Malaysia is again at the centre of adverse international publicity despite our tourist promotion of Malaysia as a harmonious and model multi-religious nation and the Prime Minister, Datuk Seri Najib Razak’s new slogan of 1Malaysia.
In the past few days, the world media like CNN and international press have been giving extensive coverage to the government seizure of 15,000 Bibles in recent months because they refer to God as “Allah” raising concerns and fears of religious intolerance in the country.
A consignment of 10,000 copies of the Indonesian-language Bibles which feature the disputed word “Allah” was confiscated in Kuching, Sarawak in September while another consignment of 5,100 Bibles was seized in March.
The root problem of the seizure of these Bibles is the earlier decision taken by the Cabinet to ban the use of the word “Allah” for religions other than Islam, although this is a most unreasonable, divisive and even unconstitutional decision as:
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The term “Allah” was in use long before there was the religion of Islam in the world;
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The term Allah was used to refer to God by Arabic-speaking Christians before Arabic-speaking Muslims existed; and
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Malaysia is probably the only nation where the use of the term “Allah” by Christians to refer to their God is prohibited, whereas its use to refer to Christian God has never been prohibited in many countries in the Middle-East and the Americas.
The confiscation of the Bibles and the ban on the use of the word “Allah” for religions other than Islam is incongruous with and even inimical to Najib’s 1Malaysia objective to give top priority to foster better inter-racial, inter-religious and inter-civilisational relations among Malaysians.
This is a test whether Najib’s 1Malaysia is to be taken seriously and I call on him to ask the Cabinet to revoke its earlier decision taken under previous administrations to ban the use of the word “Allah” for religions other than Islam.
I hope all Cabinet Ministers, particularly from MCA, Gerakan, MIC and the Sabah and Sarawak component parties of Barisan Nasional can take a bold and united stand on this issue to convince UMNO Ministers to support the revocation of the previous Cabinet ban on the use of the word “Allah” for religions other than Islam, as at issue is the very credibility and legitimacy of Najib’s 1Malaysia slogan and policy.
(Speech at Taiping DAP “Road to Putrajaya” thousand-people dinner at Hua Lian Chinese Independent Secondary Hall, Taiping on Sunday, 1st November 2009)
#1 by OrangRojak on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 9:10 am
Is posting broken?
#2 by Ramesh Laxman on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 10:05 am
YB Lim,
Cannot use the word ‘Allah” nevermind lah. There are many other issues that have to ironed out. I hope that opposition will focus on them before it is too late. We must be clear as to what we want Malaysia to be a decade from now and work towards that.
#3 by undertaker888 on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 10:28 am
It seems like everything that starts with the alphabet “A” are banned nowadays…
Altan..ya
Al..h
Abdul Ra..k Baginda
Alcohol
This is getting more like cartoon everyday…D’ope (Homer).
#4 by OrangRojak on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 10:59 am
“more like cartoon everyday”
Those who have not watched Monty Python’s The Life of Brian are doomed to repeat it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_hlMK7tCks
#5 by Yee Siew Wah on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 11:21 am
Seems that Bolehland is encouraging all these holier than thou but good for nothing religious scumbags running the country down the drain. These scumbags are worst than the muslims in the middle east. They thought they know all about Islam.
#6 by k1980 on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 11:32 am
If you do not wish this nonsense to go on, kick out BN in the 13GE! Give a big present to Jib the Joker— make him the Opposition leader in parliament. Let him stick his “1malaysia” up his backdoor
http://themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/opinion/jameschin/42080-how-you-become-a-racist-
#7 by Jong on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 11:33 am
HahHaaha, even religious discussion/lessons in the private of your homes need JAIS’s (Selangor Islamic Religious Council)permission today, don’t know that?
Interestingly, former Perlis mufti, Mohd Asri Zainul Abidin, was arrested at Ampang, KL by JAIS team last night, to be charged today in Gombak East Lower Syariah Court. He was asked to present himself.
Has this country gone to the dogs? Wake up Malaysia before it’s too late!
#8 by sheriff singh on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 11:48 am
Is not broken. Is slow Monday morning. No kopi Jantan yet.
Allah is already in the Bible of several languages and in the other Holy Books. Many different languages and dialects were spoken during Jesus’ time and even well, well before that.
The ancient pagans in greater Arabia then used the word “Allah” when they worshiped their gods. Allah is actually derived from two words ‘al’ meaning ‘the’ and ‘illah’, deity, therefore meaning ‘the (one) God’ .
Semitic languages including Arabic, Aramaic, Hebrew, Syriac etc all used various pronunciations of of “Allah” but they all mean ‘the one God’, the Almighty.
For example, Eloi, Elah, Elahi, Elaw, Elohim (honorific), Eli, Alah (found in many old Bibles) etc etc all means GOD, Allah, the Almighty.
Just as Ibrahim, Evraham refers to Abraham. Benyamin, Ben Amin refers to Benjamin. Yacob, Yacov = Jacob. And Isa, Issa, Yasser, etc means ‘Jesus’. Moshe, Musa = Moses.
So why is “Allah”, no matter how it is pronounced or spelt, but which means ‘the Almighty’ one, an exclusive word to be used for the Muslim God (in Malaysia)?
We Sikhs use “Allah” too. And so do Christians in the Middle East, parts of the Balkans and even in parts of Russia.
Only in 1Malaysia we have this problem of exclusivity. No where else. Not even in Arab lands. Whats our government’s agenda? Didn’t Pak Lah, the Sleepy One, said “OK” but “For Non-Muslims Only”?
#9 by sheriff singh on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 11:52 am
Heck. Moderated again.
#10 by sheriff singh on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 11:56 am
Which means, if approved, it will appear next Wednesday.
#11 by Cinapek on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 11:57 am
Is Malaysia trying to out-islamic the world’s largest Islamic country (Indonesia)? Because if the Bibles originated from there then clearly Indonesia has no problems with the use of the word “Allah”.
Likewise, is Malaysia also trying to out-islamic the Islamic nations where Islam originated such as those in the Middle East?
PM says UMNO is not racist. But while this may be a religious issue, he cannot escape having the people looking at this as both a religious as well as a racist issue.
#12 by Jeffrey on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 12:31 pm
The govt’s restoration of the ban of the use of “Allah” by faiths other than Islam in Feb 09 was, according to then Home Minister Syed Hamid Albar, in deference to the objections by various Islamic groups on grounds that permitting its use would anger Muslims in the largely Muslim-populated country. Cabinet Ministers, particularly from MCA, Gerakan, MIC and the Sabah and Sarawak component parties of Barisan Nasional know that taking a bold and united stand against the Cabinet’s turnabout is useless as the voices of various Islamic groups are given more importance by the UMNO dominant govt than theirs.
Govt is caught in bind, its attempt to portray moderate face of the faith (as well as 1 Malaysia motto) is squarely contradicted by the ban & proposed whipping of Kartika Sari Dewi Shukarno found guilty of drinking beer by the Syariah High Court. Now Malaysia is more like Saudi Arabia. (Bibles found in the possession of visitors to Saudi Arabia are routinely confiscated by customs officials).
#13 by Godfather on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 1:14 pm
This can’t be right. We use the word “Allah” all the time in discussions with our Muslim friends, and sometimes in jest too. Does this mean that we could be charged with using the word ? Does this mean that “insyallah” can’t be used too ? Does this mean that we have to be very clear when we say “Amen” instead of “Amin” ?
#14 by Godfather on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 1:15 pm
In Kit’s blog, the moderator now puts every posting that contains the “A” word under moderation.
#15 by OrangRojak on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 1:17 pm
Isn’t it about time Pakatan Rakyat (or DAP, at least) pooled their IT resources and came up with some sort of common Internet platform? I can’t post a reply to Mist on your HSBB thread – and now it doesn’t even tell me why. Last night it did at least produce a few errors…
There are many things that could be trivially improved in Malaysia, one of which would be the prevalence of crap IT projects. You could make a start here.
#16 by limkamput on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 2:12 pm
Jeffrey would probably say if other country can use the “A…” word, it does not mean Malaysia must do the same. This is no perfect world you know and we can’t get everything we want. We must all accept the imperfection around us.
Tell me anyone, why are we here if we are not here trying to improve things. Or are we here just to write eloquently with knowledge that we acquired while in school or university or the latest book we read.
#17 by OrangRojak on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 2:21 pm
“why are we here”
The TV’s crap and I haven’t got any friends. You?
You seriously think writing here is improving something? Wow. Maybe I should write more ‘sincerely’. Have you got some KPIs I could adopt?
#18 by sheriff singh on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 2:23 pm
And I thought only the BN fellows like to censor but it would appear PR is no better. Should they ever come to power, I think they will censor and moderate everything too.
There were times when I attach a relevant and innocent link and I get moderated. Minus the link, it gets through. The censor board must still be rating postings whether it should be rated for 13 or 18 years and above only or whether it needs parental and big brother supervision and guidance.
Perhaps blogging is getting too big and troublesome for them to handle. Maybe they ought to outsource to Mongolia. They have plenty of free time out there.
So if we don’t like this blog, we could always move on to other more interesting blogs.
#19 by limkamput on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 2:48 pm
Orang Rojak, seriously if you think what we say here does not mean a thing, then i think you shouldn’t be here. Stare at the ceiling if TV is crap. At least you save some energy.
#20 by OrangRojak on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 2:53 pm
For moderation, it’s hard to blame anyone for choosing a dirty word blacklist or an URL whitelist. Despite what the site automation tells us, there probably isn’t a real moderator at all, except for some poor overworked s0d who has a peep every few days or so.
Given that we’re unlikely to sponsor a full-time moderator (I suppose I can only talk for myself) the only other option would be to make the moderation system more transparent. I’m not sure what the problem is with doing that – perhaps someone intimately involved with the site might make a comment on it one day when they’ve got a spare minute.
The site being broken so often (and it’s by no means bad, in comparison with other Malaysian websites) is infuriating for me. I wonder why there isn’t a greater effort to integrate the Pakatan webs – it seems like you could go a long way to presenting yourselves as a single entity just by encouraging your nerds to collaborate. PAS seems to have some good people doing IT for them, DAP seems to have some good artists. Maybe you should get them together.
“more interesting blogs”
I await your list with real hunger! Isn’t this the best one we know? Call me an air-headed idealist, I can dream of something a tiny bit better!
“you shouldn’t be here”
You tak suka, you keluar dari… is it?
#21 by Jeffrey on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 3:03 pm
When (a) one talks of the imperfections around us – for objective of perspectives – it does not mean one accepts at the same time (b) the objective to be complacent and not seek improvement.
It is a deficiency in reasoning (as usual) for Lim Kam Put to view (a) as automatically = to (b)!
So how do you ever hope to understand nuances of more complex issues when a simple expose of (a) is turned and extrapolated to imply (b) without ability to see the distinction?
#22 by homeblogger on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 3:10 pm
Agreed. In fact, I was tinkering with the idea of designing a PR prototype website that integrates the content of component parties into ONE official “voice”, but reality tells me I have neither the resources nor time to do it.
However, I wonder… if PR would just raise RM10 to 20K, they could get a professional site design done. Unless some generous sould could foot the bill. Perhaps it’s time to consider having a full-time team dedicated to this.
It’s really a pain to go from one site or blog to another only to get conflicting information.
#23 by Jeffrey on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 3:17 pm
Can we have from Lim Kam Put some KPIs and examples on what type of writing here constitute “improvement” of things around? Ridiculing what others say is an improvement?
#24 by Godfather on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 3:18 pm
The moderator is not a person, more likely a software programme designed to filter out certain words like “fcuk”, “sh!t”, “All@h”, “@sshole”, “najeeb”
“Alt@ntuya”…..etc
#25 by limkamput on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 3:27 pm
Go back to the thread before this. Precisely, my comments were based on some agenda you are trying to imply. I have never tried to ridicule you – you are too smart to be ridiculed. I just feel that your comments have some secret agenda. It is difficult for me to prove, but it is my job to point this out.
#26 by Jeffrey on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 3:34 pm
//I just feel that your comments have some secret agenda. It is difficult for me to prove, but it is my job to point this out.// – LimKamPut.
I agree that it would be natural and easy to sense a “secret agenda” on that which one cannot comprehend in totality. Don’t worry about it.
#27 by taiking on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 4:10 pm
Oh yeah? So being of the muslim faith is all that it takes to become a bumiputra? There are 6m chinese and (wot?) 2m indians in this country. If all of us were to embrace islam and adopt the malay culture wot would umno do?
Move the goal post of course!
#28 by OrangRojak on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 4:15 pm
“Agreed”
Oh! I could weep with joy!
“Perhaps it’s time to consider having a full-time team”
Or perhaps we could also take the time to recognise that many, many colossal projects are currently being worked on all over the world, part-time, by volunteers who just want to contribute to something better. All the software (including the operating system) I’m browsing this site with has been written for free. It must be millions, if not billions of man hours to write all this stuff, yet much of it was done voluntarily.
The problem is, without a mandate, it would be an empty gesture to collaborate on something like this. You could imagine providing the perfect ‘open government integrated system’, and then your favourite political party (or coalition) would buy a pretty, but ultimately useless one, for gajigaringgits from someone’s brother-in-law in an offshore tax haven somewhere.
If PR intends to be a traditional political coalition, then I expect they’ll have to exactly what homeblogger suggests, and pay the money for a jewel of a website that doesn’t really do anything (bn2008.org.my is a great example of such a site). If they want to appeal to and impress a younger, more tech-savvy generation, then they really should consider going ‘Open’ and tapping into some of the love that’s out there.
The one problem I can see is that the enthusiastic ‘people from the Internet’ might push too hard for features PR aren’t willing to commit to! How do we find out what level of interest exists, and whether PR are interested in taking advantage of it, should it exist in sufficient quantity?
#29 by gofortruth on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 5:23 pm
Why can’t others use the word Allah except the Muslims in Malaysia?
1) UMNO is trying to stir up religious tension in the hope of uniting all the Malays.
2) UMNO is showing to the world that they can still bully & bulldoze their way through the people. They have created jungle law, Kangaroo court & Samseng police in Malaysia.
What a sick international show!
#30 by OrangRojak on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 5:25 pm
Not a single on-topic post from me, but it’s because I agree 100% with LKS! This one is a no-brainer as our fellow humans on the other side of the world would say.
I sometimes wonder if all these pointlessly controversial issues aren’t created just to distract us from really unarguably bad-but-mundane stuff.
#31 by LG on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 5:45 pm
I have only one question to the Government of Malaysia (and including the religious extremist).
Question: Did Allah forbid people of any race or religion (other than Muslim) or country to use the term Allah?
If yes, appreciate if you can quote which part of the Koran mentioned that Allah forbid such thing. Then we say Amen and shall fully support His will and His supreme commandment.
If no, then what the hell the Government of Malaysia is trying to prove? The Government is behaving greater than Allah or the Government is acting as Allah. If Allah didn’t forbid, the Government of Malaysia (and those religionist extremist) also should not forbid.
In fact, this kind of practice of forbidding such term “Allah” is anti-Islamic and may Allah punish these religious hypocrites in the Malaysian Government to the eternal fury hell-fire.
#32 by LG on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 5:52 pm
I have only one question to the Government of Malaysia (and including the religious extremist).
Question: Did Allah (the one and only God) forbid people of any race or religion (other than Muslim) or country to use the term “Allah”?
If yes, appreciate if you can quote which part of the Koran mentioned that God forbid such thing. Then we will say Amen and shall fully support God’s will and His supreme commandment.
If no, then what the hack the Government of Malaysia is trying to prove? The Government is behaving greater than God or the Government is acting as God. If God didn’t forbid, neither the Government of Malaysia (and including the religious extremist) should not forbid.
In fact, this kind of practice of forbidding such term is anti-Islamic and against God. May God punish these religious hypocrites in the Malaysian Government to the eternal fury of hell-fire.
#33 by a-malaysian on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 5:59 pm
Expectations of Najib is very high and he thought that his PR company by the name of ACPCO or something is doing a good job. Siok sendiri and just because he swear on the koran that he did not know or met Altantuya, he is as pure as Allah, that is why no one else can use it.
Najib’s Statements Smacked With Hypocrisy And Stupidity
Malaysia For All
GE 13 – Change The Federal Government No matter what, we must ensure that racist umno bn do not regain the power like they had for over the past fifty two years.
#34 by limkamput on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 6:35 pm
Please don’t try to keep insulting me.
When the author of the previous piece said there are abuses in Malaysia, what is the point of you saying there are worse cases elsewhere? The author and most of us in this blog are interested in the state of affair here – Malaysia, NOT elsewhere, got it? Worse still, why is there a need for you to say perhaps even the champion of freedom and democracy is also not the best example we can draw? What are you trying to insinuate – that Malaysia is not that bad after all? Who do not know that Malaysia is the worst? The issue that Malaysia is not the worst is NOT the issue here. We are interested in the abuse of budgetary processes here and despite the fact that everywhere has it to some extent, we are not satisfied and we want something done. So concentrate what are the areas where the abuses have occurred or highlight some of the solutions you can think of to make Malaysia better. You want KPI, here are some for you. It is not I have poor understanding. Don’t try to keep insulting me. It is you – the master of deception or camouflage.
Even your best friend 888 also has the same impression like mine.
#35 by Jeffrey on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 7:03 pm
Are US examples worse cases? “The author and most of us in this blog are interested in the state of affair here – Malaysia, NOT elsewhere, got it?” You understand what’s perspective? “What are you trying to insinuate – that Malaysia is not that bad after all? Who do not know that Malaysia is the worst?” Worst??? I can go on but you’re wasting everyone’s time with your sterile arguments. Sorry.
#36 by Jeffrey on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 7:04 pm
I am not insulting you. I can’t compete with your insulting yourself by what you say.
#37 by monsterball on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 7:07 pm
Reading the post..all Christians should vote against UMNO….period.
Why simple things made to be so complicated with guys showing how smart they are?
Declare you will vote UMNO out…period.
And these smart guys will say..votes are secret..and start all over again.
Actually some simply love yo ague….cannot win…insult…each other.
These are childish over educated braggarts.
If the cap fits you wear it…but don’t try to insult me..asking for trouble.
#38 by lkt-56 on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 7:29 pm
I tested someone’s suggestion that moderation is done by a software by using the forbidden word and true enough, the post came under moderation. I am going to re-post by removing the forbidden word and see what happens…
Re-post:
I personally do not think that UMNO believes that the word when used in the bible will confuse muslims. I think they made the ruling to tell the people who is in charge.
Frankly I am not the least concerned if the current administration wants to make the word exclusive to Muslims. The point has been made when “Herald” challenged the ruling. So what’s the point continuing this argument? And what is wrong with using “Tuhan”? There are many more important issues to be concerned about.
Frankly I question the wisdom of using this issue to influence public opinion.
#39 by LG on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 7:29 pm
mosterball quote: Reading the post..all Christians should vote against UMNO….period.
Not only that, all people of other religions e.g. Sikh, Hindu, etc should also vote against UMNO. Also the moderate, educated, fair and peace-loving Muslims should vote against UMNO as many practices of UMNO led-Government are unIslamic such as prohibition of such term Al#ah, ISA, corruption, illegal gain of monetary and wealth, bullying tactics, …. a long list, … etc.
#40 by ReformMalaysia on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 7:37 pm
1Malaysia? 1Malaysia…konon!
#41 by ReformMalaysia on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 7:43 pm
As the word “Allah” banned by UMNO’s government, there is no more reason for Sabahan & Sarawakian(where most of the natives and many chinese are Christians) to continue to give mandate to Barisan Nasional….Even the name of God being banned by this rogue government…what else worse than that?
#42 by limkamput on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 8:10 pm
To do justice to myself, it should be “Who do not know that Malaysia is NOT the worst?” No need to talk too much, just answer me point by point what is the point of you raising those nonsensical issues if not to confuse and to divert.
You are just the master of chameleon, camouflage and deception.
#43 by vsp on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 9:01 pm
In Bolehland even Allah is not immune from being hijacked by these scoundrels. They don’t want follow Allah’s commandments but they are quick to misuse Allah’s name to rubber stamp their sins.
#44 by tenaciousB on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 9:08 pm
i wonder why a much more hot topic is not posted in limkitsiang’s blog, like for example the utterance of a BN bacbencher calling for tsu koon and tee keats resignation. also worthwhile adding samy vellu in there too(he’s the worst kind of tunour anyone could ever come across in since the beginning of this world!)
#45 by Jeffrey on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 9:58 pm
“….raising those nonsensical issues if not to confuse and to divert….”
Lim Kam Put, Don’t let your mind wander too much. It’s far too small, like a 7 year old, to be let out on its own. It can get easily diverted and confused. Anyway I am busy, can I just ignore you awhile in the interest of the Blog?
#46 by Onlooker Politics on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 10:54 pm
“Christianity counts some two billion adherents and Islam a billion and a half. It is unlikely that any large numbers on either side will soon convert to the other. The only practical aim for the foreseeable future, therefore, can be peaceful coexistence. But is such a hope realistic?”
The above question has been raised up by Dr. Leonard J. Swidler, who is Professor of Catholic Thought and Interreligious Dialogue at Temple University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, U.S.A. where he has taught since 1966.
According to Professor Swidler, “For 50 years Christian thinkers have been carrying on discussions with representatives of other religions, such as Judaism and Buddhism, and within Christianity itself, between its different branches, such as Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestantism. These dialogues have been very fruitful, and have led to mutual recognition and appreciation. Representatives of all these bodies now meet regularly and attend one another’s events, in ways that once would have been impossible.”
Therefore Professor Swidler brought us to think of the question about the expectable achievement of the dialogue that is to be engaged between Christianity and Islam, “What has been happening in regard to Islam?”
“What has been accomplished, if anything? Have there been any formal discussions between official representatives of the two faiths? Has there been much informal dialogue between interested lay people? Is there any Muslim literature exploring possible commonalities with Christianity? Have there been any unexpected agreements? Are there cases where Christians and Muslims are engaging in common practical enterprises together, such as charitable activities, in lieu of more theoretical discussions? Are there portions of the Muslim world that actively wish to engage in dialogue with Christianity, or is it a one-way street? What are the prospects for the two religions to reach any significant agreement at the present time?”
Perhaps the Christian members of DAP should try to work out a dialogue in good faith with PAS in order to resolve many religious issues that have been unresolvable between Christianity and Islam in the past.
#47 by boh-liao on Monday, 2 November 2009 - 11:55 pm
ALAmak, OK or not to say alamak ah?
#48 by OrangRojak on Tuesday, 3 November 2009 - 12:11 am
Onlooker Politics, your comment makes me wonder:
are ‘Christian members of DAP’ “Malaysian first, [racist category] second, Christian third”, or is there something in between race and religion? I’m just wondering where religion fits in in Uncle Lim’s new Hierarchical Allegiance Ontology (I just thought that up – HAO – good or not?!).
Thank you in advance for upgrading my ignorance. If you’re feeling charitable, perhaps you could explain how ‘Youth’ and ‘Wanita’ are also accommodated in the hierarchy. I previously thought there were separate wings for each of those categories, but how could that be possible if ‘Malaysian’ is first and ‘Race’ second? By my reckoning (depending on where in the HAO religion comes – refer my question above) there ought to be at least 8 separate Youth Wings and 16 Wanita Wings, or perhaps it’s the other way around? And of course there could be many, many more, depending on how many allegiance options there are at each level!
I imagine the HAO chart must make a very splendid poster, but I can’t help thinking things would be administratively simpler if there were only a single allegiance – say “Malaysian”? Thank you once again for your forbearance in this matter, and apologies for the reluctance of my feeble brain to accommodate the latest in political thinking.
#49 by a-malaysian on Tuesday, 3 November 2009 - 1:26 am
My comment:
30 by a-malaysian on Monday, 2 November 2009 – 5:59 pm
is still awaiting moderation. If YB Kit is the moderator, I can understand but if someone else …….
Malaysia For All
GE 13 – Change The Federal Government No matter what, we must ensure that racist umno bn do not regain the power like they had for over the past fifty two years.
#50 by Jeffrey on Tuesday, 3 November 2009 - 7:00 am
///So what’s the point continuing this argument?/// by lkt-56 # 34 on Monday, 2 November 2009.
The reason for continuing the argument when “Tuhan” may be used : the other word has been used since Independence, and even before, without objections from or any offense to any quarter (until recently) when this pre-existing customary usage of a word (still with no intent to offend any quarter) is suddenly proscribed/illegalised. To do that there must surely be a better justification than mere “I think they made the ruling to tell the people who is in charge” – especially against backdrop of much touted religious tolerance & 1 Malaysia boasted here.
#51 by Jeffrey on Tuesday, 3 November 2009 - 7:06 am
It has become a religious tolerance versus hegemony issue (where a pre-existing right to use a word since time immemorial is suddenly prohibited with no reasonable justification perceived in respect of the official position suddenly changed). That’s what Herald & others fighting over.
#52 by k1980 on Tuesday, 3 November 2009 - 9:45 am
What NEP looks like if it is applied to birds—-
http://www.emmitsburg.net/humor/pictures/2009/todays4.jpg
#53 by k1980 on Tuesday, 3 November 2009 - 10:14 am
I suggest that Marina Undau ( http://lucialai.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/marina.jpg ) together with the 15 million or so victims start wearing Tshirts emblazoned with the logo and the words “Favouritism- It Sucks” as in http://www.emmitsburg.net/humor/pictures/2009/todays4.jpg
The sight of millions of Malaysians displaying the NEP fiasco on their Tshirts will make the umno warlords tremble in fear. Anyway, it is much more attractive compared to the stupid 1malaysia finger sign.
#54 by BoycottLocalPapers on Tuesday, 3 November 2009 - 10:36 am
45% of Sarawakians and 28% of Sabahans are Christians. Why are they still supporting UMNO instead of DAP?
Weak selfish leaders like Pairin & Jeffrey is the reason why Mahatahi could bring in illegal Muslim immigrants from Philippines and Indonesia to dilute the high percentage of Christian population in Sabah.
#55 by lkt-56 on Tuesday, 3 November 2009 - 11:53 am
In reply to Jeffrey:
If some stupid politicians think they are big enough to “own A____” then let them continue in their delusion. It is a problem created by their deluded mind.
Why entertain such people in the name of nonsense such as religious tolerance, religious freedom, etc. etc.? It is for this reason that the world is never at peace.
If the Malay bible substitutes every “A” word with a “T” word, any confusion to the readers? Surely it makes sense to move on to more important issues that are truly affecting the livelyhood of the people rather than dwell on upproductive issues that hurts the “egos”.
#56 by ENDANGERED HORNBILL on Tuesday, 3 November 2009 - 12:38 pm
God is not mocked by UMNO’s recalcitrance, as if God needs any defence, ha!
Now just sit back and watch UMNO receiving their comeuppance and retribution from God.
Just can’t stand all those upstarts and nincompoops trying to bare their fists, kris and breasts at God, ha!
This is no laughing matter. When God chooses to strike, not even GUNUNG TAHAN can tahan!
#57 by Jeffrey on Tuesday, 3 November 2009 - 1:55 pm
IKT-56, the problem is that one deflects, accomodates and bends one’s position grounded on principle to relent to some “stupid politicians” pushing their agenda bereft of rational/reasonable justification in violation of our pre-existing rights – if no line is drawn on the sand so to speak – when is this pushing going to stop? Aren’t we going to be accused of being indolent for standing up to our rights, especially pre-existing rights if less than reasonable demands, not based on on what is right but who has got might or the loudest voice, are shuffed down our throats?
#58 by OrangRojak on Tuesday, 3 November 2009 - 1:57 pm
☝
#59 by Jeffrey on Tuesday, 3 November 2009 - 2:12 pm
“…the world is never at peace…” – thats true but the peace purchased by giving in on some important principle affecting one’s rights will be the peace of the grave/cemetry, is that worth it? Though alot of issues are involving “egos” however will you, in principle, submit to hegemony just because it also involves “egos”? Unless one argues that changing that word to ‘Tuhan’ does not affect at all the pre-existing rights of Christian/those of other Abrahamic faiths reading the Malay version of the bible or you otherwise agree, on balance, that its use really could anger Muslims generally or could facilitate proselytization of some unsuspecting muslims contrary to constitution and law of this country.
#60 by Jeffrey on Tuesday, 3 November 2009 - 5:06 pm
OrangRojak is this “?” in #6 the middle finger???
#61 by lkt-56 on Tuesday, 3 November 2009 - 5:21 pm
Looks like “Satu Malaysia” ;)
#62 by OrangRojak on Tuesday, 3 November 2009 - 5:21 pm
Jeffrey, if you have Firefox, you can hold the Ctrl key down and roll the top of your scroll wheel away from you (scroll ‘up’)*, and the character should become clearer. It is the index finger. It is the Unicode character U+261D WHITE UP POINTING INDEX:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_(typography)
Interesting… although now I won’t be able to look at pictures of Najib and his followers without thinking “he’s giving us the Bishop’s Fist”.
I had a quick look (since you asked) and the other fingers don’t seem to be included in Unicode.
*If you prefer to use just the keyboard Ctrl+ and Ctrl- do ‘zoom in’ and ‘zoom out’, Ctrl0 (zero) resets.
#63 by i_love_malaysia on Tuesday, 3 November 2009 - 5:34 pm
Rukunnegara Malaysia
Kepercayaan kepada Tuhan
Allah itu Tuhan, Tuhan itu Allah!!!
Dont play play with True God!!! The True God will know whether we are praying to Him or to the devil even when we are calling His name!!!
I Am Who I Am!!!
#64 by Onlooker Politics on Tuesday, 3 November 2009 - 9:39 pm
“I’m just wondering where religion fits in in Uncle Lim’s new Hierarchical Allegiance Ontology (I just thought that up – HAO – good or not?!).” (OrangRojak)
Generally speaking, religion does not fit in in YB Lim’s secular state political principle. However, the core issue involved in this blog is in regard of the human rights issues, such as issue of whether the Christians have basic human rights to use the word “Allah” freely in the Malay Language or in the English Language in order to address the Christians’ God in whatsoever occasion and at whatsoever place. When the issue of the freedom of using word “Allah” is only concerned with the dispute between the Christian Churches and the Malay Islamic preachers, then a piece-meal approach whereby only the smaller groups of the interested parties will get involved in the dialogue discussion may be a much more viable strategy in order to get the controversy settled in a peaceable and mutually compromise manner.
It will make no sense if I ask for the Confucian followers or the Taoist believers from DAP to go hold a dialogue with the “tok guru” of Islamic religion from PAS in order to find a consensus guideline for accepting the use of the word “Allah” by everybody because both Confucian and Taoist never have to use the word “Allah” to address their respective God or gods!
In Malaysia, only two major religious groups are seriously confronting one another about the freedom of using the word “Allah”, namely the Malay muslims and the Christian Church/Catholic Church. If Malaysians are to expect any solution for resolving the long-lingering dispute between these two religious groups on the “Allah” wording issue, the solution will only be acceptable by many, if not all, when the solution has been given the prior consent by these both groups.
#65 by sltiger on Wednesday, 4 November 2009 - 2:17 am
Just a slogan and nothing more to it, Kit. Just like the word ‘Glokal’ he used couple of years ago. But no body used and it met a natural death. We should not be bothered by Pekan’s 1 Malaysia. We have to know where Private Investigator is before we can consider 1 Malaysia, Kit!
#66 by sltiger on Wednesday, 4 November 2009 - 2:31 am
As aa ardent spiritualist, I assert that the word ‘Allah’ belongs to all Mankind and not to them only. And Najib should prove his sincerity by retracting the earlier statement by the Cabinet and follow up on PI issue.
#67 by OrangRojak on Wednesday, 4 November 2009 - 10:05 am
religion does not fit in in YB Lim’s secular state political principle
Sure or not? I thought race didn’t fit into his political principle – until recently!
the core issue involved in this blog is in regard of the human rights issues
‘Human’ is a bigger set than ‘Christian’, and larger even than ‘religious’. If it’s human rights, it’s of concern to all humans. If it’s ‘Christian rights’, that’s an altogether different issue.
It will make no sense if I ask for the Confucian followers
It makes perfect sense. Mediators are usually non-interested parties for a reason. If you’re having an argument with your wife, what sense does it make to shut you both in a small room together to go over the same old issues until death do you part? You don’t have to enter into a polygamous contract with a marriage counsellor before they can help!
Pretending that a minor human rights transgression is somebody else’s business (remember the cowhead?), or that there is a greater issue at hand (invariably financial – where got price tag on religious vocab?) is tacit permission to erode any and all human rights, as long as it’s done piecemeal.
I think trying to portray the establishment of this externally imposed orthodoxy as a ‘Christian problem’ is counter-productive in the long run. Aren’t Christians concerned about attempts to ban the name of a murdered foreign ex-mistress? I should think they are! Would they claim it’s not their problem because she wasn’t a Christian? That wouldn’t be very Christian, as I understand it! Worse than that, it would be difficult for any reasonable person to explain it in a positive way.
It’s only my point of view, Onlooker Politics. If I believed the cowhead was a matter for all reasonable people, but thought the Christian/A||ah ban was ‘their problem’, I just wouldn’t be being reasonable. Would I?
#68 by Onlooker Politics on Wednesday, 4 November 2009 - 7:41 pm
“If I believed the cowhead was a matter for all reasonable people, but thought the Christian/A||ah ban was ‘their problem’, I just wouldn’t be being reasonable. Would I?” (OrangRojak)
The usage ban on the word “Allah” being imposed on the Christians in Malaysia by BN Government was not only Christians’ problem. Indeed, it is the problem of all Malaysians who are concerned about Government’s encroachment upon the citizens’ civil rights and the freedom of religion as promised by the Federal Constitution of Malaysia.
Unfortunately, most Confucian followers, Taoist believers and Buddhism Practitioners will prefer to take up the position of not making an alliance with either Christians or Muslims. The Confucians, the Taoists and the Buddhists will most likely find that it is against the interest of their own to help argue in this case because basically they don’t believe in Monotheism and they also believe in the spiritual value of burning incense to their deities, which neither Christians nor Muslims will agree to do.
In this case, I believe the Confucians, the Taoists, and the Buddhists will choose a political attitude of “standing at the other side of the river and observe on whether the inferno hazard happened at the opposite side will spread further before hastily crossing over to the other side for offering help in order to protect themselves from getting burnt too soon and too abruptly!”
#69 by OrangRojak on Thursday, 5 November 2009 - 12:13 am
LOL thankyou Onlooker Politics, I feel enlightened.
#70 by abdul on Thursday, 5 November 2009 - 6:39 am
Saya sudah muak dengan UMNO and my own muslim govt. Govt sudah hancurkan kerharmonian negara berbilang bangsa ini. Ramai kawan kristian saya sudah mula mengasingkan diri sebab kerajaan UMNo yang racist ini. Harap2 pakatan rakyat menerajui negara ini dan mengembalikan balik kemesraan yang kita pernah ada sesama rakyat malaysia.
#71 by taiking on Thursday, 5 November 2009 - 9:09 am
By Robert Pigott
BBC News, Religious affairs correspondent, 4 November 2009.
“About two-thirds of Malaysia’s population is Muslim
The Malaysian government has refused to release 10,000 Bibles which it seized because they contained the word Allah to refer to God.
The government, which is dominated by Muslim Malays, claims that the word Allah is Islamic and that its use in Bibles could upset Muslims.
The Roman Catholic Church is challenging the ban in court.
Religion has become highly sensitive in Malaysia, where about two-thirds of the population is Muslim.
Religious minorities have accused the government of undermining their rights.
The government has impounded Bibles before, intercepting 5,000 in March as they were imported from Indonesia.
Church officials say that although the word Allah originated in Arabic, Malays have used it for centuries to refer generally to God, and Arabic-speaking Christians used it before Islam was founded.
The Christian Federation of Malaysia said the religious freedom guaranteed by the Malaysian constitution was meaningless if people were denied Bibles which used their own language.”
I am so not proud of umno and its stupidity.
#72 by OrangRojak on Thursday, 5 November 2009 - 11:27 am
I think relying on the Christian churches (some of whom also burn incense to their deities, OnPol!) to achieve a reasonable outcome in this matter is hopeless. That’s not to mock their efforts – having read some explanations by their members of the relevant points in Malaysian law and tradition, they have my full support in this matter. It’s the reality of the situation – where confused persons believe that democracy means a majority may subject a minority to all manner of deprivations because they are fewer in number, and hence less important.
It’s a pity Farish Noor and his fellows don’t get more explicit support. That ‘two-thirds’ of the BBC report in taiking’s comment above is crushing everything – and it may not even have much basis in fact! I made the 2/3 remark in another forum (a US-based one, topic: HSBB in Malaysian mosques) not so long ago, and a Malaysian answered “I live opposite a mosque. If 2/3 of Malaysians are Muslims, then Malaysia has a population of about 40” – or words to that effect.
I understand the Constitutional position of (some) Malaysians with regards to (one) religion, but I cannot force myself to imagine that every last qualifying Malaysian cherishes the assignment. Even if they do – do they really think with one mind? It is inconceivable! As is so often heard in the rest of the world, I would like to hear from perfectly sensible Malaysian Muslims (or even any Malaysian who would not normally identify themselves with the plaintiff) who think that word-banning is nonsense. I think they are the ones who are most likely to be able to bring a sensible ending to this mess.