I am surprised that the MCA president Datuk Seri Ong Tee Keat is saying things that makes neither sense nor logic. It would appear that his short tenure as the MCA President has imposed such a tremendous pressure that he is speaking and acting, to many, completely out of character.
Yesterday, he came out with a blog entitled “DAP, not MCA, should boycott KT by-election”, which was promptly reported by the Star online, with the headline “Boycott by-election, DAP told” as follows:
PETALING JAYA: MCA president Datuk Seri Ong Tee Keat has asked DAP to boycott the Kuala Terengganu by-election campaign as a matter of principle if it is really against PAS’ plan to implement hudud and qisas laws if it comes to power at the national level.
He said if DAP chose to help campaign for PAS’ candidate in Kuala Terengganu, then it would mean that the party supported public whipping, amputation and stoning for criminal offences under hudud laws.
“Mere words objecting to PAS vice-president Datuk Husam Musa’s statement on the issue would not suffice if not demonstrated by action,” Ong said in his latest posting in his blog.
Ong is not making any sense firstly, as he is flying in the face of the DAP record and history in trying to suggest that the DAP supports “public whipping, amputation and stoning for criminal ofences under hudud laws” – a suggestion which is so ludicrous that it does not deserve rebuttal!
It will not be surprising if such a ridiculous allegation had come from his lowly lieutenants who have no integrity to defend but I am amazed and wonder what has happened to Ong that he could descend to such a depth in so short a time after becoming MCA President!
Secondly, Ong is also not making any sense with his blog as I never suggested that MCA boycott the Kuala Terengganu by-election.
Going by his logic, Ong should lead MCA to quit the Barisan Nasional unless UMNO leaders repent and withdraw their seven-year stand that Malaysia is an Islamic state which is not only unconstitutional but totally contrary to the Merdeka social contract reached by the forefathers of the major communities on the attainment of Independence in 1957 that Islam is the official religion but Malaysia is not an Islamic state!
On Sept. 29, 2001, the then Prime Minister and Umno President, Datuk Seri Dr. Mahathir Mohamad declared that Malaysia was an Islamic State, committing the MCA without referring the issue first for consultation with and consent of the MCA leadership and membership.
But there was no need for any prior consultation or consent from the MCA leadership in the “unequal relationship” between Umno and MCA, as evident from the quick public support given by the MCA leadership to the “929 Declaration”: that Malaysia was an Islamic State, although this went against all that the MCA founding fathers in particular Tun Tan Cheng Lock and Tun Tan Siew Sin had stood for.
Who is really to be blamed for UMNO playing the “bully” in the Umno-MCA relationship?
In the past seven years, this “929 Declaration” that Malaysia is an Islamic State was repeated again and again by Umno leaders, the latest by the Prime-Minister-designate Datuk Seri Najib Razak, in July last year, with the MCA leadership continuing to give tacit support.
Going by Ong’s logic in his blog, shouldn’t he be leading the MCA to quit Barisan Nasional unless UMNO leaders repent and withdraw their seven-year-old stand that Malaysia is an Islamic state, especially when this is clearly against the Malaysian Constitution and the Merdeka “social contract” that while Islam is the official religion, Malaysia is not an Islamic state?
Ong and MCA should learn from the DAP, for DAP leaders had no hesitation in publicly declaring that PAS Vice President Datuk Husam Musa was wrong and mistaken as hukum hudud is neither DAP nor Pakatan Rakyat policy – leading to Husam admitting that the DAP is right.
I will like to know where Ong got the idea that I had proposed that the MCA boycott the forthcoming Kuala Terengganu by-election, resulting in his retort that it is the DAP which should boycott the by-election.
On Wednesday, I had said that “there is no need for MCA to help in the Barisan Nasional campaign for the Kuala Terengganu by-election next month” if Ong could not publicly furnish the answers to the Five Questions I had posed to him in April about the RM4.6 billion Port Klang Free Zone (PKFZ) scandal
My language was simple and clear. I was not asking the MCA to boycott the Kuala Terengganu by-election but giving a clear warning that the new MCA President and leadership risk being exposed in the by-election as having failed to honour Ong’s public pledge on accountability, transparency and integrity by “telling all” about the RM4.6 billion PKFZ scandal – as Ong’s press conference on Sunday was nothing but a “cover-up” and a “white-wash” of the RM4.6 billion PKFZ scandal!
My warning to Ong remains – that unless he is prepared to honestly and truthfully answer the Five Questions on the RM4.6 billion PKFZ scandal, in particular the role of the two former MCA Transport Ministers, he will be confronted with these questions in the Kuala Terengganu by-election and the MCA will not be rendering any help to the Barisan Nasional by-election campaign if the MCA President and leadership are seen as terribly defensive or worse, as being “on the run”, from giving full and proper accountability for the PKFZ scandal.
#1 by luking on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 7:55 am
called himsel a president,can’t even understand and answer simple english question or on purpose trying to act stupid,cos he got no answer to those questions.otk!as long as mca is in,we are committed to vote for the opposition.we r not going to sell the future of our generations.
#2 by limkamput on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 8:23 am
Since March 8, the BN Government has always talked about change and reform. But there is ancient wisdom grounded among most religions: we can’t change or reform unless we admit our failings and follies. I do not see this happening, and therefore I do not see the possibilities of reform and change. Take any issue you like: be it PKFZ, the toll roads, the IPPs, the school system, the public transportation system and economic management – the same pathetic parochialism and bigotry prevail!
The reform and change should rightly including the main stream media. Again, I am not seeing this happening. Yes, they have tried to be more open and fair. But in between, they still have this tendency to pick and highlight issues that suit their own agenda. Ultimately, it is we the people again. If we continue to buy and support main stream media that work against our interest, who are we to blame?
#3 by limkamput on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 8:24 am
sorry, ….but there is an ancient wisdom…..
#4 by wanderer on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 8:30 am
MCA has not got the integrity, morality and courage to represent the Chinese community. The leaders are just barking dogs with no political directions, just beggars.
YB Lim, would’nt it be too much to ask this party to part with UMNO?
How could they, where have these leaders ever shown any principle…only waiting to pick the left over cherries from UMNO.
OKT is no exception. Don’t waste time with him and likes.
#5 by cstan2000 on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 8:47 am
So far that is no change, same things happen with lip service. The young people in KT will still vote for PR and it will be even more of them in PRU13. MCA when confront DAP they are very brave, but with UMNO, they are like nothing, keep quiet. I wonder when is the toll contract going to be made public….We need to change BN in PRU13, forget about crossover after toppling Taib Mahmud, DAP is right crossover is not the right thing to do, it will lead to instability.
#6 by Bigjoe on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 9:11 am
I beg to differ. It is NOT that OTK is not making any sense. BUT he is FLAILING i.e., striking any how or colloquilly speaking ‘hentam saja’. This is NOT what the Chinese community expect from today’s Chinese leaders and one that was termed ‘maverick’ before i.e., its marginal leadership. Chinese community no longer want marginal leaders, they want strategic leaders that can deal with long delayed and postphone problems that is now too much for the community to bear anymore. A fundamental shift that a ‘maverick’ was suppose to be able to do.
OTK excuse, an an old one, is the he has to do this, hit at the opposition hard. By all means. BUT NOT HIT ANYHOW. Hentam saja is no good, pretty crappy actually. Make the philandering Chua Soi Lek look like the visionary leader compared to him.
OTK despite his recently more frequent bulldog-like face, is just proving he is a chichuahua in reality. A Beverly Hills Chihuahua that snipes and spoilt rather than having any real bite…
#7 by ctc537 on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 9:30 am
OTK sees a very bright future for himself and MCA, so it is most unlikely the party would leave the BN however bad it is treated within the coalition. Issues like PKFZ, the toll roads, the IPPs, the school system, the public transportation system and economic management are but a few mentioned by Limkamput. They waste the people’ hard-earned money and even pocket it.
Men of integrity are very hard to find, with exceptions like Datuk Zaid Ibrahim, YB LKS, YB Karpal Singh, Salleh Abbas, Tan Sri Lee Lam Thye… to name just a few.
Those politicians who commit wrongs while in office will have to pay back and receive appropriate punishment from God when the time comes.
#8 by A true Malaysian on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 9:54 am
Politicians tend to bring out Hudud Laws issue when an election is near. These are all political gimmicks to me any how many politicians from both BN and PR knows exactly what Hudud Laws is?
Malaysia Today latest articles carry very good explanation on this issue and all should read those, then comment on this subject.
To me, MCA has lost its integrity. OTK, do you have any concience left?
#9 by monsterball on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 10:09 am
Childish…..low class….pot calling a kettle black type of politics…to please UMNO.
MCA was at his worst these 28 years…clearly treating UMNO as their landlord.
DAP and PAS are like dogs and cats. Everyone knows that.
Still dogs and cats can be real good sincere friends…as they do in real life too.
DAP and PAS may co-operate as political conveniences…but DAP.. do not have any selfish personal ulterior motives…in that arrangement.
PAS have a track record…to play race and religion politics…but they are toeing the Pakatan Rakyat objectives nicely.
DAP fights for freedom and democracy and corruptions… all their lives.
MCA fight for pleasing UMNO..to stay in politics.
Declaring..they are champions to Chinese is simply full of shit.
So…why be so surprised…..any MCA president will stoop do low…to challenge DAP?
What good qualifications and reputations do they have?….NOTHING!!
This is the type of so call Malaysian Chinese…..that China despises most….that is …if their roots means anything to their so call MCA…party name. “C” is Chinese…not Malaysian.
They accepted to be.. second class citizens.
Why bother to talk of these running dogs of UMNO?
I talk to let young Malaysians Chinese know and ask questions.do research and don’t simply believe MCA will help them.
#10 by limkamput on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 10:35 am
PAS, I suggest you fellows don’t be too cock sure! Are you sure the majority of Malays Muslims are supportive of Hudud? PAS, we are tired, it is time you fellows move on to more liberal platform. Religions have be used and reused by men for centuries for their own political and personal interests. What make you think you fellows (including Nik
Aziz) are any difference. I see hypocrites and cheats in religious establishments everywhere. Our best bet is to go for proper governing institutions, not utopian religious dictates established centuries ago.
#11 by localgrad on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 11:00 am
The MCA goons and eu-nuchs are hypocrites.
Pre-3.08, under mahathir time, they passed and agreed on every single unfair law in Malaysia, our of personal interest and of course cowardness to rebute those unjustice laws.
After they have been abandoned by the Rakyat, now barking like carzy dogs, but also selective…. Is OTK dare to bark to his Master Najib that his move of rebuke the coversion of leasehold to freehold land is unconstitutional?
Come-on, people, look at the broader picture, dun fall into illusion of these bunch of eu-nuchs again…. and they will pay their price one day…. maybe on their sons and daughters, maybe on judgement day. Every single MCA leaders are guity and filthy, ever since Tan CL and the day they worked with UMNO.
#12 by A true Malaysian on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 11:06 am
An excerpt of RPK,
“No, I am no lawyer. I am not even a religious scholar. I just have a brain; a brain God gave me. And God gave us brains so that we can use it to think. But I wonder why others do not also use their brains that God gave them to think.”
This excerpt is best for some of our Muslim friends here.
#13 by anak_malaysia on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 11:08 am
MCA can never represent Chinese community in M’sia. So stop all these allegation that speak for the Chinese. It is a disgrace. They can only speak for the MCA members.
OTK is just another OKT. The difference is a switch between K and T. Hahahahaha
#14 by monsterball on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 11:17 am
This is a real pot calling a kettle black.
Becareful….not all proclaiming they are true Malaysians are trully true.
#15 by OrangRojak on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 11:24 am
It’s going to be a long hard struggle against generations of tradition concerning “harmonious face”. Disagreement is part of the human condition, to pretend otherwise is to deny your own humanity.
I can see that “look la, they cannot agree” might be a persuasive political ploy in Malaysia, but I think PR has done an admirable job of sticking to its principles over the recent hudud matter. PAS push for hudud because (I presume) its supporters wish for it. DAP and PKR object to hudud because (I presume) their supporters object to it. No doubt PR component parties have heard from their supporters since the issue was publicised and are now disabused of their presumption if they had presumed wrong. There is no reason why DAP or PKR should have to explain their objection to hudud: democratic politics is a popularity contest. The responsibility for convincing people for or against hudud lies with the rakyat. Ask your neighbours why or why not, but remember that disagreement is your neighbours’ prerogative.
Similarly, “Malaysia ini Negara Islam” is a point of view some hold and others don’t. I don’t believe the Constitution has made the matter clear. I don’t even believe that the concept of a ‘religious country’ is well formed, so arguments for or against it are ill-fated. There’s a hair’s breadth between MCA forming a government with a party claiming that Malaysia is an Islamic state and DAP forming a united opposition with a party that champions hudud law. MCA’s quiet obedience to ‘Negara Islam’ is far less admirable than DAP and PKR’s public declaration of ‘no hudud’, in my book. I can be confident that I know the details of DAP and PKR’s contribution to PR. I can only doubt MCA’s contribution to BN, given its mysterious position.
I hope Malaysians can set aside the habit of generations and see “harmonious face” for what it is – a façade behind which many ills can be hidden. A house may be painted many times, but inside it may have been consumed by termites. Caveat emptor.
#16 by limkamput on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 11:28 am
One more thing, the future PM said Malaysia should help Malays who are minority in other countries. How stupid can that statement be? But I guess he has done his homework. He is counting on the resurgence of racism to galvanise support for UMNO.
Supporting Malays who are minority in other countries? Look, it is so racist. If you want to help, you should others irrespective of race, religion and nationality. That is what humanity is all about. Second, Malays who are minority in other countries may not need your help. They are doing much better than the Malays here. To the future PM, you should perhaps ask why there is still so much of poverty here despite the Malay having majority and controlling political power in this country. Who did the UMNO-BN government work for the past 50 years?
#17 by rockdaboat on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 11:32 am
Before suggesting this, OTK should look himself in the mirror first!!!
We don’t need MCA to represent us, thank you very much MCA, we are ashamed of you!!!
#18 by A true Malaysian on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 12:16 pm
‘Hudud can be humane if you want it to be. But has this been explained? Are the people aware that Hudud can improve society where common law has failed? But who cares? Who cares that Hudud can be better than what we have now? Hudud is not about religion. It is about politics. And politics is about exploitation and deception. And that is because politicians are prostitutes. And Hudud has been prostituted for the benefit of politics. That is what Hudud is all about, political prostitution.’
#19 by A true Malaysian on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 12:21 pm
The above is excerpt of RPK.
#20 by voice on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 12:37 pm
Yes, I see no change in MCA after the political tsunami, and they even elected a coward to lead the party, he is no better than Ong Ka Ting, while PAS and DAP speak freely in the same coalition, MCA is still being a slave to UMNO.
YB Kit, please bring DAP to Malaysians, for Malaysians, recently I’ve seen some news over the mainstream media and even Malaysiakini reporting about the Damansara school saying DAP and MCA trying to gain politcal mileage over it, please get DAP out of equality with MCA in people’s mind, DAP must be more multi-racial. I’m a Malaysian Chinese and I always prefer to hear what Malays and Indians are talking about, not just from the Chinese.
#21 by jus legitimum on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 12:39 pm
The leadership under OTK is like old wine kept in new bottle and it is still the same old eunuchs and running dogs helming the MCA.Do not expect reforms and any turnaround from these hypocrites and munafik.Their dreamy eyes have long been focussing on just wealth and postion.These lapdogs should be spat on and cursed until their conscience(if they still have it) pricks them and wakes them up from their evil intent.The chinese community should stand up and tell them straight in the face to stop using the mask of championing their rights.
#22 by Yee Siew Wah on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 12:43 pm
These BN component parties are just the running dogs of their masters in Umno. In particular MCA who claim to represent the chinese. MCA/MIC/Gerakan/PPP are all goners as far as the rakyat concern since 08 march. They can do whatever they want. The rakyat dont bother a damn.
As I have said I have some respect for this OTK before he become president. After he become president, he has shown his true colors. He did not fulfill whatever he has promise. I guess TKO (Talk Kok Only) is a name suits him better now. All are of the same kind, milking the rakyat of $$$$$$$$ and care only of themselves.
I hope these component parties dont waste their time and rakyat money in the coming KT by-election. PKR will whack BN straight to the ground.
#23 by undergrad2 on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 1:32 pm
“He said if DAP chose to help campaign for PAS’ candidate in Kuala Terengganu, then it would mean that the party supported public whipping, amputation and stoning for criminal offences under hudud laws”
You wish!!
PR is about offering an alternative platform to the corrupt ways of BN. It does not mean there is a consensus ad idem on all issues between the component parties . The voting is between “for BN” or “against BN” – and not so much “for PR.”
In plain language it simply means they are coming after your balls. They are not offering a new set of balls.
#24 by k1980 on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 2:17 pm
YB Lim, you are holding OTK with too much regard. How can you expect him to do all the above when he is monopolizing the mca, trying to squeeze out Chua the porn actor and all those who oppose him
#25 by Onlooker Politics on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 2:22 pm
No matter how Tun Dr. Mahathir claimed it in 2001, Malaysia would continue to remain as a secular nation. Tun Dr. Mahathir’s mouth-of-word would never turn Malaysia into an “Islamic State”.
No matter how Husam Musa said it about the merit of Hudud, Malaysia is still in a pre-mature stage to accept Hudud as a universal law for all Malaysians. Hudud would continue to remain as an unrealizable religious idealism in Malaysia so long as the majority people in Malaysia did not wish to comply with it or abide by it.
Husam Musa definitely has his human rights and total freedom as a religious champion to come up with his own academic proposition on how the Malaysia should be turned to. Whether the majority people will buy his academic proposition or not will all depend on whether PAS can come up with a convincing and concrete evidence on how Hudud can be made beneficial to all Malaysians in general. The modern Malaysians will certainly reject PAS sooner or later if PAS still insists to live in the ancient mindset about the religious Utopia!
#26 by jedyoong on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 2:23 pm
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
Happy Holidays + New Year, to YB and family.
HA H AHA HA HA HA HA AH
Remember Chew Mei Fun’s “who will feed me” statement when asked to resign ‘cos of that scandal with that Tourism Ministry subsidiary?
I can already imagine what OTK may say….
What’s wrong with hudud laws!
Anyway it does not apply to non-Muslims though it should too as why should a Chinese snatch thief have a lighter sentence than a Muslim one?
#27 by localgrad on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 2:32 pm
Yes, K1980 was correct. DAP and you should not “bestow” too much regards to Eu-nuch MCAs especially the president OTK with not much of academic ahievement nor brain development. (heard that he scored really bad in STPM, so as to his predecessor OKT and Chan KC).
They are nothing like you, DAPs, PKRs or even Pas. It made me feel disgust when people mentioned MCA name and those stupid slogan like MCA for Chinese….
They are intellectually and mentally unfit to lead a cabinet let alone the whole chinese community. Najib, please consider to replace them with more caliber people regardless of race.
Uncle Kit, please find a way to communicate to the whole Malaysia that DAP is nothing like MCA and further clarify the matters. After then, you and DAPs shall not give any regard to them, let them bark crazily in UMNO backyard…(ya, UMNO also wont bother to put them in the front door, toothless and cowardess).
#28 by localgrad on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 2:43 pm
To recap, Chew MF’s infamous quotes:
1. If not MCA, you all Chinese had already be sent back to China. (During the NTV live debate)
2. What? We already ended NEP ended in 1990. (while replying a reporter’s question on her view on NEP)
What a naive and retarded people MCA has bred, somemore now become the freaking MCA Wanita Chief!!! Malaysia+MCA boleh!!!
Coincidently, she also did badly in STPM….
#29 by localgrad on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 2:50 pm
BTW, would like to use this platform to wish Uncle Lim, Guan Eng, Terresa, Ngeh Koh Ham, Lim Lit Eng and other DAPs:
MERRY CHIRSTMAS!!!
GOD Bless us.
#30 by imranj78 on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 3:15 pm
UMNO calling Malaysia an Islamic state is just political rhetoric and does not make any difference to the country and how it is run. Its not as if UMNO wants to push for hudud laws. So there’s no difference if one supports it or not as it does not translate to anything concrete at the end of the day.
Being in alliance with a party such as PAS which has a clear `Islamic state’ agenda is a different matter altogether. DAP can say now that PR’s policies does not contain an aim to form an Islamic state, but an alliance’s policies are derived from its member parties’ individual aims. What’s the point of PAS being in PR if PR does not support PAS’ own agenda? In my view, we will see an increase in PAS’ influence in all PR states. We have seen this in Selangor with respect to the proposed alcohol sale an. We have also seen this in Penang where a dance festival organizer have had to segregate males and females. This is just the start and I have no doubt we will see more of PAS’ influence on PR states.
For as long as PAS continues in its current form, it will continue to struggle to fight for the formation of an Islamic state. This is its reason for existence and to drop such a target will mean loosing a big chunk of its supporters. Asking PAS to drop such an objective is like asking DAP to drop its `Malaysian Malaysia’ objective. The fact that PAS `tries’ to portray a moderate face in the public and media does not hide this real intention which has already been made obvious several times. Even Nik Aziz has recently come out to say that PAS still holds to its target of forming an Islamic state with hudud laws.
The next question then is this – how will this impact on the long term viability and coherence of PR? Anwar’s silence on this matter is not very assuring and he knows he is between a rock and a hard place. If PR gets stronger, the chorus among PAS supporters to push for a more Islamic approach in the country will naturally get stronger. How will DAP and PKR respond? Will it eventually buckle to such pressure or will they risk alienating PAS at the expense of loosing all their gains from March 08?
#31 by cstan2000 on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 3:20 pm
OTK, young ppl will still vote for PAS , no matter what background they are , to get rid BN of many ills. whoever be MCA president going to be same. CHANGE is the word now. MCA is basically useless, except to get contract for family. PAS for all now…. future when they behave badly, we get rid of them. like rpk said if PR become goverment, he will join UMNO…… me too will join MCA if PR in power…
#32 by limkamput on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 3:22 pm
undergrad2, between BN balls and no ball, which do you prefer?
#33 by monsterball on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 3:41 pm
limkamput…you should also ask imranj78…same question.
#34 by Lee Wang Yen on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 3:44 pm
I hope DAP leaders and supporters can take imranj78’s very sensible comment seriously (see above).
Yes, DAP’s (repeated) alliance with PAS is a greater evil than MCA’s acceptance of UMNO’s declaration of Islamic state. DAP should not campaign for PAS in KT.
#35 by chris chong on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 4:29 pm
hahaha what a fool he is making himself into. he just trying to play the tai chi to confuse the attention as BN is always good at.
MCA is irrelevant. don’t waste time on them.
happy holiday and merry christmas!!!
#36 by localgrad on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 4:49 pm
To push for hudud, Pas needs at least 2/3 majority to amend the constitution…. which I dont think so they will be able to achieve that number in my lifetime (but hard to say after another 50 years la, which i wont care anymore coz most likely i m already in coffin).
I strongly disagreed wotj Lee Wang Yen and Imraj, because MCA’s acceptance of UMNO’s evil laws and practices had already been done for many many years. (it already happened and is still happening, understand?)
Whereas, Pas’ hudud rhetoric is just an sweet song for its hardcore members. (Future tense…. Pas will push for/implement—not happening yet and most likely wont happen in the next 50 years… understand?)
#37 by PSM on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 4:55 pm
First off, the MCA, MIC, gerakan & PPP have always been & will always be lap dogs of UMNO. They have NO say whatsoever in the running of the Government. All the “noise” that these parties made recently was due to the fact that they were almost completely rejected by the people in the last GE! Just wait, the next GE will see their complete destruction!
Secondly, PAS shoudl really wake up & smell the coffee! They know that the majority of Malaysians (including the Muslims) in Malaysia do not support Hudud Laws. Anyway, even if the PR takes over the Federal Government, PAS cannot implement Hudud Laws because they do not have the Majority as they form a group with the DAP & PKR.
Thirdly, UMNO & Najib are gong to really CRY when they lose the coming KT by-election!
Lastly, bye, bye to the Corrupted & Racist BN…the next GE will see you go into oblivion just like the Nazis, the South African Apartheid Regime & the Klu Klux Clan!
#38 by localgrad on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 5:29 pm
Ye man, gimmi 5.
Cant wait to see the result of KT by-elec.
Wan to see how UMNO spit into MCA face and MCA begging for forgiveness…. becoz i can assure PAS will get more Chinese vote time time around. Hence, wat for keep MCA in BN, might as well kick their ass off.
Hey MCA-MIC-Gerakan and other shit like political beggars. Ask u one thing, are you not the federal government of the day? and y are u still shouting— fight for x community rights, fight for vernecular primary schools blar blar blar. oh man, u r the government/executive of the country, right? dumb head OTK and Koh TK.
People, please wake up! and hv a coffee then kick BN off in KT.
#39 by madguyho on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 6:30 pm
I think MCA & MIC trapped once again by the strategy of PAKATAN. This proved that how raw and inexperience MCA & MIC goons in political manoeuvre. Let them shout louder against Hudud Laws, the louder the better, this will alienate more KT Muslim votes. I think the Hudud’s statement by Husam is a double edged sword, only those goons trying to catch it!
#40 by A true Malaysian on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 6:34 pm
Look like KT ‘bye-bye’ election is a forgone conclusion. Might as well walk over…..MCA
#41 by Godfather on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 6:36 pm
Lee Wang Yen, the Islamic scholar from Cambridge, is again making his stupid remarks. I wonder how a person having been admitted to this learned institution could make such comments.
If you follow what Husam said earlier about Hudud, all he said was that PAS would implement Hudud if it ever assumed power in the federal government. He then went on to say that PAS would find it “difficult” to implement Hudud under the PR coalition, because the other two coalition partners are against the implementation.
The mainstream press reported the first part, but ignored the subsequent caveat.
Now PAS has admitted two things: first, it recognises the opposition of its two coalition partners to Hudud. Second, PAS by itself is unlikely to form the next federal government. Why should DAP try to change PAS ? Why should PAS try to change DAP ? Both parties are bound by a common desire to stop the looting, the pillaging, the incessant rape of the nation that would bring this country to its knees.
You may be a good scholar, Lee Wang Yen, but you should seek a proper grounding in politics.
#42 by kerishamuddinitis on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 6:37 pm
MCA is ONE Running Dog that’s toothless with a hypocritical bark and absolutely no bite. They claim to represent the Chinese in Malaysia? MCA is only representing the lapdogs of UMNO. All those Chinese who belong to MCA just will not accept that they are UMNO serfs, lapdogs and sometime tea-boys and goodtime ah mois.
Only Talk Kok is an imbecile to imagine he can STILL play the race and religion cards with Chinese in Malaysia. Aiyo, enough-lah. Even our grandmothers now know MCA lies through its teeth. PAS is part and parcel together with DAP and PKR in the PR government. They will say whatever thay need to say to keep their flock believing in them. DAP has always said whatever they are saying. Their flock has never doubted them. PKR is forging a new Malaysia under DSAI. As long as PR WORKS FOR THE INTEREST OF THE MAJORITY OF MALAYSIANS, MALAYSIA WILL REMAIN SECULAR. Malays make up 50% of this country’s population. Not all Malays are Muslims, mind you. Negligible but fact. The other 50% don’t want Muslim laws. Throw in a mere 10% of Malays who DON’T want Muslim laws, and well, we will remain secular.
And MCA? Still vomiting the same old crap that’s forced back up from their rectums.
Chew May13 Fun said in her campaign that Chinese must support MCA to avoid another May 13,. And this came hot on the heels of the raging condemnation of Kerishamuddin’s keris-waving antics. So, despite the absolute rejection of such racist threats, Chew May13 Fun saw it fit to raise this spectre of racial violence to garner support fronm the Chinese.
Then, what happened? MCA got frigging WIPED OUT in Selangor. Now, Only Talk Kok is trying to say as much to the Chinese in Kuala Terengganu?
Say some more! And louder! With Only Talk Kok’s help UMNO will lose KT! GUARANTEED!
#43 by Godfather on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 6:43 pm
We all know what Ong Ta Kut is all about. Before he ascended the MCA presidency, he was already subservient to his UMNO masters.
He was told to sit down when he tried to make noises about anti-Chinese remarks at previous UMNO general assemblies, and he duly complied.
He promised to reveal “all” about the Port Klang Free Trade Zone scandal, but then UMNO said he couldn’t implicate its Treasurer Azim or Selangor UMNO, so Ong Ta Kut made up his own chronology of events without mentioning who was actually pulling the strings at each step of the process.
The Chinese voters in KT know the barking dogs of MCA very well. Barking dogs don’t bite.
#44 by AhPek on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 7:42 pm
When Mamakthir declared malaysia a Muslim state both Ling Liong Sik and Samy Vellu did not put in any comment (meaning they concur) whilst Lim Keng Yik shamelessly agree.The relationship between UMNO and its component parties in the BN is more akin to a master and slave.Contrast it with DAP and PAS..they agree on some issue and disagree on others.It’s more like an equal partnership.
How then can Lee Wang Yen assert that DAP’s alliance with PAS a greater evil than the one MCA has with UMNO?In MCA’s caseshe will accede to all the wishes of UMNO.PAS can never get this out of DAP!! I am puzzled by his thinking.
#45 by chengho on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 7:45 pm
DAP must get out from PAKATAN unless PAS denounce Hussam hudud ambition. Anuar just wanna be PM and a horse trader.
#46 by AhPek on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 7:59 pm
It’s funny you know that malaysia is not prepared to help the orang asli of Peninsula of Malaysia,the orang asal of East Malaysia,the poor Indians and the poor chinese but yet she is prepared to help minority Malays of other countries,meaning Malays of South Africa,Malays of Srilanka,Malays of some of the Pacific islands and best of all Malays of Australia (Malays with all the ill begotten money parked there!!).
OTK is completely quiet about this.In other words he completely agrees with Najib knowing full well that taxes come almost completely (90%) from the non Malays!
#47 by AhPek on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 8:25 pm
Besides charity starts at home.How can one be charitable to others whilst not being charitable to the ones at home? What kind of thinking has gotten into the head of this future PM of this country.
#48 by Onlooker Politics on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 8:38 pm
Uncle Kit,
Perhaps we should not waste too much time on the ineffective “929 Declaration” anounced by Tun Dr. Mahathir seven years ago because Tun Dr. Mahathir might not be too serious about it after he had stepped down from the post of a Prime Minister.
Tun Dr. Mahathir was never a man of his own word because he sometimes would never walk his talk and he was never a man of his own principle. He blamed the UMNO power-that-be for putting bar on him for talking to UMNO members but he himself also practiced censorship in his blogsite.
Please allow me some spaces below for purpose of exposing the hypocritical face of Tun Dr. Mahathir to the public.
Thank you.
Onlooker
*********************************************
Tun Dr. Mahathir,
The following clause in your article posted in your website http://test.chedet.com/che_det/
is referred:
“7. But still the acts of terror have gone on and show signs of escalating. Muslim airline passengers are made to go through humiliating searches, detained for hours. Hundreds of so-called terrorist suspects have been detained without trial for years, often humiliated and tortured with no means of seeking redress.”
You like to say “Melayu mudah lupa!” I think your word is probably true because as shown in Clause 7 which is your attempt to criticize the Western Powers for discriminating against the Muslim terrorist suspects, you yourself tend to forget that you did indeed send many Anwar Ibrahim’s supporters and the suspected currency traders (whom you name-called as rumour-mongers) to the ISA detention camps during the third and the fourth quarters of 1998.
Your political aides from the Special Branch required all the ISA detainees to show their naked body in front of a few Special Branch Officers and these officers kept interrogate the ISA detainees (mostly male) on whether they have any homosexual pennis-anals intercourse relation with Anwar Ibrahim. I think you are well-deserved to be name-called as “devil reincarnated” with your such a sinful political persecution on many innocent people. And yet you dare to cry foul on the Western Powers for doing wrong to the Muslim Terrorist suspects. Will you please stop applying the double-standards on the humanitarian issues, whether they are relevant to the oppressed Malaysians or the oppressed Arabians?
Onlooker
#49 by undergrad2 on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 8:55 pm
limkamput Says:
Today at 15: 22.21 (5 hours ago)
undergrad2, between BN balls and no ball, which do you prefer?”
Your balls??
#50 by AhPek on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 8:57 pm
And if it is not a blatant display of racism by DPM,I don’t know what is.
The KT by election is a bellweather for the suitability of Najib as a PM of Malaysia.The question before the kingmakers of this election ie the about 10% or so Chinese in the constituency plus a few % of Indians is whether this man can take Malaysia out of this coming economic downturn,whether he can move Malaysia forward,whether he is PM for all malaysians OR whether he is a PM for only a select group,whether he will push Malaysia further down shit street.
#51 by voice2009 on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 9:44 pm
This current government is useless and corrupted indeed.
If anyone go to visit the kepong area in Kuala Lumpur.
You can see many African black people around in the street. Some of the them are staying here illegally.
The government is sleeping doing nothing on checking on them to avoid turn the kepong into African Village in Malaysia.
I am definitely vote for opposition because the current government is definitely is useless, they are not looking good welfare for Malaysian.
#52 by undergrad2 on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 10:07 pm
“He (Najib) is counting on the resurgence of racism to galvanise support for UMNO.” limkaput
Huh?? When did racism go anywhere for it to resurge? Are the rest of us mortal souls to believe that just because the all knowing and the infallible Limkaput says “Abracadabra” it is supposed to disappear?
#53 by undergrad2 on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 10:15 pm
“Barking dogs don’t bite.” Godfather
I will have to disagree with you here, Godfather.
Barking dogs do bite – but old dogs like Limkaput, after some twenty years in government service, and has lost most of his teeth does not and cannot bite.
#54 by Lee Wang Yen on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 10:15 pm
I have already clarified repeatedly that I’m not an Islamic scholar, but Godfather keeps saying that I am. I wonder why.
To AhPek, I didn’t say that DAP’s alliance with PAS was a greater evil than the one MCA had with UMNO. I said that DAP’s alliance with with PAS was a greater evil than MCA’s acceptance of UMNO’s declaration of Islamic State. Thus, the point about MCA’s subservience is irrelevant.
For the reason of my claim, see Imranj78’s comment on the danger of PAS’s agenda compared with UMNO’s nominal Islamic state. Both are evil, though PAS’s agenda is a greater evil.
#55 by limkamput on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 10:17 pm
Wannabe, let’s face it, you are just not discerning enough to know what i am writing about. For a while UMNO thought racist card can no longer work as manifested by March 8 election results. Well, my feeling is that they are slowly turning the thing around. Anyway it may be too difficult for you – given your failing faculty
#56 by AhPek on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 10:44 pm
But I did say Lee Wang Yen that Dap’s alliance with PAS is based on equal footing with no one being subservienct to the other whereas MCA is totally subservient to UMNO.I still don’t understand how you could make it out that MCA’s acceptance is a lesser evil compared with DAP’s alliance with PAS whose sometimes Islamic agenda is totally rejected by DAP.In this particular DAP is not succumbing to the dictates of PAS’s agenda.The key to deciding who is more acceptable has to be based on subservience to an overriding strong parner.In the case of DAP-PAS alliance,PAS hasn’t got the overall overriding strength.Therefore I don’t see your argument but if you say PAS’s agenda is a greater evil than UMNO’s islamic state then I might be agreeable to your contention.
#57 by Lee Wang Yen on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 11:20 pm
AhPek says:
‘ I still don’t understand how you could make it out that MCA’s acceptance is a lesser evil compared with DAP’s alliance with PAS whose sometimes Islamic agenda is totally rejected by DAP.’
Firstly, acceptance of UMNO’s declaration of a nominal Islamic state that has not seen any substantial change to the secular nature of our nation is a lesser evil than forming an alliance with an Islamic party with a clear agenda of establishing a fundamentalist Islamic state.
Secondly, I think you have overstated your case about DAP’s ‘total rejection’ of PAS Islamic agenda. ‘Total rejection’ doesn’t seem to be the case despite the lip service. Let me cite Imranj78. See especially the second paragraph:
‘UMNO calling Malaysia an Islamic state is just political rhetoric and does not make any difference to the country and how it is run. Its not as if UMNO wants to push for hudud laws. So there’s no difference if one supports it or not as it does not translate to anything concrete at the end of the day.
Being in alliance with a party such as PAS which has a clear `Islamic state’ agenda is a different matter altogether. DAP can say now that PR’s policies does not contain an aim to form an Islamic state, but an alliance’s policies are derived from its member parties’ individual aims. What’s the point of PAS being in PR if PR does not support PAS’ own agenda? In my view, we will see an increase in PAS’ influence in all PR states. We have seen this in Selangor with respect to the proposed alcohol sale an. We have also seen this in Penang where a dance festival organizer have had to segregate males and females. This is just the start and I have no doubt we will see more of PAS’ influence on PR states.’
When DAP made some concessions to PAS, they cited political realities. If and when they make further concessions, I will not be surprised if they continue to cite the same excuse. Political realities are what MCA and GERAKAN keep urging us to accept. I can’t. So I can support neither BN nor PR. For those who are willing to accept the so-called political realities, it’s actually a choice between BN’s or PR’s political realities. In Jeffrey’s words, it’s a choice between UMNO’s corruption and PAS’s Islamic agenda, though we don’t have to choose between their shared racism.
#58 by Godfather on Friday, 26 December 2008 - 11:54 pm
Lee Wang Yen:
You sure had me fooled – the part about you not being an Islamic scholar. I thought you were at least a part-time Islamic researcher – researching all the doom and gloom about Islam and how to bash the religion to the point of bringing up Islamic doctrines like Taqqiya. Alas, now I know you only do your research through wikipaedia.
Let’s not distract very far from this thread. Since you must have some brains to enter Cambridge, can you tell us your opinion of which is worse – the prostitute or the pimp ? I know you don’t choose between the two, but at least venture what the majority should think as the lesser evil.
#59 by Lee Wang Yen on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 12:25 am
It seems to me that one of the reasons why AhPek has difficulties accepting my contention that DAP’s alliance with PAS is a greater evil than MCA’s acceptance of UMNO’s declaration of nominal Islamic State is his mistaken view of the virtue of PR’s so-called ‘equal partnership’. Prima facie, that equal partnership seems to be much better than MCA’s subservience to BN when it comes to the issue of resisting the push for Islamic agenda.
I’m not sure how this ‘equal partnership’ is supposed to work out. On analysis, we’ll find that the partnership will either be unequal or provide a leeway for DAP’s acceptance of some form of PAS’ Islamic agenda. Let me explain.
Suppose DAP wants to push for policy X, to which PAS opposes. How should the principle of equal partnership work out in this case? Does the principle require DAP to back down and forget about X, at least for the moment, so as to show respect to the view of its equal partner, PAS (let’s call this (1))? Or does it require PAS to back down so as to respect the wish of its equal partner, DAP, to carry out policy X (2)? Or does it require DAP to come up with a watered down version of X, to which PAS should accept in the spirit of equal partnership (3)?
If the principle should be interpreted in terms of (1) xor (2) (note: ‘xor’ means ‘exclusive or’; e.g. ‘A xor B’ means ‘A or B, but not A and B’), I wonder if it is still in any meaningful sense an ‘equal partnership’. If one party always has to back down on something it deems essential or central, is there any equal partnership?
If the principle should be interpreted in terms of either ‘sometimes (1) and sometimes (2)’ or ‘(3)’, then perhaps there could be a meaningful sense of equal partnership, since one party makes some concessions and the other party makes some other concessions.
However, this also opens up a possibility for DAP to accept some form of PAS’ Islamic agenda. If equal partnership means either ‘sometimes (1) and sometimes (2)’ or ‘always (3)’, then PAS may argue that either DAP should accept some watered down version of Islamic state and its Hudud Law or make at least some concessions to a series of policies proposed by PAS to push for an Islamic state.
Given that such an equal partnership can only be equal if it renders DAP in a position of making some compromises on PAS’ agenda of Islamic State, and that PAS’ Islamic State, as AhPek is inclined to agree, is a greater evil than UMNO’s, being in alliance with PAS as an equal partner is a greater evil than MCA’s subservient acceptance of UMNO’s nominal Islamic State which is de facto secular.
Equal partnership only works in a way that retains the integrity of each of the allies when they do not have fundamentally incompatible ideologies. In a marriage of convenience, you either can’t have equal partnership or have to lose your fundamental identity.
#60 by Lee Wang Yen on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 12:43 am
I have repeatedly claimed that those quotations from various sources, which include wikipedia (it’s very unfair for Godfather to highlight only Wikipedia, as I cited from various sources), were meant to be convenient references for the non-academic discussions in this blog, and were not meant to be research materials. Godfather should not purposely ignore those repeated disclaimers, including my repeated clarifications that I’m no Islamic scholar.
I’m a philosopher of science and do not claim any expertise in Islam. If laymen in Islam and political science can discuss this issue in this blog, why can’t a scholar in a particular field discuss this issue, which is outside his expertise, as a layman? When a scholar discusses an issue outside his expertise as a layman, together with other laymen on that particular issue, why should he be ridiculed for pretending to be an expert in an area in which he is only a layman? Why should his citations be deemed as academic citations? No one claims to be an expert on Islam here. But I don’t think this means that none of us is fit to talk about whether we should accept PAS’ Islamic agenda.
#61 by de_Enigma on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 12:45 am
MCA just learned from the Boss, and has learned well to just accuse the opposition using Jump-The-Gun tactic – Bastard Tajuddin is the leading example. A big round of applause to the achievement, I must say those UMNOputras must be really proud of him.
Just in case all of you guys didn’t notice, the second tactic of ‘Delay’ also played pretty well there. The sad part is that we must carry on dreaming if we really want to know about the “PKFZ – Telling Nothing” at least not before the KT by-election.
Here we have issue of UMNO/PAS -which is bigger Evil and let me present 2 choice for you guys:
1. Proclaimed less Evil UMNO which seemed run loose for few decades (Assuming other component parties having no say – to my opinion that is), currently degraded at seemingly accelerated pace.
2. Evil Unknown PAS which somehow have to stick to Pakatan Rakyat agreement although they seemed to be greater evil (Based on their Agenda)
I would choose option 2. I believe if we need serious reforms, we have to bring in a new platform a.k.a new government. Personally i would rather be occupied with possible new problem rather that unsolved old problems which keeps repeating.
#62 by undergrad2 on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 1:19 am
Wow!! Somebody is using this blog to write his thesis!
#63 by undergrad2 on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 1:22 am
“Since you must have some brains to enter Cambridge, can you tell us your opinion of which is worse – the prostitute or the pimp?’ Godfather
That is akin to asking Limkaput to differentiate his left foot from his right. He wouldn’t be able to do that.
#64 by Jeffrey on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 1:28 am
In the high stakes battle for Kuala Terengganu parliamentary by-election, if BN’s candidate wins due to rejection by non malay voters of PAS’s candidate, Pas and its vice-president Datuk Husam Musa’s recent statement are solely to be blamed.
There is no point for Husam to qualify ‘PAS would find it “difficult” to implement Hudud under the PR coalition, because the other two coalition partners are against the implementation’ when it reaffirmed its unswerving and unwavering commitment to implement Hudud (read to establish the theocratic Islamic state) if it ever assumed power in the federal government, CONTRARY to what was agreed as common platform between PKR, DAP and PAS when they fought a united front in 8th March general election and scored success…. .
By so doing, PAS has put both PKR’s Anwar and DAP’s Kit Siang in the horns of dilemma. Anwar cannot answer why he is silent, caught between the rock and the hard place. Neither can Kit answer coherently Ong Ka Ting’s pointed attack : which is not that DAP has not been opposing PAS’s Islamic state – this, the DAP and Kit have been doing all along, on record – but what is the point if by deed and action the DAP is seen supporting PAS candidate in Kuala Terengganu after Husam’s statement?
This is the same allegation Pak Lah has faced : is there worth in talk when it does not not commensurate with action that showed another direction?
Politics is perception and voters fearful of the Theocratic Islamic state will be persuaded by OKT’s statement that DAP that opposes the theocratic agenda and yet support PAS’s candidate is striking the Faust Bargain to trade principle for power, power as in PR getting the better of BN eventually even if PAS is made stronger in the process!
To counter attack MCA & Gerakan for supporting 928 Islamic state of Dr Mahathir is only marginally helpful as a shield but not effective as a sword because the 928 Islamic state of Dr Mahathir, though not acceptable for being inconsistent with the spirit of Federal Constitution, is still not as bad in principle as PAS’s theocratic state that upon full implementation practically implies the overthrow of the entire Federal Constitution!
PAS could fight Kuala Terengganu parliamentary by-election by concentrating on the common principles of Pakatan Rakyat binding all 3 parties collaboration in first instance and concentrating its fire power against Bn’s depredations.
But PAS chooses not to. Instead, if Husam’s words are anything to go by, PAS talk of Hudud reaffirms to voters of Kuala Terengganu that Islam and PAS is the only way forward for the Malays/Muslims, practically telling non Malay/Non Muslim electors that how they feel about it is of no consequence, and then leave it to DAP to assuage their doubts and get their votes for its candidate.
This is highly irresponsible of PAS and the fact that DAP has to go along upon these terms will not only invite attack of a nature such as OKT – difficult to fend – but also the criticisms of its own supporters here like Lee Wang Yen.
#65 by dawsheng on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 1:28 am
It is not DAP’s choice to work with PAS, and that’s the power of democracy, it is the Rakyat who decides. A corrupted government can never be better than an Islamic state, and between the two, corruption is a reality and we are living in its consequences, whereby Islamic state, is nothing fear. But consider that you are already living in hell, Islamic state may not be that bad at all.
#66 by AhPek on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 1:40 am
Lee Wang Yen,
Doesn’t equal partnership also mean that nobody can have his way all the time? That nobody is a lapdog to the other in the same way as MCA is a lapdog to UMNO.UMNO being the evil can have his evil ways all the time with the backing of MCA whilst PAS being the evil cannot have his evil ways with the backing of DAP.For me this is what counts at the moment for you can have no other combination of coalition in today’s political scene other than BN or PK.In this marriage of convenience (as stated by you) nobody gets to dominate as you can see at the moment and I am happy with this position whereas you seem to say that in this marriage of convenience they have to give up their fundamental identity which is not happening.They may break up eventually but as long as they are able whilst being married to boot out BN,I am happy cos at least it has triggered change and that might snowball into something that could work for a better Malaysia unlike keeping the status quo for another 50 years BN rule which could sink the country into a depth of a failed state for which she might never recover.For such a stand,I’ll say DAP-PAS alliance is a lesser evil.
Tell me which coalition would you root for BN or PK?I need your answer to this question for your answer will definitely help me understand what your argument is all about.
#67 by Jeffrey on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 2:38 am
Dawsheng is of the opinion that a corrupted government can never be better than an Islamic state. I beg to disagree. Name me one example of an Islamic theocratic state that firstly is better than a corrupt state and how it is better and secondly which Islamic theocratic state known and in existence in the world today that is not at the same time corrupt.
#68 by dawsheng on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 2:59 am
This is like saying once PAS achieved its Islamic state agenda they automatically become corrupted and soon the country will descend into chaos. Well, nothing is impossible.
#69 by undergrad2 on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 5:39 am
“..can you tell us your opinion of which is worse – the prostitute or the pimp ?” Godfather
A male prostitute walking the streets of Kg. Attap could only hope to make a few dollars (all in a night’s work) especially when he is a retired government servant with a long service medal pinned on to his chest!
What equal partnership are you guys talking about??
#70 by vsp on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 7:25 am
One has to understand how the concept of the BN works. The BN is a den of thieves. They treat the wealth of the country as loots. Every BN contestant for power aspires to become a federal minister or a menteri besar. For that astronomical sums were spent to chase that dream. For a minister you are given control of a ministry and with it the privilege of a big budget for projects. Just look at the multi-billion projects that were launched by each ministry and see the wastages and leakages. There is an understanding among the thieves that no minister should interfere in whatever is going on in another ministry. “What is mine is mine, it’s none of your business” is the unspoken understanding. So if there is any scandal in a ministry, other ministers are supposed to help to cover it up. I scratch your back and you scratch mine. If you are not a minister, you will be compensated with other equally juicy arrangement. No wonder there are many mosquito parties that joined the BN because of this. In fact, the country is subsidizing for all the corruptions that has been legitimatized through the BN concept of sharing.
Now coming back to the MCA. Since UMNO controls everything, from the issuing of business licences to the protection from criminal prosecution, MCA knows they will lose everything if they were to spite their UMNO master. Every kingdom they and their cronies have built will come crashing down overnight.
That’s how powerful the UMNOputras have become. So the MCA have to be obedient dogs and they are hoping that fortune will turn around in favour of their master and they will get more better crumps. As Mei Fun has commented: who will feed me if I disobey my master? That’s the mentality of the MCA.
#71 by Godfather on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 8:08 am
“Name me one example of an Islamic theocratic state that firstly is better than a corrupt state and how it is better and secondly which Islamic theocratic state known and in existence in the world today that is not at the same time corrupt.” Jeffrey QC
Here we go again….pre-March 8th debate. I am not interested in writing a thesis on the merits or demerits of an Islamic state. I am not interested to know which Islamic state is better or worse than Bolehland. I only want to know readers’ answers to the issue that Kit raised in this thread: Since MCA is part of the coalition that declared Bolehland to be an Islamic state 8 years ago, and since by all accounts this Islamic state is corrupt to the core, why are people still reluctant to give the PR coalition a chance to show what it can do with federal control ? Especially since PAS, a member of PR, has openly admitted that it cannot implement hudud without the consent of its two other partners ? Why are people still saying that we should continue to support the corrupt BN just because of WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN if PR comes to power ?
What is the rationale for thinking that once PR comes to power, and if PAS manages to overrule its coalition partners to implement Hudud, that the rakyat will be unable to vote them out the next time ?
What is the rationale for thinking that once PR comes to power, then it will become as corrupt as the BN once was ?
Are we going to be like some Cambridge scholar residing in England who says “I don’t support BN or PR” with the end result that we let the status quo be ?
#72 by Lee Wang Yen on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 9:08 am
PR is no longer a viable alternative to BN. But to support neither BN nor PR does not necessarily entail status quo.
Sometimes we are forced to choose the lesser evil between two evils. But sometimes we can do something to get out of the dilemma, for example, by creating a third option.
One possibility is to urge MCA, GERAKAN, MIC, PPP etc, and various Sabah and Sarawak parties to quite BN without joining PR. They can then resist both UMNO and PAS. These parties can join forces with DAP and PKR if the latter leave the PR coalition.
#73 by Bigjoe on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 9:15 am
You know MCA is in big trouble when their leader sounds like Samy Vellu. In fact OTK begin to even look also like Samy Vellu. Its pathetic isn’t it? The Indians may not be able to get rid of their political trash but the Chinese in this country can and will….
#74 by Lee Wang Yen on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 9:32 am
oops, ‘…parties to QUIT BN…’
Sorry!
#75 by k1980 on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 9:46 am
PKR MP for Kapar Manikasavagam defected to BN? Anwar’s 916 in reverse now!
#76 by Godfather on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 10:22 am
“One possibility is to urge MCA, GERAKAN, MIC, PPP etc, and various Sabah and Sarawak parties to quit BN without joining PR. They can then resist both UMNO and PAS. These parties can join forces with DAP and PKR if the latter leave the PR coalition.” Lee Wang Yen
No wonder you are still a student. I wonder what the old horse Limkamput will say about this.
#77 by Lee Wang Yen on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 10:38 am
I have graduated and left UK. Try not to pronounce confidently on what you don’t know.
#78 by Godfather on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 10:38 am
Limkamput, is this greenhorn from Cambridge one-dimensional ?
#79 by A true Malaysian on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 10:44 am
Lee Weng San,
Third force will not be formed. Those political parties that you named cannot survive without Umno.
#80 by A true Malaysian on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 10:52 am
Umno is their backbones. They have no backbone of their own.
#81 by Godfather on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 10:54 am
The kid doesn’t understand reality. Cambridge has taught him the theoretical possibilities of life. Give him a few more years in the real world, and let him figure out for himself.
#82 by AhPek on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 11:11 am
Cambridge has certainly taught him well on how to argue logically but maybe it hasn’t taught him much about wisdom (or perhaps that has to be learned only thro passage of time) and political acumen that probably will only be obtained being in ‘the thick of things’ like what YB has been in all along.
#83 by A true Malaysian on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 11:37 am
Most of us know Hudud Laws are about stone throwing to death, cut limbs as punishment. But are these form the main part of Hudud Laws? We were being fed up this narrow view of the law by MSM. We are all victims in this sense.
RPK is right in here. Many Muslims politicians talk about Hudud Laws and yet in actual fact, they know very little. Likewise, MCA ministers like OTK also the same, know little and yet can talk so much. They are just playing politics, in RPK’s term, political prostitution.
But, what to do? This is what we call Malaysian Politics.
#84 by ch on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 11:37 am
Dear All,
My view is that MCA and other BN component parties have yet and probably will never mature above racial politics. Taking advantage to play up racial and religious sentiments to win over the Chinese or Malays is something which MCA or UMNO will never hesistate to do regardless the consequences. MCA is currently at dire straits and thirsting to regain the confidence of the Chinese voters. It is akin to the political situation where MCA lost badly in 1986 to DAP and subsequent to that debacle, MCA took advantage of the Chinese school issues in order to show its relevancy to the Chinese community.
#85 by Godfather on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 11:42 am
Can you imagine if the Americans have guys like Lee Wang Yen ?
“Nah, the Democrats are the same as the Republicans.” “Nah, change will never come to Washington.” “I neither support the Democratic party nor the Republican party. There is the possibility of a third force.”
There will be no change in Bolehland if people don’t take a chance on change.
#86 by Lee Wang Yen on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 12:06 pm
When I suggest that parties on both sides that do not agree with UMNO and PAS form a third alliance, some accuse me of ‘being a kid’. Presumably what they mean is that I do not have the wisdom to see the realities of the corrupt BN component parties such as MCA and MIC.
Well, when opponents of PAS or a PR with PAS in it urge us to face up to the realities of the fact that PR is not a viable coalition for federal government given the fundamental clash of ideologies between DAP and PAS, and given that PAS has a proven record of pushing for Islamic state, people like Godfather urge us to give PR a chance. Of course, opponents of PAS will say that those who urge us to give PR a chance do not have the wisdom to see the realities of PAS and a PR with PAS. I wonder why we should not, in Godfather’s spirit, give the proposed third force a chance. We can ask ourselves questions corresponding to Godfather’s in one of his earlier posts: ‘What is the rationale…?…What is the rationale…?…What…?’
That’s exactly the same principle involved in the dispute between the proponents and opponents of the proposed third force. So it may be good to slow down a bit when one feels an urge to accuse others of not having the wisdom to see the realities if one has to embrace a PR with PAS in it, in the face of the realities of PAS’ track record and the infeasibility of a coalition with members possessing fundamentally incompatible ideologies.
#87 by Lee Wang Yen on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 12:27 pm
My proposal: insofar as it is possible, we should try not to get into a dilemma (or try to get out of it) by creating a third option.
If after some effort this proves unworkable, we can then opt for the lesser evil between PAS (or a PR with PAS) and UMNO (or a BN with UMNO), which is the latter.
Godfather should have no problem with reverting to UMNO or BN after we have given a non-UMNO or non-BN alternative (for him, the viable alternative and lesser evil or greater good is PR) a chance, for he suggests that we can always vote PAS out ‘if PAS manages to overrule its coalition partners to implement Hudud’. When that happens, we will revert to BN, unless there is a third force.
#88 by Kelvenho on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 12:41 pm
Hudud law can only become a reality if UMNO and PAS support it.
As we already know Kelantan UMNO is supporting Hudud.
So why MCA make noise for what. Why can’t MCA make noise in front
of his big brother UMNO. I am sure the chinese people in KT will be smart enough to chose the right candidate who is against Hudud.
#89 by dawsheng on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 12:54 pm
A PAS without Islamic state agenda is just udang kering.
#90 by dawsheng on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 1:15 pm
Dancing in the streets is wrong, girls wearing miniskirt haram, boys and gals holding hands cannot, boys and boys also cannot, then you got fatwah on tomboys, who is PAS to tell me what I can or cannot do? PAS like to control these things, this so called high moral ground of PAS people is full of fetish, … they like it differently, they like the gals to cover it all up, then only they can control their temper, then only they can think straight, and that’s PAS’s Islamic state agenda.
#91 by AhPek on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 1:56 pm
‘Hudud law can only become a reality if UMNO and PAS support it,” Kelvenho.
Do your counting of total UMNO and PAS MPs first,then tell us can or not!
#92 by Jeffrey on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 7:37 pm
Godfather asked, “what is the rationale for thinking that once PR comes to power, and if PAS manages to overrule its coalition partners to implement Hudud, that the rakyat will be unable to vote them out the next time ?”
If PAS were the dominant party this PKR Triumvirate calling the shots in forming the federal govt you think it is so easy to vote them out the next time? What makes you think that the ballot box system as we know it still apply? Did PAS tell you it would? Again I like to know just an example of an Islamic theocracy that has been established that has been voted out of power.
There seem to exist an understanding about how corruption in BN works that is matched only by a total lack of understanding of what an Islamic state implies and how it works.
It is no more the parliamentary process of representative government to make laws of the people for the people and by the people.
Instead of sovereignty of the people it is the sovereigty of the laws of the Almighty that only selected people with merit, knowledge, wisdom and experience in Islamic knowledge (whether clergy or scholars) could divine, and hence fit to rule a state in which Islamic principles are embracive of all aspects of Life blurring distinction between what is private and what is public….A logical extension would be assigning in due course different weights for each voter, with Muslim having more weights as is justified since it is an Islamic state in wh ich voting has to take into acount the voter’s knowledge of the Islam.
It is difficult to reverse once established because once political Islamists control the tools of education and media in government they will embark on large scale indoctrination to ensure that majority of the faith will not turn against them.
The normal benchmarks of governance based on accountability and transparency and ch ecks and balance don’t apply. The BN still acknowledges these benchmarks though it flouts them. Islamists don’t even have to acknowledge these benchmarks or be subject to public demands that they follow them because in an Islamic state a priori they are accepted to be present being ordained by the Almighty.
To the other question, “what is the rationale for thinking that once PR comes to power, then it will become as corrupt as the BN once was ?” well it is human nature that power tends to corrupt which has to be checked, which is best checked by not only check and balance within institutions established (like free media & independent judiciary) but also by a vigilant populace applying pressure based on rationalistic principles of why certain things should not be done. This cannot happen if political Islamists are the more dominant of the PKR Triumvirate edging governance, in stages, towards an Islamic state in which rationalistic principles don’t apply or are relevant except within Islamic theological framework.
What has happened here is the sentiments against the BN are so strong that (to use an analogy) even the Devil himself will be supported by those who refuse to see if He proves indispensable to take cudgel to defeat the BN, even if He were taking all to Hell.
So what if PAS, a member of PR, has openly admitted that it cannot implement hudud without the consent of its two other partners ? If so why repeat something that is contrary to the common manifesto/understanding of PR that it had signed?
Everyone is entitled to their opinion but keep the debate on even keel: calling someone a kid or unable to understand political reality just because he is in acadamia or just because his position is not in accord with your sentiment is a cheap shot that does not advance an iota of your argument or make it any more cogent. It only debase the quality of discussion here.
#93 by monsterball on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 8:42 pm
Lee Wang Yen is trying to be too smart…talking about…” third force”.
Dr.Hsu of Gerakan..also talked third force for months.. …..gunned down by commentators….lead by yours trully…now no more talking such a force.
You see..this is a typical pro MCA/ Gerakan supporter talking ..”third force”…actually will make that force most powerful in politics.
It will become the jury and judge.. over UMNO and PR.
This cheap stunt…by a student…will not sell.
#94 by Lee Wang Yen on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 8:57 pm
I’m a university academic, not a student.
Even if I’m a student, it’s irrelevant. Please point out which part of my argument you disagree with and what the problem is. Also, saying that my proposal has been made by someone you apparently don’t like says nothing about the problem of my proposal. Deal with the argument for the proposal.
#95 by Godfather on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 9:48 pm
I was wondering when Jeffrey QC would come to the defence of his loyal lapdog Lee Wang Yen. Oddly enough, these academic individuals start complaining about cheap shots whenever their underlying racist (and possibly anti-Islamic) positions are exposed for all to see.
Yes, Jeffrey, you start with the “on the one hand, it is this, and on the other hand, it is that” position of those who can’t make up their minds and who will explore all microscopic possibilities to mask your own insecurity.
The whole world might end tomorrow, but for the moment I know which side I am on, and which side I am against. Do you ?
#96 by monsterball on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 9:50 pm
Academic with no practical experience….is a student.
Fully qualified..no experience.you are a greenhorn. Heard that before?
I disagree entirely as you are not qualified to offer far sighted proposal with real understandings of our political situation….of sufferings by the poor and helpless ..of sacrifices we made to free you.
You are basing on hear say and your conclusions…and unfortunately…you have been brainwashed…or trying to be too smart.
I deal with HOW YOU THINK….HOW YOU SAY…and HOW YOU TRY TO CONVINCE OTHERS….and today…political situation..so easy…FOR or Against UMNO and BN.
Can you clear this first?..FOR or AGAINST??
No.. if …buts or why ….please.
Arguments are made by Malaysians…so deal with personalities…is exposing you….and be done with it…understand….kiddo?
Please learn by asking questions…and learn more that way…be humble…and you may at last see why…we walk the talks…to change the government… all actually done for you.
Don’t be confused…nor sensitive with my style of writing.
You will learn more by reading and not by judging me.
I certainly can judge you.
#97 by Godfather on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 9:52 pm
Lee Wang Yen:
How many times have you voted ? Since you said you don’t support PR or support BN, can we assume you have never voted ?
How many times have you walked for a cause – any cause ? I don’t mean necessarily politics, but perhaps you may have protested against hillside development or marched against destruction of nature.
Monsterball has taken more salt than you have taken rice, kid.
#98 by monsterball on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 9:57 pm
By the way..Lee Wag Yen..have you registered.. to vote?
#99 by Godfather on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 10:15 pm
Readers of this blog will recall that just prior to the March 8 elections, there was a long debate here about DAP’s electoral understanding with PAS.
The main characters in this thread – Jeffrey QC and Lee Wang Yen – chastised DAP for “sleeping with the devil”, warning Kit and other DAP leaders of PAS’ Islamic agenda and how this could come back to haunt DAP. They quoted researchers’ articles on Islamic fundamentalism, about the perils of Islamic society, about how there isn’t a truly advanced Islamic state, about how the country is going towards its doom with the electoral pact.
Thank goodness the voters never listened to these doomsday-sayers and we now have the makings of a viable alternative to BN. Still, these naysayers are not satisfied, and continue to point out that this alternative to BN is no alternative at all. They pounce on every (mis)statement by PAS as vindication for their position, and they blow up every religious issue that is reported by the sycophantic mainstream press.
With supporters like these, who needs enemies ? Academics deal with possibilities. This country needs to deal with probabilities. I don’t think they understand the difference.
#100 by OrangRojak on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 10:22 pm
“What makes you think that the ballot box system…”
I was going to say that.
“even the Devil himself”
A controversial choice of words, but this is the crux of the matter. “Better the devil you know” would normally coach against choosing something new, because it’s unknown. A transparent coalition of parties, each championing their own supporters ideals, able to air inconsistent views in public and able to come to a mutual understanding based on rationally explained pragmatism, is the Devil you know. The devil you don’t know is the one that lets no information escape by emasculating the media.
#101 by monsterball on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 10:39 pm
Godfather….Jeffery is trying to proof he is smarter than Lee Wang Yen…..hahahahahaha
Just glancing through his long message…can anyone tell me…what the heck is he talking about?
So save your energy for more future smart alexes coming to talk nice……get you to like him….then apply..agree to disagree…than…suggest..third force…and what have you.
These are the scums of our own race.
Beware old and real educated ones.
Yes….MCA and Gerakan members……almost 100% Chinese are the hindrances to a united Malaysia Malaysian………but situation changed …and we must not allow anyone…to pull young readers to think like them.
Those two parties are actually dead and gone…but few are still trying hard to win votes.
It’s a simple battle….for or against.
And I sincerely hope Lee Wang Yen..go register to vote..and use his powerful vote properly.. .with a real sense of responsibility to Malaysians and country..not to any party..not vote based on his selfish benefits.
His choice is so simple…as…. if he is really sincere…he should support change of government…having seen and read so much.
But did he really read anything at all??
So better late than never…and any idiot will want …change of government…after more than 52 years by one.
Jeffery you say?
That’s a gas bag….blowing his own trumpet.
Actually..it is easier to deal with pro UMNO Muslims munafiks.
They will curse me …belittle me…threatened me and the more they do that..I am happy ..as I know I am right.
#102 by Godfather on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 10:49 pm
The more I read about Jeffrey pompous posting of 19.37.09 above, the more I fume at these academic pronouncements.
First, he says that it would be difficult to have free and fair elections if PAS becomes the dominant party in the triumvirate that comes to power in the federal government. Reason ? No theocratic government has ever been deposed.
Second, he says that sovereignty of the people will be usurped by sovereignty of the Almighty in the event PAS gains the upper hand and that this will be difficult to reverse as there will be “large scale indoctrination” to remain in power.
Third, he says that the system accountability and transparency with rules for checks and balances won’t apply in the event of a PAS ascension as they (the Islamists) would claim to be ordained by the Almighty.
Fourth, he says that corruption will still be prevalent because “it is human nature that power tends to corrupt” and that Islamists don’t apply rationalistic principles.
Jeffrey, do you even know what slippery slope you are on with such comments ? Why are you even on this blog ? You should be commenting for Wong Chun Wai.
#103 by OrangRojak on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 10:49 pm
Possibilities are not the domain of the academic, idle conjecture is something we can all enjoy. Since this is an open-access blog, and not a DAP MLM training resource, I would like to see differing points of view met with less hostility. I imagine most contributors who can manage the occasional “on the other hand” (a balanced opinion, as opposed to a single focus of desire, firmly grasped with both hands) are fully aware that winning in KT is a matter of strategy. Not only of strategy, but of the kind of strategy that almost any 5 year old with a rudimentary grasp of how to win games of Monopoly could formulate.
I still don’t fully understand why Malaysian parties are obliged to present themselves as “BN/PR”, “Black/White”, “Yin/Yang”, “Lingam/Yoni” or whatever. I understood that in most countries that pretend to democracy and free elections, the parties campaign on distinctive policies and form a coalition if they absolutely have to, but only after the votes have been counted. It seems to me that campaigning as 1 of 2 monolithic parties “Same” and “Different” is going to lead to a dumbing-down of politics when it is already hardly better than “Vote nice suit / vote nice man”. Voter apathy is an apparent risk.
There is a vote to be won, and perhaps only one brain-dead way to do it. But if the means to achieve the end is “the same siht, only we did it better”, some of us probably won’t be cheering quite as loud as we possibly could.
#104 by monsterball on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 11:07 pm
Godfather…Jeffery is talking like an UMNO or any BN member.
He is right!!
DAP dare to sleep with the devils….as DAP is so powerful..so popular that even the devil need to obey DAP…or else.
You see…DAP trying to save a devil like PAS..from making wrong moves…is smart and good politics..as long as DAP decisions..are for the benefits of all Malaysians.
And Malaysians keep trusting ad respecting DAP more and more.
Mahathir even said.. DAP is a Chinese political party.
You mean Mahathir cannot spell out DAP..”.Democratic Action Party” properly? What is UMNO..MCA and MIC…mean??
Again I write this for young readers like Lee and Jeffery..to understand….don’t be fools.
Dirty politics stated by UMNO and BN…on going….and yet…they expect DAP to be all good and saintly?
Learn this ….words….”ULTERIOR MOTIVES”.
What is the ulterior motives….when ever you say or do anything.
It’s conscience checking words.
I dare say…DAP ulterior motives….are totally sincere and smart move to win freedom for Malaysians.
So let those young buggers talk as much as they like…but we must battle them…as truths always win.
You and others are doing a great job. Keep it up.
#105 by OrangRojak on Saturday, 27 December 2008 - 11:50 pm
Not totally off-topic – in The Star’s “DAP outlines objections to PAS plan for hudud laws”:
http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2008/12/23/nation/20081223202828&sec=nation
What judgement is Karpal Singh referring to when he says:
– is a record available online anywhere? Maybe our friends at digitallibrary can dig something up.
And if that decision carried any weight at all, why wasn’t the opportunity taken to adjust the vague language in the Constitution?
#106 by Jeffrey on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 2:12 am
Godfather said “Jeffrey, do you even know what slippery slope you are on with such comments ? Why are you even on this blog ? You should be commenting for Wong Chun Wai.”
Is there any prerequisite or pre-eligibility or conditions in this blog before one can comment? If so what are they? Please state.
Because of what I said about the PAS’s position on the Islamic State, I should be commenting for Wong Chun Wai?
Conme come don’t talk like a child.
Just like the other comment “…..but for the moment I know which side I am on, and which side I am against. Do you ?….”
Of course I know that you know which side you are on – PR’s side (including PAS).
So do I – but on the side of the truth, as I see it, and the extent it can help Malaysia.
It may not be your truth. That is however no excuse for you to hurl insults at persons whom you do not agree. Can you not disagree in a civil and a rational way without running people down when what they say displease you?
are you having a problem discussing an issue dispassionately?
Come plump it out, it is in your words “The more I read about Jeffrey pompous posting of 19.37.09 above, the more I fume at these academic pronouncements……..”.
Your fuming makes it no more or less academic. It is only your opinion. I don’t fume. I find what you say and how you react most entertaining. :)
#107 by Jeffrey on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 2:46 am
However I must say your fuming has a downside. It generates words like “lap dog” “kid” etc that you describe other posters which has been your consistent trade mark of attacking the messenger as a way of attacking the message or a posting that you find unacceptable or untrue to you. Is there anyone else here who disagree with your viewpoint would however disparage you as “kid”, not in touch with reality, lap dog etc to argue and convince other of his point?
I don’t know whether in resorting to such an intellectually dishonest method (of attacking messenger in order to discredit the message), it is attributable to congenital arrogance, dogmatism or plain trying to insult the intelligence of readers here and rabble rouse their emotions.
#108 by Onlooker Politics on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 3:38 am
The comments contributed by the readers of this blog, whether they are supporting view, dissident view or dissenting view, in response to Uncle Kit’s call for renounciation of Dr. Mahathir’s “929 Declaration of an Islamic State in Malaysia” are very informative.
However, most commentators failed to present a strong argument on why an “Islamic State” in Malaysia could possibly turn out to be evil for the Malaysians.
The founding father of the United States, especially the famous constitutionalist like Thomas Jefferson, had been able to lay the foundation for a “Secular State” in the U.S. by introducing the concept of Separation of Church and State into the U.S. Constitution.
However, those MPs from either MCA or DAP have not been able to do their homework in order to come up with a persuasive concept of Separation of Mosque and State after the long-lingering argument has been carried out on the weary issue of Islamic State in Malaysia. I am really disappointed with this inadequacy in Malaysian Politics.
I feel even much more disappointed with the absurd argument of someone who claims to be the Cambridge Academician, which suggests that it is alright to trade for the short-term political gain by giving support to the “929 declaration” at the expense of the political principle of advocating a secular state. Based on this argument, the political stand will swing towards MCA and move away from DAP simply because it is absurdly argued that UMNO’s Islamic State is a lesser evil than PAS’s Islamic State. Alas! What a big logical fallacy we find in this ambiguous argument! Where does the proponent of this “lesser evil” assumption stand now? Is he a good guy or a bad guy?
I think the biggest threat to the secularism of Malaysia is not so much coming from the proponents of theocratic Islamic State as most people perceive, but it is largely coming from some naive but try-to-be-smart so-called social elites who do not even know where to stand upon as the foothold for their political belief, if they do have a poltical belief!
Godfather and Monsterball are probably right in saying that there is no possibility for the existence or survival of a third choice (Political Independent) in Malaysian Politics. However, I have yet to listen to them on the rationale which would justify teaming up with the devil in order to grasp the power for good purpose, whatever the purpose could be! Why in the first place did DAP agree to accept PAS? Does the administrative power really makes meaningful life to DAP? Does the end itself really justify the means? Would the DAP wise men please tell me the answer?
#109 by monsterball on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 6:59 am
Onlooker Politics is looking for a religious matter…which vast majority Malaysians are really not interested…Islamic State…Circular State…hudud laws…and what not.
If h is interested to know all the details..he should listen to RPK’s speech at the Bar Council and the write ups by him at his blog……Malaysia-Today.
Go battle RPK..if you disagree.
Like I said…UMNO fish votes with races and religion….so out-dated.
Is Onlooker Politics writer…interested in out-dated stuffs?
But if he want my opinions….all religious guidances are good for mankind.
It is mankind using religions ..twist them to control the minds..that are sinful.
Quite alot lot…….but still a great minority…muslims minds are being controlled successfully by UMNO and PAS for years….and these will confused them further.
Onlooker…..you can say…Godfather and I will not divert LKS”s blog to please you….but we know who you will vote for….don’t we?
Waste of time. What a bloody fool
#110 by Lee Wang Yen on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 7:02 am
I think Onlooker Politics has either misread me or ignored some of my posts. As it is clearly shown in my comments here, I don’t accept MCA’s acceptance of the declaration. I reject both BN and PR. It is for this reason that I was chastised by Godfather and his friends. I say that UMNO’s declaration of Islamic state and PAS’s Islamic state agenda are both evil, though the former is a lesser evil. When we are forced to choose between two evils when these are the only available options, we have no choice but to choose the lesser one. But I argue that in this particular case, there is no need to choose between these two evils, for we can attempt to create a third option to avoid or get out of the dilemma.
Jeffrey and I did discuss and cite articles about secularism and the importance of the separation between church and state in a series of threads just before the 2008 general election, as referred to by Godfather in one of his earlier posts here. Dr. Ng Kam Weng, a Malaysian, has done some research in this area and given talks on this topic. I seem to have a vague impression that one of his talks was advertised in this blog.
Discussing issues in this blog gives you some idea of what it looks it to discuss things in our parliament, where we find MPs talking like bullies and attacking people rather than points.
I do hope to have a better understanding of issues like the distinction between ‘probabilities’ and ‘possibilities’, as my current research has to do with probabilistic inference in science. But I’m truly amazed by how some people are so ready to assert confidently as facts things that they do not know about a person – e.g. that he is a student, that he resides in UK,…etc.
#111 by monsterball on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 7:20 am
Look at that kiddo…Jeffery needling Godfather to battle him.
I totally agree with Godfather.
We do have few smart university students here..obviously MCA or UMNO guys….trying to expose DAP weaknesses.
I will do exactly like Godfather….expose them.
That’s enough.
Let them yell till next election.
They are desperate to debate on subjects…that Pakatan Rakyat won votes gunning them down….exposing them….last election.
That’s enough. We are riding on high ground.
These desparados are trying to be heroes for deadwoods.
Let those shameless ignorant fools ……or a small handful of such smart university students….put on a soap box..and yell at the streets.
After all…..they are the future most educated people of Malaysia.
And I bet you..if you carry the balls of UMNO and BN..with your speeches…policeman will give you time.
There dare not be that brave!! As that will expose their faces..and their balls will start shrinking.
Love to hear them talk like at at Petaling Street……hahahhahahaha
Aiyayayaya…….such lost in the woods.. kiddos here.
Sad for them…..but like I said….read….listen…..ask questions and learn.
Islamic issues?….not interested. Next question?
#112 by Lee Wang Yen on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 7:25 am
Who claimed to be a univesity student here?
#113 by monsterball on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 7:40 am
Oh…….I see….Lee writes.. to get knowledge for his thesis.
How smart,
Well young man..you pick the wrong time…wrong place …wrong situations…wrong people..{not us…UMNO MCA/Gerakan guys..are the wrong people}…..wrong conditions..wrong atmosphere….on and on and on.
I can sincerely advise you….if you do researches…observed..you will see…fear factors applied by UMNO….ISA used to shut mouth…not catch communists….billions taken and gave out to UMNO cronies….talk race and religion dirty out-dated politics….to disunite Malaysians…are great actors….never sincere……most cunning..corrupted lot.
Treat Malaysians like animals with tear gas and water cannon treatments for no reasons…hoping to create anger…and arrest them.
Five Indians arrested under ISA…not communists…..but dare to speak against their giovernment.
What type of democracy we have..young men?
So all young universirt6y students…are these facts or fictions??
Go conclude….make up your mind…for or against UMNO and BN…and your thesis is there so easy to put out.
But if you got lousy political lecturers pro UMNO or BN….alot depend on your god gifted commonsense and power of understanding.
No one can help you now…..maybe after 13th election…you will understand more.
#114 by Lee Wang Yen on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 7:48 am
I’m not a university student.
You clearly didn’t get the point I made to Godfather: it is risky to ridicule someone of being ignorant about the distinction between possibilities and probabilities when you do not know him. For all you know, he may be an expert in this area.
#115 by monsterball on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 7:54 am
hhmmm Lee said he is a university acadamic.
Is he saying he is a lecturer?
You see..no matter how smart..how excellent you have mastered the English language…no one understands your message..means you are a lousy writer. You SAID..YOU are writing a thesis. So..you are a student la.
My message to him…fell on deaf ears.
Am I talking to a man from the moon?
#116 by monsterball on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 7:58 am
Lee Wang Yen….If you keep on talking in riddles….maybe you should apply for next Batman movie.
With loving kindness I write to you….and you give back..ambiguous reply?
You have no respect for the elders.
Go to hell with you.
#117 by Lee Wang Yen on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 7:59 am
Did I say that I was writing a thesis?
I said that I was engaged in some research. University academics are involved in research.
#118 by Godfather on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 8:18 am
“Intellectually dishonest” methods ? Calling someone a lapdog (and clearly Lee Wang Yen is Jeffrey’s lapdog if someone had been following his postings for the past 12 months) is not wrong. Empirical evidence, as the academics would know.
You want kids’ gloves, go somewhere else. This is a blog for men who care, not for men who spew theories and talk in riddles.
#119 by Lee Wang Yen on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 8:21 am
I was indeed surprised. Plain words like ‘university academics’ are taken as riddles!
When you misunderstood a plain word, just admit it. Don’t accuse others of talking in riddles.
#120 by monsterball on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 8:25 am
I am saying your whole message…you dumbo.
You guys really sucks!!
#121 by Godfather on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 8:27 am
Re my posting of 22.49.18 above, all Jeffrey did was to attack (or ridicule) the word “fume”. He did not dispute the summary of what I said was clearly a racist and irrational position of this so called “truth-seeker”. Let me regurgitate Jeffrey’s position and let readers judge whether such a person should be deemed to be “dangerous”:
First, he says that it would be difficult to have free and fair elections if PAS becomes the dominant party in the triumvirate that comes to power in the federal government. Reason ? No theocratic government has ever been deposed.
Second, he says that sovereignty of the people will be usurped by sovereignty of the Almighty in the event PAS gains the upper hand and that this will be difficult to reverse as there will be “large scale indoctrination” to remain in power.
Third, he says that the system accountability and transparency with rules for checks and balances won’t apply in the event of a PAS ascension as they (the Islamists) would claim to be ordained by the Almighty.
Fourth, he says that corruption will still be prevalent because “it is human nature that power tends to corrupt” and that Islamists don’t apply rationalistic principles.
Nah, his pronouncements are not only dangerous and extreme, this person has no place in a multi-racial society.
#122 by Godfather on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 8:36 am
“So do I – but on the side of the truth, as I see it, and the extent it can help Malaysia. ” Jeffrey QC
The truth ? Most of what you said are mere postulations. About “what ifs”. About applying global precedents to future possibilities in Bolehland. “Show me a theocracy that has been overthrown.” “Show me a first world theocratic country.”
What you guys say about PAS and Islam cannot help Malaysia but aggravate it.
#123 by monsterball on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 8:38 am
hi smart ass…’academic’…are you a student or lecturer?
If you are a lecturer….how many years have you lectured?
I got few applicants passed of with marketing degrees…and straight away…want to be Sales Manager……..no practical experiences…no proven..management skills!!
God help those University students studying under a greenhorn lecturer.with an unsound mind.
No wonder great lecturers Malaysia resign and find careers elsewhere.
How to teach guys who are most half pass sixes..bull dosed to Universities..by UMNO..to please parents and get votes?
So Lee….if you are a lecturer..don’t be too proud of it..in most of our TONG SAMPAH universities. I think you are smart ..trying to be ambiguous.
#124 by Godfather on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 8:43 am
We have a by-election on Jan 17. We want to honour our commitment to PR. We want to campaign for the PAS candidate. All that Ong Tee Keat and Wong Chun Wai want to do is to sow the seeds of discord between PAS and DAP, the topic of this thread.
All that Jeffrey and Lee Wang Yen have done is to add to whatever little discord there is between two oddball partners. With their racist remarks and their air of superiority.
Does the DAP need friends like these ?
#125 by Lee Wang Yen on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 8:43 am
I’m surprised by the need to explain plain words like ‘university academics’ here. The word refers to university teaching or research staff, and is not usually used to refer to students, not even graduate or postgraduate students.
#126 by Lee Wang Yen on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 8:45 am
DId I say that I was an academic in a Malaysian university?
#127 by Godfather on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 8:45 am
Monsterball, I don’t think the kid has even voted or registered to vote in Bolehland.
#128 by Lee Wang Yen on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 8:46 am
When DAP voiced their disagreements with PAS, people praised their democracy. When DAP supporters voiced their dissents, they are deemed as enemies.
#129 by Godfather on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 8:50 am
Are you a DAP supporter, Lee ? Have you registered to vote ?
#130 by Godfather on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 8:52 am
Or maybe we should call you a “DAP dissenter who has yet to vote”. Is this an accurate observation ?
#131 by monsterball on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 8:56 am
The wind of change is strong and clear.
If DAP have friends like Lee and Jeffery..they don’t need enemies.
But these are children…starting to earn a living…with braggart attitudes
Hi kiddos…life is full of struggles. The more you suffer .the more you will learn..to be smart.
It is trying to be arrogant and too smart…thinking your degrees are the passport to success…that will kill you one day.?
You are dreaming a fool’s dream.
Remember this….productivity…to be recognized and respected….these are the magic words to possibly get you somewhere…provided you do work for a company…playing company politics too.
Certainly universities…are playing race politics..in Malaysia.
You never answer my questions.. I ask….are you a registered voter and how many years you are lecturing.
Hi..we do not owe you a living..you smart no manners young punks.
Answer my points…or else…you are actually the present clowns in this blog.
I hope you are not Malaysian Chinese…to shame us.
#132 by monsterball on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 9:09 am
I mean..you should not work for a company that play company politics.
Most old international companies have no time for guys that can talk .with no productivity results..except some universities that may year mark you for promotions..if you learn the art ..to carry UMNO and BN balls.
Not an easy art to learn…but vast majority Malaysians have principles in life…that despises
But all these will change soon.
So change your arrogant attitudes and learn to be nice to the people trying to teach you,
So many Muslims so smart to lean from the devil Mahathir.
Do you want to learn from…Ong Tee Kiat and Koh Tsu Khoon?
ARE YOU NUTS???
#133 by Jeffrey on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 9:10 am
Godfather is right that I did not dispute his summary of what I said because there was nothing to dispute in his summary, and the reason for that is that he has merely described it as a racist and irrational position without explaining and making me understand why that is so.
Neither has he applied any of the global precedents on theocratic Islamic state to contradict any of what I said. The Islamic theocratic state is not PAS’s original invention : it is inspired from what is happening in large swathes of Middle East after Ayaatollah Khomeini’s Iranian revolution.
So if we are not using as reference what is happening there, how could a better understanding be forged of what would here if PAS could successfully implement its agenda here?
However this is not the immediate issue. Lets not be distracted by another red herring.
The immediate issue that impedes discussion of this Islamic state and other issues, is Godfather’s “consistent trade mark of attacking the messenger as a way of attacking the message or a posting that he finds unacceptable or untrue to him”.
Calling someone who happens to agree with another person on an issue a lap dog – and citing “empirical evidence” from past postings of such convergence of view – is one glaring example of this dishonest method of argument.
Now I may have to add another to the list : “Labelling”. He has labelled what I said are mere “postulations”. They are no more postulations than that which you say here, for example, that if PAS manages to overrule its coalition partners to implement Hudud, that the rakyat will be unable to vote them out the next time” in respect to which I have asked you how did you ever come to know that the same rules would be allowed to apply then, and whether PAS told you so.
However instead of responding issue by issue, you prefer to go on a tirade of “lap dog” etc .
If I were to descend to your line of argument and thinking, then judging from the empirical evidence of various postings in this thread I would have to call our monsterball, who agrees with everything you say, as also your “lap dog” – but do I compliment you or monsterball with such imitation? :)
#134 by Jeffrey on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 9:14 am
Correction on typo error : “that the rakyat will be able (not unable) to vote them out the next time”
#135 by Godfather on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 9:20 am
Counselor, every time you post something, we can hear Lee in the background barking “woof, woof”. I think in canine language, it means “yes, yes”.
#136 by OrangRojak on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 9:20 am
Onlooker Politics: “… the biggest threat to the secularism of Malaysia is … from some … who do not even know where to stand …”
It must be comforting to be able to make such a clear distinction between religion and political ideology. But I think you overestimate the threat from people so open minded as to allow all their thoughts to escape. Just because a person considers all possible meanings and options does not mean that they lie in the street racked by doubt, covered by yesterdays newspapers, hoping that someone will throw them a scrap to stave off starvation.
If LKS and his Forty Friends have something in common, it is that we all have access to the Internet and we know how to navigate it. At some point we must have put aside our doubts and acted out of expediency when we acquired education, families, friends and wealth. We will do it again whenever we vote. In between opportunities to determine our future prosperity, why not test our doubts? Criticism is a powerful tool for improvement and possibly what separates developed nations from those not developing quite so quickly.
Doubting the brands of secular politics in Malaysia is all we have. When all is said and done, there are very few choices available. Just as protest should be the right of the unrepresented minority in a democracy, so should the expression of doubt be the right of voter who knows he will cast his vote for the least evil.
Lee Wang Yen: “As it is clearly shown in my comments here …”
Maybe I struggle occasionally with modern English – I don’t always follow your point in your comments. I don’t think you’re saying anything I want to argue against, but clarity should really be left for your readers to decide. You’re absolutely right to suggest a third way, but your dinner companions are looking at a menu of two choices and wondering if you will order before the restaurant closes. I also occasionally find myself in KFC wishing for pizza. In your place, I would flip a coin. Not voting gives the eventual winner a F/A (For votes divided by against votes) share of your support. Non-voters voting on a coin flip reduce the tacit support for the winner (but not the outcome, obviously). I clearly recall friends, family and strangers even saying “vote New Labour, we must get the Tories out” in the 90s. They’re all quiet now: they got the same thing with a different name, acting with their mandate. If only there was an option on the ballot slip to record a ‘vote against’ – would that make principled voting in a Malaysian election easier?
#137 by monsterball on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 9:20 am
Becareful Jeffery…Don’t call me anybody’s lap dog and disturb a sleeping tiger.
You are certainly a greenhorn…trying to play…. agree to disagree in politics.
In life…OK…but in politics..for or against.
We are riding high.
Not need punks like you to be too smart.
#138 by monsterball on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 9:26 am
Oh my God…DAP and his forty thieves….third force stuff..says OrangRojak.
These three blind mice….should apply for James Bond new version….’Dr.No”
These are our present clowns..enjoy them.
#139 by Godfather on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 9:29 am
OrangRojak:
It is always a case of whether we see the bottle as half full or half empty. Those who see the bottle as half empty would want us to do nothing while they postulate the possibilities, then retreat into the shell where we came from. Flipping a coin is the last thing on their minds.
#140 by Jeffrey on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 9:43 am
Just like asking Lee Wang Yen voted or registered to vote as if that is either a condition for eligibility to comment here or a material in judging the validity of what one comments here: it is the same kind of irrelvancy by which you repeatedly engage in discourse whenever you run out of any substantial point to rebut that which you have a compulsive need to do so.
The whole point is asking him whether he has to registered to vote is to make an issue of motives or to disqualify him from saying that which displeases you along lines that if you don’t vote where is the commitment to make things better here to comment here?
Again this is “empirical proof” of your same intellectually bankrupt tactic of discrediting what people/messenger say by attacking and labelling persons/messenger as lap dog, or labelling comments as racist or irrational (without showing how) – don’t forget that the easiest thing in the world is just dismiss what some one said as racist, irrational or stupid without having tio show why or how – or questioning a person’s credential to comment asking whether he has registered to vote – anything irrelevant but the relevant issue of the factual truth or error, argumentative validity or error in what he said.
We respond to the validity of your comments, no one ask you or is it relevant to ask whether you are a Malaysian or some Syrian or Iranian.
#141 by monsterball on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 9:56 am
Hi young men…you can never see the bottle is half full…because you have no opportunities to see real free and democratic lifestyles of developed world….thus you think the bottle is actually full. Those citizens from the real full bottle..are ten times smarter than you…not that you are idiots…but UMNO made you one…with the support of MCA ..MIC and Gerakan.
We are going all out to fill the bottle for you!!.
You can thank me 20 years later…when I am dead and gone.
Such is life….by clowns like you…so ungrateful….so cunning and so ambiguous.
#142 by monsterball on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 10:18 am
Why am I such a fool talking to unregistered voters?
But my objective is partly to battle them..to let young Malaysians learn…especially productivity..to be recognized….not enough…..must be respected.
And if you are trying to be a first time business man…..sell the best…..be the best..not second best.
Be trusted by staffs..financial institutions and customers.
Want to make a million..not easy…….but not impossible too.
The best brains in the world are Americans,..Indians and Chinese.
Learn how they become multi millionaires.
Infact….learn how Malaysians become instant multi millionaires.
Identify the political ones..and ignore them.Those millionaires are a bunch of con men….cheaters and will sell their daughters to win favours from UMNO.
Just look at Bill Gates…and back home…Selangor Pewter…Genting…Yeo Hup Seng….Hong Leong..so many….all old companies..just to name afew.
Study how a person or company become rich and successful…and you will observed few distinct characteristics…that they know their trade…work day and right….down to earth ad humble realistic people.
Why waste your time…trying to poison others minds in politics?
It’s dealing with lives and people. It’s no laughing matter.
It’s first time…full bottle of water to you is possible.
Help and fill it too.
Are you all married with children??
#143 by monsterball on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 10:23 am
Not registered…no married….not yet succeed in life…talking Malaysians affairs???
Malaysia memang Boleh!!
#144 by Godfather on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 10:28 am
We are not saying that unregistered voters have no right to comment in this blog. Heck, we even allow Kasim Amat and Zak Hammaad to post their red herrings on this blog. All we are saying is that you should not be so sure of your position if you are just a kid with no understanding of political reality, or if you have nothing at stake to take a position either for or against the corrupt regime that is BN. Do not mask your inability (for whatever reasons) to vote with the excuse of “I am undecided because I am neither for BN nor for PR” and then in the next breath, condemn DAP for going to bed with PAS.
#145 by monsterball on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 10:31 am
hi …We old buggers …that dare to walk the talks and be prepared to die.
You dare or not?
You walk infront….prepare to .die first.
Show me you have guts.
But balls also not ripen to face fatherhood….so follow our backs.be protected…but dare to walk the talks la…for your unborn children.
If you are actually a possible father to be..please don’t throw your baby to the dustbin.
Give him/her to me. I will raise that baby.. ….until you are ready to take him/her back.
#146 by Godfather on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 10:35 am
This thread is about Ong Ta Kut making use of his crony Wong Chun Wai to mislead or truncate DAP’s stand against Hudud and telling DAP to boycott the KT by-election. Knowing the racist views of Jeffrey and Lee, we can infer that they are in support of Ong Ta Kut’s view, and that DAP should boycott the KT by-election because PAS is the greater devil compared to UMNO.
Don’t tell us you don’t support the BN or PR. Don’t tell us the baloney that you are espousing the truth. The truth is that you are giving BN all the ammunition that it needs to discredit the DAP. Yet, you still call yourselves DAP supporters.
#147 by monsterball on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 10:42 am
But 90% are young buggers walking…to protect we old bugger like me.
They are from Universities..from very rich families…from the poorest of the poor..ALL..walking… as Malaysians.
How nice..how wonderful.
Do you have the balls to walk with us…even if you are not registered voter ?
I guess you all got cold feet….real bloody cowards…so keep UMNO and BN…can live peacefully…second class citizen…never mind…hope for th best..to get to know….who you will know….and not what you know..to get rich..or a comfortable working life.
hi Malaysia is welknown to produce Tong Sampah graduates.
So you are lecturers….all three of you???
#148 by Godfather on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 10:44 am
“….this is “empirical proof” of your same intellectually bankrupt tactic of discrediting what people/messenger say by attacking and labelling persons/messenger as lap dog, or labelling comments as racist or irrational (without showing how) – don’t forget that the easiest thing in the world is just dismiss what some one said as racist, irrational or stupid without having tio show why or how…” Jeffrey
Any rational person reading your postulations on PAS and Islam will know what I mean by your being racist, irrational, and downright dangerous.
We all know that the extreme right of the DAP has an agenda to ensure that DAP withdraws from PR and gives up the various state governments if necessary. This position is well documented for the past 12 months, and it looks like the extreme right wing faction is trying to make a comeback.
#149 by Godfather on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 10:47 am
One of them is a loyar who starts with “the world is falling down, the world is falling down” and another is his lapdog who says “I agree, I agree”.
#150 by monsterball on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 10:48 am
yes yes yes…Godfather….I must make it clear.
We need all Malaysians..that can talk sense..for or against…registered or not registered voters..never mind…talk as much as they like.
Like I said….to them…get use to my style and learn something.
#151 by Godfather on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 11:04 am
Five thousand years of Chinese history is well documented with such people. People with no backbone, scholars who talk endlessly about possibilities, people who did NOTHING to change the course of Chinese history. People who keep repeating “On the one hand, it is this and on the other hand, it is that” only to find that they jerked themselves off to death !
Thank goodness March 8 showed the people what can be achieved if we make a stand together.
#152 by Jeffrey on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 11:31 am
God father says, “We all know that the extreme right of the DAP has an agenda to ensure that DAP withdraws from PR and gives up the various state governments if necessary….we can infer that they are in support of Ong Ta Kut’s view, and that DAP should boycott the KT by-election because PAS is the greater devil compared to UMNO…”
I don’t recall I have taken that position extrapolated by Godfather in anything I said.
Again I have to redirect and reiterate that my issue here is the way Godfather argues his position not by rebutting the counter party’s arguments on merits but by resorting to labelling and making perojative references and inferences of the counter party whom he disagrees.
#153 by Godfather on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 11:45 am
You don’t recall, counselor ? You want me to dig up some evidence from the archives ?
The problem with you is that whenever you say “on the one hand, it is this and on the other hand, it is that” you only confuse yourself. Most of the time, you will find that both of your hands are holding only on to one thing – and if you don’t know what that “one thing” is, ask your lapdog. If Cambridge can’t give an answer, Undergrad2 will gladly give you the answer.
#154 by undergrad2 on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 11:56 am
Who called for me??
#155 by Godfather on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 12:05 pm
A couple of confused guys need your help !
#156 by vsp on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 12:07 pm
You all are talking about ‘greater’ or ‘lesser’ evil here. It’s so academic. Now we have an immediate evil and that is UMNO. Remove it now and we can talk further.
#157 by Jeffrey on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 12:11 pm
Godfather you have in your last posting just provided ’empirical proof’ of what I said about you. There is no need for me to respond further. It is wasting the time and bandwidth here.
#158 by undergrad2 on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 12:13 pm
I believe PR needs help. I’m not sure if they need my help!
All this in-fighting between the coalition members bodes ill for the future of the Coaltion. Many feel it is going to happen sooner than later but few expect it to happen this early in the game.
PR leaders need a national pow-wow behind closed doors to thrash out the issues and not wash their dirty linen in public.
Limkaput might smell the dirty linen and thinking nobody is looking steal them to use for himself. We don’t want that!
#159 by Godfather on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 12:14 pm
Undergrad2:
You’ve chased away my old friend Limkamput (again!) so the only other person I could think of who could assist with my question above would be you.
#160 by undergrad2 on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 12:22 pm
Jeffrey and this Lee fella deals too much in hypotheticals.
You don’t need me. [ deleted ]
#161 by Godfather on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 12:23 pm
“Yes, DAP’s (repeated) alliance with PAS is a greater evil than MCA’s acceptance of UMNO’s declaration of Islamic state. DAP should not campaign for PAS in KT.”
Lee Wang Yen said the above yesterday. Supported by his counsel, Jeffrey.
Boot out UMNO first ? No way, these clowns want DAP to exit PR first. They would rather live with the proven corruption in UMNO than to live with the possibilities under a PAS alliance.
In short, they are agreeing with what Ong Ta Kut is saying in the STAR.
#162 by Godfather on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 12:30 pm
– deleted –
#163 by undergrad2 on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 12:32 pm
It is ideology vs pragmatism.
PAS and DAP have always been strange bedfellows, unable and unwilling to consummate the marriage. But who says you must consummate before it could be deemed a marriage?
#164 by undergrad2 on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 12:35 pm
– deleted –
#165 by Godfather on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 12:39 pm
Empirical evidence would suggest that the marriage with little chance of consummation would be headed for greater disasters down the road – so say the academics.
#166 by undergrad2 on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 12:42 pm
– deleted –
#167 by Godfather on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 12:44 pm
I absolutely love the lecture from the Cambridge guy about the principle of equality, as I am sure some other readers do. I love the explanation about equality not being (a) or (b), but having to be (a), (b) or (c) as then (c) could be the compromise. Someone should just explain what happened to (d), (e) and (f) which is already part of BN’s makeup.
#168 by undergrad2 on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 12:49 pm
Don’t listen too much to these academic types if I were you. Don’t know about Jeffrey but this Lee fella is certainly looking for solutions all iin the wrong places.
#169 by undergrad2 on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 12:50 pm
He is doing what we expect him to do i.e. teaching everybody the logic of reasoning.
#170 by undergrad2 on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 12:53 pm
– deleted –
#171 by Godfather on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 12:55 pm
This Lee fella will soon find that the solution is in his hands….
#172 by vsp on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 5:30 pm
Lee Wang Yen:
You are just like Chandra Mushapha. Talk a lot about theories and logic. Perfect on paper but lousy on practical terms.
Look at the mamak Chandra: he was given the chance to implement what he talked but it all turn out to be hokum. He was kicked out of PKR and he became a very bitter man.
Lee, are a plant of the MCA to hookwink commentators on this blog? I wonder
#173 by undergrad2 on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 5:37 pm
Godfather,
Whatever happened to François-Marie Arouet. Francois who?? You may know him as Voltaire?
-snipped –
#174 by undergrad2 on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 5:39 pm
Vsp,
Lee is not a plant. He is a human being.
#175 by Godfather on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 5:47 pm
The latest:
Lee is going to emulate Lee Kuan Yew in creating a third force in Malaysian politics. Go to the thread before this. He will team up with Jeffrey to woo all anti-PAS voters. Their party is called the Anti Theocratic Party.
undergrad2: what has Voltaire got to do with the censor board ?
#176 by vsp on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 5:47 pm
Sorry,
Lee, are you a plant of the MCA…
#177 by limkamput on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 6:34 pm
I see that my good name is being mentioned here and there even though I was busily earning a living unlike this fortunate fellow who just have to go on leveraging on the bankrupt US system to suck the world dry.
To you fellows, listen up good: it does not matter whether it is 929 Islamic State or Hudud, they should all be shafted for good. Which one should go first, I don’t really care. I just know that BOTH of them have to go, the sooner they are laid to rest the better. This country “chia pa siew eng” (I think our stomach is too full), that is why we are forever indulging in all the good for nothing notion about god and religion as if they are going to make a big difference in our life. Religions have been used and reused for political and self interests reasons for centuries and yet somehow we never seem to get it. I see hypocrites and cheats everywhere among the religious institutions. Please keep what your believe private. You are a bloody hypocrite if you impose your religious belief on others. I say this without any qualm, listen up.
#178 by voice2009 on Sunday, 28 December 2008 - 7:58 pm
In Islamic State, non-islam may classified worse than second class citizen, they may classified as the emeny of the state.
It will be unfair to those non-islam citizen definitely.
Don’t try even one, once it converted it will never be any return just like those non-islam converted to islam.
Be warned.
#179 by undergrad2 on Monday, 29 December 2008 - 6:14 am
Limkaput,
We are up and listening!
#180 by undergrad2 on Monday, 29 December 2008 - 6:37 am
Godfather Says:
Yesterday at 12: 55.48
This Lee fella will soon find that the solution is in his hands….”
Yes, that would be when he is standing in front of the urinal.
#181 by undergrad2 on Monday, 29 December 2008 - 6:41 am
“voice2009 Says:
Yesterday at 19: 58.34
In Islamic State, non-islam may classified worse than second class citizen, they may classified as the emeny of the state.”
Which state?? Penang, Selangor, Trengganu, Kelantan?
#182 by ctc537 on Monday, 29 December 2008 - 9:48 am
undergrad2,
You have misread what “voice2009” writes. ‘enemy of the state’ simply means enemy of the country.
#183 by undergrad2 on Monday, 29 December 2008 - 12:28 pm
Just pulling his leg, ctc537.