose his brains too? I don’t kNow. Never knew he had any!

  44. #44 by ENDANGERED HORNBILL on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 5:52 pm

    I’ve heard Dr. Toh KIn Woon only once in all his career in politics. But I was deepy impressed by his humility, sincerity and honesty. He came across as one who is deeply concerned about social justice and egalitarianism. It is certain that he is hamstrung by the severely lopsided BN system. Yet, Dr Toh had sought to push back the obstacles against those hopeless odds.

    It is noteworthy that Dr Toh’s contrarian views with his BN counterparts are well known. Yet we also know that they hold him in high respects. Further, he enjoys the respects and confidence of a large part of the Penang population. Any attempt to rope him in to be ‘hanged’ by those less-than-sensible BN party cadres would not go down well with the population and would risk further loss of votes. That, I believe, is why BN daren’t touch Dr Toh.

    But, my question to Dr Toh is: why stay & be labelled as part of a corrupt & immoral grouping like BN. Since it is obvious that it has been impossible to change BN from the inside after all those precious years, it’s time to bid farewell to an equally hamstrung DR Koh Tsu Koon & Gerakan & move over to DAP or PKR at a time when the country needs Dr Toh to do this more than anything else.

    At a time when there is a significant groundswell for justice, democracy and egalitarianism, Dr Toh, the nation needs you at this critical hour to join the fight on this side of TRUTH, HONOUR AND INTEGRITY.


  45. #45 by AnakTiriMalaysia on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 5:56 pm

    Come this General election,

    the RAKYAt must send a LOUD & CLEAR signal to BARISAN NASIONAL…..[ you are not indispensable…… YOU ARE FIRED!!!!!]

  46. #46 by madmix on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 6:00 pm

    New immigrants are not considered new-comers, are not asked to go home, but counted as the same class citizen with equal rights regardless of race or religion:

    A former rock star and an Asian-born woman were named to spearhead the new Australian government’s environmental policies, which include ratifying the Kyoto Protocol on climate change.
    Former Midnight Oil frontman Peter Garrett was appointed Minister for the Environment by prime minister-elect Kevin Rudd, whose centre-left Labor Party ousted John Howard’s conservative government in elections last weekend.

    Malaysian-born Penny Wong will be Minister for Climate Change and Water, with responsibility for international negotiations on the Kyoto treaty, which aims to curb the emission of greenhouse gases blamed for global warming.

    Rudd has pledged to reverse Howard’s policy and ratify the UN treaty, leaving US President George W. Bush isolated as the only major world leader to refuse to do so.

    Rudd told a news conference that both new ministers would accompany him to a key UN conference in Bali next month which aims to produce plans for action on climate change beyond 2012, when current Kyoto commitments expire.
    “Penny will have responsibility for our international negotiations on Kyoto and Kyoto plus, she will have responsibility for the negotiations of our domestic emissions trading regime,” he said.

    Rudd said Garrett would be responsible for delivering key climate-change programmes within Australia, including “solar programmes, water-efficiency programmes and general energy efficiency programmes”. Climate change became a major issue in the Australian election campaign against the backdrop of the worst drought in living memory and Rudd pledged to make the environment one of his government’s top priorities.

    “A core part of Labor’s agenda for the future is climate change, water and the environment,” he told the news conference.

    “When I attend Bali in just a couple of weeks time, I will be attending that conference with Peter and Penny.”

    Garrett, 54, was for 26 years the vocalist for Midnight Oil, named by Rolling Stone magazine as “one of the most significant bands ever to emerge from Australia”.

    The band was known for its active support of a range of contemporary concerns including the plight of homeless youth, indigenous people’s rights and protection of the environment.

    He was elected to parliament in 2004 and became shadow minister for climate change, environment, heritage and the arts, but lost climate change to Wong after making a few gaffes during the election campaign.

    Wong, who moved from Malaysia to Australia as an eight-year-old in 1977, was elected as a Labor Senator in 2001.

    She was the first Asian-born woman to enter federal parliament, and says she believes that “the fundamental national political challenge of our day is to renew Australia’s underlying value of a fair go for everybody”.

    In the outgoing parliament, she had held the posts of shadow minister for Employment and Workforce Participation and for Corporate Governance and Responsibility. – AFP

  47. #47 by ENDANGERED HORNBILL on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 6:08 pm

    This is yet another reason why I often think Nazri is so irredeemably stupid!

    Nazri: I stand by the other 2 mil Indians
    Nov 29, 07 5:14pm

    Minister in the Prime Minister’s Department Nazri Abdul Aziz today said he stands by the two million Indian Malaysians who did not participate in the Nov 25 rally organised by the Hindu Rights Action Force (Hindraf).

    Firstly, the 50,000 who took part in the Rally is part & parcel of the 2 million of protestors. AFter all, the 50,000 is representing the 2 million others who are groaning!

    Secondly, the Police roadblocks & harassment is the reason why the 2 million others did not come out to demonstrate!

    Thirdly, the 2 million others are the reinforcements if BN or the Police wants a further demonstration of strength and a show of their cohesiveness.

    Fourthly, come the GE, the 2 million will show BN the exit door and place their votes for the Opposition. Samy Vellu will slink away sheepishly like John Howard when he loses his seat in Sg Siput.

  48. #48 by ENDANGERED HORNBILL on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 6:20 pm

    madmix Says:

    November 29th, 2007 at 18: 00.54
    New immigrants are not considered new-comers, are not asked to go home, but counted as the same class citizen with equal rights regardless of race or religion:

    MAdeleine Albright was an immigrant from then Czechoslovakia, was granted US citizenship in the 1950s and rose to be the No.3 in the US Administration under President Bill Clinton.

    Malaysian Indians and Chinese, millions of whom are 3rd, 4th, 5th generations Malaysians. They are all “Pendatangs” still.

    Vote for DAP & PKR to get full citizenship rights and to erase all forms of racial labellings!

  49. #49 by Godfather on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 6:42 pm

    This corrupt government will continue to harrass us. They will continue to bring people in for “questioning”, without legal representation. They will keep you for hours without food or water. Then they will let you go, particularly if your relatives or friends start making noise through whatever media that is willing to lend you a voice.

    This is modern-day Gestapo tactics and we have to document them one by one, and present a dossier to foreign news channels.

    We must continue to rally in support of any just cause.

  50. #50 by mata_kucing on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 7:13 pm

    Much that I agree with what Toh Kin Woon says, I want to ask him, where were you when the rakyat needed you? Like the rest of the eunuchs from MCA, MIC and Gerakan, he has been keeping quiet when UMNO went on rampage. He now only speaks up because he is retiring and presumely nothing to loose. The unfortunate part is that he seems very articulate and intellegent but chose to keep quiet like a mouse like his colleages from the minor parties. I like to tell him, “Too late, my friend”. Too much damage has been done and present and future generations will not forgive you. History will remember people like you as UMNO slaves. My only hope is that your statement will rub on some of your fellow politicians and give them courage to speak their mind. I don’t have much faith they would but will be quite happy to be proven wrong.

  51. #51 by Godfather on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 7:25 pm

    It’s like Mahathir on his deathbed saying that he regretted tampering with the judiciary and with making the enforcement agencies into UMNO’s puppets.

    It is simply too little, too late. We are on the slippery slope to ruin.

  52. #52 by Count Dracula on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 7:36 pm

    “This has resulted in the least hands-on Prime Minister in the nation’s history …” Kit

    I have had enough with this spineless Prime Minister. How could he be hands on when he has both his hands on Jeanne??

  53. #53 by Godfather on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 8:29 pm

    You mean he is spending all his time driving his new Geanne2 ?

  54. #54 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 8:31 pm

    This, I believe, sums up the feeling of many Malaysians including many Indians in Malaysia who are not Tamils or Hindu fundamentalists.

    “The appeals by the Hindu rights movement to both the UK and the International Court of Justice have probably been too extreme to be taken very seriously in themselves even by activists in India. They are also specifically Hindu and Tamil rather than encompassing all Malaysian Indian groups. (see letter below addressed to UK Prime Minister Gordon Brown) They appear to have alienated many of the middle class Malaysian Indians who are best equipped to take the case forward. Likewise the legal case brought in London against the British government for being responsible for bringing Indians to Malaysia in the first place looks more like a publicity stunt than a winnable case. “

  55. #55 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 8:34 pm


    It is obvious that the PM needs your help and the benefit of your skills – in driving. Something tells me he is willing to play ball with you.

  56. #56 by dawsheng on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 9:04 pm

    Later, it was finally exposed that Adnan himself had placed a bid for CCC 9 for RM48,000.

    Lagi-lagi, taxpayers’ money.

    Pecah temberang? Not until you hear how he justified it in Umno mouthpiece, Utusan Malaysia:

    “Soal membazir tidak timbul, pasal duit itu kerajaan bayar kepada Jabatan Pengangkutan Jalan (JPJ). JPJ pula akan gunakan duit itu untuk membayar gaji.

    “Apa membazir pula? Duit itu pusing daripada kerajaan ke kerajaan. Bukan untuk Adnan Yaakob (tetapi) untuk kerajaan,” jelasnya.


    “The question of wasting money does not arise as the money is paid by the (state) government to the JPJ. In turn, the JPJ will use the money to pay salaries.

    “Where got waste? The money goes from government to government. It’s not for Adnan Yaakob (but) for the government.”

    more at…


  57. #57 by Godfather on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 9:20 pm

    Yup, he has sent emissaries to say that he wants to play ball with me, but I am skeptical that he knows how to play ball at all. I think he’s trying to use KJ to play ball with some of us. Sort of immediate substitution.

  58. #58 by Loyal Malaysian on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 9:20 pm

    Yes, it is pub;ic knowledge that dr Toh will be retired. But I feel credit must still be accorded to him for speaking what is honest and fair. But are the powers that be listening? No they hear not.!!

  59. #59 by mendela on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 9:38 pm

    Why MCA is so quiet?
    Where are your balls?

    Where is OTK, the hero of Team B?

  60. #60 by AhPek on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 9:43 pm

    Why do you think that Ulyathakumar’s only objective is to win the lawsuit and does he honestly not know himself his chance of enabling every Indian to take home 2 million USD is extremely slim?I believe it’s the publicity stunt that you mentioned is his primary motive and if he pulls it off, this stunt will turn into the biggest galvaning force uniting all the Tamils in the Indian community, never mind the middle class Indian who are the Malayalees, Gujeratis,Punjabis who are in fact insignificant group in terms of their percentage make-up of the community.
    If it happens and I think it has a high chance, then all I can say is the opposition group is going to benefit tremendously because of the power of swing votes in many mixed constituencies.Semi Velu now I believe has started pissing under his pants!

  61. #61 by mendela on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 9:43 pm

    Where is Bohowi?
    Did he ever attend Parliament sessions at all?

    May be only in Bodohland that the PM can avoid most of the parliament debate session!

  62. #62 by motai on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 10:15 pm

    Why double standards?
    Written by Gerard Lourdesamy on 29 November, 2007 at 13:38 PM

    Nazri should be rudely reminded that the Malaysian Government should also mind its own business and not interfere in the internal affairs of Israel (the de facto authority in Palestine), Iraq, Bosnia, Southern Thailand and Mindanao in the Philippines. If it is a Muslim cause, then our government has the right to interfere otherwise as in Burma, Darfur and Aceh, it is non-interference and the usual ineffective noises. Is this not double standards?

    Let me also remind Nazri that in the last 2 years the union and state governments in India have awarded US$8 billion in contracts to Malaysian companies, which companies are either government linked companies or companies related to the ruling party. Most of these contracts came from Tamil Nadu. The Malaysian companies involved are not controlled by Malaysian Indians either and their equity in these companies is non-existent. Perhaps the Indian government should cancel or suspend all these contracts. The MIC is only useful to our government when it needs to negotiate contracts in India, which it often does, at the end only individuals in the MIC get the benefits while the poor and marginalised Indians living in this country (as a privilege) only get hit by tear gas and water canons.

    Why is Rafidah Aziz in India right now begging for projects? I believe she is going to get a hostile reception after the fall-out from the Hindraf rally. The Indian media gave wide coverage to the rally and demonstrations also took place in parts of India in support of Malaysian Indians.

    If our government, UMNO and the BN wants to protest in front of the Indian High Commission tomorrow, it is welcome to do so. Why not go further and expel the Indian expatriates and workers from Malaysia? Two things will happen, the MSC can close shop and the multi-nationals will leave this country in droves.

    Nazri should be reminded that he is talking about the world’s largest liberal democracy, the 10th largest economy (soon to be third largest), second highest growth rates, the third largest army in the world with a nuclear arsenal, etc. etc. (including some of the best scientific, technical and medical minds in the world).

    As far as New Delhi is concerned Malaysia can become the mouse that roars but that is not going to change the Indian perception of this country as one that systemically discriminates its minorities despite calling them citizens.

    Gerard Lourdesamy

    Good Job
    Written by David Soong Tshon Li on 29 November, 2007 at 14:47 PM

    Thanks for posting the letter here, Shan. I wonder if it was published by any of our “free and independent” local press. From press articles published on this website, it isn’t even clear what Nazri was complaining about.

    David Soong Tshon Li

  63. #63 by ENDANGERED HORNBILL on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 10:32 pm

    There are 3 types of BN Ministers and Leaders:

    1) STUPID – this category is distinguished by their decibels rather than their degrees. Some notable examples: Nazri, Jasin MP (Said), Kinabatangan MP (Bung)

    2) SILENT – this category are mostly deaf and dumb when it comes to issues of importance, be they cross-cultural or inter-racial and otherwise. Key examples – Ong Ka Ting (MCA), Lim Keng Yaik/Koh Tsu Koon (GERAKAN), Samy Vellu (MIC).

    3) SENSELESS – this category is noted for their inane & senseless responses inside & outside Parliament or State Assemblies. Infamous names include Nazri (again), Jerai MP, Zakaria Deros…there are just too many personalities than I care to remember.

    With such bad breeding and inbreeding which keeps the gene pool so inferior among BN, it is time to drop for voters to drop them & vote for fresh faces among DAP / PKR members so as to produce hybrid vigour and energise a lifeless, inane force in Parliament for 2008.

  64. #64 by 4DE PEOPLE on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 10:50 pm

    Well, well. I truly salute the leaders of HINDRAF for their courage and bravery on holding the rally. Kudos!! I mean, think about it. Who dares to challenge the government? I believe the three leaders know very well of the consequences of holding such a rally despite the fact of the warning by the authorities and the stupid roadblocks causing the stupid jam.

    To me, they are willing to risk their comfortable lives to fight for the people and fight for justice. At least these “Penyagak” are doing something rather than choose not to hear the grouses of the people. Ask the BN leaders if they are willing to take the risk of going to jail for the people. I guess many not. We can see all these son-in law, sons of the BN leaders joining politics trying to get a post or a seat in the party. WHY? Because of the status and the perks that comes with it. We can see it in all the three main BN party. To me, these people are not the true leaders. We need leaders who are able to stand for us when we need them.

  65. #65 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 10:53 pm

    “If it happens and I think it has a high chance, then all I can say is the opposition group is going to benefit tremendously because of the power of swing votes in many mixed constituencies.Semi Velu now I believe has started pissing under his pants!” AhPek

    Politics is about perception.

    How do you think Malays view the HINDRAF demonstrations?

    We often refer to racial polarization as a result of ill-conceived and flawed implement of government policies as being a process that took years to make its full impact felt but the HINDRAF demonstrators took only one day to bring the process of racial polarization to new heights. The demonstration if anything is a deafening indictment of the MIC and their leaders who claim to represent the Tamils. It is after all a Tamil party – rather than an Indian.

    But it is likely to have alienated the moderates among the liberal minded and social progressives among the Malays who before these noisy demonstrations were prepared to put their weight behind PKR and vote for the Opposition to reduce the margin of control BN has.

    It is a flawed strategy if ever there was one.

    As for winning international support, racial discrimination is not a human rights issue. Arbitrary detention is. It is not enough to have poor marginalized Indians suffering racial discrimination in Malaysia classified as “refugees” under the 1951 U.N. Convention regarding the Status of Refugees, later expanded by the U.N. Protocol of 1967.

  66. #66 by Godamn Singh on Friday, 30 November 2007 - 12:18 am

    According to one Mohandass Karamchand

    “This appeal to Queen Elizabeth and Mahatma Ghandi is a mistake. The banners scream ‘We are Malaysians’. To the other Malaysians, it seems to be that the protesters are Indian Hindus first and Malaysians second. The ethnic, religious identity is pushed forward. The name ‘Hindraf’ is also exclusive. It excludes Indians who are Christians, Sikhs and Muslims.”

  67. #67 by ihavesomethingtosay on Friday, 30 November 2007 - 12:49 am

    Toh Kin Woon’s conscience is only awake when he’s about to retire, well, some religion says it’s ok as long as you repent before you die.

    meanwhile I am still hoping for the rest of the polititian from the ruling coalition to make similar amendments to Malaysia and their God/s (oh, I pray hard everyday for their sudden demise), perharps goodies in buy election will benefit Malaysians.

    Gomen controlled media can say what they like, but India times is really not amused at all, read their headlines.:

    – Jaya demands release of Tamils in Malaysian jails

    – Malaysian lawyers slam security law threat

    – Protests expose racism in Malaysia

    – Tough law to deter ethnic Indians

    – Karuna to PM: Help Tamils in Malaysia

    – Malaysian PM warns ethnic Indians

    – Help ethnic Indians in Malaysia: Vaiko

    – Racism against Indians worries BJP

    – Ethnic Indians not to be charged

    – Tear gas fired at ethnic Indians

    – Ethnic Indians detained in Malaysia

    – Ethnic Indians protest in Malaysia


    what you to say? taxied-ministered?

    will our kampong idiots Bung-Said comment please?

  68. #68 by eckwtg on Friday, 30 November 2007 - 1:16 am

    YB Lim,

    I was watching the republicans and democrats debate on youtube with much interest. And I would like to know your views on how to spur up our economy, your ways to tackle corruption and crime, improving our education system and most importantly, an economic policy that will benefit all races. A policy that will not leave any race behind.

    Enough have been said about the issues that have been highlighted in practically every blog that has a political view. Election is but a few months ahead, wouldn’t now be the time to enlighten us all who may or may not cast a vote towards your party. Your views will come with many comments that may or may not help you to improve on your policies.

    And if the day comes and whoever should succeed, I sincerely hope that power and greed will not blind them as it did to their predecessor.

    To a better future, YB.

  69. #69 by undergrad2 on Friday, 30 November 2007 - 1:26 am

    “Moorthy wants Britain to pay damages of £1 million to each of Malaysia’s 2 million ethnic Indians for rights abuses he traces to colonial-era labour schemes that brought their ancestors to Malaysia as indentured workers. “We are seeking compensation because we were permanently colonised during British rule, and now, under the government of the ethnic Malays,” Moorthy said. “We have lost touch with our roots and have been suppressed so far,” said Moorthy, who accuses British officials of failing to honour their responsibility to protect ethnic Indians when they granted independence to Malaysia in 1957. ”

    “Lost touch with our roots”?? What do you mean?

    “Failing to honour their (British) responsibility to protect Indians…” But with the granting of independence on August 31st 1957, responsibility was transferred to the freely elected government – run by the Alliance if we’re not mistaken? So you’re barking up the wrong tree here!

  70. #70 by burn on Friday, 30 November 2007 - 1:42 am

    i have read the memorandum, not to sure whether it’s the real one that was supposed to be given to BE. what caught my attention was… the word TERRORISM!

    part of the memo contents…
    “CONCLUSION We fear that this peace loving Indian community of Tamil origin having been pushed to the corner and the persecution getting worse by the day may be forced to into terrorism in a matter of time as what has happened to the Sri Lankan Tamils.”

    there are good and bad about HINDRAF demo.

    the good thing, international recognition. and a wake call for all indians in malaysia.

    the bad thing, did HINDRAF inform the supporters fully about what they’re demonstrating for.

    yesterday, after spoken to few indian friends, found out that none of them know exactly what was written in the memo. it’s a surprise to them. it’s became more surprise, when they found out that poster of QE and MG was use. to them, why? im a malaysian, why use QE/MG, why not our own AGUNG poster! anyway, they were stuck at the roadblock and was unable to join the group. and the flowers they brought was use for decorations in the office instead. they work as a storeclerks/storekeepers.

  71. #71 by Godfather on Friday, 30 November 2007 - 2:18 am

    I don’t know why you guys make such a big fuss over what is really in the memo.

    We all agreed that the memo is nothing more than a red herring – the objective wasn’t to fight the British, but to draw the world’s attention to the marginalisation of the Indian community. In this, HINDRAF has succeeded, and the Indians in India now know what is happening and is seeking redress through their government. They (HINDRAF) did not want opposition support for obvious reasons, so why are we now flagellating (or whipping) ourselves for not supporting them explicitly ?

  72. #72 by Godfather on Friday, 30 November 2007 - 2:20 am

    Frankly, if the HINDRAF action has pushed some moderate Malays into the arms of UMNO, then so be it. The recognition that the minorities have been trampled on, and marginalised against, is more important, and I think we have to start educating the minorities against voting for the den of thieves than worrying about whether the Malays would vote one way or the other.

  73. #73 by undergrad2 on Friday, 30 November 2007 - 3:29 am

    “In this, HINDRAF has succeeded, and the Indians in India now know what is happening and is seeking redress through their government. They (HINDRAF) did not want opposition support for obvious reasons, so why are we now flagellating (or whipping) ourselves for not supporting them explicitly ?” Godfather

    Interesting, Godfather especially the bit about
    “flagellating”. My very small incomplete pocket dictionary says (and hope EARNEST is around so he could come out with other definitions. I’m sure there are) it means “flogging for sexual gratification”.

  74. #74 by undergrad2 on Friday, 30 November 2007 - 3:54 am

    Godfather, had you read my earlier PhD ‘thesis’ you’d know that the New Delhi government and Hindu fundamentalists never raised a finger to help their distressed and long suffering brothers and sisters in neigboring Bangladesh, but in fact sent the Hindus fleeing persecution back to Muslim Bangladesh!

    The Indian government has long marginalized its own minorities – the Punjabis, Sikhs and more. They stood by and watched Sikhs being murdered in the wake of the assassination of their Prime Minister not too long ago.

    The international community of nations is well aware of the marginalisation of ethnic minorites everywhere (a world wide phenomenon). They themselves are doing exactly the same to their minorities – the French are doing it to their minorities which include Pakistanis and Indians, Turks, Kurds, Iraqis and the Germans are doing it to the large Turkish communities, the French are doing it to their minorities from the former French territories like the Moroccans. The Brits?? They have been doing it to the Pakis for decades to the point of alienating the Muslim communities offering then little choice but to turn to terrorism to make a point.

    The Indonesians are doing it to their minorities which include the Chinese and the Achenese, the Menadonese, the Molukas and more.

    So what’s new??

    What’s new is the appeal to the Queen of England. I’m on the other side of the Pond, miles of ocean in between and I could hear the Queen rolling on the floor laughing!

  75. #75 by undergrad2 on Friday, 30 November 2007 - 3:59 am

    We need a little humor here!

  76. #76 by undergrad2 on Friday, 30 November 2007 - 4:02 am

    I hear laughter is still the best way to overcome terrorism. Imagine you sitting next to Osama and sharing a joke about playing ball!

  77. #77 by Jeffrey on Friday, 30 November 2007 - 4:23 am

    “Flagellating” – “flogging for sexual gratification” (Undergrad2 after consulting dictionary). Why the sexual/erotic nuance? Going back to epistemology of this word, a flagella, in biology, is an organism, cell or protozoa with whip-like appendage just like a spermatozoa. But flagellating is not just self inflicted erotic pleasure by whip, as in masochism, but has another meaning – to whip oneself, as in some religious rituals of Medieval times was to scourge oneself for religious discipline or public penance. Either interpretation the self inflicted pain from whipping is supposedly good for one’s self whether in erotic or religious sense.

  78. #78 by Jeffrey on Friday, 30 November 2007 - 4:36 am

    ….//…Why are we now flagellating (or whipping) ourselves…//…? Godfather
    Well maybe because self-flagellation is good by itself which a thinking man like Undergrad2 does in self questioning from anxiety to find right answers and to find meaning in what we do.

    And maybe the Hindraf organizers – P Uthayakumar, P Waythamoorthy, M Manoharan and S Ganabathi Rao – might or might not have done but whichever the case, surely should have done in a campaign of such weighty consequences, evaluating the pluses (+) and minuses (-) of:

    1. shooting at Brits with a frivolous trillion $ suit as red herring for international attention for Hindu Tamil’s plight here instead of the Malaysian Government direct;

    2. writing a memo to Gordon Brown with inciting words like ethnic cleansing and Tamil Indians in Sri Lanka;

    3. Making 25th Nov march exclusive in terms of reference other Malaysians and for that matter other Indians who are not Hindu Tamils.

  79. #79 by undergrad2 on Friday, 30 November 2007 - 6:21 am

    I knew Jeffrey QC would come to my aid!

    But you see when you find “Godfather” and Flagellating” in the same sentence, there can only be one meaning.

  80. #80 by undergrad2 on Friday, 30 November 2007 - 6:38 am

    “By the way, my argument is strictly confined to the purpose of the police permit under section 27 — and should not be extrapolated to include the whole police Act, Sedition Act, Printing Presses Act, Internal Security Act — as to why I am not worried about whether a rally is legal or otherwise if police permit is not granted arbitrarily. Police arrests and court sentences do not change my conviction. We must dare to defend our constitutional rights.” EARNEST

    Allow me to take this discussion to the latest thread on a related issue so others could contribute. Thanks.

  81. #81 by undergrad2 on Friday, 30 November 2007 - 7:11 am

    Am I not right that the drift of your argument is that we should not have provisos or qualifications to Article 10 of the Federal Malaysian Constitution, that the right to freedom of speech and expression, right to assembly without arms and the right to form associations should be absolute? We all agree that Article 10 of our Constitution should not be subject to Clauses (2), (3) and (4).

    But the fact is that there are qualifications to the said Article in the form of Clauses (2), (3) and (4)! That is the law and until repealed it continues to be the law.

    As for your contention that sections of the Police Act are, to quote you, “null and void because they contravene the Federal Constitution of 1957, the supreme law of the land” Jeffery QC has succinctly summarised the law and made it clear in his analysis that that is not the case. There is no conflict.

    “We must dare to defend our constitutional rights.” EARNEST

    If what you intend to say is that the original Article 10 has been amended over the years that it no longer bears any resemblance to the original – like commentator ALtPJK said of our Constitution – then I can see where you are going and we can all agree.

    Perhaps Jeffrey QC, the blog’s legal analyst, would like to confirm if Article 10 was amended to include Clauses (2) sub-clauses (a) (b) and (c), Clause (3) and Clause (4), that these were not there originally.

  82. #82 by undergrad2 on Friday, 30 November 2007 - 7:33 am

    “I am not worried about whether a rally is legal or otherwise if police permit is not granted arbitrarily.” EARNEST

    I’m not sure what you mean.

    If what you mean is that we should not be concerned whether a police permit is issued before we hold public demonstrations, I can only speak for myself and speaking for myself I am concerned and worried because I can be arrested – because then I would be breaking the law and breaking the law has its consequences and we have no control over them.

    Kasparov the world’s chess grandmaster was arrested and was only released after spending five days in jail in Moscow for participating in an “unauthorised” public demonstration. I am sure he knew he would be arrested but did it anyway.

    In the case of HINDRAF I believe they applied for a police permit. No police permit was issued making therefore the public demonstration illegal – but not immoral or wrong like our PhD student from Cambridge stated before he was run out of the blog for expressing his opinion!

  83. #83 by dawsheng on Friday, 30 November 2007 - 7:41 am

    According to one Mohandass Karamchand

    “This appeal to Queen Elizabeth and Mahatma Ghandi is a mistake. The banners scream ‘We are Malaysians’. To the other Malaysians, it seems to be that the protesters are Indian Hindus first and Malaysians second. The ethnic, religious identity is pushed forward. The name ‘Hindraf’ is also exclusive. It excludes Indians who are Christians, Sikhs and Muslims.”

    Who is Mohandass Karamchand? His statement is full of craps. That’s all I can say.

  84. #84 by dawsheng on Friday, 30 November 2007 - 7:48 am

    The Indian cannot change the facts that most of them are Hindus and the Hindus cannot suddenly just change to a multi-religious Indians in order to justify the Hindraf rally. One also cannot change the fact that the etnic Indians in Malaysia has been marginalised and persecuted, this is one fact enough to justify Hindraf’s action, be it without Christians, Sikhs and Muslims, or the Chinese and the Malays. The faults lies in multi-racial political parties who shouts about championing Malaysians’ rights but did nothing to help Hindraf. Stop being a hypocryte.

  85. #85 by undergrad2 on Friday, 30 November 2007 - 8:08 am

    Dawsheng, calm down!

    Go here to read more http://tunkuaisha.blogspot.com/

    “I am a Malay. I do not support Umno. I think Umno is a corrupt, selfish, boastful thief of the nation’s wealth. Name all the bad character traits – Umno has it. I fully support the Bersih demonstrations although I did not participate in it. Why do I support it? Because they were fighting for free and clean elections, the basis of democracy. People of all races participated although though the presence of some races was more than the others.

    But I do not support the Hindraf rally. Why? Because to me, it is racialist in nature and in its intentions. It is for the Indian cause only”

  86. #86 by undergrad2 on Friday, 30 November 2007 - 8:19 am

    “…The Indian cannot change the facts that most of them are Hindus and the Hindus cannot suddenly just change ..” dawsheng

    Point taken.

    But like the writer who is Indian in ethnicity but may not be a hindu, the nature of the assembly is that it is exclusive rather than inclusive and leaves many others among the Indians without representation.

  87. #87 by stk on Friday, 30 November 2007 - 8:44 am

    If the govt don’t handles this Hindraf issue properly,I ,m afraid if push to a corner with nothing to loose,hope it won’t be like Sri Lanka LTTE.

  88. #88 by Godfather on Friday, 30 November 2007 - 9:09 am

    Nobody in their right mind would resort to terrorism unless all other avenues of redress are closed to him/her. It wasn’t very long ago that UMNO championed the right of Palestinians to use terrorism as a tool. UMNO also championed the rights of Iraqis and Palestinians to use suicide bombers. To avert such things in Bolehland, what’s wrong with allowing peaceful demonstrations ?

    We may not support HINDRAF because their purpose is to highlight the Indian cause, but we can certainly sympathise with them. The nature of fighting for minority rights is the inevitability of going against the majority. If you want a multiracial march against marginalisation, then you can only count on the support of Chinese, Indians and other minorities. The Malays have to stay out of it.

  89. #89 by Godfather on Friday, 30 November 2007 - 9:13 am

    There is no self-flagellation in Sicilian folklore. Maybe Vatican, but not Sicilian. We have our own way of dispensing justice.

  90. #90 by g2geetoo on Friday, 30 November 2007 - 10:39 am

    I shall Dr.Toh a bluff!

    Man with no foresight or partially blind. He should have used his wisdom and fight along LKS of DAP instead salvaging some pride in his dying days!


  91. #91 by shaolin on Friday, 30 November 2007 - 10:51 am

    We heard of Ceylon’s Tamil Tiger Organization but very
    unfortunate we do not hear any thing like Malaysia TTO
    in the country…?!

    If things are getting out of hands, the only way to get
    things done is via TTO…!!

  92. #92 by oknyua on Friday, 30 November 2007 - 11:19 am

    “Man of no foresight..” g2geetoo.

    Please read the full text of Dr Toh’s letter in Malaysiakini. It is also in Malaysia Today.

    “Tamil Tigers..” Shaolin.

    I wonder if you have been through the insurgency years when CPM and PKK threatened everybody’s safety. Rice was rationed, every foodstuff purchased had to be recorded (inclusive of bisucits, coffee, etc), night time travel was impossible, schools closed, and each night, mortar bombs were heard in the hills just behind your house.

    You don’t believe old man like me, just ask any of your friends who have been to Sri Lanka. Churches bombed, people shot…

  93. #93 by Godamn Singh on Friday, 30 November 2007 - 11:32 am

    Don’t worry, Shaolin.

    Malaysian Tamils are forming a terrorist organization to fight for their rights! When they do Sri Lanka’s Tamil Tigers would look like a bunch of school boys playing Red Indians and Cowboys.

  94. #94 by lakalaka69 on Friday, 30 November 2007 - 11:35 am

    Now they accusing the HINDRAF rally as racially motivated. Do you agree?. They are trying to twist the whole thing and blame the rally for racial issue.

    It is the goverment which is controlled by the Malay majority is trying to manipulate the whole incident for racial issue.

    I urge the goverment to stop playing racial issue for their own interest. DAMM!

  95. #95 by DiaperHead on Friday, 30 November 2007 - 11:39 am

    Malaysia’s own Tamil Tigers??

  96. #96 by DiaperHead on Friday, 30 November 2007 - 11:43 am

    “Now they accusing the HINDRAF rally as racially motivated. Do you agree?” lakalak69

    What do you call something that looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and may be walk like a duck – but a duck???

  97. #97 by k1980 on Friday, 30 November 2007 - 12:11 pm

    Constitution to be ammended again
    the government was fast-tracking the amendments in order to keep Abdul Rashid Abdul Rahman as EC chairperson. This is because Abdul Rashid turns 66 on Dec 31 and should by right retire. But by proposing the constitutional amendments to raise the age limit for the Election Commission members, the government gets to keep dear Abdul Rashid as the ‘independent’ Election Commissioner to serve at least another one year.

  98. #98 by Jeffrey on Friday, 30 November 2007 - 1:48 pm

    “There is no self-flagellation in Sicilian folklore. Maybe Vatican, but not Sicilian. We have our own way of dispensing justice” – Godfather.

    Let’s be frank even in the Mafia language : if you want to redress your grievances and protect your legitimate turf from a bigger gangster with heavier Artillery, better use your wits and sophisticated strategy, mobilise stronger allies, than just take him on in the streets exchanging fire power. :)

  99. #99 by budak on Friday, 30 November 2007 - 3:02 pm

    K1980, it’s cuntfirmed Abdul Rashid Abdul Rahman is th culprit of disunity of the nation… can ABB charge him under ISA too…???

  100. #100 by Godfather on Friday, 30 November 2007 - 9:40 pm

    Jeffrey: What makes you think that I am talking about a Capone-style shootout ? No, guerilla tactics are necessary in the face of much heavier artillery. We are not suicidal people !

  101. #101 by Godfather on Friday, 30 November 2007 - 10:00 pm

    Who is this Colin Nathan guy ? I suppose he is of Indian origin.

    He wrote:

    In 2004, Morgan Stanley issued a report that estimated that over
    100 Billion US Dollars (360 Billion Ringgit) had been lost to Malay
    patronage in the 20 years preceding 2003. (1984 to 2003) One economist
    estimates that in the 36 years of its’ existence, the NEP has been used to
    channel over ONE TRILLION RINGGIT to the Malay community through
    ASN, ASB and other related Govt policies.

    Since 1970, the Govt has used the NEP to divert education, employment
    and every other conceivable benefit to the Malays. These measures have
    largely been successful with all the top posts in GLCs, Government,
    Universities, Public listed companies and practically every single area
    that the Govt has any control over being reserved for one race. No
    company may be listed with a lower than 30% Bumi (short for “Bumiputera”,

    meaning “princes of the earth”, a self-titled euphemism for the Malays) industries

    have a mandatory 51% Bumi ownership and some industries are reserved
    exclusively for them. Petronas for example only employs Malays for it’s
    top managerial and executive positions and awards contracts only to

    ALL Govt and Municipal contracts are reserved to class “F” Bumi
    contractors. All the proposed projects under the 9th Malaysia Plan thus far are
    reserved for 100% Bumi owned companies. Even open tender projects are
    awarded to Malays even if their prices are higher with blatantly
    inferior materials. Micro business loans, business licenses, discounts on property
    purchases, new Govt employment, EVEN LICENSES FOR HAWKER STALLS are
    reserved for one race. The list goes on and on but the summary is that
    the Malays now believes undoubtedly that he is racially privileged and
    it is their right. ASLI’s figures of 45% are opposed to the Govt’s 18.9%
    because, firstly, equity value is calculated at par value. For example,
    if you hold 1,000 Maxis shares of RM 5/- market value each, the Govt
    says that it is only worth RM 250.00 as these shares have a par value of
    25 cents each. If you owned a company with a paid up value of RM 2/- but
    conducted business worth millions of Ringgit worth of transactions, the
    Govt values that company at RM 2/-.

    The chief setbacks of the abuses of the NEP are rampant corruption and
    more cronyism, worsening racial polarization, unrelenting brain drains,
    warped educational system, thwarted economic competitiveness,
    ineffectual bureaucracy, retarded economic growth and perverted social
    values. Such anachronistic and regressive policy has no place in the
    present globalizing world, and for that matter, in any civilized

    PM Badawi recently intensified the imprint of the perverted NEP
    philosophy by prohibiting inter-religious and inter-racial discourse
    which would otherwise have contributed to greater understanding and
    harmony among the races. Consider the hegemony this has created.

    The Jasin MP’s saga of cheating millions from Customs over timber
    imports went unpunished. APs are reserved for Bumis only and despite the
    millions that each of them make year after year, a senator’s son has the
    audacity to clone the APs several times and the whole thing gets swept
    under the carpet. A Port Klang councilor buys a 43,000 sq ft plot of land set aside for
    low cost housing valued at 1.8 million Ringgit for 180k and builds a
    palace without any approval. He gets fined RM 5,000 and still has 30
    days from today to submit his building plans. Yesterday, despite all the
    bad press this issue got, the Selangor state Govt confirms his position
    and that of his son and daughter in law as councilors. The message is
    clear. Power has shifted from the people to the executive.

    The whole issue of Bumi chauvinism started at last year’s UMNO assembly
    when the very very vocal UMNO Youth leaders stated in short that “It’s
    our turn to be rich.” This greed is not going to end. We as a nation of
    loyal citizens have to put a dent into this rubbish for the sake of our

    We don’t need a change in Govt.
    We need a stronger Opposition.
    We need to send a message to the powers that be that we will not accept second
    class status for our children.

    Colin Nathan
    (A Concerned Malaysian)

    Source: Unknown

  102. #102 by shaolin on Friday, 30 November 2007 - 11:16 pm

    oknyua & GoDamn Singh,

    I have not been thru the CPM insurgency years but I heard
    some stories from old people about Japanese Invasion of
    WW2 and the CPM insurgency days!!

    In those days when CPM were around, Malayan Gomen was
    very tactful and considerate to all its peoples’ well being!!

    Now, w/o the CPM(Communist Party M’sia), UMNO is doing
    things as they think RIGHT and needless to consult any
    other races and with careless attitudes!!

    To them, All of YOU are NOT important as You Are treated
    like ‘Pendatang Haram’…!!

    We need to restore some form of forces back to the track
    to instill The ‘Check & Balance’ System in our Political
    Arena…!! Without any strong POWER, no one WILL listen
    to Your Grievences and Sufferings!!

    To the Politicians, this is a ‘NORM’!!

  103. #103 by DiaperHead on Saturday, 1 December 2007 - 2:37 am

    “Tunku :Hindraf is too much when they want foreign power to interfere in Malaysia.these group has no love for Malaysia but themselves. again Hindraf is attacking Malay and Muslim. iI think they are getting out of control and government should act fast before the Malays and Muslims act themselves.”

    Hint! Hint!


  104. #104 by undergrad2 on Saturday, 1 December 2007 - 3:23 am


    A suicide bomber has taken two of Hilary Clinton’s staff hostages. Hostage taker demanding to speak to the Senator. Sen. Clinton is not in the Office. Hostage take allowed a man and a woman and a child in the office to leave the Office.

  105. #105 by EARNEST on Saturday, 1 December 2007 - 3:26 am


    Definition of flagellating as a verb

    The meanings of flagellating in the context you used (as a verb) are as follows:

    [1] flagellated, flagellating
    1. To whip someone or oneself, for the purposes either of
    religious penance or for sexual stimulation.
    Thesaurus: beat, whip, flog, thrash, flay.
    [2] tr.v. flag•el•lat•ed, flag•el•lat•ing, flag•el•lates
    1. To whip or flog; scourge.
    2. To punish or impel as if by whipping.
    [3] flagellate
    verb [T] FORMAL
    to whip someone, especially as a religious act
    to whip; scourge; flog; lash.

    Basing on the following online dictionaries:

    General dictionaries General (5 matching dictionaries)
    1. flagellating : Cambridge International Dictionary of English
    2. flagellating : Dictionary.com
    3. Flagellating : Online Plain Text English Dictionary
    4. Flagellating : AllWords.com Multi-Lingual Dictionary
    5. flagellating : Dictionary/thesaurus
    Medicine dictionaries Medicine (1 matching dictionary)
    6. flagellating : Medical dictionary

    The Constitution discussion.
    I attempted to simplify the definition of the above word in the context you used as a verb. That word can mean some form of microscopic structures of microorganism, etc, etc., which were deliberately omitted.

    Similarly, in the discussion of Article 10 of the constitution, in order to simplify things, I had deliberately omitted other irrelevant clauses — such as rights to freedom of speeches and associations — except for that pertaining to rights to peaceful assembly without arms – clause 1 (b).

    I can see your concern about qualifications which allowed for restrictions of our rights as opposed to the American system, the First Amendments where you rightly pointed out “Congress shall not make laws against certain rights”.

    That allowance for restriction had been abused after the 513 tragedy by Malay capitalists in bringing about the police permit as a prerequisite to legalize rallies, in the police act section 27.

    My conviction is based on the purpose for the existence and good intention of the law which I had mentioned earlier in another thread, which I shall illustrate with the following analogy.

    If I give you a diamond ring, I assume that you understand that you have the freedom to wear it whenever you wish without having to obtain my permission. Okay you may say that is the First Amendment, not applicable to our case.

    In the case of our constitution, when I give you a diamond ring, I tell you that for your security, we need to discuss further whenever you wish to wear it.

    Then Parliament came in to set conditions ostensibly for your security. Situation turned bad, 513 happened.

    Our relationship soured. I tell you now that you must get my permission to wear that diamond ring, else I am going to whack you.

    What would you do? The ring was given to you. It belonged to you, so you are going to wear it despite the fact that I did not grant you permission to wear it.

    I said, remember, when I gave you the ring, we need to discuss about security? And now this is the outcome, you need my permission, else I am going to whack you.

    I do not think it is right for me to restrict your freedom to wear the diamond ring. It is rightfully yours. You are entitled to think that when I said we would discuss about security at the moment I gave you the ring, it was in good faith in your interest. That means if you are going to wear the diamond ring in an unsafe place full of thugs, you let me know, I will engage bodyguards to protect you. I can not say “No you can not wear it. If you wear it, I am going to whack you.”

    You will say “I don’t care whether you are going to give me permission to wear the diamond ring or not. I am going to wear it, and you can not stopped me by threatening to whack me. If you are worried that I may get robbed, you provide me protection, because I took it to mean in good faith when you said we need to discuss security matters when you gave it to me”.

    So, when Parliament set conditions for the rally, it should be in good faith. The police permit should serve the purpose of ensuring that the applicants are protected from harm in their rallies. The police permit should not be denied arbitrarily. That is why, I had suggested that “Police Permit” should be changed to “Police Protection Permit” to reflect the spirit of the clause on security to provide protection rather than to deny or grant us our rights to peaceful assembly at the police’s — rather their political masters’ — whims and fancy, which has given rise to problems of double standards.

    And as reported in yesterday’s papers, Abdullah attempted to defend KJ indirectly in talking about the Palestinian issue being of top priority for peace in the middle east, and threatening would-be demonstrators. He has political motives in trying to hoodwink us that KJ’s demonstration was justified, Bersih and Hindraf’s demonstrations were not justified.

  106. #106 by undergrad2 on Saturday, 1 December 2007 - 6:11 am

    “I can see your concern about qualifications which allowed for restrictions of our rights as opposed to the American system, the First Amendments where you rightly pointed out “Congress shall not make laws against certain rights”.” EARNEST

    You should not be comparing Malaysia’s Federal Constitution of 1957 to the Constitution of the United States. The latter is a document treated with great respect and regarded as sacred; there are 7 Articles and only 27 Amendments compared to some 600 plus amendments (according to ALtPJK our commentator here) and counting, to our Constitution since Independence in 1957.

    The First Amendment is about freedom of religion, freedom of speech and the “right of the people peaceably to assemble.” It begins by saying “Congress shall make no law …(in respect of the freedoms mentioned)” Cf with our Article 10 Federal Constitution 1957 which allows Parliament to restrict our fundamental liberties “if it deems necessary or expedient in the interest of the security of the Federation…”

    It gives unfettered powers to Parliament to pass legislation and to the executive to determine what constitutes a threat to national security. Should we be concerned? Of course we should!

  107. #107 by Godamn Singh on Saturday, 1 December 2007 - 6:58 am

    I think, Earnest forgot to take his medications again!!

  108. #108 by DiaperHead on Saturday, 1 December 2007 - 7:00 am

    I agree with Godamn Sing. Earnest forgot to take his medications again!!

  109. #109 by EARNEST on Saturday, 1 December 2007 - 12:34 pm

    It gives unfettered powers to Parliament to pass legislation and to the executive to determine what constitutes a threat to national security. Should we be concerned? Of course we should! — Undergrad2

    Well said. Are you are civil, criminal or constitution law student or lawyer?

    You are right. I was just stating my personal conviction as to why I do not worry about whether a rally is legal or not if police permit is denied. To me, there is no justification to label a rally illegal just because a police permit has been denied without reason.
    I will be willing to participate in it, if the need arises. if I believe in the cause, and the rally is organized properly, with the world watching. I will not do it quietly for the purpose of doing just to defy the law, and get clobbered, kicked and dragged away by 5 FRUs and nobody knows about it. That will be a great waste of time and asking for trouble.

    Godamn Singh, DiaperHead,
    Yes, I have just taken my allergy medications. Rashes and hives appeared suddenly upon reading your comments. However, no resentment as promised. You both have good sense of humor.

  110. #110 by Jeffrey on Saturday, 1 December 2007 - 1:13 pm

    So is Raja Muda of Perak Raja Nazrin Shah, whom everyone respects, wrong in urging Malaysians to respect the rule of law and not resort to challenging the law and enforcement agencies by “importing and introducing a foreign culture…” (he meant street demonstrations) as reported on page N10 of The Star 30th November ?

  111. #111 by Jeffrey on Saturday, 1 December 2007 - 1:22 pm

    Undegrad2’s concern, as all others here, about Parliament being given unfettered powers pass legislation by which executive/authjorities have, as in the Police Act, the sole discretion to determine what constitutes a threat to national security is altogether a different issue from that by the others whether our Constitution and laws give the Parliament/Executive that discretion to determine when to issue or withhold the permit and how when such permit is withheld, the asembly will be unlawful.

    The debate, as I understand it here, is not on the morality of the law or what ought to be the law but what is actually the law and whether having a demonstration without sanction of permit is unlawful qualifying the constitutional right to assembly.

  112. #112 by undergrad2 on Saturday, 1 December 2007 - 3:53 pm


    My comments above were in reply to issues raised by EARNEST on an earlier thread. EARNEST appears to be mixing up ‘opinion’, ‘law the way it should be’ (in his opinion) and ‘law as it is’. I am not concerned with ‘opinion’ which as you very well know, as the blog’s Chief Legal Correspondent, is irrelevant to issues of law.

    I felt the need to put so to speak our friend EARNEST back on track.

    As to the legality or lack thereof of the police permit, and the matter of public demonstrations being illegal as a result and whether people should take to the streets without a police permit, these issues have been mixed together by none other than the Cambridge wannabe Tun Limkaput. Lee Wang Yen, the real Cambridge scholar, tried to separate the issues and separated them he did (and did so succinctly) the issue of legality or illegality from issues of morality. I thought his analogy about a priest smuggling in a bible is clear for all to see. Sometimes we need to break the law because the law is unfair and unjust to those who merely seek justice. That is Lee’s thesis – as a student of philosophy.

  113. #113 by undergrad2 on Saturday, 1 December 2007 - 3:57 pm

    “Well said. Are you are civil, criminal or constitution law student or lawyer?” EARNEST

    None of the above.

  114. #114 by Jeffrey on Saturday, 1 December 2007 - 4:28 pm

    As I recently posted under thread (Review NEP Before Too Late) which never appeared so far, I sense that increasingly more and more people (in this Blog or out in the streets demonstrating) – I would categorise them as the marginalised or opporessed group -have no more stake in dialogue and are not interested to reason and distinguish between what is and what ought to be – especially pertaining to law or legality probably because they feel that the law is stacked against them and the referee (judiciary) is no more non partisan to give them a fair go at redress. More important the other side ie Powers to be are mala fide extinguishing all hope in using talk and reason/balanced perspectives to rectify wrongdoings, which can only be done when the other side is bona fide. That being the case, reasonable talk and persuasion is waste of time, and action is the way – like what Hindraf did – and as far as the government and its ministers are concernde, whatever the say or do will have to be wrong and opposed all the way.

  115. #115 by EARNEST on Saturday, 1 December 2007 - 4:42 pm

    Raja Muda of Perak Raja Nazrin Shah is entitled to his opinion as much as we are entitled to our opinions. However respectable a person, it is not incumbent upon us to agree with him.

    If the Hindraf & Bersih rallies were truly illegal being against the spirits of Article 10 of the Constitution, I have nothing to say but to agree that he was perfectly right in holding to his opinion. But, it appeared to me that the justification and grievances were real to them, and that the denial of the police permit had violated their constitutional rights to peaceful assembly. So I beg to differ with him on their right to peaceful demonstration despite denial of police permit.

    I have some exposure to research methodologies and simple logical reasonings. I am not a genius, IQ at 135, I am an ordinary person like all of you. We shall use common sense, and not jargons that most of us do not understand.

    Perhaps, I may explain my position using simple syllogism as follows:

    I suppose Cambridge Lee’s and your argument was as follows:

    A=B, C=A, therefore C=B, where B is the major term, A the middle term, and C, the minor term.

    A=Rallies without police permit
    C=Hindraf&Bersih rallies

    You argue that since Rallies without police permit are illegal, and Hindraf&Bersih are Rallies without police permit, therefore Hindraf&Bersih rallies are illegal.

    This line of reasoning can be dangerous as shown below:

    An ass is obstinate
    Godamn Singh is obstinate
    Therefore Godamn Singh is an ass

    Godamn Singh, just borrow your handle. please take it good
    humoredly. No offence intended.

    Jokes aside, I am not relying on the above Godamn Singh syllogism in this discussion.

    The problem with the police permit-legality syllogism is that I can not link A with B. I can not accept it without protest. It is controversial, and against the spirit of Article 10 of the Constitution.

    I maintain that section 27, especially subsections (2), (2A) TO (2D), (4), (4A), (5), (5A) to (5C), (7) and (8) of section 27A of the Police Act 1967, contravene the spirit of Article 10 (1) (b) of the Constitution pertaining to “all citizens have the right to assemble peaceably and without arms”, and as such I consider it null and void. Since, it is my opinion. It is not falsifiable.

    Of course you may say that considering it null and void does not really make it null and void. That is beside the point. My action is based on my conviction and not what the powers-that-be says. That is important and not a purely academic pedantic argument on what the Powers-that-be want us to believe, with threats of arrest and court orders. Acceptance without protest would lend it credence.

    In the 16th-17th century, Galileo Galilei was forced to recant publicly his theory that the sun was at the center of the solar system and say instead that the earth was at the center of the universe, he had to say it but he knew that it was not true, otherwise he could be flagellated — Undergad2, nothing sexual, purely religious flogging, like in Passion of Christ. He spent the last years of his life under house arrest on orders of the Inquisition.

    If you are incarcerated, and the condition for your release is to say publicly that “yes it is illegal to hold rallies without police permit”, you may have to comply even though you know that the permit should be void for contravening the spirit of Article 10 (1) (b) of the Federal Constitution. But, this would be extreme transgression to 17th century Inquisitional attitude.

  116. #116 by Jeffrey on Saturday, 1 December 2007 - 6:12 pm


    I have never based my conclusion that Hindraf&Bersih rallies are illegal based on simplistic syllogism of A=B, C=A, therefore C=B, where A=Rallies without police permit, B=Illegal and C=Hindraf&Bersih rallies.

    I thought we have made it abundantly clear that whether Rallies without police permit of which Hindraf&Bersih rallies are without such permits are ultimately illegal depends on another factor (call it Factor “D” if you will ) ie. whether it is contravening the constitutional right of assembly in Article 10(1)(b) – and that whether it contravenes the right to assemble in article 10(1)(b) is dependent on whether other parts of the Constitution permit such contravention. (If the other parts don’t say anything, then the Police Act will be struck down as invalid for contravening the provisions of the Constitution, a basic supreme law).

    The situation is however different if other parts of the Constitution permit article 10(1)(b) to be so restricted in which case there is no contravention because the Constitution itself, as adjudged from the other parts expressly provide so.

    An example of “the other parts” is article 10(2) which says “Parliament MAY BY LAW impose on them (meaning fundamental liberties including right to assembly) such restrictions as it deems necessary or expedient in the interest of the security of the Federation or any part thereof.

    The Police Act is such enacted by Parliament; its provisions require a police permit for a right of assembly to be exercised. Its provisions say that the police may withhold such permit and restrict such right to assembly based its assessment of security and public order.

    The Police Act comes therefore within Constitutional permission for restriction stated in Article10(2).

    Since the Constitution by Article 10(2) permits Parliament to enact laws like the Police Act to restrict Freedom of Assembly based on considerations of public security and order, the Police Act becomes perfectly and legally valid – unfaultable for its restricting of free exercise of the right of assembly under article 10(1)(b), such restriction not being in contravention of the Constitutional provision under Article 10(1)(b) on Freedom of Assembly. I cannot make it any clearer to you. If the Police Act is valid and unimpugnable by the Constitution, then the Bersig/Hindraf Rallies without a permit from it are illegal or unlawful.

    No one here uses simple syllogism that –
    1. An ass is obstinate;
    2. Godamn Singh is obstinate;
    3. therefore Godamn Singh is an ass
    without considering relevant other factor D whether the ass or Godamn Singh is human or beast.

    But even after considering that, we would take that the ass is “obstinate” whilst Godamn Singh is differently “firm” because the latter being human has better faculty to reason and has good reasons as to why he does not change or want to change his course or position that he takes – though for both the factual situations of the ass and the Singh are the same, as in not changing course or position!

  117. #117 by EARNEST on Saturday, 1 December 2007 - 7:35 pm


    I can see that it you will wait until the day your factor D is repealed in Parliament, then only you will agree that rallies without police permit is legal. It is very safe to hold this view, with the protection of Powers-that-be. I am not waiting for that to happen to change my conviction, and I believe nothing will change for the better in waiting perhaps a lifetime in a worse case scenario.

    On the other hand, who knows, it may be pretty soon with the active involvement of SUHAKAM, other human rights organizations, the Malaysian bar council, NGOs and other civil societies. But, if they are ignored because the populace is cowed by threats of arrests because the Powers-that-be supported by intellectuals said so, we may have to wait a lifetime.

    I suggest that we end this discourse, else nobody will take part in mass rallies to air their grievances because highly respected bloggers scared them into believing that what they planned to do is illegal. Let disgruntled people based their decisions on their own convictions. A person can be right, dead right. Living dead.

  118. #118 by Jeffrey on Saturday, 1 December 2007 - 10:44 pm

    My thinking and conclusion is guided by what objectively is the case, legal or not legal which has nothing to do with what it, the law, or the moral situation ought to be, no matter how much I would have personally wished for it.

    The conclusion also has nothing to do with whether “it is very safe to hold this view, with the protection of Powers-that-be”.

    It has everything to do with when one looks at article 10(1)(b) read in conjunction with artivcle 10(2), what the plain words of these articles tell us is the case in their ordinary and grammatical meaning.

  119. #119 by EARNEST on Monday, 3 December 2007 - 3:12 am

    The English language is not an instrument of mathematical precision. The application of Algebra may even obfuscate the truth.

    Article 10(1)(b) and 10(2) does not mention anything about Police permit. 10(2)(b) mentions something about restrictions, which I interpret to be in good faith, which is the reason for its existence.

    Besides my personal convictions on the spirits rather than the letters and good intentions of constitutional laws, what also matters is the perception of law enforcement, on whether rally without police permit=illegal.

    Does it ever occur to you to ask if it is illegal to deny police permit without justification because it infringes on our constitutional rights?

    If rally without police permit=illegal, then consequences=”Yes”

    If consequences=”No”? then what? You don’t care whether it is legal or not, because it is just a futile academic exercise to debate on it.

    A proven illegal act must have consequences, else it can not be illegal. There is no doubt that shoplifting, murder and rape if proven can not escape consequences provided by the penal codes and CPC. We can not challenge their legality.

    Ask yourself, why are the leaders and those 2000 people who participated in the Walk of Justice by the Malaysian Bar not arrested if rally without police permit is illegal? Their conviction that what they did was right was so strong that they were not bothered whether it was legal or not. They told the police, if they wanted to arrest them, go ahead.

    But, why are those arrested in the Bersih demonstrations not charged with illegal assembly, but some silly charges of endangering the lives of Children under the Child Protection Act? Why are the leaders, such as YB Lim, Anwar Ibrahim and Hadi not arrested and face consequences for taking part in illegal assembly? Their faces were shown on TV.

    If an illegal action is committed, and there is no consequence for it, is it illegal then? The answer is not important anymore.

    If so, there must be uniformity.

    If the Powers-that-be have their fingers on the pulse of society and are smart, Section 27 of the police Act, which came into being out of the exigencies of May 13 would be scrapped off immediately to remove any doubt whether a rally without police permit is illegal.

    It is a matter of time before that happens. Precedence had already been set where there were no consequences for “illegal” peaceful assembly.

You must be logged in to post a comment.