Disruption of Bar Council forum on conversion - adverse reflection on law and order/religious harmony
The police yielding to pressure to disrupt the half-day Bar Council forum on conversion to Islam at 10 am in Kuala Lumpur today is a most adverse reflection on law and order as well as religious harmony in Malaysia on the eve of the 51st Merdeka anniversary.
Malaysia has failed a major test in nation-building to demonstrate that we are shaping up to be a more civil society where sensitive issues of inter-faith problems can be discussed in a mature and responsible manner to promote national unity and religious harmony in the country.
As the Bar Council has made it clear that the forum on religious conversion is not to question the provisions of Article 121(1A) of the Constitution which conferred syariah jurisdiction over Muslims but to address the conflicts of laws facing families caught between the separate jurisdictions of civil and syariah laws, greater understanding, tolerance and sensitivity should have been shown by all Malaysians concerned.
Such understanding, tolerance and sensitivity would undoubtedly have been present in the first four decades of Malaysian nationhood and I have no doubt that if such a forum had been organised ten years ago, there would not have been the insensitive, intolerant and deplorable reaction evident today.
The Police failed in its duty when instead of upholding the law, they sided with the protestors in ensuring the abrupt end of the half-day forum at 10 am.
Are there any Cabinet Ministers who are prepared to raise this episode at Wednesday’s Cabinet meeting to uphold the right to have such forums to be held?
This is unlikely considering the public stand that has been taken by Umno leaders, including the Deputy Prime Minister Najib Razak, Home Minister, Hamid Albar, the Minister in the Prime Minister’s Department, Ahmad Zahid Hamidi and the Education Minister Hishammuddin Hussein demanding that the Bar Council forum should be called off.
Hishammuddin even warned that the Bar Council should not “test the patience of the Malays and Muslims” while the Malacca Chief Minister Mohd Ali Rustam said the Internal Security Act should be used purportedly for the continued questioning of Article 121 of the Federal Constitution “resulting in racial tension”.
August 9th, 2008 at 15: 04.17
The Muslims did not force the non-muslims to convert to Islam.
August 9th, 2008 at 15: 15.53
Judging from what happened to the Bar Council Forum today and how the police and people behaved, Vision 2020 looks set to be a failure - we still have a long long way to go before we achieve that goal!
August 9th, 2008 at 15: 16.04
very sad that we cant even do a discussion peacefully.
but more sad was that those act rude were fr Keadilan MP
for Kulim !!! Keadilan - Umno same kah???
August 9th, 2008 at 15: 18.12
YB, how come u didnt condemn PAS and Keadilan??
double standard???
August 9th, 2008 at 15: 19.37
~~ dawsheng (9/8/08, 15: 04.17) Says:
The Muslims did not force the non-muslims to convert to Islam.~~
It is not about forcing or not forcing the conversion to Islam…
It is an avenue to discuss on the ‘grey area’ in the Law dual to dual -legal system that existed in the country. A forum which can come out with a proposal to end ‘bodies snatching’ incidences .
Malaysian should be more open and mature to hold discussion and to let forums to take place where solutions to issues and problems can be found.
A truth is always a truth, would not become less truth caused by any forms of discussions.
August 9th, 2008 at 15: 21.10
correction… It is an avenue to discuss on the ‘grey area’ in the Law due to dual -legal system that existed in the country. A forum which can come out with a proposal to end ‘bodies snatching’ incidences .
August 9th, 2008 at 15: 26.06
Careful, careful….UMNO is going to warn us that they will sue us for defamation. UMNO is going to warn us not to raise any issue where they have used to hide behind their schemes to steal. So don’t use race or religion, no matter how legitimate they may be.
Stealing is a hard habit to break.
August 9th, 2008 at 15: 28.01
sudah cakap tak boleh coz it will cause emo, but the council din heed. so now the crowd protested, and then blame the gov …. everything oso blame gov but din blame itself ….
August 9th, 2008 at 15: 28.25
The so called ‘grey area’ is the result of an individual’s wants and desires which later became his/her own mistake.
August 9th, 2008 at 15: 29.15
Kasim Amat, Rose Fashion - these UMNOputras are being paid by Mike Tyson to plant their comments on this blog.
Unless we have evidence that they have stolen from the rakyat, we should not call UMNO thieves. Unless we have evidence that they have lied to the rakyat, we should not call them liars. Unless we have evidence that have cheated the rakyat, we should not call them cheats.
Do we have the evidence of their lying, cheating, and stealing ? Of course we have, and we are just waiting for them to take us to a court of law so that we can put UMNO in the best possible light..
August 9th, 2008 at 15: 30.10
melurian, have you been taking English lessons from the same tutor as Mike Tyson ?
August 9th, 2008 at 15: 32.24
Don’t tell me the Bar Council is now playing the role of a religious counsellor.
August 9th, 2008 at 15: 33.55
The forum among other can be used to find solutions on how to deal with a situation when the ‘religion status’ of a dead person could not be clearly determined or even the religion status of a living person due to marriage or parent conversion to another religion….
August 9th, 2008 at 15: 36.07
The forum will not do justice to the non-muslims or Islam, or anything relating to freedom of religion, it was prejudice in nature.
August 9th, 2008 at 15: 37.28
only those who are weak and guilty are afraid of challenge.
August 9th, 2008 at 15: 58.11
First world infrastructure, Third world mentality. That sums it up.
And no, we ain’t prepared for such forum yet. That’s because the opportunity to do so was forfeited long ago …
This latest round, BN wins. Seems PR is breaking up. We have ppl from PKR and PAS opposing and demonstrating against this Bra Council forum.
PR has less than 5 years to prove its salt. Don’t deceive ourselves that the voters gave their votes to the opposition in favour of multiracialism on March 8. Even Jeff Ooi conducted a poll and a good number of respondents polled said that their votes were ‘against BN out of anger’.
Hasn’t anybody learnt anything yet? Anger decides where the votes go. So do bread and butter issues.
August 9th, 2008 at 16: 04.06
Better stop discussing this sensitive issue as it may later affect the by-election at Permatang Pauh.We have to very careful now. Do not fall into BN trap.
August 9th, 2008 at 16: 08.46
Having opposing views and differences in a political coalition are signs of healthy democracy, or we rather have the kind of slave and master coalition in BN?
Worst case scenario, PAS will become independent of any coalition.
August 9th, 2008 at 16: 19.44
I just got this nagging feeling that Malaysians have not learnt anything from history….
Lately, there have been all the talks of Malaysia being a Police State. Then the joint exercise between the police and army. Then the massive road blocks …..
This could be the trigger needed by UMNO ….
As one rejoices in the ‘victory’ over Anwar’s sodomy 2, the undoing may just have appeared …
August 9th, 2008 at 16: 22.54
# dawsheng Says:
Today at 15: 04.17 (1 hour ago)
The Muslims did not force the non-muslims to convert to Islam.
===========
Yes, however, the spouse and children of the convert falls into a legal mess. That’s what the forum trying to resolve. Not about how one converts, or should one convert, etc.
August 9th, 2008 at 16: 26.26
The conclusion is Malay & muslim is not ready to talk open this issue yet….
August 9th, 2008 at 16: 26.39
sir,i agree with you.
what a disgrace to malaysia that
we cant discuss matter of utmost importance in public.
50 years of independence and this is where we are!
religion is beautiful, it was never meant to separate us.
as an avid believer of pluralism, i believe that all
religion brings us closer to god and goodness.
when will our nation ever understand?!
August 9th, 2008 at 16: 29.32
//The police yielding to pressure to disrupt the half-day Bar Council forum on conversion to Islam at 10 am in Kuala Lumpur today is a most adverse reflection on law and order// - YB Kit.
The expression “yielding to pressure” seems warranted considering:-
· police did not engage the crowd ;
· when Dang Wangi police chief “was asked why he did not disperse the crowd in view of the security threats”, he said “if we were to take action, nobody will be safe here,” he said ostensibly for reasons that the initially passive crowd had turned more aggressive as the demonstration wore on.
Source : Malaysiakini report under title “300 protest Bar’s ‘conversion’ forum” filed by
Andrew Ong | Aug 9, 08 9:41am
It is noteworthy that the protesters were estimated to be only around 300 compared to at least 5000 in the Hindraf’s demonstrations.
Well Hindraf’s demonstrators were in Mahatma Gandhi’s civil disobedience style largely orderly and not aggressive : yet they were met by water cannons.
The much smaller crowd of 300 protesting against the Bar Council forum were supposedly initially passive turning more aggressive - same Malaysiakini’s report.
However according to News Flash, 2 threads ago, “police accompanied a few of the protestors into the Bar Council forum to observe proceedings, five minutes before the forum was to have abrupt end at 10 am” on police’s advice.
What’s the moral of story then?
When demonstrating, make sure you are not passive but aggresive because when you’re passive, you will, like Hindraf’s demonstrators, be shot with water cannons but if you are aggresive like the 300, you will be rewarded by having the objective of your demonstration – to stop the forum – attained with authorities’ asistance all in the name of public security and safety.
Malaysia Boleh!
August 9th, 2008 at 16: 32.12
Quote dawsheng & carboncopy:
The Muslims did not force the non-muslims to convert to Islam.
===========
Yes, however, the spouse and children of the convert falls into a legal mess. That’s what the forum trying to resolve. Not about how one converts, or should one convert, etc.
==========================
True, true, true. or is it correct, correct, correct.
nobody forces nobody to convert and at the same time one must act responsibly and know what he is getting himself into before he converts. worse, being irresponsible affects the children and/or others.
The message is that to ‘Think twice before you leap’ in this issue.
IMHO, religion divides and Malaysia is a fine example! So, to each, let’s keep religion private.
August 9th, 2008 at 16: 34.18
YB,
Your comment on the Keadilan YB from Kulim, Zulkifli Nordin on his protest against the Bar Council Forum is appreciated.
http://zul4kulim.blogspot.com/2008/08/jom-turun.html
August 9th, 2008 at 16: 34.53
no discussion, no improvement, dead end.
August 9th, 2008 at 16: 38.20
gundam says:
no discussion, no improvement, dead end.
=======
not necessarily so. we discuss what builds BUT try to avoid what destroys. It is quite clear today that we are not ready nor prepared for it yet.
August 9th, 2008 at 16: 41.21
Agreed, as Freddy said, one “must act responsibly and know what he is getting himself into before he converts” so everyone should bear the consequences of his own action but if one’s action adversely and unfairly affect a significant other who is without fault. Like for example a husband initially married on promise of monogamy under civil law to a wife relying on that promise, and wife marries on the premise of secular law inclining to favour a woman with custody of children if marriage breaks down and to circumvent these arrangements entered into the husband converts to enable to take more than one wife and to take the children away to be brought up as Muslims : is that fair to the other (wife) who has not converted? When she seks redress, he is told that article 121(A) provides that Sharia will aply, civil law takes back seat, and husband will have his way contrary to all earlier solemn arrangements he has entered into to build around a family life with the wife. Is the process of law fair to wife?
August 9th, 2008 at 16: 42.53
Eror :”…When she seeks redress, she is told…”
August 9th, 2008 at 16: 43.17
I am saddened by the fact that the leader of the protest group is a PKR Assembly man with PAS youths.
August 9th, 2008 at 16: 47.10
grace Says:
I am saddened by the fact that the leader of the protest group is a PKR Assembly man with PAS youths.
========
Be optimistic, grace. i’m actually glad that the leader of the protest group was PKR rep with PAS youths. Imagine, just imagine ….
the protest group was a UMNO thug …..
August 9th, 2008 at 16: 52.41
dear freddy,
if we dun start a discussion at all in the first place, how do we know wat ‘builds’ and wat is not?
August 9th, 2008 at 16: 54.52
I am not denying anyone of their rights but let us get the priority right and clean up the judiciary first, if the judiciary is in a mess, everyone is in legal mess.
August 9th, 2008 at 16: 59.36
It is obvious that certain issues just cannot be discussed in this country. Period.
August 9th, 2008 at 17: 00.50
In order to bring the people together to promote harmony & unity, the Federal government should have organized such forums years ago.
But this is hardly a good time for Bar Council to have one. Having said this, this is also not a good time for Penang CM to have any debate with Ex CM. I think there are more important priorities at hand.
August 9th, 2008 at 17: 01.44
From Racism to Satanism
1. If anyone thinks as a Malaysian at heart you will never support any of the current political parties who speaks only about championing or protecting their own race and religious interests. Whether it comes from UMNO, PAS, MCA, MIC, PKR, Gerakan, Hindraf, PBS, DAP, PPP or whatever new name it’s called racism and whoever supports that party is called a racist. It is no different from apartheid. It dirties and poison your soul.
2. Those who are racists but speak with a fork tongue (Jeyklls), hiding it behind other causes like religion, meritocracy, education, poverty etc are even worse than clear cut racists and can only fit into the category of satans.
3. Malaysian racists and the MSN have corrupted the following words which meant differently in other countries ex. nationalism, patriotism, royalists, freedom, liberty, corruption, democracy etc.
4. Power, Greed and Selfishness rule in Malaysia and now we include Racism and Satanism.
More facts at http://patek1472.wordpress.com
August 9th, 2008 at 17: 01.52
gundam Says:
dear freddy,
if we dun start a discussion at all in the first place, how do we know wat ‘builds’ and wat is not?
===========
clearly today, the bra council forum is disastrous and hints of coming violence. ambiga’s old house that was sold to sharizat was ‘bombed’ and the cause was suspectedly linked to this forum. feel the heat around and you may perhaps realise that it’s hotter than summer and closer to hell.
dawsheng is correct, correct, correct to propose setting priority right and clean up the judiciary first. yes, dawsheng’s proposal is one that will build.
btw, oil at US115 per barrel and works out to be around RM2.69 a litre market price inclusive of delivery. Mana subsidi kerajaan? Now, we the consumer subsidises the BN government!!
August 9th, 2008 at 17: 13.09
dear freddy,
u should view it as a ‘positive’ feedback, at least someone is dared to speak up.
there mst always be a ‘pioneer’ to start a revolution.
do not fear against oppression and unjust. ready to sacrifice ourselves if we r serious abt winning the war with the imbeciles and evils.
dun forget tat LKS’ dog was poisoned too. shall he withdraw from the struggle then?
August 9th, 2008 at 17: 14.35
Seriously do people really think the country will be any better under PR that comprises PKR, DAP, and PAS? How many Zulkifli Noordins (PKR) are out there?
August 9th, 2008 at 17: 17.15
“I am not denying anyone of their rights but let us get the priority right and clean up the judiciary first, if the judiciary is in a mess, everyone is in legal mess.”
dear dawsheng,
tis forum actually serves as the cleaning up of judiciary in process.
August 9th, 2008 at 17: 23.12
There is great differences between one being a pioneer to start a revolution and one being completely unaware of the nature of subject and its implications one try to revolutionize, moreover when one is lawyer and the leader of the Bar Council. This is not a popularity contest for god sake, even it is, do the right thing, not stupid things! The debate should be in court, not in a public forum, where justice is concern, the showdown is between the Bar Council and the judiciary, and not the muslims and non-muslims.
August 9th, 2008 at 17: 24.18
gundam,
what good is a hero if he is dead? isn’t this a general saying?
the ‘revolution’ in Malaysia is already taking shape but it is not a bloody revolution. we are peace loving man!
we need peaceful means. that’s because the opponent is a MASTER in using force and brutality. one voice, that’s it.
we have the power of the vote!
to boh-liao,
what we need is the existence of a two-party system. if we continue to think negatively that PR will not be better than BN because of Zulkifli Noordins, we will never be able to move forward.
coming to such a stage where the opposition is at its best opportunity to create such a scene, we must back it no matter how. we need to end BN hegemony.
either we make 2020 successful or allow 2020 to be a BANKRUPT MALAYSIA!
Hoi BN …. TURUNKAN HARGA MINYAK HARI INI JUGA!!!!
Oil at US115 per barrel equals market price/pump price of RM2.69 per liter!!!
August 9th, 2008 at 17: 33.27
dear freddy,
it’s nt abt heroism, it’s abt upholding the truth and freedom.
good leaders are meant to serve and ready to be sacrificed for the truth. tat’s their destiny.
dear dawsheng,
im nt sure abt ambiga’s mentality bt i do believe tis kind of ‘debate’ will nv take place in a court.
August 9th, 2008 at 17: 40.33
gundam,
truth and freedom must come responsibly.
can one actually handle the truth? at the same time, one must stay focus in his objectives. what’s the main objective here in its priority list? What’s PR for? Let’s not miss the forest for the trees.
Hari ini membentuk kerajaan, esok turun harga minyak 70sen!!!
Let’s vote for him who can bring down petrol to RM2.00 a litre while the current market pump price is at RM2.69.
August 9th, 2008 at 17: 45.08
PKR should haul up Zulkifli and ask him to apologise for the demo at the Bar Council. To move forward PKR must distanced itself from UMNO who only uses Religion to split us Malaysian, If he didn’t apologised strong disciplinary action must be taken. Further more Zul should join in the discussionas he is a lawyer himself. There’s no difference in him and SIL..
August 9th, 2008 at 17: 47.27
At long last the true face of several PKR MPs have been revealed. And I am speaking of none other than PKR MP for Kulim Bandar Baharu - Zulkifli Noordin. It seemed such a long time ago when I sent messages back to Kedah asking people to support Zulkifli against the UMNO ‘burn down Chinese Hall’ racist (forgot his name). Well this time I know better, come next general election I know EXACTLY what message to send back to Kedah! The UMNO fellar has already been punished, but the PKR fellar has not yet been punished.
And it has emerged that dear Zul is a member of the conservative Muslim Lawyers group PEMBELA, if you would remember was also one of the signatories of a controversial memorandum calling for supremacy just before the elections. Coincidentally, another of Anwar’s lawyers is an active member of PEMBELA - Zainur Zakaria, whom also labeled HINDRAF as terrorists and traitors. Wonder what Zul thinks of PEMBELA’s stand, seeing that he benefit from HINDRAF’s support in Kedah?
According to Malaysiakini, Zul joined the UMNO agitators on calling the mob to storm the Bar Council, in his own words “If you don’t hear from us at 10am, you should all storm the building”. Unlike PAS which called for calm and asked the mob to sit in front of the road till the forum is ended, no calls of REMPUH from PAS, but oh yes REMPUH from UMNO boys and ex-UMNO boys in PKR.
And if you bothered to visit Zulkifli’s blog and read his posting titled ‘Islam di hina’, one would not have been surprised if the blog was written by an UMNO agitator. In his own words:
“Saya melihat akhir-akhir pihak-pihak bukan Islam bertambah biadap didalam tindak-tanduk mereka dalam hal berkaitan Islam & bangsa Melayu.” (Spoken like a true blue UMNO boy)
“Saya juga meminta para peguam Muslim supaya kita segera membuka mata mempertahankan Islam. Mungkin sudah tiba masanya kita peguam Islam berusaha mengambil alih Majlis Peguam.” (Watch out for the conservative Muslim lawyers takeover of the Bar Council soon - god forbid! Bar Coucil you have been warned!)
“Saya juga memberi amaran kepada Majlis Peguam khasnya dan golongan bukan Islam umumnya supaya jangan mencabar hak umat Islam. Kesabaran umat Islam ada batasnya. Kamu mungkin melihat umat Islam di Malaysia ini kelihatannya lemah. Mungkin kamu sedang mengambil kesempatan melihat kedudukan umat Islam yang kelihatannya lemah akibat percakaran politik sesama kami.” (So bang Zul what is the solution, gabung with UMNO ya?)
“Tetapi ingatlah disana ada umat Islam yang sedang memerhati gelagat kamu. Kami tidak teragak-agak mengambil tindakan tegas terhadap kamu sekiranya kamu terus-menerus dengan sikap provokatif kamu.” (Threats by our wonderful PKR MP - another Ezam in the making this Zul).
And there you have it. Remember 5 years later, what each and everyone should do. It’s all about sending a message (through democratic means), a means that seems lost on Zulkifli Noordin, 1 term PKR MP for Bandar Baharu Kulim!
August 9th, 2008 at 17: 55.00
dear freddy,
the dialogue took place in a controlled and constructive manner, by holding it in a closed setting and by requiring participants to register for the event.
now someone is getting death threat. who’s irresponsible here?
August 9th, 2008 at 18: 06.34
gundam,
we are all frustrated. but being frustrated doesn’t mean we must lose our cool. we need to work things out in a civilised way in an uncivilised society. we need not be irresponsible just because the other party is irresponsible. though we want to appreciate everything good in an idealistic way, we should not be stirred into becoming the bullies and the hooligans.
It is not the way that makes a man BUT it is man that makes the way!
August 9th, 2008 at 18: 26.02
perhaps PKR’s zulkifli was doing just what his boss wanted him to do. have you guys missed out or forgotten that anwar ibrahim himself agreed with najib that the forum shouldn’t be held? still want him as PM? he’s not a PM for all races!
August 9th, 2008 at 18: 28.06
dear freddy,
my point is, we didnt lose our cool. we did everything according to the law while someone else did nt.
yes, we need someone to show us the way, hence the ‘pioneer’ and ‘forerunner’ mst be ready to sacrifice themselves for the right cause.
sacrifice doesnt mean violence.
August 9th, 2008 at 18: 33.21
My earlier comment was deleted ..We blame the MAIN STREAM MEDIA for being bias.ON that later…
As long as MIC MCA PPP and KERAKAN are still in BN.More body snatching will occur,More people will use the shariah courts to their advantage.
This forum is not about MUSLIM or MALAY rights but the rights of non MUSLIM who are forced to attend SHARIAH COURTS.
August 9th, 2008 at 18: 36.33
You know its sad that we are not brave enuff to handle such mature topic. Its only obvious that they (Malays) are afraid to handle the matter at hand.
Sorry but the day they can handle this situation (matters of islam/conversion) then they would be able to see the world in a different ‘perspective’.
Only in malaysia you are forced to convert when you marry a muslim. In other countries…not so.
SAD SAD SAD SAD
August 9th, 2008 at 19: 00.56
what the hell is Anwar going to do about his PKR buddy taking part in the forum ?
Anwar can we really trust you want a fair Malaysia for all races ? Tak action against this goon
August 9th, 2008 at 19: 02.16
PKR, DAP & PAS,
Before any of you make a go it alone move, make sure you think trice because you may be hurting PR (yourselves) in the end. If you want to make a protest, just send your PR coalition pressman.
As it is, PAS may have scored a win in the battle over the Bar Council but you may well have lost the war to UMNO. You have just succeeded in making non muslims VERY AFRAID to vote for you (PR). In one word - SILLY!
August 9th, 2008 at 19: 12.17
the PKR guy could be a BN…imposter who knows!!
In this country anything is possible!
August 9th, 2008 at 19: 18.39
It’s UMNO’s plot, If PKR or Pas doesn’t show up UMNO will tell the Malays that both parties are selling out to the non-Malays.
Ambiga, your timing for this forum is questionable with all the political mess flying around in the country esp. the impending P.Pauh by-election.
I wonder what UMNOputras have offered you for them to spin Ketuanan Melayu news in the MSM & TVs
Job well done UMNO should award you a Tan Sri’s title or an air ticket to Switzeland!!
BAR Council, thank you for betraying the Rakyat.
August 9th, 2008 at 19: 19.31
imposter or not, Anwar better get to the root of the issue cos it is going to cost him non malay support.
that PKR guy made lot of racist statements and many want him disiplined. And DAP better stand up and voice ur concern, dont be like a lame duck MCA or MIC
August 9th, 2008 at 19: 21.31
Gundam,
it doesn’t mean we’re weak if we turn the other cheeks. i may not be a christian but i think there’s something in this holy book that said if someone slaps you, turn the other cheek for him to slap or something like that.
what i’ve been emphasising today is the crack within PR that is showing by the day. the seeds of discord has been sown and it may eventually break up PR and hence the end to the dream of any reality of a fruition of a two-party system.
a dead man doesn’t tell a lie, they say. from my viewpoint, when bodowi publicly announced that there were secret talks with PAS, i gathered my opinion that it was a concerted effort to sow such seeds of distrust. while some called it a double-edged sword in this revelation, i wonder why the components in BN such as MCA, MIC, gerakan and the rest are keeping cool. they know that it was a failed attempt to BUY over PAS.
in due time, we shall unearth the truths as to the demonstrations today. already there are suggestions that this pkr’s bugger could be ….. well … (you use your own words to complete my sentence)
we can champion the ‘pioneer’ and the ‘forerunner’. we can cheer them on. but there are times when we need to pause or to take a step back in order to keep going.
i still believe that the opportunity still exists for the emergence of a two-party system so that the rakyat can move forward together as one.
hence, for the sake of Malaysian Unity, I will readily support PR in its KETUANAN RAKYAT rather than the racist BN’s KETUANAN MELAYU.
August 9th, 2008 at 19: 31.32
what the fuss? It is just a discussion to close the gap between 2 laws. What’s wrong to close the gap so that there is no dispute later when comes to certain matter? This is call system improvement. After the discussion, then propose the solution for review. If there is a dispute, then work out together lah. What’s fuss? When i see today’s situation, it links my thought back to those ancient day. Still remember one philosopher was punished fire burning because he claimed that there was nothing after the sky( people/authority beleive there was a god’s place), and ironic that it has been proven that today, it is just the cosmic after the sky. Our people mentality is a problem when come to religious. Vision 2020? too far for reaching…
August 9th, 2008 at 19: 36.28
not our people Blue.kinetic, only a section of our people.
they behave like their civilisation is only 1400 years old
August 9th, 2008 at 19: 40.11
drmaharajahrk, thanks for the correction. You are right, a section of 1400 yrs old civilization people.
August 9th, 2008 at 19: 53.30
they cant have a dialogue/discourse like true gentlemen, no points to counter the points raised by Subashini/ Shamala/Moorthy cases.
they can only shout “babi, babi, babi, balik china, pengkhianat ” and the participants…….really shows how far they have come the past 1400 years
August 9th, 2008 at 19: 56.51
“Malaysia has failed a major test in nation-building to demonstrate that we are shaping up to be a more civil society where sensitive issues of inter-faith problems can be discussed in a mature and responsible manner to promote national unity and religious harmony in the country.”
unfortunately we have a long way to go, public maturity has not been parrallel with our infrastructure development, but nevertheless it is a hopeful achievement down the line especially in the younger generations who have been educated abroad, their mindset is a bit more liberal but for those bred within the nation, their thinking is very restricted and thus the backlash and exagerrated response.
But one thing all malaysians should remember is to respect all race and religion and even islam teaches the fundamentals to live in peace with the rest, so the anger, profanity and so forth was uncalled for.
August 9th, 2008 at 20: 06.41
Malaysia could have been superior in the region, if only we had inculcated meritocracy and disregarded any particular race supremacy. We could have been the forerunners in many aspects such as education, technology etc. The religious aspects should also be strengthened within their respective groups to promote good code of conduct in line with a learned and internationally recognised front which will enable us to mingle and interact amongst other nationals and be considered a dynamic nation to be reckoned with.
August 9th, 2008 at 20: 13.28
After seeing tonite TV3 news UMNO have already swing at 2,000 Malay votes in their favour.
Thanks to Ambiga & Bar Council!
August 9th, 2008 at 20: 15.39
Independent for 50 years, but still act like barbarians. When can the Malays start to have fully-developed mind?
I’ve chosen to discontinue my friendship with Zulkifli Nordin in Facebook. I dont like making friend with fanatics.
August 9th, 2008 at 20: 34.35
After what i saw on the news today…It just been proven again ISLAM is a good religion .praticed by gangsters which made ISLAM into a violent religion.
August 9th, 2008 at 20: 50.48
If we look at history, the collapse of a great kingdom is because of its people.
Similarly the collapse of any religion is also because of its people.
People makes history and not vice versa.
August 9th, 2008 at 20: 53.44
Beware! ..more to come, ISA, operasi lalang?
Incident may be linked to Bar Council forum
KUALA LUMPUR, Aug 9 — Two molotov cocktail bottles were thrown into the compound of Wanita Umno vice-chief Datuk Seri Shahrizat Abdul Jalil’s residence at Jalan Setia Kasih in Bukit Damansara here, early today.
One of the petrol bombs which exploded contained a note, said Brickfields police chief ACP Wan Ahmad Bhari Wan Abdul Khalid.
A Shahrizat family member said Bar Council Malaysia chairman Datuk S. Ambiga stayed at the house before it was bought by Shahrizat three years ago.
“Maybe the suspects thought Ambiga still lives in the house,” he said, linking the attack to a protest against a forum pertaining to conversion to Islam held by the Bar Council today.
Wan Ahmad Bhari said a security guard manning the house saw two men on a motorcycle throwing objects into the compound before he heard a small explosion at about 3am.
“The guard discovered broken pieces of glass and a note and a police report on the incident was lodged at 7.10am. The petrol bombs landed under the porch,” he said.
Shahrizat and her family members were asleep when the incident happened
Wan Ahmad Bhari said police found broken pieces of glass and a burnt mark at the scene but had yet to make any arrest and ascertain the motive of the attack.
In Butterworth, Shahrizat said she was shocked when she learned about the incident this morning before leaving for Penang.
“I was told it has something to do with the forum. Police are investigating the incident. We must deplore any form of violence,” she told reporters after meeting Permatang Pauh Umno election machinery campaigners here today. — Bernama
August 9th, 2008 at 20: 58.04
The incident has again affirmed the public perception that there’s a set of laws for the general public and another set for the UMNOputras[though in this case PAS was also involved]
So, those of us who hoped for a more civil and democractic society will see once again the negation of its formation.
For, the police another nail to their image of professionalism and impartiality in upholding the law.
August 9th, 2008 at 21: 20.08
I believe PKR and PAS owes Malaysian minorities a clear explanation as to what were their actual thoughts in supporting a protest and trespassing into the Bar Council building.
They owe it to minority Malaysians who have voted for them overwhelmingly on March 8 in part because of religious conversion issues to come clean and express their clear stand on the issue so that minority Malaysians can reassess their relationship with PKR and PAS.
The conduct of people like Zukifli Noordin should especially be examined because it is immensely doubtful if Malaysia could move forward with its reformation agenda under Pakatan if personalities like him insist that certain topics cannot be discussed even behind closed doors, because one sensitivity will lead to another and we are back to square one.
The Bar Council may have been cowed, but I have more respect for Ambiga than any other politicians in Malaysia today.
August 9th, 2008 at 21: 29.39
It is really painful to admit of what happen this morning at Bar council. It’s a disgrace of my races and religion.But to say it’s 100% mistake by my races, I don’t think so. If i were a Bar Council, I would probably just make close discussion between non-muslim and address any highlights that could be brought forward into inter religion discussion. For me, Racism is term that created by those *** so called intellectual from the west to actually simulate the hate of Jewish as presence in World War II. This jewish create that kind of term and eventually spread globally.Simply meaning, if I had a problem with Ah Seng, the Satan will voice those whisper that said “because he is Chinese”. But why when I had a problem with Ahmad, the Satan didn’t said to me ” because he is Malay”. This is because Ahmad is the same race with me.So the Satan will tell me let say “because he is jealous with you”. Eventually, when we have a problem among races, the first thing comes would be a racism hatred and because why? Because we are all had been set-minded with the **** so called intellectual genius from the west that created those racism or xenophobia terms.It’ all being plant in our head without our noticed years by years. So I hope those Bar Council and all the big boys from political parties could think about what I wrote here.Islam is a peace religion. It’s always does. The only problem is only Prophet Muhammad can do that and only few of them nowadays who actually followed the complete teaching as He taught that includes the big boys in BN, PKR and even the jubah+ketayap+serban guys from PAS. I don’t want to comment much about the riot of my races or the disobedient of Bar Council to cancel the forum. Everyone at the top have their own agenda or intention.
P.s: I wouldn’t worry much about any conflict between Islam, it’s being warned that it will and must happen and it’s a destiny that has been written in Al-Quran. But what I do worry much is our multi-racial peace that seems to torn apart by those **** so called intellectual that created many virus such like capitalist or anything else that actually blindfolded us for a centuries. Lastly, send my universal middle finger to those “penjajah mat salleh” who actually responsible to spread their idelogy of separating Malays,Chinese and Indians.(Please read our Sejarah textbook at school, most of us should know or maybe we forget?).
August 9th, 2008 at 21: 34.16
Jeffrey, besides being aggressive or passive, it’s about colors too. The perfect color is one between yellow and black, then u’d have no problem no matter what happens.
August 9th, 2008 at 21: 34.30
The plan demonstration has an advantage. The UMNOputras top guns have already given their “blessing” by way of comments. So they can be aggressive because the police are also aware of the ’support’ of the unseen hand. So what they did was to the wishes of the UMNOputras! The so party that will be irrelevant come Sept 16. But there seems to be some involvement of PK & PAS members.???
August 9th, 2008 at 21: 38.52
agree truly with hiro,, i think i respect ambiga more than the others now..i dont think she’s an UMNO goon..she was just exercising her rights to freedom of speech. shame on fanatics like zulkifli. How can he even become a MP if he is so immature? and last but not least, PKR and PAS somewhat has made the non muslims fools, by just using us, and then turning their backs on us..first it was tht ketuanan melayu, then malay unity talk(if such talk can be held, then why not the bar council forum?) ..double standards practised..when it was hindraf, they shot water cannons, when its the malays, they said it was a peaceful gathering only!
August 9th, 2008 at 21: 43.38
YB
FRU…… why’s the tear gas, the water cannons, batons shields + the Isa for good measures. Remember the Hindraf march + the Cheras Mahkota episode?
In Malaysia we practice Racial + Religious tolerance. Ya, we tolerate them.
Come on you moderate Muslims, come out + defend your faith. Don’t let a few who have narrow mindset smear your good name.
August 9th, 2008 at 21: 44.50
YB ,you failed to mention that PAS and Keadilan members were among the culprits that disrupted the forum. We thought the PR people are different from the umnos. Don’t let us entertain any second thoughts. Anuar may lose some votes because of this.
August 9th, 2008 at 21: 49.21
“Be optimistic, grace. i’m actually glad that the leader of the protest group was PKR rep with PAS youths. Imagine, just imagine ….
the protest group was a UMNO thug …..”
What difference does it make? No rationality at all.
August 9th, 2008 at 21: 49.27
Funny. All the Muslims I know who have converted and married NON-Muslims have done so because they feel the religion is one of non tolerance.
As a sideline observer, I notice a few things. The tenets of Islam are far more hospitable and tolerant compared to the fare they dish out here. Yes, I know they are less vehement than some of the their other Muslim counterparts…. the MILF ( no pun intended) immediately comes to mind.
I am reminded that oppressed people, like oppressed religions seem to thrive on persecution. NOTHING else unites them more. Just look at what Hindraf has achieved for everyone.
I think the country is torching the bedroom to spite the bedbugs. Anyone saw the FD rumours yet? See http://www.tranungkite.net/v7/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=10726
I for one am sad that the SPINELESS police have the gall to say that if they do not accede to the mob’s intents there will be trouble.
How can that be? Is that why our police are always so slow to come to our aid when danger is afoot? Why do they always come after the dust has settled? Why do I not remember the police ever recovering cash? WHy only drugs, bullets, parangs and drugs?
sigh. On second thought. .. you can delete drugs from that list.
August 9th, 2008 at 21: 52.51
It was okay for those who wanted to express their views to demonstrate but it was not okay for the Police to advise/pressurise the Bar Council to stop the lawful discussion and an to put an early end to the legitimate Bar Council forum activity.
By doing that the Police today showed further spinelessness and their glaring unprofessionalism and unfitness in the law enforcement role.
And those demonstrators today kicked democracy in the teeth and also defiled the great and merciful teachings of Islam. If I were to have blasphemously put on God’s shoes today I may have found that God had long ago washed His graceful hands of the entire stupid human race. And if at all I even tried to look at today from the visionary point of view of a great and kind Prophet, I would I think in all likelihood feel great disappointment and sorrow at some of those today who professed to be “Muslims” and who were supposedly representing Islam.
And to that particular green-collared card-carrying member who said he was from UMNO and that he represented “Islam” - please Sir, whoever you are, do you mind if I throw up at your stupidity and hypocrisy? It is people like you that denigrate Islam.
As to the Bar Council, their unquestioning (and not unsurprising)capitulation on a point of principle and a fundamental constitutional right to the spineless Police’s wrong and unprofessional easy-way-out advice is further glaring evidence of the general spinelessness and lack of critical thinking regularly exhibited ad nauseam by all manner of so-called Malaysian “professionals” who ought to know better and which sorry accumulated spinelessness has over the years, led to Malaysia being brought down to her democratic knees!
All in Malaysia lost today. If any one thinks that any “problem” anywhere in the home, country, world or universe can be solved in any way other than through frank, open, brave and respectful discussion between rational, matured human beings, I suggest that you are either a cretin or someone operating under a hidden agenda of not really wanting to solve that “problem”.
“Imagine Power To The People” John Lennon.
August 9th, 2008 at 21: 56.52
Gundam,
It is funny, as I read the debate here a number of things come to my mind. Is it appeasement or cooperation? Is it subservient or being patient? Is it blind loyalty or rationality? Is it lack of principle or being practical?
August 9th, 2008 at 22: 03.31
Let me add my two cents worth. How did the Bar Council hope to get away with organising this forum and bring it to a successful conclusion? Do they think that the “Islamic fanactics ” are interested in a fair intellectual discussion to find the truth? Dato Ambiga, are you naive or what? Have you forgotten that we are a first world ( maybe ) in infra-structure but our mindset is still very, very much third world, and there are many in power, who wish us to remain so ( it is easier to rule wa!). Well at least you learned that today. We now know that not only do we have to change the gomen, but also the mindset of our people.
August 9th, 2008 at 22: 12.29
Saya kurang faham dengan sikap2 anda semua.
Kami orang2 Islam tidak pernah mempersoalkan agama2 yang kamu anuti..kami menghormati pendirian kamu..kami menghormati agama kamu…APA HAK KAMU ORANG2 BUKAN ISLAM UNTUK MEMPERSOALKAN AGAMA ISLAM YANG AMAT KAMI CINTAI INI ???Tolong berlaku adil dalam hal ini..wahai NON muslim semua…
Apa yg ingin kamu bincangkan adalah mengenai AGAMA KAMI …Kami tidak pernah mempertikaikan agama kamu dalam segala hal…walau pun ada perkara2 dalam agama kamu sudah terlampau tahyul…kerana agama kami tidak mengajar tentang mencampuri hal yang bukan hak kami untuk berbincang…
Tindakan kamu semua ini amat biadap dan tidak dapat diterima langsung…
Kalau kamu ingin berbincang tentang sesuatu perkara yang kamu tidak ketahui sepatutnya kamu berbincang dengan orang yang tahu..Apa yang kamu tahu mengenai ISLAM hanyalah luaran sahaja.Sepatutnya kamu berbincang dengan ulama2 Islam bukan berbincang sesama kamu yang tidak tahu mengenai Islam.
Jika begini lah sikap2 kamu terhadap Islam dan melihat kepada apa yang kamu lakukan kepada PAS di Pulau Pinang…PASTI pilihanraya akan datang KAMI PEMUDA2 ISLAM TIDAK AKAN MEMANGKAH KAMU LAGI!
August 9th, 2008 at 22: 28.56
Hoi BN …. TURUNKAN HARGA MINYAK HARI INI JUGA!!!!
Oil at US115 per barrel equals market price/pump price of RM2.69 per liter!!! - Freddy
I have this strange feeling that those UMNO BN goons will reduce the oil price on Aug 25 - at the 11th hour before the PP by-election just to make the people happy with them. And after that, probably the following month, they will increase the price again. Posssible?? No??
August 9th, 2008 at 22: 29.15
For protesters,
Do you think God needs your protection?
Do you think God can be challenged?
Do you think you fully understand God?
If yes, do you think you are on par with God?
If no, why do you act and say on behalf of God?
Either way you are challenging God yourself.
You are not here to judge one another on behalf of God.
At the moment you think you are right to do so, you are wrong.
Let God judge. Not you!
August 9th, 2008 at 22: 29.43
Friends why wasting time discussing about the FORUM: in Malaysia APPA APPA PUM BOLEH as long as you favour the government!
August 9th, 2008 at 22: 29.55
I see this topic of minor importance.
Those who want to convert should be ready to face the consequences, including their children, dogs and cats.
Or they can lari like Bala to outside boleh, where the laws no longer reach them.
Perhaps this is more a problem with the Indian communities.
Many Ibans and Kadazans are Christians, should we help them to convert back to their original belief?
Many Chinese converted to Christianity and Buddism, should we also help them to convert back to Taoism (original Chinese belief)?
August 9th, 2008 at 22: 30.23
“The police yielding to pressure ”
————————————————————-
It is rather surprising, I thought the mata-mata were busy “protecting” Saifool’s anus. It all depends on where the pressure is coming from. If it is from the rakyat (the people who actually foot the bill for their salaries) then you can wait till hell freezes over. But if it from the corrupt warlords then they’ll spring in to action. Just look at the Bersih and Hindraf protests. If that wasn’t pressure from the rakyat then what is?
August 9th, 2008 at 22: 31.59
“…..Dr Mehrun Siraj, an outspoken law lecturer at the International Islamic University and a former member of the Human Rights Commission of Malaysia (Suhakam).” - Malaysian Insider.
Would this person be willing to speak to her faculty and University to allow this intellectual forum be held there?
Or maybe at UM’s Law Faculty? Will / dare Rafiah allow this?
And ask some VIP personality (not neccessary from the government) to officiate ?
And what has happened to that “civilisational religion” thing especially about the pursuit of knowledge? Is it still alive and kicking?
August 9th, 2008 at 22: 39.06
Uncle Lim, this incident signal the beginning of the end for PR as this has open the eyes of the people to your partner.
August 9th, 2008 at 22: 40.29
It is a very sad state that mobs ruled the streets of KL today exhibiting lots of hatred, anger and pronounced their religious arrogance. Such great hypocrisy from these people contradicting themselves. The best method to handle this situation is to avoid this topic at all costs till these particular groups develop their mindsets, that would only be possible through their next generation offsprings who’ll hopefully be exposed to a less retricted society in critical thinking.
August 9th, 2008 at 23: 08.02
Assuredly, I will not vote for PR in the next election!!!
August 9th, 2008 at 23: 14.16
I tried very hard to refrain from writing any comment on this issue but frustration and anger has forced me to say very little. Little becos I need to reduce the stress on me from building.
I am a muslim. So let no one have other ideas.
Frustration becos finally even after fighters of human rights and justice, got so much ground in malaysian politics, riding on Pakatan, level headed malaysians are infuriated to find we voted wrong people to fight for our rights and justice. PKR Zulkifli Nordin was educated in New Zealand, yet he has not learned anything about respecting and revering other faiths.
Frustration becos these so called muslim NGOs who were there are so ‘weak’ in their iman, there knew their limited knowledge of their own religion is unable to withstand any simple test. If they believed their religion was better, they should have participated in the forum and explain and give logic to the non muslims at least why Islam is not a religion of dispensing unjustice.
Frustration becos, by demostrating and suggesting violence, there are out to prove once again that the misconception of the non muslim world that Islam dispenses violence, is a religion of no logic and it is so weak, if they speak to anyone from other religion, they might get converted. Is Islam so velnerable?
Frustration becos Chinese Organizations asked non muslim voters to vote against the UMNO idiot who wanted to burn down Chinese Assembly Hall. It has has turned out the candidate they inadvertedly got people to support in the last elections, Zulkifli Noordin, turned out to be no smaller devil. What now chinese and Indian voters? He turned out to be a traitor. So you must be careful in voting next time. Next time when two devils stand in election, put up a donkey, we will vote it.
Frustrated becos the UMNO gangster from GPMS, you know the President is Reezal Marican, Badawi’s secretary… he uttered.. ‘you Indian and Chinese.. go t hell’ ??????????????? Are we going to tolerate this type of wicked criminals? The non muslims has to stop members of their party UMNO to be voted out of each and every political seats in Malaysia, State n National. Start with Ptg Pauh. Any non muslim worth any salt should vote out or help vote out UMNO Candidates. Maybe Malaysia would be a better place for all.
Frustrated becos Badawi Govt and their NGOs are misleading the people and creating chaos in the soceity. The participants were not challenging Islam. There were ‘educated’ muslim scholars and muslim laywers there to defend Islam or to explain the legal disparity and find a mutually acceptable way out of the predicarment. The NGO were jahils, more so those from PAS who have closed mind. These peoples attitude is a shameful for real muslims. I am sure even prophet Mohamed would be ashamed with these people attitudes. Didn’t he nogotiate with non believers at Hudaibiah? Have muslims never learnt anything?
Frustrated becos these NGOs proved to be very jahil lot. They missed the point of discussion and made a fool of themselves and my religion. It means muslims are not capable of going thorugh an intellectual discourse. It is a shame to my faith attributed to Allah to surrender and cannot afford even a simple homily in the face of other faiths. My religion cannot be so weak. We cannot be so uncivilsed, so unreasonable, so unjust. I am ashamed.
It was a public forum. If the NGO leaders had any brains, they would have taken the opportunity to dialogue and share their knowledge and experiences. Not resort to gangsterism. If Bar Council had bad faith, they could have closed door meeting among the non muslims … people from my religion cannot face test of other religions? It is a shame.
The NGO’s and their supporters are those that will go to ‘hell’. wait and see..
August 9th, 2008 at 23: 22.14
discussion should be done as close-discussion not open discussion like this morning.im oppposed to this.do you know that 95% of the participants were non-Muslims??? only 5% Muslims attended! There were NO representative from JAKIM,rep from Persatuan Peguam Islam or even Majlis Ulama.If BAR Council really wanted to discuss in a proper manner,they should gracefully invited official representative/thinkers from Muslims as well (eg Persatuan Peguam Islam).dont you think so? it was an imbalance discussion,its more towards provocation to Islam,as official religion in our beloved country.
to those people who ‘hate’ PKR assemblyman Zulkifli Nordin or Pemuda PAS Salahudin.please dont say something like goldenscreen.remember also,PR didnt win last GE only when non-Muslims voted Muslims MP,but when Muslims voted non-Muslims MP!!! its a fact my dear friends.if you want to ’send a message’ through democratic means,im glad to remind you guys.PR will collapse as well if Muslims wont vote for non-Muslims MP in the next GE.so be careful in giving opinions.freedom doesnt mean you can do or talk everything you like.
August 9th, 2008 at 23: 26.29
Very well said, Captain, I salute you!
August 9th, 2008 at 23: 31.36
PRESS STATEMENT
NATIONAL MIC YOUTH COORDINATOR
T.MOHAN
THE MIC YOUTH STRONGLY CONDEMNS THE TACTICS OF IRRESPONSIBLE GROUPS IN DISRUPTING THE BAR COUNCIL FORUM ON CONVERSION TO ISLAM IN KUALA LUMPUR TODAY.
THEIR ACTIONS IS A STEP BACKWARD TOWARDS THE UNITY AND RELIGIOUS HARMONY AMONGST THE VARIOUS RACES IN MALAYSIA ENVISIONED UNDER VISION 2020.
WE ARE DISAPPOINTED WITH THE GROUPS FOR FAILING TO ALLOW THE DISCUSSION OF THE ISSUES OF INTER-FAITH IN A MATURE AND RESPONSIBLE MANNER.
THE BAR COUNCIL HAS REITERATED THAT THE FORUM ON RELIGIOUS CONVERSION WAS NOT TO QUESTION THE PROVISIONS OF ARTICLE 121 (A)
OF THE CONSTITUTION BUT TO ADDRESS THE CONFLICTS OF LAWS FACING FAMILIES CAUGHT BETWEEN THE SEPARATE JURISDICTIONS OF CIVIL AND SYARIAH LAWS.
THE MIC YOUTH REALISE THE NECESSITY OF THE ABOVE FORUM AS IT WILL CLARIFY CONFUSION OF THE CONCERNED GROUP AND WILL BE A BASE FOR GUIDELINE FOR THOSE WHO ARE LOOKING TO CONVERT TO THEIR ORIGINAL RELIGION DUE TO THEIR PERSONAL JUDGEMENT.
WE BELIEVE OPEN DISCUSSIONS AND DIALOGUES ON THE PROBLEMS ARISING OUT OF THE SYARIAH AND CIVIL COURTS SEPARATE JURISDICTIONS AND OTHER ISSUES TO RELIGIOUS CONVERSIONS ARE IMPERATIVE TO FIND SOLUTIONS.
THERE ARE SO MANY CASES WHERE INDIVIDUALS AND FAMILIES WERE AFFECTED BECAUSE OF THE CONVERSION IN AND OUT OF ISLAM. MANY WHO HAD CONVERTED WERE ALSO IN A DILEMMA AS THEY WERE UNABLE TO REVERT TO THEIR FORMER RELIGION.
WE STRONGLY BELIEVE THESE GROUPS SHOULD HAVE USED THE FORUM TO COME AND GIVE THEIR VIEWS INSTEAD OF ACTING HIGH-HANDEDLY AND FORCING THE CANCELLATION OF THE FORUM.
WE ARE DISAPPOINTED THAT THE POLICE HAD ALSO FAILED TO TAKE ACTION AGAINST THESE GROUPS FOR STAGING DEMONSTRATIONS AND HAD INSTEAD ASKED BAR COUNCIL TO CANCEL THE FORUM.
THE MIC YOUTH IS ALSO CONCERNED WITH THE STATEMENTS MADE BY CERTAIN LEADERS WHO HAD STRONGLY OPPOSED THE FORUM AS IT HAS CAUSED RESENTMENT AMONGST THE NON MUSLIMS
THEY SEEM TO HAVE IGNORED THE FACT THAT THE BAR COUNCIL HAS ALREADY CLARIFIED THAT THE FORUM WAS TO ADDRESS THE CONFLICTS OF LAW.
THEY SHOULD HAVE COME OUT WITH THEIR PROPOSALS IN ADDRESSING THE ISSUE OF NON-MUSLIM HUSBANDS WHO ABANDON THEIR SPOUSES AND THEIR FAMILIES AND CONVERT INTO ISLAM RATHER THAN TO STOP A LEGITIMATE FORUM.
THE MIC YOUTH ALSO CALL ON HINDRAF TO PUBLICLY STATE THEIR STAND AS THE GROUP WHO OPPOSED THE FORUM WAS LED BY A PARTI KEADILAI RAKYAT MP. IS THIS WHAT HINDRAF GETS FOR SUPPORTING PKR IN THE GENERAL ELECTION?
ENDS
August 9th, 2008 at 23: 39.06
Sorry, I cannot agree with you fish-warezmasterz.
A member of an Ulama association is not an ‘ulama’. They are not authority of Islam. The Govt knew about this forum. Jakim and Persatuan Peguam Islam also knew about this forum. Why they need to be invited? It was a public forum. They should have gone to defend their religion in the public forum. By the way, even Muslim lawyers are not an authority on Islam. There was one supposed to speak from JAWI. Why he chicken out? Are these people so ill and shallow educated, they cannot defend Islam?
Or they are waiting to be paid allowance before they go there?
The reason they were more non-muslims because they are the victims and they are looking for solution, not to fight !
Nobody was provocating Islam. Islam cannot be wrong. Its the wrong beliefs attributed to Islam that is WRONG. And defending it is absolute stupidity. And defending it with violence makes it violently stupid.
August 9th, 2008 at 23: 42.56
Freddy Says:
Today at 17: 01.52 (6 hours ago)
gundam Says:
dear freddy,
if we dun start a discussion at all in the first place, how do we know wat ‘builds’ and wat is not?
===========
btw, oil at US115 per barrel and works out to be around RM2.69 a litre market price inclusive of delivery. Mana subsidi kerajaan? Now, we the consumer subsidises the BN government!!
Now we have to wait 22 days till 1 Sept for new lower price. WTF.
August 10th, 2008 at 00: 03.44
There were muslims in the forum. They were there to understand the situation, find a practicle situation and defend their religion. These are our present day heroes. They were there to defend and correct the misconceptions on Islam which is perceived to be a religion that is unjust and violent. We are potrayed as the ‘bad’ people, remember?
And when there appeared a chance to correct the misconception, these idiot protesters had to spoil the chance. By the NGO actions, muslim and islam will increasingly be ‘condemned’ . This makes them, the protesters, as the real traitors of Islam. Isn’t Islam the peaceful religion? These can’t even sit down and talk in peace, what then do they know about Islam? Which other Islam faith then are these idiots talking about?
Shame on you. Shame on Badawi. Is this your Islam hadhari?
August 10th, 2008 at 00: 19.44
where is my massage ? takut ka ? mulai hari ini saya takkan sokong DAP LAGI. SAYA AKAN TERUS ANGGAP DAP RACIST. BIAR SUSAH DAN MERANA SEDIKIT DI BAWAH UMNO DARIPADA DUDUK DI BAWAH PERINTAH ORANG YANG RACIST UMNO=DAP SAMA JA.
August 10th, 2008 at 00: 22.16
It is worthwile to go over some of the problems arising from conflict of laws (Shariah and Civil) in the context of conversion.
1. The constitution allows all Malaysian freedom of religion, but Muslims leaving their religion are in effect persecuted through requiring them to undergo compulsory re-education in circumstances where their personal safety in not guaranteed (Lina Joy is an example);
2. The non-muslim wife of a man who converts to Islam in effect loses the right to continue to educate her children in the wife’s non-muslim religion, because the convert manages to convert the child secretly to Islam (The Syamala/Subashini situation).
3. The conversion of a married person into Islam is kept a secret until it is too late for the non-converting spouse to exercise her right to question the legitimacy of the conversion of her spouse (The Murthi situation). Such secrecy also aids the converting spouse in seeking to convert children of the non-Muslim marriage (The Syamala situation);
4. The non-Muslim spouse’s remedy in the civil courts has by judicial interpretation, been abolished by Art.121(1A): that non-Muslim spouse must now submit herself to the jurisdiction of the Shariah Court which is unlikely to declare a converted, living spouse/child to be a non-Muslim;
5. Now, the injustice - I’m sure sincere Muslims themselves recognise that there is injustice as stated above - has to be discussed. The embarassment of Muslims at the present situation
should not be a reason to avoid discussion of it.
6. As to the proper forum, I am not sure how the discussion should be held, and would welcome comments from our commentators as to this.
August 10th, 2008 at 00: 27.17
I just have one comment to make. Non-muslims who intend to marry muslims must know and accept the [deleted] syariah “laws” of the country.
If you marry for love and will accept all consequences of permanent conversion, even though if the union ends up in divorce or separation, then convert.
If you cannot accept this, then think a 100 times before you make your decision to convert. It is better to sever the relationship before you make the commitment. Nobody is to blame if, knowing the consequences, you decide to convert. Blame yourself and don’t expect sympathy from the people.
August 10th, 2008 at 00: 29.13
antiracist, this is a blog so don’t expect any ‘massage’ aromatheraphy or otherwise here. If you mean ‘message’ then why don’t you repost minus all obscenities and stick to the topic. Definitely it will pass moderation.
If that fails then please check your internet connection. This is not chedet.com where censorship is strict.
August 10th, 2008 at 00: 29.15
I deplore the Bar Council’s mule headed decision to go ahead and hold this forum at this critical junction in our nations political development. There is so many other issues that need to be tackled, deaths in police custody, conditions in our prison condition, ISA, OSA, standards of legal education in local uni’s. I’m inclined to agree with Zulkipli Noordins call for the bar council to have a more representative management committee, i still cant believe the opportunity that Ambiga lost when they hosted the PM earlier, where instead of bringing up the issue of ISA detainees they practically praised him for doing piecemeal for wronged judges. I also hope YB Karpal Singh doesnt come out with his holier than thou statement on this matter to further complicate things. DSAI must win convincingly in Permatang Pauh, pls dont give ammo to BN
August 10th, 2008 at 00: 34.09
I find that the recent crisis afflicting non-muslim spouses and children very disturbing and a torn in the flesh that could provoke further racial clashes if it’s not dealt with efficiently. Before I comment further,lets evaluate some of the teaching of Islam on this matter so that we can have a better perspective of the issue at hand. If any Islamic scholar thinks that my facts are wrong feel free to correct me as I’m trying my level best as a non muslim to understand your religion better.
In any case the heart of the matter is that children born of Muslim lineage will be considered Muslims and according to Islamic law the door of apostasy will never be opened to them. If anyone of them renounces Islam, he will be as deserving of execution as the person who has renounced kufr (Infidels or Apostate)to become a Muslim and again has chosen the way of kufr. Next ,lets look at how this Islamic teaching first started. During that time Islamic revolution occurs within the Muslim population and people who in belief and practice have defected from Islam and wish to remain as defectors should formally disclose their non-Muslim identity and leave the social order within a year from the date of the notification. After this period all those who are born of Muslim lineage will be considered to be Muslim, they will be subject to all Islamic laws, they will be compelled to perform the religious duties and obligations, and then whoever steps outside the fold of Islam will be executed. Following this announcement utmost effort should be made to save as many sons and daughters born of Muslims as possible from the lap of kufr. Then whoever cannot be saved by any means should be cut off and cast away, sadly but firmly, from his society forever. After this act of purification a new life for Islamic society may begin with only those Muslims who are dedicated to Islam.
You can say about a person who initially was a non-Muslim, then chose Islam and thereafter chose kufr again, that he knowingly erred. Why did he join a community religion, knowing that its door of departure was closed to him? But it is a somewhat different matter when a person himself never accepted Islam but Islam naturally became his religion by virtue of his being born to Muslim parents. If such a person, having arrived at the age of discretion, is dissatisfied with Islam and wants to leave it, it is a terrible injustice to compel him also to remain in Islam and subjecting him to Islamic laws. This extreme law appears even more unfair if only one of the parents is a muslim.
Having a forum to discuss on this issue is not a challenge to the Islamic religion . Many non muslims whom spouse converted to Islam without their knowledge are left without legal means to address their grievances. Is it fair to ask them to seek justice in the syariah court ? This issue needs to be resolve soon and fast by the present government before its too late. Lets discuss about this together with the Islamic authorities and hopefully some solution can be found to address this dilemma . We live in a multiracial and multi religion society and whatever differences should be handle with care and upmost priority especially those related to religion . Sweeping this issue under the carpet is not an option and protesting against the forum is not helping either. Lets sit down together and discuss this issue in a civilized manner and consideration on the sensitiveness of each other religion and find an amicable solution to this issue for the sake of every citizen living in Malaysia.
August 10th, 2008 at 00: 42.17
fish-warezmasterz, well said..that is why after today each and every right thinking non-Muslim should be thinking of a Plan B for their future, which does not necessarily entail running to other countries. If people cannot get justice or dignity through the political system whether government or opposition, then it is high time we started thinking outside of a political viewpoint and more towards a social viewpoint.
Contrary to your assertions, it has nothing to do with freedom but with dignity. You might ask the Iraqis that, with their new found made in USA freedom, what they think of the Yanks.
August 10th, 2008 at 01: 08.11
A godly religion has been made into a mockery by some un-nurtured Muslims in Malaysia. The whole conversion to Islam is nothing but a plot by these Muslims. What glory and harmony one could get by secretly converting a person to Islam without the knowledge of his family members. Which godly religion allows one to be an accomplice and instigator to someone who has decided to cheat his parents, siblings, wife and children.
No where in the world we have such situation. Instead of spreading the goodness of their faith to make non-Muslims to respect they are doing everything under the sun to dislike and hate Islam. I hold this group solely responsible for non-Muslims’ fear and dislike. I’m also perplexed how easily ordinary Muslims could be exploited by the few people who wear turban and speak a few Arabic versus claiming they are the twin brother of god.
I really sympathize with them!
August 10th, 2008 at 01: 09.09
Captain, your frustrations are much justified. However the demo today transcends religion. It is political opportunists that took centre stage today. There is a by election coming. All politicians who are fighting for Malay votes will need to do something lest they lose out to their rivals. Similarly non-Muslim politicians also need to speak out in support lest their rivals do it and they don’t.
Sad but true. Bar Council has gotten the timing wrong, deliberate or otherwise. As a result politicians muslim and non took the initiative.
August 10th, 2008 at 01: 12.14
What happened today at the Bar Council Building is a shame on our police force.
A discussion was taking place in a private premise.
Demonstrators were outside. They threatened to storm the premises.
Instead of dispersing the demonstrators, the police told the organisers to stop the discussion.
It was an opportunity lost - lost at the hands of the 200 demonstrators.
I cannot see the neutrality of the police. Another two hours of discussion at a private premises might have come out with some resolutions or proposals.
But it was cut short. Why can’t the police disperse the demonstrators by telling them that if they should storm a private premises, they woud be trespassers?
Maybe, in Malaysia, we should study LOGIC spelt backward as in CIGOL.
August 10th, 2008 at 01: 27.57
The opposition is playing into the hands of UMNO! Take one baby step at a time! Leave the religion and religious issues alone for now until Pakatan takes over the federal government. This is not an election year. This is stupid of the Bar Council!
August 10th, 2008 at 01: 29.15
If these lawyers want to flex their muscles they should have done so ages ago - not now!! This is stupid!
August 10th, 2008 at 01: 31.22
What next?? Is the Bar Council going to propose that Islam ceases to be the “religion of the federation”? Bloody cowards! Nothing but opportunists of the worst kind!
August 10th, 2008 at 01: 48.06
undergrad2, I admit the timing of the forum s@cks. In hindsight it should have jointly organise this forum with a Muslim NGO. Or heck, even the topic could have been less sensitive and venue could have been more neutral. But what’s done has been done.
However, what’s done has given an opportunity to the politicians to get a piece of the action. The real opportunists were in the crowd today and were also issuing press statements in support or opposition to the forum. They are all in one political party or another with either predominantly muslim or non muslim supporters. Everybody wants to say the politically correct thing.
There were real life accounts of victims today. If the Bar Council is genuine in airing their grouses and also having an intellectual discussion about the state of the law in the country then kudos to them. But what the BC has not considered is, and I say this with a caveat that there is no ulterior motive on BCs part, their actions will mobilise a huge band of politicians seizing the moment. I’ll say it again : the timing, topic, venue and planning s@cks!
August 10th, 2008 at 01: 59.31
Dear YB,
Why you are not commenting on PAS and Keadilan who played the “main role” to stop this forum?
A PKR YB even called the crowed to break in the building.
Wich is more racial YB? UMNO who just tried to stop the forum, or PKR and PAS (2/3 of PR) who took their racial stand to the road??
MIC have expressed their press statement on that matter via their youth wing as i posted above.
Is it fair to aim all your ammos towards BN when the things are uglier in your camp?
August 10th, 2008 at 02: 04.21
No, No, No… this is already too dangerous for all of us, at the WRONG TIME too. We have just begun to start working together - DAP / PAS / PKR… and Permatang Pauh is very near already. Who the hell suddenly came up with this lawyer thing trying to talk about ISLAM and put us all in this mess? Can everybody be very carefull in organizing things that may hurt others?
Leave ISLAM and MUSLIM matters to be solved internally by all parties in PAKATAN RAKYAT and PAS is already very good in talking about this. How come suddenly all these unknown lawyer come forward and want to take over this sensitive job?
Pakatan Rakyat can talk to each other ABOUT ISLAM CONVERSION in a special meeting in a near future, in our own FORUM - organised by us. Pls don’t allow other people to do this job for us. NOT EVEN UMNO (do they really understand ISLAM?)
Please.. please… we have a lot of things to do now. Victory is already in our hands - very soon! Don’t spoilt it, for GOD sake…
August 10th, 2008 at 02: 04.45
punithan shan, thanks for lending credence to my assertions.
August 10th, 2008 at 02: 05.53
yes, oh mob, don’t insult islam!…
well, well, what did i tell you in my ealier post - that interesting things will happen, it did!a group of people (the mob!) did gathered in protest of the forum.
"the demonstration against the forum clearly show us (at least myself) that only the…
August 10th, 2008 at 02: 20.22
At them moment, all muslim here in Malaysia are confused and shocked by this FORUM. Who approved it / authorised it and why it is held in that manner. ALL MUSLIM means even PAS and PKR and, of course UMNO, are confused by this move and therefore they object it. If you must blame PAS or PKR for joining in to stop this forum, then, i believe, PAKATAN RAKYAT must invite PKR and PAS to jointly resolve this problem in a special forum or in a man-to-man talk.
Pls, stop blaming and accusing the other party in PR or else UMNO will be very happy to say that our team is already collapsed! By the way, is this forum is organised by DAP?
August 10th, 2008 at 03: 11.36
Chinese who were victims of one-child policy or Falungong could gain asylum in the western world. For the converted muslims who have to reconvert, is there such a possibility of asylum in the western world?
August 10th, 2008 at 03: 24.58
sirrganass, did you see any DAP leader at the forum? No it was a Bar Council forum to have a rational dialogue between Muslims and non-Muslims. And no we should not just sweep this under the carpet just for the sake of a meaningless victory in a by-election. You are in effect saying the same thing as UMNO say to MCA/MIC/Gerakan. Once appeasement starts, it will never end.
And maybe you didn’t understand what the forum was about did you? Leave it to be solved internally by Muslims? Then what about the mother and daughter who had their property seized by the religious authorities, the mother whose insurance was confiscated by the religious authorities, and the pain of all the non-Muslim families when the religious authorities come knocking at their door? How to leave it to be solved internally when it is the non-Muslim families who are burned, hurt, cheated and robbed by the religious authorities?
You all can go and stuff your meaningless and hollow victory down the toilet. Because that is all you are good for - hollow, superficial, surface victories. The time when you are ready to fight for victory on serious issues, on core issues, fundamental issues then we can celebrate. Otherwise why bother? We are just changing the personnel in charge of the system when what we should be concentrating on is changing the system.
And why the rush to take over the government? Is it because Pakatan Rakyat is inherently weak and build on the weakest of foundations that it would crumble if it has to contest with Barisan Nasional for the next 5 years? Say what you like, but BN did win the election and form the government..who is Pakatan Rakyat to annul that election by forming a government through defections?
And don’t bother to give your excuses on winning government through defections. After all Barisan Nasional also can play the same game. Then what would you say then, without making yourself a hypocrite? So easy is it you people sacrifice your principles for the short-term gain?
August 10th, 2008 at 04: 31.11
m.hwang Says:
Today at 01: 48.06 (2 hours ago)
undergrad2, I admit the timing of the forum s@cks. … even the topic could have been less sensitive and venue could have been more neutral. But what’s done has been done.”
You see, when UMNO starts beating the drums of narrow Malay nationalism (read: Muslim Malay nationalism) it puts everybody on the defensive - including their supporters. History shows that people made to think and feel that they are about to lose their rights, their core values and are put on the defensive will never stop fighting to resist any form of change. It is all about the defense of the status quo.
What we are doing is to give them cause to beat those drums!
August 10th, 2008 at 04: 37.21
“The Police failed in its duty when instead of upholding the law, they sided with the protestors in ensuring the abrupt end of the half-day forum at 10 am.” Kit
You are assuming that PDRM (rather than just a police force whose primary duty is to maintain public order) is neutral. How could that be when the entire civil service has long lost its neutrality and has become an appendage of the BN machinery?? PDRM did not fail. It excelled in its duty.
August 10th, 2008 at 04: 51.19
Zulkifli is not fit to be a leader and will cost PKR severe losses if he remains in the party. He has raised antircism sentiments towards the indians and chinese. It is very hurtful for his group of thugs to croak racial slurs yesterday, there was no need to utter “india cina balik and go to hell ” . This country would not be what it is today had it not been for their significant contribution. There is a huge exodus of non malays to australia,new zealand,europe and america since 2000 because of these sort of remarks. Mind you a significant brain drain, talented professionals who have had enough of this nonsence and have become residence in these contries that acknowledge merit based appointments and not race. Even america has recognised a black leader lately. These parties better brace up for the non malays have zero tolerance with these sort of uncalled for sentiments.
August 10th, 2008 at 07: 09.04
PPl of PR, Pls pls, stop this centuries old ‘virus’ subject from getting out of hand. We are not there yet?
Yes, I agree the timing s@#!ks,.
I’ve mention before, if theres anything you read that do not
help PR getting into New Government, Its a virus. This topic
is one of them. Be patient lah..
To see ppl issuing threats against individual in this blog shows you just how backward some ppl are. Know what? Some ppl just
refuse to changed - LET GO!
There are many more other stuff
to improved. Im not implying to keep quiet, afterall, this blog
is suppose to be “No hold bars?”. Its the timing, some of our bros have also mentioned it here. Lets be civilised and not Civil-LIES like others?
For now, just take extra caution coz, the stakes are too high now.So closed…. pray for patient, strengths, peace, and wisdom to all our PR ppl.
August 10th, 2008 at 08: 15.20
zulkifli noordin arrested under ISA!!
August 10th, 2008 at 08: 39.25
No reason for Bar Council to be blamed on “timing” of forum. It is a forum on issues pertaining to social justice and law (the Bar Council’s concerns). One can say its wrong timing when PR is making a pitch for Puterajaya. You can say this because some prominent PKR & PAS characters are amongst the 300 protesters generating doubts amongst PR’s suporters why this is so. However the fault lies not with a Bar Council which being apolitical is not concerned as to when is politically the right timing to have that forum. The fault lies with leaders /organisers of the 300 who wanted and succeeded to usurp the public space relating to a rational discourse on conversion cases and problems related to non muslim family members and to stop such a forum (even though it was close door and a lawful one) to demonstrate that their opposition to such a forum was of greater importance that, no matter how small their numbers, authorities would appease. They wanted to assert that their voices and views that such a forum should be stopped represented the views of all Muslims. The fact that authorities helped them stop the forum rather than disperse the demonstration proved and underscored their point that a vociferous minority waving the banner of religion could any time now and in the future always have their way in exerting influence on public opinion disproportionate with their small numbers and succeed in their objectives no matter the other side stopped was lawfully and rationally conducting themselves.
Yes I agree that blaming the police deflects Pakatan Rakyat’s leaders – whether YB Kit or Anwar - of how to deal with elements within the opposition coalition playing the same religious card that they accuse the BN of. Indeed the whole problem of what to do with PAS has not been confronted, since all considerations have been placed on how to reach Putera Jaya without hitches than to address these fundamental issues of ideological differences between PR’s main component parties, the pervasive traits of political opportunism and religious fundamentalism within our political culture which BN has been blamed unable to address but regarding which the PR could do no better as the present incident affecting the Bar Council amply illustrates!
It is not just a adverse reflection of law order/religious harmony - that is in large part true - but equally true is that it is relection that when PR’s members are involved in such unlawful protest and the PR leadership can do nothing about it - then it undermines PR’s credibility to criticise the BN leadership for failing to curb such extremist behaviour or even to fan and gain political mileage out of it.
August 10th, 2008 at 09: 04.16
Take it as a lesson. One of the causes for the outrage was the wrong choice of words used. Sang Kelembai has a good piece on this topic.
I think that certain parties are just becoming arrogant and being insensitive to the nature of Malaysian society that has been proven in history to be easily provoked.
August 10th, 2008 at 10: 23.08
The Beijing Olympic opening ceremony was really an eye opener to the world.The spectacular and successful event was the culmination of the hard work contributed by the people and the liberal and pragmatic policies of the leadership.Countries that are obsessed with backward and foolish religious practices will never attain the progress achieved by the Chinese.
August 10th, 2008 at 10: 23.23
Don’t the non-muslim citizens of Malaysia have a say when syariah courts in the country ram paritsan decisions down their throats?
The syariah courts don’t have jurisdiction over non-muslims and civil courts do not accommodate any pleas of the non-muslims under the pretext that religious issues (read Islamic religious issues only) are out of their jurisdiction, where are the affected non-muslims to approach for justice?
When civil courts wash off their obligations and duty to see justice is done, then the whole civil jurisprudence of the country becomes a travesty of justice.
Why are the muslims in this country so scared that their religious rights would be compromised by having inter-faith forums or forums to discuss the religious rights of minority religions in the country?
Nobody is usurping their rights that is already enshrined in the constitution as are the rights of non-muslims to practice the religion of their choice.
I thought only UMNO has lost its ability to control its members when they are openly questioning and challenging the leadership. It looks as if PKR and PAS are in the same boat.
The misguided PKR leader from Kulim and the PAS members who made bloody fools of themselves trying to portray themselves as the guardians of Islam in this country are not Malaysians but Malay-Muslim racist who do not understand the Malaysian Constitution and the rule of law.
If Pakatan Rakyat does not control such bigots and take disciplinary action against them, it may find itself in the same quandary as the BN in the next elections and for that matter even in the Permatang Pauh by-elections.
Politicians should stop playing to the gallery. Such short-sightedness does not solve problems but aggravate them.
DON’T ABUSE THE TRUST PLACED IN YOU!
August 10th, 2008 at 10: 31.00
The stand of all Muslims in Malaysia whether BN or pakatan is clear: Kafirs are not allowed to even TALK about their religion. We have to accept this, that our religious believes are in their eyes, false and we are to live as Dhimmis or convert.
August 10th, 2008 at 10: 59.33
If after 50 years of independence - and after many many Malaysians of all races have become more educated and tertiary educated - racism and religious extremism have got worse about which neither ruling or opposition coalition could do much about - then what is there to say that for the next 50 years it would likely get better? I think it might get much worse!
August 10th, 2008 at 11: 01.00
The forum organized by the Bar Council was an insult to Muslim.
August 10th, 2008 at 11: 15.27
I am very disappointed with some members of the Bar Council for mishandling the issue of religious conversion, worst of all, to make prejudices against another religion, instead of uniting they divides Malaysian of all races and religions further apart.
August 10th, 2008 at 11: 17.15
I don’t think Sisters-in Islam would say the forum organised by Bar Council was an insult to Muslim. If something that is inherently not insulting were deliberately construed for political leverage to be insulting by organisers of 20 Muslim NGOs opposing the forum, are we going to say that the judgment of those NGOs holds as truth (that something not insulting can be twisted to be insulting)? And further it may further be asked whether those 20 NGOs including GPMS, Kimma, Muslim Consumer Association and Muslim welfare group Pekida would represent the majority of Muslims in the country in their views? If it is conceded that they do, why don’t we appease and allow the implementation of all that these NGOs advocate? I am sure they advocate or at least not adverse to PAS’s establishment of the Islamic theocratic ala PAS version. If they represent majority, what is the problem in going along with them?
August 10th, 2008 at 11: 22.58
The issue is whether those who for political mileage would construe every issue as either religiously or racially sensitive when it is not should be appeased and their views no matter contrary to logic or facts should be held in higher regard just because they are justified on some race or religious grounds. Who is arbiter and defines what is an insult or not - the organisations that say it is an insult? Is that all, is it a neutral and fair arbiter?
August 10th, 2008 at 11: 31.50
Those muslims NGOs participating in the public for