March 8 “politic al tsunami” is for change to restore justice, freedom, democracy and good governance and not for Islamic state or hudud laws
At the joint media conference on April 1 to announce PKR, DAP and PAS decision to take the next logical step to the March 8, 2008 political tsunami with the three parties tentatively agreeing to establish a Pakatan Rakyat (a proposal and term subject to confirmation by the three respective parties), I said that March 8 general election results were a clear and unmistakable message from the people that they want the three parties to work together to bring about changes in the country to restore justice, freedom, democracy and good governance – and not for an Islamic state or hudud laws.
I was asked by a reporter today whether my statement that the March 8 political tsunami was a demand for change to restore justrice, freedom, democracy and good governance and not for an Islamic state and hudud laws applied only to non-Muslims and non-Malays.
I replied in the negative, as I believe that it is not only the non-Malays and non-Muslims but also the Malays and Muslims who voted solidly on March 8 for justice, freedom, democracy and good governance and not for Islamic state and hudud laws - producing for the first time in 50 years of Malaysian electoral history the national phenomenon of cross-race and cross-religion voting - DAP voters voted for PAS candidates and PAS voters voting for DAP candidates.
Just as it was a great mistake after the 1999 general election to regard its results as a vote for Islamic state and hudud laws (resulting in the DAP leaving the Barisan Alternative in 2001), it will be an equally cardinal error to interpret the March 8, 2008 general election result as a mandate for Islamic state and hudud laws.
It is pertinent to revisit the reasons why DAP had to pull out of Barisan Alternative in 2001. The following is an extract from a statement I made on 30th June 2001, entitled: “BA at crossroads and no more tenable”:
Barisan Alternative is at the crossroads as it is no more tenable with PAS leaders openly flouting the BA common manifesto for “A Just and Democratic Malaysia” and disregarding the opposition of the other three component parties towards an Islamic State.
The Barisan Alternative would not have been formed in the first place to take on the Barisan Nasional as one united front in the 1999 general election if PAS was not prepared to respect the opposition of DAP, Keadilan and PRM to an Islamic State, focussing on the common objectives of restoring justice, freedom, democracy and good governance in Malaysia.
Barisan Alternative leaders should face up to the unpalatable fact that in the next general election, whether 2003 or 2004, if the voters are faced with the choice between an Islamic State and a sixth term of Datuk Seri Dr. Mahathir Mohamad as Prime Minister, the choice would be the latter as Mahathir would already be close to eighty and cannot remain at the helm of government for long while voting for an Islamic State would be the start of a journey which could not inspire confidence and hope from the experience of other countries.
Before the 1999 general election, PAS leaders were at pains to help the other Barisan Alternative parties and leaders to assure the people that the Opposition Front was founded purely on the common objectives of restoring justice, freedom, democracy and good governance and was no agreement on an Islamic State. PAS leaders even went out of their way to explain that there was no basis to worry about an Islamic State as PAS was fielding less than one-third of the parliamentary candidates and could not have the two-thirds parliamentary majority necessary to alter the Constitution for the establishment of an Islamic State.
Of late, however, PAS leaders have decided to openly and publicly disregard the opposition of the other component parties of the Barisan Alternative to an Islamic State and flout the Barisan Alternative Manifesto “Towards A Just and Democratic Malaysia” by publicly reiterating its commitment to an Islamic State.
For instance, the Selangor Bar Journal May 2001 in an exclusive interview with the PAS deputy president Abdul Hadi bin Awang said that at the top of the agenda of a PAS-led Federal Government once it is returned to power is to commence implementing Islamic law, starting with the amendment of Article 4 of the Malaysian Constitution to enable Islamic enactment which are in conflict with laws passed by Parliament to prevail, such as the death sentence for apostasy.
Hadi said that if Malaysia came under Islamic rule an act against the religion would be construed as an act against the State, which would be tantamount to treason for which the sentence was death.
He said: “The laws on apostasy only bind Muslims and do not affect non-Muslims but a non-Muslim should be aware of the consequences of apostasy before converting because then he would come under the purview of Islamic law.”
PAS leaders should not expect Malaysians, both Muslims and non-Muslims, to be unconcerned about such a position, not only from the human rights principles of freedom and justice, but also because of the raging controversy among Muslims including a significant body of opinion among the ulama from the earliest Islamic history that apostasy is not a capital crime as the Qu’ran is completely silent on the death penalty for apostasy.
PAS president Datuk Fadzil Noor from Manchester yesterday urged the DAP not to make a hasty decision by leaving the opposition front over the Islamic state issue or the DAP will be walking right into the Barisan Nasional trap.
DAP will not take the “easy way out” or “walk right into the Barisan Nasional trap” and this was why the DAP had insisted immediately after the last general election that there should be Barisan Alternative leadership dialogues to iron out our ideological differences over an Islamic State. I must say, however, that the dialogue held on June 16, 2001 to deal with the issue had been most unsatisfactory.
The issue confronting the Barisan Alternative is whether the PAS leaders are prepared to respect the DAP’s opposition to an Islamic State in Malaysia not because of anti-Islam sentiments but because an Islamic State in multi-racial and multi-religious Malaysia is not compatible with parliamentary democracy, power-sharing in a plural society, human rights and individual freedoms, women’s rights and social tolerance.
DAP respects PAS for its ideological position on the Islamic State, but in a modern, multi-racial and multi-religious society where non-Muslims comprise some 40 per cent of the population, and where it is not only non-Malays but Malays who oppose the establishment of an Islamic State, is PAS prepared to be realistic and concede that its Islamic State concept is not a practical or feasible proposition or option for Malaysia?
The rest is history. Can we larn from the lessons of history?
April 5th, 2008 at 15: 36.34
Sir,
PAS’s top leaders have to make a statement to be in line with PAKATAN. It has to be made to beg to join i can say do. Their grrass roots have to be fully aware of this development… all their literature and media must manefest the PAKATAN secular manefesto..
April 5th, 2008 at 15: 46.17
Kit:
I see that you have given in to the extremist faction in DAP by openly calling for PAS to “concede that its Islamic State concept is not a practical or feasible proposition or option for Malaysia”. I think it is most unwise, for I can now see the demise of Pakatan Rakyat. I can see the demise of the state governments in Perak and Selangor. I can see fairminded people moving from DAP to PKR. Worse, I can BN now exploiting this issue to the full, and there will be no end to the articles in the mainstream press.
Questions for you:
1. Why raise the issue publicly now when the PAS sentiments were actually raised by PAS Youth and not by Nik Aziz ?
2. Why provide a such a “welcomed” diversion for Badawi and UMNO in their current struggle ?
3. Can there be no compromise behind the scenes e.g. agreeing to certain states like Kelantan, Perlis, Trengganu and Kedah being subject to syariah law ?
Despite your years of experience in politics, I still see blunders being committed - and I think perhaps you are better off at being the Opposition rather than the governing party.
April 5th, 2008 at 16: 02.01
Hi YB Kit,
I hope justice is done by posting the email address of all DAP Aduns and MPs. Questions posted via DAP’s general mail has yet to be answered.
Please do justice to voters like us who have voted in DAP.
April 5th, 2008 at 16: 05.17
You guys (PAS and DAP) are destined to be barking dogs in the Opposition, for you will never learn the lesson of the March 8 tsunami.
April 5th, 2008 at 16: 17.32
Uncle Kit,
Please discuss sensitive issues like these behind close doors in the Pakatan spirit.
You are right when you say that we voted for everything else except for the Islamis state and hudud. PAS should respect the Non Malays and Non Muslims who voted for PAS.
WE DID NOT VOTE FOR AN ISLAMIC STATE OR HUDUD
April 5th, 2008 at 16: 21.20
Sdr Lim senior,
[ Towards a Malaysian Malaysia }
You are right to suggest that there are two different issues for the electorate here.
1. Voting the government for the nation
2. Religious Governance
1.
a. Voting the government in…..was first considered during the S46 challenge….never before, because the opposition could never mount a strong enough challenge….hence the label `opposition’ sticks until even today.
b. The March 8th results show that it is possible for another coalition to rule the country, and this question will become not just a question but a true challenge come 2012 or earlier.
c. The Rakyat chose….and brought down the two-third majority.
Governance according to secular vs Islamic or religious principles is another issue that should [if ever] be handled by a national referendum, involving a major constitutional change.
If ever it comes to pass, the question of the other citizens who are Buddhists, Hindus, Christians, etc has to be and will definitely be addressed.
Thus, the ordinary citizen…muslim or non-muslim need not be concerned about the second question even if PAS sweeps across the nation, because there must surely be various steps, considerations and discussions before that situation arises.
April 5th, 2008 at 16: 29.43
Catch no ball with Godfather’s holy comments… =/
In fact PAS has excluded Islamic state/ hudud laws as its manifesto in the just concluded GE…
and a call for burying Islamic state issue is nothing wrong for the sake of pakatan… or rather DAP…
and I don’t see Uncle LKS addressing PAS youth’s claim yet in the whole passage yet…
Last but not least, I don’t see PKR is not destined to be barking dogs in the Oppo if PAS and DAP are… in fact PKR’s chief also stand against the PAS youth claim to dig into Islamic state concept…
April 5th, 2008 at 16: 34.06
When you draw a line in the sand, you are either on one side or the other. This is what Kit has done with his comment above.
April 5th, 2008 at 16: 35.41
Uncle Lim
This time, the rakyat have made their choice to go against BN. So all DPP has to do is just flow along in the PR pack strongly base on social welfare econmic footing. If you feel some negative remarks have come out from whoever in PAS or PKR or even DAP that you feel will hurt this social welfare economic pack,then by all mean trash it out or bang table at your “internal pack meeting” ie closed door.
It is abosulutely imperative to project a good PR public image lest PR will be a lame sitting for BN to shoot down.
I tend to think that lots of Malays would have voted for BN still if they had known their votes would infact cause BN to lose 4 more states. So beware they may go back to vote BN if you all continue to project an unstable public image. Train & admonish all your people,stop saying or giving any divisive remarks or statements!!!! I have siad it again and again, let your press secretary make all anouncement. The rest just SHUT UP & start serving the people, there are tons & tons of work to do!!!!!
At this point in time the rakyat only want to hear News of corruption & cronism being rooted out, the poor & needy are being taken care of, more foreign investments are coming in etc etc.
All the best to PR!
April 5th, 2008 at 16: 37.00
Even if the idea of Islam state is rather feeble… such claim can pose a huge damage to DAP…
While we know… a Welfare state is well connecting the Pakatan’s component parties…
April 5th, 2008 at 16: 37.39
oops ’sitting duck’
April 5th, 2008 at 16: 39.25
Dear Holy Godfather,
So going against the islamic state is wrong wrong wrong… good on you…
April 5th, 2008 at 16: 39.33
I remember well how Hadi branded u, YB Lim, and Karpal Singh “expired medicine. That was DAP get for working with PAS for the sake of of an united opposition in 1999 despite PAS declaring that it will set up an Islamic state.
I don’t expect leopards to change sports but I expect the new breed of PAS leaders, the so-called professionals (Nasaruddin, Husam, Sallahuddin, Kamaruddin, lo’lo ghazali etc), will have better sense than the “ulamaks” (hadi, hassan shukri etc).
Dont push it PAS!!!!
April 5th, 2008 at 16: 40.36
spots
April 5th, 2008 at 16: 43.52
Hold your horses guys, let’s not jump into conclusion but help YB Kit to keep the cool until the top leaders of the three parties DAP, PKR and PAS are able to sit down for another round of talks. I understand Anwar Ibrahim is way now. This Ahmad Yaakub fella is only a second liner supported by the PAS youths. He a pain alright, trying to stir things up!
April 5th, 2008 at 16: 52.53
We have cyber troopers here planning a field day?
If not please, this is sensitive times, the “union” is still in its infancy, do not use words that we’ll regret later. Let good sense prevail. Thanx.
April 5th, 2008 at 16: 54.09
YB Kit has articulated a principled stand, warning against the repeat of history where PAS says one thing before election to canvass Non Malay/Muslim Votes and says another after the election to advance its agenda.
This is a pluralistic country founded on the Federal Constitution that does not conceive an Islamic state.
So one either opposes or supports an Islamic state for application to the whole country, every state and every Malaysian whether Malay, Indians, Chinese, Iban or so on.
Godfather’s suggestion of a compromise behind the scenes e.g. agreeing to certain states like Kelantan, Perlis, Trengganu and Kedah being subject to syariah law (and the rest secular) is unprincipled, not transparent, sneaky and entirely based on expedience of getting rid of BN and installing Opposition coalition into power with regard to any principle at all whether it will in the process further and advance PAS’s agenda to the detriment of the whole nation, non malay/muslims and Malay/Muslims who are equally opposed to the installation of the Islamic state.
The only basis of such suggestion is to evict the BN and get the Opposition into power for whatever the cost to principles.
Readers think for yourself who is the extremist faction here.
April 5th, 2008 at 16: 55.26
expired medicine ? give them to the Pharmacists……….
April 5th, 2008 at 17: 14.18
YB Kit is not saying all this out of blues.
Immediately after 8th March election why did Kelantan Deputy Mentri Besar Datuk Ahmad Yaakub’s and press secretary to Pas president Roslan Shahir Mohd Shahir make the statements reaffirming “the values of the Islamic state were already incorporated in the Negara Berkebajikan” and that “in states where Pas is the dominant party, we will try to set up an Islamic state” which were contrary to PAS’s position before the election?
Don’t give me the bull that Kelantan Deputy Mentri said it contrary to his boss Nik Aziz Kelantan MB’s acquiesce or that press secretary of PAS president said it without authorisation of PAS President Hadi. The game plan was say different things by different people to confuse and obfuscate from the unwavering agenda.
Put it to a simple test then – ask Nik Aziz to tell his deputy that he is talking nonsense and ask Hadi to contradict his own press secretary – publicly if the intention were not to obfuscate.
Godfather’s remarks “you guys (PAS and DAP) are destined to be barking dogs in the Opposition, for you will never learn the lesson of the March 8 tsunami” are totally off mark. He is the one who has not learned any lesson!
The lesson of the March 8 political tsunami is to move towards the replacement of BN to bring about change to restore justice, freedom, democracy and god governance – exactly as what Kit said.
The lesson was not to evict BN and help advance the eventual installation of the Islamic state for either the whole country or as Godfather suggested partially or selectively in Kelantan, Perlis, Trengganu and Kedah! God forbid if that were the purpose, then I say there is greater nobility in remaining “barking dogs”. It is infinitely better than being a cringing dog willing to sell and mortgage its principles and soul for a share of power to be in government.
April 5th, 2008 at 17: 18.40
Kit
It seems there are still too many issues have to be resolved in a resolute and swiftly manner if the so call pakatan really aim to counter and take down BN effectively. But before you guys able to tackle external issues you all must able to reach a universal consensus with regard to issue pertain to freedom, justice and religion etc. I cant see the logic why pass youth still wanna provoke the sensitive issue of islam whereas religion issue is really the thorn in the flesh for pakatan and it really jeopardize the cooperation spirit and stamina for pakatan in long term and could mean dead or alive for such coalition to exist.
Judging from the speed of the naming of “pakatan rakyat” and the subsequent posting of asking us to give better name for the opposition coalition, we can sense that the pakatan “have been form” more on titular and propaganda basis rather than action force.
But the political reality is pakatan only have upper hand to compete with BN provided always DAP/PKR/PAS are truly in combine strength and force and under any circumstance if such coalition far short of one party would really detrimental to the continuos survival of the opposition political struggle.
Please discuss the religious matter in close door meeting as alerting the public that there are still ongoing open dispute within pakatan particularly DAP vs PAS on the religion matter truly bring absolute harm than good. Perhaps all top leaders of pakatan should put aside the religious issue for the time being and tackle more on vital facing the newly form coalition.
It’s no point forcing PAS to declare they are no longer emphasize on islamic state and even they said so it won’t guarantee that they will “revoke” such declaration in time to come. What DAP or PKR should do is to grow up their own support base and exert check and balance from time to time. But the most important point for PAS is they should not scare other non muslim/non Malay by openly touching the islam issue and therefore it’s vital for top leader of pakatan agree to issue stern warning and disciplinary action to any party member that touching religious issue irresponsibility in the way that cause harm and damage to the pakatan.
April 5th, 2008 at 17: 18.52
sorry - should be “Nik Aziz Kelantan MB’s acquiescence”
April 5th, 2008 at 17: 19.25
My fear is, if PAS is using its 2nd liners leaders as foot soldiers, that’s very sneaky. Meanwhile let’s wait for the top 3 leaders to thrash it out and spank the mischief.
April 5th, 2008 at 17: 21.08
and of course “good” governance not “god” governance
April 5th, 2008 at 17: 30.28
Kit.
I truly disappointed why on earth form the pakatan if there are still numerous issues haven’t being solved? Don’t you all agree and compromised and “assimiliate” wide variety of political ground prior to forming the coalition. Didn’t PAS is wise enough to refrain themselves and keep their mouth shut pertaining to islam state as they know it will not materialize at this point of time and what is DSAI point of view pertaining to PAS continuing stirring up the calm water? Or is it PAS leader having their own hidden agenda and give blessing to whatever their subordinate claim and provoke?
April 5th, 2008 at 17: 44.14
Jeffrey:
Just in case you forget, UMNO has taken a stand that Malaysia is an Islamic state. So if you guys want DAP to withdraw from Pakatan on grounds of “principle”, then you are allowing BN back into the fold in Perak and Selangor. If that is an acceptable outcome for Kit, then by all means stand on this principle and gracefully withdraw from the state excos in these states.
The idea of allowing Islamic law in the predominantly Malay states of Perlis, Kelantan, Trengganu and Kedah was just a suggestion of a compromise as these states probably have a Muslim population of 90 pct or more. Of course one has to work out how Federal law can co-exist under this scenario. How could this be a mortgage of DAP’s soul ??
April 5th, 2008 at 17: 48.19
If Pakatan Rakyat goes for islamic state and hudud laws, then I simply vote for Barisan National again loh……. and am sure many will follow…
April 5th, 2008 at 17: 56.43
DAP accusing PAS of its Islamisation agenda is simply the pot calling the kettle black. Just like I think PAS Youth is extremist, the DAP far right is also extremist and is turning DAP into a chauvinistic Chinese party.
April 5th, 2008 at 17: 57.39
And extremists belong in the Opposition, not in government.
April 5th, 2008 at 17: 57.51
Pakatan Rakyat itself is walking on a tight rope now, and do not be to happy or too confident.
The component parties have a lot to work out if they want to see political change for the better.
Otherwise, PR would just disintegrate in no time when the components start to squable among themselves.
PR has not even started to govern in the few states that they won. It is only in the process of taking the first towards the future which is still very uncertain to them all if they ever want to achieve quantum leap in the political scene here.
We want to see the PR move forward and shows to the voters they desrve to be voted in and that they may be also deserve the next terms, and the next, and the next…
Don’t just stop at where you are now when you all see a flint of light only. If the ‘Oposition’ called this result as “Tsunamai”, what is of vital importance is how ‘Oposition’ move forward from here.
DAP may have won, but now for the next 5 years, what do we want to see? Is it just a flash in the pan that DAP wants?
And then by 5 years’ time, DAP would withdraw itself back into the cocoon, and back to square one, as an Oposition party again?
We want to a strong alliance of the ‘Oposition” parties to counter the BN, and you must have large pool of capable members/people behind the party if you ever want to move forward.
DAP has to prioritise and strategise to move forward, and to be seen to be doing so in the right direction for the people and for the country.
Despite all the misgivings in the press, PR is doing well in the 3 states of Perak, Selangor and Penang, especially in Perak, where they are going permanent titles to the land in the new villages and the kampongs.
So back to you DAP!
April 5th, 2008 at 18: 22.20
We have come so far to deny BN’s 2/3 majority, and captured 4 states in the process, and if were to be suspicious of PAS’ motive now, then we probably have wasted a lot of work done. Not to mention the people’s wishes of throwing BN out in the next GE.
I have said many times, there is no way PAS able to form an Islamic state alone, they need 2/3 majority to do that. Despite that, there are still some stubborners coming up with a lot of wild imaginations to lower the morale of Pakatan Rakyat. Sigh… might as well hand Bolehland to BN in the next GE and continue to live with their racist divide-and-rule policies.
April 5th, 2008 at 18: 26.42
This is in response to what Godfather said.
Segment No One : //Just in case you forget, UMNO has taken a stand that Malaysia is an Islamic state//
Yes but UMNO is trying to be as Islamic as it could but does not take it that far (yet). An Islamic state is not the same as an Islamic theocratic state of PAS’s version. (It is not an appropriate venue here to expand on this but suffice to say one difference you will recall is that PAS wanted to enact hudud in Terengganu that fizzled out because Federal government and police did not support the move. PAS envisages Sharia to be supreme basic law of the land (as applied to all persons) so that when in conflict with any other law, Sharia will prevail, something which BN’s article 121(1)A bifurcating two mutually exclusive streams of law, Sharia and Civil, does not extend so far even considering the unfortunate conversion cases. Anyway the fact that UMNo does wrong to make a pitch towards greater islamisation of a plural society does not justify acquiescence with PAS’s agenda of pushing for its purer version so to speak of the Islamic “theocratic” state.
April 5th, 2008 at 18: 27.28
Enough of all these talking. How well PR governs the 5 states will prove PR’s point and capability. There is no need for rhetorics. That only works for BN. -_-
April 5th, 2008 at 18: 42.06
This is in response to what Godfather said.
· UMNO’s Islamic state does not stand in same position as the Islamic theocratic state of PAS’s version similar to Iran’s. (It is not an appropriate venue here to expand on all differences but it suffices to point out one difference ie when PAS wanted to enact hudud in Terengganu it was not supported by BN’s Federal government and police). Anyway the fact that UMNO does wrong to make a pitch towards greater islamisation of a plural society does not justify acquiescence with PAS’s agenda of pushing for its purer version so to speak of the Islamic “theocratic” state.
· “So if you guys want DAP to withdraw from Pakatan on grounds of “principle”, then you are allowing BN back into the fold in Perak and Selangor. If that is an acceptable outcome for Kit, then by all means stand on this principle and gracefully withdraw from the state excos in these states”. Why should DAP withdraw from in Perak and Selangor state governments? Who broke ground rules, why can’t PAS withdraw? Withdrawal by PAS will not affect DAP’s and PKR’s majorities to maintain state governments in Perak & Selangor.
· Selective application of Islamic state on Perlis, Kelantan, Trengganu and Kedah with Muslim majorities is not something DAP can agree to because its principles (soul) have always been grounded on a theocratic Islamic state in which sharia laws are based on sovereignty of the Almighty and not sovereignty of men voted to Parliament is a “no no” for any one and any state regardless whether its population is muslim majority or not.
· Opposing something like “Islamic state” that is not right for the country and contrary to the Federal Constitution is not extreme as you put it. I am surprised you do not say what Kelantan Deputy Mentri Besar Datuk Ahmad Yaakub and press secretary to Pas president Roslan Shahir Mohd Shahir said were extreme in light of the circumstances of Pakatan Rakyat being formed from the electoral victories of Opposition parties including PAS, which before the election, canvassed for non Muslim votes by downplaying “Islamic state” which is now being played up after the victories.
April 5th, 2008 at 18: 46.35
The logic is beyond me. If UMNO has taken the stand that Malaysia is an Islamic state, does this mean that DAP must also accept PAS’s Islamic state? I think most voters did not get rid of UMNO and BN in March 8 in order to be replaced by a PAS led PR which is behaving like UMNO. Sdr Kit, I think DAP’s position must be made clear and adhered to. The raison d’ etre of DAP is secular Malaysian Malaysia and by adhering to this principle, DAP is not infringing on the rights of anybody irrespective of races, religions and regions. You really need an extremist (or a cyber trooper from PAS) to accuse such a policy as chauvinistic. We must stand firm on our inclusive philosophy. It is exclusive philosophy of PAS that must give way.
I am saddened to hear that those who adhere to view similar as mine are branded extremists (which presumably constitute only 10%). I must repeat here that we even have a PKR leader and MP who was not able to discern the subtlety of PAS strategy by asking PKR and DAP to “work with” PAS just like the way MCA and MIC “work with” UMNO. May I remind you that MCA and MIC and Gerakan did not “work with” UMNO. They worked for or served UMNO. If DAP is not tenacious and focused upfront, the political processes will ensure that DAP is reduced to that of MCA, Gerakan or MIC in due course. We do not want to go this far to go back to square one again. Without secular Malaysian Malaysia, there is no reason for DAP to exist. As much as we want to see a better Malaysia and as much as we want to have better cooperation among PR parties, DAP shall never waver on its principles. It is best that from day one vigorous institutional checks and balance be set up to truncate extreme philosophies of PR parties (from whichever parties they may come from).
April 5th, 2008 at 18: 54.02
Devilmaster says “I have said many times, there is no way PAS able to form an Islamic state alone, they need 2/3 majority to do that”.
You have to consider three factors when PAS puts a motion in Parliament to change basic secular law into Sharia:
1. In next election PAS, if it could dominate the Opposition coalition, may get more seats that what it has now;
2. How sure are you that Anwar’s PKR will not throw their weight for the Islamic state?
3. In a face of a motion for making this country an Islamic state, how sure are you that UMNO will resist it and not lend its votes to support??? So far UMNO is on record trying to out compete PAS on matters of religion and certainly it will not do anything to be seen as acting against it. Therefore whatever PAS pushes for in this direction in the interest of the Faith, UMNO will either try to do better or at least not sabotage it.
Combined – no two third???
April 5th, 2008 at 19: 01.25
“Can there be no compromise behind the scenes e.g. agreeing to certain states like Kelantan, Perlis, Trengganu and Kedah being subject to syariah law ?” godfather
I am sorry, how short sight can this idea be? But I think Jeffrey has responded to that so I shall leave it as it is.
April 5th, 2008 at 19: 02.20
Sorry, should be …..short-sighted
April 5th, 2008 at 19: 31.18
YB Kit,
You have got more problems in your hand with your coalition partners, and I don’t just mean PAS.
Axcording to Malaysiakini’s report filed by Fauwaz Abdul Aziz | Apr 5, 08 4:22pm, “PKR vice-president Mohd Azmin Ali claimed today that the party has already persuaded “close to 30″ Barisan Nasional members of Parliament to reject the leadership of its chairperson Abdullah Ahmad Badawi…. Their concern is (for) the country, the nation. They want someone who is strong and credible to lead the country,” Azmin told reporters after a thanksgiving gathering in Keramat, Kuala Lumpur. To them, even the non-Malays - the Chinese, Indians, Ibans and Kadazans - accept the fact that the leader has to be a Malay Muslim, but at the same time, that particular person has to be accepted by the other communities…In this context, they feel the best person is Anwar Ibrahim,” said Azmin in reference to PKR’s de facto leader.Reiterating that there was “no money or (other) transaction involved at all in these discussions”, Azmin said these BN MPs, including from Umno and ordinary members at the party’s grassroots level, were “generally dissatisfied with the leadership of Abdullah” .He also disclosed that ‘hopping’ to PKR is not the only option available for these disgruntled parliamentarians. Other than stepping down to make way for a by-election, they may also vote as BN MPs on a motion of no-confidence against Abdullah as BN chairperson, said Azmin.
Do you & DAP support PKR’s initiating by such means a fall of Abdullah Badawi’s government??? Is it good for the stability of the country - will it not incite BN’s leaders and vested interest to react in a manner inimical to the nacent democracy developing after 8th March election???
April 5th, 2008 at 19: 34.44
when UMNO Putra waive the keris and gave some controversial statements during their general meeting … UMNO and MCA said that it is just individual opinion … and the consequence is more and more controversial and discrimination statements thrown out by more ppl (out of control) … this is one of the cause why BN lost in 2008GE …
so for DAP, learn this lesson from MCA … when u should sound and when u should not … and make best use of ur experience and intelligence to overcome this issue …
Else, u will be the next MCA …
April 5th, 2008 at 19: 35.11
“….nascent democracy”
April 5th, 2008 at 19: 50.23
DAP can be viewed as a lot of things but it had always been true to its position of a secular state.
If I am a Muslim, I would certainly like an Islamic state. If I am a Christian, I would certainly like a Christian state. If I am a Taoist, I would certainly like a a Taoist state…. and so on.
As a Malaysian, I would go for a secular state based on justice, equality & meritocracy. Combining religion and politics is potent and open to abuses. It is too sensitive.
April 5th, 2008 at 19: 55.57
When you instigate a motion of no confidence against the existing government and succeeds, there is but only one result, the Agong will have to dissolve parliament to precipitate the 13th Malaysian General Election following just after the 12th on 8th March. You show that what you want???
April 5th, 2008 at 19: 57.12
“….You sure that what you want and that it is good for the country?…..”
April 5th, 2008 at 19: 59.58
My friends:
Kit is asking:
CAN WE LEARN FROM HISTORY?
The history about the break-up of the Barisan Alternative, the first serious attempt to form an alternative force that may stand a chance to govern Malaysia.
Now we have another chance and a great start at that! Stage one has been achieved: Deny 2/3 majority to the incumbent administration.
Whether stage two can become reality depends on leaders with good sense. It is alright for people here to talk of all kinds of scenarios whether real or imagined, but….
THE LEADERSHIP OF THE COALITION MUST NOT ONLY BE FIRM BUT ALSO CORRECT
MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL, THEY MUST BE WISE
April 5th, 2008 at 20: 14.09
Don’t worry about those crooks knocked over by the March 8 “politic al tsunami”— they have settled well into their new jobs. Just remember not to giggle but to say “hi” when you come across them
http://sloone.wordpress.com/2008/04/05/koh-tsu-koon-and-friends-have-new-jobs/#comments
April 5th, 2008 at 20: 15.45
both PAS and DAP need to loosen their extremism. honestly can DAP be said a truly multiculturalism party. while we harp to move away from race based political affiliation, reflect back wether we are not. DAP needs to start reforming or will be feared to become irrelevant in a decades time.
April 5th, 2008 at 20: 34.32
“The rest is history. Can we learn from the lessons of history?” Kit
“History teaches us that man learns nothing from history”
~ ~ HEGEL
April 5th, 2008 at 20: 44.48
“Those who fail to appreciate history are bound to repeat the same mistakes” - George Santayana.
April 5th, 2008 at 20: 49.39
Islamic state. No! No!. That’s why PAS is unable to make a breakthrough in Sabah & Sarawak.
April 5th, 2008 at 20: 49.43
One day after posting the thread of asking us to suggest names for Pakatan Rakyat, Kit has now started this thread to appease the anti-PAS faction within the DAP.
If we don’t speak up now, Kit will think that naysayers like Jeffrey and Limkaput are representative of mainstream DAP support.
April 5th, 2008 at 20: 53.41
When you think about PAS leaders and their pursuit of an Islamic state, what Nikita Khrushchev said in 1960 comes to mind.
“Politicians are the same all over: they promise to build a bridge even where there is no river.”
April 5th, 2008 at 20: 54.24
Jeffrey Says:
1. In next election PAS, if it could dominate the Opposition coalition, may get more seats that what it has now;
If PAS could dominate the Opposition and get more seats, it still needs to get the magical number 2/3 majority. Unless PAS is able to contest at least 148 Parliamentary seats and win 100% of it, then you are right. But this wont be happening. If PAS were to contest 148 seats, then what about DAP & PKR? Does it mean DAP & PKR will settle for the remaining 74 seats? Do you think PAS could easily penetrate Sabah & Sarawak? PAS could not even make inroad into Malacca & Johor. What is there to worry about?
2. How sure are you that Anwar’s PKR will not throw their weight for the Islamic state?
Since when did Anwar has interest in forming an Islamic state? Never had he mentioned it before. Will Anwar take this gamble and put his party at stake? Will his members revolt against him? Nobody knows. No point talking of PKR supporting PAS’ ideology here.
3. In a face of a motion for making this country an Islamic state, how sure are you that UMNO will resist it and not lend its votes to support??? So far UMNO is on record trying to out compete PAS on matters of religion and certainly it will not do anything to be seen as acting against it. Therefore whatever PAS pushes for in this direction in the interest of the Faith, UMNO will either try to do better or at least not sabotage it.
UMNO has been trying to out-Islam PAS for so many years. Will UMNO succumb to PAS’ brand of Islam? It is a very,very remote chance. If UMNO does that, it will be the end of UMNO. UMNO hate PAS more than they hate DAP. I can tell you UMNO will prefer to wait another 5 years to regain power rather than submitting to PAS. I will agree with you UMNO will try to do better than PAS in religious matters but defintely they won’t join hands with PAS. Party ideologies different.
Now the choice is like this:-
a) continue with BN rule
b) give Pakatan Rakyat a chance (no matter what happens inside)
April 5th, 2008 at 20: 58.48
Limkaput:
What’s so short-sighted about the idea of letting a state that is 95 pct Muslim impose syariah law ? The 5 pct can override the 95 pct ? Perhaps you think that you are smarter than the 95 pct and therefore can impose your headmasterly ways on the 95 pct ?
April 5th, 2008 at 20: 58.56
There really is very little chance that PAS can single handedly impose Syariah law or make States like Penang, Selangor and Perak into Islamic states no matter how much they zealous they are. Imagine the public furore and uproar should PAS suddenly find it possible to close all entertainment joints, mandate all women to cover their head or forbid them to go to school and remain as sex object for the men to satisfy they lust in these places where a large proportion of the populations are Chinese and Indians and others of other religion. Give them more credit for their intelligence. This is not going to happen and will not happen no matter what they say. Therefore I think it is more important now to start governing than to find possible loop holes in idealogies of the component parties. It is more relevant now with more power in hands of Pakatan to see how the states under them can start catching up with the rest of the world. We are loosing precious time. We MUST stem the very serious brain drain. We cannot allow all the bright sparks in the country every year to be chased away to other countries to seek their fortune. Please START working, reverse the drain and MAKE the change. It is not so long till the next election and if Pakatan cannot deliver it will be booted out no matter whether it advocate Islamisation or otherwise.
April 5th, 2008 at 21: 03.02
Devilmaster:
These guys would rather let BN rule (and steal) than to cooperate with PAS. Their “what if” scenarios are so pathetic but they serve to reinforce the insecurity within the DAP. It is sad that after the rakyat gave them a chance to see what they can do as the ruling faction, they (almost) instantly spurn the chance and would rather be the barking dogs of the Opposition of old.
April 5th, 2008 at 21: 06.48
The stark reality is that in twenty years from now, the Muslim majority will increase from the current 60 pct to around 75 pct based on current demographics. Rather than engage our fellow Malaysians and find a working relationship with PAS so that we can govern wisely, some prefer to remain as the champions of Chinese chauvinism.
April 5th, 2008 at 21: 08.38
ChinNa,
Don’t presume that everybody would like put their religious systems to govern the country.
I’m Christian, but never in my right mind would I want a Christian government.
History have proven that religious state are unstable. That is the reason why it was separated from the political system and is in the domain of the monarchy.
Religion deals with dogmas, you can do this, you can’t do this.
But real life, especially in a multi-ethnic, multi-religion country like ours, calls for flexibility and pragmatism. Something the ulamas, priests, cardinals, bishops cannot do, unfortunately.
Thus a SECULAR state is the best solution.
Frankly, even at moment, Malaysia being a Secular state, with Islam as official religion, we are still seeing high-handed action from folks like IKIM, wanting to impose Syariah Law on non-muslims.
DAP is our only hope to check against this tide of religion permeating into our government.
We vote DAP-PAS-PKR, not to set up a Religious State, but a Secular state that is fair to all, transparent in its governance, and accountable to the Rakyat. Not some religious authority somewhere who take it upon themselves that they have the authority from God to dish out punishment and judgement as they deem fit.
Don’t drag us back to the dark ages.
April 5th, 2008 at 21: 12.02
Godfather,
Indeed, DAP need to draw a line in the sand.
Malaysia is a SECULAR state, with Islam as the official religon, as stated in our constitution and upheld by Supreme Court judgement.
Please respect this Constitution drawn up by our founding fathers.
April 5th, 2008 at 21: 23.11
Jeffrey said, “Withdrawal by PAS will not affect DAP’s and PKR’s majorities to maintain state governments in Perak & Selangor.”
Are u joking? Need Prozac izit?
This is one fact that i wanted to highlight!
Of course in 12th GE, malay muslims voted DAP and nonmuslims voted PAS. But this is mainly due to the anti-BN factor and protest vote.
After 12th GE, PAS and PKR had successfully reached on communities crossing the racial and religious lines. DAP for the meanwhile is lagging behind, maintaining its Chinese chauvinist image and putting a scare towards muslims on its strict secular view with hawkish anti-Islamic state stance.
Proof? One MIC branch in Taiping got disbanded and whole 110 members entered PAS, remember? The question is WHY NOT they enter DAP or PKR which according to some ppl over here stands on secular principle? the fact that PAS’s Supporter Club until now received numerous new entry applications, do some ppl wana turn blind to THIS?
If it is really that PAS’s current image do scare nonmuslims in this nation, why are these happening? The fact that nonmuslims in this nation had started to accept PAS’s moderate Islamist identity had put DAP into jealousy. PAS had successfully reached out toward nonmuslims but DAP TOTALLY failed to reach on muslims especially among malays.
So to those ppl who turned blind on what the ppl had voiced out in the last GE, i am at my utmost happiness if uguys continue to do so and im looking forward for the same old lame Chinese chauvinist DAP, a secular and hawkish anti-Islamic state stone-headed political party….
To my muslims friends, remember what had happened in Turkey, Egypt, Iraq etc as secular state seemingly justice on paper is used as a tool to scrap away your birth rights to practice what u believe.
I had lost hope to this current DAP leadership and im calling for YB Lim and YB Karpal Singh to step down to allow a more progressive, tolerant new leadership to take over DAP. Period!
April 5th, 2008 at 21: 25.58
petestop,
rest assured. Malaysia is a secular state. Genting Highlands is our best proof.
April 5th, 2008 at 21: 28.44
petestop:
I don’t have a problem with DAP drawing a line in the sand, but why didn’t they draw the line before the elections so that the voters can have an informed choice ? You think DAP would have the number of seats that they have without Malay support ?
If you want to draw a line in the sand, and “learn from history”, then you should not be a hypocrite and accept PAS supporters’ votes and then start disparaging PAS once you are voted in.
April 5th, 2008 at 21: 34.59
Pakatan Rakyat is acting like an opposition. Let show us your capabilities to adminster the state. No point argue. Mandate had been given. People are not fool. Fool once… Smarter next time. Pakatan rakyat is not an better alternative.
Barisan Nasional need to reform, rebuilt and restrategy. Perak and Penang will change. Barisan Nasional need to understand people aspiration. Barisan Nasional will return. God bless…..Barisan Nasional.
April 5th, 2008 at 21: 40.51
BN doesn’t need to do anything. Just sit back and watch Pakatan Rakyat implode in the coming weeks or months.
April 5th, 2008 at 21: 52.18
Said former MCA secretary-general Ting Chew Peh: ‘Upon hearing the good news, my townsmen, relatives and friends applauded till their hands hurt.’
‘One who wins the hearts of the people wins the world. Pakatan Rakyat has brought the house down this time,’
http://www.malaysia-today.net/2008/content/view/5533/84/
April 5th, 2008 at 21: 58.49
I wonder the last collapse of BA. Is it PAS who was kicked out, or DAP-PKR-PRM who left or izit ONLI DAP going out?
Whose not tolerant here?
I think if trying to be so damn fascist and force everybody to follow DAP-only rules, why bother to form alliance with others in the first place.
Seeing PAS’s Supporter Club enlarging must had given the saliva-drooling hawkish anti-Islamic state extremist in DAP, a slap in the face.
April 5th, 2008 at 22: 03.26
Godfather says: “The stark reality is that in twenty years from now, the Muslim majority will increase from the current 60 pct to around 75 pct based on current demographics. Rather than engage our fellow Malaysians and find a working relationship with PAS so that we can govern wisely, some prefer to remain as the champions of Chinese chauvinism.”
Chinese chauvinism? What Chinese chauvinism? We have never asked for a Chinese Taoist Malaysia, or a Chinese Christian Malaysia. What we are asking for is secular multiracial and multi-religious Malaysia. It is an inclusive ideal where every citizen irrespective of race, religion, and region will someday be treated equally and fairly in this land of ours. If other races or religious groups can’t see eye to eye with DAP’s Malaysian First, then it is they who are racists or religious bigots. It is they who want to impose their way of life and values on others.
April 5th, 2008 at 22: 05.14
Godfather says: “What’s so short-sighted about the idea of letting a state that is 95 pct Muslim impose syariah law ? The 5 pct can override the 95 pct ? Perhaps you think that you are smarter than the 95 pct and therefore can impose your headmasterly ways on the 95 pct ?”
It is short-sighted to allow states with Muslim majority to impose syariah law because it will never stop there. It does not matter how many percent the Muslim population will be in the future. We can’t simply assume that Malay Muslims are supportive of syariah law. I believe it is the duty of DAP and all right minded Malaysians to fight for a dynamic, cosmopolitan and progressive Malaysia for all Malaysians, male and female, Muslims and non-Muslims.
April 5th, 2008 at 22: 07.42
Godfather,
No, I did not say I am smarter than anybody, do you? The reality is we don’t know what the 95% want, do you? I think what Sdr Lim want to hear is rationale and different points of views. Even if your view is the majority view, that may be temporarily driven by euphoria and fanaticism. Nazism also gained power through popular support initially.
April 5th, 2008 at 22: 09.07
I don’t have a problem with a “Malaysian First” principle, but what if the Muslims in a predominantly Muslim state like Perlis and Trengganu prefer a way of life based on syariah law ? Should the absolute minority prevent this ? This is the chauvinism I am referring to.
April 5th, 2008 at 22: 12.52
“In reality, we don’t know what the 95 pct want…” Limkamput
That’s what elections are for. In Trengganu, it was obvious that the voters don’t want the PAS-style administration and easily voted for the status quo with BN. Every 4 - 5 years, voters have the chance to choose the government they want, and the minority would have to accept the wishes of the majority.
April 5th, 2008 at 22: 17.10
Who is drawing the line in the sand after election, PAS or DAP in the light of recent statements made by PAS leaders?
April 5th, 2008 at 22: 17.46
I didnt see the realistic of pursuing secular state here in malaysia.
Im seeing more of THEORY ONLY aspect of some ppl trying to say that its only Secular state that will work best. Realistically secular had been proven by history that its only looks good on paper, on the other hand intimidate, scraping away everybodies’ rights on religious freedom.
What is the guarantee that a secular Malaysia wont turn into states like Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, US, France, Singapore? 55% muslim mjority Mlaysia rejected secular state, say NO TO SECULAR!
For now, i agree “It is they who want to impose their way of life and values on others.”- if Kelantanese ppl voted PAS Islamic state aim since 1990, whyla got certain ppl asking PAS to officially declare that it no longer pursue for an Islamic state? Its a clear choice for Kelantan ppl, their voice is heard and at the end somebody blindly ignore it? Are they going to get what they voted for, and what is the rights of this SOME PPL to deny it? I see fascism here…
April 5th, 2008 at 22: 28.33
PAS couldn’t make inroads in predominantly Muslim Perlis and Trengganu, and we are making noises about “creeping” Islamisation. We are hearing the doom and gloom noises of “PAS will never stop there” and therefore there is no compromise.
April 5th, 2008 at 22: 32.05
Can someone please telll UMNO that Tun M wasn’t a cause of the poltical tsunami? Dr M is just one of the millions who were fed-up, so his share of the trophy is only one-in-a million; no more.
All the UMNO bandits should just go to some faraway field and main jauh-jauh. Let the country recuperate from their abuses and excesses.
Ismail Sabri, Bera MP, asked Tun M that if he still loves UMNO, to stop attacking UMNO and Pak LAh. Ismail Sabri shoud know that, as always, it is not thatTun M loves UMNO less, it has always been that Tun M loves HIMSELF more!
Tun M was a ’self-less’ PM. Without (him)SELF, anyone would be less-than-a-PM or no one is good enough to be PM.
April 5th, 2008 at 22: 32.23
It seems that not everybody well understand what is an Islamic state is all about… even muslims themself… given by not much opportunity to explain further no wonder the most of malaysian oppose the system.
If I’m a Leader like LKS, I would personally study about it before make a bare judgment on it… most of the non-muslims that I know afraid of it because they have no knowledge about it and what in their head only HUDUD… hah, a virus from the past media.. again I would like to emphasize that it’s not only about HUDUD… even if the HUDUD materalize, most of the BN cabinet may out form the parlimen with their other hand chopped off…
I urge to non-muslim study and understand it before make any bare judgement
April 5th, 2008 at 22: 35.25
Im seeing fascism here…
This is what i meant earlier, secular only looks good on paper, out paper wise very very bad…
Kelantan ppl clearly voted for an Islamic state since 1990 and this secularist chap gonna say NO to it? Is he even a Kelantanese?
Secular really really bad…say NO TO SECULAR..
April 5th, 2008 at 22: 36.21
“What if PAS colludes with UMNO ?” “What if UMNO tries to out-Islamise PAS ?” “What if…..”
The only certain things in life are death and taxes.
To be clear, I am not a PAS supporter, and I don’t approve of the comments of PAS Youth. I only seek cooperation and understanding from all parties so that the opportunity given by the voters on March 8 is not wasted. If all parties start drawing their lines in the sand, then it is game over. The BN thieves that we fought so hard to dislodge will just move back in.
April 5th, 2008 at 22: 37.03
Sdr Lim, in the light of the postings above, I think you have to seriously contemplate the full ramification of what DAP is doing now. I think I can’t freely express what I want to say here because I don’t know the legal implication of such expression.
April 5th, 2008 at 22: 40.58
let me repeat:
limkamput Says:
Today at 22: 17.10 (19 minutes ago)
Who is drawing the line in the sand after election, PAS or DAP in the light of recent statements made by PAS leaders?
Godfather says: “To be clear, I am not a PAS supporter, and I don’t approve of the comments of PAS Youth.”
Then what precisely is your problem.
April 5th, 2008 at 22: 45.45
First, deny muslims rights for an Islamic state, thats ok
Second, deny muslims rights for Hudud Laws, still ok
Third, deny muslims rights to Sharia Laws, that scared me abit
Fourth, ban on muslims wearing tudung in government places, France?
Fifth, ban on muslims wearing tudung in public, Turkey?
Sixth, jails all islamist opposition as they r terrorist, Egypt?
Seventh, kills and take away muslims lands, Palestine?
Secular only looks good on paper, really really bad outpaper!
Say No to Secular…
April 5th, 2008 at 22: 46.20
In case you still can’t understand, my problem with Kit is two-fold:
1. Members of alliances or coalitions should not draw lines in the sand.
2. Members of alliances and coalitions should solve their problems behind closed doors.
There is no such thing as “either you are with me or against me” in politics and Kit should know that.
April 5th, 2008 at 22: 47.00
Co-operation means co-operation. You say things and you do things that are agreed by the three parties in PR. That is what I understand by the term co-operation. Now, did the recent statements by PAS leaders sound like a co-operation to you? Did the three parties earlier agree to those statements?
April 5th, 2008 at 22: 47.53
Co-operation means co-operation: you say things and you do things that are agreed by the three parties in PR. That is what I understand by the term co-operation. Now, did the recent statements by PAS leaders sound like a co-operation to you? Did the three parties earlier agree to those statements?
April 5th, 2008 at 22: 49.30
So two wrongs make a right ?
April 5th, 2008 at 22: 51.03
The problem is…
The call for PAS to forgo its aim for Islamic state, should DAP reciprocate by announcing its forgo the secular state?
55% Muslims cannot accept a strict secular state.
45% Nonmuslims cannot accept an Islamic state.
So why bother shouting on principles that divides us?
See my comments above, im drawing lines on sands just like uguys did. Can easily predict where this is going? Its Nowhere. Period!
April 5th, 2008 at 22: 52.21
when you say “not for Islamic State” actually you have drawn a line for a 60% and a 40%. well done…
April 5th, 2008 at 22: 55.14
syncbasher83, I don’t think you fully understand what are being discussed here. I think you don’t even understand what secularism is. You have a concocted view of secularism.
April 5th, 2008 at 22: 56.42
If I understand you correctly, godfather, what did Sdr Lim do which to your is wrong?
April 5th, 2008 at 23: 03.00
limkamput,
of course ur view that i dont understand. But for me, ordinary citizen just think that ur virtuous theories of secularism only looks good on papers. There are better secularist than u in the nations id listed above. The question is, will your Looked-good on paper secular ideology does not turn our nation into one of above?
I dont think so. The same scare among nonmuslims against Islamic state shared by their muslims friends against Secular! I think u have been swayed away too much on your secular ideology that u forget to see the real picture, the real situation here man!
April 5th, 2008 at 23: 06.17
ok, syncbasher83, you name me one islamic state that is an example to all.
April 5th, 2008 at 23: 08.57
Many DAP voters voted for PAS in on 8th March 2008 because PAS adopted (before the election) the Opposition Manifesto excluding the establishment of an Islamic theocratic state. After securing non Malay/Muslims’ votes to better its performance in the elections based on such a representation, is it right for PAS to now, after the election, reaffirm and revive the Islamic State agenda??? I cannot understand people here who are so pathetic as to have to make excuses for PAS’s conduct, in condonation of such a misrepresentation and deceptive behaviour and acceptance of conduct by a party that shifts goal posts to further its own agenda in flagrant disregard of others’ position and interest.
April 5th, 2008 at 23: 10.21
limkamput.
your approach toward a problem between two different parties is deficient! u r taking ur narrowed-windowed self-centered, self-only right approach which is totally wrong…
u put secular in the middle, pas with Islamic state on the right, dap on the left. and then u started judging, its deficient, self centered!
try putting this way, pas with islamic state on the right, dap with secular state on the left, u r free mind in the middle….then start judging lah, this way better lah. Dont in the first place before even judging u have ur mind set to take side…period!
April 5th, 2008 at 23: 11.18
Members of alliances and coalitions should solve their problems behind closed doors - sounds like UMNO telling MCA and Gerakan how to solve problems.
April 5th, 2008 at 23: 13.22
limkamput,
may i say Kelantan?
now ur turn, name me any secular-championed state that is example for all?
April 5th, 2008 at 23: 13.36
“March 8 “politic al tsunami” is for change to restore justice, freedom, democracy and good governance and not for Islamic state or hudud laws”
The same you can say for Rakyat in Kedah and Kelantan. PAS retained Kelantan and won in Kedah not because the Rakyat there want Islamic State, simply because PAS has an electoral pact with PKR which ensure its survival and subsequently its revival.
Uncle Kit, don’t you think it is high time PKR draw a line in the sand?
The problem is PKR not PAS, if you know what I mean?
April 5th, 2008 at 23: 17.17
“… I only seek cooperation and understanding from all parties so that the opportunity given by the voters on March 8 is not wasted…” - Godfather.
The cooperation was supposedly based on Barisan Rakyat’s Election Manifesto of 2008 excluding the Islamic State. The cooperation was not based on deception, changing the position, after securing electoral victory to reaffirm the establishment of Islamic state which one had represented in the Manifesto to have excluded. Who is not cooperating here? Why do you blame Kit and not PAS???
April 5th, 2008 at 23: 20.29
How do you know that I do not blame PAS ? I said that two wrongs don’t make a right.
Did the Election Manifesto EXPLICITLY exclude the Islamic state agenda, or was it merely silent on this issue ?
April 5th, 2008 at 23: 23.24
When a political party takes a position - for the Islamic state or Malaysian Malaysia or secular state - one takes it for the whole country and not argue that Islamic state is ok for Kedah and Kelantan, not OK for Perak or Selangor, may be Ok for Terengganu but not so for Sarwak and Sabah etc - except an Opportunistic political party of course!
April 5th, 2008 at 23: 24.23
Syncbasher83,
Sorry, I don’t understand you. First, I think you have to learn to write in full. This blog is not sms or youngsters chatting in the chat room. Second, you still have not answered my simple question: name a Islamic state which can be an example for others – in terms civil liberty, economic freedom, rule of law, democracy, prudent economic management etc. I am still waiting. Jangan cakap banyak. Baca lah sikit posting orang lain.
April 5th, 2008 at 23: 24.38
I said that members of a political coalition should not draw lines in the sand. Should I also have said that members of a coalition should behave honourably ?
April 5th, 2008 at 23: 25.40
godfather,
letme answer, it was merely silent on the Islamic state issue…
and the rakyat had given PAS huge mandate…
so whats wrong with DAP to force PAS to officially denounce its Islamic state aim?
im sure if PAS official declare it denounce Islamic state aim before the election, it wouldnt win big in kelantan and take big on Kedah.
April 5th, 2008 at 23: 26.17
hello, i want a country lah, not a state in Malaysia. You want Malaysia to be an islamic state right?
April 5th, 2008 at 23: 27.41
you see, at least i can think like Jeffrey. I responded to you (syncbasher) before i read his posting.
April 5th, 2008 at 23: 29.51
im reading…
and my answer is still kelantan, in term of all those things u mentioned above!
wanna know the reason why?
the basic Islamic state idea brought by PAS is NEVER FORCE any of the Islamic state principle into full force. It should be done accordingly and in line with rakyat’s acceptence to it. Understand?
now show me any secular-championed state that is example for all?
April 5th, 2008 at 23: 31.41
Sir Lim Kit Siang,
I dunno why you are so afraid about Islamic State and Hudud. For your information, may be you already know, that Islamic State is just like what you think about juctice, peace, no-corruption, welfare, no-crime, and so on (all of this incorporated in Islamic State term). And, it may be better than what in your mind.
Sir,
Dont be prejudice and too fanatic with your chauvinist ideology, and cannot tolerate with other. Hudud or syaria laws, is only for Muslims, not for us non-Muslims. We will given the choices, whether we want hudud or current civil law. Hudud is not compulsory to us. That is only the way if you are going to make juctice and peace in this beloved country.
Sir,
look up for Malaysia, multiracial and multi-religional country. Dont act as Malaysia is only your own land. We should look foward. You better study-and-study the Islamic State concept, and hudud, from original source, and trusted source. I have learned it by study, and found that this is the best way to make harmonic, peace and justice country.
Sir,
Dont be afraid. PAS will not cut your hand, even you rob peoples properties, but civil law will. You are non-muslim, not compulsory to be judge by hudud. And also, you no need to afraid because you are not going to be a robber. That a simple logic. Only a robber will fear of hudud. Only a killer will fear of hudud. You and Karpal Sing are not a robber, not a killer, so why both of you so afraid then?
Sir, please…
please dont look very obstinacy. I see PAS leaders can tolerate with you and DAP. You also can, sir! I know that there were a tolerance concept used by PAS according to their religion - tolerance to non-Muslim. islam teaches them how to communicate with non-Muslim. So they have guideline to do it. Dont make this PAkatan rakyat breakdown like BA. Please, we dont want BN return to lead us!
April 5th, 2008 at 23: 33.08
“Did the Election Manifesto EXPLICITLY exclude the Islamic state agenda, or was it merely silent on this issue ?” - Godfather.
On an important and controversial issue that has divided DAP & PAS, a Manifesto (upon which their collaboration was forged) has to explicitly state the Islamic state agenda if that was on the cards. If it was not stated, then all reasonable interpretation is that it is excluded.
To deliberately keep silent to open the way for its subsequent reassertion is a deceptive and unprincipled move, indefensible on any score. What transparency are you talking about that you are fighting against BN on when this simple rule of transparency canot be observed?
If it were argued for so long as the Manifesto did not mention explicitly exclusion of Islamic state, it opens the way for its subsequent inclusion, then it will open the way for anything else that is not mentioned Manifesto to be now reasserted, whether you’re talking of a 100% pure secular state or even a communist state!
April 5th, 2008 at 23: 34.16
Uncle Lim,
To save you all the troubles of sleepless night of the never-ending debate of Islamic state, you should do this - QUIT PAKATAN RAKYAT.
End of story. End of debate. DAP is better off going solo.
“Can we learn from the lessons of history?” - Kit
The lesson will tell us that history will repeat itself.
It’s still not too late to quit now.
Quit now, or history of DAP dismal showing in 1999 GE will repeat itself.
April 5th, 2008 at 23: 39.00
“On an important and controversial issue that has divided DAP & PAS, a Manifesto (upon which their collaboration was forged) has to explicitly state the Islamic state agenda if that was on the cards. If it was not stated, then all reasonable interpretation is that it is excluded.” Jeffrey
You and I may interpret it that way, but others could say that it was left open because there was no consensus. In politics, you can agree to disagree.
April 5th, 2008 at 23: 40.14
“How do you know that I do not blame PAS ? I said that two wrongs don’t make a right” - Godfather.
What are you talking about? If PAS is wrong in reneging on the Manifesto forming the basis of coperation between DAP and PAS agreed before the election, then Kit has everyright to draw the line, ask PAS to state its position and take it to task.
This is not a situation “that two wrongs don’t make a right”. This is a situation where one is right and the other is wrong and the question is who!
You can’t in such a situation blame PAS - and also blame Kit, which is just about as opportunistic as saying I can have Malaysian Malaysia and also the Islamic state.
April 5th, 2008 at 23: 41.06
hmmm…syncbasher83, limkamput is asking you to provide him a country(negara), not a state(negeri). The best i can help you is Turkey
April 5th, 2008 at 23: 42.49
urm, before DAP quiting PR, can at least do party election. if more hawkish YB Lim and YB Karpal stay leading the party, then honorably quit. Im seeing more progressive, tolerant new leadership in DAP. Can ask Guan Eng ar…
Haiya this tarik tali identity of DAP never end lah…
yesterday said wana send 3 names for perak mb, then lets sultan decide. today, boycott swearing in coz disagree with sultan…
yesterday enter BA, today out of BA
yesterday enter PR, today out of PR
why not in the first place send only 1 name? period!
April 5th, 2008 at 23: 44.41
devilmaster suggested Turkey(at present)
but im still sticking to my answer Kelantan.
However, limkamput can accept both.
now limkamput, wheres my answer? or u could not provide one?
April 5th, 2008 at 23: 44.41
I applaud Kit Siang for raising matters relating to PAS’s idelogical intent. It is pertinent seek a solid foundation to build an alliance of PKR, DAP and PAS based on mutual trust and understanding - not only - of each component parties’ idelogical stance but the pragmatism that needs to applied to garner sustained support to mediate the social and economic well being of a pularal society. It is important that at this early stage of the Alliance to iterate (better still to attempt a draft document of ‘Statement of Common Intent ‘) with regards the governace of the Nation. The majority of Electorate has shown willing to embrace the Pakatan Rayat and I hope that they in turn will not dissapoint us.
April 5th, 2008 at 23: 45.08
Dear Uncle Lim
I have hard time explaining to my elder after I convince them to vote for PAS in GE12.
http://shiokguy.blogspot.com/2008/04/pas-another-umno-in-making.html
The above is my take of message to PAS.
Regards
Shiok Guy
April 5th, 2008 at 23: 45.46
I don’t balme Kit on the grounds of sticking to principle. I blame him for the manner in which this so-called dispute has been brought up - some 12 hours after Kit wrote a thread asking for alternative suggestions on names for Pakatan Rakyat.
Read my comments right at the top of this thread. I asked Kit several questions, one of which was whether this could be better resolved behind closed doors.
April 5th, 2008 at 23: 46.05
//You and I may interpret it that way, but others could say that it was left open because there was no consensus. In politics, you can agree to disagree// - Godfather.
The question is whether you and I - and all of us - engaged in a discussion or a debate over an important issue want to interpret reasonably or unreasonably.
What others could say that it was left open because there was no consensus is their business and they are entitled to their opinion.
What we should be concerned is what is right and wrong and whether we ourselves are reasonable in our interpretation and approach in what we say.
April 5th, 2008 at 23: 51.44
First, deny muslims rights for an Islamic state, thats ok
Second, deny muslims rights for Hudud Laws, still ok
Third, deny muslims rights to Sharia Laws, that scared me abit
Fourth, ban on muslims wearing tudung in government places, France?
Fifth, ban on muslims wearing tudung in public, Turkey?
Sixth, jails all islamist opposition as they r terrorist, Egypt?
Seventh, kills and take away muslims lands, Palestine?
Secular only looks good on paper, really really bad outpaper!
Say No to Secular…
April 5th, 2008 at 23: 52.21
Jeffrey:
Many voters know for a fact that PAS would NEVER denounce its Islamic agenda, but we also know that there is sufficient check and balance from various parties, including UMNO, that an Islamic state (in the federal sense) is highly unlikely. That is why the concept of an Islamic Malaysia was never explicitly debunked in the election manifesto. And that is why those who keep calling for PAS to denounce its Islamic agenda has to be smoking dope.
April 5th, 2008 at 23: 57.39
Sorry, watching soccer lah.
Turkey? If Turkey has no IMF help, long time it has gone kaput. Ok, tell me what is good about
What is the point of me providing you a successful secular state when you have made up your mind there is none. Katak di bawah tumpurung lah your world view. I don’t think i can ever convince you. Suffice for me to say, almost all developed countries are secular states.
April 6th, 2008 at 00: 00.32
sorry, …..Ok, tell me what is good about Turkey?
April 6th, 2008 at 00: 05.49
I dispute “check and balance from various parties”. If at all the check and balance must be within the Opposition. There is why DAP cannot be cowered as not to take PAS publicly to task over Kelantan Deputy MB’s and press secretary to PAS President’s statements (as you suggested). Within the Opposition what check and balance has Anwar/PKR offered on this issue? He has kept silent. He is more interested in 30 BN MPs helping him to have a vote of no confidence on Badawi & his cabinet. How could you include UMNO as check and balance against an Islamic state (in the federal sense) when (1) it has been harboring pretensions of out-islamising PAS (2) facing an imminent vote of no confidence (if what PKR vice-president Mohd Azmin Ali said were to be believed) and (3) if some of them are willing to collaborate with Opposition to vote against their own president and even cross over, do you mean they have any principles to oppose the Islamic state?? A lot of MPs will swing to whoever the victor. I have not suspected you actually thought well of them that they had spine to oppose on principle the Islamic state if pushed by Pas leading the Coalition.
April 6th, 2008 at 00: 08.33
WHAT IS ISLAM?
The March 8, 2008 political Tsunami has bring us to a new reality of a two party system and the incumbent administration is trying very hard to throw a spanner into the hub that is propelling us towards this new reality called “A NEW MALAYSIA” by playing up speeches made by radical elements in each of the coalition partners and the gullible are lapping it up with glee….
This is indeed disturbing.
I believe that Kit as an experienced and battle hardened veteran will be able to help steer the coalition in the right direction. It would not be a bad idea for DAP to take the initiative to form a committee tasked with learning about WHAT IS ISLAM in order to be able to find a practical way in which even PAS and DAP can find common grounds to work together.
With a better understanding of Islam, as leaders of the people the coalition should be in the position to address and allays any mis-guided fears of the people.
I have scoured the internet and found something on Islam which I would like to share with my friends:
Islam of the Prophets versus the ‘Islam’ of the theologians.
What are the major differences between the two?
1) Firstly the first and true Islam is first and foremost inclusive, whereas the second practices exclusivity.
2) Secondly, the first and true Islam accepts and practices toleration of other religions, whereas the second does not.
3) Thirdly, the first and true Islam accords perfect and absolute freedom of belief, whereas the second does not.
4) Fourthly, the first and true Islam proclaims itself the Religion of Truth (Quran 48:28; 9:33; 41:53 & 61:9) and the Religion of God (Quran 110:2), which will naturally prevail over all false religions in the future. This will come about, not through force, but through the inevitable but natural triumph of truth over falsehood.
5) Fifthly, the first and true Islam propagates a world legal system based on justice and compassion, whereas the second’s legal system, the so-called Shariah is arbitrarily based on many mistaken perceptions by traditional legal practitioners, as witness the so-called fixed Hudud laws.
6) Sixthly, the first and true Islam places human welfare as the highest priority on par with obedience to God, as witness God’s elevation of the human being to a status of His vicegerent in the Cosmos. Whereas the ‘Islam’ of the theologians almost crashes the human being beneath the weight of Divine Omnipotence, of course, under their self-proclaimed tutelage.
7) Seventhly, the first and true Islam has no priesthood, whereas the second has, giving themselves the false title of ‘Guardians of the Faith.’ In the first and true Islam, the individual approaches God directly without any intermediary, for the very idea of intermediary automatically nullifies monotheism.
9) Ninethly, the first and true Islam allows pluralism in religion, culture, politics and law, as it believes firmly in the triumph of truth, justice and compassion in the end, as this is actually the Grand Divine Plan for mankind.
10) Tenthly, the first and true Islam, seeks, works towards and struggles for a just world, where as the second ‘Islam’ is a hotchpotch of confusion, leading mankind nowhere.
A LEADER OF WISDOM WILL SEEK TO UNDERSTAND RATHER THAN CONTEND
Good luck KIT, I sincerely hope you will NOT ALLOW history to repeat itself. GO AND MAKE IT HAPPEN!
April 6th, 2008 at 00: 09.42
Can someone please tell UMNO that Tun M wasn’t the cause of the political tsunami? ENDANGERED HORNBILL
I just called Mahathir. He told me the only tsunami he knew had struck Aceh, Indonesia and not UMNO. I then called Badawi. He told me he didn’t know what struck UMNO since he was asleep.
April 6th, 2008 at 00: 12.54
Sorry… I should cite the source of my information on Islam:
http://www.masjidtucson.org/publications/books/SP/2006/aug/page1.html
April 6th, 2008 at 00: 14.13
errr should ask devilmaster bout that coz hes da one suggesting it!
remember im sticking my answer to Kelantan…
of what i know bout Turkey. recently new more progressive AK party took over from those secularist (ur ideologimate). most leaders of this AK Party has islamists roots, of course the main aim is to clean up the corrupted government but their islamist agenda was not forced onto the ppl…
its not like today declare Islamic state, tomorrow gotta chop everybodies hand, head etc…
If ur saying that my view on secular is like Katak di bawah tempurung, i have my right oso to say that u r like Lembu dicucuk hidungnya…hahaha
simply say islamic state like iran lah…look at Kelantan lah, no need to go far. dont turn blind on kelantan. Its Pas’s islamic state ur condemning, so say lah if there any nonmuslim being mistreated there, no need to talk about iran, its malaysia here…
be considerate lah, realistic. as far as i know, dap never rule any negri before. gona withraw from PR somemore, no more CM Guan Eng…
gosh….he himself saying Pas’s Islamic state gona turn malaysia into iran, then blaming me saying dap’s secular gona turn malaysia into old secular turkey! period!
April 6th, 2008 at 00: 23.01
Under usual circumstances, keeping silence on issue X in a party P’s election Manifesto does indeed leave leeway to sneak X back into P’s policy after the election. Leaders of P can even claim that they have maintained ‘technical honesty’ since pushing for X now does not contradict its silence on X in its manifesto.
But note that this is true only ‘under usual circumstances’, in which the silence on X in P’s manifesto has not been cited by P’s leaders to assure those worried about X that the silence on X in P’s current election manifesto shows that X is no longer an issue or that P will not pursue X.
When P’s leaders have cited the silence on X in P’s current manifesto to assure people that P will not pursue X, sneaking X back into P’s policy or declared intention after election does not leave room for any ‘technical honesty’ mentioned above.
In any case, it seems to me that, whether ‘technical honesty’ can be maintained or not, PAS has been consistently using Taqiyya - deceptive strategies.
April 6th, 2008 at 00: 28.22
this one another Islam scholar coming…
really excellent in using islamic terms but unluckily really dunno that fits in his context or not…
simply use blindly…
April 6th, 2008 at 00: 33.44
Letme repeat this again…
First, deny muslims rights for an Islamic state, thats ok
Second, deny muslims rights for Hudud Laws, still ok
Third, deny muslims rights to Sharia Laws, that scared me abit
Fourth, ban on muslims wearing tudung in government places, France?
Fifth, ban on muslims wearing tudung in public, Turkey?
Sixth, jails all islamist opposition as they r terrorist, Egypt?
Seventh, kills and take away muslims lands, Palestine?
Secular only looks good on paper, really really bad outpaper!
Say No to Secular…
Its okay said im like Katak Di Bawah Tempurung, at least im being realistic and talking my hal ehwal under tempurung according to under the tempurung reality. Not like some other ppl, Mcm lembu dicucuk teloqnya according to Kg Attap ppl, dont blame me, blame the Kg Attap ppl
April 6th, 2008 at 00: 34.39
One who makes a wild accusation about the use of a certain term in an inappropriate context has the moral obligation to explain which use of which term in which context is illegitimate or inappropriate.
April 6th, 2008 at 00: 36.17
Sorry, watching soccer lah..tell me what is good about Turkey?
out of topic here, limkamput. But since you are a football fan,i shall answer you in footballing term
Turkey got 3rd in World Cup 2002, whereas, Bolehland could not even make it to the final round of qualifying in Asia zone. Galatasaray from Turkey won the UEFA Cup in 2000, beating Arsenal of England. This is a major achievement for a club from Turkey.
And the most important thing is Turkey football team could easily pwn Bolehland football team anytime
April 6th, 2008 at 00: 36.57
he arque that kelantan is a state and not a country but never arque that it is a good example, right? or is he? never give example of a good scholar state or country but giving excuses. so far im on syncbasher.
keep going guys. i like it…
April 6th, 2008 at 00: 39.24
Lee Wang Yen,
Please go and drink some bakuteh…
then come back with open heart…
and please drop out those out-of-context islamic terms…
if dunno how to use, dont use it blindly…
April 6th, 2008 at 00: 41.37
syncbasher83
Haiya, banyak susah lah mahu bincang sama du. Macam ini la, Kelantan bukan sebuah negara lah. Di Kelantan bilangan bukan muslim sekelingtir shj, jadi tiada masalah lah. Semua orang sana bermesra shj kerana muslim tidak rasa terancam. Kalau bilangan bukan muslim macan selangor atau Perak, lain cerita lah. Jangan selalu ingat ugama itu boleh selesaikan semua masalah di dunia ini. Dunia ini telah beribu tahun beragama lah, tetapi dunia tetap bermasalah. Jangan harap parti politik yang beercorak agama itu lebih alim. Semua sama sahaja, nak kuasa untuk membuat sesuatu. Jadi, tenggok lah juah sikit. I am not indoctrinated in anyway lah, don’t worry about me. You have to worry for yourself.
April 6th, 2008 at 00: 42.01
i mean secular state.. not scholar state..sorry..
April 6th, 2008 at 00: 43.30
syncbasher83
Was there a referendum done that say 55% Malaysian Muslims (whatever order u prefer) want an Islamic state?
Just curious. Just got out of jail, so I’m a bit in the dark on many issues.
April 6th, 2008 at 00: 44.25
One who thinks that he had used certain term at utmost appropriate context has the most moral obligation to explain its legitimate and appropriate! Period!
now show me where the word taqiyya u got from? which verse which surah of quran? and what hapen during wen that word is being used? Period even a muslim primary schooler know this!
April 6th, 2008 at 00: 45.21
PAS had successfully reached out toward nonmuslims but DAP TOTALLY failed to reach on muslims especially among malays. - syncbasher83
Your observation is interesting and could well be correct.
I had lost hope to this current DAP leadership and im calling for YB Lim and YB Karpal Singh to step down to allow a more progressive, tolerant new leadership to take over DAP. Period! -syncbasher83
Rather than call for the resignation of two widely respected politicians you could perhaps tell these two gentlemen how they could win the trust of the muslims in Malaysia.
April 6th, 2008 at 00: 47.07
A Cambridge upstart does what a Cambridge upstart has to do.
April 6th, 2008 at 00: 48.22
rojak,
im so sorry to have confused u. the only thing i can help u is by asking u to directly copy and paste any of my statement above saying “55% Malaysian Muslims want an Islamic state?”
Your sincerity is very much thank you!
April 6th, 2008 at 00: 48.41
Some commentators take great liberty in asserting a certain stance as representing 90% or 95% of DAP supporters (or the people in Malaysia).
This are bold, but unfounded, conjectures.
Let us assume that 90% of the commentators in this blog who have written on issues relating to DAP’s co-operation with PAS hold the view those commentators say they do.
Can we be justified to infer from this that 90% of DAP supporters hold this view?
Before any reasonable representative data has been collected and prior to any responsible statistical survey, it’d be prudent to avoid bold talks about whose view on which matter is the overwhelming majority.
April 6th, 2008 at 00: 51.29
this syncbasher83 is becoming more and more “action” lah. We don’t drink bakuteh lah, we eat. We drink some tiger beer lah, can or not?
April 6th, 2008 at 00: 53.04
Opps ‘…THESE are bold…’
April 6th, 2008 at 00: 56.18
syncbasher83
Thank Q u for bothering to answer my stupid question. I do get easily confused, u know’lah “English better than MM Taib but still ultah”
Pls continue with the debate, I’ll go back to my comic books.
PS: I ask the Q in utmost sincerity
April 6th, 2008 at 00: 56.18
now he arque that since kelantan non-muslim are small percentage so there is no problem. why dont u see it the other way.. wow even though there were small percentage of non-muslim in kelantan but they have the same right as other kelantan people. well taken care and not di anak tirikan/dihalang/ditindas…etc so if small people get the same right, so why other state need to be afraid? there are larger/stronger right?
April 6th, 2008 at 00: 58.32
Sdr. LimKamPut says:
Chinese chauvinism? What Chinese chauvinism? We have never asked for a Chinese Taoist Malaysia, or a Chinese Christian Malaysia. What we are asking for is secular multiracial and multi-religious Malaysia. It is an inclusive ideal where every citizen irrespective of race, religion, and region will someday be treated equally and fairly in this land of ours. If other races or religious groups can’t see eye to eye with DAP’s Malaysian First, then it is they who are racists or religious bigots. It is they who want to impose their way of life and values on others.
Sir, the Muslims have seen the many sins committed by BN which they consider to be a secular government. Therefore to tackle their fear of sins and moral decadence they have to sit down and see how these excesses could be curbed. They have to look for ways to work together for the common good of the people.
We have to move beyond just saying Malaysian First.
April 6th, 2008 at 00: 59.23
Sorry,
… they means the coalition leaders.
April 6th, 2008 at 01: 00.36
limkamput,
haiya manyak susah ar cakap sama lu lar. ini negara islam bukan macam itu iran lar. kelantan buat lain, kedah buat lain lain lah. ikut rakyat masing-masing lah…
itu jakim paksa pukul sama org bukan islam sekali kalo tanya PAS confirm xsetuju. Mana buley paksa sesiapa…
itu kelantan sudah sepuluh taun woo, tngan siapakah dipotong?
semua prinsip negara islam dijalankan secara beransur-ansur dan penerimaan oleh rakyat juga…bukan main paksa wooo
nak minum bakuteh di kota bharu pun senang cari, mana ad susah…
haiya jangan dengar itu org lain cakap, xpayah pergi jauh tengok saja di kelantan lah…
April 6th, 2008 at 01: 06.42
Devilmaster,
Aiyoh, can play football only not good enough lah. Ivory Coast, Nigeria etc also can play lah. Like I said earlier, name me an Islamic state which can be an example for others – in terms civil liberty, economic freedom, rule of law, democracy, prudent economic manag