A Fatwa Against Yoga? And How Would This Reflect on Muslims?


By Farish A. Noor

Since I became an activist at the age of nineteen, I have spent more than two decades of my life defending Muslims and the image of Islam. During my twenty-two years of living in Europe, I must have attended hundreds of conferences, seminars, public debates and lectures where I tried my best to dissuade people from the negative image of Islam that is so prevalent in the international media of late.

But there were moments when it seemed as if this was an uphill struggle where every battle won was soon followed by a string of defeats, thanks to the actions of Muslims who took it upon themselves to ‘defend Islam’ on their own parochial and short-sighted terms; and whose actions and words did untold damage to the image of Muslims. I recall one particularly bitter episode when I was asked to speak about the universalism of Islam – that took place just when the Taliban were occupied with the task of blowing up the Buddha statues of Bamiyan in Afghanistan. It seemed pointless to continue then, and despair has been my lot for the past few years.

Now I find myself again in such a situation, after it was announced that the Fatwa Council of Malaysia has just issued a fatwa declaring that the practice of Yoga is haram and thus forbidden to Muslims. Overnight I was bombarded by emails and sms-es from my Islamist friends in Indonesia where I teach at two Islamic universities, who asked: “What is wrong with you Malaysian Muslims, and haven’t you got anything better to do?” How do I reply to such a question when I am forced to ask it myself?

That the Malaysian Fatwa Council could even contemplate issuing a fatwa on Yoga of all things beggars belief. It leaves many Muslims and non-Muslims alike stunned and speechless for it would suggest that the state of normative religiosity in Malaysia has sunk to such a shallow and superficial level that only the most mundane issues are deemed worthy enough to gain the attention of the country’s ‘defenders of the faith’.

There are three issues that I would like to raise at this point, and they are the following:

Firstly it should be noted that for millions of people around the world who may be Hindus or non-Hindus, Yoga is seen primarily as a form of exercise and little else. In Europe where Yoga has been popular since the 1960s, millions of Europeans have been practicing Yoga in their spare time as a hobby or part of their health regimes, with scant attention to its religious and spiritual connotations. If it were indeed the case that Yoga forms an intrinsic part of Hindu belief and that it can be used as a means to convert non-Hindus to Hinduism, then there ought to be millions of Hindus all over Western Europe by today! So where on earth are these closet European Hindus then? Has anyone considered this commonsensical point with any degree of reflection or honesty? If Yoga is seen as merely a regime of exercise, then how on earth does sitting cross-legged miraculously transform me into a Hindu? It would be akin to suggesting that continual consumption of curry would eventually make me an Indian; and I hope we can all see how patently ridiculous that is.

Secondly, let us be clear about what thing: Yoga practices have been part of Southeast Asian culture for more than four thousand years and they are as much a part of Asian society as many of the other cultural legacies left by the period of ancient Indianisation. Another practice that has become normalised and localised over the past four millennia is the practice of massage, which is hugely popular in predominantly-Muslim Malaysia and Indonesia as it is in Thailand, Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia. Look at the relief carvings on the temples of Prambanan and Borobudur and it will be seen that massage was prevalent during the Hindu-Buddhist period and the detailed carvings show that what Malay-Muslims call ‘urut’ or ‘picit’ (pressure-point massage) was practiced as far back as the Sanjaya and Sailendra dynasties. Today picit and urut are still popular among Malaysian and Indonesian Muslims, and is practiced by Muslims. Has this ancient form of therapy transformed us into Hindus too? Certainly not, so why the fuss over Yoga?

Thirdly, the declaration that Yoga is haram has robbed Malaysia and Malaysians of yet another neutral civic space where Malaysians of all walks of life can meet and interact as Malaysians and friends. As someone who has been practicing Yoga since the age of nineteen, I can say for certain that many of the Yoga classes I have attended were plural, cosmopolitan gatherings where Malaysians of all ethnic and cultural backgrounds can meet and form lasting friendships and acquaintances. To declare this practice haram for Muslims effectively robs us of another space where we can meet other people, constraining our personal freedoms and limiting the choices in our lives.

Muslims in Malaysia are more closely guarded and policed than ever before, with more and more laws, rules and restrictions on how we dress, eat, speak, interact and even marry and form relationships with. After this fatwa on Yoga, what will be next? A fatwa on karate, kung-fu, pilates, Qi Jong?

At the root of the matter is the fact that the Malaysian Fatwa Council has acted unilaterally once again and unilaterally issued a blanket prohibition in the name of Islam and all Muslims. Well, I did not vote or elect any of the members of this council; and neither did any other Muslims in the country. Here lies the real problematic of power behind such appointed bodies that have been given so much power and authority over our lives. Lest it be forgotten, the only body that is allowed to legislate on our behalf as Malaysian citizens is the Parliament, that was elected by the citizenry themselves. Yet over the past three decades of an Islamisation process that has gone out of control, more and more non-elected and non-democratic bodies have been created that wield enormous power over the lives of Malaysians, particularly Muslims.

What has aroused the angry reaction of Malaysian Muslims in the case of this fatwa is the fact that it was issued unilaterally without any consultation with society. And this reflects the extent to which the Fatwa council is in fact a body that is not answerable to the Malaysian public. More so than a question of theology or theocratic details and fine-print, the workings of the Fatwa Council in Malaysia has demonstrated the workings of a state that has abdicated its responsibility to lead the way towards a modern, progressive Islam that is relevant to the plural and multicultural world we live in today. Yet ironically all this is happening under the watch of Prime Minister Abdullah Badawi, who made it his project to promote an ‘Islam Hadari’ that is modern and tolerant. How, pray tell, can there be a tolerant, moderate and modern Islam when books are banned on a monthly basis and Muslims are not even allowed to exercise and meditate in peace? And once again, it is the image of Islam that has suffered the most.

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  1. #1 by malaysia-united on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 3:41 pm

    Cintanegara,

    1. This article was wrote by Farid A. Noor which I believe he is a Muslim.

    2. “Malays never question what other religions believe and practice” But BN destroy many of the Hindu temple???

    3. DAP=Chinese? Hel No. DAP=Malaysia for Malaysian

    4. “you guys keep on debating this openly and publicly” Islam=no debate? intolerent???

  2. #2 by cintanegara on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 3:52 pm

    DAP will be more respected if they publicly announce that they are representing Chinese and not hiding behind malaysian malaysia slogan. How could DAP claim to be representing Malaysian if they are very selective in the case they fight for?

  3. #3 by zak_hammaad on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 4:12 pm

    How Would This Reflect on Muslims? It will not because Muslims are not the ones who enacted the fatwa or indeed agee with it in most part. This will give the fatwa council an opportunity to begin remedial work in order to streamline the process of discussing, deciding and enacting any future fatwas put out in the public domain. There will be a more cohesive and ‘inclusive’ mechanism to make sure every section of leadership (inc. the council of rulers) and effected religious organisations are interacted with before public announcements and prints go out.

    DAP will not be allowed to get away with scoring cheap political points against their adversaries.

  4. #4 by Prasad on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 4:18 pm

    I really don’t care what Malaysian Fatwa Council do as long it impact Muslims only and doesn’t infringe on others.
    I also don’t find the ban on yoga is an insult to Hinduism.

    But one wonders cintanegara statement “Malays never question what other religions believe and practice”
    Can he/she explain about The Mufti of Sabah issued a fatwah that declared all Buddhist statues haram and the project to build the world’s tallest Mazu statue was canceled in Kudat due to this.

    And what about the demand to remove Christian cross and demolition of Christian statutes in mission schools.
    http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2007/12/03/extremist-demands-for-removal-of-cross-and-demolition-of-christian-statutes-in-mission-schools/

  5. #5 by oedipus on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 5:21 pm

    i think those that believe DAP= chinese is really gullible la. try to look beyond the BN spin thru the mass media. IF DAP=chinese, i wonder what will that make UMNO, MIC and MCA?

    my dear cintanegara, we all here love this negara Malaysia our tanah tumpah darah ku, we all agree to disagree and thats the bottom line. trying to find the middle ground for all of us to make this country great again.

    if DAP is so chinese like you think it is, maybe thats why they have (i think) the largest number of Indians MPs in parliament and they currently have the largest ‘indian’ voice in parliament. and IF you think thats racist, i think you have to look into the dictionary and look up the meaning of a racist la.

    take it with a pinch of salt what the mass media and UMNO have you shoved into your mind.

  6. #6 by Mus_JB on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 5:25 pm

    Mr Prasad,

    I would like to add some info based on your comment.

    I think there is a lot of confusion about fatwa and the word haram. In the context of Malaysia, a fatwa is only applicable to Muslim. The word haram is understood differently by Muslim and non- Muslim. It is not what you have learned from Sekolah Kebangsaan.

    What the Mufti meant is that statutes (worship it) is haram (forbidden/sin) for a muslim. If you notice, there is no object or statues in Islamic religion. In short this is only applicable to Muslim.

    Statues in a place of worship by other religion is not relevant to Muslim. However,if the statues is at public location (in this case the tallest in the world) then this is different story.

    This is the same with the cross and christian statues. Who actually go to this school, only christian? The cross is a very significant symbol of the christian faith. To have this at a school attended by multiple religious groups is quite debatable, don’t you think?

  7. #7 by de_Enigma on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 6:05 pm

    Dear Mus_JB,

    I find contradiction in your last two paragraph of your comments. You are effectively saying, when a building has other faith elements in it, it will not be appropriate to our muslim counterparts if it is a public buildings.
    So what is the constitution on respecting other religions beliefs all about?
    To me, our muslim buddies can treat the ‘cross’ as a shape just like sphere or cube. If you ask any kids, they would have no problem with any shape as long as it looks good on it. Why do we have to complicate our minds?

  8. #8 by de_Enigma on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 6:27 pm

    Dear Cintanegara,

    Its true Dr.M has a vision to bring development to our country, promote our country by mapping it into the world with twin towers, Cyberjaya, Putrajaya etc. However, by moving to where we want too hastily, through bad policy, unresolved corruptions, or whatever shackles you can think of have already land us in big debt and the unsatisfactory level of development in Malaysia. (Just compare with Singapore, they have no natural resources, limited land, they even need water from our blessed country and yet we are here watching them from behind, now with a binocular)

    It is not that we didn’t progressed, we are sadden because we could have been much better off with proper execution. Now that our neighbor countries are progressing much faster than us, we have resort to compare ourselves with Sudan, Somalia and Zimbabwe for the feel good factor. So, when are we going to stop downgrading ourselves? Or are we forgetting the meaning of ‘progress’?

  9. #9 by rubini on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 6:34 pm

    Everyone & anyone has the right to debate / discuss any subject in a civilised manner. Islam is a faith, not the personnel property or fiefdom of any individuals or groups.
    Mufti’s & Ulama taking “holier than thou” attitude is wrong. Have the National Fatwa Council conducted a survey, research or feedback among Yoga practising muslim to determine the actions of practicing any form of exercise has eroded the faith in the Muslim. How many muslims have had their faith eroded by this actions? Can the NFC back up their rulings with some facts.
    Power corrupts & absolute power corrupts absolutely. This verb is not limited to politicians & money alone.Is there a measuring device formulated by NFC to determine the depth of faith of the Muslims in Malaysia.
    The Depth of Ocean i can measure, how can I measure the depth of my heart? Even Christ once remarked to the masses “Many will speak in my name, but they do not speak for me”
    Ordinary people will lose even more faith in their daily observation ritual if they be told what they can do or cannot do. Faith cannot only be deepened not by superficial rulings but pure sincere actions.

    Last 50 years why the large segments Muslims in Malaysia have serious social problems which affects them ;

    1) Drug (Dadah) addictions – Malay/Muslims form the largest component of the total drug baddicts disporportionately.
    2) HIV/AIDS – largely prevalent among Malay/Muslim
    3) Rape/Incest/Date Rapes – 90% are centered among Malay/Muslim community.
    4) Crime – incresing number of Malay/Muslims commiting crimes.
    5) Mat Rempit/Kaki Lepak/ Kaki Bohsia culture – all are largely prevalent among Urban malay/muslims.
    6) Teen pregnancy – highest occurances is among Malay/Muslim youth.

    Why have not the FATWAS helped the muslims in this country.
    I hope the NFC can do some reading about social behaviours issues by social scientist (eg Maslow). The NFC makes ruling without understanding, how fatwas would change the behaviour of society. How does this help the “Ummah” faith if rulings is clearly being ignored. Did anyone think every Muslim will just bend over & accept the rulings? Did NFC ever think maybe they actions will push certain segment of society to go underground, become closet Hindus, Christians, Buddhist?

    Ayah Pin is clear example a Muslim preaching in a different method or way is not “Tolerated” because the Ulama/Mufti’s position & power of influence will be eroded. Have the NFC ever determined why Malay/Muslim youth are far much more attracted & participate to Rock & Heavy Metal music than other people.

    Faith cannot be practised in uniformity. Take any religion, Jewish, Christianity, Islam, Buddism are all practised with varying degree of difference. Even exact made machines do not perform exactly,let alone humans.

    My suggestion to the NFC is that, please have the common sense to engage the muslims in a civilised discourse. The more u push to the right, the more they will go to the left.

    Lastly i would add this contradiction. A tourist from UK comes to Malaysia on the invitation of a friend. He happens to practise Yoga in his friends house in the evening. His friend asks him what’s he’s doing after he has finished. He says Yoga. His friend in turn says Yoga is haram in Malaysia, his friend says Yoga is not Haram. By the way both are Muslims. ?????????

  10. #10 by rubini on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 6:42 pm

    To MUS_JB,

    I think you being a little incorrect in saying;

    What the Mufti meant is that statutes (worship it) is haram (forbidden/sin) for a muslim. If you notice, there is no object or statues in Islamic religion. In short this is only applicable to Muslim.

    Muslim face the Mekah when performing a prayer which is an object & inside the building is a Black Stone which can refer to as a statue.

    Correct me if i am wrong.

  11. #11 by AhPek on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 7:39 pm

    Mus_JB,
    Neither did I say you are accusing him of not being an Islamic
    scholar.What I am saying is that not being an Islamic scholar doesn’t mean he can’t write anything scholarly about things pertaining to Islam.What he says in this thread casting doubt on the wisdom of ‘scholarly’ clerics is argued persuasively with logic clearly coming from a mind of a scholar.What he presented is scholarly.On the other hand the ‘scholarly’ clerics from the Fatwa council does not make much sense to me.
    I do not know why you brought up Mao Tze Tung’s case but since you have done so I completely agree with you that some of the things he did were simply atrocious.But China has been lucky to have Deng Xiaoping and undo all the harm inflicted by Mao to move China forward.China would not be what she is today without him.

  12. #12 by wtf2 on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 8:03 pm

    next time they will say to muslims that sending xmas cards to friends are haram. Why because it celebrates the birth of Christ.

    Naturally there are strange Chinese christians who won’t accept Chinese New Year cards too… But they don’t come out with a fatwa on this.

    Likewise true Buddhist/hindus do not eat beef – but they don’t deprive people of the freedom of choice.

  13. #13 by Mus_JB on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 8:17 pm

    Rubini,

    You are very very wrong.

    Muslim pray all over the world facing Mekah as the Kaabah in Mekah is a source of direction. Otherwise, muslim will not have any common direction when performing prayers. As such, all the mosque in Malaysia and the whole world is align as such that the prayers perform facing Mekah.

    One of the fundamental of Muslim belief is that the relationship between Man and God is direct and without intermediaries. That is why Islam is very very particular about statues. It is strongly forbidden in Islam.

    Therefore, if you says that there is a statue in Mekah , then you are very mistaken.

    You can forward this question other muslim (well, you should approach one that really well verse in Islam, some are really ignorant) , they will give you the same answer.

  14. #14 by Mus_JB on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 8:42 pm

    To AhPek,

    I understand what you are indicating in your comments.

    I would like to say that the whole affair of Fatwa is for Muslim community. It is the duty of the cleric to make these Fatwa’s.

    An an anology, it will be inappropriate for an architect to comment about the decision made by doctors. If Mr Farish attended a degree in Islamic Studies, then he can comment about what he commented. How can one make a comment if one is not scholarly in the subject.

    This is not only about logic, it is about religion, there are rules in religion and one have to really study them thoroughly to make sense out of it and to make comment about it.

    I do not think that it is appropriate at all Mr. Farish to comment in this blog about this matter as this is about Muslim affairs not politics.

  15. #15 by Mus_JB on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 8:48 pm

    De enigma,

    I didn’t say that it is inappropriate, i say that it is debatable.

    Suppose a chinese temple is converted into a school. There are chinese, indian, and malay student. Should you remove or keep the statues?

  16. #16 by AhPek on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 9:02 pm

    And what is wrong in keeping the statues? Can’t they be kept for reminding us of the school’s origin?You are not asked to worship it.

  17. #17 by bc on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 9:41 pm

    God is testing your ability here in this land.

    As long as you don’t treat anything/statues as god, you have no offer to god.

    God is spiritual and invisible in your mind.

    You mind spiritual is touch by god and devil.

    You have the freedom to choose which side you want.

    You have fully freedom to choose as god giving you the rights.

    The god is testing you whether you win the battle to enter his paradise.

  18. #18 by bc on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 9:43 pm

    Sorry, I mean.

    As long as you don’t treat anything/statues as god, you have no offen to god.

  19. #19 by zak_hammaad on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 10:18 pm

    AhPek Says:

    >> And what is wrong in keeping the statues?

    This is a very good and a logical question. As Muslims, we have been given specific guidelines on what is allowed and what is not allowed; between these clear-cut lines, there is a grey matter, where we are asked to walk on the side of caution.

    With respect to animate images and statues, Islam is very clear-cut and numerous references from the Quran and the Sunnah have left no ambiguity as to their forbiddance and disallowal due to the potential of idolatory and paganism (which is the greatest crime in Islamic theology). I do not want to cite the evidences or provide references as this is not the time or place, but I leave you with a general prinicple in Islam where anything that can LEAD to a sin, is itself reprehensible and is to be avoided.

    Night night.

  20. #20 by Mus_JB on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 10:26 pm

    AhPek,

    Maybe I have given the wrong example,

    What if an Indian Temple is converted to a school, there are malay, chinese, and indian student.

    So the chinese will have no qualms whatsoever about the statutues?
    They will say that this is In Tuuk Ren. (I studied in Mandarin school for 6 years and know very well about the chinese.)

    If you expect that all the chinese parent will keep quite…….

  21. #21 by vsp on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 11:09 pm

    The National Fatwa Council, to my understanding, always issue fatwas following the instigation of certain section of the political elites. The controversy about Yoga came about when an UMNO-affiliated lecturer, Zakaria Stapa, alleged that Yoga has elements of Hindu teachings and that it would weaken the faith of any Muslim practitioner who practice yoga for health and exercise purposes.

    Yoga has been practiced in this country by all races for umpteen years, yet the National Fatwa Council did not see it fit to treat it as dangerous and unfit for Muslim for decades, and suddenly out of the blue sky through the instigation of a single lecturer, the National Fatwa Council begin to see the “truth” of the matter. This development coincides with the dilemma that is facing UMNO in its effort to win the support of the Malays through the Ketuanan Melayu drum-beating. After finding that the earlier race-baiting attempt did not receive the rousing acceptance of the Malays, now the UMNOputras are using the religion angle to pit the population against one another. This is a dangerous game that the UMNOputras are now playing to a full house. Instigate first, then watch the fight and then come to the ‘rescue’ has always been the hallmark of the UMNOputras’ Maciavellian plot to cling to power. The National Fatwa Council is just a pawn in this chess game.

    If we were to follow the logic of the National Fatwa Council’s contention that a Muslim would be easily influenced by the elements of other faiths, then I suggest that they also pass fatwas against the Koran and the Malay language.

    Islam was preceded by Judaism and Christianity and has shared many teaching of the two faiths. Going by the logic of the National Fatwa Council, Muslim should be prohibited from reading the Koran because it also contains many teachings of the Hebrew prophets and there might a danger that many Muslim could become Jews.

    The Malay language also contains a lot of Sanskrit words. So in everyday discourse there might be a danger that many Malays would be influenced by Hindu thoughts and could become Hindus. Also many Malay customs and ceremonies are derived from Sanskrit. All of these also need to be fatwaed or else every Muslim would turn into a Hindu. So ban this, ban that, ban everything and what will there remain for the Malays to live for? Don’t allow the Malays to interact with people of other faiths – ban travel to other countries except Muslim countries.

    Ban, ban, ban, ban… fatwa, fatwa, fatwa… and the Malay race will be ancient history.

  22. #22 by One4All4One on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 11:16 pm

    Oneness of God
    Oneness of Religion
    Oneness of Mankind

    Aren’t we living in the ONLY ONE WORLD that we ever know?
    Aren’t we the ONLY ONE HUMAN RACE that we ever are?

    And, of greatest importance and which still suffers the greatest doubt and disbelief is that we are in fact praying to the ONE and ONLY GOD that humanity ever knew, no matter by whatever name we were taught to recognise Him as.

    Unless and until we as one human race recognise those unifying and universal precepts, UNITY would elude us, perhaps forever.
    (Some may question the need and moral of unity. The need for unity is indeed pivotal and a prerequisite, if one cares to delve deeper into it, for all of humanity’s collective consciousness, success, and survival!)

    All religions are manifested to mankind in different stages and eras. If we care to go through the teachings of each dispensation, we could find that the teachings of each religion is suited to the conditions and realities of the particular era.

    So much about PROGRESSIVE revelations for now, else I would be accused of trying to force my religious belief on everyone else uninvitingly. Even so, everyone is encouraged to seek out the truth for himself, though, of course, there are forums for fellowship and proper approaches.

    As for the practice of yoga which unquestionably originated from India and claims that it is linked to Hinduism or any other religious practices in India of yore:

    Even if yoga has any religious undertones, there should not be any cause for alarm or sensitivities, to the extent that the implied religious flavour is going to change one into a disciple of Hinduism or any other perceived teachings!

    What a parochial mentality and stand to take!

    Aren’t we part of humanity? What’s wrong with partaking in what life has to offer? What’s wrong with joining our brethren in doing some form of bodily exercises which happen to have the impact of calming our minds, and perhaps “soul”? (What some fear as diluting one’s faith in another of God’s Teachings.)

    It is such unfounded fears ( or rather, such parochial and ignorant positioning and interpretations) which sow the seeds of divisiveness and disunity among peoples.

    A precept is a precept no matter by what name a religion takes. A precept in Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, the Baha’i Faith, or any of God’s Religions, would still be precept.

    One cannot take the stand that a precept of one’s religion is only the sole ownership of his religion. We have to recognise that it is a common precept and accept it as such and should by right consider that precept to be the unifying principle among all of us.

    If we take such a stand and reasoning, we would not have concluded that the practice of yoga is tantamount to contradicting the practice and belief of our adopted religions. On the contrary, there is consonance among the teachings of the different religions, as the practice of yoga brings humanity together, which is what Unity is about!

    Let’s not degenerate further than what is happening in our country.
    Else it may come a time when it would be declared that the air that one community breathes is haram to another; or that the water that we drink is haram to some and not to others, etc.. etc.

    Let’s not make a mockery of and ridicule our mentality and insult our intelligence. And in this age of enlightenment and knowledge explosion!

    Surely we are not in the dark ages. If it is, it is one of forced and planned evil in the making! And surely we cannot stand by to let it happen right under our nose! It has to be countered by right knowledge and truths known and common to us.

  23. #23 by imranj78 on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 11:32 pm

    Mr Farish Noor,
    You are entitled to your views but at the end of the day you are not an accepted Islamic scholar within the Muslim community ….not even close! (even though you are trying to act as if you are). As such your view must and will only be taken as your own skewed personal view. While I personally do not 100% agree to the yoga fatwa and belief that it has erred a bit too much on the conservative side, I can understand the reasoning behind it and will support it.

    To non-Muslims – your views on this matter are only worth listening if you have a full understanding of Islam. If not, I suggest you don’t poke your noses into things you don’t fully understand!

  24. #24 by AhPek on Friday, 28 November 2008 - 11:42 pm

    MUS_JB,
    Switching the example from a chinese temple to an Indian temple changes nothing principally and therefore my probing your beliefs and thoughts still remains.

  25. #25 by vsp on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 12:03 am

    “To non-Muslims – your views on this matter are only worth listening if you have a full understanding of Islam”–imranj

    _______________
    You might be a Muslim but in all honesty do you yourself have a full understanding of your own faith?

    Who are you to tell off Farish that he is not entitled to voice his views just because he is not an Islamic scholar? Are you a scholar yourself? Are you a prophet? Do you understand the Arabic language at the tip of your fingers? So you are saying that only a scholar has the monopoly to the truth?

    My friend, Farish’s relationship to Islam is between him and God. Only God will know a person’s heart and not a pseudo-intellectual like you. Please stop behaving as though you know God’s thought. As the saying goes: many are called but only a few will be chosen – and definitely not those who defile their own religion and make a mockery of God as the UMNOputras do.

  26. #26 by ryan123 on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 12:33 am

    “To non-Muslims – your views on this matter are only worth listening if you have a full understanding of Islam”–imranj

    Same as certain group of people whose mentality is “saya pantang dicabar”.

    Does the council truly understand about the true Islamic teaching? If you bother to read RPK’s posts regarding his encounter with a Islamic scholar from middle east, the council act of banning yoga senseless is deemed a joke by the world.

    Oh ya, by the way, Singapore DO NOT ban Muslims from practicing Yoga. See how the Fatwa council is trying to deceive the people? And is deceiving allowed is the teachings? Ironic and contradicting.

    When such a bunch of group is so afraid in sharing others’ cultures, it enlightens me on how a narrow-mind can lead to catastrophhic consequences.

    peace.

  27. #27 by One4All4One on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 12:33 am

    Dear Imranj78,

    This world belongs to ALL of us, not just muslims. Yes, Islam is the practise of Muslims. But Islam does not belong to anyone, not even the practioners, it is God’s Teachings for ALL humanity. It is up to the individual to seek out His Teachings.

    But, sorry to say, not all muslims are knowledgeable in Islamic matters. In fact there are non-muslim Islamic scholars who are more knowledgeable in Islamic knowledge than most muslims. It is the same for other religions as well.

    Calling oneself a follower of a particular faith does not make one more knowledgeable in the religion. Most followers have superficial understanding and knowledge of their adopted religions, but that does not make them any less of a follower. Faith is sometimes not measured by one knowledge, but by his acceptance of the religion, though of course the ideal would be to seek more knowledge and understanding for his own benefit.

    This is a different era, where we can have access to unlimited information and knowledge. One should pursue whatever it is that matters to or are important and meaningful to us. Let’s not fall prey to hearsay or unfounded and unconfirmed statements or judgements. Let’s give ourselves the benefit of the doubts. Surely God can tolerate our sincere thoughts. It is bigotry, holier-than-thou, and unkindly acts and thoughts that is repulsive. It is the intolerance, discriminatory and prejudicial acts that is ungodly.

    Surely we can also learn from others who do not share the same religious beliefs as us. Sometimes we learn more from people who disagree with us than those whom we thought are agreeable to us.

    And sometimes we are misled by the very people who we trusted most. Sometimes people whom we thought are very different from us in terms of beliefs and practice show more understanding and patience to us. What can we say about these? Religions do not matter any more then.

    If it is so simple as embracing a religion in order to gain the right to comment and give one’s view on the religion, then there would be so many “experts” on the religion, which is not the case. Just too many followers of religions do not have much religious knowledge. They are just followers and do not qualify as knowledge providers per se. But they are at no fault, to be sure.

    Let’s take the middle path imranj78, and let God show us the way, not some kind of doubtful or unsolicited commands. Let’s pray that we live in peace and harmony, not on war path and animosity. Let’s savour being members of the large family called humanity.

    God bless you and all.

  28. #28 by ryan123 on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 12:39 am

    and to cintanegara (or more accurately cintanegara),

    You can only keep repeating that “DAP is representating only particular group, bla bla bla”. The fact is, there are indians, chinese and even malays. so UMNO? not representing Malays? What is your point here, and the PM announced that he wana be a PM of all rakyat. So? please enlighten a poor soul like me on your poor reasoning? By the way, with some good reasoning skills, please.

    You can continue to glamourize your idols, but look at those comments posted at the so-called million-of-reads-per-day blog. See the differences? Not cognitive interactions at all.

  29. #29 by sinnerconman on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 1:02 am

    Everyone is entitled to one’s views and they mean nothing to God. God loves everyone – christians, muslims. sinners – and he will forgive everyone. We may argue until the cow comes home for the handiworks of humanity will cause more miseries and sufferings.

  30. #30 by imranj78 on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 1:20 am

    vsp,
    You should read my posting slowly again and try to understand what I actually wrote rather then try to conveniently put words into my mouth! First and foremost I never said my understanding of Islam us complete. But I do believe my understanding of my religion is much more then your understanding of my religion (assuming you are a non-Muslim that is). If I am wrong on this, please correct me okay. As such, I speak from a stronger point of authority on this matter then you do. I also never mentioned that Farish is not entitled to his opinion. As a matter of fact I wrote that he IS entitled to his opinion, as much as I AM entitled to my opinion that Farish’s view is totally skewed.

    ryan123,
    So many people here doesn’t seem to understand English very well! I never said that non-Muslims cannot comment on Islamic matters. But to comment, especially when trying to disregard something as important as a fatwa, non-Muslims and Muslims alike MUST have specific understanding of Islam. If not, whatever you say is just based on your own personal views, prejudices and thoughts and that does not carry any weight AT ALL unless you have the specific knowledge on Islam to back up your claims! What I said is nothing like `saya pantang dicabar’ crap that you are trying to put into my mouth.

    One4All4One,
    I believe I am being pretty reasonable and fair here. I never said that Islam belongs to a specific group only did I? I never mentioned that only Muslims can comment on Islamic matters did I? Let me put it this way then – shouldn’t a person who wants to negatively comment on a certain matter have some sort of specific knowledge on the matter to be credible in the first place? I am all for open discourse but I am against people who say and comment negatively on things when they do not know the details of what they are talking about in the first place! Is that wrong? I think that is perfectly reasonable don’t you?

  31. #31 by AhPek on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 1:20 am

    imranj 78,
    Since when you have become the keeper of free expression? Has it been bestowed upon you by Tuan Allah?? You will certainly find that nobody who are non Muslims will care to comment on strictly Muslim matters but the problem in this country is oftentimes pronouncements by ulamas have impacted upon non Muslim lives as well.
    I definitely concur with your assertion that Farish Noor is entitled to his views and one can tell what he has said is the work of a mind that gives great credence to logic and evidence thereby giving strong appeal to one’s intellect compared to the reasons by the ‘scholarly’ clerics of the Fatwa Council when they place Fatwa on Yoga as well as fatwa on the dressings of tomboys for fear of leading them to lesbianism.These fatwas leading to a ban on them also have the possibilities of expanding to the rest.Then what about the fatwa on the 2 Buddhist statues of Bumiyan in Afghanistan leading to their destructions by blowing them to pieces.Muslim fatwa has caused that and you expect non Muslims everywhere to shut up regarding the fatwa since they don’t know about Islam.A world heritage is being destroyed and anyone who has felt the loss has the god-damn right to condemn!!

  32. #32 by imranj78 on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 1:35 am

    AhPek,
    Wow when did you bestow me as the keeper of free expression?? Did I miss something here? Like I said, I am not against free expression, but what I am against is `ignorant’ free expression especially by those who do not have the facts and knowledge in hand.

    Your posting has clearly shown that you yourself don’t understand the basis of the Islamic religion. Hence I think there is no point and need for me to respond to such a comment that is lacking in such basic knowledge and hence credibility.

  33. #33 by pkrisnin on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 1:54 am

    Mus_JB I’m a Hindu and I’ve attended mission school.
    Neither I or my parents found the Cross or the Christian statues offensive. Nor do I find the Mosques or their prayers offensive either. In fact the mission school I went to had Islamic classes and Christian classes and I got PE time while they had these classes. (only Hindu in my class :) )
    To tell you the truth I wouldn’t be bother by the world’s tallest Mazu statue either. But I’m not sure why Islam in Malaysia seems to be getting more intolerant of other religion.
    Maybe certain groups in the current gov. are set on isolating the Malays from mixing with other races and for other race to avoid or demonize the Malays. Divide and conquer by using religion and race.
    If person of the Islamic faith want to follow the ban on Yoga that find by me. But when they go out of thier way to tear don’t religious item of other faith that is not right.

    What possible harm is Cross going to cause, blindness, make you sick or what.

  34. #34 by AhPek on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 2:26 am

    Who says anyone must have, as a condition, knowledge of Islam before he can comment on an edict that have possibility of impacting on his life?Whether you feel the need to respond to my comment when I comment on such occasion is of no concern of mine.But when you say Muslims must not eat pork,must pray 5 times a day,must perform the haj, then it is clear that this is teaching of Islam and if you are in it then do according to your teaching but if you are not in it shut up.
    So please don’t tell non Muslims not to poke their noses into things they don’t fully understand.Non Muslims for your informations know quite a bit on yoga and tomboyism and if things mentioned by any group that appears non sensical
    to the intellect then who is to say to the non muslims that they are poking their noses into things they don’t understand? You?

  35. #35 by AhPek on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 2:38 am

    I am addressing above comment to imranj78.

  36. #36 by Tonberry on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 4:14 am

    Are we saying that Bolehland Muslims are more Islamic than Egyptian Muslims?
    Read Islam Yoga to get a better understanding of Islam and not deviate into Umno’s brand of Islam blindly. This goes out to those who have lived under the coconut shell for 51 years.

  37. #37 by Mus_JB on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 9:01 am

    AhPek,

    Your comment,

    Who says anyone must have, as a condition, knowledge of Islam before he can comment on an edict that have possibility of impacting on his life?

    My Comment,

    I did not think a chef or a cook by profession have the capacity to comment about how to launch a rocket to the moon. This is the Physicist area of expertise.

    The Islamic scholar attended years of studies in Islam. They also have to read thousands of Fatwa’s and books by other clerics since the beginning of Islam.

    In analogy, a lawyer needs to read a lot of cases to make him proficient and he needs to attend the required examination to make him accepted as a lawyer.

    What happen here is that when there is a lot of queries to the authorities about whether there is conflict about Yoga and Islam. The authority must forward this to the cleric.

    Now the Cleric MUST make a decision. He have to gather the INFORMATION on Yoga and decide whether this is allowable in Islam.

    After the evaluation of the matter, the Cleric will make a decision and he will give the JUSTIFICATION of the decision.

    For the Muslim perspective, he must accept the Fatwa as this given by the cleric or Mufti. HOWEVER, if the justification is not clear or cleric have made a decision based on the wrong information, then he can still come forward and approach to cleric. He/She can also approach the cleric from the other states to get a second opinion.

    Islam have its rule but it does give a high degree of freedom to Muslim. If a renown cleric from Egypt says it is OK to perform Yoga, then I can still use his Fatwa and perform Yoga.

    For the Muslim, he or she cannot go and see Mr. Farish Noor for advice as he do have the CAPACITY to make decision on this matter. Mr Farish also cannot comment out his fancy on decision made by the Fatwa council.

    For the non Muslim, this fatwa does not affect them. They can openly open a Yoga class and perform Yoga, day and night.

  38. #38 by Jeffrey on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 9:03 am

    The interesting part of human nature is that we would argue a certain position, almost always according to our personal likes/dislikes, predilections, bias and value judgments. [Hence there will be arguments and discord in a thread like this, in another context, it may lead to even violence and slaughter of the innocents as in the Mumbai bombings!]

    Fatwa Council of Malaysia takes the view that Yoga combining physical exercise and mantra chanting is against Islamic belief. There are certain factual bases from this thinking : Yoga has been referenced in many ancient hindu sacred texts, including Bhagavad Gita, and its objective via meditation is to realise “Brahman”, or the Divine Essence combining oneself with cosmic/divine. Yoga itself comes from the Sanskrit word ‘yuj’ meaning to yoke, join or unite…

    As usual it is how far one wants to take one’s agenda. Those against yoga can also say tantra yoga is the basis of the Kama Sutra, an ancient marriage manual old fashioned sexual self-help book advocating various sexual positions for uniting the ‘yoni’ and the ‘lingam’….and those for Yoga will selectively argue its compatability with Islam’s precept of tawh?d (doctrine of oneness), and so on….

    In between, as usual, to disparage the opposing side’s argument, people will commit the common fallacy of citing and appealing to authority of who is a better qualified scholar on Islam or Yoga to buttress one’s position, and those who do not belong to this rarefied group of scholars and authorities have no business in commenting that which they know nothing much in breath or depth!

    There are always “dos” and “donts” and one can always find some mix of factual and logical bases to support either in line with one’s inherent bias.

    I am inclined to think human progress depends more on expanding the dos than the don’ts whether by interpretation or actions in line with freedom of thought!.

    So to curb the “dos” and expand the “don’ts” one should test it against comon experience and logic than rely solely on the finality and authority of the religious experts.

    After all, how could the latter expand their influence and authority/power over the rest if they don’t propagate the masses to defer to their divine revelation??? How do you think the clergy in Medieval time could exert equal if not more political power than the medieval kings?

    Of course those of more conservative cast of mind in Fatwa Council would not agree. They would say it leads to chaos and moral degeneration, abstract terms of which they can’t exactly pin point what these words really mean and how it would lead there.

    On fatwas, yes they are guidelines but would those who support their adherance equally support the fatwa of death sentence passed by Ayatolla Khomeini on an Indian-British novelist Salman Rushdie on fourth novel, The Satanic Verses (1988)???

  39. #39 by Jeffrey on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 9:06 am

    Sorry typo error – “precept of “Tawhid (doctrine of oneness)”…

  40. #40 by Mus_JB on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 9:16 am

    To Prikisnin,

    It is forbidden for a Muslim to tear down statues from other house of faiths.

    My apologies if you are offended by my comment.

    The example I have given is to illustrate the issue pose on of one the comments about christian missionary school that have the cross and christian statues. That there are some Muslim have some concern about it.

    So, I have given example about a chinese temple converted to a school and later a hindu temple converted to a school. I am not saying in my comment that the statues to bear torn down. I am saying that will other religions of faith (not only muslim) concern on statues represent a particular religion at a public area.

  41. #41 by oedipus on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 9:18 am

    hey guys…. esp imran, ah pek and the whole gang… looking at your recent post it looks like you guys are having a great discussion!

    just to butt in, i remember what RPK said:

    an opinion is like an axxhole, everybody has got one!!

    we cant say the terrorist attacks in mumbai arent our problem and we cannot comment on that because we are not indian nationals or staying mumbai! we are all human beings created by the glory of God, each having a full capacity to love and intolerance to injustice.

    have a good weekend guys!

  42. #42 by Mus_JB on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 9:55 am

    Jeffery

    I agree that it is human nature to argue about matters. What we need to differentiate is when one that have very limited knowledge about a subject, argue about it.

    There are do’s and don’ts.

    I believe that the different between a good human being and a bad one is the STANDARD of the do’s and don’ts.

    We can get the do’s and the don’ts from good values and ethics that comes from religion or beliefs in a culture.

    Some can derive the do’s and the don’ts from ones head. Adolf Hitler did this and he have killed millions. Well, I think he is ok about it and he can even justified it.

    George Bush and Tony Blair have created a war in Iraq which lead to hunderd of thousand killed based on what? A WMD which is not there. He seems ok with it.

    All this is about the do’s and the don’ts.

    About this Salman Rushdie, I can understand your question about the Fatwa. But, do you really know what he did? Why Muslim is very angry about it? Like I said earlier, one can always argue about matters but the difference is whether one really comprehend what is arguing about.

  43. #43 by farouq fatham on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 9:59 am

    Religion is between me and God therefore I am answerable to God as to how I practice my religion. How can other living creatures try to be gods and starting to set rules???

  44. #44 by shamshul anuar on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 10:58 am

    Dear Prasad,

    Yes. It is true. Islam never prohibits the practice of other faiths. That is the reason why other faiths flourish in this country. Despite the misleading and hysterical act by Hindraf, none of my friends are able to justify why on earth the number of temples exceed that of mosques and surau put together in Selangor. Bear in mind that the number of Malay residents in Selangors is at least three times to that of Hindus.

    What Mufti of Sabah did is a reasonable. We never object the statue rather the scale of it that gives impression that Buddhism is the major religion in that area. Now imagine building a mosque that rivals St Peters in Rome. Pope would have objected it.

    As for Yoga, the decision of Fatwa Council must be respected. It comprises state Muftis. The recommendation is made after detailed studies.

    Basic foundation of Islam is acceptance of Allah as their God. Any act that may( and can also mean unintentional) challenge such acceptance is a serious matter in Islam. I am sure that no Muslims want to think that they intentionally or unintentionally involve in physical activity that challenge acceptance Allah as their God.

    As for Farish Noor, please do not compare Fatwa on Yoga with blowing up Bamiyan statues. “La Kum di nukum waliyadi…..”. It is a Kuranic verse that reminds Muslims on although Muslims have their own methods to pray, they must not forget that not all humans submit to Allah.

    Perhaps Taliban forgot the saying of Prophet “Those who are not fair to non Muslims are not fair to Me( The Prophet). and trhose who are not fair to me are not fair to Allah”.

    The saying clearly reminds Muslims to uphold the principle of justice even to non Muslims. So, what Taliban did was wrong. It ignored repeated advices of all Muslim countries that such act is wrong.

    And do not compare with demolition of a temple used to the hilt by Hindraf in Kg Jawa almost a year ago. The land owner sold the land to a developer. On that land there were a surau and a temple . The developer built another temple to replace the demolished one. Another surau was also built.

    But of course, what not told is that a surau was also demolished. Again, for nothing Dr Khir was ridiculed.

    Why is Farish Noor is so worried about how non Muslims perceived Muslim ban on Yoga? Even Vatican reminds Christians that some element in Yoga in contrast to Christianity.

    What Farish should do is explain the rationale. No need to be embarassed about the ban. There are many other physical activities that Muslims can do.

    As Farouq Fatham, you got it wrong. That phrase is often used by those who want to absolve themselves from sin committed. Yes. You are answerable to God. But there are certain rules need to be followed. I am sure you are aware that human need rules as a guide in their lives.

    “How can other living…..”Non body is playing God here. It is the duty of Mufti to remind Muslims on Islam. And reminding is a noble act. It cant be construed as playing God.

    As for Salman Rushdie’s Satanic Verse, well it cpmpares Lady Aishh, wife of Prophet Muhammad, to a prostitute. And is this what we called “freedom of Expression”. I read the book and I pray that Allah “show” enligntment to this poor soul.

  45. #45 by AhPek on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 11:09 am

    ‘an opinion is like an axxhole,everybody has got one!1′. oedipus.

    Exactly you have got a bull’s eye but there are some here who thinks that they have got a right to ask non muslims not to poke their noses into muslim matters without proper understanding.

    And you have got it spot on again when you say we can’t say that the Mumbai problem is not our problem and we can’t comment on it since we are not Indian nationals,and if i may add we also don’t understand Indian problems!! If we don’t comment on such acts of terrorism and condemn it, its spread will be encouraged and this may come to haunt us one day.Anything that can impact on us,we must comment and we must never be part of the silent majority to prevent evil from rearing its head.

  46. #46 by AhPek on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 11:13 am

    And besides these edicts or fatwas are not sent straight down from heavens for all mankind!!

  47. #47 by cemerlang on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 11:21 am

    In any references be it books or other sources, yoga has its’ beginning somewhere in India. Somewhere out there, certain references talk about yoga being mentioned in the Sanskrit and Sanskrit is one of the world’s oldest writings. The physical state of a person goes hand in hand with his mental state, with his spiritual state and with his social state. All these are interconnected. Example if you are sick, you feel sad, you cannot pray and you cannot have fun. On the opposite end, if you are healthy, you feel happy, you can pray and you can socialize. In all the religious books, there are teachings on keeping oneself healthy. Next. There are various sects in Islam. Believing in Islam and practising yoga might be found in one of the Islamic sects. At the end of the day, ask yourself. What do you exactly believe in ? What sort of Islam is contained in Malaysia’s constitution ?

  48. #48 by imranj78 on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 2:41 pm

    Commenting on a terrorism event is one thing but deciding that a fatwa edict decided upon by a group of learned Muslim scholars is wrong without that person having a proper understanding of Islam and its tenets is a totally different matter!

    Condemning a terrorist act requires no special knowledge as it is an act that is clear like daylight. Now if you want to talk about fatwas, at least please arm yourself with the right knowledge and experience. Don’t be so naive and think that because you have a mouth (and hand to type in this case), you have the right speak whatever you wish when you are clueless about the topic in the first place!

    Ah Pek,
    Yes non-Muslims know about yoga and tomboyism. But do you know how yoga and tomboyism relate to Islam and Muslims? I bet you know NOTHING but yet you choose to sputter out nonsense. You remind me of the Danish newspaper who think that it is their right (due to free spech) to publish whatever they want even to the point of offending others. I bet you agree with the Danish newspaper’s actions in publishing the offensive prophet carricatures don’t you?

  49. #49 by frankyapp on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 3:02 pm

    This Fatwa cleric practised double stardard,ban or haram yoga because it will poison the minds of muslim.Tobacco/smoking not only poison the lung but kill too,why not ban or haram for muslim ?We have bomohs or witch crafts prastices on daily basis by mulsim some even holding datukships,but the Fatwa cleric remain silence.The malays black magic called ” bowang ” is very popurlarly sort after even by some very educated wealthy malay muslim,is there a haram edicts so far ?. How come these cleric guys didn’t realise that one must not do to others what you don’t want others do to you.Can these guys honestly do tell us that none of them do not smoke tobacco or tobacco products ? Or some may even approach famous bomoh when facing certain unknowm illness or incurable sickness.

  50. #50 by imranj78 on Saturday, 29 November 2008 - 3:27 pm

    frankyapp,
    First and foremost, you must first understand the purpose of fatwas in the first place. Fatwas are only issued for items/practices that are considered `grey’ i.e. on the surface it might not be clear whether they are inline or not with the Islamic religion. Hence a detailed study is conducted before a fatwa can be issued.

    Bomoh and witch craft are clearly not inline with the Islamic religion hence there is no need to clarify an item that is already clear in the first place. Similarly, it is also widely accepted that smoking is not inline with the Islamic faith as it causes harm to your own body.

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