The police yielding to pressure to disrupt the half-day Bar Council forum on conversion to Islam at 10 am in Kuala Lumpur today is a most adverse reflection on law and order as well as religious harmony in Malaysia on the eve of the 51st Merdeka anniversary.
Malaysia has failed a major test in nation-building to demonstrate that we are shaping up to be a more civil society where sensitive issues of inter-faith problems can be discussed in a mature and responsible manner to promote national unity and religious harmony in the country.
As the Bar Council has made it clear that the forum on religious conversion is not to question the provisions of Article 121(1A) of the Constitution which conferred syariah jurisdiction over Muslims but to address the conflicts of laws facing families caught between the separate jurisdictions of civil and syariah laws, greater understanding, tolerance and sensitivity should have been shown by all Malaysians concerned.
Such understanding, tolerance and sensitivity would undoubtedly have been present in the first four decades of Malaysian nationhood and I have no doubt that if such a forum had been organised ten years ago, there would not have been the insensitive, intolerant and deplorable reaction evident today.
The Police failed in its duty when instead of upholding the law, they sided with the protestors in ensuring the abrupt end of the half-day forum at 10 am.
Are there any Cabinet Ministers who are prepared to raise this episode at Wednesday’s Cabinet meeting to uphold the right to have such forums to be held?
This is unlikely considering the public stand that has been taken by Umno leaders, including the Deputy Prime Minister Najib Razak, Home Minister, Hamid Albar, the Minister in the Prime Minister’s Department, Ahmad Zahid Hamidi and the Education Minister Hishammuddin Hussein demanding that the Bar Council forum should be called off.
Hishammuddin even warned that the Bar Council should not “test the patience of the Malays and Muslims” while the Malacca Chief Minister Mohd Ali Rustam said the Internal Security Act should be used purportedly for the continued questioning of Article 121 of the Federal Constitution “resulting in racial tension”.
#1 by Freddy on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 1:08 pm
aiyoh, what’s the title for the bra council forum again? isn’t it
Conversion into Islam? or Memeluk Islam?
that’s a very general and a very wide interpretation of its contents for those who may not be aware of its ACTUAL agenda. hence it can be easily manipulated to stir sentiments.
wrong choice of words. timing bad. or to put it in perspective, let’s say UMNO wants to play the good guy today and to want to hold a forum to tell all its members to respect the other races especially the Chinese, due to the racial slurs hurled during the protest like ‘babi’, ‘balik Cina’ and the such ….. blah blah blah …. and then in its organising this forum, its subject title as advertised everywhere in radio, tv, newspaper, blogs etc etc etc …. carry simply 3 words ‘babi balik Cina’? Although no matter how noble UMNO wants to be, the subject title for the forum carrying these 3 words will of course create a temperature rising in this hellhole.
now, sum it, no matter how noble, wrong choice of words can always be controversial and sensitive to all who come from different races and religions.
#2 by limkamput on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 1:10 pm
We are not ready yet. Freddy
Please tell me when we are ready. As I posted earlier, you choose one:
Is it appeasement or cooperation? Is it subservient or being patient? Is it blind loyalty or rationality? Is it lack of principle or being practical?
By the way, whether or not the Bar council organised this forum, there will be sufficient number to democratically take over the bra council in the near future!
The issue in the country is not about the number. This issue is idea. Whose idea is more practical, enduring and vibrant? We should confront and challenge archaic idea and idea that has no place in modern time. A better idea should win even though it has initially come from the minority.
#3 by limkamput on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 1:13 pm
…..sorry, The issue is idea.
#4 by Jeffrey on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 1:14 pm
The Bar Council canot be faulted for not caring about Judicial Independence. For one it has spoken and called for it. For two, Bar Council representatives were in the arena to participate in the Lingam RC enquiry (they cross examined even Mahathir) and the Commissioners eventually made findings questioning Judiciary independence.
Regarding the forum, it was a lawful one for which police permit given. The forum itself is an expression of democratic right to freedomm of expression. It was public forum given police permit and hence lawful. All are allowed to participate.
Is it right for a small minority to gather outside in an ilegal assembly threatening public security and even storm the building if the lawful forum inside did not stop because the topic was one the protestors did not like?
What are illegal assemblers given more understanding and rewarded with what they wanted in stoping the forum in denial of those in the forum who have the law on their side (in terms of having police permit) and the constitutional right of freedom of expression on their side and the moral motivation of promoting justice in conversions also on their side?
#5 by Jeffrey on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 1:15 pm
Typo in last para – WHY are ilegal asemblers……
#6 by dawsheng on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 2:19 pm
Police permit were given with motives, the notion that the forum was approved due to politically motivated agendas cannot be ruled out. Though a legitimate forum, the issue of discussion is one that easily misunderstood, the subject of religion itself contained more elements of prejudices in one way or another, whether one like it or not, the topic of discussion was in fact arises from that prejudice. In many country where these prejudices are prevailing, it ended up with hostility worst than just a group of illegal assemblers demanding am immediate stop to a public forum.
Many of us here argued in the context of freedom of religion and the rights of minorities, where all the provisions are clearly stated and enshrined in the federal constitution, nobody can take it away from us unless we gave it away to others. The issues of Islamization that affect this country cannot be taken out of context and made become the basis of anything bad about Islam. Where is the end when the argument is about man made laws are better or God’s law practices by men are the best?
Organizing such a forum to discuss about Islam converts and how their lives have suffered are not very clever discussion to begin with, it is also not a very good reason to call to defend when for example, peace and stability of the country, or transition of government is at stake, knowing that for certain, there are many groups waiting to exploit this golden opportunity, to strengthen their weakened position.
The underlying consequences and the implications of this issue are not limited to the victims of Islam converts. When we said that there are victims, there must be perpetrators, so in this case, are we saying that the Muslims are the perpetrators, I hope not. So what when you have legitimate forum when in actual the illegal assemblers have more valid and legitimate reasons of their to own to force and end to this forum.
#7 by badak on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 2:27 pm
Non Muslim rights started eroding since 1999 went Tun Dr M openly announced that “” MALAYSIA IN AN ISLAMIC STATE”".It is clearly stated in our constitution that “” MALAYIA IS A SECULAR STATE WITH ISLAM AS THE OFFICIAL RELIGION “”
What did MCA MIC PPP and GERAKAN do.. NOTHIG NOTHING NOTHING.
This forum got nothing to do with Malays or the rights of the muslim.It got to do with the rights of non Muslim who are effected with Islam.
#8 by tenaciousB on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 2:41 pm
the funny bit is those hooligans ranted ‘balik china’ during the bar council commotion, little to their ignorance, the malays originated from china. so if want to balik, baliklah bersama. Don’t also forget the indian songkok, eating with hands, hinduism, sanskrit vocabulary all were once part of tanah melayu too. It’s hillarious when they shout in utter ignorance.
#9 by m.hwang on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 3:02 pm
Freddy Says:
Today at 12: 35.37 (2 hours ago)
‘hahaha some people might think it fun to stir the hornet nest. it’s the awakening!
“Sudah sampai masanya peguam yang beragama Islam mengambilalih teraju kepimpinan Majlis Peguam,”
that’s what this Noordin chap said. well, i dunno the number of Muslim lawyers in Malaysia but i do know that the bn government will waste no effort in churning out the number in no time. guess local universities will become production factories to meet the objective of gaining control of the bra council in due time!’
Although splinter groups of pro UMNO lawyers have tried before they have never enjoyed majority support. Muslims lawyers form a sizeable number in the Bar Council but fortunately for us a majority of them are thinking citizens who look down on the spineless UMNO who are only good when it comes to creating and distributing projects.
Muslim lawyers are one ahead of the poltician goons of both divides who try to play up religious sentiments to gain support. For now this goon Noordin is only blowing hot air. In the BC he is nothing and has lost whatever respect that he had before, if any.
This goon knows very well that it was never the forum’s intention to question the constitution, knows who the panelists and mediators were but still went ahead to ensure the Muslims get angry over something they have little or no information on. Noordin knows a lot of Muslims will just rely on what he tells them without checking the facts and looks like he got that spot on.
However I am still of the view that the timing, venue, heading of the topic and organisation could have been better thought of first whereby this forum would have passed unnoticed. Next time get a Muslim NGO to jointly organise this forum. As they say there are many ways to built a house.
#10 by limkamput on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 3:17 pm
So what when you have legitimate forum when in actual the illegal assemblers have more valid and legitimate reasons of their to own to force and end to this forum.dawsheng
The illegal assemblers have more valid and legitimate reasons? How and What? Give me examples, otherwise these are rhetorical nonsense. You now even want to speculate why police permit was given for the forum. I am sure if no permit was given, you probably have lots to say also. By the way, who is talking about the bad of Islam?
I think your primary concern is to safeguard the fragile relationship among the PR members. Never mind we trade in principle, value and belief, so long as the bond among PR members remains intact. I say this is nonsense. If they can’t agree now, they will be worse when they are in power.
#11 by BaronV on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 3:42 pm
“The Muslims did not force the non-muslims to convert to Islam.”
yeah right…..
what planet are you from??
many converts are pressured and compelled to convert as well as offerd ‘gifts’ if they convert (this applies mainly or solely to the poor)
also dont forget 2 things:
a) the law forces a man or a woman to convert to islam before they can marry their boyfriend or girlfriend who is a muslim
MORE IMPORTANTLY
b) many of these new converts unilaterally and forcibily convert children without their spouse or their own child’s consent. The spouse is also forced to seek justice at the syariah courts. And there can be no justice at the syariah court for a non muslim against a muslim trying to forcibly convert family to islam or for property etc because of CONFLICT OF INTEREST.
non muslims cannot get inheritance from muslim family members
#12 by dawsheng on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 3:53 pm
You can choose not to follow the law.
#13 by One4All4One on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 4:06 pm
Wither is Malaysia going?
It is a glaring failure of the administration and its officials ( the prime minister’s office and the ministers ) to have not contributed positively to the open forum organised by the bar council.
In fact it is a desertion of responsibilities of the highest order on their part.
What’s wrong with discussing issues of importance to the public at large, more so an issue which would clear the air for Malaysians who are living in a pluralistic and multi-religious environment? It makes no sense that religious matters could not be discussed openly at all. It is as if a segment of the Malaysian citizenry has the sole and absolute right to a particular religion? Who says Islam belongs to the a particular ethnic group in Malaysia, or as if it was made to seem to be so all this while?
To be sure, not one true religion belongs to any one particular ethnic group in the whole wide world, let alone any particular ethnic group in Malaysia. Unless it is clearly an ethnic-based creed (as opposed to a major revelation which is for the whole of humanity), and originated and practised by a particular people, no one can lay claim to a particular religion. To do so would run counter to the precepts an teachings of the religion itself.
The administration should have come out strongly to encourage open discussions which would contribute greatly to better understanding among the various ethnic groups in the country. It was made clear that no attempt would be made to override any laws or principles outlined in the nation’s constitution. To do so would be irresponsible.
However, the silence or indication that such open discussion would cause racial tension and unrest is illogical and nonsensical. Any right thinking individual would have thought otherwise. And to go with the uninitiated and those with ulterior motives that such discussions are dangerous smacks of stoking social unrest and misunderstanding itself. It is just akin to adding salt to the wounds on their part.
How is the country to progress meaningfully and intelligently if such a basic and necessary discussion is not encouraged or allowed? Enlightenment could only be attained by treading the path of wisdom and sensible openness.
Humanity had been through trials and tribulations to come to where it is now. And it was through questioning, inquiring, debating, querying and constructive arguing that learning and teaching could be effected. If there are wrongs, correct them.
It seems that parochialism and opportunistic tendencies are the order of the day in Malaysia, and being abused by parties with ulterior motives. It seems that certain religious groups are also riding on such events to serve their own interest to influence the misguided and to perpetuate ignorance. What else could it be then?
Malaysia seems to be headed to the dark ages with its current incompetency at the helm, as no leaders seem to have come out strongly to right the wrong. Wrong signals have been sent out. And it would take a stronger signal to quell the fire of resentment and misunderstanding that had been allowed smouldered.
Selfish interest, parochial practices, racial discrimination and prejudice have no place in Malaysia. Let good sense prevail.
#14 by One4All4One on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 4:10 pm
Wither is Malaysia going?
It is a glaring failure of the administration and its officials ( the prime minister’s office and the ministers ) to have not contributed positively to the open forum organised by the bar council.
In fact it is a desertion of responsibilities of the highest order on their part.
What’s wrong with discussing issues of importance to the public at large, more so an issue which would clear the air for Malaysians who are living in a pluralistic and multi-religious environment? It makes no sense that religious matters could not be discussed openly at all. It is as if a segment of the Malaysian citizenry has the sole and absolute right to a particular religion. Who says Islam belongs to the a particular ethnic group in Malaysia, or as if it was made to seem to be so all this while?
To be sure, not one true religion belongs to any one particular ethnic group in the whole wide world, let alone any particular ethnic group in Malaysia. Unless it is clearly an ethnic-based creed (as opposed to a major revelation which is for the whole of humanity), and originated and practised by a particular people, no one can lay claim to a particular religion. To do so would run counter to the precepts and teachings of the religion itself.
The administration should have come out strongly to encourage open discussions which would contribute greatly to better understanding among the various ethnic groups in the country. It was made clear that no attempt would be made to override any laws or principles outlined in the nation’s constitution. To do so would be irresponsible.
However, the silence or indication that such open discussion would cause racial tension and unrest is illogical and nonsensical. Any right thinking individual would have thought otherwise. And to go with the uninitiated and those with ulterior motives that such discussions are dangerous smacks of stoking social unrest and misunderstanding itself. It is just akin to adding salt to the wounds on their part.
How is the country to progress meaningfully and intelligently if such a basic and necessary discussion is not encouraged or allowed? Enlightenment could only be attained by treading the path of wisdom and sensible openness.
Humanity had been through trials and tribulations to come to where it is now. And it was through questioning, inquiring, debating, querying and constructive arguing that learning and teaching could be effected. If there are wrongs, correct them.
It seems that parochialism and opportunistic tendencies are the order of the day in Malaysia, and being abused by parties with ulterior motives. It seems that certain religious groups are also riding on such events to serve their own interest to influence the misguided and to perpetuate ignorance. What else could it be then?
Malaysia seems to be headed to the dark ages with its current incompetency at the helm, as no leaders seem to have come out strongly to right the wrong. Wrong signals have been sent out. And it would take a stronger signal to quell the fire of resentment and misunderstanding that had been allowed to smoulder.
Selfish interest, parochial practices, racial discrimination and prejudice have no place in Malaysia. Let good sense prevail.
#15 by I Malaysian on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 4:11 pm
Is this what Muslims value and practice in Malaysia? Is this what they mean being a good Muslim all about? What difference it makes between these Malaysians who claim they are Muslims and those who call themselves servants of God but terrorizing the world and its innocent people?
Article 121 is created by few leaders in Malaysia and it’s not god written. Those lawyers from Bar Council are not challenging Koran’s versions. In fact some of Muslim brothers and sisters too have joined today’s forum. Does it mean these Muslims have become less Muslims now?
I believe we must learn to be human first. We must understand GOD is for all. Human no matter how clever they are, how big their position is, always are imperfect and it means any manmade law could be viewed positively for improvements. We make mistakes. Religion is for one to follow and be liberated spiritually. It is being perceived completely wrong by most people in Malaysia today, however.
Let me tell a true little story about my daughter:-
About a year ago my daughter who was 12 years then, came back after school, crying. As concerned father I asked her why she was crying, she asked me this:
“Are we Hindus, right? I said yes. She asked me again, “My Malay friends told me, our god is devil, only Muslims’ is real God. And she said we all pray to idols and Satan. Is it so?” I was shocked for a second, because how this little Malay Muslim girl has been misguided and to disrespect others’ faith. But I said to my little girl. The Malays pray to god, yes its true so do we. You see, God is all, god is every where. God can even be found in stone, in wood. God is everything. He is in you, in me and also in the Malay girl who told you that. She was not convinced fully. So I continued, “Do you think if god loves a person he would bless the person with good things, for which my daughter said yes, of course. I continued again by asking my girl, who do you think between two of you is smarter? My daughter was quick to say she was, I asked again, who you think is prettier between two of you; she said she was; And I posed my daughter the final question, who do you think between the two of you is kinder and helpful; my daughter said once again, she was better than the other girl. So I told my daughter, “so you see now, God is the kindest, the loveliest and the most intelligent, and he likes you so much that he has made you into a beautiful, intelligent and kind young girl. My daughter was the happiest girl learning that. But I told my daughter another thing. God shall never look down on another, so please do not look down upon others, treat them how god treats you. My daughter followed my advice. The girl’s name is Amira and she is one of the best friends of my daughter until today.
Those who have understood God and submitted themselves to him do not fear of another being taking away their share. Your share is yours; my share is mine; no one could take away from you except God himself.
Hence, fighting with an illusion mind, wrongly believing in safeguarding ones interest is nothing but a show of disloyalty and disbelief to the very creator who created you and me. ISLAM, please learn the true meaning of this faith, dear Malaysian Muslims! !
#16 by hiro on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 4:44 pm
It looks to me that in real politik terms, minority religious rights are going to take a backseat as PKR and PAS takes on UMNO for Malay majority votes.
But this is as good as any a time for Anwar to come clean and take a clear and unequivocal stand of what he believes to be the future of Malaysia – is it one where sensitive issues cannot be discussed, because that could mean anything… or it is one where any issues can be discussed in a civilised manner?
Anwar cannot equivocate on this matter anymore. He has to make his stand know. I personally feel sanguine about this – in that even if he says sensitive issues can be discussed, I don’t think Malay votes, not especially in Penang, will swing to UMNO. In fact, they have every reason to swing to PKR, because we must be a nation that moves forward, and not backwards. We must become more mature, not less. And mature people can discuss anything and agree to disagree, no matter how emotive the subject is.
#17 by damianyeow on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 4:50 pm
As the recent fiasco at the Bar council meeting has clearly proven & demonstrates 3 important points as follows
In Malaysia, the Bolehland
1) This religion=not peaceful=violent
2) This religion=not democratic=no discussion allowed
3) This religion=repressive= alternative views prohibited
So who in their right mind would want to convert to such an ‘angry’ religion. There should be a law effective immediately, banning anyone from converting so no more such disputes. This will provide a win-win conclusion for everyone, or will it?
#18 by Loh on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 5:14 pm
The choice of religion is a personal matter, and the constitution of the country allows the people the right to choose freely what religion he wishes to belong. But in practice, only non-Muslims are allowed freedom to be converted to become Muslims, and not the other way round.
The purpose of the disruption of the Bar Council Forum seemed to be to prevent any discussions on the current practice, and to stop any possibility of changing the status quo.
If religious practice is a personal matter, then it should not concern members of any religion about who enters or exits the religion. But the practice now that exiting Islam requires confirmation of the Syariah court gives Muslims no choice on the matter. A person born a Muslim has to die a Muslim. Is that the practice of Islam worldwide? Is that Islamic law based on the teaching of Koran?
It seems that Muslims in other part of the world are allowed to leave the Islamic faith when they please. Was it a failure of the religion in those countries which allow Muslims to leave their faith because the governments fail in their duties, or was it that those governments consider it beyond their duties to be concerned with religious belief?
The concerned government departments in Malaysia watch over the issues of conversion, and the religious practices undertaken by Muslims. Unless Muslims themselves think that they should have the freedom to leave, the matter should not concern non-Muslims. But if the number of Muslims who wanted a change to the current practice is small in number, should others give them the support.
Democracy allows freedom of choice. When the majority population might not be directly affected by a certain government regulation, their views which might be concerned more with justice even if they are not personally involved should prevail. Malaysia is said to practice parliamentary democracy, and elections have been conducted since independence. For that the choice should be based on informed decision. People can only be informed if they are allowed to discuss issues of interest. It is the duty of the government to ensure that discussions are allowed to take place without disruption by unruly elements of the society. No topic is sensitive if politicians in power do not declare them so. No issue described as sensitive could become less sensitive over time because it is always a political judgment. The forum organized by the Bar Council was declared unwelcome by the UMNO leaders because they wanted to portray themselves as saviors of the Islamic religion. Politicians of other brands could not allow UMNO the monopoly. That was how religion and race issues will ruin the country.
From newspaper reports there were only a handful of born Muslims, such as Linda Joy, who wanted to leave Islamic faith. Most others who wanted to leave were those who belong to others before becoming Muslims. Perhaps adult Muslim converts should be informed that it was a one way street on conversion. For the minors who were led into becoming Muslims, they are not different from the born Muslims. Migration might be the only way out.
#19 by tenaciousB on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 5:22 pm
A thought many take for granted, what if all indians and chinese were to migrate out of malaysia, what would be the state of things….wild guess would be…a non existent bar council, empty clinics, ghost cities(no chinese traders), a share market the size of a pea. Seriously they actually are the movers and shakers of this nation, it would be a nightmare if they disappeared. the country would be worst off then papua new guinea. appreciate your brethrens , stop the racial slurs and think of building relationships, that’s what malaysias about.:)
#20 by pkrisnin on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 6:04 pm
Bar council needs to take a reality check. THIS MALAYSIA
Political parties will use any event to gather support. And with religion so entrench with politics what were they expecting. A Civilized forum, how long have they been living in Malaysia ?
At least hold the forum in Singapore where the police won’t be so bias.
#21 by boh-liao on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 6:05 pm
As published in the Star (10.8.08): Jeanne Danker was born in 1953 to a Catholic Portugese-Eurasian family.
“I practised being a good Catholic. I went to church, attended catechism classes and read the scriptures,” she said.
She converted to Islam more than 30 years ago. “My mum and dad were happy that I was happy and accepted that I wanted to be a Muslim.”
Did the Catholics prevent Jeanne Danker’s conversion to Islam?
#22 by badak on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 6:14 pm
Its a shame when some MALAYS shouts balik CHINA balik INDIA.When they themself have BUGIS,JAVANESS,INDIAN ,CHINESS,DUTCH and PORTUGUES BLOOD running through their veins.
#23 by RGRaj on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 6:43 pm
If Malaysian Muslims didn’t force Islam into the throats of non-Muslims, then they wouldn’t be having a forum discussing their rights.
I mean, anybody would be pissed off to find their just departed loved ones being suddenly body snatched by Muslims.
It’s simply a case of, “If you don’t want me to complain about you, then stop touching me & keep your hands to yourself.”
Muslims shouldn’t be lamenting when they have encroached into another’s territory (intentionally or otherwise) & expect the other party to keep quiet about it.
#24 by StevePCH on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 7:52 pm
fanatics. can’t take thing proper. Stop voting for Zulkifli next time around. Too emotional, does not deserve to be a MP. Behave like Ameno thugs.
An open forum shows that there is nothing to hide. Only fanatics need to talk behind closed doors. same as criminals and terrorist.
He himself and presumably Anwar also does not understand the feelings and predicaments of these people of “UNKNOWN” religion status. If it is the other around, I think there will be war.
#25 by zak_hammaad on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 10:30 pm
“Nation-building” is never done at the expense of majority sentiments and by trampling over the constitution that enshrines Islam as the official religion. What the bar council attempted to do was to try to test the waters at bucking the trend of rising Islamic influence in Malaysian politics. They failed because secularism has no place in Islam and consequently, Malaysia which has over 62% Muslims!
Many comments here of late are reflective of the general rise in anti-Malay and Islamophobic stance taken by non-Muslim minorities, and if they want to compromise national stability for their vested political interests, then be prepared for many more May 13′s!
The non-Muslim minorities need to learn to respect the feeling’s of the majority if they want the same appreciation and respect in return; if we want a win-win situation and a truly successful nation building excercise, we need to bridge the religious divide, which is the ultimate impediment to Malaysia’s development and continued stability!
#26 by Federick on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 10:31 pm
As much as we might want to bring this issue to bring to light, I think this is truly not the right time to discuss about this problem.
Don’t you see it, why would the authority allow the forum in the first place…just becos this can later be used as a weapon against you again…causing a lot of confusions…and making more people to misunderstand the issues…especially the kampung folks…I bet you, you can discuss until the cow came home, but this problem will never be understand by the nation at large…at least for now…hence, do not be so stupid to expose your position…like a game of chess…
#27 by StevePCH on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 11:21 pm
dear zak, personally I am not anti malay. I do not think many “minorities” are as well. we are brothers struggling to survive in this mess created by BeEnd.
I am not against Islam either. sometimes, when lines are not clearly drawn, it is good to have a forum. controversy had to be settle through court causing much pain and economic loss to the families as well as nation.
What is the harm to have a forum to iron out these problems from the view point of law ?
Anyway, as what Federick just said, not the right time to mention it. Else end up goin to jail for sedition …sigh
#28 by Old.observer on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 11:26 pm
I really don’t understand why there is such a strong protest from just 300+ protestors, and such a big fuss …
This is a meeting organized by the Bar Council.
The purpose is to address conflicts of laws.
It is not intended to question provisions of Article 121(1A) of the Constitution, which conferred syariah jurisdiction over Muslims.
It is only intended “to address the conflicts of laws facing families caught between the separate jurisdictions of civil and syariah laws”.
Since the objective to to make our laws better, why the protests?
Why the fear when the objective is to make our laws better?
Is it due to the fear of inadequate representation from certain parties?
If so, why didn’t these parties voice their concerns that they are inadequately represented?
Are these parties concerned about their inability to discuss in a civil and adult-like manner, with proper data and reasoning?
Or is this protest a deliberate attempt to pursue hidden and selfish agendas?
If we truly strive for national unity, then, all parties must be able to come together and discuss in a civil and respectful manner. With mutual and genuine intentions to forge national unity.
National unity cannot be forced upon others. It can only be encouraged, and when there are mutual intentions to unite.
Old Observer.
#29 by sirrganass on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 11:35 pm
Goldenscreen; well done. Thks for the comment. Good! And on understanding that situation, i, again, would like to tell you that PAS is more then willing to have a forum with anybody (even DAP/PKR) on any Islamic Issue and also about that daughter/mother you are talking about. Read this: http://www.harakahdaily.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=16288&Itemid=50
EVERYBODY: Please READ that link.
All of you seem to be so eager to see some changes in this issue. Now we are still under UMNO and our ISLAM is known as ISLAM HADHARI (so many kinds of ISLAM? – i don’t know) But once the PAKATAN RAKYAT rule Malaysia, please make it a point that this forum is thoroughly discussed again. In fact MUSLIM himself will be openned to a more realistic kind of law. For instance, if anybody accuses you of SODOMY/RAPE etc, there must be 4 witnesses. And more muslim will not steal or accept curruption worrying their hands to be chopped down (!!!). And of course, non-muslim can opt to any secular civil law. Double standard? Two Laws? While, Malaysia seems to be like this…(!)
PKR may be something else because many of them are BORN IN UMNO. But do everybody know that majority of PAS strongmen have been rejecting UMNO since DAY ONE?
Lim Kiat Siang will jot it down that the first thing to talk about when PR hold the power is to resolve this sensitive matter. This should be a valid admisible matter and Nik Aziz is not that stuck-up to refuse talking about this. The only thing is that CURRENTLY HE HAS NOT GOT THE REAL POWER. So, UMNO is currently responsible.
Don’t be sad. Try again to talk about this in a more gentlemen manner once we have the power…. pls! We are on the way already!
#30 by m.hwang on Sunday, 10 August 2008 - 11:43 pm
zak_hammaad you sound eerily like TDM prior to every impending elections. In fact you sound like a lot of UMNO ‘leaders’ today. Everytime someone opens their mouth it’s May 13. Organise something it’s May 13. Someone farts it’s May 13.
I admit the Bar Council could have done it better by not doing it in the first place (see my earlier posts). However if you continue to insist the forum is to question Article 121 then you are the same as the protestors (all politicians 300 of them).
There was a clear intention to deceive the uninformed for the sole prpose of inflaming the masses for their own political gains. Now everyone knows there is a Khalid Noordin. Before this he was just another MP to some and to most nobody knows who he is (including most Kulim residents).
You see my point? Maybe you should ask yourself whether you know what the forum is all about, who were the panelists, invitees, mediators, topics of discussion before feeding us with your propaganda.
It reminds me of the story where a group of villagers at the behest of its Chief burns the house of someone who is rumoured to own a book that could have insuanated something adverse to Islam but it turned out no one found the book. Better still no one in the village could read in the first place save for the Chief and the Chief didn’t even bother reading the book.
#31 by badak on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 12:07 am
boh lioa …well said…. As usual zak hammaad when were you born.Why bring up MAY 13.This episode was so screwed by your UMNO led BN GOVERNMENT that nobody no the whole truth..
#32 by undergrad2 on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 1:41 am
dawsheng Says:
Yesterday at 11: 57.28
Then the Bar Council had failed their primary function.”
….and the lawyers disbarred.
#33 by undergrad2 on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 1:43 am
“They failed because secularism has no place in Islam …” zak_hahamad
If that is not a contradiction in terms I don’t know what is.
#34 by undergrad2 on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 1:45 am
“…if they want to compromise national stability for their vested political interests, then be prepared for many more May 13’s!” zak_hahamad
It is OK to take lives in the interest of political stability. OK – anything new from a coconut head?? Limkamput?
#35 by kcb on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 3:16 am
dear zak_hammaad, I think you should read what RGRaj had posted
yesterday at 18: 43.12.
It is hollow to say that, “The non-Muslim minorities need to learn to respect the feeling’s of the majority if they want the same appreciation and respect in return; if we want a win-win situation and a truly successful nation building excercise, we need to bridge the religious divide, which is the ultimate impediment to Malaysia’s development and continued stability!”
How to bridge the divide when one party can’t even tolerate open discussion of some pertinent issues?
Bridge the religious divide by keeping mute???
#36 by Bigjoe on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 9:16 am
On tv, the one clip that keep coming back to me was the guy who grabbed the microphone to prevent others from speaking and when a chinese older man tried to snap his picture with a camera, the man slapped his camera. Then the old man attacked him only to be held back by the police and other participants.
Its a sign of things to come. Think Hindraf. These incidents just sents the message to Hindraf supporters that they will never see justice without violence. Right now most of them are passive as shown by their hunger strike this weekend. But at some point, a tragedy, a stupidity like we saw this weekend will trigger violence. Its a matter of time.
More than anything else I am convinced by Najib’s response to the incident: “I told you so”. Admist what are serious problems, our annointed next Chief Executive gloats about how smart he is when in reality he is not. Who would NOT know it was going to bring out the monkeys!!! The man has no real answer to what ails us for the future. He will be the PM that comes in with the most baggage ever steeped in the traditions of UMNO politics in every form, an expired formula.
#37 by Godfather on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 1:03 pm
“The non-Muslim minorities need to learn to respect the feeling’s of the majority if they want the same appreciation and respect in return; if we want a win-win situation and a truly successful nation building excercise, we need to bridge the religious divide, which is the ultimate impediment to Malaysia’s development and continued stability.” Zak
You tape the mouths of the minorities, and then say it is a win-win situation ? We have been going up a one-way street for God-knows-how-long.
#38 by Loh on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 1:50 pm
///“The non-Muslim minorities need to learn to respect the feeling’s of the majority if they want the same appreciation and respect in return///—Zak
When the words minorities and majority are used in the above sentence, it is the word bully that controls the thought. You respect others not because they can bully you. You cannot demand respect just because you have the number to bully.
#39 by i_love_malaysia on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 1:53 pm
There’s no point talking or arguing with those who lack the capacity to understand and always want others to respect them as if they are the “taiko” because they are the majority here but not in the world. It is just like arguing between a professor and a primary school student. If the primary student failed to understand or win the argument, he might scratch the professor’s car (e.g. calling others “Babi”!!!). The worst thing is that the primary student failed to understand that in order for him to understand, he needs to study hard, humble and never take shortcut to acquire knowleadge and wisdom!!! But too sad that the education minister is telling the primary school student that it is ok not to understand anything as long as you belong to the Supreme Race!!!
#40 by i_love_malaysia on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 2:57 pm
We respect one another not because it is out of nos. or fear, it is purely out of respect and it must be earned!!! it doesnt matter whether you are one or 10 billion people!!! If you speak the truth even if you are just one person compared to 10 billion who speak otherwise, the one who speak the truth shall prevail and be sure that the Almighty is always behind you!!! Mind you, 10 billion people who did wrongs doesnt make it a right!!! Similarly, the majority here may not necessarily be right in everything and at all times!!! Time to grow up!!!
#41 by zak_hammaad on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 6:35 pm
m.hwang, I understand the story you put forward, but this is not about stories but ground realities. FYI, I am as much anti-umno as you probably are pro-umno. Mouths are always opening by the wise and the unwise, innumerous political and non-political events are taking place daily; this means nothing unless their agenda is scruitinised.
The bar council’s untimely and untoward move caused an expectant outcome because of the sensitive nature of the forum. As a society comprising different races, Malaysians have displayed the spirit of tolerance and respect to the other races in the past and this was due to acceptance of differences and not rejection of them.
#42 by AA234567 on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 11:44 pm
Permatang Pauh please vote for BN!
#43 by AA234567 on Monday, 11 August 2008 - 11:49 pm
zak_hammaad Says:
Today at 18: 35.24 (5 hours ago)
The bar council’s untimely and untoward move caused an expectant outcome because of the sensitive nature of the forum.
————————————————————–
Forum timing is questionable -”Untimely” 100% Agreed.
#44 by One4All4One on Thursday, 14 August 2008 - 6:32 am
dear zak_hamaad,
I felt compelled to touch a little on issues you raised in the post.
First of all, do not misconstrue that the minorities here in Malaysia do not have respect for the majority ( you know who they are ). I am a “minority”, and I have a fair bit of “majority” friends or acquaintances. And relation have been cordial and warm. And I believe and can see that a lot of minorities are in my position too.
And as far as nation building is concerned, the administration has the main role to play. What can you expect the general reactions to be when policies are lop-sided? Even outsiders who are neutral parties, and I mean real outsiders ( foreigners visiting here ) could sense and perceive the discrimination and prejudiced policies.
Opportunists and bigots and religious fundamentalists ( especially those who have personal agenda and exploiters of religions ) are seen to have a hand in deciding policies and opinions in Malaysia. It is a sad situation where the masses , who are not well-versed in matters religious, are being exploited to defend a few of those are astray.
Let’s have mutual respect and be open about all issues. Nothing should be sensitive any more in this age and era. Discuss rather than confront, if there are contentious issues.
#45 by zeezeetop on Tuesday, 19 August 2008 - 4:01 am
zak_hammaad and a host of Muslim columnists in the media have been harping about ‘trampling over the constitution that enshrines Islam as the official religion’, and the so-called arrogance and defiance of The Bar Council in going ahead with the open discussion on the issue of non-Muslim converts to Islam.
The simple question that seems to elude the hard-heads is… how can the status of Islam as the official religion be compromised if a non-Muslim who intends to convert, inform his wife and family?
Does ‘peaceful, tolerant and merciful’ mean that when a Muslim convert dies, the ‘body-snatchers’ appear during the time of grief of the converts loved ones eventhough they had no clue of the conversion as obviously the convert was not practicing the religion [you can't pray 5 times a day and keep it a secret!]?
Or that a wife finds out that her husband and her children are suddenly Muslims and she has to depend on the Shariah Courts to grant custody of a couple of Muslim infants to a non-Muslim? I’ll have a better chance of spotting a Unicorn on the LDP!
…and even discussing this is such a sensitive issue?