Good luck.

NST,The Star,Berita Harian, your main page should highlight ” Babi Pulang dengan Pingat Perak untuk Malaysia” or ” Malaysian Pig won silver and 1st medal for Malaysia, but the pig were asked to go back to China” or “Babi Mengharumkan nama Malaysia”

Refer to The Star, page N20 dated August 13 to what the Pas Research Centre has to say about the Bar Council forum.

If that does not open your eyes as to the purpose of the forum and why it is necessary to trash out ambiguities that occur when conversion take place and its repercussions, then I think it is not worthwile to discuss anymore to a mule-headed religious fanatic.

You are really pathetic when as a muslim you trivialize the importance of jihad and fatwas.

Jihad is a call to wage war against anybody who is believed to be a threat to Islam. It is not the jihad that Sharizat declared against DSAI because he is a muslim and he is not anti-Islam.

You said, “As for fatwas, I’d like to let you know that it is simply a non-binding motion which can either be accepted or rejected, it is neither law nor a replacement for established norms.”

The above alone shows your shallow understanding of your religion. Fatwas are not some frivolous decree issued by lunatics.

The ayotollas and other respected clergy who issue such fatwas do so after taking into consideration the various facets of the infringement or slurs on the faith before such fatwas are decreed. The onus is on the faithful to respect such a decree and execute it to the letter.

That is all I have to say to you who is nothing but a spin doctor who circumvents issues and valid arguements.

So you can rave and rant and expose your childish reasoning and your pathetic understanding of your own religion. It is up to you. I am not interested in your comments any more.

I have duelling pistols, swords (and one very rare toledo salamanca btw), krises, kelewangs, kukris, lightsabres, etc. etc. etc. at very economically competitive prices to make your final pointless acts of stupid suicidal self-annihilation somewhat memorable.

There are even two for one early bird offers with free gifts if the potential duellists can possibly cooperate…….

WE SAY YEAH! :)

>> I shall leave such mundane work to those who assume the mantle of intermediaries between God and man.

This is a misnomer because Islam is the only monotheistic faith; the issue of mediation was one of the major issues in which Islam superseded all other religions, because there is no intermediary between the Creator and the created. There are no priests or monks in Islam; these intermediaries in fact are the cause of most evil in other religions (http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/101736).

>> If a degree in Islam, its tenets, a post graduate degree in Islamic jurisprudence and being a senior lecturer in a world renowned Islamic institution of higher learning is insufficient as credentials, then what is?

Experience in the real world and coming down to grass root level and leading by example.

>> Who are these so-called many?

Well it certainly is not the 200+ demonstrators. It is the people (mainly Muslim) on the streets who have made their position clear; all you have to do is speak to as many as you can :^) Those in support of the forum as it stands are mostly non-Muslim which in and of itself is an antagonistic approach.

>> In Malaysia you do not need any “external force” to subvert and reinterpret the teachings of Islam.

Perhaps you should take a lot at some of the Christian missionary work that is taking place in Sabah and Sarawak. Most of them are graduates from North American Church organisations and have been spilling over from Indonesia for years. However, in this context, I was mainly referring to parties who are not privy to government legislation or responsible for

>> …and who call for jihad and issue fatwas at their whims and fancies are enough to undermine and make a mockery of the faith.

Jihad clearly is not what you have been force-fed to believe. As for fatwas, I’d like to let you know that it is simply a non-binding motion which can either be accepted or rejected, it is neither law nor a replacement for established norms.

>> By the way who is guilty of moving the goalposts? Who is challenging the legitimacy of Islam? Not the organizers and not the peace loving non-muslims who understand the position of Islam is sacrosact as enshrined in the constitution.

The forum was partly about discussing and debating the issue of conversion to Islam and its’s “reprecussions” on family members and their recourse to what they believe is their rights. Islam clearly holds different views and to reconcile them requires in-depth analysis and wise decisions acceptable to all; in the initial stages, this can NOT be done through a public forum!

>> Those actions are the ones that truly burden the members of the affected families.

Please see above paragraph.

>> The forum did not touch on the constitutional position of Islam.

With every cleverly devised plan, blatant infringement on norms is never challenged. It is a slow and gradual process that plays on the sub-conscience that eventually begins to question the norm and attempts to alter the status quo. You may want to read upon this concept within the political arena.

>> If as you claim “change must come through a process of evolution” would you care to enlighten your concept of the evolutionary process?

1. Organise an initial closed door session consisting of credible, acceptable representatives of all faiths
2. Attempt to draft a consensus.
3. Justify and explain and sell the idea to the rakyat.
4. Hold public sessions in each constituency to gouge responses.
5. Re-work the draft if necessary.
6. Agree to a frame-work.
7. Make the processes public and trial the procedures for a 6 month/1 year period.
8. Report on results and make law where possible.

>> Haven’t you heard of taking the bull by its horns?

Those who take the bull by the horns should be prepared to be gored; so they sow, so shall they reap. Every action has a reaction, whether it is positive or negative will depend on the way it is handled.

“Guard yourselves against words that are dirty, because Allah s.w.t. does not like words that are dirty or vulgar. Nor does He like behaviours that are disrespectful.”

To all “defenders of the faith”, please take heed!!!

WITH THE TONGUE WE PRAISE OUR LORD AND FATHER, AND WITH IT WE CURSE MEN, WHO HAVE BEEN MADE IN GOD’S LIKENESS. OUT OF THE SAME MOUTH COME PRAISE AND CURSING.

MY BROTHERS THIS SHOULD NOT BE……………CAN BOTH FRESH WATER AND SALT WATER FLOW FROM THE SAME SPRING?

MY BROTHERS CAN A FIG TREE BEAR OLIVES OR A GRAPEVINE BEAR FIGS? NEITHER CAN A SALT SPRING PRODUCE FRESH WATER

JAMES 3:7-12

ARE MY BROTHERS BEHAVING LIKE PEOPLE OF GOD?

What made you to arrive at the conclusion that I was trying to teach you Islam? God forbid. I shall leave such mundane work to those who assume the mantle of intermediaries between God and man. Being a mere mortal I do not profess to have such a deep understanding of Him and thus would not choose to interpret and thus defile his teachings.

If a degree in Islam, its tenets, a post graduate degree in Islamic jurisprudence and being a senior lecturer in a world renowned Islamic institution of higher learning is insufficient as credentials, then what is? He is not from one of those madrassa schools that churn out the misguided faithfuls.

You mentioned that many DID find the forum offensive. Who are these so-called many? If you are referring to the unruly MOB and their actions, it is they who had misunderstood the purpose of the forum. They are the ones guilty of the slurs on Islam which preaches tolerance, compassion and peace. They are an utter disgrace.

In Malaysia you do not need any “external force” to subvert and reinterpret the teachings of Islam. The many guardians of the faith who cannot understand rudimentary teachings of Islam and who call for jihad and issue fatwas at their whims and fancies are enough to undermine and make a mockery of the faith.

By the way who is guilty of moving the goalposts? Who is challenging the legitimacy of Islam? Not the organizers and not the peace loving non-muslims who understand the position of Islam is sacrosact as enshrined in the constitution. Please do us a favour. Think before you rebutt.

You have given a spin to ‘body snatching’ and ‘property forfeiture’ (not seizure) as perceptions (rightly or wrongly) of many muslims as a non-muslim agenda. This is the very thought process that tends to sweep the ‘uncomfortable issues’ under the carpet. You do not want to face the truth. It is not some semantics. Those actions are the ones that truly burden the members of the affected families.

You seem to have a penchant to distort facts to suit your personal agenda and that is to villify a legitimate gathering to find solutions to grave and urgent problems.

What rigmarole are you trying to weave? The forum did not touch on the constitutional position of Islam. It just wanted to find an amicable solution with the help of muslims of good standing. Unfortunately the forum had to be truncated no thanks to some very enlightened souls from the MOB.

For your information there was no exaggeration on my part. If as you claim “change must come through a process of evolution” would you care to enlighten your concept of the evolutionary process? Nobody is talking about bloody revolutions. Why should you?

Decisions on legal and material issues are not made through evolutionary process. Haven’t you heard of taking the bull by its horns?

>> I had the privilege of showing the said comment to a Malay friend who happens to be an Islamic scholar and a revered friend.

Because I do not know his credentials, I’m sorry but I can not give you the benefit of the doubt on him being an “Islamic scholar”.

>> He did not find the comment offensive or disrepctful of Islam. He understands the ground realities in Malaysia where Islam is concerned.

I personally did not find the forum disrespectful either but the fact it that many DID find it offensive and saw it as an attempt by an ‘external force’ to slur and reinterpret the teachings of Islam on matters of conversion. How we get to an amicable solution is what matters not why.

>> When a forum is held to find solutions to arbitrary snatching of bodies and the forfeiture of property under the name of Islamic jurisprudence, it is all the more imperative to have such forums.

Not really; and using highly charged semantics like “body snatching” and “property seizure” is perceived (rightly or wrongly) by many Muslims to be a non-Muslim agenda to move the goal posts and challenge the legitimacy of Islam in Malaysia!

>> By the way the forum organizers did invite prominent Islamic authorities to take part in the discussion.

This would have been even more the reason for the forum to be held behind closed doors with public announcements made if a consensus had been reached. The fact a highly charged topic was in the public domain made any sort of a reasoned approach to the discussions impossible.

>> Closed door discussions are only possible if participants come without prejudice and personal agendas.

The irony is that the Bar Council was seen to have come with a prejudice and personal agenda. The very fact they wanted to discuss what they already saw as unjust and anti-constitutional items with a view to changing them reflected their bias. Fundamentally, this is a constitutional matter and not a religious one; therefore inviting Islamic scholars would not have given the legal balance the matter required.

>> It is not I who is oblivious of the ground realities in the country but people like you who like to sweep uncomfortable issues and problems under the carpet and behave like the proverbial cat or the ostrich with its head buried in sand.

Ignoring something is NOT the same as wanting to discuss and debate in a wise and conducive manner where the social cohesion of communities is NOT compromised. For the sake of “uncomfortable issues”, you are willing to throw caution to the wind in the hope that the majority would accept knee-jerk reactions of the minority is nonsensical.

>> For your information the government is moving at a snail’s pace to take any form of concrete action to solve the plight of the victims because it does not want to alienate the vote bank of the Malay-muslims.

Exegeration will not get you anywhere and will not win you any favours with the victims you are trying to help. The bottom line is that we need to find a solution to the problem you describe, however the problems are an exception rather than the rule (as you would like people to believe). Highlighting several cases in a country of 27 million and blowing them out of proportion may be your way of hastening answers, but government also understands this and change must come through a process of evolution and not bloddy revolutions.

We would never hear the non-pigs called Mat Salleh as pigs simply because the non-pigs still live in the shadow of colonization…where Mat Salleh are always the respectable and untouchable one. Mat Salleh are the high and mighty one..!!! Perhaps even longing to marry one too..!!!

We would never hear the non-pigs called Japanese as pigs even though they have invaded Malaya before and still the non-pigs don’t call Japanese pigs simply many of non-pigs were spared and not beheaded like Chinese did with the Japanese Samurai swords. So non-pigs are grateful…!!!

We would never hear the non-pigs called Korean as pigs as Koreans will definitely bash them up left-right-center in the middle of the any streets of Kuala Lumpur knowing the Koreans’ temper.

So, it has to be the….CHINESE..!!! Why on earth the Chinese always the easy target when thing is happening in the country? Why can’t those non-pigs fanatic look at their own reflection? Perhaps the non-pigs fear of their own reflection of what they might see..!!! If the country were to rely on those non-pigs fanatics, perhaps we could have to compare ourselves with todays’ Afghanistan..!!!

zak_hammaad said :
“The government had already stated that they are looking into ways that will require the convert to have witnesses and/or inform family members about their intention and actions. This is the likely amicable solution that may receive a general concensus.”

I felt that the forum was the Bar Council’s and the public’s response in helping the govt. to look for ways. In your own words, “..the likely amicable solution that may receive a general consensus.” How else could it be a general consensus if all stakeholders are not involved in its discussion? Some have chosen to stay away.

>> Calling for disputes to be settled behind closed doors is a non-starter in the first place.

Calling for disputes to be settled behind closed doors is a perfectly valid option because it; a) removes media intrusion and thus possible sentimental outrage by Muslims and non-Muslims alike; b) far more broader options can be discussed to reach a solution because nothing would be considered off-limits.

I must disagree with you here as “..behind closed doors is a perfectly valid option..” is contrary to what you profess “..the likely amicable solution that may receive a general consensus.” If as you say, ” far more broader options can be discussed to reach a solution because nothing would be considered off-limits”, I would understand that to mean all parties are open-minded to matured and logical discussions. Why then in secrecy?

>> The non-muslim party under the circumstances does not have access to the civil courts and justice is denied.

Not quite true because the g’ment is mulling the idea of giving civil courts a recourse to the shariah courts where complex issues like the one you describe arise.

I felt that here zak-Hammaad had agreed, “..the govt is mulling…”
Why then deny the truth as stated by mauriyaII? The forum is to address the issue of giving non-muslims a recourse to the civil courts on such complex issues. Not as you have otherwise stated,
“..giving civil courts a recourse to the shariah courts..”