Deputy Prime Minister, Datuk Seri Najib Razak said yesterday that the Bar Council’s persistence in going ahead with a forum on conversion to Islam has triggered extreme reaction from certain quarters, which in turn would threaten the country’s harmony.
He added that he had expected the extreme reaction to occur as the council ignored advice to call off the forum.
Is this an admission that UMNO had plotted for the extreme reaction to the Bar Council forum on religious conversions in Kuala Lumpur on Saturday – including the deplorable and disgraceful police conduct in submitting to the ultimatum by demonstrators threatening to storm into the Bar Council auditorium to disrupt the forum if the half-day forum was not ended by 10 am?
This must be the first time in the history of the Malaysian police force where it had openly and publicly submitted to the threats of demonstrators to commit an offence, i.e. to storm into a private property to disrupt a lawful meeting!
Can the Inspector-General of Police, Tan Sri Musa Hassan and the Home Minister, Datuk Seri Syed Hamid Albar defend and justify the shocking failure of the police to uphold law and order on Saturday?
It is an indictment on the failure of nation-building that in a month the country is to celebrate the 51st Merdeka anniversary that Malaysians are reminded that there is increasingly less space for open, civil and rational discussion on the problems and challenges of creating a Bangsa Malaysia of diverse races, cultures and religions.
The Bar Council had made it very clear that the forum was not to challenge the position of Islam as provided in the Constitution but to deal with the problems of the conflict of laws in the application of civil and syariah laws arising from Article 121(1A) of the Constitution.
This can be fully borne out from the one-hour discussion at the Bar Council forum before it was so shamefully truncated.
Could any one produce any evidence that the position of Islam as provided in the Constitution was being challenged from the one-hour discussion of the Bar Council forum before its disruption?
It is indeed sad and tragic that the demonstration against the Bar Council forum saw some elements of Umno, PKR and PAS united on a fictitious issue – the non-existent challenge of the position of Islam in Malaysia as provided in the constitution.
If all parties concerned can unite on the critical issues facing the nation, like wiping out corruption, fighting injustice and eradicating poverty, then Malaysia will be heading for national and international greatness and not like today, sliding down the slippery slope of mediocrity!
DAP has raised strong objections with the PKR leadership on the role of the PKR MP for Kulim Bandar Baharu Zulkifli Noordin in storming the Bar Council forum and I have been informed that disciplinary action would be taken against him.
The Pakatan Rakyat leadership will have to address the Pakatan Rakyat disarray over this issue.
Will the Barisan Nasional Supreme Council meet to discuss the similar disarray of the BN component parties or will the other 13 BN component parties just have accept the UMNO line because of the continued UMNO political hegemony in the Barisan Nasional?

#1 by dawsheng on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 5:44 pm
“This must be the first time in the history of the Malaysian police force where it had openly and publicly submitted to the threats of demonstrators to commit an offence, i.e. to storm into a private property to disrupt a lawful meeting!”
Nope, this is the first time police let demonstrators storm into the Bar Council. Can they help it?
#2 by dawsheng on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 5:45 pm
“Can the Inspector-General of Police, Tan Sri Musa Hassan and the Home Minister, Datuk Seri Syed Hamid Albar defend and justify the shocking failure of the police to uphold law and order on Saturday?”
Why should they?
#3 by limkamput on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 5:45 pm
If permit not given, i am sure some people will have lots to say also. Obviously some people just lack cow sense.
#4 by limkamput on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 5:47 pm
So what are you trying to say, don’t hold any forum or discussion because the police will be bias. Who does not know that.
#5 by Captain on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 5:50 pm
50% of UMNO members are either pendatang from across the straits or just first genaration. Khir Toyo is a good example.
While about 90% of Indians and Chinese are second or third generation and 100% of Kadazan and Ibans and the like are more Bumiputra than the malays.
So who is the pendatang? So stop cheating.
Bar Council should remove mirrors from their meeting hall wall. The pig must have seen himself lah. There was no other pig there.
#6 by dawsheng on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 5:50 pm
That’s right!
#7 by Toyol on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 5:52 pm
DPM very smug about the storming and the violent behavior of the mob. Looks like he approves of it. If the mob had attacked anybody and burned down the premises, he will say its the Bar Council’s fault! Thats the limit of his so called leadership. You guys seriously want this person as a leader?Oh my gosh…M’sia is doomed.
#8 by dawsheng on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 5:55 pm
“It is indeed sad and tragic that the demonstration against the Bar Council forum saw some elements of Umno, PKR and PAS united on a fictitious issue – the non-existent challenge of the position of Islam in Malaysia as provided in the constitution.”
Talking about Malay and Islam unity, there you have it, all thanks to the Bar Council.
#9 by dawsheng on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 5:56 pm
“If all parties concerned can unite on the critical issues facing the nation, like wiping out corruption, fighting injustice and eradicating poverty, then Malaysia will be heading for national and international greatness and not like today, sliding down the slippery slope of mediocrity!”
Why didn’t the Bar Council organize a forum to save Malaysia?
#10 by Captain on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 5:59 pm
You don’t need a police permit to have meeting indoors.
#11 by dawsheng on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 6:00 pm
“DAP has raised strong objections with the PKR leadership on the role of the PKR MP for Kulim Bandar Baharu Zulkifli Noordin in storming the Bar Council forum and I have been informed that disciplinary action would be taken against him.”
What for? So the Bar Council members can look up to DAP as their backup?
#12 by gundam on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 6:04 pm
dear dawsheng,
if u believe in exercising freedom of speech as a part of democracy enshrined in our constitution like wat we did in tis blog, then there’s nothing too sensitive tat we cant talk abt.
if we dun talk abt problems, then they will never be solved.
remember, we talked, we didnt shout or fight.
#13 by FY Lim on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 6:11 pm
PKR beware of the moles planted by UMNO in PKR !
First, you have Chandra Muzaffar , then DSAI’s tennis partner , Ezam , Saiful and now clearly Zulkifli Nordin.
The modus operandi is the same : When there is a critical event about to happen like PRU 12, these moles will surface trying to claim that they know more about a certain leader and hurling fabricated lies. Some will do on the sly, actions which are detrimental to PKR and PR.
For this occasion where the Permatang Pauh by-election is on, Zulkifli Nordin is now rearing his snaky head and in so doing will cause a lot of votes lost for PKR. Remember, he had quietly and cunningly ” forget ” to submit his election accounts for the last elections.
If the court found him quilty, he will ” willingly ” forfeit his seat.
However, judging by the recent events , UMNO will want him to keep his seats maybe to do more damage in the future.
#14 by wizzerd on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 6:14 pm
The whole episode played into the hands of BN.
If Zulkifli Nordin is brought to book by PKR, he will become a martyr for championing Malay and Islamic rights for his community. This will be capitalised by certain parties and will certainly add fuel to the Malay unity talks and strengthen the ‘belief’ that they are under siege…well with the help of the MSM.
If no action is taken or he is let off with just a warning, PKR will lose its credibility in standing up against the religious bigotry and extremism. They might lose some of their new found support among fence sitters.
Either way, PR will have some setback somehow.
Really hope that DSAI can do some fire fighting/damage control here before the situation gets out of hand.
This time PR is scoring an own goal.
Either
#15 by sirrganass on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 6:22 pm
Scoring an own goal? Wow. I love that phrase!!! Seems to be true.
#16 by bentoh on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 6:32 pm
# dawsheng Says:
Today at 18: 00.34 (21 minutes ago)
“DAP has raised strong objections with the PKR leadership on the role of the PKR MP for Kulim Bandar Baharu Zulkifli Noordin in storming the Bar Council forum and I have been informed that disciplinary action would be taken against him.”
What for? So the Bar Council members can look up to DAP as their backup?
===============================================
Errr… what not for? So the DAP should stay diam diam ubi berisi, when a person titled YB actually stormed into a forum and recited hatred speeches in front of the people?
This is a national security issue (that the PDRM is not doing their job well), as well as national disgrace…
So why can’t a political party voice their unhappiness?
#17 by zak_hammaad on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 6:37 pm
Storming of Bar Council forum – Had Umno plotted for the extreme reaction? Not quite, it is likely that the opposition endorsed the forum as a means to get the consequent reaction which was predicted to take place.
#18 by drngsc on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 6:41 pm
We learn from this episode that BN feels that some protest are justifiable. Obviously, this is another example of the police losing their status as an impartial arbiter of law enforcement. Not to worry, even the protesters and the police must face judgement in the here after. There is a GOD above. We have to be patient for change, and learn our lessons.
#19 by Loyal Malaysian on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 6:45 pm
The police has shown again that it is not an impartial and just enforcer of the laws of the country.
That there are PKR leaders playing to the gallery on Islamic issues is very disappointing.
#20 by chiakchua on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 6:50 pm
This is another proof of the police force in this country not carrying out their duty fairly. They whole UMNOputras and cronies are not walking their talk. How could we trust all these people?
#21 by yhsiew on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 6:54 pm
Zulkifli Noordin should apologize to the Bar Council.
#22 by ADAM YONG IBNI ABDULLAH on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 7:02 pm
seriously, the bar counsel is not the appropriate body to be holding the forum on religious matter. the bar counsel should focus on judiciary matters and may the judges and lawyers alike stay true to the written laws of the courts. ( many strayed ). yet to have the tribunal to hear the errant lawyer out!!!!
religion is such a simple matter , that it is the followers are just too naive to understand. the different sects of muslims, christians and buddhists is a testimony of “my interpretation versus your interpretation.
even great philosophers and thinkers differs in view of God and Religion. religion is and should be a matter of oneself and his Creator. no forum is needed. be it the government or even self proclaimed holy man.
nonetheless, because the conversion has resulted in political interference, families are divided and bodies snatched. well, if i believe i have a soul in the next world, my dead body is no longer any importance to me anymore after my death. it dooms to rot at whichever ground it is buried.
but than again, no one was forced to be a muslim in malaysia. if you choose to convert because of marrriage, it only shows that you were prepared to conform to the Islamic rule. but if one embrace Islam because of one’s choice , and understanding of Islam, who is there to stop you. Not even the government. hope this is clear.
thank you.
#23 by cmbss on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 7:20 pm
STILL NO SOUND FROM ANWAR IBRAHIM!!!!
Waiting for his comment on that Zulkifli.
Please YB, the longer the delay for Anwar to response, the worst be the effect on PR and DAP!
#24 by dawsheng on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 7:52 pm
Dear Gundam, I believe in exercising freedom of speech but I also believe in exercising the brain more when one is exercising the freedom of speech.
#25 by gundam on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 7:57 pm
dear adam,
i hope it is clear to u tat u r currently speaking on a forum too, albeit online.
it is wise and democratic to have a forum to clarify things and sort them out, hopefully.
#26 by gundam on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 8:01 pm
dear dawsheng,
u r right.
so we need to have an appropriate platform to exercise our brains by sharing, listening, debating views from all walks of life concerned.
where could be the better venue for tat purpose?
#27 by dawsheng on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 8:07 pm
At the coffee shop.
#28 by gundam on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 8:12 pm
oh, tat’s a brilliant idea.
i hope bar council is reading ur suggestion.
#29 by lupus on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 8:15 pm
Where was the FRU and the water cannons ???
#30 by Tulip Crescent on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 8:40 pm
Zulkifli Noordin, a CLP lawyer (probably University of London off-campus law student) ought to know the law of trespass.
The Bar Council was hosting a meeting at its own premises.
And he tells his followers to storm the building if he does not come out by 10 am. What kind of a lawyer is he? Half-past-six?
If they actually stormed into the building, it would have been trespass ab initio.
But that is pure law. Pure law, as in p-u-r-e or in Bahasa tulin,
t-u-l-i-n.
Political considerations have not been taken. Maybe, because of our biased law enforcement officers, the Bar Council president and some of her councillors would be detained under the ISA.
You never know, In Malaysia, “Malaysia boleh. Semuanya okay,” so said our former prime minister who is now thinking of migrating if Anwar wrests power from the National Front.
So for those of you who are advising your children to migrate, it is not such a bad thing. We follow leadership by example, even if it is leadership by bad example!
It’s July 14 on any day in Malaysia. Let us storm the Bastille in Paris!
If they create traffic jams, just stop the car engine and walk out. Make the road a grand car park. It is free … but it is mass action.
Gundam
Politics and religion were separated in the Treaty between the Pope and the Princes of Europe. It was called the Concordat. This was in the early 1100s.
Pastors and priests were not allowed to stand for elections. The Church looked after the spiritual needs of the people while the State looked after the people’s worldly or mundane needs.
Note that this was in the 1100s. The problem seems to be that the Concordat only involves Christianity.
Islam, meaning total submission, is al deen or a way of life. It does not separate the mosque from the nation-state. Islam includes everything. Therefore, the Concordat is inapplicable to Islam despite Islam having already reached its 15th century or 1,500 years of existence.
So in Islam, there is no such thing as the separation of the political and religious sphere. The total religious sphere subsumes the religious. So, your question is a non-starter.
#31 by undergrad2 on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 8:42 pm
“The Pakatan Rakyat leadership will have to address the Pakatan Rakyat disarray over this issue” Kit
So James Manson was right after all! It is helter skelter – still.
#32 by undergrad2 on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 8:43 pm
ooops sorry should read “charles’
#33 by ADAM YONG IBNI ABDULLAH on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 8:43 pm
dear gundam,
read my last paragraph please.
i am a muslim. not by marriage.
i respect other religion .
btw, i will like to join you and dawsheng to discuss on other issues,like how umno is sued for millions for not paying the 2004 banners and election materials. and why samy vellu is let off the hook on the mrr scam of 70million. and why up to date mr.lingham and company is not investigated. and why the petrol price is not down yet, while singapore has priced downward.
coffee shop is too noisy. lets go to deputy prime minister house. najib did say, anyone can pop in ! saiful did that. why cant you and me?
#34 by ADAM YONG IBNI ABDULLAH on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 8:46 pm
dear gundam,
i will certainly like to join you and dawsheng to discuss why the price of petrol is still @ rm2.70 while singapore has reduced theirs.
#35 by Tulip Crescent on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 8:46 pm
ADAM YONG IBNI ABDULLAH
You think religion is just “your interpretation versus my interpretation.” The idea is risible.
[deleted]
#36 by ADAM YONG IBNI ABDULLAH on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 8:48 pm
dear gundam,
please read my last para.
respectfully yours.
#37 by undergrad2 on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 8:49 pm
“If they actually stormed into the building, it would have been trespass ab initio.” Tulip
I have heard of criminal trespass and civil trespass – but not trespass ab initio.
And what is CLP lawyer?? Cari lubang loyar ka??
#38 by ADAM YONG IBNI ABDULLAH on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 8:54 pm
what do you expect anwar to do?
catch 22.
failing to plan is planning to fail.
the prime minister will probably announce price reduction of petrol two days before the pp by election.
#39 by gundam on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 8:58 pm
dear tulip,
thx for ur enlightenment.
bt isnt tat the original problem we should be dealing wif thru tis kind of forum?
#40 by gundam on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 9:04 pm
“the prime minister will probably announce price reduction of petrol two days before the pp by election.”
dear adam,
tat onli goes to show another inconsistency of the gov policy hence another reason for voters to reject them.
#41 by limkamput on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 9:08 pm
An apologist will be an apologist – think, act, argue, debate and behave “apologistly”. What else can I say, spineless apologist.
Let me tell you fellows: don’t be consumed by your hatred for UMNO-BN. You must begin to assess whether PR are able to talk and act with principle. Otherwise it is futile exercise for all of us. Five months have passed, have you seen any change or improvement in local authority administration? I still see the same filthy garbage, haphazard parking, clogged drains and dirty shops and parks everywhere. How long more should we wait to see some changes? Because Anwar had a debate with info minister, now Guan Eng also wants to debate with Koh. Tell me what tangible benefits can we get out of this other than wasting time and talking cock?
#42 by Tulip Crescent on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 9:19 pm
Dear Kit
Sorry for the very long posting on Ahmed Deedat, who had been invited to Kuala Lumpur to speak on several occasions before his untimely demise.
I was actually catching up on my reading and thought I should share it with all the contributors in your blog. I am sure there is nothing seditious about it, unless people want to split hairs, as in the Ooi Kee Saik case.
Hope you have moderated it.
Gundam
You are welcome. If you have read the long piece, Deedat’s problem seems to be his pride. But, placed in a historical context, that pride was false because it was born out of years of being colonised. So, as you can see, colonisation does affect us and the way we think.
Of course, some of us had been the unintended consequences of colonisation. For instance, the Chinese, Indians, Sumatrans and Sulawasi people. Why do I say that. Basically, our forefathers followed the British flag. Even the chettiars followed the British flag into Thailand!
Limkamput
I agree with you. Why must Guan Eng have a debate with a leader who has lost all credibility. Even his so-called protege, his fellow Hokkien compatriots from the same village, has distanced himself from that imposter.
#43 by Tulip Crescent on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 9:21 pm
CORRECTION
Of course, some of us had been the unintended BENEFICIARIES of colonisation.
#44 by gundam on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 9:28 pm
hound,
seems like u havent really learned ur lesson on humility and longanimity.
did i not advise u not to look at things superficially?
u still dun get any points, do u?
dun let me whack u for no gd reasons.
#45 by limkamput on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 9:31 pm
who are you to whack me, you spineless apologist. And stop writting rotten English here.
#46 by gundam on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 9:38 pm
hound,
it seems u really dun have a clue.
im kinda disappointed with u.
#47 by Johnny Cheah on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 9:46 pm
Uncle Lim, you think the police is bothered about law and order. Come again! Today the police force must be over 95 thousand personnel. You complain, they will still say, WE ARE SHORT OF MAN POWER. If they are really serious about maintaining law and order, then hand bag snatchings, robberies, house break-ins, car-jacking and many more other crimes will be very much reduced. If you have noticed, they are more efficient providing escort services to the VIP or VVIP. During this escort service, you will see a few policemen riding big bikes in front followed by at least 2 police cars maybe some unmarked police cars then the car of the VIP or VVIP. Cruising along beside the VIP or VVIP car will be a big motorbike with 2 guys wearing black/dark looks like leather clothing. Then more police cars behind the VIP or VVIP car and bringing up the rear will be more police on motorbikes. During this time, the police will be honking at the public to get out of their way. If you are slow to react, then god bless you. Uncle LIM, this is the type of law and order practise by the Malaysian Police. Please correct me if I am wrong
#48 by yhsiew on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 9:57 pm
PR cannot keep silent anymore since MCA claim they fully support the Bar Council to continue with this kind of forum (Malaysiakini, Chinese Edition). Disciplinary action against Zulkifli Nordin is an option.
#49 by Godfather on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 10:00 pm
Limkamput:
You gotta learn to be more patient. We have had 30 years of continuous pillaging and looting under Mamakthir and Badawi, and now you start complaining after 5 months of Opposition administration in certain states ?
Ask yourself whether you want to live for the next 20 – 30 years under the BN thieves. If that’s your preference, then you have come to the wrong blog.
#50 by Godfather on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 10:11 pm
Personally, I support those who are transparent, who do not steal, and who have integrity. I know these traits are not found in BN, so I can only support a change. I’m more inclined to forgive inexperience or political gaffes so long as the level of integrity is there. Experience you can learn; stealing is much harder habit to break.