The police yielding to pressure to disrupt the half-day Bar Council forum on conversion to Islam at 10 am in Kuala Lumpur today is a most adverse reflection on law and order as well as religious harmony in Malaysia on the eve of the 51st Merdeka anniversary.
Malaysia has failed a major test in nation-building to demonstrate that we are shaping up to be a more civil society where sensitive issues of inter-faith problems can be discussed in a mature and responsible manner to promote national unity and religious harmony in the country.
As the Bar Council has made it clear that the forum on religious conversion is not to question the provisions of Article 121(1A) of the Constitution which conferred syariah jurisdiction over Muslims but to address the conflicts of laws facing families caught between the separate jurisdictions of civil and syariah laws, greater understanding, tolerance and sensitivity should have been shown by all Malaysians concerned.
Such understanding, tolerance and sensitivity would undoubtedly have been present in the first four decades of Malaysian nationhood and I have no doubt that if such a forum had been organised ten years ago, there would not have been the insensitive, intolerant and deplorable reaction evident today.
The Police failed in its duty when instead of upholding the law, they sided with the protestors in ensuring the abrupt end of the half-day forum at 10 am.
Are there any Cabinet Ministers who are prepared to raise this episode at Wednesday’s Cabinet meeting to uphold the right to have such forums to be held?
This is unlikely considering the public stand that has been taken by Umno leaders, including the Deputy Prime Minister Najib Razak, Home Minister, Hamid Albar, the Minister in the Prime Minister’s Department, Ahmad Zahid Hamidi and the Education Minister Hishammuddin Hussein demanding that the Bar Council forum should be called off.
Hishammuddin even warned that the Bar Council should not “test the patience of the Malays and Muslims” while the Malacca Chief Minister Mohd Ali Rustam said the Internal Security Act should be used purportedly for the continued questioning of Article 121 of the Federal Constitution “resulting in racial tension”.
#1 by good coolie on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 12:22 am
It is worthwile to go over some of the problems arising from conflict of laws (Shariah and Civil) in the context of conversion.
1. The constitution allows all Malaysian freedom of religion, but Muslims leaving their religion are in effect persecuted through requiring them to undergo compulsory re-education in circumstances where their personal safety in not guaranteed (Lina Joy is an example);
2. The non-muslim wife of a man who converts to Islam in effect loses the right to continue to educate her children in the wife’s non-muslim religion, because the convert manages to convert the child secretly to Islam (The Syamala/Subashini situation).
3. The conversion of a married person into Islam is kept a secret until it is too late for the non-converting spouse to exercise her right to question the legitimacy of the conversion of her spouse (The Murthi situation). Such secrecy also aids the converting spouse in seeking to convert children of the non-Muslim marriage (The Syamala situation);
4. The non-Muslim spouse’s remedy in the civil courts has by judicial interpretation, been abolished by Art.121(1A): that non-Muslim spouse must now submit herself to the jurisdiction of the Shariah Court which is unlikely to declare a converted, living spouse/child to be a non-Muslim;
5. Now, the injustice – I’m sure sincere Muslims themselves recognise that there is injustice as stated above – has to be discussed. The embarassment of Muslims at the present situation
should not be a reason to avoid discussion of it.
6. As to the proper forum, I am not sure how the discussion should be held, and would welcome comments from our commentators as to this.
#2 by ahpiow on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 12:27 am
I just have one comment to make. Non-muslims who intend to marry muslims must know and accept the [deleted] syariah “laws” of the country.
If you marry for love and will accept all consequences of permanent conversion, even though if the union ends up in divorce or separation, then convert.
If you cannot accept this, then think a 100 times before you make your decision to convert. It is better to sever the relationship before you make the commitment. Nobody is to blame if, knowing the consequences, you decide to convert. Blame yourself and don’t expect sympathy from the people.
#3 by m.hwang on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 12:29 am
antiracist, this is a blog so don’t expect any ‘massage’ aromatheraphy or otherwise here. If you mean ‘message’ then why don’t you repost minus all obscenities and stick to the topic. Definitely it will pass moderation.
If that fails then please check your internet connection. This is not chedet.com where censorship is strict.
#4 by Raj Kumar on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 12:29 am
I deplore the Bar Council’s mule headed decision to go ahead and hold this forum at this critical junction in our nations political development. There is so many other issues that need to be tackled, deaths in police custody, conditions in our prison condition, ISA, OSA, standards of legal education in local uni’s. I’m inclined to agree with Zulkipli Noordins call for the bar council to have a more representative management committee, i still cant believe the opportunity that Ambiga lost when they hosted the PM earlier, where instead of bringing up the issue of ISA detainees they practically praised him for doing piecemeal for wronged judges. I also hope YB Karpal Singh doesnt come out with his holier than thou statement on this matter to further complicate things. DSAI must win convincingly in Permatang Pauh, pls dont give ammo to BN
#5 by starter on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 12:34 am
I find that the recent crisis afflicting non-muslim spouses and children very disturbing and a torn in the flesh that could provoke further racial clashes if it’s not dealt with efficiently. Before I comment further,lets evaluate some of the teaching of Islam on this matter so that we can have a better perspective of the issue at hand. If any Islamic scholar thinks that my facts are wrong feel free to correct me as I’m trying my level best as a non muslim to understand your religion better.
In any case the heart of the matter is that children born of Muslim lineage will be considered Muslims and according to Islamic law the door of apostasy will never be opened to them. If anyone of them renounces Islam, he will be as deserving of execution as the person who has renounced kufr (Infidels or Apostate)to become a Muslim and again has chosen the way of kufr. Next ,lets look at how this Islamic teaching first started. During that time Islamic revolution occurs within the Muslim population and people who in belief and practice have defected from Islam and wish to remain as defectors should formally disclose their non-Muslim identity and leave the social order within a year from the date of the notification. After this period all those who are born of Muslim lineage will be considered to be Muslim, they will be subject to all Islamic laws, they will be compelled to perform the religious duties and obligations, and then whoever steps outside the fold of Islam will be executed. Following this announcement utmost effort should be made to save as many sons and daughters born of Muslims as possible from the lap of kufr. Then whoever cannot be saved by any means should be cut off and cast away, sadly but firmly, from his society forever. After this act of purification a new life for Islamic society may begin with only those Muslims who are dedicated to Islam.
You can say about a person who initially was a non-Muslim, then chose Islam and thereafter chose kufr again, that he knowingly erred. Why did he join a community religion, knowing that its door of departure was closed to him? But it is a somewhat different matter when a person himself never accepted Islam but Islam naturally became his religion by virtue of his being born to Muslim parents. If such a person, having arrived at the age of discretion, is dissatisfied with Islam and wants to leave it, it is a terrible injustice to compel him also to remain in Islam and subjecting him to Islamic laws. This extreme law appears even more unfair if only one of the parents is a muslim.
Having a forum to discuss on this issue is not a challenge to the Islamic religion . Many non muslims whom spouse converted to Islam without their knowledge are left without legal means to address their grievances. Is it fair to ask them to seek justice in the syariah court ? This issue needs to be resolve soon and fast by the present government before its too late. Lets discuss about this together with the Islamic authorities and hopefully some solution can be found to address this dilemma . We live in a multiracial and multi religion society and whatever differences should be handle with care and upmost priority especially those related to religion . Sweeping this issue under the carpet is not an option and protesting against the forum is not helping either. Lets sit down together and discuss this issue in a civilized manner and consideration on the sensitiveness of each other religion and find an amicable solution to this issue for the sake of every citizen living in Malaysia.
#6 by goldenscreen on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 12:42 am
fish-warezmasterz, well said..that is why after today each and every right thinking non-Muslim should be thinking of a Plan B for their future, which does not necessarily entail running to other countries. If people cannot get justice or dignity through the political system whether government or opposition, then it is high time we started thinking outside of a political viewpoint and more towards a social viewpoint.
Contrary to your assertions, it has nothing to do with freedom but with dignity. You might ask the Iraqis that, with their new found made in USA freedom, what they think of the Yanks.
#7 by I Malaysian on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 1:08 am
A godly religion has been made into a mockery by some un-nurtured Muslims in Malaysia. The whole conversion to Islam is nothing but a plot by these Muslims. What glory and harmony one could get by secretly converting a person to Islam without the knowledge of his family members. Which godly religion allows one to be an accomplice and instigator to someone who has decided to cheat his parents, siblings, wife and children.
No where in the world we have such situation. Instead of spreading the goodness of their faith to make non-Muslims to respect they are doing everything under the sun to dislike and hate Islam. I hold this group solely responsible for non-Muslims’ fear and dislike. I’m also perplexed how easily ordinary Muslims could be exploited by the few people who wear turban and speak a few Arabic versus claiming they are the twin brother of god.
I really sympathize with them!
#8 by m.hwang on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 1:09 am
Captain, your frustrations are much justified. However the demo today transcends religion. It is political opportunists that took centre stage today. There is a by election coming. All politicians who are fighting for Malay votes will need to do something lest they lose out to their rivals. Similarly non-Muslim politicians also need to speak out in support lest their rivals do it and they don’t.
Sad but true. Bar Council has gotten the timing wrong, deliberate or otherwise. As a result politicians muslim and non took the initiative.
#9 by Tulip Crescent on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 1:12 am
What happened today at the Bar Council Building is a shame on our police force.
A discussion was taking place in a private premise.
Demonstrators were outside. They threatened to storm the premises.
Instead of dispersing the demonstrators, the police told the organisers to stop the discussion.
It was an opportunity lost – lost at the hands of the 200 demonstrators.
I cannot see the neutrality of the police. Another two hours of discussion at a private premises might have come out with some resolutions or proposals.
But it was cut short. Why can’t the police disperse the demonstrators by telling them that if they should storm a private premises, they woud be trespassers?
Maybe, in Malaysia, we should study LOGIC spelt backward as in CIGOL.
#10 by undergrad2 on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 1:27 am
The opposition is playing into the hands of UMNO! Take one baby step at a time! Leave the religion and religious issues alone for now until Pakatan takes over the federal government. This is not an election year. This is stupid of the Bar Council!
#11 by undergrad2 on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 1:29 am
If these lawyers want to flex their muscles they should have done so ages ago – not now!! This is stupid!
#12 by undergrad2 on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 1:31 am
What next?? Is the Bar Council going to propose that Islam ceases to be the “religion of the federation”? Bloody cowards! Nothing but opportunists of the worst kind!
#13 by m.hwang on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 1:48 am
undergrad2, I admit the timing of the forum s@cks. In hindsight it should have jointly organise this forum with a Muslim NGO. Or heck, even the topic could have been less sensitive and venue could have been more neutral. But what’s done has been done.
However, what’s done has given an opportunity to the politicians to get a piece of the action. The real opportunists were in the crowd today and were also issuing press statements in support or opposition to the forum. They are all in one political party or another with either predominantly muslim or non muslim supporters. Everybody wants to say the politically correct thing.
There were real life accounts of victims today. If the Bar Council is genuine in airing their grouses and also having an intellectual discussion about the state of the law in the country then kudos to them. But what the BC has not considered is, and I say this with a caveat that there is no ulterior motive on BCs part, their actions will mobilise a huge band of politicians seizing the moment. I’ll say it again : the timing, topic, venue and planning s@cks!
#14 by punithan shan on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 1:59 am
Dear YB,
Why you are not commenting on PAS and Keadilan who played the “main role” to stop this forum?
A PKR YB even called the crowed to break in the building.
Wich is more racial YB? UMNO who just tried to stop the forum, or PKR and PAS (2/3 of PR) who took their racial stand to the road??
MIC have expressed their press statement on that matter via their youth wing as i posted above.
Is it fair to aim all your ammos towards BN when the things are uglier in your camp?
#15 by sirrganass on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 2:04 am
No, No, No… this is already too dangerous for all of us, at the WRONG TIME too. We have just begun to start working together – DAP / PAS / PKR… and Permatang Pauh is very near already. Who the hell suddenly came up with this lawyer thing trying to talk about ISLAM and put us all in this mess? Can everybody be very carefull in organizing things that may hurt others?
Leave ISLAM and MUSLIM matters to be solved internally by all parties in PAKATAN RAKYAT and PAS is already very good in talking about this. How come suddenly all these unknown lawyer come forward and want to take over this sensitive job?
Pakatan Rakyat can talk to each other ABOUT ISLAM CONVERSION in a special meeting in a near future, in our own FORUM – organised by us. Pls don’t allow other people to do this job for us. NOT EVEN UMNO (do they really understand ISLAM?)
Please.. please… we have a lot of things to do now. Victory is already in our hands – very soon! Don’t spoilt it, for GOD sake…
#16 by m.hwang on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 2:04 am
punithan shan, thanks for lending credence to my assertions.
#17 by sirrganass on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 2:20 am
At them moment, all muslim here in Malaysia are confused and shocked by this FORUM. Who approved it / authorised it and why it is held in that manner. ALL MUSLIM means even PAS and PKR and, of course UMNO, are confused by this move and therefore they object it. If you must blame PAS or PKR for joining in to stop this forum, then, i believe, PAKATAN RAKYAT must invite PKR and PAS to jointly resolve this problem in a special forum or in a man-to-man talk.
Pls, stop blaming and accusing the other party in PR or else UMNO will be very happy to say that our team is already collapsed! By the way, is this forum is organised by DAP?
#18 by pulau_sibu on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 3:11 am
Chinese who were victims of one-child policy or Falungong could gain asylum in the western world. For the converted muslims who have to reconvert, is there such a possibility of asylum in the western world?
#19 by goldenscreen on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 3:24 am
sirrganass, did you see any DAP leader at the forum? No it was a Bar Council forum to have a rational dialogue between Muslims and non-Muslims. And no we should not just sweep this under the carpet just for the sake of a meaningless victory in a by-election. You are in effect saying the same thing as UMNO say to MCA/MIC/Gerakan. Once appeasement starts, it will never end.
And maybe you didn’t understand what the forum was about did you? Leave it to be solved internally by Muslims? Then what about the mother and daughter who had their property seized by the religious authorities, the mother whose insurance was confiscated by the religious authorities, and the pain of all the non-Muslim families when the religious authorities come knocking at their door? How to leave it to be solved internally when it is the non-Muslim families who are burned, hurt, cheated and robbed by the religious authorities?
You all can go and stuff your meaningless and hollow victory down the toilet. Because that is all you are good for – hollow, superficial, surface victories. The time when you are ready to fight for victory on serious issues, on core issues, fundamental issues then we can celebrate. Otherwise why bother? We are just changing the personnel in charge of the system when what we should be concentrating on is changing the system.
And why the rush to take over the government? Is it because Pakatan Rakyat is inherently weak and build on the weakest of foundations that it would crumble if it has to contest with Barisan Nasional for the next 5 years? Say what you like, but BN did win the election and form the government..who is Pakatan Rakyat to annul that election by forming a government through defections?
And don’t bother to give your excuses on winning government through defections. After all Barisan Nasional also can play the same game. Then what would you say then, without making yourself a hypocrite? So easy is it you people sacrifice your principles for the short-term gain?
#20 by undergrad2 on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 4:31 am
m.hwang Says:
Today at 01: 48.06 (2 hours ago)
undergrad2, I admit the timing of the forum s@cks. … even the topic could have been less sensitive and venue could have been more neutral. But what’s done has been done.”
You see, when UMNO starts beating the drums of narrow Malay nationalism (read: Muslim Malay nationalism) it puts everybody on the defensive – including their supporters. History shows that people made to think and feel that they are about to lose their rights, their core values and are put on the defensive will never stop fighting to resist any form of change. It is all about the defense of the status quo.
What we are doing is to give them cause to beat those drums!
#21 by undergrad2 on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 4:37 am
“The Police failed in its duty when instead of upholding the law, they sided with the protestors in ensuring the abrupt end of the half-day forum at 10 am.” Kit
You are assuming that PDRM (rather than just a police force whose primary duty is to maintain public order) is neutral. How could that be when the entire civil service has long lost its neutrality and has become an appendage of the BN machinery?? PDRM did not fail. It excelled in its duty.
#22 by tenaciousB on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 4:51 am
Zulkifli is not fit to be a leader and will cost PKR severe losses if he remains in the party. He has raised antircism sentiments towards the indians and chinese. It is very hurtful for his group of thugs to croak racial slurs yesterday, there was no need to utter “india cina balik and go to hell ” . This country would not be what it is today had it not been for their significant contribution. There is a huge exodus of non malays to australia,new zealand,europe and america since 2000 because of these sort of remarks. Mind you a significant brain drain, talented professionals who have had enough of this nonsence and have become residence in these contries that acknowledge merit based appointments and not race. Even america has recognised a black leader lately. These parties better brace up for the non malays have zero tolerance with these sort of uncalled for sentiments.
#23 by just a moment on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 7:09 am
PPl of PR, Pls pls, stop this centuries old ‘virus’ subject from getting out of hand. We are not there yet?
Yes, I agree the timing s@#!ks,.
I’ve mention before, if theres anything you read that do not
help PR getting into New Government, Its a virus. This topic
is one of them. Be patient lah..
To see ppl issuing threats against individual in this blog shows you just how backward some ppl are. Know what? Some ppl just
refuse to changed – LET GO!
There are many more other stuff
to improved. Im not implying to keep quiet, afterall, this blog
is suppose to be “No hold bars?”. Its the timing, some of our bros have also mentioned it here. Lets be civilised and not Civil-LIES like others?
For now, just take extra caution coz, the stakes are too high now.So closed…. pray for patient, strengths, peace, and wisdom to all our PR ppl.
#24 by Freddy on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 8:15 am
zulkifli noordin arrested under ISA!!
#25 by Jeffrey on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 8:39 am
No reason for Bar Council to be blamed on “timing” of forum. It is a forum on issues pertaining to social justice and law (the Bar Council’s concerns). One can say its wrong timing when PR is making a pitch for Puterajaya. You can say this because some prominent PKR & PAS characters are amongst the 300 protesters generating doubts amongst PR’s suporters why this is so. However the fault lies not with a Bar Council which being apolitical is not concerned as to when is politically the right timing to have that forum. The fault lies with leaders /organisers of the 300 who wanted and succeeded to usurp the public space relating to a rational discourse on conversion cases and problems related to non muslim family members and to stop such a forum (even though it was close door and a lawful one) to demonstrate that their opposition to such a forum was of greater importance that, no matter how small their numbers, authorities would appease. They wanted to assert that their voices and views that such a forum should be stopped represented the views of all Muslims. The fact that authorities helped them stop the forum rather than disperse the demonstration proved and underscored their point that a vociferous minority waving the banner of religion could any time now and in the future always have their way in exerting influence on public opinion disproportionate with their small numbers and succeed in their objectives no matter the other side stopped was lawfully and rationally conducting themselves.
Yes I agree that blaming the police deflects Pakatan Rakyat’s leaders – whether YB Kit or Anwar – of how to deal with elements within the opposition coalition playing the same religious card that they accuse the BN of. Indeed the whole problem of what to do with PAS has not been confronted, since all considerations have been placed on how to reach Putera Jaya without hitches than to address these fundamental issues of ideological differences between PR’s main component parties, the pervasive traits of political opportunism and religious fundamentalism within our political culture which BN has been blamed unable to address but regarding which the PR could do no better as the present incident affecting the Bar Council amply illustrates!
It is not just a adverse reflection of law order/religious harmony – that is in large part true – but equally true is that it is relection that when PR’s members are involved in such unlawful protest and the PR leadership can do nothing about it – then it undermines PR’s credibility to criticise the BN leadership for failing to curb such extremist behaviour or even to fan and gain political mileage out of it.
#26 by Freddy on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 9:04 am
Take it as a lesson. One of the causes for the outrage was the wrong choice of words used. Sang Kelembai has a good piece on this topic.
I think that certain parties are just becoming arrogant and being insensitive to the nature of Malaysian society that has been proven in history to be easily provoked.
#27 by jus legitimum on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 10:23 am
The Beijing Olympic opening ceremony was really an eye opener to the world.The spectacular and successful event was the culmination of the hard work contributed by the people and the liberal and pragmatic policies of the leadership.Countries that are obsessed with backward and foolish religious practices will never attain the progress achieved by the Chinese.
#28 by mauriyaII on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 10:23 am
Don’t the non-muslim citizens of Malaysia have a say when syariah courts in the country ram paritsan decisions down their throats?
The syariah courts don’t have jurisdiction over non-muslims and civil courts do not accommodate any pleas of the non-muslims under the pretext that religious issues (read Islamic religious issues only) are out of their jurisdiction, where are the affected non-muslims to approach for justice?
When civil courts wash off their obligations and duty to see justice is done, then the whole civil jurisprudence of the country becomes a travesty of justice.
Why are the muslims in this country so scared that their religious rights would be compromised by having inter-faith forums or forums to discuss the religious rights of minority religions in the country?
Nobody is usurping their rights that is already enshrined in the constitution as are the rights of non-muslims to practice the religion of their choice.
I thought only UMNO has lost its ability to control its members when they are openly questioning and challenging the leadership. It looks as if PKR and PAS are in the same boat.
The misguided PKR leader from Kulim and the PAS members who made bloody fools of themselves trying to portray themselves as the guardians of Islam in this country are not Malaysians but Malay-Muslim racist who do not understand the Malaysian Constitution and the rule of law.
If Pakatan Rakyat does not control such bigots and take disciplinary action against them, it may find itself in the same quandary as the BN in the next elections and for that matter even in the Permatang Pauh by-elections.
Politicians should stop playing to the gallery. Such short-sightedness does not solve problems but aggravate them.
DON’T ABUSE THE TRUST PLACED IN YOU!
#29 by madmix on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 10:31 am
The stand of all Muslims in Malaysia whether BN or pakatan is clear: Kafirs are not allowed to even TALK about their religion. We have to accept this, that our religious believes are in their eyes, false and we are to live as Dhimmis or convert.
#30 by Jeffrey on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 10:59 am
If after 50 years of independence – and after many many Malaysians of all races have become more educated and tertiary educated – racism and religious extremism have got worse about which neither ruling or opposition coalition could do much about – then what is there to say that for the next 50 years it would likely get better? I think it might get much worse!
#31 by dawsheng on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 11:01 am
The forum organized by the Bar Council was an insult to Muslim.
#32 by dawsheng on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 11:15 am
I am very disappointed with some members of the Bar Council for mishandling the issue of religious conversion, worst of all, to make prejudices against another religion, instead of uniting they divides Malaysian of all races and religions further apart.
#33 by Jeffrey on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 11:17 am
I don’t think Sisters-in Islam would say the forum organised by Bar Council was an insult to Muslim. If something that is inherently not insulting were deliberately construed for political leverage to be insulting by organisers of 20 Muslim NGOs opposing the forum, are we going to say that the judgment of those NGOs holds as truth (that something not insulting can be twisted to be insulting)? And further it may further be asked whether those 20 NGOs including GPMS, Kimma, Muslim Consumer Association and Muslim welfare group Pekida would represent the majority of Muslims in the country in their views? If it is conceded that they do, why don’t we appease and allow the implementation of all that these NGOs advocate? I am sure they advocate or at least not adverse to PAS’s establishment of the Islamic theocratic ala PAS version. If they represent majority, what is the problem in going along with them?
#34 by Jeffrey on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 11:22 am
The issue is whether those who for political mileage would construe every issue as either religiously or racially sensitive when it is not should be appeased and their views no matter contrary to logic or facts should be held in higher regard just because they are justified on some race or religious grounds. Who is arbiter and defines what is an insult or not – the organisations that say it is an insult? Is that all, is it a neutral and fair arbiter?
#35 by dawsheng on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 11:31 am
Those muslims NGOs participating in the public forum to create awareness about Islam conversion should just bring the matter to Syariah and the Federal Court, testify in the court of law the injustice created by their own religion and be the witness of all injustice dispensed by the judge, if all avenues of legal means are exhausted, demonstrate there if they really care.
#36 by badak on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 11:32 am
This ZUL guy .. When he was campaigning he shook everybodies hands,At that time it did not matter if you were a fishmonger or a pork seller.He wanted our votes.
Now that he had won the election his true colors are being shown.Another Malay muslim who gives a bad name to ISLAM.
#37 by bystander on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 11:35 am
I have said before. dont trust PAS and exerise extreme caution with PKR since PKR are also ex-umno members. mindset serupa. they somehow have that fear and lack self assurance and confidence. china’s slogan 1 world 1 dream. malays racist slogan 1 malay race (ketuanan melayu)1 nation. thats is the undenialable fact. no such thing as multiculturalism. lets stop dreaming.
#38 by dawsheng on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 11:38 am
How is it that the public forum on Islam conversion is going to overturn the decision of the court and free those who were force to embrace Islam against their will?
#39 by dawsheng on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 11:46 am
I am not against public forum but let us get the priority right, the fight for justice remains in the court, even if it’s a kangaroo court.
#40 by Jeffrey on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 11:54 am
As far as I know the so called injustices brought about by conversion cases are addressed by whether non muslim or muslim stakeholders concerned with the issues in forums like the one organised by Bar Council because there are simply no other avenues perceived neutral to arbitrate or adjudicate objectively and independently based on fairness. The normal recourse to civil courts has been blocked as existing civil courts’ decisions related to conversions have already deferred to the jurisdiction of Sharia courts by interpretation (or misinterperetation) of the purport of article 121(1)A of the Constitution. Neither government nor civil courts want to look into 121(1)A so that is why civil society, Bar Council and even Sisters in Islam would still want to discuss about the purport, interpretation and ramifications of this provision including unjust consequences to non muslim family members that 121(1)A has brought about. It is also not just an issue of who is right or wrong in interpreting 121(1)A. It is the attempt by intimidation and threat of demonstrations and violence to stop all rational discussions about it – never mind that these discussions canvass a broad spectrum of differing views – that is the worrying issue and portends ill for the country in terms of freedom of expression and the serach fopr balance and compromise via discussion.
#41 by dawsheng on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 11:57 am
Then the Bar Council had failed their primary function.
#42 by limkamput on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 12:08 pm
The opposition is playing into the hands of UMNO! Take one baby step at a time! Leave the religion and religious issues alone for now until Pakatan takes over the federal government. This is not an election year. This is stupid of the Bar Council! undergrad2
i don’t buy it. If PAS and PKR could so vehemently go against BAR council forum now, what make you think that they will change their mind once they are in power? I still can’t see the logic of why some people are so worked up by the BAR council forum. There will never be a good timing no matter when.
#43 by Jeffrey on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 12:10 pm
I have never always tried to defend the Bar Council. Besides maintaining standards of legal profession, its public role is broadly to maintain standards relating to administration of law in the country, which includes organising forums and discussions relating to legal and controversial issues like 121(1)A. It is not a party or litigant in conversion cases. It has not much influence on the government much less the courts or appointment of judges under purview of the government. The organising of forum that was stoped was very much part of itrs primary function. Ensuring Independence and standards of Judiciary is something that is within its function to lobby and speak for but not something within its control for it to be directly blamed where the Judiciary in terms of civil courts shirk from assuming jurisdiction over conversion cases.
#44 by dawsheng on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 12:28 pm
At this point, don’t you think ensuring the independence of the judiciary supersedes everything else its primary functions as required by the council such as organizing public forums etc, when, without an independent judiciary, can the Bar Council function at all?
#45 by Freddy on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 12:35 pm
hahaha some people might think it fun to stir the hornet nest. it’s the awakening!
“Sudah sampai masanya peguam yang beragama Islam mengambilalih teraju kepimpinan Majlis Peguam,”
that’s what this Noordin chap said. well, i dunno the number of Muslim lawyers in Malaysia but i do know that the bn government will waste no effort in churning out the number in no time. guess local universities will become production factories to meet the objective of gaining control of the bra council in due time!
hahahahaha seems ppl forget opportunists lurk everywhere and one small mistake it all it takes to end the game….
game over ppl….
#46 by limkamput on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 12:40 pm
don’t you think ensuring the independence of the judiciary supersedes everything else its primary functions ..dawsheng
Tell us:
1. Can the Bar council on its own ensure judiciary independence?
2. If so, tell us how Bar council should do it (i.e. to achieve that independence you talk about)?
3. i think you are talking without thinking.
#47 by limkamput on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 12:43 pm
hahahahaha seems ppl forget opportunists lurk everywhere and one small mistake it all it takes to end the game….
game over ppl….
What exactly do you mean? Stay low and quiet and pretend nothing has ever happened for the next 50 years?
#48 by k1980 on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 12:49 pm
“I represent Umno. Stop this forum” “Don’t insult Islam” and “You! Chinese, Indians, go to hell!” he shouted…
http://politics101malaysia.blogsome.com/2008/08/09/p2102/
#49 by Freddy on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 12:51 pm
What exactly do you mean? Stay low and quiet and pretend nothing has ever happened for the next 50 years?
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need it be so? who actually expected someone like Obama could actually be the next american president?
the fact is that, we are not ready yet. root cause? UMNO has already tuned the certain segment of society to boss and to lord over the rest in its Ketuanan Melayu. i believe that the first step towards achieving a small degree of success would be to first back Ketuanan Rakyat strongly. anything else that’s done without tact nor patience may derail the whole thing and hence cement the whole segment of society to rally behind Ketuanan Melayu once more.
we have waited and we have tolerated 50 years of ketuanan melayu. if the muslim lawyers, orchestrated by UMNO can eventually churn out the number to ‘democratically’ take over the bra council, i think we will all be crying louder than today whenever we hear the words correct, correct, correct!
#50 by Jeffrey on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 12:52 pm
Ensuring Independence of Judiciary is probably the most important thing as you said because unless we have fair judges of intellectual merits and moral fortutidue to decide right , we’re done for : just like Olympic games, imagine the referees not fair!
But doing something about the Judiciary is immediately govt’s call. Only now because of Lingam’s Enquiry Zaid is proposing some kind of Judicial Apointment Commission and even that final decison on judges apears vested in PM.
For politicians to relent to demands of rakyat for fair and independent judiciary the conventional wisdom is that the rakyat (broad sections of it) wiould be vigilant about such issues and threaten the politicians that unless they implement the reforms, they won’t receive their votes next round.
So ultimately it is gras rot pressures and education of gras roots oin what is important right and fair in a multiracial country is key without which how could real democracy take root?
Bar Council is carrying out its primary function in organising such forum giving all stakeholders of such issues of whatever differing views an oportunity to discuss air and argue rationally the issues even pertaining to conversion cases. It is part of educating the rakyat process so that they could after discussing pros and cons pressure the govt to effect the real changes that are right and fair.
So is the case of the Muslim NGOs opposing the amendment of 121(1)A. Even if you and I don’t agree with their position, I concede that they too have a right to construe that 121(1)A should be retained, and to even influence those who would hear them so that they could together lobby the government not to amend 121(1)A whatever its injustice.
But they should not use threat of violence/public security and demonstration to stop the Bar Council’s forum.
They are entitled to participate in forum though and argue their positions. But they should not stop those of contrary views from exercising their right to freedom of expression to try to educate the public another way.
Of course these protesting NGOs would argue that Freedom of Speech is not unlimited but subject to sentitivity and should not be insulting to their religion.
But the question is the content, nature of discussions, composition of participants insulting to their religion? Is not there an objective test that reasonable people can agree whether or not it is insulting or we must take their view for it?
If interfaith discussions are insulting then why police gave permit to hold forum till 12 noon?
Are we living in a totalitarian state where a section can tell another not to discuss because it is perceived “insulting” to a small vociferious section against all forms of discussion?
I believe they are stopping the Bar Council from carrying out its primary function of promoting rational discussion on such controversial issues that surely canot forever remain buried on arguments that they are controversial or sensitive.
Controversial and sensitive to who?