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	<title>Comments on: Why not BN-PR talks rather than Umno-PAS talks?</title>
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	<link>http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2008/07/31/why-not-bn-pr-talks-rather-than-umno-pas-talks/</link>
	<description>for Malaysia</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 11:35:25 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: sirrganass</title>
		<link>http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2008/07/31/why-not-bn-pr-talks-rather-than-umno-pas-talks/#comment-129076</link>
		<dc:creator>sirrganass</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Aug 2008 06:14:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2008/07/31/why-not-bn-pr-talks-rather-than-umno-pas-talks/#comment-129076</guid>
		<description>I was trying to understand why so suddenly the issue of "PAS talk to UMNO" covers this page again. Anything happened recently that PAS is caught talking to UMNO again? I thought that issue was over and PAS has reiterated many times here and there that &lt;b&gt;PAS will stick to PR and won't pack with UMNO.&lt;/b&gt;

OIC, the real messege by LKS above is not about that, but it is on LKS's indication of his deep worry about PAS's policy of implementing HUDUD/QISAS (whether together with UMNO or independently).

A good number of comments here are indicating that &lt;b&gt;PAS should leave PR&lt;/b&gt;. For good? It is not ok for PAS to be in PR and implement hudud for muslim s(only for muslim)? Is is really better to require PAS to leave PR and implement Hudud with UMNO instead? Are you sure?

DAP wants the Malaysian Malaysia (Still a racial issue). But PAS wants HUDUD for MUSLIM - Muslim ONLY - this is &lt;b&gt;not a racial issue&lt;/b&gt;.  And still you saying PAS is THAT BAD? 

Will "HUDUD for MUSLIM" spoil your "Malaysian Malaysia" agenda?

Do you actually wish to say that there shouldn't be any Pas's Syariah/Hudud Law (only for Muslim) in Malaysia? Syariah Court must be replaced with DAP's Secular Law? Is it like that? 

Be careful, friends! UMNO is your "enemy". and PAS seems to be your enemy too? Then.... how? Go back to UMNO, right?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was trying to understand why so suddenly the issue of &#8220;PAS talk to UMNO&#8221; covers this page again. Anything happened recently that PAS is caught talking to UMNO again? I thought that issue was over and PAS has reiterated many times here and there that <b>PAS will stick to PR and won&#8217;t pack with UMNO.</b></p>
<p>OIC, the real messege by LKS above is not about that, but it is on LKS&#8217;s indication of his deep worry about PAS&#8217;s policy of implementing HUDUD/QISAS (whether together with UMNO or independently).</p>
<p>A good number of comments here are indicating that <b>PAS should leave PR</b>. For good? It is not ok for PAS to be in PR and implement hudud for muslim s(only for muslim)? Is is really better to require PAS to leave PR and implement Hudud with UMNO instead? Are you sure?</p>
<p>DAP wants the Malaysian Malaysia (Still a racial issue). But PAS wants HUDUD for MUSLIM - Muslim ONLY - this is <b>not a racial issue</b>.  And still you saying PAS is THAT BAD? </p>
<p>Will &#8220;HUDUD for MUSLIM&#8221; spoil your &#8220;Malaysian Malaysia&#8221; agenda?</p>
<p>Do you actually wish to say that there shouldn&#8217;t be any Pas&#8217;s Syariah/Hudud Law (only for Muslim) in Malaysia? Syariah Court must be replaced with DAP&#8217;s Secular Law? Is it like that? </p>
<p>Be careful, friends! UMNO is your &#8220;enemy&#8221;. and PAS seems to be your enemy too? Then&#8230;. how? Go back to UMNO, right?</p>
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		<title>By: pjboy</title>
		<link>http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2008/07/31/why-not-bn-pr-talks-rather-than-umno-pas-talks/#comment-121665</link>
		<dc:creator>pjboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Aug 2008 15:49:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2008/07/31/why-not-bn-pr-talks-rather-than-umno-pas-talks/#comment-121665</guid>
		<description>Should this be the case: 

Chinese tax-payers pay into a Chinese-only fund. 

Malay tax-payers pay into a Malay-only fund. 

Indian tax-payers pay into an Indian-only fund. 

Each race will determine how the tax-$ to be spent. 

so on &#38; so forth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Should this be the case: </p>
<p>Chinese tax-payers pay into a Chinese-only fund. </p>
<p>Malay tax-payers pay into a Malay-only fund. </p>
<p>Indian tax-payers pay into an Indian-only fund. </p>
<p>Each race will determine how the tax-$ to be spent. </p>
<p>so on &amp; so forth.</p>
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		<title>By: shadow</title>
		<link>http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2008/07/31/why-not-bn-pr-talks-rather-than-umno-pas-talks/#comment-121641</link>
		<dc:creator>shadow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Aug 2008 13:21:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2008/07/31/why-not-bn-pr-talks-rather-than-umno-pas-talks/#comment-121641</guid>
		<description>Zak for your eyes only:
PAS+UMNO= Party Islam Malaysia
DAP+PKR+MCA+MIC+GERAKAN+PPP and other small parties= PR
I want peace and not disaster and that we can definitely get in this beautiful country for years to come. We need only the right person to manage this country. You know what I mean.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Zak for your eyes only:<br />
PAS+UMNO= Party Islam Malaysia<br />
DAP+PKR+MCA+MIC+GERAKAN+PPP and other small parties= PR<br />
I want peace and not disaster and that we can definitely get in this beautiful country for years to come. We need only the right person to manage this country. You know what I mean.</p>
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		<title>By: Bigjoe</title>
		<link>http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2008/07/31/why-not-bn-pr-talks-rather-than-umno-pas-talks/#comment-121554</link>
		<dc:creator>Bigjoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Aug 2008 02:04:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2008/07/31/why-not-bn-pr-talks-rather-than-umno-pas-talks/#comment-121554</guid>
		<description>Secularism by definition means 'off this world'. Basically the system of government must be based on human reason above all else and divinity is not a begining of everything which is theological. Check your definition and understandings. Most Malay if you ask them if secularism is ungodly, agree which just goes to show their idea of secularism among them is not based on facts. Just because Secularism means human reason is to be used, its up to us to chose how much divinity we want when human reason fails. The US has took a stand of never, its not necesarily so although its 240 year experiment has proven to be very interesting and powerful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Secularism by definition means &#8216;off this world&#8217;. Basically the system of government must be based on human reason above all else and divinity is not a begining of everything which is theological. Check your definition and understandings. Most Malay if you ask them if secularism is ungodly, agree which just goes to show their idea of secularism among them is not based on facts. Just because Secularism means human reason is to be used, its up to us to chose how much divinity we want when human reason fails. The US has took a stand of never, its not necesarily so although its 240 year experiment has proven to be very interesting and powerful.</p>
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		<title>By: AhPek</title>
		<link>http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2008/07/31/why-not-bn-pr-talks-rather-than-umno-pas-talks/#comment-121502</link>
		<dc:creator>AhPek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:41:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2008/07/31/why-not-bn-pr-talks-rather-than-umno-pas-talks/#comment-121502</guid>
		<description>Secularism, as I understand it,is adoctrine of separation of state affairs from religious affairs.It simplymeans preventing any religion from controlling government or government institutions and exercising political power.It is officially neutral in matters of religion,neither supporting nor opposing any particular religious beliefs or practices.Precisely because of this, secularism offers the best protection to religions pratised by minority groups of any country.
Zak,how could secular idealogy be so inimical that Malays can't stomach it because it directly contradicts Islam.How could that be since secularism is neutral
in religious matters,neither supporting nor opposing any particular religious beliefs and practices, unless of course you tell me that Islam's objective is to make any state they are in Islamic and replace existing laws by installing syariah laws.If you say it is then I can begin to understand the fundamental problem afflicting our world today.
As far as I know you would not find objections from other religions like Hinduism,Buddhism, Christianity,Taoism in embracing secularism because inherent in its practice is a sense of fair play.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Secularism, as I understand it,is adoctrine of separation of state affairs from religious affairs.It simplymeans preventing any religion from controlling government or government institutions and exercising political power.It is officially neutral in matters of religion,neither supporting nor opposing any particular religious beliefs or practices.Precisely because of this, secularism offers the best protection to religions pratised by minority groups of any country.<br />
Zak,how could secular idealogy be so inimical that Malays can&#8217;t stomach it because it directly contradicts Islam.How could that be since secularism is neutral<br />
in religious matters,neither supporting nor opposing any particular religious beliefs and practices, unless of course you tell me that Islam&#8217;s objective is to make any state they are in Islamic and replace existing laws by installing syariah laws.If you say it is then I can begin to understand the fundamental problem afflicting our world today.<br />
As far as I know you would not find objections from other religions like Hinduism,Buddhism, Christianity,Taoism in embracing secularism because inherent in its practice is a sense of fair play.</p>
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		<title>By: undergrad2</title>
		<link>http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2008/07/31/why-not-bn-pr-talks-rather-than-umno-pas-talks/#comment-121495</link>
		<dc:creator>undergrad2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:17:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2008/07/31/why-not-bn-pr-talks-rather-than-umno-pas-talks/#comment-121495</guid>
		<description>Zak_hammaad asks readers on this blog:

Q1. “Do you ever pick up a book and read?”

Q2. “Do you ever get out of your house and travel …?”

I am here to report that we are all illiterate or semi-illiterate at best. If we could read at all, our reading skills, unlike yours, are limited to reciting nursery rhymes. As for travel, the furthest we have travelled has been as far as our own backyards to tend to our cows and goats – unlike you who has traveled the world, been there done that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Zak_hammaad asks readers on this blog:</p>
<p>Q1. “Do you ever pick up a book and read?”</p>
<p>Q2. “Do you ever get out of your house and travel …?”</p>
<p>I am here to report that we are all illiterate or semi-illiterate at best. If we could read at all, our reading skills, unlike yours, are limited to reciting nursery rhymes. As for travel, the furthest we have travelled has been as far as our own backyards to tend to our cows and goats – unlike you who has traveled the world, been there done that.</p>
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		<title>By: Al-Hujraat_13</title>
		<link>http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2008/07/31/why-not-bn-pr-talks-rather-than-umno-pas-talks/#comment-121394</link>
		<dc:creator>Al-Hujraat_13</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Aug 2008 08:13:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2008/07/31/why-not-bn-pr-talks-rather-than-umno-pas-talks/#comment-121394</guid>
		<description>Bro bigjoe,

Zak_hammaad is right when he says that:
‘ secular ideology that DAP proposes is impossible for most Malays to stomach because it directly contradicts Islam’.

I can actually agree with the statement as being a malay muslim myself, it directly relates to me. Although I do not consider myself as ultra-religious, my conscience is clear that one day I'll be able to practice the teachings of Islam whole heartedly. There is absolutely no doubts about that!

You are misguide when you say:
(i) The "Malay opposed the idea of secularity based on populist and not based on facts". 
(ii) Secularity does not contradict Islam.

As a race, the "Malay" can choose to be whatever that they have wanted to be. That's why you'll see so many malays in the like of UMNO's ultra-elite, those "punks" from the ranks of malay youth, those "mat &#38; minah rempits", those "bohsia's", those socialite's who frequently goes to pubs, discos, bars etc... These malays doesn't quite take Islam seriously and they themselves are sometimes are misguided about Islam. That's why you can see a lot of "self-confessed" muslims asking for bribes, are corrupted to the core, racists and doing a lot of things which are a blatant contradictions to the teachings of Islam. However, I'm not condemning anybody. It's a freedom of choice and it's up to them to be whatever they've wanted to be... 

However it is very much different for real "muslims", who wants or hope to really practice Islam in it's entirety. Muslims are not bound by race. Muslims are supposed to be as anybody in this world who confess to the teachings of Islam. How can these people accept Secularism when it is actually the opposite of Islam. Literally, Islam means "submission". It is a "way of life" for a life long journey. A journey for oneself until the time we all die. Therefore, how can a muslim accept secularism when Islam is supposed to be a way of life?
 
About the so-called rich Muslims who spend so much time and even migrate in droves to Western secular countries, it's all about a matter of preferences. Islam never forced anybody to confirm to it's teachings. It's up to the individual. Islam is also about practicality. It does not enforce itself on any country where the majority of peoples are not muslim. Neither does it cordoned the oppression of minority where the muslims are the majority (That's why the very practice of UMNO here in Malaysia has nothing to do with Islam). That is why you'll see temples are allowed to be built in Kelantan under PAS-led government. That is why all of the talks regarding racial issues with UMNO is very un-Islamic and shouldn't be allowed to happened in the first place.

That's also why I cant understand the "phobia" of DAP or any "non-muslims" in Malaysia who will jump to the merely words on anything islamic? Try to understand this. UMNO did what it did because it choose to be an "Ultra-Nationalist" malay party. Nothing to do with Islam. The word Islam comes later when UMNO is in a dilemma when the malay world is experiencing a revival in Islam. So as any political party, in order to become relevant it has to also associate itself with islam, albeit in a very suspicious manner.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bro bigjoe,</p>
<p>Zak_hammaad is right when he says that:<br />
‘ secular ideology that DAP proposes is impossible for most Malays to stomach because it directly contradicts Islam’.</p>
<p>I can actually agree with the statement as being a malay muslim myself, it directly relates to me. Although I do not consider myself as ultra-religious, my conscience is clear that one day I&#8217;ll be able to practice the teachings of Islam whole heartedly. There is absolutely no doubts about that!</p>
<p>You are misguide when you say:<br />
(i) The &#8220;Malay opposed the idea of secularity based on populist and not based on facts&#8221;.<br />
(ii) Secularity does not contradict Islam.</p>
<p>As a race, the &#8220;Malay&#8221; can choose to be whatever that they have wanted to be. That&#8217;s why you&#8217;ll see so many malays in the like of UMNO&#8217;s ultra-elite, those &#8220;punks&#8221; from the ranks of malay youth, those &#8220;mat &amp; minah rempits&#8221;, those &#8220;bohsia&#8217;s&#8221;, those socialite&#8217;s who frequently goes to pubs, discos, bars etc&#8230; These malays doesn&#8217;t quite take Islam seriously and they themselves are sometimes are misguided about Islam. That&#8217;s why you can see a lot of &#8220;self-confessed&#8221; muslims asking for bribes, are corrupted to the core, racists and doing a lot of things which are a blatant contradictions to the teachings of Islam. However, I&#8217;m not condemning anybody. It&#8217;s a freedom of choice and it&#8217;s up to them to be whatever they&#8217;ve wanted to be&#8230; </p>
<p>However it is very much different for real &#8220;muslims&#8221;, who wants or hope to really practice Islam in it&#8217;s entirety. Muslims are not bound by race. Muslims are supposed to be as anybody in this world who confess to the teachings of Islam. How can these people accept Secularism when it is actually the opposite of Islam. Literally, Islam means &#8220;submission&#8221;. It is a &#8220;way of life&#8221; for a life long journey. A journey for oneself until the time we all die. Therefore, how can a muslim accept secularism when Islam is supposed to be a way of life?</p>
<p>About the so-called rich Muslims who spend so much time and even migrate in droves to Western secular countries, it&#8217;s all about a matter of preferences. Islam never forced anybody to confirm to it&#8217;s teachings. It&#8217;s up to the individual. Islam is also about practicality. It does not enforce itself on any country where the majority of peoples are not muslim. Neither does it cordoned the oppression of minority where the muslims are the majority (That&#8217;s why the very practice of UMNO here in Malaysia has nothing to do with Islam). That is why you&#8217;ll see temples are allowed to be built in Kelantan under PAS-led government. That is why all of the talks regarding racial issues with UMNO is very un-Islamic and shouldn&#8217;t be allowed to happened in the first place.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s also why I cant understand the &#8220;phobia&#8221; of DAP or any &#8220;non-muslims&#8221; in Malaysia who will jump to the merely words on anything islamic? Try to understand this. UMNO did what it did because it choose to be an &#8220;Ultra-Nationalist&#8221; malay party. Nothing to do with Islam. The word Islam comes later when UMNO is in a dilemma when the malay world is experiencing a revival in Islam. So as any political party, in order to become relevant it has to also associate itself with islam, albeit in a very suspicious manner.</p>
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		<title>By: raverus</title>
		<link>http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2008/07/31/why-not-bn-pr-talks-rather-than-umno-pas-talks/#comment-121304</link>
		<dc:creator>raverus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Aug 2008 02:16:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2008/07/31/why-not-bn-pr-talks-rather-than-umno-pas-talks/#comment-121304</guid>
		<description>Answer: $
Do you think amno can survive without cronyism?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Answer: $<br />
Do you think amno can survive without cronyism?</p>
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		<title>By: k1980</title>
		<link>http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2008/07/31/why-not-bn-pr-talks-rather-than-umno-pas-talks/#comment-121290</link>
		<dc:creator>k1980</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Aug 2008 01:47:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2008/07/31/why-not-bn-pr-talks-rather-than-umno-pas-talks/#comment-121290</guid>
		<description>Heheheeh.. I have &lt;i&gt;dollah&lt;/i&gt;ed you all for the past 5 years
http://sloone.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/walktogether.jpg?w=300&#38;h=240</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heheheeh.. I have <i>dollah</i>ed you all for the past 5 years<br />
<a href="http://sloone.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/walktogether.jpg?w=300&amp;h=240" rel="nofollow">http://sloone.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/walktogether.jpg?w=300&amp;h=240</a></p>
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