DAP boycott Kuala Terengganu by-election over hudud?


Most intriguing.

MCA has not given up.

The stance of the MCA President Datuk Seri Ong Tee Keat is being echoed by his underlings with the MCA leadership continuing to plug the line that the DAP should boycott the Kuala Terengganu by-election over PAS agenda on hudud.

Of course, no indication that MCA would boycott the by-election although there is no renunciation by the UMNO leadership of a series of hegemonistic agendas, whether the “929 Declaration” that Malaysia is an Islamic state or “ketuanan Melayu”.

Forty hours to nomination in Kuala Terengganu by-election on Tuesday morning.

Meanwhile, let the blogosphere respond to the MCA stance – for or against, the pros and cons, merits and demerits as to whether DAP should boycott Kuala Terengganu by-election over PAS agenda on hudud..

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  1. #1 by Lee Wang Yen on Monday, 5 January 2009 - 7:07 pm

    Undergrad2 suggests that if DAP quits PR, the question of DAP’s victory to form the next federal government in coalition with other parties does not arise.

    Again, he doesn’t really understand what he writes.
    Since I’ve been suggesting that DAP forms a third coalition with parties committed to secular democracy, his comment in response to my suggestion should be interpreted in this light.

    If DAP quits PR and from PD, does it mean that DAP and its PD partners will not have any chance to wrest control of the federal government? If the answer is ‘No, it doesn’t', the question still arises. If the answer is ‘Yes, it does,’ the question still arises.

    Perhaps he thinks that DAP and its PD partners will CERTAINLY have no chance to wrest control of the federal government if it quits PR. If he also thinks that a certain question does not arise if a particular answer is guaranteed, then his statement makes sense.

    However, there are two serious problems with the suggestion that if DAP quits PR, the question of DAP’s victory to form the next federal government in coalition with other parties does not arise.

    The first has to do with the suggestion that a certain question does not arise if a particular answer is guaranteed. The second problem has to do with the particular claim.

    1. A true solution to a mathematical puzzle is always guaranteed by logical necessity. But the fact that a particular answer is guaranteed does not mean that the question stated in that puzzle does not arise.

    2. There is no reason to think DAP will CERTAINLY fail to wrest control with its PD partners if it quits PR. He may think that DAP will most probably fail, but that’s a different story.

  2. #2 by m.hwang on Monday, 5 January 2009 - 7:18 pm

    so Lee Wang Yen, (sorry I no speak good English…) after you write so much should DAP boycott KT by-E or not over the Hudud issue?

  3. #3 by Lee Wang Yen on Monday, 5 January 2009 - 7:20 pm

    Undergrad2′s shoulder analogy capitalises on a confusion between identity (‘sameness’) and compatibility or between incompatibility and difference (hence the focus on the shoulder with the same colour and shape).

    Working with a party that does not clash with our own party’s fundamental ideology does not mean that we can only work with a party that share the same ideology.

    A socialist democratic party may have some fundamental ideologies that are different from those of another party led by liberal and progressive Muslims. But as long as these different ideologies are fundamentally compatible, there is no problem in working as coalition partners.

    Even on pragmatic considerations, there is no reason to think that parties with fundamentally incompatible ideologies can work effectively in ruling a country as coalition partners.

  4. #4 by Lee Wang Yen on Monday, 5 January 2009 - 7:22 pm

    opps.. ‘…suggesting that DAP FORM a third…’

  5. #5 by Lee Wang Yen on Monday, 5 January 2009 - 7:23 pm

    oops… ‘… a party that SHARES the same…’
    sorry

  6. #6 by stcy81 on Monday, 5 January 2009 - 7:27 pm

    We know from the fact that under Pakatan Rakyat, all parties are working hand in hand, and as a respect to others party members, they do have an agreement to seek advice or consensus on topic related to the party;in this Hudud thingy, we knows PAS can not implement this without agreement from others party members. But what the heck! Hudud or not Hudud, if they really implement it, as a citizen, we can always vote them out in the next election, but if we choose the wrong party (in this case is BN), then we will continue to suffer corruption practices, racist remark, and all soft of things from this BN government… this is, obviously not what we want! Furthermore, we knows our DPM used to lead the rally in 1987 against others races, he was the one who even lift the swords and swear to kill others races who challenge the privilege of the Bumi (although he manage to escape the operasi Lalang!)…even though now he is making promises and promises to the Chinese, and Indian community in the media to tell how good he is to the Chinese and Indian Community, the question is, ‘can we trust him, still?\ I guess it is NOT for me. Lets forget about Hudud and really work on winning this election!!!!!

  7. #7 by undergrad2 on Monday, 5 January 2009 - 7:36 pm

    You wish your assumptions would fit snugly into a universal equation. There are always assumptions to begin with and it is trite to have to point out the validity of the analysis would depend on the validity of those assumptions.

    Your assumption is that this new coalition would be filled by breakaway elements of the MCA and MIC. I challenge the validity of that assumption. Know why?? Among others and on this issue, Anwar is a pragmatist and not an idealist. He knows that to split Malay votes is not the way forward – at least for him. Talk of ideological differences and an ideological approach when the country is at a cross roads, for him is an exercise in futility.

    There is no pinhead solution here.

  8. #8 by undergrad2 on Monday, 5 January 2009 - 7:45 pm

    If DAP were to break away from the coalition now, it would destroy the chance of any future electoral alliance between DAP and PKR. Through the process of attrition, and in the long run, new electoral alliances may form between yet to emerge political parties.

    But the opposition does not have the luxury of time.

  9. #9 by Lee Wang Yen on Monday, 5 January 2009 - 7:45 pm

    You were to busy labelling my proposal as ideological and have missed my repeated challenge: Are there are good reasons to think that, EVEN ON PRAGMATIC CONSIDERATIONS alone, that parties with fundamentally incompatible ideologies can work together effectively to rule a country?

    DAP’s departure from BA in 1999 (if I remember the year correctly) might not be completely motivated by ideology. The pragmatic infeasibility of working with PAS might have played a major role.

  10. #10 by Lee Wang Yen on Monday, 5 January 2009 - 7:46 pm

    oops… ‘…TOO busy…’

  11. #11 by undergrad2 on Monday, 5 January 2009 - 7:52 pm

    Lee,

    Continue to live in a world of equations and logical reasoning and philosophical what-have-you but politics is not for you. You are like the economist who depends on long run assumptions to the exclusion of everything else.

    But in the long run, we will all be dead!

  12. #12 by Lee Wang Yen on Monday, 5 January 2009 - 8:03 pm

    I don’t think your economist analogy is correct. While I’m not sure whether an economist depends on long held assumptions to the exclusion of everything else, philosophers certainly do not. No, philosophers are ‘notorious’ for their fondness of questioning and challenging assumptions.

    I’ve been identifying and challenging assumptions here. For example, I challenged the claim that an opposition to Islamic state was equivalent to Islamophobia. I’ve just challenged your assumption that my proposal only had merits on ideological grounds. There are many other examples.

    Why think that those who do not examine their assumptions will fare better in evolution? Examination of long-held assumptions is an important factor that has contributed to the advancement of modern science.

  13. #13 by undergrad2 on Monday, 5 January 2009 - 8:04 pm

    Giodfather to take over the baton from me. Breakfast.

  14. #14 by undergrad2 on Monday, 5 January 2009 - 8:06 pm

    “While I’m not sure whether an economist depends on long held assumptions to the exclusion of everything else…” Lee

    Obviously you were never a student of economics. It is long run and not long ‘held’ assumption.

  15. #15 by undergrad2 on Monday, 5 January 2009 - 8:09 pm

    Long run as opposed short run.

  16. #16 by Godfather on Monday, 5 January 2009 - 8:35 pm

    “Long run as opposed short run” reminds me of this rather blatant advertisement on the radio by some mutual fund association about investing for the long term – with short term not being important. Tell that to those who happen to need retirement funds right now, when global markets have dropped between 30 – 70 pct, and some funds have even stopped the right to redemptions.

    Anyway, I decline your offer to take over the baton in discussions with a theoretician. Let others talk theory with this neophyte.

  17. #17 by undergrad2 on Monday, 5 January 2009 - 8:37 pm

    Lee,

    Ever played chess? There is no such thing as the right move, the ‘right’ move for you would depend on the move made by the other player – dynamic as opposed to static analysis.

  18. #18 by Godfather on Monday, 5 January 2009 - 8:44 pm

    All I can do is to repeat my earlier post where I said that only two commentators – chengho and the president of the new third force Lee – have asked for the boycott of the KT by-election. President Lee then immediately said that he did not call for a boycott of the KT by-election, but that he did call for DAP to exit PR. How a person who can enter Cambridge cannot understand that the DAP exiting PR has the same consequence as boycotting the by-election is beyond me.

    However, let us humour him. Let us take his word that he never called for a boycott of the by-election. So that leaves chengho as the only person who has called for a boycott.

    End of discussion on the boycott, Kit ?

  19. #19 by undergrad2 on Monday, 5 January 2009 - 8:52 pm

    If all it takes to win a game of chess is good mathematical skills, the Deep Blue would never have been defeated by Kasparov in 1996. Kasparov was defeated by a newer version of Deep Blue in 1997 but IBM cheated and had the computer dismantled soon after the ‘victory’.

  20. #20 by alaneth on Monday, 5 January 2009 - 8:59 pm

    I told you guys before the last tsunami GE2008 that I am a DAP supporter & also PKR but not a PAS supporter. On Pakatan Rakyat, I support 2 out of 3 parties. But if PAS & UMNO contest, I will vote UMNO although I dislike it, or I make undi rosak.

    PAS plays down its Islamic ideologies just to gain support, but you see sooner or later they will live it up again. So on this Hudud thing, I told you guys in this blog before & I got scolded not to vote PAS.

    From what I read in the comments down here, I don’t see staunch DAP supporters, but mostly PR supporters who even supports PAS hudud agenda!!!

    For me I support our beloved Chairman, Karpal Singh. And I believe YB Kit Siang & Guan Eng & all other DAP YBs have the same idea as Karpal. I am a staunch DAP supporter here – but not a PR supporter -get my point?

  21. #21 by Jeffrey on Monday, 5 January 2009 - 10:07 pm

    YB Kit,

    Pakatan Rakyat is a electoral coalition. It is a just a collection of parties that do not compete independently in an election (against each other) but as a united front against the incumbent coalition.

    The rationale for forming such an electoral coalition is grounded on the basic rationale that the coalition is beneficial to maximise chances of defeating incumbent coalition (BN), and that had there been no coalition, neither of the three parties running alone, nor even two of the three coalescing, without the third, would have any chance.

    The preceding rationale is the fundamental prerequsite of the formation and subsistence of the coalition.

    It is of course ideal if the component parties are, at the same time, ideologically compatible, ie if as what Lee Wang Yen says, DAP breaks off and there are other moderate parties to join to meet the above prerequisite. However if there are no foreseeable prospects of other parties joining, why does one do? Breakaway when alone or even two of the three coalescing, without the third, would provide no chance?

    Unless there is a good chance, this cannot be.

    So you carry on in a coalition of ideologically incompatible parties. On pure logical grounds, Ong Tee Kiat (OTK)’s accusation – that the DAP supports Hudud/Islamic state by reason of support for PAS KT by election candidate – can be rebutted by the fact that the prerequisite of the coalition is as stated above, and not ideological compatibility, and you have shown that by publicly distancing DAP from Husam’s statement on Hudud, which should suffice.

  22. #22 by Jeffrey on Monday, 5 January 2009 - 10:09 pm

    OTK’s point that DAP’s support of PAS candidate in KT is equivalent to support of Hudud/Islamic State is strictly non sequitur ie an inference or conclusion that does not follow from the premises, the premises being the fundamental prerequisite for formation/sustenance of an electoral coalition, and not ideological compatibility of its component parties, which is not prerequsite…..

    Based on fundamental prerequisite for formation/sustenance of an electoral coalition, DAP will be duty bound to support the PAS candidate even if PAS’s professed ideology is diametrically opposed to DAP’s. This does not imply or necessarily translate to DAP supporting PAS’s implementation of Hudud/Islamic state when an electoral coalition wins an election and becomes a ruling coalition. An electoral coalition operates on a different prerequsite and objective from that of a ruling cioalition sharing power : don’t mix the two up.

    This is the way to rebut him (OKT) : but whether ordinary rakyat/voters in KT will see it same way, is another question. To them you & DAP are perceived supporting Hudud/Islamic state especially after Husam’s reiteration of Hudud, which is PAS’ s fault in raising what to me is unnecessary & contrary to PR’s common objectives excluding it. It will be put to you squarely, yes you are duty bound to support candidates of ideologicaly different coalition partners/parties ’ candidates provided only the ideologicaly different coalition partners/parties honour th e common manifesto but what they evince an intent to breach it by introducing Hudud not agreed in the manifesto? Are you going to condone it and in that process encourage more future breaches? That will be difficult for the DAP to answer, which is why I have sympathy for the view that if and when PAS (or any other component party) breaches the common understanding, the other parties of the coalition not at fault should be seen to take some form of forceful action to ensure that the breach is not viewed lackadasically by the party in breach, so encouraged by lack of action as to repeat the offence with impunity in undermine of the credibility of the entire coalition.

  23. #23 by Jeffrey on Monday, 5 January 2009 - 10:11 pm

    It has to be clarified that what I have stated in preceding posts is soley from the coalition’s point of view – to wrest power via constitutionally mandated ballot box on the assumption that in politics the first objective is power, the second only to be seen exercising it with proper governance, acountability, equitable fairness an democracy.

    From rakyat’s point of view it is at all times a reversal : proper governance, acountability, equitable fairness an democracy come first. It is country’s welfare first, not just power from evicting incumbent.

    However they are entitled to think that an election coalition that wins will also become a government coalition bringing into government th eir disparate ideologies as spoils of victory.

    So if they perceive that this electoral coalition presents a perfect opportunity and platform for PAS to make significant advances of its theocratic agenda as evinced by tolerance by the other two co alition partners of PAS’s repeated breaches of the common understanding/manifesto of PR, to the extent that it will likely become a reality upon electoral victory by PR coalition with PAS i n dominat position – and if further if they think that a moribund, racist or corrupt incumbent government is actually a lesser evil than the Islamic theocratic state – then, they will support the incumbent government.

    If however they think:

    · A Islamic theocratic state is still better than a corrupt incumbent government; or

    · Even if they don’t think so that a theocratic state is better, and for so long that they further think PAS cannot so easily form an Islamic theocratic state when PR secures electoral victory because of demograpics, internal opposition from its coalition partners and also external resistance from BN’s parties (in a Parliamentary Opposition then ), NGOs and civil society,

    then they will tend to be blase about PAS challenges and will support PR in spite of PAS.

    I hope this clarifies some of the issues in contention.

  24. #24 by Onlooker Politics on Monday, 5 January 2009 - 10:29 pm

    “D” wants to find a soulmate and get married then. There are only two men available, i.e. “K” and “U”. “D” finds that “U” is not an honest man and “U” has already been committed with other girl called “C”. Therefore “D” approaches “K” but only finds that “K” is also currently having a courtship with “A”, whom “D” hates the most because of A’s stubborness in upholding the religious fundamentals, which “D” thinks would destroy her secular life if being implemented universally and mandatory.

    A match-maker by the name of Dr. Lee Wang Yen out of a sudden comes to “D” and tells “D” that “D” should breakoff with “K” because K’s courtship with “A” would eventually lead to a marriage between “K” and “A”. Then “D” will then be left with the sole choice of becoming the kept woman of “K” if “D” doesn’t breakoff with “K” now. The match-maker really keeps everybody wonder whom he would recommend to be the new soulmate of “D”.

    However, the match-maker attempts to keep it a puzzle and keeps telling people that “D” has to breakoff with “K” first before a young handsome man can be brought to meet up with “D”.

    So, Godfather, let me ask you this question: Do you want to trust the match-maker?

  25. #25 by ablastine on Monday, 5 January 2009 - 10:33 pm

    It seem rather odd to me that this fella who call himself Lee Wang Yen and who seem to be able to write somewhat really believe that the way to go is for DAP to leave the coalition all together because of idealogical incompatibility with PAS. What type of warp thinking is this. It is almost as warp as that Mamak who at this very moment still thinks that he has done Malaysia a great favour. If he continues harping on like this with his twisted logic I suggest he gets his head check. Could he be a mole from MCA here to sow discord and confusion here.

  26. #26 by undergrad2 on Monday, 5 January 2009 - 10:47 pm

    Do you guys really think with a 40% non-Muslim population, Malaysia might be able to one day turn itself into an Islamic state whatever that may mean??

    The best it could do is to introduce more core Islamic values into the country’s administration. You already have a list of do’s and don’ts i.e. Islamic values which intrude into our private and personal lives.

    Do you really think there will one day be an Islamic crimiinal procedure code which will be applied to non-Muslims? We already have a double tracked system of justice – one which applies to Muslims and the other to non-Muslims based on the English common law. That is confusing enough for one-half of the population.

    The constitutional position of Islam in the constitution is already well protected. If there is a need to introduce more protection, then let’s have it.

    What in practical terms does an Islamic state mean or could mean to the rest of the country?? We should just end this academic discussion on what an Islamic state could mean to non_Muslim Malaysians because it has no practical implications and is just a distraction. Let PAS leaders say whatever they feel. It is just their way of appealing to the religious conservatives of their base.

  27. #27 by undergrad2 on Monday, 5 January 2009 - 10:49 pm

    Let’s not talk in the abstract!

  28. #28 by Godfather on Monday, 5 January 2009 - 10:51 pm

    “So, Godfather, let me ask you this question: Do you want to trust the match-maker?”

    NFW is my answer.

  29. #29 by undergrad2 on Monday, 5 January 2009 - 10:59 pm

    BN will win the KT by-election because conservative Chinese feel intimidated by the religious zeal of PAS leaders and are likely to stay home come election day.

  30. #30 by Godfather on Monday, 5 January 2009 - 11:11 pm

    Finally, Jeffrey is getting somewhere !

    “If however they think:

    · A Islamic theocratic state is still better than a corrupt incumbent government; or

    · Even if they don’t think so that a theocratic state is better, and for so long that they further think PAS cannot so easily form an Islamic theocratic state when PR secures electoral victory because of demograpics, internal opposition from its coalition partners and also external resistance from BN’s parties (in a Parliamentary Opposition then ), NGOs and civil society,

    then they will tend to be blase about PAS challenges and will support PR in spite of PAS. ”

    I put to you that this, on a cumulative basis, is what the majority thinks. This is why PR can win, and PR can rule as an alternative to BN.

  31. #31 by cheng on on Monday, 5 January 2009 - 11:29 pm

    Dare to say, PAS cannot implement Hudud within the next 25 years, simple? How can they ever get 2/3 of parliament to support this? (surely not before 1 Jan 2034), after that ?? I dont know, probably I will be reunited with my ancestor before that.

  32. #32 by katdog on Monday, 5 January 2009 - 11:34 pm

    “Since I’ve been suggesting that DAP forms a third coalition with parties committed to secular democracy” – Lee Wang Yen

    Ok now this is either silly or naive i don’t know which. Do you see any other parties in Malaysia committed to secular democracy willing to join DAP to form a third coalition?

    PKR has always stood with PAS. It’s not going to abandon PAS that is capable of winning the states of Perlis, Kedah, Kelantan and Terrengganu. The only parties that might join DAP are minor or washed out parties like Gerakan, PPP or SAPP. Such a third coalition has absolutely zero chance of winning the elections. Unless Mr. Lee is so naive he thinks PKR might be willing to abandon PAS for DAP?

  33. #33 by undergrad2 on Monday, 5 January 2009 - 11:42 pm

    ” Unless Mr. Lee is so naive he thinks PKR might be willing to abandon PAS for DAP?”

    He is obviously naive – a neophyte at politics. Implicit in this view is that DAP can go alone and gain control of the federal government without Malay support because it has to.

  34. #34 by cheng on on Monday, 5 January 2009 - 11:44 pm

    If PAS close shop, UMNO will get support of almost all the Malay, then UMNO don’t need MCA, MIC n so on, they will then surely be much, much more extremist, racist etc. Do the non Muslim / non Malay want this to happen??
    Never vote for corrupted / extremist / racist party.

  35. #35 by undergrad2 on Tuesday, 6 January 2009 - 12:05 am

    PAS has been around for some fifty years. It’s not going to close shop anytime soon. But your fear of Malays united, that they could go it alone is worth reflecting by both friends and foes.

  36. #36 by sirrganass on Tuesday, 6 January 2009 - 12:06 am

    SO, what is the conclusion? To boycott or not? Is BN better than Hudud? Shall we vote now (those who want to boycott please raise their hands up?)

  37. #37 by undergrad2 on Tuesday, 6 January 2009 - 12:12 am

    How do you “raise your hands up”?? I know how to raise my hands.

  38. #38 by AhPek on Tuesday, 6 January 2009 - 1:04 am

    How come you’ve so quickly forgotten that neophyte in politics is an expert at bloviating!

  39. #39 by Jeffrey on Tuesday, 6 January 2009 - 2:08 am

    “I put to you that this, on a cumulative basis, is what the majority thinks. This is why PR can win, and PR can rule as an alternative to BN.” – Godfather (Yesterday at 23: 11.54)
    Let see the validity of that “put”:

    1. “What the majority thinks?” It is certainly what you or perhaps the majority of some of the more vociferous commenters in this thread think or would like to think. I do not know whether that is what the majority of readers/visitors here (many of whom have not left their comments) think, much less the majority of what rakyat/voters think.

    2. “This is why PR can win, and PR can rule as an alternative to BN” – this depends on what the majority of what rakyat/voters think per 1. and other factors ie whether PR could deliver or can still hold together and not be torn by open dissension by next election on the assumption that BN cannot re-invent;

    3. Even if the majority think either (a) Islamic theocratic state is still better than a corrupt incumbent government; or (b) PAS cannot so easily achieve its end agenda of an Islamic state (whether solely through PR coalition platform or using the opposition platform leap unto the BN platform), it does not necessarily mean that majority is definitely right in its assessment.

  40. #40 by Lee Wang Yen on Tuesday, 6 January 2009 - 6:09 am

    Jeffrey says:

    ‘The rationale for forming such an electoral coalition is grounded on the basic rationale that the coalition is beneficial to maximise chances of defeating incumbent coalition (BN), and that had there been no coalition, neither of the three parties running alone, nor even two of the three coalescing, without the third, would have any chance.

    The preceding rationale is the fundamental prerequsite of the formation and subsistence of the coalition.’

    On the basis of this fundamental prerequisite, Jeffrey then argues that

    ‘So you carry on in a coalition of ideologically incompatible parties. On pure logical grounds, Ong Tee Kiat (OTK)’s accusation – that the DAP supports Hudud/Islamic state by reason of support for PAS KT by election candidate – can be rebutted by the fact that the prerequisite of the coalition is as stated above, and not ideological compatibility, and you have shown that by publicly distancing DAP from Husam’s statement on Hudud, which should suffice.’

    Jeffrey’s contention that OTK’s accusation can be rebutted may be right if the prerequisite he refers to is the sole prerequisite of forming a coalition.

    However, there are other prerequisites that cast aspersions to that contention.

    One key prerequisite of forming a coalition that works on an explicit programme of replacing the current government is to show the electorate that the coalition is ready to govern when it takes over. If PR’s objective were to merely win a few more seats and did not aim at taking over the government, this consideration would be irrelevant. However, since PR’s current objective is clearly to take over the government, this consideration becomes a key prerequisite. Many voters will think that a coalition with parties that adhere to fundamentally incompatible ideologies cannot work effectively in ruling a country.

  41. #41 by Lee Wang Yen on Tuesday, 6 January 2009 - 6:21 am

    Why should DAP pull out from PR? Because the principle of equal partnership adhered to in PR will lead to DAP’s compromise on the issue of PAS’ islamic agenda.

    This can be avoided if there is no equal partnership in PR. But I don’t think DAP wants to get into such a situation.

    Forming a coalition with parties sharing fundamentally compatible ideologies will ensure equal partnership without compromise on issues of fundamental importance.

    I provided a more detailed argument for this point in several previous threads.

  42. #42 by Lee Wang Yen on Tuesday, 6 January 2009 - 6:30 am

    Jeffrey argues that we must distinguish between an electoral coalition and a ruling coalition.

    I see that distinction. But that distinction is not really crucial to the issue here since PR is not a ruling coalition. What’s crucial is whether there is any distinction between an electoral coalition aiming to win more seats and an electoral coalition aiming to unseat the current government when it comes to the need for having compatible ideologies.

    While having compatible ideologies may not be a prerequisite for an electoral coalition aiming just to win more seats, it is a prerequisite for one aiming to unseat the government, since such a coalition need to show the electorate that they are ready to govern when given the mandate. Voters may judge that they are not ready to govern if they think that this coalition does not have compatible ideologies.

  43. #43 by Lee Wang Yen on Tuesday, 6 January 2009 - 6:41 am

    Jeffrey talks a lot about an electoral coalition in his last few posts. But what’s crucial is ‘an electoral coalition aiming to be a ruling coalition’.

    For ‘an electoral coalition aiming to be a ruling coalition’, having compatible ideologies is not merely an ideological issue. It is also crucially relevant to the pragmatic question of whether that coalition can rule effectively. The very viability of that electoral coalition as a ruling coalition is at stake. IF voters judge that a particular electoral coalition with the explicit aim of becoming a ruling coalition is not viable as a ruling coalition, they won’t support it on pragmatic grounds.

  44. #44 by Jeffrey on Tuesday, 6 January 2009 - 7:32 am

    There is a “theoretical”distinction between an electoral coalition and a ruling coalition.

    Lee Wang Yen says, “if voters judge that a particular electoral coalition with the explicit aim of becoming a ruling coalition is not viable as a ruling coalition, they won’t support it on pragmatic grounds.”

    I do not disagree with what he says – from the voters’ view point. This is in fact what I earlier said in my second posting Yesterday at 22: 09.38, 3rd para. Begining with “whether ordinary rakyat/voters in KT will see it same way, is another question…”

    I pointed out the distinction because (1) to acknowledge that distinction is necessary for Kit Siang to rebut Ong Tee Kiat and (2) it is a real consideration from the PR coalition’s raison de etre, objective and point of view of winning power as distinguished from rakyat/voters’ priority. This is already clarified in my 3rd posting Yesterday at 22: 11.55 in which I said, “it has to be clarified that what I have stated in preceding posts is soley from the coalition’s point of view – to wrest power etc ……From rakyat’s point of view it is at all times a reversal…”

  45. #45 by undergrad2 on Tuesday, 6 January 2009 - 7:44 am

    So much for logical thinking.

  46. #46 by undergrad2 on Tuesday, 6 January 2009 - 7:49 am

    All politicians should enlist in a class for ‘logical thinking’ because they don’t understand what they are thinking and saying! Let the master of philosophy and logical thinking lead the way to a happy and prosperous Malaysia!

    Politicians and future leaders must understand what they are thinking and saying before they could hope others could uderstand what they are saying and thinking.

  47. #47 by Jeffrey on Tuesday, 6 January 2009 - 8:06 am

    However lets look at the question : whether the distinction between an electoral and aruling coalition is “real” or crucial enough on realistic grounds to stand. This is really what Lee Wang Yen questions.

    The answer to that (arguing on pragmatic grounds) is (frankly) not a straight forward one of yes or no.

    In a sense, Lee Wang Yen’s questioning is entirely legitimate. If my distinction (between electoral coalition and ruling coalition) were intended to imply that an ideologically divided electoral coalition can easily, on electoral victory, make the transition to an effective ruling coalition, then that is wrong. Ideologicaly differences cannot disappear overnight : indeed they are likelier exacerbated in victory when sharing power (the ultimate objective) becomes imminent or realised. This is especially so when the parties to PR coalition are only 3, arguably of equal power and voters pull. They may squabble and fall apart.

    But one may ask (also on pragmatic grounds) will above scenario definitely happen?

    As at now Anwar cannot get a single BN (non-UMNO) party to cross because they follow who they think is winner. The moment they sense PR would win or PR has already won, do you think they won’t join PR ruling coalition with alacrity diluting, as I said in the past, PAS’s influence and dominance necessary for it to assert its theological agenda within the ruling coalition?

    As has been pointed out, we h ave a constitution (not in line with PAS’s ideology), NGOs, Civil Society, PKR & DAP as well as whatever left of BN in the opposition then : is it so easy for PAS to assert/realise its ag enda in light of existing realities of Malaysia’s demographics?

    Again we return here to possibilities versus probabilities which Lee Wang Yen has highlighted in the past. Is it so probable that PAS will get its objective?

    This has to be balanced against three reality check:

    1. taking experience of other opposition electoral coalition elsewhere how many of these have ideological compatible parties? (Here one is permitted to lok at “degrees” of incompatibility. We cannot refute that PAS’s ideological difference with the other two is as wide as between North and South poles);

    2. if DAP were to break off now who would join it in the PD? It is chicken and egg: they join when DAP evince chance to win. They don’t join so easily to h elp DAP break off from PAS to win. Otherwise they would, on Anwar’s overtures, have already joined PR by now!

    3. the other consequence of 2., is that the prospect of change of BN immediately recedes, all gains on March 8th will be wiped out, and it i s not easy to t hink that this is the better way forward for the country. If PR is allowed to win by staying together, then at least there is a chance for the dangers of PAS’s theocratic state to be mitigated by dilution as I said earlier.

  48. #48 by Jeffrey on Tuesday, 6 January 2009 - 8:15 am

    Concerns about PAS are real in one other sense, that (1) using PR platform, it wins sufficient seats and strengthen sufficient to cause UMNO to invite it and join up/share power in the process of which PAS’s ideology or some parts of it will be advanced.

    These concerns may be greater than PAS being able to assert its ideology within Pakatan Rakyat coalition (2) unless the other two coalition partners (PKR & DAP) repeatedly allow it to get away with flagrant breaches of common manifesto, assert its dominance as MCA and MIC allow UMNO to do so in BN.

    (1) and (2) are real concerns.

  49. #49 by Godfather on Tuesday, 6 January 2009 - 8:24 am

    (1) and (2) ? What about (3) ?

    According to our logic professor, there can’t be just (a) or (b), there has to be a (c).

  50. #50 by Godfather on Tuesday, 6 January 2009 - 8:32 am

    “What the majority thinks?” It is certainly what you or perhaps the majority of some of the more vociferous commenters in this thread think or would like to think. I do not know whether that is what the majority of readers/visitors here (many of whom have not left their comments) think, much less the majority of what rakyat/voters think. said Jeffrey QC

    Permatang Pauh wasn’t a majority ? Penang, Selangor, Perak, Kedah, Wilayah, Kelantan – did the majority in these states think likewise ?

    Even in this thread – how sure are you that “many of whom have not left their comments” are those who think the opposite of the majority who have left their comments ?

    The silent majority thinks like Lee Wang Yen ? If so, there should be no problems in creating a third force, his so-called PD. The reality is that PD will be a still-born, booted into oblivion even before it can cry “wolf”.

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