by N H Chan
The front page of the Star newspaper of Friday, 17 April 2009 carries this startlingly outrageous decision of the Federal Court. The headline proclaims “Court: Siva does not have right to suspend seven”. The report reads:
PUTRAJAYA: The Federal Court has unanimously ruled that Perak Assembly Speaker V Sivakumar does not have the power to suspend Mentri Besar Datuk Zambry Abd Kadir and six state executive council members from attending the assembly.
It granted a declaration that the seven assemblymen were entitled to take part in all the assembly sittings and to carry out their duties.
Court of Appeal president Justice Alauddin Mohd Sheriff, who chaired a five-man panel yesterday, said the Speaker’s decision to suspend the seven applicants was ultra vires (outside the law) and invalid.
… The other judges were Chief Judge of Malaya Arifin Zakaria and Federal Court Judges Nik Hashim Nik Ab. Rahman, S Augustine Paul and Zulkefli Ahmad Makinudin.
This is a perverse judgement of the Federal Court. It is perverse because it is a decision that was made in blatant defiance of Article 72 (1) of the Federal Constitution which says,”The validity of any proceedings in the Legislative Assembly of any State shall not be questioned in any court”. The judges of the Federal Court have failed the people and the government of this country when they chose to ignore the law of the Constitution of Malaysia. In other words the judges have refused to do justice according to law.
Incidentally, ultra vires does not mean “outside the law”. It means “outside one’s jurisdiction, beyond the scope of one s power or authority”. And we may ask, who is the Federal Court to say what is beyond the jurisdiction of the Speaker when the supreme law of the country says that “the validity of any proceedings in the Legislative Assembly of any State shall not be questioned in any court”.
Don’t these judges realize that they have actually done a disservice to the Government of the day? Perhaps they have never heard of the Taff Vale case.
In 1900 the English House of Lords, which as you know is the highest court in the land just as our Federal Court is the highest court in this country, handed down an outrageous decision which was unpopular to the common people of England. The judges of the House of Lords by their judgment had unwittingly done a great disservice to the Conservative Government of the day because in the general election of 1906 it was toppled by a landslide. The case which was the cause of the fall of the Conservative Government by a landslide was Taff Vale Rly Co v Amalgamated Society of Railway Servants [1901] 1 QB 170, [1901] AC 426, HL. It is best that I let Lord Denning take up the story from his book Landmarks in the Law, Butterworths, London, 1984, pp 119-121:
There was the great Taff Vale case. To understand it, you must know that the trade unions were virtually friendly societies. The members paid their subscriptions into a fund out of which benefits could be paid to members if they were ill or out of employment. Now in the Taff Vale case the railwaymen’s union called a strike at the railway station at Cardiff. The men left work and set up peaceful pickets so as to persuade others not to go to work. The trains could not run, and the company lost money. The railway were advised to bring an action against the union itself, seeking an injunction and damages. The Court of Appeal threw out the action. But the House of Lords, in a startling judgment, overruled the Court of Appeal. They issued an interlocutory injunction against the trade union itself, restraining it from setting up the pickets, and said that the railway company could recover damages which could be enforced against trade union funds. Later, at the trial itself, the damages were assessed at £23,000 and that sum was paid out of the funds of the trade union. £23,000 in 1900. What would that be now?
In the eyes of trade unions, that was an outrageous decision. It meant that the railway company could take all the funds subscribed by the members so as to meet the damages. It meant that, in future, a trade union could never call a strike, else it would be in peril of losing all its funds. It meant virtually the end of trade unions. As G.M. Trevelyan says in his History: ‘It struck at the very heart of trade union action’.
That case had immense political consequences. At the general election of 1906 there came into being a new political party. It was the Labour party. They ran a host of candidates themselves. They pledged complete immunity for trade unions. Many of the Liberal candidates gave the same pledge. The result of the general election was like an earthquake. Liberals had 397 seats. The new Labour party had 50 seats. The Conservatives only 157. It was a sweeping victory for the trade unions.
Parliament immediately passed the Trade Disputes Act 1906. It is probably the most important Act ever put into the Statute Book. It reversed all the judicial decisions against trade unions. The Taff Vale case was overruled. No trade union could there after be sued for damages for any wrongs done by its members. Its funds were unassailable.”
I think the message of the Taff Vale case to our judges of the Federal Court should be clear enough. The electorate may decide, just as the voters did in 1906 England to the Conservative Government, to use the power of their vote to unseat the BN government in the next by-election or general election because they do not trust the judges. Poor Najib our new Prime Minister, it is the judges who have let him down. Unfortunately it would be the Prime Minister who has to carry the baby, but not the irresponsible judges who did all the damage by not administering justice according to law.
To all those judges who think they are above the law, I would suggest that they pay careful attention to the warning by Lord Denning M.R. in Gouriet v. Union of Post Office Workers [1977] 1 Q.B. 729, 761-762:
To every subject in this land, no matter how powerful, I would use Thomas Fuller’s words over 300 years ago: “Be you never so high, the law is above you”
And the law, in the present context, is the Federal Constitution, in particular, Article 72 which states:
72. (1) The validity of any proceedings in the Legislative Assembly of any State shall not be questioned in any court.
(2) No person shall be liable to any proceedings in any court in respect of anything said or any vote given by him when taking part in proceedings of the Legislative Assembly of any State or of any committee thereof.
(3) No person shall be liable to any proceedings in any court in respect of anything published by or under the authority of the Legislative Assembly of any State.
Suppose the Speaker Sivakumar were to ignore the declarative decree of the Federal Court, what then? Clause (2) of Article 72 of the Federal Constitution says that “No person shall be liable to any proceedings in any court in respect of anything said or any vote given by him when taking part in proceedings of the Legislative Assembly of any State or of any committee thereof”. The Federal Court can say anything they like but the Speaker is not liable to any proceedings in any court in respect of anything said or any vote given by him when taking part in proceedings of the Legislative Assembly. The order of the Federal Court seems to me to be a brutum fulmen which in Latin means “ineffectual thunderbolt; (action which is) loud but ineffective”. It reminds me of the words of Horace: Parturient montes, nascetur ridiculus mus which in Latin means “Mountains will be in labour, the birth will be a single laughable mouse”.
The errant judges of the Federal Court should heed the warning of the late Lord Denning, What Next in the Law, Butterworths, London, 1982, p 330:
May not the judges themselves sometimes abuse or misuse their power? It is their duty to administer and apply the law of the land. If they should divert it or depart from it a – and do so knowingly – they themselves would be guilty of a misuse of power.
And he posed this question:
Suppose a future Prime Minister should seek to pack the Bench with judges of his own extreme political colour. Would they be tools in his hand?

#1 by limkamput on Friday, 17 April 2009 - 7:05 pm
It is a wonderful piece, but I think if those judges in the Federal Court can find ways around Artice 72 (1), they too can do the same to 72 (2)? Can Sivakumar ignore the decree? I don’t think so.
#2 by limkamput on Friday, 17 April 2009 - 7:10 pm
I think we don’t need the Taff Vale case or the Sivakumar case to know there is not justice. By now, we must be naive to expect the court to dispense justice in political cases.
#3 by taiking on Friday, 17 April 2009 - 7:23 pm
Come on. More important than separation of powers, one should bear in mind the hierachy of laws. Parliament, State Legislative Assemblies and courts are law making bodies. Laws passed by parliament and state assemblies (i.e. statute laws) would override judge made laws. In this context, parliament and state assemblies are the bigger brothers to the judges. That is why judges never questions the wisdom of parliament and legislative assemblies. They just apply the statute laws as they are passed by the big brothers. In extreme cases they would apply statute laws even if the final result is absurb so long as the wordings of the statute are clear to that effect. Such is the relationship between the courts and parliament or legislative assembly. Is it proper for the judge to question his big bro? It is against the doctrine of power separation. It is also against the jurisprudential standing of the respective body.
#4 by sheriff singh on Friday, 17 April 2009 - 8:33 pm
You can put forth the best of arguements, but it is the judges who decide our fates.
If they, Federal Court judges all, rule that the moon is made of cheddar cheese, despite strong arguements to the contrary, then chedder cheese it is because they have decided so. And the chedder cheese proponents will rule the day. What do you do?
But if a retired Lord President does see the flaws and can put right what are ostensibly wrong, for the well being of the populace, but does not do so, then all is lost. We all just have to live with the injustice.
King Solomon, where are you?
#5 by ShiokGuy on Friday, 17 April 2009 - 9:00 pm
Just a tot…
If PR does belief in article 72, then why bother to defend! Also why Nizar also file something in high court in KL?
I am waiting for the 3 froggie to come to thier right mind and resign and be People’s Hero!!
http://shiokguy.blogspot.com/2009/04/resign-and-be-hero.html
Shiok Guy
#6 by ALLAN THAM on Friday, 17 April 2009 - 9:02 pm
after reading the above piece, I thump my chest and kicking the wall. But what else can say, let and I found the following just to share with:-
“A kangaroo court or kangaroo trial, sometimes likened to a drumhead court-martial, refers to a sham legal proceeding or court. The colloquial phrase “kangaroo court” is used to describe judicial proceedings that, the speaker feels, deny due process rights in the name of expediency. Such rights include the right to summon witnesses, the right of cross-examination, the right not to incriminate oneself, the right not to be tried on secret evidence, the right to control one’s own defense, the right to exclude evidence that is improperly obtained, irrelevant or inherently inadmissible, e.g., hearsay, the right to exclude judges or jurors on the grounds of partiality or conflict of interest, and the right of appeal. The outcome of a trial by “kangaroo court” is essentially determined in advance, usually for the purpose of providing a conviction, either by going through the motions of manipulated procedure or by allowing no defense at all.
#7 by Justitia on Friday, 17 April 2009 - 9:28 pm
I am sure there are many like me who is not at all surprised by the verdict. For me this was a foregone conclusion with the way the recent decisions have been made. What should be one of our finest institutions the judiciary seems to keep spiralling downwards to the gutter and now into the canalization in the sewers.
There is a good reason for the separation of powers. The judiciary is the only branch of government that is not elected but appointed. The Legislative branch has to face the judgement of the people through elections. That is why the Legislative branch and its proceedings are not subject to question in the courts. Otherwise, we will have chaos in our governmental system. The Judiciary is to follow and uphold (interpret) the law – not to make new laws (via precedence) through twisted Spaghetti logic. It’s such a shame that those sitting on the Bench of the highest court in the land do not have the backbone or integrity to do so in this case.
#8 by ktteokt on Friday, 17 April 2009 - 9:32 pm
I suggest YB put forth a motion in parliament tomorrow to abolish the SEPARATION OF POWERS!
#9 by LG on Friday, 17 April 2009 - 9:49 pm
Shame to these biased judges
Nowadays we see that judges have so much “power” that they can overrule the validity of any proceedings in the Legislative Assembly and can bring down the Government of the day.
Something is very wrong even to any layman. Agreed that today’s Malaysian Courts are just “kangaroo” courts. It is so obvious to the general public that these judges are biased and pro-BN/UMNO.
They are guilty of abuse and misused of their power and going beyond their jurisdiction and the scope of their authority. They are not only irresponsible even lawless.
Shame to these judges. Shame! Shame! Shame!
#10 by wesuffer on Friday, 17 April 2009 - 10:20 pm
assembly cant fix to date yet. cos there is not valid MB yet !
MB VS MB still pending in court !
#11 by drchris on Friday, 17 April 2009 - 10:22 pm
It wsa a fateful judgment that has profound effects on the separation of powers between the 3 pillars of democracy.
How can the so-called learned judges come to such a verdict?I think we all know the answer.
Sivakumar must be brave to do the legitimate thing.The people are behind him and that is what matters most.
God bless Sivakumar and the Perak Assembly.
#12 by kyototan on Friday, 17 April 2009 - 11:22 pm
Please wait for the result of the PR MB vs the questionable BN MB case in KL high court. Every Malaysian know danger of non separation of power between parliment,enforcement and judiciary the whole system shall crumble as a result of the 5 decision. What is the point of having election for the formation of state assembly and parliment?
#13 by waterfrontcoolie on Friday, 17 April 2009 - 11:41 pm
The conclusion of the retired judge is clear and loud, BN may win this battle but will lose the war of GE13! By stooping to conquer the new PM will only push the fence sitters to decide faster on the need to change. I believe many out there are still having second thought on the PR Gomen. Many issues seem to be dangling in the air but such underhand tactic will surely swaymany across the fence!
#14 by yyh on Friday, 17 April 2009 - 11:44 pm
gobind,
initiate suit against the parliament speaker who suspended you. see what is their judgement. bet the last dollar that they will kick out your case.
the courts are no longer safe for the masses. its there to ensure BN to remain in power. HOw sad and we must thank Mahatir for the demise the judiciary.
#15 by yyh on Friday, 17 April 2009 - 11:47 pm
YB NH,
i dont think the judges bother anymore about rule of law as under the constitution. their calling is to toe the line set by BN. Its really sad that the judiciary has come to this stage of disrepair and I worry for the future of this country.
#16 by KennyGan on Friday, 17 April 2009 - 11:50 pm
Thank you NH Chan, for writing so clearly and fearlessly. You are a lone beacon that struggles to light the judiciary while a former Lord President whose specialty was constitutional law extinguished the light and darkness came upon the law.
Najib may do well to beware NH Chan’s warning. The people will take revenge in the next general elections.
#17 by boh-liao on Saturday, 18 April 2009 - 12:45 am
NH Chan wrote “Don’t these judges realize that they have actually done a disservice to the Government of the day?”
Very polite. [deleted]
Their perverse judgement will be recorded and used as teaching material in our law schools. Their perverse judgement will also set a dangerous precedent.
Current and future law students will be truly confused by the judgements and biased justice of our judges, who don’t seem to know the law of the Constitution of Malaysia.
Umnoputras and the BN have truly messed up our nation.
#18 by HJ Angus on Saturday, 18 April 2009 - 1:05 am
It is noteworthy that we could have 5 judges all agreeing without even a little dissenting opinions.
Were they under the influence of …..?
Correct, correct or not?
It seems that any event not under their jurisdiction can be summarily decided just because it is the Federal Court?
Of course it does have the backing of the government and that is the basic reason for this judgement.
These judges need to revisit the events of the sacking of the Lord President years ago. If the PR come to power, it will be necessary to evaluate this judgement that is clearly ultra vires.
#19 by monsterball on Saturday, 18 April 2009 - 1:39 am
Who are the ultimate sufferers from all these political battles?
Does UMNO really care?
#20 by Lee HS on Saturday, 18 April 2009 - 2:05 am
“…they themselves would be guilty of a misuse of power.”
Can the case be brought up to MACC for corruption?
This is an outright bully of the voters!
#21 by Jong on Saturday, 18 April 2009 - 2:10 am
The Sultan of Perak Raja Azlan Shah has been keeping his silence since he appointed Zambry on the advice of UMNO. I wonder how he feels watching the on-going constitutional crisis in his state, and how it affects his State and loyal subjects – Perakians?
As a former Lord President, how come he is not speaking up whether those judges are abusing their position? I am sure his loyal subjects – Perakians are in desperate need of HRH’s guidance to enlighten them on the best way to solve this constitutional crisis, no?
#22 by sheriff singh on Saturday, 18 April 2009 - 4:48 am
The people wait in anticipation to see what those who have the power to do the right things do or not do.
Then it will become clear for the people’s where their respect for these people should be.
Honour, respect, loyalty, admiration, all have to be earned by everyone.
Will Perak now become a failed state? Will recent events permanently blot and stain its history? Who will be remembered as being responsible for it? How will these events be reported and recorded in History books and Law books?
Yesterday evening, a friend passed this comment : “In 1988, 5 Supreme Court Judges did the right things and were sacked. In 2009, 5 Federal Court Judges did the wrong things and are retained. We have indeed made much “progress” over the past 21 years. Right is right. Wrong is wrong. There’s are no two ways about it.”
#23 by ringthetill on Saturday, 18 April 2009 - 6:21 am
“Alamak. Ini Malaysia. Kita boleh buta sesuka hati. Who cares what about principles, lawliness and what the rest of the world think of us.”
Yes, that may be true. But then you have to put on blinkers and not care if we are part of the modern world community. There are certain standards of behaviours to conform to and basic human rights of citizens is one of them.
How are we going to reconcile narrow-minded communal thinking and the need to ensure all citizens are afforded fair treatment, equal standing and free choice.
Suhakam’s rating and conformity to the Paris Principles will be one big nut to crack for the BN goverment regime. I sincerely hope that Malaysia goverment will pass this test.
#24 by Jeffrey on Saturday, 18 April 2009 - 7:45 am
Taff Vale Rly Co case is different from Sivakumar vs Zamry & 6 others case; Malaysia is no 1906 England, neither are Malaysian electorate similar to English electorate for any lesson to be drawn from the precedent of Taff Vale Rly Co decision cited by Lord Denning!
No Sir, if the highest court could, by wrong decision – wrong as in being contrary to people’s wishes or ordinary understanding of the law of the land – bring down a government (as in England in 1906), it might probably not happen here : likelier, it is always the government (Executive) that brings down the highest court of the land (rather than the other way around)…as in 1988!
NH should know that. Justice N H Chan remarked in Ayer Molek Rubber Co Case (about judicial corruption): “All is not well in the House of Denmark.” Now NH was no Hamlet (“Something’s rotten in the state of Demark”), a reference to the state, as in country. NH obviously referred to the courts rather than the state. His famous quote “All is not well in the House of Denmark” was an oblique reference to the judiciary since the courts then (at the time of Ayer Molek Rubber Co Case) were housed in the House of Denmark along Jalan Ampang, Kuala Lumpur.
It is courts’ repute of independence from executive interference that were brought down by Executive : seldom the government of the day brought down by the courts’ disputable decisions. :)
#25 by ALLAN THAM on Saturday, 18 April 2009 - 8:21 am
This world approaching self destruction due to the deteriorating moral value, we have seen the collapse of the financial structure also due this moral value. The greed that people profess. The lack of accountability has contribute to the sickness of this modern world.
At our shore, we have more than that. The tainted judiciary has making us closing to dictatorship. The irresponsibility of the executive and its influence over the judiciary and on the some tune the lack of will power of those sitting and mending the judiciary has make our judiciary corrupted morally and materially.
The tainted judiciary has started with the time of the OLD HAT and it has never recover as the above case has proved it again.
#26 by lopez on Saturday, 18 April 2009 - 9:05 am
sad and sorry state of affairs in bolihland….
the sinking boat is entering uncharted waters and we allow clowns to steer the boat.
no way i see you at GE13…if we can reach that way.
#27 by penang308 on Saturday, 18 April 2009 - 10:07 am
I have said it long time ago that country’s Constitution is DEAD!
Our Constitution is NOTHING but a piece of paper for our univercity under graduate to argue about when they are in univercity, other than that…..IT IS DEAD!
What even SHAMEFUL is that the BN now OPENLY RAPE THE DEAD BODY(the Constitution)!
For GOD’s sake, RESPECT THE DEAD!
#28 by Toyol on Saturday, 18 April 2009 - 10:34 am
Our beloved Malaysia has become the land of lawlessness…thanks to UMNO/BN. If we want to see a glimmer of a better future for our children, we MUST vote them out and keep them out! This ultimately is the only way we can save our country.
#29 by DAP man on Saturday, 18 April 2009 - 10:43 am
Thank You NH Chan for this patriotic piece. You could have kept quiet in your retirement but you stuck out neck out for te sake of truth and justice. May oter judges follow your steps.
You have shamed the Federal Court – the judges (not one but five of them) have behaved as though they have never been to law school. They have brought shame upom themselves, their families and the country.
NH Chan the coutry loves you. God loves you.
#30 by taiking on Saturday, 18 April 2009 - 11:11 am
If gobind were to apply for review of his suspension, would the same federal court throw its hands up and say, “But mr applicant sir, with the greatest respect to your right there is really nothing we can do to help you.” “The constitution says so in clear terms.” And would that same court have the cheek to add: “We agree entirely with the extra-judicial opinion of the ex-court of appeal judge Dato NH Chan.”
Well of course, this is just a personal reflection. It is not intended to belittle the Federal Court of Malaysia nor indeed any judges in the country.
#31 by Jeffrey on Saturday, 18 April 2009 - 11:20 am
There are two distinct issues here – not to be confused: (A) whether Datuk Zambry Abd Kadir and his 6 cohorts could be and were validly appointed by Royal fiat to Perak State Assembly as the MB and state executive council members respectively in first instance ;(B) whether Speaker Sivakumar could later suspend Zambry and the 6 from attending the state assembly in non recognition of their appointment.
Article 72 (1) of the Federal Constitution, according NH Chan, provides that “the validity of any proceedings in the Legislative Assembly of any State shall not be questioned in any court”.
NH Chan’s argument here (relating to issue B above) is that Speaker Sivakumar’s suspension of Zambry and the 6 was an integral part of proceedings in a Legislative Assembly – and that the validity of such suspension being “part of proceedings in the Legislative Assembly” could not be questioned, much more struck down by the Court by reason of article 72(1) of Constitution…
This argument may be rebutted: the validity of proceedings in the Legislative Assembly cannot be questioned by courts only IF the Legislative Assembly were PROPERLY and legally constituted at the time such proceedings were taken.
Was the Perak State Assembly properly and legally constituted at the crucial time Speaker Siva – purporting to act on behalf of such an assembly – decided to suspend Zamri and the 6?
Now BN supporters would say “no” because Zamri and the 6 (though validly appointed by Perak Ruler) were excluded from the Perak State Assembly when Speaker Sivakumar’s decision to suspend Zamri and the 6 was taken.
PR’s supporters would of course demur: No, they would say, implicitly of the view that Perak Ruler could not validly appoint Zamri (and from there Zamri of the other 6) earlier.
Challenging the validity of a legislative Assembly, whether its properly constituted is a thing separate and a part from challenging validity of proceedings and deliberations of an Assembly whose manner of being constituted is otherwise accepted bgy all as valid and not in contention.
Federal Court is not going against article 72(1) of Constitution if it invalidated Sivakumar’s suspension decision on grounds that it emanated from a Perak Legislative Assembly that was not properly constituted at the time of Siva’s decision by virtue of exclusion of Zamri and the 6!
One can see here all problems begin ultimately stems from issue (A) above – whether Royal fiat appointing Zamri as MB was valid which in turn caused Zamri as MB to appoint the other 6. This issue A is cardinal because it is the first cause that led Speaker Sivakumar to take the second course of suspending Zamri and the 6. Here Federal Court (impugned by NH Chan) had to decide on (B) before (A) had been decided. To use a homespun analogy, it is like looking at the Cart first before the Horse is looked at when asking whether whether the carriage would run its course with the Horse supposed to pull the Cart!
Bottomline, not everyone is the Lion of Jelutong who would dare take the Bull by the horns or rather shall I say “Horse” by its ears (Issue A) and call a spade a spade in fear of being belled “derhaka”. Taking on the Federal Court on issue B -as what NH Chan appears doing- seems lesser of risks (on balance) though I suspect Federal Court’s decision on B “ukltra vires argument) is likely defensible on a standalone basis – depending on the first issue (A), which, well, it will be heard and decided soon by the courts, which PR already preempted outcome by fielding and helping Mohd Nizar win Batu Gantang parliamentary seat. :)
#32 by kowtim on Saturday, 18 April 2009 - 11:23 am
In principle, public bodies derive their authority from Parliament and ultimately from the electorete, and it is not for the unelected judges to step into their shoes ( per Laws LJ in R v Secretary OF State ex p Mahmood (2001) ). Same for legislatures. After Adorna nothing suprises me.
#33 by DAP man on Saturday, 18 April 2009 - 11:29 am
A 5-man bench of the Federal Court of Malaysia has ruled that the sun rises in the west and that it revolves round the earth.
It has also ruled that Speaker Sivakumar is wrong to claim that the sun rises in the east or that the earth is round.
It added that Fake MB Zambry is right to claim that the earth is flat.
#34 by Jeffrey on Saturday, 18 April 2009 - 11:45 am
Nicolaus Copernicus escaped brunt of persecution only by delaying publishing his views that challenged old sacred theory of universe (earth centre of Universe with sun revolving around it). His other ardent and passionate adherent Galileo was imprisoned and humiliated, and worst still Giordano Bruno was burned alive as a monster of impiety!
The truth my friend is that no one practical cares a hoot about truth. There are only vested interests. Truth is but an ophan and most time a humble servant for vested interested – to be manipulated and interpreted in service but never in derogation of vested interest.
It happens throughout history. The persecutors and the persecuted may be of whatever religious belief, race, colour and creed but they are all sharing same denominator and divide throughout history: the former defend their vested interest, the latter are outsiders in challenge iof the existing order that preserves that vested interests, both side s interpreting the truth or the law to suit their respective argument and positions! :)
#35 by limkamput on Saturday, 18 April 2009 - 12:31 pm
Jeffrey, you are a typical wannabe judge. I think you should be one of the five Federal Court judges to provide a more encompassing and persuasive judgement to an otherwise nonsensical judgement.
Was the state assembly properly constituted when the decision was made to suspend the six? Come on, how many ways you want to split the hair? Wasn’t Sivakumar the properly appointed speaker of the assembly when the decision was made? What then is the definition of the assembly? Does a physical building matter? To me, an assembly is a congregation of assembly men and women, met at an appointed time, duly consider the issue and made decision thereof. Does it matter the six were legally appointed when the assembly said they were not legally appointed? You see, I too, can argue like a wannabe.
I think it is pointless to argue further. You lost the bet with me, period. You may be very eloquent, but you are naïve and sometimes simpleton. Can’t you see the courts and judges have always made the decision first and then look for reasons to substantiate that decision. The reason for PR to go to court is to show how ridiculous and desperate UMNO/BN and their apparatus are, not that they expect a fair decision. You, on the other hand, have repeated expected a fair and legally sound decision and have in fact even argue how the decision could be even fairer or more technically sound. I don’t judge you simpleton and naïve for nothing. Wise up.
#36 by DAP man on Saturday, 18 April 2009 - 12:57 pm
limkamput 1 Jeffrey 0
Well argued limkp. I did not waste to waste my time arguing with his gobbledygook. I am happy you did.
#37 by frankyapp on Saturday, 18 April 2009 - 1:05 pm
” Don’t these judges realise that they have actually done a disservice to the government of the day ” says N.H.Chan.Well guys,like I use to say that hunters do not set trap to trap themselves and Mr.Chan has provened correct in this case. Look guys who appointed these judges (traps) ? Who are the hunters in this case,the answer is umno/bn, 100 % sure,right guys !.Even through Article 72 (1) says ” the validity of any preceeding in the legislative assemby of any state SHALL NOT be question in any court ” but these judges {traps} still said that the Perak speaker MR. Siva does not have right to suspend seven .Why because the seven were umno/bn as simple as that. If for instance the SEVEN were PR, the decision would have been the opposite. Hence guys, as long as umno/bn is the hunter,anyone,innocent or not,these traps have no ears or mercy for you. Perhaps we can put to test ,to see actually these traps (judges) real colors in the federal parliament,say when an opposition is suspended by the speaker,put this challenge to their (traps/judges) faces .And watch guys .Let’s see whether they are doing a dissevvice to the government of the day or obeying like loyal haunt dog service to it’s masters
#38 by Jeffrey on Saturday, 18 April 2009 - 3:12 pm
And Lim Kam Put, I of course have no problem at all in being adjudged by you as a “simpleton and naïve” and would be surprise if it were anything otherwise.
#39 by Jeffrey on Saturday, 18 April 2009 - 3:15 pm
“I think it is pointless to argue further.” – Lim Kam Put.
I am in total agreement because I too have no comprehension what you are talking about though any connection between your perception of unreality of what I said and mine, yours, is purely coincidental.
#40 by Jeffrey on Saturday, 18 April 2009 - 3:19 pm
Correct, no flibbertijibbet should waste time arguing with gobbledygook. :)
#41 by Jeffrey on Saturday, 18 April 2009 - 3:36 pm
“Was the state assembly properly constituted when the decision was made to suspend the six? Come on, how many ways you want to split the hair? Wasn’t Sivakumar the properly appointed speaker of the assembly when the decision was made?” (Answer : nothing to do with Sivakumar being properly appointed speaker. The matter is whether there was a properly constituted assembly). “What then is the definition of the assembly? Does a physical building matter? To me, an assembly is a congregation of assembly men and women, met at an appointed time, duly consider the issue and made decision thereof” (Answer – no one is saying assembly was not properly constituted if it did not hold meeting within physical building, and held it under the tree. Why raise something irrelevant here? Argument is that assembly was not properly constituted (from BN’s supporters’ standpoint) because it excluded Zamri and 6 considered properly appointed by Perak Ruler though those unhappy with the overthrow of Perak state govt would view Assembly, at time of Siva decision, properly constituted even if it Zamri and 6 were excluded, the reason being that that they were not properly/constitutionally appointed to their positions by Royal fiat and hence had no claim to a place in the Assembly). Suffice to say, whether and which side is correct, will depend on the answer to the first issue (issue A) yet to and will soon be decided by the courts – ie whether Zamri was validly appointed MB by Perak Ruler and tyransferred power without conceding to PR’s Mohd Nizar’s request for dissolution of Perak Legislative Assembly. I wonder whether this is too hard for Lim Kam Put to understand or he is too emotional to understand it.
#42 by limkamput on Saturday, 18 April 2009 - 4:08 pm
Wannabe, I wonder why it is so hard for you to understand. What the heck are you talking about whether or not the MB and the six are legally appointed when the assembly has decided that they are illegal? Using your stupid (A )and (B) arguments, there is no need for “A” if we have a valid assembly making decisions and under Article 72(1) of the Federal Constitution “…. shall not be questioned in court”, got it wannabe.
Why only answered two of my questions. What about this one: Does it matter [the MB] and the six were legally appointed when the assembly said they were not legally appointed? Please go back to the basic tenet of democracy and people’s rule. If you start imagining power lies elsewhere when there is none, you are no difference from those nincompoop judges. Chi sin lah talking to you. Sorry, have to use hollow sophistication on you again.
#43 by KennyGan on Saturday, 18 April 2009 - 6:28 pm
Let’s turn the discussion to something more useful. What are PR’s options? When the Assembly reconvenes, Sivakumar is still the speaker and Bn’s first order of business is to remove him. Can Sivakumar refuse to allow the motion to remove him?
#44 by Jeffrey on Saturday, 18 April 2009 - 6:54 pm
//Does it matter [the MB] and the six were legally appointed when the assembly said they were not legally appointed?// – Lim Kam Put
I hope you understand yourself.
#45 by Godfather on Saturday, 18 April 2009 - 7:05 pm
What NH Chan is trying to tell us is that with these clear infringements of the Federal Constitution by none other than the highest court in the land, who on earth would trust this country’s justice system ? Fine, it is all we have, but if we can’t get justice then we should be investing elsewhere, perhaps even planning on migrating elsewhere. A gross lack of trust of the Federal Court’s impartiality would ultimately hurt the looters at BN because the rakyat will wake up at the next GE and agree that the only way to change the Federal Court is to eliminate the ruling coalition once and for all.
#46 by Jeffrey on Saturday, 18 April 2009 - 8:37 pm
BN intends (in wake of Federal court’s decision) to immediately table a motion of confidence on Zambry Abd Kadir as menteri besar to legitimise his command of the majority in the house. For this to happen the State assembly must sit/convene – not only to pass vote of confidence on Zamri but to sack Siva as Speaker.
There’s another element : if Assembly were not convened by 13th May 09 – the end of a 6th -month deadline since the last assembly was convened in November 2008 – the Perak Legislative State Assembly will (by procedures) be automatically dissolved and fresh elections will have to be called.
So what PR /Sivakumar will be trying to do is to use all kinds of procedural & peremptory obstacles to delay the convening of assembly beyond the cut off date of May 13, and meanwhile figure out what to do if Perak Ruler orders it to be convened.
“Let’s turn the discussion to something more useful. What are PR’s options?” – KennyGan at 18:28.07. Well one or two are on going another may be in pipeline for examples:
· Sivakumar has already suspended the legislature’s secretary Abdullah Antong Sabri for insubordination in issuing a notice to convene the state assembly on May 7 without his knowledge and appointed Mohd Misbahul Munir Marduki to replace Antong Sabri as the secretary.
· Then there is a procedural objection: the proposed sitting on 7th May in Antong Sabri’s notice seems not in compliance with the required 14-day notice to the state assemblymen for convening assembly.
· Even if the 2 above options were somehow circumvented and for some reason a sitting of Perak State Assembly were convened on 7th May or any subsequent date (before 13th May), Speaker Sivakumar may, as last resort, adjourn the assembly sine die (indefinitely) as soon as the house sits simply on basis that the Speaker did not want the sitting held. [Constitutional professor Shad Saleem said there was once a case in India like that and it might be cited as precedent so that constitutional crisis continues beyond threshold date of May 13]. If adjourning the assembly sine die (indefinitely) sounds unreasonable then at least adjourn it until the other court case between Zamri & Mohd Nizar having bearing Zamri’s status as MB is finally disposed.
Lets not be forgotten that the Federal Court’s decision only ruled that Perak Assembly Speaker V Sivakumar does not have the power to suspend Zambry and 6 state executive council members from attending the assembly. The Federal Court did not rule that Perak Assembly Speaker V Sivakumar does not have the power of adjournment [whether sine die (indefinitely) or at least until the other court case is disposed off]. Speaker Sivakumar’s decision to adjourn is not therefore not construable as defying the Federal Court’s recent ruling as to make it a contempt of court. Then again some people here will accuse me of “splitting hairs”.
#47 by Jeffrey on Saturday, 18 April 2009 - 8:42 pm
In last para – …”Speaker Sivakumar’s decision to adjourn is not therefore construable as…” No double negatives.
#48 by OrangRojak on Saturday, 18 April 2009 - 8:56 pm
we should be investing elsewhere, perhaps even planning on migrating elsewhere
I think that’s their plan for you.
#49 by limkamput on Saturday, 18 April 2009 - 9:13 pm
BN can do whatever it wants to claim legitimacy. The PR can do whatever possible to delay the claim from taking effect. BN with all the apparatus at its disposal will win. It may have “legal legitimacy” but no moral decency and authority to govern, period. It is so funny, we expect our national leaders to be morally right and have principles. Looking at events being played out, they are so “chow kar” even the worst of majong player has better principles.
Jeffrey, your last posting was quite good in terms of PR creating more delay and kicking up more dust. That is all.
#50 by Loh on Saturday, 18 April 2009 - 9:18 pm
///To all those judges who think they are above the law, I would suggest that they pay careful attention to the warning by Lord Denning M.R. in Gouriet v. Union of Post Office Workers [1977] 1 Q.B. 729, 761-762:
To every subject in this land, no matter how powerful, I would use Thomas Fuller’s words over 300 years ago: “Be you never so high, the law is above you”///
The five judges acted as if they were the law, or on behalf of the powers-that-be who thought that since he could make law by passing them in the parliament at will, he was above the law.
The civil servant appointed by the government to arrange for elections and by-elections in the country had the duty to ensure that for by-elections vacancy should exist, according to the declaration of the authority vested with that authority, has taken the duty to verify as the derived authority to decide, and the judges in federal court held that view, then we can conclude that the court is the servant of the powers-that-be. What is surprising is that they were willing to stake their reputation as learned judges to satisfy a minor political game of the new emperor. Everybody has his price, and in this case, the price could not be very high.