PAS: Caught between Old and New


By Farish A. Noor

Now that the cat is out of the bag and the whole of Malaysia knows that there have been secret backroom dealings between UMNO and PAS; ostensibly to bring the two parties together in the name of Malay-Muslim communal solidarity, we need to pause a while and look at the political factors at work.

I highlight the political factors at work here for frankly, I see little of Islam or Islamic ethics at work in this latest round of UMNO-PAS dialogue.

Some basic historical facts are in order: PAS has, in the past, already been part of the BN UMNO-led alliance in the mid-1970s. This was during the time when PAS was led by Asri Muda, perhaps the most ethno-nationalist among PAS’s leaders and a man who was seen by many as a Malay first and a Muslim second. PAS’s entry into the BN was not without opposition: Many PAS leaders and members abandoned the party and gave up on the Islamist struggle for good. When PAS was in the BN it had to toe the BN line and even contested on the BN ticket. PAS was discredited in the eyes of an entire younger generation of Malaysians and this opened the way for the rise of new Islamist groups like ABIM and Darul Arqam instead. PAS’s marriage of convenience led to it being effectively emasculated by UMNO and when it finally left the BN in late 1970s, its base-state Kelantan was in a shambles where a state of Emergency had been declared. PAS lost Kelantan and it took the party more than a decade before it won it back in 1990.

It is for this reason that PAS veterans like Tuan Guru Nik Aziz feel so strongly that this latest round of dialogues between UMNO and PAS should stop, as he senses hidden hands that are out to instrumentalise PAS yet again.

But who are the ones who are trying to bring PAS and UMNO together? It is widely reported that among the PAS leaders who are trying to engineer this deal there are the younger PAS leaders who were not even members of the party in the 1970s, and hence they do not have the same bitter memories of betrayal and defeat like Nik Aziz does.

Looking at the profile of some of these PAS leaders, we see that they tend to come from the more outwardly conservative faction who seem more interested in superficial aspects of Islam and Islamisation such as dress codes, making people go to mosques, promoting dakwah (missionary) activities and the like.

Yet PAS is divided between the old and the new and there are also new, progressive forces in the party that understand the need to bring PAS into the political mainstream and to make the party relevant to the Malaysian public as a whole, regardless of race and religion. These are the PAS leaders who were at the forefront of the BERSIH campaign for free and fair elections, the ones who have been calling for more transparency and accountability, the ones who have tried to re-construct PAS into a modern, relevant Islamist party with national aspirations.

Between these two factions, who were the ones who helped to give PAS its victory at the recent March elections?

It is obvious that PAS’s gains this time round were partly due to the efforts of the PAS progressives who had managed to re-invent the party’s image as a modern Islamic party that is more concerned with economic-structural issues like transparency, accountability, free elections, free press and democracy. These were the issues that captured the minds of the new electorate in Malaysia, and not questions like what length a Muslim’s beard ought to be. Furthermore, it was they who managed to secure the support of thousands of non-Malay and non-Muslims who voted for PAS as part of the Pakatan Rakyat on the basis of trust (amanah) and were willing to give PAS a chance to prove that it could reach beyond its Malay-Muslim electorate and speak for all Malaysians.

As a result of this current round of UMNO-PAS negotiations, PAS’s image as a new, modern Islamic party is being deminished by the day. So is the trust and confidence of the Malaysian electorate, in particular the non-Malays and non-Muslims, who in the end may conclude that PAS’s appeals to the Malaysian nation as a whole was just cosmetic and that in the final analysis, despite calling itself an Islamist party, it is simply a Malay party concerned about Malay issues and promoting Malay interests. How can PAS ever hope to recover the goodwill of the non-Malay and non-Muslim voters who voted for them, should PAS lose their trust?

It is also ironic that PAS is being courted by its arch-nemesis UMNO, when we consider the simple historical fact that it was UMNO that has been demonising PAS all along. Have we forgotten the clashes of the mid-1980s, like the Memali incident (leading to the killing of PAS leader Ibrahim Libya and his followers), Operation Kenari (that led to arrests of PAS members and the accusation of PAS harbouring militants), the KMM and al-Maunah incidents when PAS was again accused of having links with terrorist groups? So is this new Hadari version of UMNO now about to cut a deal with the very same PAS that they have been accusing of being militant and radical; and if so, what will this do to the image of the Malaysian government if and when it has this very same ‘militant’ PAS in its company?

Which brings us to the last point: For more than three decades now the Islamisation race between UMNO and PAS has witnessed UMNO’s sustained attack on PAS as a party that is cast as fundamentalist, reactionary, militant and dangerous. Now as a result of the poor showing of the BN at the March 2008 elections, UMNO is doing another volte-face and courting PAS in the name of Malay racial and communal solidarity. But throughout this period (1980-2008) it was UMNO that cast itself in the international arena as the ‘good’ Muslims and PAS as the ‘bad’ Muslims.

The current establishment has even gone as far as broadcasting to the world that UMNO’s brand of Hadari Islam is the correct, moderate and modern Islam to be emulated, juxtaposed to PAS’s Islam which is painted in Taliban-esque colours. To bring PAS that has been so vilified into the BN coalition would certainly raise eyebrows the world over and give cause for foreign governments and investors to think twice: Who was lying then, UMNO or PAS? Was UMNO wrong to cast PAS in a negative light? Or has UMNO now endorsed PAS’s version of Islam that it once decried as being fundamentalist and militant? Either way, the image of Malaysia and the Malaysian government is at stake at a time when the world is already watching Malaysia closely as a result of the repeat of the sodomy allegations against Anwar.

All of this points to the picture of a weak government that has lost its politcal bearings and compass. UMNO’s courting of PAS (and vice-versa) reminds us that racial considerations come before all else in Malaysia still, and that despite the attempts to turn PAS into a truly Islamic party that transcends race and communal politics, there remain pockets of ethno-nationalist sympathy in that party.

One can only hope for the sake of Malaysia, and Malaysia’s weak but slowly emerging democracy, that the modern progressive voices in PAS will prevail to scuttle this dubious round of backroom negotiations.

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  1. #1 by ADAM YONG IBNI ABDULLAH on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 4:08 pm

    tangwengheng makes good sense.

    kit siang and karpal singh were both opposition lions booted out of the parliament with the barisan alternatif. hope yb lim remembers. and yb lim is not surrounded by advisors that he will ever be the deputy pm of malaysia. it will never happen in his life time or mine.

    i suggest that kit siang, tok guru nik aziz and anwar ibrahim settle their house first before even talking about ruling the federal government. this hype of taking over the governing of malaysia by september is poor strategy, when secret talks were held . damage done. i am suspicious and so are many raayat.

    if we truly advocate bangsa malaysia, as i mentioned earlier which was being moderated, there was no need for secret talk.but alas, anwar too had secret talk with yong teck lee of sapp. this is bad for the nation and indeed bad for good governance.

    there are five states that are under PR rule , but there is no synergy in them at all. the mb of kedah wants to cut down all trees as a threat for federal funds without considering the state of penang water supply. talk about unity and cooperation.!!!

    a bird in hand is better than two in the tree. hope kit siang remembers this and remember well.

    1. dap needs rebranding. go on a membership drive for more malays and indians.

    2. dont play second fiddle to party keadilan. otherwise dap is like mca or gerakan.

    3. get pas to understand the constitution , and stop this fanatic taliban idea on skirts and singers and concerts.

    believe that when tok guru nik aziz is not around, there will be a split in pas. i know hadi. i know how he loves glamour. i know how he travels with bodyguards n entourage. make a trip to trengganu and ask the locals.

  2. #2 by ADAM YONG IBNI ABDULLAH on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 4:12 pm

    yb lim,

    are you surrounded by advisors that failed to remind you of 1999?

  3. #3 by sudokuku on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 4:12 pm

    This remind me of transformer!,
    The UMNO transformer team – ” more than meet the eye”.

    with hollywood magic they can transform to became the hero that you want and the next minute transform back to devil.

    come on lah UMNO, we are not kids anymore, cukup lah dah korek 50 tahun, poket sudah penuh, crony sudah melimpah, apalagi mau.

  4. #4 by ADAM YONG IBNI ABDULLAH on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 4:14 pm

    tell us raayat what has PR done during the last five months and NOTwhat BN had done for the last 50 years. PR is breaking up.

    hope yb lim, your advisors are telling you the grassroot truth.

  5. #5 by ADAM YONG IBNI ABDULLAH on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 4:16 pm

    sudokuku.

    greed can never be satisfied.

  6. #6 by sjchange on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 4:46 pm

    Quote:

    “Umno sekarang sudah lemas dan dia nak minta tolong PAS, sedangkan PAS sendiri bekerja keras untuk melemaskan Umno.

    Tetapi apabila Umno lemas sekarang, kita nak angkat dia balik, itu BUKAN kerja kita.

    Biar lemaslah dia, dah 50 tahun kita lawan Umno, bila dia lemas kita LANYAK dia…sepatutnya begitu.

    Saya setuju benar biar Umno jadi pembangkang bukan sahaja di Kelantan, tetapi di seluruh negara termasuk di peringkat pusat.

    Kita nak jaga Islam, jaga Umno apa yang akan kita dapat. Umno ni sebenarnya parti yang melonggarkan iman.

    Orang Melayu selama ini longgar kerana Umno.

    Tetapi kalau PAS nak jaga Islam, BUKAN caranya untuk PAS bekerjasama dengan Umno. …”
    -Tok Guru Dato Nik Abdul Aziz Nik Mat
    Mursyidul Am PAS/Menteri Besar Kelantan

  7. #7 by zak_hammaad on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 6:18 pm

    Inshaa All?h is an Arabic term evoked to indicate hope for an aforementioned event to occur in the future. The phrase translates into English as “God willing” or “If it is God’s will”.

    The term is also related to another Arabic term, Maasha All?h which means “God has willed it”.

    This word is often used to indicate a desire to do something that you wish may occur. This also provides God’s blessing on what you are about to do. For example, if you want to do something, in particular if you know that it is very hard to achieve, you invoke God’s blessing before it occurs or before you set out to do it.

    Usage of Insha’Allah is derived from Islamic scripture (in Qur’an 18:24): “And never say of anything, ‘I shall do such and such thing tomorrow. Except (with the saying): ‘If God wills!’ And remember your lord when you forget…”

    Usage of this word is a proclamation of God’s Lordship over all matters and for a Muslim, reaffirms Worship in the unique monotheistic sense.

  8. #8 by ADAM YONG IBNI ABDULLAH on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 6:34 pm

    dear zak_hammaad,

    if i know that i will be offered a bribe of rm50,000.00 tomorrow, i will not and should not invoked ” God’s will “. you know it is a sin.

    the teaching of qada and qadar do not also gives us an excuse that it is so written therefore i have sinned.

    the secret meeting of pas and umno is certainly mans’ greed of power and position, nothing to do with God’s will.

    thank you.

  9. #9 by kosong on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 6:35 pm

    Don’t use the name of God here and there lah..especially in politics where it has no meaning.

    Politicians are the scum of the earth. In fact, Malaysia is one of the those countries where you cannot make a distinction between scum and scumbag.

    Polis = corrupt scum

    Judges = corrupt puppets

    Politicians = corrupt thiefs, liars and fools

    Criminals = scum

    So no difference between any of the above. God will surely make all the above pay. So what can you expect from PAS? Politicians who are again scum…money talks lah. Malaysia a land of no morals. God will ensure Malaysia will pay for her sins.

  10. #10 by Hishamuddin on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 6:40 pm

    Dear YB Lim,
    Pakatan Goverment is talking on the formation of the Federal Goverment soon and yet I have the feeling that the group is yet ready.

    After the GE, the rakyat expect the formation of a shadow cabinet while waiting for the formation of the Goverment. Now when ever there is any matter, all the talk is by YB Lim, Anwar and the top leaders of the Pakatan only. Why not the other supopose to be shadow cabinet Ministers ?

    Everything will still be YB Lim, YB LIm n YB Lim.

    I feel it is time we need to train the others up and get them ready for the big day. Unless the rakyat see such professionalism in PR, I feel we are not yet there.

  11. #11 by ADAM YONG IBNI ABDULLAH on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 6:47 pm

    i have just texted omar about his racist remark, i am awaiting his reply.

    yb, my sincere request that pr have a proper agenda and guided rules . maybe only one spokeperson for the whole pr, rather than each having a say in the media . raayat are confused.

    judiciary reform is forgotten.
    police reform is forgotten.
    pkftz scandal is forgotten.
    aps scandal is forgotten.
    exco asset declaration is forgotten.
    lingam and company is forgotten. yet to know about bar counsel action.
    the poor are getting poorer.
    inflation soars to official 7.7%. unofficial maybe 15%.
    mb of trengganu dont give hoots to the pm.

    we are busy with sodomy and crossover.
    and the premier in waiting.

  12. #12 by ADAM YONG IBNI ABDULLAH on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 6:54 pm

    i certainly agreed with kosong and hishamuddin.

    sudah lah.

    shadow cabinet is not formed because they have not seen the light. without light , you cannot have shadow.

  13. #13 by taiking on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 6:58 pm

    I think we should not despair.
    PAS has every right to do what it pleases.
    We believe in freedom and basic right.
    Dont we?
    So we should uphold our belief.
    There is no need to stop them.
    No need to be upset.
    Instead, let’s weigh our strength (i.e. PR’s strength) without PAS.
    Start with the question, can PAS command the support of all malaysians?
    This question need not be answered. Its obvious.
    Non-malays would reject them right away.
    Not all malays would not embrace them either.
    Not city folks anyway.
    Not those with money.
    Now, next question.
    Can UMNO command the support of all malaysians?
    Its pretty obvious too.
    Badawi, Najib, Khairy, Md. Tyson, Kerisman, Dr.M’s son, Razaleigh – none of them has anything to show really.
    The party is very weak.
    However, it can still command enough support to form the government because of fear for change by some voters and vested interests.
    Support that is based on factors like these are usually not dependable and outright unpredictable.
    So in conclusion, UMNO may be in control but in reality, it may be swept off the ground quite easily.
    Finally, can PR (DAP+KeAdilan) do the job? Sweep UMNO without the help of PAS?
    DAP is stable and strong after all these years.
    It has got its core of supporters.
    KeAdilan is not stable and its long term strength has not been tested.
    At the moment, KeAdilan is anwar. Anwar is KeAdilan.
    KeAdilan is popular because of Anwar.
    That is why they decided to repeat the sodomy accusation again.
    Fortunately, KeAdilan is a multi-racial party.
    And fortunately, MCA and MIC and Gerakan have gone under.
    And Sabahans are one big load of uncertainty in UMNO’s heavy bag.
    That more or less balance things up a little.
    So how do we move from here?
    Penang, rule it properly. Show results.
    Selangor, govern properly. Show results.
    Perak, govern properly. Show results.
    MPs’ make a big show in Parliament.
    Let voters see that opposition MPs can work and make a difference.
    Old habits die hard.
    UMNO will continue to be corrupt and unproductive and inefficient.
    Look, 14 new mercs for 3+ million just 5 months after election and in this economic climate! That is classic.
    UMNO is on the way downhill certainly.
    That by the way is unstopable.
    Look at the Phillipines and Indonesia. Look at history. Great empires, great nations. Great dynasties.
    They all face the same fate.
    When the downhill machinery starts rolling, there is no stopping until the path downhill is fully covered.
    PR must go uphill. That is important.
    Persevere. Do not lose sight of objectives.
    That way by next election, the difference would be felt and could be translated into a shift of power.

  14. #14 by lakilompat on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 7:01 pm

    Penang update:-

    “GEORGE TOWN: Take a 10% pay cut if Pakatan Rakyat is serious about helping the rakyat – that was Datuk Roslan Saidin’s (BN- Pinang Tunggal) message to Chief Minister Lim Guan Eng.”

    Is Datuk Roslan Saidin high on cocaine, Federal BN govt. already cut 80% RM 4.7 Billion Penang funds, now what can the 10% pay cut can do to help? why not ask Federal cut by 40% instead of 80% this Malay Datuk is very stupid, i will give him a kick if i see him on Penang road.

  15. #15 by Loh on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 7:37 pm

    What is Malay unity? What do PAS and UMNO hope to achieve through Malay unity?

    If Malay unity is for cooperating among human beings classified as Malays to lead an honest live, then that unity can be extended to include everybody else.

    If Malay unity is intended to obtain more seats and larger majority in the parliament and state assemblies, so that together they are able to bury and suppress people not classified as Malays, then it is a threat to the security of the country.

    PM AAB owes the country an explanation on his concept of Malay unity under which he inititated discussion with PAS to forge Malay unity.

  16. #16 by zak_hammaad on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 7:47 pm

    ADAM YONG, I do not disagree with you about that. However, the “secret meeting” of pas and umno is not really a secret is it?

    If the BN dropped racial politicking from it’s agends, this would be better for the country. but it has gone beyond that. It is very plausible that the opposition show how they work (for example Penang). I think gradually a lot of Malaysians are coming around to see this in non-racial politics in practise. The BN of today is a hodge-podge of incompetent and clueless leaders and it will take a fresh approach from the younger and more dynamic people to lead.

    I very much like the Singapore model of government where the most competent people are given positions of responsibility. I agree that there is nepotism to a little extent, but the funny thing is that Malaysia also practises nepotism but with negative results :^) This is because they do NOT put the best people in charge of the most responsible roles.

    It may be that BN no longer has people with leader qualities, and this is where the opposition can capitalise. If they can show a successful working model of alternative governship, political change may be coming sooner than you think. However, to try and separate Islam for politics is suicide because there are equal number of people who are anti-secular as there are pro-secular.

    As for Malaysian-Malay, Malaysian-Chinese, Malaysian-Indian; this is a fact of most nation states. In Singapore, you are identified by your race and in Britain, you are identified by your race (i.e. British Asian); this is not the problem. The problem is when these categorisations lead to discrimination, this is why we have to fight.

    I also know that in Britain there is a proposal for “positive discrimination” for the minorities! If an employer got 2 applications, they would be forced to choose the minority application over white. Clearly this is being frowned upon by the white majority as racism. Where do you draw the balance between social justice and national stability?

  17. #17 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 7:49 pm

    blablowbla Says:

    Today at 09: 29.12 (10 hours ago)
    dear politicians…God is God,evil is evil…”

    Don’t you know that the Devil is one of God’s fallen angels??

    If God is God and Evil is Evil, then why are there soldiers armed to
    their teeth chasing after bearded and turbaned gun totting scraggly looking half starved people who merely wanted to be free to grow poppies so they could feed their families? Why are there the same half starved looking, disease ridden, desperate looking people eager for the promise of 72 virgins, blowing themselves in whichever way they know how?

    If Conscience is God’s presence in us, then why do some of us fly airplanes into tall buildings to make their point??

  18. #18 by ADAM YONG IBNI ABDULLAH on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 7:56 pm

    lucifer was the creation of GOD.
    and so is adam.

    undergrad2- you are absolutely right.

  19. #19 by isahbiazhar on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 8:32 pm

    Umno approached Pas out of desperation and has nothing to do with race.Toyo was bold enough to sell Umno to Pas just to gain face.He had already planned as to how to topple the government at a future date.He got the idea from Mahathir.But Nik Aziz knew the plan well and told the new leaders that PAS does not want to become one election party.It wants permanency and that means work for those non muslims who had voted for you.New young Pas turks should not be excited fast because once subsided the truth will come out.PKR is the initial solution before a unifying party comes about.

  20. #20 by KennyGan on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 8:34 pm

    But the worse did not happen and PAS is still with PR. Can we look at it in a different light and say PAS was tempted by the devil and passed the test?

    I think PAS may emerge stronger after this with the young impatient elements in PAS given a whack and put in their place.

    Meanwhile, MCA is also not gaining from this. They have always flogged DAP in front of the Chinese community for working with PAS but now they seem strangely silent when Umno talks to PAS in a deal which would have sidelined the non-Malays.

    How do you think MCA is appearing in the eyes of the Chinese now?

  21. #21 by badak on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 8:44 pm

    With UMNO being the the “” BIG BOSS ”’ in BN the other component parties don,t even dare open their mouth when HAMSATMUDIN RAISED the kriss to threaten the non MALAYS.
    When SOTHI MIC stood up to speak on behalf of the INDIANS he was thrown out for 6 mts,NO MIC leaders stood up for him.When the MIC guy from MIC stood up to speak up on the HINDRAFF cause.. He was ask to apoligize by UMNO YOUTH.
    When the MCA and GERAKAN YBs from PENANG did not vote for PDRR in the PENANG STATE ASSEMBLY they were suspended for 3 mts.

    Now if PAS joint,s BN. The non MALAYS will lose even more of its rights….

  22. #22 by zak_hammaad on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 9:04 pm

    undergrad2, I think this thread is beginning to take on an Islamophobc tone; please remain perspective.

    >> Don’t you know that the Devil is one of God’s fallen angels??

    In Islam, Iblees was not an angel nor a fallen one for that matter. He was a creation from amongst the jinn. The Qur’an states: “… So they prostrated themselves except Iblees (Satan). He was one of the jinn; he disobeyed the Command of his Lord…” [translation of 18:50]

    The rest of your post carries statements and not questions. You appear to ask questions which are implied statements; that is a misnomer. If I were to ask you: “Is your brother out of prison?” – This is a question that implies a statement that your brother is in prison. You will neither be able to give me a ‘yes’ or a ‘no’ answer to this example :^)

    In 1941 Hitler told one of his generals: “I am now, as before, a Catholic and will always remain so.” And he was never ex-communicated from the Church. Would you now blame Catholicism for all the bloodletting of the Nazis? I don’t think so; likewise you should be just and objective enough to judge a faith by it’s sources and not those who claim to be adherents thereof.

    “Do people think that they will be left alone because they say: ‘We have faith’, and will not be tested? And We indeed tested those who were before them. And Allah will certainly make known, those who are true, and will certainly make known those who are liars.” [translation of 29:1-3]

    “It is He Who has created death and life that He might test you which of you is best in deed.” [translation of 67:2]

    “And if Allah did not check one set of people by means of another, the earth would indeed be full of mischief: But Allah is full of bounty to all the worlds.” [translation of 2:251]

    Hence, trials and tribulations we are witnessing in the world is but a test of faith and patience. There will be extremists on all sides, but the cure for ignorance as ever, remains knowledge.

  23. #23 by bukanbumi on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 9:21 pm

    # cemerlang Says:
    Today at 06: 57.29 (14 hours ago)
    Wow ! Malaysia is so full of Allah.
    ============================

    And also full of “allah-mak!”

  24. #24 by badak on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 9:23 pm

    Undergrad2 Please let me answer on your behalf. YES MY BROTHER JUST CAME OUT OF PRISON..HE JUST QUIT MCA AND JOIN DAP.Because MCA and all the other component parties in BN are prisoners and UMNO is the SADISTIC WARDEN.

  25. #25 by dawsheng on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 9:25 pm

    “shadow cabinet is not formed because they have not seen the light. without light , you cannot have shadow.”

    In a way, you are right. But what is the point of shadow cabinet at this turbulence moment? Just relax.

    When Pakatan Rakyat formed the government, ministers will have to face very high expectations Rakyat, if not up to the job, they have to resign immediately. I have Uncle Kit’s words for this.

  26. #26 by kerajaan.rakyat on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 9:32 pm

    Dear YB Lim and all readers,

    What is importance is not whether one is a Malay or Muslims.
    Much far importance is whether one is honest to others.

    Whether you are a Malay, Chinese, India or others, if you’re wrong doer – you’re fire. Period.

    I am a Malay but not just for Malays, I am for all.
    I am a Muslim but not just for Muslims, for all.

    http://www.kerajaanrakyat.com/

  27. #27 by dawsheng on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 9:34 pm

    “Where do you draw the balance between social justice and national stability?”

    You don’t draw anything. Social justice and national stability, you can’t have one without the other.

  28. #28 by gundam on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 9:36 pm

    “There will be extremists on all sides, but the cure for ignorance as ever, remains knowledge.”

    the cure for ignorance is wisdom.

  29. #29 by dawsheng on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 9:40 pm

    “In 1941 Hitler told one of his generals: “I am now, as before, a Catholic and will always remain so.” And he was never ex-communicated from the Church. Would you now blame Catholicism for all the bloodletting of the Nazis? I don’t think so; likewise you should be just and objective enough to judge a faith by it’s sources and not those who claim to be adherents thereof.”

    That’s why they have the church out of politics and government. I think we should too.

  30. #30 by zak_hammaad on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 9:41 pm

    dawsheng, LKY would highly disagree with you and so would every other country that remains in the clutches of civil strife.

  31. #31 by Anba on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 9:57 pm

    Dear Malaysians,
    The UMNO/PAS secret meetings makes one wonder the truth behind the meetings. I am of the opinion that there could be 2 reasons:
    1. The Malays ( PAS and UMNO ) begin to realize that the Malay unity is in jeopardy in the wake of Anuar’s rise once again. They want to get together to unite the Malays from further destruction.

    2. The second reason may be offensive but I have to share it anyway. Let me ask the question : Which is more important for the Malays, being true to their religion or compromising their religious differences for the sake of continuing to keep the Malay privleges? I’m asking this question because PAS and UMNO have differences in the way they approach Islam.
    From Wikipedia, ” PAS positions itself as a political party that aims to establish Malaysia as a country based on Islamic legal theory derived from the primary sources of Islam, the Quran, Sunnah as well as Hadiths, as opposed to Barisan Nasional’s Islam Hadhari, which PAS sees as based on a watered-down understanding of Islam”.

    Thus, we can ask the question whether PAS stoop low to the ” watered-down” understanding of Islam as practiced by UMNO OR UMNO upgrade their ‘watered-down’ understanding of Islam to meet PAS eye to eye.

    Any takers for any answers?

    May truth and justice set us free.

    God bless.
    Anba

  32. #32 by zak_hammaad on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 10:01 pm

    dawsheng, I do not want to counter each point that you make, it should suffice that my general and broad postings reflect the demographic reality of Malaysia.

    Secularism may be accepted in a Christian society but it can never enjoy a general acceptance in an Islamic society. Please feel free to consult the following sites for more info on this topic:

    http://www.islamtoday.com/book/I_secular/Islam%20and%20Secularism%20_proofread_.pdf

    http://www.islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=116

    http://www.islamicweb.com/beliefs/cults/Secularism.htm

  33. #33 by dawsheng on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 10:05 pm

    Who gets insulted the most from the Muzakarah between PAS and UMNO if not god?

  34. #34 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 10:28 pm

    Zak_hammad,

    May we have your response to what is written in the Quranic “Genesis” within the context of your earlier comments about “Iblis”.

    “As per the Qur’an, before the creation of Man, God (Arabic: Allah) created the Angels (which were made from light) — which had no free will — and the Jinn (from the smokeless fire).

    Later when God created Adam from clay, He ordered the beings in His presence to prostrate to Adam. All the angels did so yet the Jinn Iblis (English: Lucifer ) did not. Iblis was proud and considered himself superior to Adam, since Adam was made from clay and he was created from smokeless fire. For this act of disobedience, God damned him to hell for eternity, but gave him respite till the Day of Judgment at his request. Iblis obtained permission from God that he would use this time to lead all men astray to burn in hell.
    After their creation, Adam and Eve were allowed to dwell freely in al-Jannah Paradise, but God forbade them to go near a tree. According to the Qur’an, Iblis tricked Adam and Hawwa’ into eating a fruit from the tree. God then expelled all of them from Heaven and onto Earth, to wander about, as a punishment. Then Adam sought to repent to God, and God taught him the words by which to do so. God forgave Adam and Hawa and told them “Get ye down all from here; and if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (Qur’?n 2:38).” Iblis will try to influence as many of their descendants as he possibly could into sin, so as to be his companions in his final destiny into Hell.

    Thus Muslims consider Satan or Iblis, the greatest enemy and a test towards mankind, the result of which will determine one’s fate in the hereafter (Paradise or Hell)”

    So there you are! Satan is one of the fallen angels.

  35. #35 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 10:33 pm

    It is matter of semantics whether Satan is actually ‘one of the fallen angels’ or the so-called Jinn who refused to prostrate himself before the sons of God.

  36. #36 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 10:46 pm

    Well maybe it is not a matter of semantics but they were creations of God before He created Adam and Eve.

  37. #37 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 10:51 pm

    As if to add to the confusion, the ‘sons of God’ were the result of the sinful mixing of humanity with angels: (Genesis 6:1-4)

  38. #38 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 10:58 pm

    Ask limkamput! He is a cross between an Ayatollah and Pope Benedict.

  39. #39 by shamshul anuar on Thursday, 24 July 2008 - 11:24 pm

    Dear Mahfuz and Farish,

    I refer to statements by both of you with regards to meeting between UMNO and PAS leaders.

    I hope you understand that despite your misgiving about these meetings, such meetings actually are very much appreciated and welcomed by the Malay community.

    PAS and UMNO both represent the Malay community. Both canclaim to speak on behalf of the Malays. I hope Mahfuz, jugding from your remarks, can exhibit a hallmark of a good Muslim” that is not to have an illconceived ideas about UMNO .

    You claimed that UMNO resulted in Malays in Penang becoming dungu. I am not so sure about that. UMNO, like PAS may not be perfect. But surely it also delivers to Malays and in fact to Malaysians.

    If that is not the case, why now suddenly PAS becoming ally to DAP . It is easy preaching that it is sinful to elect non Muslim as your reprensentative when you are in Kelantan when almosdt 90% population is Muslim. But in Perak oe Kedah when non Muslim forms sizable percentage, practicality means you have to include them.

    So after years of “maki hamun” of which I listened from my own ears , finally PAS actually following UMNO’s practice of having non Malay based political party as its ally. So, meaning you accept that some of UMNO’s practice is good.

    With ease, you have a coalition with DAP, resulting you having a Menteri Besar in Perak but the real power is DAP( with its 6 excos). Surely, it is hallmark of a magnaminity to accept “muzakarah” with UMNO.

    AS much as you warn PAS to be careful about any talk with UMNO, I also want PAS to be careful about its alliance with DAP. AS for Farish, from my observation and conversation with PAS members, i notice they all turn red faces when I reminded them on many occasions PAS leaders blasted UMNO for alliance with MCA, MIC.

    The truth is that many PAS members are not comfortable with PAS alliance with DAP. Contrary to what you said, PAS enhances its image if it is willing to talk to UMNO.

    GEt rid of ego; be it PAS or UMNO. Surely Mahduz ans Farish can understand that UMNO won in 79 seats. Its sway in Malay community is comparable if not greater to that of PAS. Meaning PAS or anybody must understand that UMNO also can claim to represent Malay community.

    By the way, this is for PAS. I am sure that Mahfuz is aware that
    10 years ago, Muhammad Sabu condemned Anwar as being honosexual and challenged Dr Mahathir to sack Anwar. It was published by Harakah itself.

    What is your comment now? Why the silence in PAS with regardss to Dr Mahathir’s sacking of Anwar by entire PAS members. Why sup[ported Anwar then and now.

    BE honest to yourselves, Mahfuz. Do not lie.

  40. #40 by limkamput on Friday, 25 July 2008 - 12:32 am

    If Conscience is God’s presence in us, then why do some of us fly airplanes into tall buildings to make their point?? undergrad2

    Becasue we have best of both worlds hypocrite like you around, got it?

  41. #41 by undergrad2 on Friday, 25 July 2008 - 12:38 am

    Limkamput,

    Kathy must have forgotten to give you your medications again!!

  42. #42 by TheWrathOfGrapes on Friday, 25 July 2008 - 9:46 am

    Boys – please debate the topic and the points raised, rather than resort to puerile ad hominem attacks.

    :(

  43. #43 by Bigjoe on Friday, 25 July 2008 - 10:05 am

    The reality is that PAS has a right to fight for Islamic country if it wants to. Although I have seen personally how religo-state mess up again and again, I still believe this is so.

    However, this is not about the right to fight for Islamic state. This is about the process for fighting for it. Is PAS going to chose the Machiavellian way or will it choose transparency and accountability. What is most despicable about those in PAS that talked with UMNO and what Nik Aziz allude to is the Machiavellian way, the Dr. M way of lying to everyone.

    While its impossible to completely stick to transparent, honest and accountable way in politics, the way forward for Malaysia is turn away from the Machiavellian way as much as possible. If PAS wishes to work with UMNO at some point, it has to be honest with its PR partners and hence loses the right for PR partner to completely trust PAS completely. PAS people cannot complain they are NOT trusted by their partners in PR. For example in Perak, they are given the PR but unhappy that exco is not majority Malay. It clearly justify it. In Selangor, its clear that having DAP being Deputy CM is the honest choice which is yet to be fufilled.

    This is about how we go foward, not about the end itself which is being debated. If we chose the end justify the ends no matter what, lets just bring back Dr. M as our ‘great’ leader…

  44. #44 by taiking on Friday, 25 July 2008 - 11:33 am

    Is there a need to unify the malays?

    This question will lead one to the next question:

    Is there a split amongst them?

    And on to the next question – the root question:

    What caused the split?

    Talk of unity would yeild no positive results if the cause of the split is not addressed.

    But then addressing the cause of the split would split UMNO up.

    Why? you might ask.

    Its all about UMNO, and UMNO’s failed policies.

    But UMNO cant split up – cant shoot its own foot.

    That is a strict NO. NO.

    Well then leave the reason for malay disunity aside.

    And for appearance sake, lets continue talking about malay unity.

    If talking is not enough give out sweets.

    Make a big show of it.

    Then bash PR. Bash Anwar. Bash non-malays.

    Anything that can stoke up the sentiments of malays.

    Will it work?

    Look at the malays in this blogsite.

    They as a race were bashed about here.

    They took them quite well – very well in fact.

    They were not emotional.

    They responded rationally.

    That’s cool man. If you ask me.

    Are they representative of the malays up and down the country?

    In cities and towns yes.

    In kampungs? I dont know.

    My judtment: UMNO will not be successful in its effot to unify the malays; at best limited success.

  45. #45 by Patek 1472 on Friday, 25 July 2008 - 11:37 am

    17. The next PM of Malaysia will follow R.A.H.M.A.N theory. (Fact).
    17. Perdana Menteri Malaysia yang berikutnya akan mengikuti teori R.A.H.M.A.N (Fakta).

    Quatrain 17

    In the month of summer games
    When leaders are chosen and thrown away
    Man starts to think again
    Power, Gold and Glory to gain

    Problems to glory are but hindrances
    To be solve is such a simple game
    Sleeping partner is to be cast away
    Expendable are those as such before

    http://Patek1472.wordpress.com

  46. #46 by i_love_malaysia on Friday, 25 July 2008 - 11:40 am

    PAS is a cheater and unfaithful to other PR components. PAS should be sacked from PR long ago for its unfaithful behaviour. PAS is checking out with BN UMNO to see and evaluate what goodies that it will get by joining BN or UMNO, by doing so i.e. just like trying out with other women and see whether there’re compatible even while they are still married, it is already showing its true colours!!! PR should call an EGM to question PAS unfaithful behaviour and ask PAS why action should not be taken against it!!!

  47. #47 by i_love_malaysia on Friday, 25 July 2008 - 11:58 am

    17. The next PM of Malaysia will follow R.A.H.M.A.N theory. (Fact).
    17. Perdana Menteri Malaysia yang berikutnya akan mengikuti teori R.A.H.M.A.N (Fakta). -Patek 1472
    —————————
    N can be Ng Yen Yen!!!

  48. #48 by shadow on Friday, 25 July 2008 - 12:56 pm

    I’m not a politician but an observer. The three meetings bet. PAS and UMNO were an eyewash. The BN is desperate to break off the PR coalition. They really fear that the PR is going to take over the govt. as mentioned. So they are doing everything possible to achieve what they’ve planned. But somehow they’re failing. The sodomy alligations and the PAS-UMNO meetings appears faulty. As the spiritual leader of PAS warned some of the socalled PAS leaders not to be bitten by the snake again. Its my opinion that PAS will be doomed forever if they join BN again. Its my sincere advice to them that OPEN your eyes widely when you are discussing any matters with UMNO leaders. Until they prove their honesty, you don’t believe them. God bless the good people.

  49. #49 by ADAM YONG IBNI ABDULLAH on Friday, 25 July 2008 - 1:18 pm

    dear undergrad2 and limkamput.

    you two are great guys and i personally read much of your postings and i just hope whatever you had between both great and good guys can be buried.

    seriously, with no offence to others ( my apology ) , jeffrey qc , godfather ,dawsheng, another lawyer cto, undergrad2 ,limkamput have been very consistent on inputs that are beneficial to kit siang.

    even wrathofgrapes and i_love_ malaysia are all senior to me in this blog of yb lim.

    with due respect to limkamput , i dont think undergrad2 is an arrogant person with regards to your opinions and similarly, limkamput had always called a spade a spade. this is what kit siang needs. serious advisors on this blog.

    we should join force to kick out people like killer aka realworld who are a farce.

    with due respect to undergrad2, i think limkamput made lots of effort and research before posting.

    i was away, and it is sad to read you two great guys after each others’ neck. unless otherwise it was meant to provide the rest of us a nice “crack”.

    hope we bury the hatchet. ok mate.

    next month , we will be celebrating “Merdeka”, and i am feeling very negative about the celebration. what is there to celebrate when the raayat are suffering from high inflation and high interest rate.

  50. #50 by ADAM YONG IBNI ABDULLAH on Friday, 25 July 2008 - 1:21 pm

    dear i_love_malaysia.

    The next Prime Minister of Malaysia can be Nik Aziz.

Comments are closed.