[News Flash 2 at 10.02 am: A few minutes ago, a woman participant went up to the floor mike defending the forum, but was met by shouts by protestors demanding the immediate end of the forum - forcing Bar Council President Ambiga Sreenevasan to announce its closure.]
[Flash - Just informed that police accompanied a few of the protestors into the forum to observe proceedings, five minutes before the forum is to have abrupt end at 10 am.]
The Bar Council half-day forum on conversion to Islam is going on now at its auditorium in Kuala Lumpur – in the face of a crowd of protestors outside bearing slogans and chanting Arabic verses and demanding the immediate cancellation of the forum.
It is a test whether Malaysia is shaping up to be a more civil society where sensitive issues of inter-faith problems can be discussed in a mature and responsible manner to promote national unity and religious harmony in the country.
The Police wants the forum to end by 10 am because of the protests.
As stated by the Bar Council Vice President Ragunath Kesavan, the Bar Council forum on religious conversion is to address the conflicts of laws facing families caught between the separate jurisdictions of civil and syariah laws.
It is not to question the provisions of Article 121(1a) of the Constitution, which conferred syariah jurisdiction over Muslims.
This is the New Straits Times report today on Ragunathan explanation:
While recognising and respecting Article 121(1a), Ragunath said it was unjust to compel anyone to be subjected to laws and courts based on a religion that the person did not profess.
He said the council was “troubled” by the continuing calls from certain quarters that the forum be cancelled.
Claims that the forum would create misunderstanding, anger and tension were in stark contrast with the government’s assurances of more dialogue, Ragunath said.
“The forum is not about conversion per se as the council endorses the absolute right of individuals to embrace Islam.
“Instead, the forum will address the ancillary issues that arise from such situations and will emphasise the need for laws, and a judicial system, that protects everyone equally.
“It is the continued suppression of open and respectful discourse, not public forums, that will cause tension and jeopardise national unity.
“We are taking the necessary precautions to ensure that the dialogue takes place in a controlled and constructive manner, by holding the forum in a closed setting and requiring participants to register for the event.”
I have received the following SMSes from CC Goh who is at the forum:
“The crowd came forward across again. Demanding Ambiga to go down. Shouting louder. Inside a testimony about conversion of a father by the daughter.”
“The crowd continues to chant slogan. Not trying to breach police line.”
“Ambiga just came up to say police ask to wrap up by 10 because of security reason.”
Hope the Bar Council forum will not end up as another APCET II 12 years ago in November 1996.
#1 by smashchye on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 4:44 pm
i dunno dats a problem actually to our country.. i tot we are living in a democratic country whereas if we want to talk about anything about religion its ok as long as we are not influencing anyone in it… how embracing islam topic can be a racial issue anyways? i am very aware now the leaders in this country seem to be very sensitive nowadays or mebi its because the recent limelight is not on them making them less popular so as hev to stand out to object anything or making an issue out of non issues to make people realise they are still alive..funny funny.. i feel very funny….mebi if they need to limelight especially hishamuddin or taib or whoever, they shud ask sum1 to charge them for sodomy..now theres BIG HOT NEWS!
#2 by limkamput on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 5:28 pm
Apologist,
How do we label whether an argument is stupid or otherwise? There must be challenge and counter challenge to see whether an idea is good enough. Otherwise what is the purpose of this blog – just a collection of inordinate and incoherent ideas devoid of any usefulness?
I thought it is in the blog that one can speak freely and frankly. I can’t help if there are those who feel intimidated. From my experience, I don’t think so. Most are more fierce that me, for example you!
#3 by gundam on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 5:43 pm
houndy,
tis is not a court. if an ‘argument’ is stupid, jst laugh away.
i believe mst commenters here are merely expressing their personal views, nt everyone is into meaningless argument like wat we r doing here.
r u living on top of an ivory tower? then i suggest u get back into reality.
no ideas are considered plain stupid or good enough, everything serves its purpose. do nt look at superficiality.
yes, one may speak frankly, bt one should nt judge or demean.
#4 by limkamput on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 6:04 pm
meaningless argument like wat we r doing here.
r u living on top of an ivory tower? then i suggest u get back into reality.apologist
See you can’t match what you say with what you do. Who is arguing with whom now? If I am not mistaken, you are the one constantly pursuing me now, if you have not realised it.
Talking about humility, on what basis you keep judging me I am sitting on my ivory tower and I have contributed nothing. How much you know about me, and how much you know of the work I have done. But of course I don’t have to report to a nobody like yourself.
#5 by gundam on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 6:12 pm
houndy,
u r getting the whole point wrong again.
i am in no intention of ‘pursuing’ u nor do i hold any personal grudge against u, i am doing tis out of my love for my comrades including u. i wan to see ur true potential being unveiled here rather than cursing and swearing like a mad canine.
arrogance is a sin and do nt be self-focused and looking towards something including ideas which does not serve ur interest or purpose.
#6 by gundam on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 6:15 pm
correction:
arrogance is a sin and do nt be self-focused and looking towards something including ideas which onli serve ur interest or purpose.
#7 by haris01 on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 6:57 pm
no body have any right to question of any religion…..
i wonder how can some [deleted] become suddenly become so clever of religion…..everybody just follow how each religion were before“that’s it….
remember that we are all in the middle age….
#8 by AA234567 on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 8:31 pm
Cant u see it’s an UMNO’s plot to bring down Pakatan and Anwar??
Believe me more Ketuanan Melayu stories to be spun for the coming days.
Words of May 13th will start to spread and the non-Malays will be rushing to the supermarket to stock up !!
#9 by limkamput on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 9:21 pm
If one is only outwardly a Muslim, Christian, Buddhist or of any other religions it really doesn’t matter whether you are officially allowed to change your religion or not. What really count is the conversion of the heart, mind and spirit. kanthanboy
Who has the final say who is outwardly and who has conversion of heart and mind? You?
#10 by cheng on on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 9:40 pm
Now who are the hooligans, police should disperse all those protestor by water cannon or tear gas ! These hooligans are violent and disrupt traffic, a nuisance, etc !
#11 by limkamput on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 10:04 pm
Gundam, let’s put it this way. My comments, no matter how abrasive, can’t be equal to your constant branding of others for being sinful because of this and that. People who are not smart usually cannot see their own irony.
#12 by nafasbaru on Saturday, 9 August 2008 - 11:21 pm
will non-Muslims care to indulge in issues related to Islam, if these issues do not affect their lives ???
these issues exist, and there has to be a mechanism put in place to mediate these issues to a settlement.
the aim of this mechanism, is to dissipate tensions as and when they occur, thus ensuring multi-religious harmony.
it is not possible that a great religion like Islam does not provide space for mediating issues. It is the fundamentalist that portray Islam in such a position.
#13 by goldenscreen on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 12:55 am
Many people have seriously come out unfairly against PAS I feel. If most people would have taken the time to read carefully Malaysiakini’s report, then you would see that PAS was definitely taking the more moderate stance as opposed to the UMNO & PKR boys. I repeat it was the UMNO & PKR boys who advocated STORMING the Bar Council forum by force, while PAS advocated calming down the mob by asking to continue protesting WITHOUT ANY STORMING.
If you want to blabber about PAS misdeeds, please take the time to research your facts instead of grabbing the headlines and making your own conclusions. In my mind, PKR came out as the villians namely Badrul Hisham and Zulkifli Noordin.
#14 by kanthanboy on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 6:20 am
Who has the final say who is outwardly and who has conversion of heart and mind? You? Limkamput
________________________________________
It is a matter between you and your god.
I am referring to those Muslims who were denied the right to convert from Islam to another religion and therefore remain only outwardly as Muslims. If they have embraced another religion in their heart, mind and spirit, whatever the government does will not change the fact that they have already abandoned Islam. You can try to keep a person’ religion outwardly but you cannot truly change a person’s faith by legislation.
#15 by undergrad2 on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 7:50 am
Yee Siew Wah Says:
Yesterday at 12: 44.56
“Islam is a great religion. It is the people who misinterpret to their advantage…”
You may want to ask Salman Rusdie about the satanic verses.
#16 by johnson chong on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 7:53 am
Curious to know what will the scenario be if the forum is organised by the Muslim NGO regarding other non muslim religion and the protester is not Muslim. Will the cabinet minister and the police codemm this forum than and will the police use water cannon to shoot down protester just like Hindraf? Any race or religion which does not accept critiscm or suggestion is going down a one way road to failure. As fellow human beings we must all learn to accept changes and proposal for the better of the human race.
#17 by 318 on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 9:06 am
to kassim amat n antiracist all the racist pls have a tour to Indonesia. let me tell when i were working in our neighbour country i do have malay friends when we were sitting to have meal together i did ask them can you sit with where i eat pork the answer was you eat yours i eat mine why cannot sit together another case i am staying in a nearby chinese village there is a pork seller was asked to shift away or else the majlis wiil revoke his license is this you call torelance unity fair your right your previleges did anybody question the official language religion of our country is nep is your right
#18 by yellowkingdom on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 12:39 pm
Syed Hump-it is a no-gooder. Didn’t his “intelligence” indicate that 300 protesters will be demonstrating at the legally-approved permit-granted forum? Why didn’t he deploy the police to diperse the belligerent crowd? Instead this goon sided with the mob to insinuate certain issues as being sensitive and should not be discussed in the open. What, like UMNO-PAS Malay-unity talks? Cannot see the light of day, instead spoken in secrecy, darkness and in deceit. The police instead of enforcing the law indispersing the crowd has colluded with the mob the to disrupt the forum. Blatant disrespect of the law. Bring on IPCMC!
#19 by RGRaj on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 7:00 pm
The protesters have proved the Bar Council right.
There IS a problem with conversion to Islam in Malaysia.
#20 by zak_hammaad on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 10:23 pm
Many comments here of late are reflective of the general rise in anti-Malay and Islamophobic stance taken by non-Muslim minorities, and if they want to compromise national stability for their vested political interests, then be prepared for many more May 13′s!
#21 by Old.observer on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 11:13 pm
zak_hammaad,
You repeated this comment in the previous topic — “Many comments here of late are reflective of the general rise in anti-Malay and Islamophobic stance taken by non-Muslim minorities, and if they want to compromise national stability for their vested political interests, then be prepared for many more May 13’s!”
No, I kindly disagree with this view.
May 13 is most likely manufactured to promote the political ambition of certain individuals.
Here, in this blog, the readership is relatively small. The majority here are open to discussions and reasoning.
It is when we have a closed mind, and a fanatical stance, flamed by the political ambition of a select few, that we have things like May 13.
We should never be afraid of open discussions, so long as it is done respectfully by every parties, supported with facts and sound reasons. I believe all great religious teachers (whether Mohammad, Jesus, Buddha, etc.) practiced these unwaveringly and consistently during their lifetime.
Old Observer.
#22 by dr suresh kumar on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 6:10 pm
zak hamaad,
Your threats about about May 13 happening is just your own figment of imagination.This comment of yours shows your poor analytical mind.The socio-economic conditions of Malaysia in 1969 and now is vastly different.Believe me if another May 13 carnage were to occur,the malays and bumiputers stood to lose the most
this time around.The malays and bumiputeras, without an iota of doubt are enjoying the fruits of labour of the non-bumis through the flawed NEP.I as a true Malaysian would like to see the bumiputeras to be on par with the other communities,but certainly to threaten with the May 13 episode time and again does not reflect maturity.In this fast paced,globalized world what you need as your arms are industry and knowledge and not `keris’.As that will put the country back another 20 years.
Wish all malaysians well.