Hindraf rally – police stop over-reacting, dismantle roadblocks and issue permit


The police should not repeat their over-reaction and high-handed action on Nov. 10 over the peaceful 40,000-people Bersih gathering to hand over a petition to the Yang di Pertuan Agong for electoral reforms to ensure free, fair and clean elections and should immediately dismantle the roadblocks creating massive jams in Kuala Lumpur and the Klang Valley since yesterday.

The massive Nov. 10 traffic gridlock creating massive congestions in Kuala Lumpur and Klang Valley were largely the creation of the police and could have been avoided or ameliorated considerably with enlightened and sensitive police handling of peaceful gatherings by citizens exercising their fundamental constitutional rights to get their voices heard in a meaningful democracy.

If the Police had issued a police permit for the Bersih peaceful gathering on Nov. 10, demonstrating greater sensitivity and respect for human rights guaranteed in the Malaysian Constitution as recommended by the Dzaiddin Royal Police Commission 30 months ago, all legitimate concerns would have been met — the concerns of the police and government with regard to law and order and the concerns of aggrieved citizenry to petition the Yang di Pertuan Agong for an end to electoral abuses.

For the Hindraf rally on Sunday, the Police has not only refused to learn any lesson to respect the human rights of Malaysians to peaceful assembly, but has decided even earlier to impose roadblocks — starting since yesterday on various roads and expressways in the Klang Valley.

Headlines of such traffic gridlocks are already in the media — “Klang Valley chokes up” (The Star), “Roadblocks mounted ahead of Hindraf rally” (The Sun), “Massive traffic jams leading into the city” (New Straits Times) and “Police roadblocks jam up roads, again” (Malaysiakini).

From all indications, the traffic gridlock in Kuala Lumpur and the Klang Valley this time is going to be worse than a fortnight ago — no thanks to the police.

The police should stop over-reacting, dismantle the roadblocks creating massive jams in KL and Klang Valley and issue police permit for the Hindraf rally.

The Inspector-General of Police Tan Sri Musa Hassan has again threatened prosecution against parents for bringing their children to any peaceful assembly.

Musa and all police personnel must be reminded that such warnings cannot absolve them of responsibility to ensure that the police do not harm children and women by abuse of power and excessive use of force in any crowd control.

The world has unforgettable images of the Myanmar military brutalizing defenceless monks in the September “saffron revolution”. Does Musa want the world to have equally unforgettable images of the Malaysian police brutalizing children?

The Inspector-General of Police must ensure that nothing is done to turn Nov. 25 into a bloody Sunday in Kuala Lumpur, which can only add shame and ignominy to Malaysia’s international reputation.

  1. #1 by madmix on Friday, 23 November 2007 - 10:31 am

    The Bersih rally had a lot of Malay participants. This one polis may not show much restraint.

  2. #2 by k1980 on Friday, 23 November 2007 - 10:39 am

    Do African-Americans need to state their race and religion when filling forms?
    http://balajoe27.wordpress.com/2007/11/22/hindraf-protest-–-realistic-way-out/
    Considering that a group of “minority” asking an ex-colonial master seems to say a lot of things about the current government. It also paints a very undesirable picture of the party who is claiming to champion the rights of the minority – MIC. After the 10-Eleven rally and the “boo-boo” that our Information Minister did in Al-Jazeera interview, “Mr Clean” image of Pak Lah is eroding fast in the eyes of the international community.

  3. #3 by smeagroo on Friday, 23 November 2007 - 10:39 am

    yes they will go down hard on thsi group and teach the rest a lesson. End of the day they will say “I told you so riots will happen”.

    The roadblocks are just a ploy to frustrate the rest of the society so that they will look at rallies negatively.

    Is there really a need to do searches? THey shld be busy doing roadblocks at housing estates and check motorcyclists for weapons as there may be probable snatch thieves on the prowl.

    What a bunch of idiots!

  4. #4 by sotong on Friday, 23 November 2007 - 10:48 am

    Whatever happen the government must be held totally responsible for the safety and security of peaceful participants, including women and their childrens.

  5. #5 by RealWorld on Friday, 23 November 2007 - 11:04 am

    “Whatever happen the government must be held totally responsible for the safety and security of peaceful participants, including women and their childrens.” – sotong

    Fully agree! Thats why the police have set up road blocks to ensure the safety of the people.

  6. #6 by greenacre on Friday, 23 November 2007 - 11:04 am

    In the exodus they said “let my people go” .Well Mr. Policeman give them the permit to march and hand over the memo to the British. This country is a race based one for sure. From the constitution to a simple form. Where did all this start if not the Brits handing over. So we begin where it began.
    I am biased of course…why I still have the rubber tapping knife’s mark on my body and my loved ones are buried in a valley now grown over with oil palm trees. The tears a tapper can be bundled into mega volumes. The pain just doesn’t seem to go away.

  7. #7 by WFH on Friday, 23 November 2007 - 11:05 am

    The refusal of the permit by the Police to Hindraf, and especially the outright and blatant intent to cause passive but MASSIVE disturbance to civic society by setting up police roadblocks to disrupt everyday life of the people of KL amounts to holding society hostage to their unbridled abuse of authority and power, and it is BLACKMAIL to the citizens. How come the Bkt Bintang people under Mr Ayam Lee Chong Meng (him a Senator..!!??!!#@!?) have not yet held another press conference complaining about the police “disruption” to their multi-million lost business since yesterday?

    Hello…. Nazri?? Did you say the IPCMC Bill will be tabled this Parlaimentary sitting?? We’re all waiting – for its tabling as well as to see how diluted it has become, from the original recommendations of the Royal Commission!

    Yes, I will not be surprised if this Hindraf group sadly, will suffer the full brunt of police brutish power, simply for being of their community. At least this time, more international journalists will be there becasue of the police freely doing the marketing for Hindraf’s cause. How is it that MIC/SV+Co and PPP/Kayveas+Co are mute to this impending demolition of their community’s very basic right to voice out their grievances in public?

    Hindraf/Utayakumar, come Sunday, back down, NOT!

  8. #8 by sani on Friday, 23 November 2007 - 11:08 am

    It is really surprizing that our police force that cannot even catch mat rempits, can see it fit to mobilize, days before a peaceful demo. Maybe they need some practice, just in case BN lose 2/3 majority?

    I am not an Indian, but i am color blind enough, to see that our Indian compatriots has a point or two. Mind you Hindraf, is really brave + are real democrats. What else can be done? What can be so wrong? It is only human nature to get together to get ones disappoinment known. We Malaysian do it all the time. In good times, we have open house, gotong royong, in villiages all come together to make a dinner successful + so on. Even political parties gather once a year, some even bring knifes to wave around.

    If all done in a peaceful manner, like the Bersih gathering, the world will look at us as a mature society. So the police force should take the rakyats’ lead. Stop being so childish, put away all your riot gears. You might frigthen the tourists. Be a man, go catch snatch thieves, child rapist, corrupted elected officers or even those illegal migrants that burn your police cars.

    Have a good day on Sunday + i am quite sure the Queen won’t be here. She called me last nite, she is afraid of the water cannons.

  9. #9 by People on Friday, 23 November 2007 - 11:10 am

    The police should allow the gathering and just guard around that area!!

    They should not create inconvenience, fear and injustice to the rakyat with their over reaction over some rumours !! Talk about professional and civilize people …I mean force!

  10. #10 by Libra2 on Friday, 23 November 2007 - 11:29 am

    If Hindraf wins the case each Indian Malaysian will stand to get RM 3.4 million. May I know if Tun Mahathir and Zam will also be entitled to this RM 3.4 million payout?

  11. #11 by eagleye on Friday, 23 November 2007 - 11:38 am

    Is police force to help public? Doubt. Gov complaint lost of income more than a million on Bersih rally, but what they doing now? continous Road blocks in major roads? Doesn’t create any loss eh? Is that they trying hard to avoid jams on 25 NOV 07 by creating massive jams for five days? What a brilliant… Why so scared? They just want to give petition. Just make sure there is no chaos on that day. After that all peace. Why creating a scenes… More free publicities to the world? Ah, please act rationally.

  12. #12 by sheriff singh on Friday, 23 November 2007 - 11:51 am

    Is Hindraf more popular than all the Indian political parties? The MIC, the Indian Progressive Front (IPF) among others are so fearful of them that they have come out openly to “advise” their members not to support this gathering and warned that disciplinary action will be taken against members those who attend.

    Even the Police is so frightened of this gathering that they have had to issue several similar warnings and refuse a permit. Many roadblocks have been set up as can be seen by the massive traffic jams these past few days. It would appear that a massive turn-out ala the 10/11 size or more is being expected.

    Even the government is worried as can be seen by the several statements made by senior cabinet ministers including the impotent Indian “wira” Samy Vellu. (Pak Lah, you paying attention? Oh I forgot, you will be overseas again heading for Kampala leaving Najib “in charge”.)

    It would appear that the MIC, IPF and all the other Indian based parties are impotent and ineffective in raising the lot of their community. They have failed miserably in taking care of the community that they say they represent.

    Consequently this is what we will get; the community is fed up and is taking steps to highlight their plight as no one, not the MIC or IPF or any one else is helping them. The community feels heavily marginalised, feel no place in the sun for them and they continue to be harrassed.

    They feel their votes are not important. No one, especially the government, takes them seriously or pay attention to them. Maybe they should show Samy Vellu the door in Sungei Siput next time around. Make sure he loses badly and send him into retirement. Imagaine, the MIC head losing his hair, sorry, seat. Yess!!! That would be something.

    Well, let us see what happens on Sunday, 25/11.

  13. #13 by Bigjoe on Friday, 23 November 2007 - 12:21 pm

    If 40,000 people, with many PAS supporters, can do a peaceful rally through KL, then 10,000 non-Malays can do much better. The excuse of ‘peace and stability’ is nonsense.

    If there is any violence coming from this, its the police fault and we should not care who started it.

    This rally is more important and has more legitimacy than Bersih rally and ‘walk of justice’. In fact its a test of Malaysian especially the Chinese. Will they support it and come out what is a debate they have lot more to gain or will they stay on the sideline and confirm their non-ownership of this country.

    This is about the NEP and ‘special right’. 50 years after independence, should the question not be settled once and for all and lose the pretense? No one is expecting things to be fair, just the rules to be clear.

  14. #14 by cheng on soo on Friday, 23 November 2007 - 12:23 pm

    Be realistic lah! Libra2, Where Brit go such big sum of money to pay you, May be only 4 countries had an annual GDP of more than US$3 trillion, UK excluded.
    But Msia police are real idiot, let Hindraf go on!, even if Hindraf success in claiming US$0.5 trillion, (ie US$500 billion) and bring this money to Msia, then our economy will boom again

  15. #15 by HJ Angus on Friday, 23 November 2007 - 12:54 pm

    While the Indian community does have a major problem in getting their grievances heard in a system that has marginalised them for years, this protest to the UK appears rather far-fetched.

    The amount claimed of RM2m for each Indian in Malaysia will have little chance of success.

    The police should grant a permit for peaceful gatherings if the organisers follow some guidelines.
    http://malaysiawatch3.blogspot.com/2007/11/bersih-rallythe-aftermath.html

    Maybe Astro and other Tv stations should be asked to ban marches that are held in other parts of the world?

  16. #16 by lakshy on Friday, 23 November 2007 - 1:02 pm

    I hope DYMM SPB YDP Agung sends in the RMR to protect the 10,000 Malaysian Citizens who are peacefully gathering to submit the petition to the Britich High Commisioner to pass to the Queen.

    It is obvious that this government and its stooges the police are not bothered to protect the rakyat. They only want to show their might.

    God bless all who participate in this Peaceful Protest.

  17. #17 by smeagroo on Friday, 23 November 2007 - 1:03 pm

    ANd i wonder how fast was the permit gvn to KJ and his monekys when they danced in front of the US Embassy and during the protest on the Myanmar crackdown? Obvisouly the JUnta demo was held in less than 2 weeks and that was the time frame gvn by these baboons to any org that ask for a permit.

  18. #18 by pkrisnin on Friday, 23 November 2007 - 1:27 pm

    Well the lawyer for the group says he has the permit, knowing the Polis they most likely just gave it to them without knowing it 
    What the Hindraf is concern off now is Samy Vellu sending some of his men to cause trouble and starting a riot. Well that’s just the word among the Indians.

  19. #19 by k1980 on Friday, 23 November 2007 - 1:32 pm

    Pak Dur, where to put your water face now?
    http://tonypua.blogspot.com/2007/11/not-running-fast-enough.html
    Back in 1966, 10 years after achieving independence, we were regarded as a wealthy country. In fact, our GDP per capita was nearly 3 times that of South Korea’s at US$350 versus US$130…However, shortly within 24 years, South Korea’s economy caught up and match ours at US$1900 per capita in 1990….South Korea’s GDP per capita at US$16,000 is now more than triple that of an average Malaysian at US$5,000.

  20. #20 by eagleye on Friday, 23 November 2007 - 1:41 pm

    Why Samy Vellu want to do that? He scared Hindraf will register as party and take over MIC if they succeed? Cummon Samy, don’t you see what they see? Money ain’t everything… The satisfaction!!! They ask their rights according what written in the declaration of independance as they claimed. Let them, feedback is later… You satisfy by killing your own race which supported you up to this stage? Or you take this as a revenge to hit those against you? This country is not a fighting stage!!! Is made from people and nature to live, not to leave(migrate)… be fair as BN’s logo… though its side weighed, but still….. for a little bit which left… poor Indians… give them some air to breath…

  21. #21 by kjwen on Friday, 23 November 2007 - 1:50 pm

    Maybe UN should send Gambari to Malaysia. What difference between Malaysia and Myanmar?

  22. #22 by ENDANGERED HORNBILL on Friday, 23 November 2007 - 1:50 pm

    K1980 says:
    “South Korea’s GDP per capita at US$16,000 is now more than triple that of an average Malaysian at US$5,000.”

    What’s perhaps very revealing of “Bolehland” is the comparison of GDP per head in Purchasing Power Parity (USA=100).
    Highest Purchasing Power:

    1. Luxembourg 176.3
    4. USA 100
    15. Hong Kong/UK 77.7
    24. Singapore 70.8
    41. S. Korea 51.7
    48. Brunei 47.1
    69. South Africa 28.2
    70. Chile 27.4
    (Source: The Economist, “Pocket World in Figures, 2007)

    Where is Malaysia? Not in the top 70 countries in the world!
    Well, at least Malaysia can still afford to offer a citizen a taxi ride to space! A top priority for BN propaganda that malaysia has entered into the space age in a ‘significant’ way! As a taxi passenger??

  23. #23 by ENDANGERED HORNBILL on Friday, 23 November 2007 - 1:51 pm

    “Hindraf rally – police stop over-reacting, dismantle roadblocks and issue permit”

    Remember, Malaysia is a Police State in truth and in deed!

  24. #24 by limkamput on Friday, 23 November 2007 - 1:58 pm

    I think this is the time for us to spare some thought for P. Uthayakumar, legal advisor of Hindraf (Hindu Rights Action Force), who was detained under the Sedition Act on Friday morning. How many of us is willing and able to do what he is doing? Is there anyway we can help at least financially for the cause.

  25. #25 by tc on Friday, 23 November 2007 - 2:01 pm

    Is the Police getting paranoid or what?Starting roadblocks 4 days before the Hindraf rally and causing traffic jams all over the city.Sending thousands of policemen to man these roadblocks instead of putting them to better use in catching criminals.Better still can blame these jams on the organisers of such assemblies.How do they conduct these roadblocks I wonder?Stop all the Indians and/or those wearing orange shirts from entering the city?
    Our neighbours are watching and laughing at us and are asking themselves ‘what is happening to Malaysia?’

  26. #26 by limkamput on Friday, 23 November 2007 - 2:11 pm

    Is the government working toward an emergency so as to hold back the impending general election? It is a very simple strategy – causing inconvenience and fear – and if the situation gets worse, declare emergency and suspense the election. There are simply too many bad examples around us (Pakistan, Mynmar) for Malaysia to follow.

  27. #27 by AsIseeit on Friday, 23 November 2007 - 2:11 pm

    Let the people to protest quietly to the British govt. It is a way to defuse the pent-up anger that many Indians are feeling about being marginalised and disadvantaged. If the police does not handle this situation well, I can forsee that even more trouble lies ahead. When a people feel marginalised long enough, they will vent their anger in ways that are not healthy for the country. Putting their leaders in jail might not solve much, as there will be always another person willing to play the hero/leader.

    Of course, those who represent the Indian interest in the govt are really worried as it might upset their position. What will they do? One likely option is to see this rally fail. Cause the crowd in the rally to become unruly? Pay off key leaders? Get the leaders to call off this rally? … ???

    More importantly, the govt if they are really concerned, they should take positive, concrete and tangible steps to alleviate the poverty of the Indians. Otherwise, it may be another time bomb waiting to explode. I just hope and pray that this will not happen.

  28. #28 by lakshy on Friday, 23 November 2007 - 2:23 pm

    Pak Lah, as Home Minister, show some brains and guts and allow the rally to proceed peacefully! Use your powers to protect the Rakyat. Let them submit their petition, and leave peacefully. You can end up looking good to the people if you do this.

    Anyway, they are submitting their petition to Britain. It’s not to the Agung this time! Wake up man! What can Britain do about it anyway? We are a former colony, and they have no rights to interfere with how you run the country and drive it down the sewage pipes. So let the Indians peacefully submit their petition and leave. Heck you may even get some votes if you turun padang and walk with them!

  29. #29 by Shantini.R on Friday, 23 November 2007 - 2:30 pm

    Am touched by Mr. Lim Kit Siang’s concern on HINDRAF’S peace rally. I wish all the Opposition leader’s from Pas/DAP/PKR to name few, also join in hand for this rally. Don’t you want the Indian Rakyat to vote for you for the next election? I viewed the Malaysiakini video “Fracas of the Temple”, and an indian women voiced out that she is not going to vote for BN. Don’t you want her vote for the next GE?

  30. #30 by optimuz on Friday, 23 November 2007 - 4:12 pm

    its strange that this rally seems to have ruffled a heck of a lot of people ‘up there’. I always thought that the Indians were insignificant..hmm..winds of change?

  31. #31 by optimuz on Friday, 23 November 2007 - 4:19 pm

    sorry, I should have said that ‘ the perception is that the Indians were insiginificant’….

  32. #32 by lakalaka69 on Friday, 23 November 2007 - 4:24 pm

    Pheew!!!… They have a court order restraining all HINDRAF supporters from gathering at the British High Commision.

  33. #33 by sheriff singh on Friday, 23 November 2007 - 5:26 pm

    A court restraining order??? In addition to all the roadblocks???

    Boy, the gomen is REALLY rattled. Did I hear people chanting “Gandhi, Gandhi, Gandhi?”

  34. #34 by LittleBird on Friday, 23 November 2007 - 7:07 pm

    Why they just can’t call and interview them under seditous act. They can do it for Raja Petra. Even people accused of corrupting judiciary been invited and interviewed (for almost ten years).

    Why the exception?

  35. #35 by tzarina on Friday, 23 November 2007 - 7:23 pm

    aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggghhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!

    Just felt like screaming. This is how Indians feel when their rights are taken away by MIC, UMNO and the Malay-Muslim fanatics in Malaysia.

  36. #36 by sheriff singh on Friday, 23 November 2007 - 8:12 pm

    People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

    (V For Vendetta – Alan Moore)

  37. #37 by sheriff singh on Friday, 23 November 2007 - 8:26 pm

    (DAP + PKR + HINDRAF) + PAS = ???? Hmmmmmmm. Just wondering.

  38. #38 by smeagroo on Friday, 23 November 2007 - 9:31 pm

    Hey can we like apply for permits and give those goons some work to do come Christmas and New YEar celebration? Afterall, I am thinking of having a gathering in my home or maybe do a picnic or some sort like that. We need a permit right?

    IF every gathering like this apply for one permit, we can ensure that our tax money is being put to good use.

  39. #39 by AhPek on Friday, 23 November 2007 - 10:07 pm

    Samy Valu has always boasted about his ability in delivering the indian votes and it’s true that the indians are the staunchest and most dependable supporter of the BN even more so than the malays or chinese (in terms of percentages).
    Now suddenly this HINDRAF thing comes along with such an appeal in championing the downtrodden i can see Samy is shaking with fear and worry that his supporters would be now looking for this NEW MESSIAH and leaving him in droves.
    In one stroke of a genius this idea of suing the British Government for making them 2nd class citizen in the Malaysian constitution after exploiting them for 150 years as indentured labour is simply brilliant.I never for one moment think that this suit is about compensation as some people here seems to think.Suing the British Government is a way of bringing the plight of marginalised Indians in today’s malaysia to the attention of the world thro the British Court and suing her for 4 trillion pounds is to tell the world emphatically that this marginalisation is unbelievably oppressive and inhuman by the present government of the day!
    And we, the other non malay citizens of Malaysia ought to fully support such a move.The government has never heeded your grouses and in fact it has brushed aside your complaints everytime.Perhaps the learned judge in Britain in his absolute wisdom will reject Hindraf’s case stating that at that time of granting independence to Malaya Britain did not intend the special position of the Malays to be turned into special privilege and in fact at that time although the Reid Commission did not put it down it was a gentleman’s understanding that this special position of the Malays should be reviewed in 15 years time (!972).This would highlight to the world the plight not only of the indians and also all non Malays. In fact the orang asli is the worst (not even bumiputra status) and this is truly their land and not the Malays!

  40. #40 by AhPek on Friday, 23 November 2007 - 10:11 pm

    Correction-“Perhaps the learned judge in Britain in his infinite wisdom ……………………………………………….”.

  41. #41 by sheriff singh on Friday, 23 November 2007 - 10:19 pm

    “A spokeswoman for the British High Commission, who declined to be identified citing protocol, said it would be ‘inappropriate’ for the diplomatic office to comment on the lawsuit.

    ‘We are aware of a planned presentation of a petition. We will receive the petition,’ she said, adding that any security concerns are for the authorities to handle.”

    The Straits Times

    So if the British High Commission has agreed to accept the petition, why then prevent Hindraf from giving it to them? Thats all they want so whats the issue? It will be over very quickly and everybody then goes home.

  42. #42 by straight talk on Friday, 23 November 2007 - 11:59 pm

    Look the truth of the matter is that the Government does not want HINDRAF to succeed because the BN govt has taken away the equation of the Indians in Malaysia. The Indians don’t matter. The recent request for an extention for the temple committee to move the images from the site was refused. I believe Samy Vellu would have requested PM to intervene. Giving our PM some credit I believe the PM wld have requested Khir broom Toyol to allow a reprieve since Divali was 8 days away. However that broom buger did not even listen to PM and went ahead to destroy the temple. The government does not care for the non malays although we are born in Malaysia. They rather give citizenship to the Indons and othe Muslims and make them first class citizens of the country. Pah Lah you can get the Police to arrest the leaders of Hindraf…but note you and your policies are to be blamed for this situation….

  43. #43 by EARNEST on Saturday, 24 November 2007 - 12:02 am

    The Government’s sense of insecurity engendered by widespread criticisms of its indecision, incompetency, nonchalance, arrogance, non-transparency, etc, etc had probably triggered its overreaction in the indefensible manhandling of Bersih demonstrators on 10.11.2007, sparking further criticisms by independent international media. Damage to Mr. Clean’s image and to an exorbitantly engineered image of an elevated national civilization (Angkasakan Tamaddun Bangsa) is considerable.

    Allowing citizens’ exercise of their rights in participating in a peaceful unarmed gathering by Hindraf on 25.11.2007, guaranteed by the Federal constitution and the Universal Declaration of Human rights, court orders notwithstanding, may contribute positively to the Government’s effort at damage control. After all, the British Embassy is not afraid and is prepared to receive Hindraf’s petition on its off day, 25.11.2007 being a Sunday.

    Repeating the manhandling of Bersih demonstrators may be analogous to JUMPING FROM THE FRYING PAN INTO THE FIRE as far as people’s negative perception of Government’s responses — or are they merely reactions ? — to myriad issues is concerned.

    Police manpower involved in the horrendous omnipresent and superfluous roadblocks may be put to better use in seriously attempting to reduce rising crime rate in the country. They have clearly overreacted and misplaced their priorities.

  44. #44 by raven77 on Saturday, 24 November 2007 - 12:10 am

    Every protest frustrated by the police in Malaysia….is another nail in the coffin for UMNO …and the MIC

  45. #45 by greenacre on Saturday, 24 November 2007 - 12:13 am

    Much earlier when the police rejected the permit for the gathering , they mentioned that the application for the gathering was not from an organization, so if this is true then against whom did they get the restraining order from the magistrate? No one can restrain an unnamed/non existent party. Perhaps this is possible in bolehland. Who would the magistrate charge for contempt? /

  46. #46 by tzarina on Saturday, 24 November 2007 - 12:40 am

    LKS,
    Will DAP/Keadilan attend as observers (at least)?

    If we are not to vote BN, who are we to vote? Give us some credible alternatives. Make the grassroot Indians trust that DAP also have their interests at heart. Go into the estates, show videos of Raimah, Sharmila, Moorthy, Revathi etc on how as non-Muslims, we are second class to Muslims, and how religious extremism is prevalent in the government. Show what has been done to Maika shares. Tell them about the decline of Indian professionals in the government. Show them how lands for low cost homes costing millions can be bought for RM180k by greedy MPs. Paint the picture clear.

    If DAP needs donations for this purpose, there are lots of Indians who can afford it will donate. Simply tell us how to do it.

  47. #47 by eagleye on Saturday, 24 November 2007 - 1:32 am

    Now they arreted three Hindraf heads!!! Two were bailed and one(Uthayakumar) in jail…Its getting serious. The Magistrates Court being a subordinate Court has no jurisdiction to issue this Order as it involves a Constitutional matter and a matter concerning Fundamental liberties under Article 10 of the Federal Constitution (Right to assemble peacefully without arms) Wow… Its sarcastic!!! If they so worried of that petition, then it must be something reasonable in it which may cause Britain involve in Malaysia again… So the government cheated all the non malays so far??? Oh man… Police in road blocks are checking indian’s handphone messages… They ask suspicous groups to return back… What will happen on 25 Nov 2007… Because of this over reacting, the Indians MUST submit the petition!!! Let pray it!!! and one more thing. ISA is something to against human rights, we are civilians or ‘lembu diikat tali di hidung?’

  48. #48 by eagleye on Saturday, 24 November 2007 - 1:42 am

    Sorry, its waythamoorthy which remain in custody, not Uthayakumar as I said.

  49. #49 by eagleye on Saturday, 24 November 2007 - 1:43 am

    PETALING JAYA (Nov 23, 2007): Police have arrested three key officials of the Hindu Rights Action Force (Hindraf) that is planning to go ahead with a mass rally on Sunday outside the British High Commission in Jalan Ampang although police had rejected their application to do so.

    They are expected to be charged under the Sedition Act later today.

    The three men are:

    > Hindraf adviser, lawyer P. Uthayakumar, who was picked up at his office in Bangsar at about 10.30am

    > Hindraf chairman, lawyer P. Waythamoorthy (Uthayakumar’s brother), who was arrested at the Shah Alam toll plaza about 3pm

    > V. Ganapathy Rao, who was arrested when he went to the Selangor police headquarters to see Uthayakumar about 2.45pm

    Lawyer N. Surendran went to Selangor IPK in Shah Alam about 2.45pm when Uthayakumar was taken there by a police team. He was accompanied by Ganapathy Rao and Parti Keadilan Rakyat supreme council member S. Manickavasagam.

    However, when Surendran came out 20 minutes later, he told reporters that Ganapathy Rao had been arrested as well.

    He said he was informed by a police officer with the rank of Assistant Commissioner that the three men would be charged in Klang later today.

    Outside the IPK grounds, about 200 people had gathered and when the police car carrying Uthayakumar drove past the gate, shouts rang out and some rapped on the car window. Several empty mineral water bottles were also thrown at the car.

    On Monday, a police team had raided Uthayakumar’s law office with a warrant, in search of a publication that he had authored. They found nothing there.

    Simultaneously, another team searched Waythamoorthy’s office in Seremban, Negri Sembilan, where some 2,500 booklets, pertaining to a suit that Hindraf had taken against the British government, were seized.

    Hindraf planned Sunday’s gathering to hand a memorandum addressed to the Queen of England to support a class-action suit against Her Majesty’s government for bringing Indians to Malaysia as indentured labourers and exploiting them for 150 years. It is seeking RM27.7 trillion in compensation. According to Manickavasagam, the rally will go on despite the arrests.

    Yesterday, for the second day running, police security checks at a number of roads into Kuala Lumpur caused traffic congestion.

    Earlier today, lawyer M. Manoharan told theSun police had served him, Uthayakumar and several other Hindraf officials a restraining order to stop them from participating in the rally.

    Police got the order from the Kuala Lumpur magistrate’s court, which also restrains all Hindraf supporters from participating in the gathering, which police said could disrupt public order.

    picked from: http://www.malaysianbar.org.my/content/view/12487/2/

  50. #50 by lakshy on Saturday, 24 November 2007 - 1:59 am

    Why use the sedition act to arrest them? What is the government scared of? I think HINDRAF has just won a major hurdle by BN’s over-reaction.

    Let the Indian’s march as in the Indian Salt March. Non-violent protest. And let the news channels of the world broadcast the atrocities of the BN govt. Perhaps after Pakistan, Malaysia will be the next to get booted out of the Commonwealth!

    DYMM SPB YDP Agung, please send your troops to protect your loyal rakyat from these atrocities planned by the BN. They are all your subjects, and you have a duty to protect them! With great position and power comes Great responsibility. You have to rise to this challenge!

  51. #51 by undergrad2 on Saturday, 24 November 2007 - 2:53 am

    “Hindraf planned Sunday’s gathering to hand a memorandum addressed to the Queen of England to support a class-action suit against Her Majesty’s government for bringing Indians to Malaysia as indentured labourers and exploiting them for 150 years. It is seeking RM27.7 trillion in compensation..”

    This reminds me of another class action law suit brought by African-Americans against corporate America amidst claims that the defendant companies had profited from slavery – a law suit which was later dismissed.

    And now this! It is another case of political grandstanding.

  52. #52 by lakshy on Saturday, 24 November 2007 - 3:01 am

    Come on guys, lets all lend support to this rally. lets all walk hand in hand to show BN that we stand in solidarity with the Indians. Let this be the continued march to democratization of Malaysia. Lets have a million people marching in KL and then we see what the police and authorities do!

    DYMM SPB YDP Agung…………these are your people! We are your rakyat! Your role is to protect us!

  53. #53 by somaris on Saturday, 24 November 2007 - 5:18 am

    To ALL INDIAN.
    THIS IS THE TIME FOR U ALL PEOPLE TO COME OUT ALL THE WAY TO FIGHT FOR UR RIGHT.GO TELL ALL INDIAN WHAT HAD HAPPEN ALL THIS YEARS.INDIAN ARE POOR ,TEMPLE BEEN DESTROY BY THE MONKEY.VOTE FOR DAP.LONG LIVE LIM KIT SIANG.WE LOVE YOU.THE TIME AS COME LET ALL DO SOMETHING FOR ALL MALAYSIA.HIDUP MALAYSIAN. WE ARE ONE MALAYSIAN.

    Throw Out MIC.PPP.
    We Need NEW HINDRAF FOR ALL INDIAN

  54. #54 by Godamn Singh on Saturday, 24 November 2007 - 7:04 am

    One little Indian, two little Indian….

  55. #55 by Godamn Singh on Saturday, 24 November 2007 - 7:36 am

    One little, two little, three little Indians
    Four little, five little, six little Indians
    Seven little, eight little, nine little Indians
    Ten little Indian boys.

    Ten little, nine little, eight little Indians
    Seven little, six little, five little Indians
    Four little, three little, two little Indians
    One little Indian boy.

  56. #56 by Godfather on Saturday, 24 November 2007 - 9:14 am

    Crude, intimidatory tactics by the police who are subservient to UMNO. You can’t win in a court of law as the judges are also subservient to UMNO. Conclusion ? No chance of any redress against wrongdoings against the rakyat.

    I really pity the Indian community. Semi Value took all the crumbs, and now the community can’t even go for a rally for their rights.

    CEMERLANG, GEMILANG, TEMBERANG !

  57. #57 by mwt on Saturday, 24 November 2007 - 10:22 am

    For the latest Hindraf Saga & Details on
    MORE PICS – 3 Hindraf Leaders Arrested & Released (but 1 refused Bail as protest, Hundreds Supporters at Court; 20 NGOs & MIC Say Don’t Attend:
    Go H E R E

    Apparently they were arrested over speeches in Tamil made at a forum in Batang Berjuntai, Selangor based on police investigations pertaining to reports lodged against them. They were charged under Section 4 (1B) of the Sedition Act in the Klang sessions Court.
    But they were released on bail in no time as the charge sheet was not in order to what the DPP was saying. N Surendran representing the three pointed out that the charge sheet stated that only one word was seditious whereas the DPP said everything in the speeches were seditious. The police bungled in this case and the Magistrate ordered the charges be amended. Hearing resumes Monday

  58. #58 by HJ Angus on Saturday, 24 November 2007 - 10:35 am

    The use of force against a peaceful protest is not going to win the hearts and minds of the people.

    It seems the police force is being stretched to its limits when citizens want to lodge a complaint.

    One wonders how we will cope if desperate folks resort to secret and more violent activities? After all we know that our border security is just a sieve with many unrecorded visitors.

    Now if we allow a peaceful protest away from the city centers, let’s say limit to one licenced protest per month, we should be able to let people let off steam in a healthy manner.

  59. #59 by Jonny on Saturday, 24 November 2007 - 11:36 am

    This is a war by the police (hands and legs of govt). The police are not exactly looking after the rakyat’s interest.

    They are looking after their Masters’ interest. I’m quite sad that the government we elected is no longer working after our interest. And we’ve ended up enslaved.

    The road blocks are PSYCHOLOGICAL WARFARE upon us, the people. To make us shrink our [email protected] – especially the Chinese community – to go back to their safe cocoon and vote back the party into power. And ever again, the Chinese will complain non-stop for the next 5 years.

    I rest my case.

  60. #60 by WFH on Saturday, 24 November 2007 - 12:47 pm

    Had the police permit been made a commodity and issued into the hands of the likes of KJ, I’m sure this HINDRAF rally (or any rally or protest for that matter) will be allowed, as long as the police permit is “bought” from the KJ-types, ala AP.

  61. #61 by tc on Saturday, 24 November 2007 - 12:51 pm

    What Jonny said was right.At the roadblocks the policemen were chatting away.They did not even looked into the occupants in their vehicles nor did they open their booths for checking for weapons.(Contradicting to what the police chief said)
    All they did was to put up roadsigns on one lane and constricting the road and thus causing the jams.I am sure the policemen on duty are frustrated to follow their superiors’ orders and some of them will feel sorry for the entire mess they have caused.
    When passing these roadblocks just horn continuously to vent your frustrations and to tell them that we,the rakyat are not happy at all with their bullying tactics.

  62. #62 by bennylohstocks on Saturday, 24 November 2007 - 2:10 pm

  63. #63 by AnakTiriMalaysia on Saturday, 24 November 2007 - 2:20 pm

    To show they are impartial, and and to proof that ‘no one is above the law ‘ in this country,

    The Inspector-General of Police Tan Sri Musa Hassan

    SHOULD intrust his men to arrest KHAIRY JAMALUDDIN, the son-in-law of Prime Minister, AAB

    for:

    leading an illegal assembly in July last year. I that event,
    Khairy Jamaluddin, who is a former diplomat’s son, stormed the convention centre that hosted the Asean Regional Forum (ARF), demanding United States Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to get out of Malaysia because “you have done nothing to stop the genocide and the murder of Palestinians and Lebanese”

    This is the excerpt taken from : http://www.niknazmi.com/wordpress/?p=618

    An estimated 5000 people protested nosily against the US led Israeli policy in West Asia and tried to barge in into the venue for the Asian Regional Forum (ARF) at the Kuala Lumpur Convention centre. The group was led by Deputy UMNO Chief Khairy Jumalludin, the son-in-law of the Prime Minister Datuk Seri Abdullah.

    Has Nazri forgotten that UMNO was founded by demonstrations against the Malayan Union? More importantly has Khairy Jamaluddin forgotten UMNO Youths protest against Condoleeza Rice last year – one which Khairy tried to break through the barricade to hand in a memorandum to Condi? The police evicted him, but without any tear gas or water canons. No one tried to storm any barricade on Saturday, but we were given a rougher treatment. Furthermore then Khairy said:
    “From the people of Malaysia, we do not welcome you here. You may be invited by the Government, but we do not
    http://www.niknazmi.com/wordpress/?p=618

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkRag7hlW_I&feature=related

    So why no action been taken against him for holding an illegal assembly?

    Is it because :

    1. He is UMNO Youth’s deputy chief? = he is above the law

    2. He is son-in-law of PM = law not applicable to him

    3.He is ‘friend’ of the government…. so arm of law could not reach him….

    so, how you describe ‘transparency’ and impartiality in Malaysia?

  64. #64 by sec on Saturday, 24 November 2007 - 3:12 pm

    Besides the claim of money from British;HINDDRAF’s rally has recalled a very meaningful history in Malaysia.
    Ask your grandfather; who built the road; the Railwayline; who planted the rubber trees and oil palm that belongs to Sime Darby; Dunlop Estate etc. ; now belong to Synergy Berhad.
    Now who claim the ” Ketunan Tanah”; actually it belongs to All races in Malaysia.
    Hidup Malaysia.

  65. #65 by limkamput on Saturday, 24 November 2007 - 5:03 pm

    And now this! It is another case of political grandstanding. undergrad2

    I disagree with you. I think the Indian community in this country has every right to bring their attention to the government as well as the international community. It is an indictment of almost four decades of NEP. We should be supportive of them because today it is Indians but tomorrow it would be other races in the country. I am deeply sadden why the DAP has not been highlighting their cause as vigorously as it should be.

  66. #66 by Selwin Pandian on Saturday, 24 November 2007 - 5:48 pm

    LEND A HAND GUYZ….FOR I THINK AFTER 50 YEARS, ONLY NOW WE ARE LEARNING TO WALK. -INDIAN REFORMASI

  67. #67 by limkamput on Saturday, 24 November 2007 - 6:16 pm

    Ah Pek and tzarina, well said. I may be wrong, i think DAP and PKR are not that supportive HINDRAF. Or may be it is a strategy to let the Indians learn their lesson – after all the Indians have been supporting BN election after election as boosted by Semi Value.

    After Indians, I think the government will next take on the Singh and I hope the government will start with that Godamn Singh @ Ass Singh.

  68. #68 by DarkHorse on Saturday, 24 November 2007 - 7:19 pm

    “….start with that Godamn Singh @ Ass Singh.” lamkamput

    Calling all Singhs “asses” is this lamkamput’s aka ‘lam-par’ idea of supporting the non-Chinese and non-Malay community.

    Now this ‘genius’ is pointing at the DAP for being not much more than a Chinese party. Is it wrong if the majority of its supporters today are Chinese??

    Stop abusing other commentators for having a different opinion than yours.

  69. #69 by undergrad2 on Saturday, 24 November 2007 - 9:18 pm

    Just ignore this limkaput, DarkHorse.

    This is what I said earlier (scroll up)

    “This reminds me of another class action law suit brought by African-Americans against corporate America amidst claims that the defendant companies had profited from slavery – a law suit which was later dismissed.”

    This is his reply:

    “I disagree with you. I think the Indian community in this country has every right to bring their attention to the government as well as the international community.” limkaput

    I was referring to the law suit. But, of course, like you say the “genius” in the guy sees it his way, sees things that are not there and hear things said that were not said (“schizophrenic” as some would say) so he could badger other readers into submitting to his opinion.

    We should leave alone to his devices.

  70. #70 by undergrad2 on Saturday, 24 November 2007 - 9:23 pm

    Oh, one more thing!

    This limkaput also said “i think DAP and PKR are not that supportive of HINDRAF..”

    I thought I saw Kit being carried on the shoulders of some of the demonstrators when he arrived. He was an instant celebrity! And yet limkaput says the DAP is “not supportive”.

  71. #71 by eagleye on Sunday, 25 November 2007 - 2:33 am

    On 24th Nov 07, THE STAR newspaper, page N8, first column, 11th and 12th paragraph :
    It stated that:

    “” In Putrjaya, Umno youth chief Datuk Seri Hishamuddin Tun Hussein said “the silent majority” should make itself heard and stand up to people with their own agenda.
    He said racial and religous sentiments made for a dangerous cocktail that could spell disaster. He also cautioned Umno youth members to remain calm.””

    How its going to be racism? Everything is calm. Right now Malays, Chinese and Indians are stil working together as normal… Why Umno youth have to be cautioned to REMAIN calm? What they mean?

    Pleaselah!!! The one making this issue an havoc is governments. Police Blocks, planned arrests, Cancelling permits and so on… Yet there is stil no chaos of racism. It shows we are united. BN, please don’t behave like gangsters. Don’t provoke racism by your unnecessary statements.. I’m not anti-gov but more to people’s voice… people made you guys, not you make people!!! Let the peaceful gathering go on… let it happen without racism, support peaceful Malaysia.

  72. #72 by eagleye on Sunday, 25 November 2007 - 2:44 am

    http://www.suarakeadilan.com

    Saya menyokong hak HINDRAF untuk berhimpun secara aman dan ingin mengulangi rayuan saya kepada Polis DiRaja Malaysia untuk memberikan permit agar perhimpunan mereka dapat berlangsung pada 25 November 2007.

    Hak untuk berhimpun secara aman telah termaktub di dalam Perlembagaan Malaysia dan Perhimpunan Aman Bersih telah membuktikan bahawa rakyat Malaysia dapat bertindak secara bertanggungjawab sesuai dengan amalan masyarakat madani.

    Tetapi saya saya menyeru kepada HINDRAF agar mereka mengambil pendekatan yang lebih sederhana dan bertanggungjawab di dalam menyuarakan ketidakpuashatian mereka, khususnya di dalam soal Perlembagaan, khususnya Perkara 153.

    HINDRAF sepatutnya menumpukan perhatian mereka kepada kerajaan BN yang bertanggungjawab di atas salahguna kuasa yang telah menindas kaum India yang miskin, dan juga pada masa yang sama gagal menyelesaikan masalah semua rakyat Malaysia tanpa mengira kaum, warna kulit ataupun agama.

    Gerakan HINDRAF menggambarkan masalah asas yang terus menular di negara kita dan membakar api perkauman yang hanya mengeruhkan lagi ketegangan kaum dan permusuhan sesame rakyat Malaysia..

    Rakyat Malaysia terus komited untuk melaksanakan pembaharuan di negara ini mesti sedar bahawa pembangkang yang berwibawa adalah penting untuk Malaysia dan masanya telah tiba untuk menyokong pembangkang.

    Parti-parti yang menyokong Reformasi mesti bekerjasama secara efektif, dan menekankan isu-isu bersama, terus bekerjsama dan mengelakkan menyalahkan kaum lain untuk masalah mereka.

    Apabila kita berpecah, suara kita lemah. Tetapi bersatu, kita boleh hidup secara rukun dan aman damai di negara yang boleh kita banggakan bersama.

    ANWAR IBRAHIM

  73. #73 by eagleye on Sunday, 25 November 2007 - 2:47 am

    http://www.suarakeadilan.com

    Kerajaan Main Sentimen Perkauman Dalam Isu Hindraf: AMK

    Kuala Lumpur, 24 November – Naib Ketua Angkatan Muda Keadilan Malaysia (AMK), Khairul Anuar Ahmad Zainuddin hari ini mendesak pihak Polis Diraja Malaysia (PDRM) untuk meluluskan permit ke atas perhimpunan yang bakal dianjurkan oleh Hindraf Ahad ini.

    Dalam satu kenyataan yang diperoleh oleh SuaraKeadilan.com, Khairul berkata sebagaimana perhimpunan yang dianjurkan Bersih pada 10 November lepas, perhimpunan Hindraf ini adalalah merupakan satu manifestasi hak rakyat untuk berhimpun dan menyatakan pendapat sebagaimana yang dijamin Artikel 10 Perlembagaan Persekutuan.

    “Tindakan Timbalan Perdana Menteri yang mengecam Hindraf dengan cemuhan berunsur perkauman adalah sesuatu yang amat biadap, dalam keadaan masalah kerencaman masyarakat India di Malaysia pada masa kini bukan satu keadaan yang boleh dimanipulasi dengan sentimen perkauman.

    “Sebaliknya ia berbalik kepada konsep keadilan sosial dan pengagihan ekonomi yang tidak seimbang yang diamalkan oleh kerajaan Barisan Nasional’” ujar beliau mengulas respon Datuk Seri Najib Tun Razak beberapa hari lepas mengenai isu Hindraf ini.

    Dalam usaha mengekang perhimpunan ini, pihak polis telah menahan 3 peguam yang merupakan tulang belakang kepada Hindraf iaitu P Uthayakumar, P Waythamoorthy dan V Ganapathy Rao semalam dan disabitkan kesalahan di bawah Akta Hasutan.

    Menurut Khairul, penahanan oleh PDRM adalah merupakan satu tindakan yang amat tidak profesional, di saat mereka bangkit mempertahankan hak masyarakat India.

    “Tuduhan yang disabitkan ke atas mereka di bawah Akta Hasutan juga adalah satu tindakan yang jelas cuba mengekang rakyat untuk mendapatkan akses maklumat.”

    Beliau berpendapat sewajarnya Kerajaan Barisan Nasional memberikan penumpuan untuk memperbetulkan keadaan kestabilan masyarakat Malaysia, bukan mengekang rakyat untuk berhimpun dan melaksanakan hak demokratik mereka.

    “Isunya bukan masalah kaum India semata-mata, isunya adalah penindasan berterusan ke atas rakyat Malaysia tanpa mengira agama dan bangsa. Dan terbukti jelas, selepas 50 tahun merdeka, BN meneruskan tradisi gagal membela rakyat.”

  74. #74 by eagleye on Sunday, 25 November 2007 - 3:07 am

    I didn’t mean to ‘ampu’ Keadilan but his statements is rational…

  75. #75 by limkamput on Sunday, 25 November 2007 - 6:34 am

    DarkAssHorse,
    LOOK, if you can’t be impartial, just keep your big mouth shut. Why don’t you read what that ass Singh talked about me for reasons best known to him. All these show that you people can’t be objective. I have no problem supporting Undergrad2 if once a while he gave constructive ideas to the discourse. But for you and Ass Singh it is just one liner. No standard, to say the least.

  76. #76 by limkamput on Sunday, 25 November 2007 - 6:48 am

    “I was referring to the law suit. But, of course, like you say the “genius” in the guy sees it his way, sees things that are not there and hear things” Undergrad2,

    Undergrad2,
    Surely you are smart enough to know that the law suit has almost no possibility of success and the objective is not really to seek compensation. It is a mean to solicit support and galvanise international attention. You were using term like “political grandstanding” when referring to the law suit, so what does that mean? I think you just want to show that there was such a law suit in America and it was dismissed by the court. YOU are not the only one who knows that, ok.

  77. #77 by limkamput on Sunday, 25 November 2007 - 6:55 am

    And yet limkaput says the DAP is “not supportive”. Undergrad2

    I am being gentle when I said DAP is not supportive. I want to ask you a fundamental question? Is our opposition getting too soft? Yes, we must all play by the rule. But is BN subscribing to the rule? Why it is so difficult for you to understand what I am saying other than you having a personal axe to grind. Don’t be like that Cambridge brat or Jeffrey who are famous for indulging in polemics. The world is not changed by this type of people. The change is brought by people like those in HINDRAF. I must say HINDRAF was able to accomplish in one week (in terms of galvanizing support) what the PKR and DAP would probably take one year.

  78. #78 by limkamput on Sunday, 25 November 2007 - 7:28 am

    “kepada HINDRAF agar mereka mengambil pendekatan yang lebih sederhana dan bertanggungjawab di dalam menyuarakan ketidakpuashatian mereka” Anwar Ibrahim

    Saya tidak nampak bagaimana HINDRAF dapat menggunakan cara yang lebih sederhana. Apa yang dimaksudkan “lebih sederhana” di sini. Merayu kepada UMNO and Melayu untuk bertindak secara lebih adil? Untuk makluman Sdr Anwar, kaum Indian telah lama merayu, tetapi yang ternampak ialah ketuanan dan keislaman yang berterusan. Sekiranaya tren ini berterusan, mungkin tidah lama lagi, kaum China pun akan menghadapi sesat yang sama. Saya bersetuju perkauman itu berlaku di mana tempat, tetapi Malaysia boleh dikatakan sebagai sebuah Negara yang paling racist and hypocritical.

  79. #79 by dawsheng on Sunday, 25 November 2007 - 7:41 am

    “The change is brought by people like those in HINDRAF.”

    But don’t forget that the change can be better and it can be worst. There are just too many underlying consequences in this issue. Now imagine that Chinese temple were the one being demolished, I can guarantee you there could have been more than just a street protest.

  80. #80 by limkamput on Sunday, 25 November 2007 - 7:42 am

    In Putrjaya, Umno youth chief Datuk Seri Hishamuddin Tun Hussein said “the silent majority” should make itself heard and stand up to people with their own agenda. He said racial and religous sentiments made for a dangerous cocktail that could spell disaster. He also cautioned Umno youth members to remain calm. Eagleye

    There are lots of ironies here. Didn’t the government try to stop the silent majority by blocking the whole city? Didn’t he portray his racism and bigotry more than anymore else? By cautioning UMNO youth members to remain calm, didn’t he try to tell the rest that UMNO youth is watching. You see, we are what we repeatedly do. Our character is not an act, it is a habit.

  81. #81 by limkamput on Sunday, 25 November 2007 - 7:44 am

    dawsheng, sorry i don’t quite understand you. so I can’t comment.

  82. #82 by dawsheng on Sunday, 25 November 2007 - 7:55 am

    You blame no one else but Samy Vellu and MIC, Prime Minister Abdullah Badawi and his government for predicaments of the Indian community.

  83. #83 by limkamput on Sunday, 25 November 2007 - 8:03 am

    But don’t forget that the change can be better and it can be worst. There are just too many underlying consequences in this issue. Now imagine that Chinese temple were the one being demolished, I can guarantee you there could have been more than just a street protest. dawsheng

    On second thought, may be I should respond to your comment.

    We are always thinking of the consequences because we want to hold on to the little we have. In the process we are actually trading short term expediency for long term misery. Let’s face it, are the non Malays’ position getting any better by keep thinking of the consequences of our action?
    With regard to your view on Chinese Temple being demolished, I think nothing will happen for now because the majority of the Chinese are still relatively comfortable (I mean economically). I think we should all see that the current Malaysian Indians’ reaction is more than demolishment of Hindu temples. It is their sense of deprivation and continued marginalisation. The Hindu temple is just the catalyst.

  84. #84 by dawsheng on Sunday, 25 November 2007 - 8:18 am

    It is the catalyst that hold the Indian community together and hopefully, it will be the catalyst that will bring about that changes the Indian community had long for, equal treatment. It is all about the demolition of Hindu temples, the catalyst and the symbol and the main reasons of their struggles.

  85. #85 by DiaperHead on Sunday, 25 November 2007 - 8:21 am

    ///With regard to your view on Chinese Temple being demolished, I think nothing will happen for now because the majority of the Chinese are still relatively comfortable (I mean economically)/// limkamput

    Strange!

    This is the traditional Malay point of view i.e. the Chinese are economically well off to really care and they can take more of the abuse by the Malay dominated government. And this coming from a Chinese??? Something is wrong with this picture. Somebody is masquerading and trolling.

  86. #86 by dawsheng on Sunday, 25 November 2007 - 8:28 am

    “Don’t be like that Cambridge brat or Jeffrey who are famous for indulging in polemics. The world is not changed by this type of people.”

    Seriously, I always thought it is all about indulging in polemics that make changes possible.

  87. #87 by dawsheng on Sunday, 25 November 2007 - 8:40 am

    “We are always thinking of the consequences because we want to hold on to the little we have. In the process we are actually trading short term expediency for long term misery. Let’s face it, are the non Malays’ position getting any better by keep thinking of the consequences of our action?”

    Your question is hypothetical and you have answer part of it, “we are actually trading short term expediency for long term misery.” The other part of the answer can be the complete opposite, if not extreme. It may lead to a full scale disaster but for now the majority interest is to balance the status quo.

  88. #88 by goldenscreen on Sunday, 25 November 2007 - 8:48 am

    Well, the Indians of Hindraf were really brave today. They were generally peaceful around the Jalan Ampang area. Around 5,000++ estimated to have been there hundreds others stuck at Batu Caves, KLCC, buses detained at Setapak and other police stations. I must give credit to them, they did well facing the FRU. The FRU has just succesfully broken the demo and are now arresting people.

    For the pics go to http://www.jpbdbkl.gov.my/index.cfm?method=Cam.Main_e&ch=CH01

    For previous pics go to http:[email protected]/tags/hindraf/

  89. #89 by dawsheng on Sunday, 25 November 2007 - 8:50 am

    “I think we should all see that the current Malaysian Indians’ reaction is more than demolishment of Hindu temples.”

    You are absolutely right, this is not just an “Indian” problem, this is a “Malaysian” problem. DAP and PKR cannot let Hindraf walk alone.

  90. #90 by Godamn Singh on Sunday, 25 November 2007 - 9:53 am

    ///Dawsheng, sorry I don’t quite understand you. So I can’t comment. /// lamkampuiiiet

    Dawsheng, this is his way of saying you don’t know how to write English. This is what he said earlier on another thread:

    “So far, none of you has been able to debate on issues raised….. most of you write poor English.”

    Just like when he is quoted as saying that the DAP is not supportive of the Indians, he claims later he is being “gentle”. Now he’s being “gentle” towards you. Ha..ha..ha!!

  91. #91 by Ms. Chindian on Sunday, 25 November 2007 - 12:45 pm

    Why this rally got bigger fuss than last time rally? Maybe all non-malays in malaysia should gather and rally for our rights. We are clearly being put below malays. It should not be happening.

  92. #92 by limkamput on Sunday, 25 November 2007 - 1:48 pm

    Usually Singh are quite smart, but this Godamn Singh is about the dumbest Singh I have ever met. I think this is enough. I will just write one sentence a day with you. You can only handle so much. Beyond that you will go berserk and laugh like a chimpanzee, ha.. ha.. ha….

  93. #93 by EARNEST on Sunday, 25 November 2007 - 2:50 pm

    Apparently, Godamn Singh, DarkHorse, Undergrad2, dawsheng are ganging up together against limkamput.

    I am not taking sides but let me hazard some guesses. Godamn Singh is a probably a juvenile below 10 years old, practicing blogging here. Do not be too hard on him. DarkHorse is probably his protective father.

    limkamput is probably a writer or journalist and quite a good one with independence of thought, and what he wrote mostly make sense, but he may be a bit cynical and trigger happy, offending a few with calling name, ass. He is capable of taking risk, and could can make a good leader, a revolutionary kind.

    dawsheng is quite well off and a peace lover and makes a good follower. However, I do not know what his “majority interest is to balance the status quo” mean? I thought you either maintain the status quo or you rock the boat. How do you balance something like status quo? How do you know that there are no smouldering embers which could burst into flames by a tiny spark? Are the silent majority complacent and resigned to fate or are they nursing grievances silently? We do not have polling or survey results, so we do not know. We can only guess.

    In the above context, perhaps limkamput probably meant “rhetoric” rather than “polemics”. He used the word “catalyst” as an analogy to a spark which could start a conflagration. It was misunderstood by dawsheng.

    By the way, who is the Cambridge brat and Jeffrey?

    BTW, I am an old man.

  94. #94 by dawsheng on Sunday, 25 November 2007 - 7:15 pm

    EARNEST, to maintain the status quo some balancing acts by the majority will be required to keep their interest in place, hence my definition of “to balance the status quo”. My sincere apology for using words I myself sometime could not understand.

    You ask: How do you know that there are no smouldering embers which could burst into flames by a tiny spark? Are the silent majority complacent and resigned to fate or are they nursing grievances silently?

    I just know, that smoldering embers which could burst into flames just caught fire this morning but definitely not because of a tiny spark. What happened and will happen from today onwards may just rock the boat and capsized.

    You are right about me being a peace lover and makes a good follower but I am not quite well off. :)

  95. #95 by sj on Sunday, 25 November 2007 - 8:24 pm

    tetapi Malaysia boleh dikatakan sebagai sebuah Negara yang paling racist and hypocritical

    By Limkamput

    ________________________________________________________

    Hell I SECOND TO THAT.

  96. #96 by sj on Sunday, 25 November 2007 - 8:27 pm

    Well too bad is all thanks to UMNO’s Ketuanan style that has cause a very large rift. In fact after the May 13 riot and you look at how things unfold, they did not quite solve the problem, they only force the hands of other people to accept the Ketuanan Melayu way, by enforcing the notion of “Special Rights”. Now tell me, what is so special about Malay, or Chinese or Indian? We all bleed red, we all eat, we all sleep and we are ALL HUMAN. What is so special? Everybody should be equal under the Constitution. Especially in terms of human rights.

  97. #97 by DarkHorse on Sunday, 25 November 2007 - 9:53 pm

    “By the way, who is the Cambridge brat and Jeffrey? BTW, I am an old man.” EARNEST

    The Cambridge “brat” and Jeffrey are respected contributors to this blog whose opinions about issues here are matured and intelligent. I believe I’m speaking for the majority of readers here – except for one who calls Jeffery “stupid” and does so every opportunity he gets.

    Jeffrey’s analytical powers are an asset to the blog and has won praise from Kit for his regular contributions. He has no axe to grind, no huge ego to nurse and no ulterior motive than merely to offer his opinion on issues raised by Kit – never rubbing another commentator the wrong way for his or her views. Readers can read what he writes or not read what he writes and form their own opinion about the issues.

    The Cambridge “brat” that this Limkamput repeatedly refers to is Lee Wang Yen, currently doing his PhD at the Department of History and Philosophy of Science, University of Cambridge – a student in metaphysics, philosophy of language, philosophical logic, philosophy of mind, and philosophical theology. His articles have been published in major academic journals since his undergraduate years. He presently lectures to undergraduates at Cambridge University, the University ranked second in the world today according to THES.

    Here are some comments by this Limkamput. You can judge for yourself the man who makes them.

    About Jeffrey and many other readers, the following statements by Limkamput have made it to the blog’s “quotable quotes”

    “I think the more you write, the more you show your stupidity. You are essentially a talk cock king”

    “Frankly, you swarm the blog with your inconsequential and irrelevant views.”

    “I think you have held sway with your half baked ideas for too long. You will be hearing from me more often from now on, whether you like it or not.”

    “…..most of you are victims of years of indoctrination and subtle inculcation. Whether sensible or otherwise, Jeffrey is famous complicating issues that are blatantly clear – to show his intellectual prowess perhaps. You may accuse me for being simplistic, but he is hollow sophistication.”

    About Lee Wang Yeng – who has done his country proud (many times over), a brilliant scholar at such a relatively young age, who has achieved so much against such heavy odds succeeding despite the policy of his own government. Here is what Limkamput has to say about him:

    “….your sophisticated mind is not sophisticated enough after all. It was not illegal, period. If the law is immoral and at the same time can be arbitrarily applied, why are you worried whether or not it is legal or illegal? This is what I meant by hollow sophistication and you are fast becoming one (that is, if you are not Jeffrey).” Limkamput

    Other readers would never mistake Lee for Jeffrey. But of course, Limkamput is unable to see the difference between the writing style because others are “stupid” and are “not capable of writing good English” like he says he can.

    EARNEST, I have restricted my comments to the minimum – but enough so you could form your own conclusion.

    Finally, Jeffrey, always the kind and polite commentator that he is, has only this to say in response despite all the cruel remarks made by Limkamput about him and all the personal attacks against his intelligence. When he wrote it was mostly in defense of other commentators, and Lee Wang Yen who has been literally run out of this blog by this Limkamput – perhaps never to return. Jeffrey said to Lee Wang Yen, agreeing with me that

    “This blog would be all the poorer without your contribution”

    As if that was not enough, the “brilliant” Limkamput went on to run down the University of Cambridge!

    It is most unfortunate because the DAP needs people like Lee Wang Yen to come share his experiences on this blog and provide inspiration to those who wish to follow in his footsteps.

    If Wang Yen is reading this, we readers here would like to see you return because you are an inspiration to all of us here! Yours is a story of a Malaysian Chinese who succeeded against all odds to eventually do his country proud – and I am not referring to your intellectual ability. You are a genius and geniuses are never made but are born.

    Let not the antics of one immature commentator who suffers from attention deficit syndrome bother you.

  98. #98 by ALtPJK on Sunday, 25 November 2007 - 11:02 pm

    That’s right DarkHorse.

    In time, if not already obvious, contributors and readers will see the gaping difference between those who only shout rhetorics and those who articulate their views reflective of their keen analyses and clarity of thought and are able to present their arguments so succintly.

  99. #99 by undergrad2 on Sunday, 25 November 2007 - 11:48 pm

    Yes, I notice that Jeffrey too has chosen to withhold his commentaries. Let’s hope he returns to contribute to this blog the way he has been doing over the years.

    As for our self-proclaimed ‘genius’ limkaput, I’m sure he has read the postings here declaring support for Lee Wang Yen and Jeffrey. He is not denying he made those remarks, is he? That would be fun to watch. Because like DarkHorse says “they have made to the blog’s ‘Quotable Quotes” for readers to read! So should we expect his response to the allegations made against him? I think not.

    Even a dog knows when to put that tail between its legs – and run!

  100. #100 by EARNEST on Monday, 26 November 2007 - 12:26 am

    dawsheng and DarkHorse, thank you for your replies.

    I am impressed with DarkHorse’s meticulous write-up on the Cambridge brat and Jeffrey. Kudos to a dark horse which could win races unexpectedly.

    For all his faults, Limkamput nevertheless has fighting spirits. Imagine, he could cause a Cambridge graduate to leave the scene. Mind boggling. Is he from Oxford or Harvard?

  101. #101 by Godamn Singh on Monday, 26 November 2007 - 1:01 am

    whaaaat?? limkampuieet – from Oxord/Harvard?? hahaha….!

    go read his writing on these threads

    “Check annual 4-figure brain drain of STPM and Chinese Independent Secondary School students.”

    and…

    “Bersih Gathering/Petition to Agong – PM should show the world that Malaysia is a democratic country”

    come back and tell us! hahahhaa….hehehheheee…rolling on the floor now…taking off my turban, shaving my beard….ready to swear never to grow my beard and put on my turban if he had stepped foot on the grounds of Cambridge and Oxford other than to apply to clean toilets.

  102. #102 by Count Dracula on Monday, 26 November 2007 - 2:58 am

    Limkamput for “all his faults” is, without doubt, an obnoxious character.

  103. #103 by limkamput on Monday, 26 November 2007 - 5:26 am

    I am travelling right now and so I don’t have much time writing. For Earnest, may be you want to read the debate I had with that Cambridge brat somewhere (I can’t remember where). We had a long “live” debate over the blog. If you can read that, I am sure you will get a better picture. As for the rest, I guess I only know too well each of them is an epitome of egoism. I will come back later, really busy.

  104. #104 by Godamn Singh on Monday, 26 November 2007 - 7:37 am

    “An epitome of egoism”??

    You don’t really know what you’re talking about do you, limkampuiiieeet? This is best applied to yourself and not to Jeffrey or this Lee fella from University of Cambridge. You applied the term to about everybody who disagrees with you. How convenient! When you have no answer to give to counter the truth of the allegations made against you, you hope your use of expressions like “an epitome of egoism’ would impress readers and hope they forget the real issue.

    The thread this limkampuiiieeet is referring to and about which he now pleads ignorance so you will not be able to find, is:

    “Bersih Gathering/Petition to Agong – PM should show the world that Malaysia is a democratic country”

    Enjoy!

  105. #105 by lupus on Monday, 26 November 2007 - 9:54 am

    A lot of ego here. Point of View here should be respected, does not matter if we agree with them or not. That is exactly the problem with the current Govt – They do not like their comments, so we will use the law and clam them down. Are we no better than to “flame” other people who’s ideas and thoughts differ from ours ? Stick to the issue and if you guys have a problem, well, exchange your emails and take it off here. I would like to read about other people’s thought about the issue the LKS has posted instead of wasting my time reading about your egos.

  106. #106 by Count Dracula on Monday, 26 November 2007 - 11:07 am

    “Are we no better than to “flame” other people who’s ideas and thoughts differ from ours ? Stick to the issue …………….”

    I agree. Limkamput should stop his tirade against other commentators just because they have different view points.

  107. #107 by undergrad2 on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 1:03 am

    Look guys! It is time you leave this joker alone. He says everybody else here writes poor English but he does not even understand that there is a distinct difference between ‘egoism’ and ‘egotism’.

    Shall we tell him what the difference is?? Naaah…let him find out for himself. We’ll know when he stops using the word ‘egoism’.

  108. #108 by EARNEST on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 4:36 am

    limkamput/Godamn Singh,

    Goodness gracious!! The great debate of November 11, 2007!!

    Very impressive intellectual discourse. Lee, the Cambridge brat reasoned and wrote beautifully. She would say that I am illogical if I conclude that as a result she must be beautiful. Just gut feelings. Like limkamput, who relied on gut feelings, I could probably be right. I am inclined to think that he was right about the gathering being NOT illegal, even though basing on Cambridge Lee’s very convincing philosophical reasonings prowess, she could have won the debate. But, unfortunately she was not trained in law. This was her setback. Wrong premises were assumed leading to flawed philosophical reasonings and conclusions.

    The BERSIH and HINDRAF gatherings were NOT illegal because Article 10 of the supreme law of the land, the Federal Constitution guarantees us our inalienable rights to peaceful gathering without arms. Their rights to peaceful gatherings are also guaranteed the world over by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights 1948. As a result, since Police Act Section 27 regarding the police permit contravenes the supreme law, it is thereby automatically null and void. Otherwise, why are the 3 leaders of Hindraf not charged in Klang Court for defying even restraining court orders against the Hindraf demonstration they led, which was declared “illegal” because there was no police permit. You may wait for a court to repeal the Act to render it ineffective, and suffer in silence despite the violation of your rights. But, you do not need to wait for a court decision to convince you that Black is Black, when an Act and the police state that Black is White.

    limkamput is a highly intelligent person. Even Cambridge Lee conceded that he should be a Harvard Professor. I too thought he could be from Oxford or Harvard, before I read about the great debate. Do not underestimate limkamput. I think he is a pragmatic genius.

    Let me tell you my personal experience. My former boss was a highly intelligent and dashing British Oxford PhD graduate (who was as charismatic as Robert Redford) who had established a formidable international reputation because of his prolific and highly regarded research papers he presented in very many international conferences. But he shocked me for saying that a plant would not die of too much watering. He could not believe me that the over-watered plant would rot and die. This was because he was a strictly a scientific theory man, dealing mainly with biotech plants kept in sterile solution in test-tubes. But he was not aware that outside the lab, when planted on soil, there were bacteria and fungi which could cause rotting, which an uneducated farmer would have known by gut feelings, even though the farmer knew nothing about bacteria and fungi.

    Godamn Singh, DarkHorse, Undergrad2, dawsheng, Jeffrey and Cambridge Lee all do not agree with limkamput. Some disparaged him rather unfairly. We are like one family. I treat all of you fairly like my own children. However, I can not help agreeing with most of his points of view. His unpopularity is due to his choice of words against his brothers and sisters. But, his input should not be sidelined. He is like in the position of Copernicus or Galileo. A lot of their contemporaries disagreed with them. But, they were proven right eventually.

    Godamn Singh, don’t you agree with me. I can be your Grandpa, y’know.

  109. #109 by Colonel on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 9:11 am

    Don’t know exactly what you’re talking about but if it is about some poster or posters failing to observe civility, there can be no excuse. No one should insult a fellow participant in this forum for churning, in his opinion, some useless piece of garbage for posters to read.

    Can I call you stupid for saying here that Section 27 of the Police Act is rendered null and void because it contravenes Article 10 of the Constitution? Can I call you a moron? Being right about an issue does not give me the right to call you stupid or a moron.

  110. #110 by ALtPJK on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 10:24 am

    We indulge in this forum knowing that whether we are a bank clerk or Tun or student or YB or scholar or TanSri or businessman or lawyer or supporter or neutral commentator or Dato or Mat Rempits (giving them benefit of the doubt as to their ability to write) or UMNO/MCA/MIC mole, we each have an equal voice.

    We are afforded the luxury of equal and liberal use of airtime. Contrast this to the opprtunities or the lack of them that YB Lim KS has to contend with throughout his life as our representative. In Parliament, he and his fellow MPs are often shouted down by YBs of the BN type. In the media, YB Lim does not get an iota of a chance to have his piece mentioned. This is an avenue where he gets to say his piece and we can join in.

    So we must not squander what we have and not let this forum degenerate into a mud slinging match nor let it be hijacked for egoistic pursuits. We say our piece and present our views but we must remain civil in our exchanges. Only then we can attract civil-minded and astute commentators to contribute their considered
    views and constructive ideas.

    We must mindful too that minus our masquerades, there could be UMNO/MCA/MIC moles mingling around and hell-bent into making this forum a farce.

  111. #111 by DarkHorse on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 11:05 am

    I cannot agree more, ALtPJK.

    “So we must not squander what we have and not let this forum degenerate into a mud slinging match nor let it be hijacked for egoistic pursuits. ”

    We have been around this blog since Kit started it in this format a few years ago. We’ve never seen such relentless bashing inflicted repeatedly on a fellow commentator or commentators merely for speaking out. Jeff is well known among commentators here. He never allowed himself to plunge into a tirade even when abused verbally by a vile commentator such as this ‘limkamput’.

    There is no word to describe this person hiding behind the handle ‘limkamput’ other than “obnoxious”. If it were my blog I’d have banished him from the blog without batting an eye lid. The other commentators, feeling for Jeffrey, only retaliated to the name calling and the invective. They did not initiate it.

    “”We must mindful too that minus our masquerades, there could be UMNO/MCA/MIC moles mingling around and hell-bent into making this forum a farce.”

    Yes, we can expect BN moles especially UMNO moles including those who do not meet the traditional definition of a ‘mole’ and who is here because he is frustrated and feels the need to nurse back his damaged ego. I can sense a few from time to time but usually they do not linger around too long especially when they are ignored by the pack.

  112. #112 by Godamn Singh on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 7:49 pm

    Not to worry. This one did read the messages. You can count on his inflated ego to lead him to this thread to read what you boys wrote about him!

    He just has no reply to offer for his bad behaviour. What’s more I think the man is trying to change. So I think we should leave him alone. Next time he returns to his haughty self, we’ll hammer him again!

    If that doesn’t work then I’ll have to call for a straight jacket and a stretcher.

  113. #113 by EARNEST on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 9:32 pm

    Can I call you stupid for saying here that Section 27 of the Police Act is rendered null and void because it contravenes Article 10 of the Constitution? Can I call you a moron? Being right about an issue does not give me the right to call you stupid or a moron. — Colonel

    The list opposed to limkmaput gets longer, 8 and counting….

    Godamn Singh, DarkHorse, Undergrad2, dawsheng, Jeffrey, Cambridge Lee, Colonel, ALtPJK.

    I can accept Colonel’s disparagement without feeling offended. Opinions are protected by law because they are not falsifiable. It may take years to prove that I am not stupid in holding the above opinion about Section 27 of the Police Act pertaining to power to regulate assemblies, meetings and processions. Even then, I would not say that Colonel is more stupid, but I may be able to say that his disparagement is *&^%$#&~ unwarranted and unjustified.

    If your constitutional right can be compromised by Section 27 of the Police Act, whereby the granting of police permit is up to the police, then your constitutional right can be granted or denied by them. In my humble opinion, holding a peaceful gathering without arms and a police permit is NOT illegal, else Article 10 of the Federal Constitution might as well be scrapped.

    Having said that, don’t get me wrong. I am not saying that we should defy the need for a Police Permit before holding a rally. First, we must acknowledge that there is a problem with the objective of issuance of Police Permit — with permit, rally is legal; no permit, rally is illegal, despite constitutional guarantee. And also why KJ can, why Bersih and Hindraf can’t get it when KJ apparently had no locus standi, and they have real and serious grievances.

    Perhaps YB Lim can make some changes to the rationale behind the Police Permit in Parliament, like changing it to “Police Protection Permit”. The objective of the permit should be not to subject our constitutional right to be allowed or denied by the police, but to inform the police that there is going to be an exercise of this right, a peaceful rally without arms, time, date, place and estimated number of demonstrators and that the demonstrators need police to control the traffic and police protection to ensure that there will be no disturbance from anti-demonstrators. If anti riot police do not provoke them, how could they start a fight, being unarmed?

    However, I agree that disparaging invective and derogatory name calling should be discouraged because it spoils the atmosphere, and I would like to appeal to limkamput to refrain from doing so in future. Okay, limkamput? The list of bloggers opposed to you is growing. Something must be wrong. I do not believe that he is a mole, especially from the ruling party. He is a rebel. He speaks his mind without any pretensions, unfortunately sometimes without considering that someone could be piqued by his choice of words. But, you all must also be fair to him. Jeff had insulted him, insinuating that he was of a “lower level”, and Cambridge Lee had insinuated that she was of a higher level than him, like failing him for his manner of reasoning. He was provoked, and he defended himself using some disparaging words. You must understand that he was Chinese educated and from an attap kampong school, and is upfront and outspoken. With his background, I think his argumentative and writing ability is commendable minus the disparaging part. He can also write good Bahasa, and I believe good Chinese too, perhaps other languages as well.

    BTW, feel free to criticize constructively whatever I write. Perhaps I can learn something from some of you even though I am much older in age. Disparaging words if justified are okay for me. I will not be offended.

  114. #114 by DarkHorse on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 11:07 pm

    “I can accept Colonel’s disparagement without feeling offended.” EARNEST

    Aiyaaaah! Mr. Earnest, the Colonel did not say that lar! Please read more carefully. What he said is the opposite!

  115. #115 by DarkHorse on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 11:10 pm

    “…You must understand that he was Chinese educated and from an attap kampong school..” EARNEST

    How do you know?? Because he says so? It is like reading my handle and say that I am a horse!

  116. #116 by EARNEST on Tuesday, 27 November 2007 - 11:43 pm

    DarkHorse,

    On second thought, you could be right. School with attap roof within living memory? limkamput?

  117. #117 by Jeffrey on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 12:47 am

    I have never insulted anyone personally being of a “lower level”. I said I would not trade insult in defence of another insult. The engagement in such mutual tirades would be to descend to a “lower level” of exchange in the context of this blog. This is the context.

  118. #118 by EARNEST on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 3:07 am

    Dear Jeffrey,

    My comment was based on your exchange with limkamput as reproduce below:

    # limkamput Says:
    November 11th, 2007 at 02: 05.37

    START:

    …..to engage quid pro quo at your level of discourse. Jeffrey

    Why, my level too low for you? Surely you are a very humble
    person.

    One more thing, please don’t forget that tolerance includes not
    just freedom of others to express their views but also the ability
    to accept criticism of your postings. I think you have held sway
    with your half baked ideas for too long. You will be hearing from
    me more often from now on, whether you like it or not.

    END:

    You expression “at your level of discourse” was interpreted by limkamput as “lower than your level”. It might appear to be so to a reasonable person on the street. Furthermore, you did not rebut him.

    Would you like to withdraw what you said to him to make amends? Obviously you were provoked and piqued by his brutally frank style of speaking his mind which had also offended at least 7 others.

    You see, I like people who are courageous and brutally frank with me. I will not be offended or provoked to demean them. I may even thank them, if I believe I may improve that way.

    Your exchanges with limkamput reminded me of an exchange between a Caucasian man and a local Professor, which took place during an international scientific conference very many years ago. The Professor was presenting a research paper on his innovative ideas which did not make sense at all, in fact preposterous to me, and I believe to many others in the audience as well. But, we just listened quietly somewhat amused. But the Caucasian man could not stand him, and despite his friends trying to stop him, he stood up and said “You are talking rubbish!” Imagine, he said this directly to the Professor in the presence of thousands of other scientists. I admired his courage and outspokenness. Nevertheless, later he did openly apologize to the Professor for offending him.

    Don’t get me wrong, there is no innuendo here. Most of the bloggers here admire you for your input, and in fact some had expressed their great annoyance against limkamput for disparaging you.

  119. #119 by undergrad2 on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 9:53 am

    So far this limkaput has been reading comments on this thread but does not have the balls to defend himself beyond making bare assertions.

    Like I said earlier, “Even a dog knows when to put that tail between its legs – and run!”

  120. #120 by Jeffrey on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 3:09 pm

    Dear Earnest,

    ‘…to engage quid pro quo at your level of discourse..’ must be viewed in context of what transpired earlier.

    Earlier we were engaging in discourse of civil nature ie people may disagree on opinions and even attack the message but not the messenger.

    Then Limkamput came around (drew first blood) and started attacking messenger by calling me names ie stupid or cock talking instead of attacking merits or demerits of the message.

    The message then flies out of the window and further arguments whether from me or him will be at the level of trading insults at messenger, to and fro, which I don’t think it is proper to engage in – within the space of this blog.

    When I said, “I would not engage to engage quid pro quo at your level of discourse”, it would be obvious I refer to ‘his level of discourse’ of hurling personal insults at messenger than the message, which he started.

    That “lower than your level” should be interpreted by limkamput as meaning something else than what I explained is not something that I can influence or have control. Nor is it necessary for me to further engage in rebuttal of something I thought, and still think is reasonably clear with someone whom in my assessment is inclined to make attacks on personalities than the merits or demerits of what was said.

    Not rebutting or engaging is my privilege: it does not imply agreement or consent to what the other interprets.

    On what you said, “Would you like to withdraw what you said to him to make amends? Obviously you were provoked and piqued by his brutally frank style of speaking his mind which had also offended at least 7 others” I would say:

    1. I would certainly not withdraw;

    2. Yes I was then “provoked and piqued” by his brutally frank style of speaking his mind – I agree with the words “provoked and piqued”
    as applied to the circumstances then but I think “brutally frank” is a euphemism for brutally insulting not just to me but other posters;

    3. I don’t expect any withdrawal or apology from him as he shouldn’t from me;

    4. Having said that I bear no grudges with regards to anyone or Limkamput – it is really too petty to do so here in this medium – and apart from the above cited exchange, which you don’t seem to agree with the context I have made the statement – I don’t recall having made any personal attacks on Limkamput as a person as distinct from the contents of what he posts, if any. :)

  121. #121 by Jeffrey on Wednesday, 28 November 2007 - 3:25 pm

    “…..in fact some had expressed their great annoyance against limkamput for disparaging you…//” is only partially not wholly the case – as if you go through the postings you will see that he hurls personal insults at others as well (not just me) with whom he disagreed or disliked what they said.

  122. #122 by EARNEST on Thursday, 29 November 2007 - 2:20 am

    Dear Jeffrey,

    It is okay, Jeffrey. You are an epitome of civility. I sincerely mean it.

    It is perfectly legitimate to hit back in self-defence when attacked. I can support you for even saying “God damn it, — Godamn Singh, don’t mind I borrow your handle a while — Lyunkam put, Mind your &*~#$*%ly low level of civility in discourse’ . limkamput, please take it good-humoredly. No offence intended.

    In fact your right to a strong reply when attacked is protected by law. I reproduce below a relevant caselaw:

    START:

    Gatley at para. 14.49, 14.55 and 14.63 quoted in Wan Chiu Ying v. Tam Wai Chu [2005] MLB(HK) 1294 succinctly set out the relevant law thus:

    Reply to attack.
    Similar to the principle in the last paragraph is one whereby a person whose character or conduct has been attacked is entitled to answer such attack, and any defamatory statements he may make about the person who attacked him will be privileged, provided they are published bona fide and are fairly relevant to the accusations made. The law justifies a man in repelling a libelous charge by a denial or an explanation. He has a qualified privilege to answer the charge; and if he does so in good faith, and what he publishes is fairly an answer, and is published for the purpose of repelling the charge, and not with malice, it is privileged, though it be false. Mere retaliation, which cannot be described as an answer or explanation, is not protected, but the defendant is not required to be diffident in protecting himself and is allowed a considerable degree of latitude in this respect and the law does not concern itself with niceties in such matters. The central difficulty is to distinguish between mere retaliation and attacking the credibility of your opponent in legitimate self-defence.

    END:

    limkamput, hopefully you come back with a higher level of civility in discourse, by first withdrawing your disparaging statements against very many messengers you offended here. Doing so will prove your courage, not your defeat.

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