PAS, Don’t fall for UMNO’s Trap!


By Farish A. Noor

Civil society, and the actors who occupy that public domain, exists for a number of reasons and one of the reasons is to keep all politicians and political parties in check. It would appear that the work of civil society actors in Malaysia today has been cut out thanks to the murky goings-on within and between the political parties of Malaysia on both sides of the political fence.

Hardly three months have passed since the landmark results of the 8th March Federal elections and already we see Malaysia transformed as never before: Despite winning 79 Parliamentary seats the UMNO party that has been in power for more than half a century is showing signs of internal division and fragmenting before our very eyes; bringing with its collapse the very real possibility of change in the mindset of millions of ordinary Malaysian citizens who were told for so long that the sun of the Barisan Nasional would never set. Well, with BN MPs running helter-skelter in all directions at the moment, it would appear as if that claim is about to be tested in no uncertain terms.

What is worrying, however, is the fact that the Pakatan Rakyat coalition is still in its infant stages and does not have the luxury of time on its side. Should the BN government fall, and that prospect seems more likely by the day, the PR should be ready to assume office at a moment’s notice. This can only be done if and when the PR gets its act together and all component parties of the PR agree once and for all that they will abide by the terms they had set for themselves; which includes the PR manifesto and the standards of the People’s Declaration which they had all assented to.

Now the problem that faces the PR is that for too long the component parties have grown accustomed to their own version of narrow communitarian based politics, identifying specific and exclusive racial and religious communities as their target constituencies and primary vote base. What is even more worrying is the tendency for some of the leaders of the PR component parties to continue operating on the basis of the idea that their primary political constituency has remained unchanged; thereby making the fatal assumption that the Malaysian public and the Malaysian electorate hasn’t evolved over the years. Now the last time a right-wing politician worked on such a silly assumption he did something even sillier: namely take out a keris in public and started waffling about racial dominance and the special status of his ethnic-religious constituency. And see what happened: the same politician’s party was thumped at the polls and lost every single Malay-majority urban seat on the West coast, thereby proving that the Malays were no longer susceptible to this sort of juvenile antics and emotional manipulation. Padan Muka.

Looking at the Pakatan Rakyat coalition today, we sadly see rather similar tactics being used by some leaders of the PR, and in particular by some of the leaders of PAS. First came the claim that the PR in Selangor should start ‘Islamising’ the public space of Selangor and promoting faith and piety among the Muslims of the state, which begs the question: Since when did the PR become a missionary pietist movement and who said that PAS leaders of the PR in Selangor were voted to become our religious mentors and moral guardians?

Now it would appear that there have been calls by some of the leaders of the Youth Wing of PAS for the PR to start Islamising the five states whose assemblies are under the control of the PR, with Kelantan to serve as the model.

Now let us repeat this again for the umpteenth time: The vote for the PR at the recent elections was not a vote for an Islamic state, or an endorsement for any kind of communitarian or sectarian politics, be it on religious or ethnic grounds. The Malaysian public – who remain the real power brokers in Malaysia today – have signalled their utter disgust and frustration with the slow pace of reform that was meant to be the starting point of the Badawi administration but which ended with pointless projects such as an Islamic theme park and crystal mosque instead.

Nor is there any indication that the Muslims of Malaysia have called for any form of theocratic governance in the country, for their rejection of the state’s Islam Hadari project may actually suggest that many of them are fed up with the politicisation of religion by this stage.

So when is PAS – or rather some of the more vocal and hot-headed leaders of PAS – going to realise that for it to become a truly national party with national ambitions, it has to adapt to the reality of a plural, multicultural and multireligious Malaysia where there are not only differences between Muslims and non-Muslims, but also – crucially – differences among Muslims as well? Who and what gave these PAS leaders the licence to assume that all Muslims in Malaysia want an Islamic state, and more importantly their version of an Islamic state? What on earth makes them think that the rest of Malaysia wants to be like Kelantan?

Whenever any leader or any party in the PR makes demands like these, it goes against the collective spirit of the PR, narrows the universalist scope of the PR manifesto and betrays the spirit of the People’s Declaration – which, need we remind them, they all signed and agreed to. The negative consequences of such unilateralism are manifold, and can be summed up thus:

Firstly, it reinforces the BN’s claim that the PR is at best an instrumental coalition that will break apart because there will never be any real compromise and co-operation between PAS and the other parties;

Secondly, it sends shivers down the spines of many non-Muslim Malaysians who – for better or worse – have their own misgivings about the idea of any religious state (Islamic or otherwise) in what they hope to see evolve into a secular, democratic, free and equal Malaysia;

Thirdly, it also alienates Malaysian Muslims who – this writer included – also have deep misgivings about the abuse of religion for political ends and who do not want to live in an Islamic state where our personal lives, private space and right of speech and thought on religious matters are decided by Islamist politicians from a party we are not even members of;

Fourthly, it will provide ample materiel for Malaysia-bashers who would jump at the opportunity to rubbish the PR government (if it comes to power) and to make outlandish claims that Malaysia has fallen under the heels of PAS and is about to be transformed into some Iranian-like theocracy;

Fifth, – and perhaps this is the most dangerous consequence of all – such unilateral moves on the part of this handful of PAS leaders will pave the way for UMNO to open its doors to PAS, and to invite PAS to abandon the PR and opt for joining the BN instead, ostensibly for the sake of ensuring Malay-Muslim unity, and more importantly Malay-Muslim dominance.

Now of all the worst-case scenarios to contemplate, this is the most worrisome. During the election campaign of March 2008, UMNO’s posters in Trengganu were already paving the way for a PAS cross-over to the BN, with slogans like ‘If you want to really promote Islam, then join the BN/UMNO’. Since March there has been speculation about PAS leaders who have been in negotiations with UMNO, a fact that some of them have admitted; and talk about a PAS hop-over to UMNO/BN should the PR be successful in winning over more MPs from East Malaysia or the non-Malay component parties of the BN.

Now if this were to indeed happen, then we would be left with two political coalitions: The PR that is more pluralist but with a significantly small Malay-Muslim component, and a BN that is less pluralist but with a strong Malay-Muslim component. This may suit the needs and interests of some of the more religiously conservative and racially-minded members of the PR, but it would spell disaster for the country as Malaysia would, for all intents and purposes, be split along both racial and religious lines: the teleological conclusion to five decades of divisive racial and religious politics finally playing itself out in the fragmentation of the nation as a whole. In such a situation, the PR would indeed break apart, but the highest cost (both political and ethical) will be incurred on PAS – that would henceforth be seen and justly condemned for betraying the People’ Declaration and selling themselves to serve their own short-sighted sectarian ends.

Tuan Guru Nik Aziz Nik Mat – who knows better for he was one of those who entered the BN in the 1970s when PAS was brought into the coalition by Asri Muda – is right when he reminds the members and leaders of his own party not to fall into the trap of the BN/UMNO, and to abide by the terms and agenda of the PR. Nik Aziz remembers how PAS was sold short, betrayed and ultimately hung to dry by UMNO; and how it took the party 12 years to put itself back together before they finally regained control of Kelantan in 1990.

The ‘Young Turks’ of PAS today would do well to listen to the wise counsel of the man who is, after all, their spiritual leader and guide, for Nik Aziz knows what he is talking about on this matter. Should PAS’s leaders continue to make such unilateral demands, they will only be helping UMNO/BN weaken the collective resolve and accommodative spirit that brought the Pakatan Rakyat together in the first place, and by doing so be helping further UMNO/BN’s objective of maintaining its hegemonic grip on the country. And so for all our sakes – the Malaysian people’s and for PAS’s sake as well – do rein in these wild horses and keep the PR convoy in line. The road to a plural, democratic, inclusive and equal Malaysia is and can only be a long one, and we don’t need hot-headed unilateralists to take us off track. The March 2008 elections was an election for a new Malaysia, and not a theocratic sectarian state, be it in the communitarian mould of UMNO or PAS.

Print Friendly

  1. #1 by k1980 on Wednesday, 18 June 2008 - 7:27 am

    Dollah was riding in his limousine when he saw two men along the roadside eating grass.

    Disturbed, he ordered his driver to stop and he got out to investigate.

    He asked one man, ‘Why are you eating grass?’

    ‘We don’t have any money for food after the price hike,’ the poor man replied. ‘We have to eat grass.’

    ‘Well, then, you can come with me to my house and I’ll feed you’, Dollah said.

    ‘But sir, I have a wife and two children with me. They are over there, under that tree’.

    ‘No problem, bring them along,’ Dollah replied.

    Turning to the other poor man he stated, ‘You come with us also.’

    The second man, in a pitiful voice then said, ‘But sir, I also have a wife and six children with me!’

    ‘Bring them all, as well,’ the lawyer answered.

    They all entered the car, which was no easy task,even for a car as large as the limousine was.

    Once underway, one of the poor-fellows turned to Dollah and said, ‘Sir, you are too kind. Thank you for taking all of us with you.’

    The PM replied, ‘Glad to do it. You’ll really love my place; the grass is almost 1 metre high!’

  2. #2 by Jeffrey on Wednesday, 18 June 2008 - 8:23 am

    IF Datuk Yong Teck Lee & Sabah Progressive Party don’t recoil and proceed to make the announcement today it will open the way for other Sabah dissidents – as well as others in Sarawak & Peninsular – to follow suit. I am awaiting to hear news from the MCA front.

  3. #3 by Jeffrey on Wednesday, 18 June 2008 - 8:39 am

    If you ask me it is sheer waste of resources and lack of focus to employ cyber trooper from ranks of unemployed (graduated from US with reasonable English) merely to “distract and to divert attention from the issues at hand” or worse still act as “agent provocateur” to incite sensitive issues disrupting harmony.

    Not being able to counter the truth is one thing, trying to preach to the converted without being armed with facts, logic and balance of discourse is counter productive to reinforce detractors negative perception deeper.

    The better course is to shed the hypocrisy and come out open to admit one’s credential as a ‘sincere’ cyber communicator – this builds up a modicum of trust amongst those addressed – the mission of which is to engage Malaysians in a 2 way dialogue of government’s position, articulating the government’s position in cogent manner based on whatever facts and data made available by the government, collecting feed back for dissemination back to it for deliberation on how to improve governance and correct the negative stance of detractors. Never defend the indefensible as that erodes credibility of one’s message.

  4. #4 by Jeffrey on Wednesday, 18 June 2008 - 8:40 am

    Sorry – the above inadvertantly posted in wrong thread.

  5. #5 by k1980 on Wednesday, 18 June 2008 - 8:58 am

    Report Card on BN Government for the past 51 Years

    http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c13/howsy/bedol100days.jpg

  6. #6 by Bigjoe on Wednesday, 18 June 2008 - 9:09 am

    If you ask PAS to put its Islamic Agenda secondary basically forever, their response would be how can they since its their party ideology? Can we ask PSM to give up its socialist stance or MCA from its Chinese interest?

    PAS Youth like UMNO Youth does not know how to change because they are incapable of breaking real new grounds in idea and philosophy. Selling spiritual drug or pork barrel politics is an addiction as much for the seller as the buyer.

    Frankly, i have no problem with PAS Youth selling their spiritual drug but the problem is they want to change the rules of commerce to say buyers have to buy the drug or that if the druggie and pusher causes any harm, its OK. Fine, they can sell their drug but anyone else should be able to sell medicine or stay away from it.

  7. #7 by Jeffrey on Wednesday, 18 June 2008 - 9:43 am

    I refer to Front page news (The Star of 18th June) on Sultan of Selangor’s outrage at the protest of PAS Youth and its threat to stage a demonstration at Shah Alam stadium against performance of rock queen Ella and Dangdut singer MAS Idayu on July 6th.

    YB, it is significant that PAS memorandum was submitted by PAS Youth Chief Sallehan Mokhyi to the Selangor Mentri Besar’s Office which is perceived as in furtherance of the earlier call by National PAS Youth vice chief Azman Shapawi that the party PAS wanted all the Pakatan Rakyat states to implement shariah laws!

    My Question : did we vote Pakatan Rakyat into the state of Selangor and Perak or even Kedah so that they can become another Kelantan? Are supporting the Pakatan Rakyat to come to power to turn Malysia into an Islamic state ala PAS’s vision as slowly implemented in Kelantan?

    Such threat by PAS to stage demonstration against local artiste delivered through the office of Selangor MB who keeps silent is unprecedented.

    As an important component party in Pakatan Rakyat I call on you and the DAP to tell PAS off.

    If this statement (that Pakatan Rakyat states implement shariah laws) were unauthorized, it behooves the PAS national leadership to contradict it, which it didn’t.

    And why is either Selangor MB and DSAI quiet on this? IF Selangor MB has not tyhe spine to tell PAS off, what are the DAP state councillors doing having no guts to tell Khalid off for his non committal and cowardly stance of silence?

    It is joke that you guys are thinking of cross overs to take over the government from defecting BN component parties and personages because if I were them I would take an aboutface turn to remain in the BN if your agenda is to allow PAS to use the Pakatan Rakyat to turn our country into an Islamic state!

    If the DAP has no political will to take a public stand on this and has to pathetically leave it to His Royal Highness the Sultan of Selangor to resist PAS’s unjustified and unlawful encroachment (in context of the Pakatan Rakyat’s Manifesto agreed by all), I would suggest to DAP to cross over to the BN instead!

  8. #8 by Jeffrey on Wednesday, 18 June 2008 - 9:47 am

    Sory for typo omission recitifed in capitals : “Are WE supporting the Pakatan Rakyat to come to power to turn Malysia into an Islamic state ala PAS’s vision as slowly implemented in Kelantan?”

  9. #9 by Jeffrey on Wednesday, 18 June 2008 - 9:54 am

    At the critical moment of other BN compent parties & personages crossing over to enable Pakatan Rakyat to cross the threshold to form the government, it is surely important for Datukk Seri Anwar to realise that his stand on PAS’s initiatives to use Pakatan Rakyat to further its Islamic state agenda can no more be prevaricating because it bears on the important question whether the alternative government structured by the defacto head deserves the continued support of Mainstream Malaysia – when on the eve of crossing the Rubicon you evince the very lack of spine to do and tell right in the face of what is wrong in the same manner you accuse you the leader of your political oponent of sleep and keeping elegant silent on matters that are in principle wrong done right before your face!

  10. #10 by lupus on Wednesday, 18 June 2008 - 11:17 am

    I see UNMO is getting worried – about all the crimes it had committed while in power. After losing Govt, all their dirt will be for all to see on how they raped the country.

    Kasim Amat was the user killer. I was wondering what had happened to this user. However, to ban this user would akin to be like BN – dirty dirty dirty….

  11. #11 by seage on Wednesday, 18 June 2008 - 11:59 am

    One more thing to add to Dr Farish’s writtings. All Muslim in Malaysia should NOT perceive the rejection of PAS as synonymous to rejection of Islam. It is two separate matter. Its like rejection of a Marigold full cream milk i.e. not that I reject milk, but I merely feel that I prefer some other milk e.g. low fat, skim, etc. or even rejected it because I don’t feel like having it now. Reamplified, DON’T FALL FOR UMNO’S TRAP!

  12. #12 by limkamput on Wednesday, 18 June 2008 - 12:00 pm

    Clap clap clap, where is Lee (the Cambridge guy) and Godfather? Let’s hear more on this lingering issue. I think Farish Noor must also answer some of the questions posed on him. He seemed to praise Tok Guru Nik Aziz a lot. May I know what is his motivation for doing that? May I know whether I will get the answer from the question I asked earlier in the thread.

    This gradual Islamisation and Islamic state thing are just too protracted. Are we not spending valuable time and resources debating over and over again this “good for nothing” issue. Why is it so important for one to impose his/her way on others. Why must one impose his/her belief to others? How do we conclusively prove that our way, our belief and our religion are the right one? Are not all these are mere bigotry and jingoism? Why can’t we live happily together without imposing on others? PAS must be made to understand that others are all going for inclusiveness, only PAS is going for exclusiveness. If you want to pray, to fast, to only watch religious programmes or sing religious hymns, no body is stopping you. But if others prefer to do something else (so long as not legally or morally wrong) why must you impose your way on others. What divine right have you got, PAS? Your belief is true according to your faith, not others, don’t forget that.

    Yes, PK must resolve this issue once for all. My goodness, this is Selangor. Who is this PAS youth to impose on others? Certainly the majority who voted for PK do not want to exchange racism with religious bigotry.

    I think it is better for BN MPs contemplating to cross over to ponder far and deep first.

    To Godfather, I don’t mind letting the stealing and plundering to go on for a little while longer. I am not prepared yet to embark on another odyssey. All these PAS people really got nothing better to do. Hello PAS, show me one idea how to better manage Malaysia other than telling us what to wear, what to eat, and what to watch and what to see.

  13. #13 by Jeffrey on Wednesday, 18 June 2008 - 12:03 pm

    YB,

    This is not a case of PAS Youth pedaling, in Big Joe’s words, “spiritual drug” on their own and up to “consumers” whether, caveat emptor, want to buy it.

    There are four things here of significance:

    1. They are delivering the threat of a protest demonstration via a memorandum delivered to the Selangor Menteri Besar’s Office, implicating the entire Pakatan Rakyat State Government why it acquieces with it by not thrwing it out or even making a statement or advice against!

    2. State PAS Youth chief Sallehen Mokhyi’s threat to stage a demonstration at the Shah Alam Stadium came on the heels of a statement by national PAS Youth vice-chief Azman Shapawi that “THE PARTY” wanted all the Pakatan Rakyat states to implement Syariah laws, a “party” implyiong the national leadership of PAS and not just the Youtyh Wing’s unilateral wet dream of it about which to date the national leadership of paS has issued no statement to contradict it.

    3. Nor did the national leadership of DAP & PKR for and on behalf of Pakatn Rakyat. HRH the Sultan of Selangor who is the head of Islam was reported to be outraged describing PAS’s protest as “hypocritical” and “trivial”, and it sems strange to me that if the Head of Islam could feel such outrage, the champions of secular and plural government within Pakatan Rakyat do not not feel such as to deem it appropraite to whispher a word!

    4. At the important threshhold of Pakatan Rakyat’s ‘Crossing the Rubicon’, so to speak, to form the government with the assistance of defections from BN, all Malaysians – including the “to be defectors” – will want to know if the defacto head of PR (DSAI) is taking us to cross over to the embrace of the Islamic state.

    And for PR’s leaders to keep silent so as not to upset the momentum in the face of such a blatant challenge friom PAS at such a sensitive and critical moment in our nation’s history of an unprecedented change of government is, in my opinion, cowardly and shirking of duty, and placing expedience entirely over the critical principles upon which Pakatan Rakyat including PAS through the manifesto have held out to the people and won their support on that basis, but now seem contradicted and back pedalled!

  14. #14 by Jeffrey on Wednesday, 18 June 2008 - 12:11 pm

    I apologise for several typos in the above.

  15. #15 by Jeffrey on Wednesday, 18 June 2008 - 12:15 pm

  16. #16 by seage on Wednesday, 18 June 2008 - 12:15 pm

    PAS is potrying itself as a trojan horse. Is there anyone there who can see the big picture? What is more important? To stand united and work for the well-being of the rakyat? Or chose your own agenda and pick on nitty gritty issues? Shouldn’t there be a council within PR to discuss on matters like these (NOT THAT IT IS WORTH TO BE DISCUSSED AT ANYWAY)? Having such demonstration is literally waste of time, waste of resources, waste of effort! If PAS is like what the youth wing has portrayed, it will be a curse to PR.

  17. #17 by badcliq on Wednesday, 18 June 2008 - 12:31 pm

    Those PAS really……no words to describe them..If any reason PR falls, one of the MAIN reason will be them!!

  18. #18 by Lee Wang Yen on Wednesday, 18 June 2008 - 12:52 pm

    I share Jeffrey’s and limkamput’s sentiment: as much as we (DAP supporters) would like to see BN losing power, we see PAS’s agenda of Islamic state and Islamisation as the greater evil.

    I’m pleasantly surprised by the fact that most commentators here basically share a very similar reservation about PAS. I used to post a lot on this issue because at that time only Jeffrey, limkamput, and Dawsheng shared my view to a considerable extent. But it seems that I no longer need to do so. I hope DAP and PKR leaders will take our concern seriously.

  19. #19 by limkamput on Wednesday, 18 June 2008 - 1:24 pm

    I still remember when Sdr Lim called for the boycott of swearing of Perak Exco (on ground of PAS’ candidate being appointed as MB), he was almost castrated by the bloggers here. But now with this idiotic incident in Selangor, may I know what happened to the them, particularly Godfather? I am still waiting for your response, seriously. I am not trying to pick a quarrel here. I just want to hear your view on this.

  20. #20 by max2811 on Wednesday, 18 June 2008 - 1:48 pm

    I hope to see the keris wielding MOE jobless. Then, he can wave his keris at the night markets….I’m a teacher(LOL).

  21. #21 by BoycottLocalPapers on Wednesday, 18 June 2008 - 2:10 pm

    Malaysia is doomed. Why DAP & PKR have to work with Talibans like PAS? If that is how PAS is behaving, it is better for DAP & PKR to work with UMNO. Too bad one is racist and another is religious fanatics.

    Component parties in BN should get out of BN to join Pakatan Rakyat while Pakatan Rakyat should kick out PAS from the coalition. Let the fanatical PAS members work with the racist UMNOputras.

    MCA and UMNO are benefiting from PAS’ stupidity and foolishness. Everywhere I walk in KL today I could see posters put up by The Stars “SULTAN OF SELANGOR IS ANGRY WITH PAS.”

  22. #22 by Godfather on Wednesday, 18 June 2008 - 3:04 pm

    Much ado about nothing. PAS Youth is to be expected to make such stupid statements because that’s how they have been brought up. That’s their style of indoctrination. They will never openly denounce their Islamic agenda. Let’s wait for Nik Aziz and other senior PAS officials to make a statement on the Selangor Sultan’s outburst. Trust me – PAS Youth will be admonished behind the scenes, and there will be no further trouble.

    No need to make a mountain out of a molehill. That’s what UMNO and its subservient coalition members want.

  23. #23 by k1980 on Wednesday, 18 June 2008 - 3:23 pm

  24. #24 by Jeffrey on Wednesday, 18 June 2008 - 4:40 pm

    Part of political process, not considered security threat under ISA. Don’t think Yong Teck Lee/ SAPP will make move public like that unless they believe DSAI that more defections to come, way exceeding 30, either before Monday or on Monday itself by BN votes in support of motion. We should be ready for anything to happen good or bad.

  25. #25 by shadow on Wednesday, 18 June 2008 - 5:17 pm

    DSAI if you want to take over the govt., make very certain that your 2/3rd majority is without PAS otherwise you’re in real trouble. In no time your govt. will thrown off by the BN.

  26. #26 by undergrad2 on Wednesday, 18 June 2008 - 9:20 pm

    To completely deny that Islamophobia continues to be an issue among non-Muslims is to deny the experience of the last 50 years and the opposition to religious extremism among not just non-Malays but Malay Muslims.

    Though PAS has moved somewhat to the center, religious ideology still is the major motivating factor of their leaders. What is different is that PAS leadership today comprises of members of the Malay intelligentsia who are less radical, not afraid to reason and to compromise. They do not seem to be as ideologically oriented as their predecessors and are more pragmatic.

    All this talk about a possible Islamic state is a manifestation of that Islamophobia which has taken a new lease of life post 9/11 and the preoccupation of some politicians with an issue they think would unite or divide depending on which side of the political divide they see themselves.

    There will never be and can never be an Islamic state in Malaysia as the term ‘Islamic state’ is understood today – as is the case in countries like Pakistan.

    My 2-cents.

  27. #27 by Godfather on Wednesday, 18 June 2008 - 9:26 pm

    Never say never. It could become reality maybe in another 50 – 100 years when the population mix alters drastically from what it is today.

  28. #28 by undergrad2 on Wednesday, 18 June 2008 - 9:30 pm

    Hence my reference and emphasis to “today”.

  29. #29 by undergrad2 on Wednesday, 18 June 2008 - 9:34 pm

    When Mahathir suddenly declared that Malaysia is, a view which later morphed into Malaysia has always been an Islamic state, there seems to be a divergence in views as to what is an Islamic state.

  30. #30 by undergrad2 on Wednesday, 18 June 2008 - 9:38 pm

    It is safe to interpret “today” as in “our life time” – even in our children’s lifetime some would maintain, until demographics change like you say it would over 50 to 100 years.

  31. #31 by Loyal Malaysian on Wednesday, 18 June 2008 - 9:44 pm

    And I don’t think we need to wonder why the MSM gave such prominence to those “islamisation’ statements by the PAS young turks.
    Will PAS fall into UMNO’s trap?
    For the sake of our nation, I hope not!!

  32. #32 by undergrad2 on Wednesday, 18 June 2008 - 9:44 pm

    Over 100 years through a policy of attrition, non-Malays would have migrated to other countries. Those that remain will exist on the fringe of a predominantly Muslim society, a permanent underclass without representation in the country’s institutions. I am counting on your children and your children’s childen and mine will not be among those.

  33. #33 by Godfather on Wednesday, 18 June 2008 - 10:35 pm

    Highly unlikely that my children will treat this country as nothing more than a second home or holiday home. Their skills will be much more welcomed and rewarded in places like London, Singapore or Hong Kong, so why bother with Bolehland ?

    Just look at Michelle Yeoh. She makes her fortune in Hong Kong and Hollywood, gets a datukship, and gets a pat on the back (or was it her shoulder?) by Badawi.

  34. #34 by Neobanchuan on Wednesday, 18 June 2008 - 10:44 pm

    Wait until more member parties from BN, such as MCA, SAPP to jump ship, PR can kiss goodbye to PAS forever. PAS thinks PKR and DAP are beholden to them? Only they have their own agenda and other two parties don’t? The are slowly showing their true colors and it is total change from what they preached before GE. If the days come who care if PAS is in PR or not?

  35. #35 by AhPek on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 12:09 am

    “There will never be and can never be an Islamic state in Malaysia as the term ‘Islamic State’ is understood today- as is the case in countries like Pakistan.”. undergrad 2.

    Well that’s a pretty confident stance you make there. I hope you are right but for me I still have my doubts especially here in a country where the Muslims are a dominant group with not a few fundamentalists amongst the group.One would only have to look at Europe.Although there is no possibility of islamic states being formed there as yet they have made their presence felt in a few places and in some cases emphatically so.

  36. #36 by limkamput on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 12:34 am

    I see the debates here are full of contradiction. First, there will never be Islamic state now. Then Islamic state will be the reality in the future.

    So many assumptions here are simply unfounded. If they can’t attain Islamic state now, how will they attain it in the future? Are you saying all Muslims are supportive of Islamic state? To me it is a contest of ideas which we have to start now. The non-Malays and those Muslim who are not supportive of Islamic state must speak up now or keep our peace forever. It does not matter whether the population is 90% or even 100% Muslim in the future. The country can still be a non Islamic state, got it?

  37. #37 by AhPek on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 1:36 am

    The aim and purpose of an Islamic state is the establishment, maintenance and development of those virtues which the Creator wishes human life to be enriched by the prevention and eradication of those evils in human lifewhich He finds abhorrent.Islam places a high ideal before such a state which it must use all the means at its disposal to achieve.If you ask Lee Wan yen he will say that deception is definitely one of the methods in the “all the means at its disposal to achieve such a state.”.

    Just tell me which country with 100% Muslims is not an islamic state, limkamput?

  38. #38 by Jeffrey on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 1:49 am

    The pace of transition from present to future (fast or slow) is a function of how much PAS is resisted at every stage.

    The strategy – and challenge – of PAS is that it does not expect overnight change; it is patient & prepared for protracted struggle. It believes that it has eternity to struggle and prevail eventually to accomplish the Almighty’s objectives. It will assert its policy step by step, each by itself is insignificant, ambiguous and marginal (which people like us sometimes just don’t put up a fight against such an advance of PAS’s agenda precisely because it is “marginal” as weighed and balanced against greater picture of “hope” in PR’s unity etc abject frustration with BN) which PAS takes advantage of; because it also knows that when we’re not fighting over each marginal advance, the aggregate of all marginal advances over time will, in totality, represent a significant paradigm shift in position and gain of acceptance of its ideology. It is the “boiling the frog” syndrome that it is subjecting us, if you know what I mean….When we trivialise each move as ‘much ado about nothing’, they already got us squarely in where they want to place us.

  39. #39 by limkamput on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 1:52 am

    “The aim and purpose of an Islamic state is the establishment, maintenance and development of those virtues which the Creator wishes human life to be enriched by the prevention and eradication of those evils in human lifewhich He finds abhorrent.”

    Ah Pek, first you find me the country you described above.

  40. #40 by AhPek on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 2:36 am

    The aim and purpose of an Islamic state …………………..Therefore can’t anybody name an Islamic country.Most of the OIC countries are true Islamic states.So where is the problem?

    The point is you make a statement amounting to saying that it doesn’t matter whether a country 100% Muslims it can be non Islamic state. Sure it is your that it could be so but then what is in the real world is not so.The difference with what ought to be and what it really is is a world apart.That’s my point.

  41. #41 by AhPek on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 2:39 am

    Should be “Sure you believe that it could so but then…………………..”.

  42. #42 by limkamput on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 3:08 am

    I am not very sure we precisely understand each other. So let me say again what I was trying to say:
    1. If we have Islamic states as you described, i.e… “is the establishment, maintenance and development of those virtues which the Creator wishes human life to be enriched by the prevention and eradication of those evils in human lifewhich He finds abhorrent.”, then I have no problem.
    2. The reality is there is no such an Islamic state as you described.
    3. The Islamic states you mentioned like OICs are not Islamic states. They are theocratic or bigotry states which many Muslims themselves may not agree but they have choice.
    4. I want Malaysia to have a choice, at least when we still have the opportunity to do so.
    5. Someday when Malaysia has 90% population who are Muslims, the country can still remain secular. that is my point. My question is: must a country with 90% Muslim population become theocratic?

  43. #43 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 3:40 am

    “My question is: must a country with 90% Muslim population become theocratic?” limkamput

    Nobody in this thread or in other threads has ever said that it has to be.

  44. #44 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 5:01 am

    “…I still have my doubts especially here in a country where the Muslims are a dominant group with not a few fundamentalists amongst the group.One would only have to look at Europe.Although there is no possibility of islamic states being formed there as yet they have made their presence felt …” Ahpek

    Correct me if I’m wrong. It is your belief that Malaysia is on track to becoming an Islamic state if it is not already one now – much like Marx’s dialectical materialism, an air of inevitability. May we know the foundation for that belief?

    You seem to have merged the issue of an Islamic state and the influence that Islamic religious fanaticism or extremism or values have on government policies. Rather than engaged in the semantics of what is an Islamic state, it is more useful to dwell on the issue of the growing influence of Islamic values in the lives of ordinary Malaysians. It is a fact that Islamic values have intruded into the private lives of its citizens today more so than it was in the 60s. And it started with Anwar Ibrahim in the mid 70s, the Prime Minister-in-Waiting today! Let’s not forget that.

    In the United States the influence of Christian evangelicalism over the country’s foreign policy has interesting ramifications and you may want to read “The Family” by Jeff Sharlett – released this year, and already a New York best seller.

    What is happening in Europe for some years now is the migration (legal and illegal) of Muslims from Eastern Europe, West Asia and the Middle East. You are right about the likelihood of an Islamic state emerging in Europe right now. Right now these migrants are living on the fringes of society in Western Europe and U.K. with high unemployment rates reported among them and substandard housing, lack of health care etc. Their increasing numbers today mean the governments can no longer ignore them. With the current higher birth rates reported among them and with a low birth rate and an aging population among Caucasians, who knows where the fast changing demographics will lead over the course of centuries? A Muslim Europe is not an impossibility given the fact that Islam is growing at a much higher and faster rate than all other religions.

  45. #45 by Godfather on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 8:13 am

    Limkamput asked:

    ““My question is: must a country with 90% Muslim population become theocratic?”

    The answer is simple: It is possible, but not probable.

    The issue of theocratic state vs secular state goes beyond what the law in a particular state prescribes. It is HOW that law is applied and upheld that decides whether we can term a state theocratic or secular. A classic example is Indonesia. The constitution never defines it as a theocratic state. Just because the constitution allows freedom to practice one’s religious beliefs makes people point to Indonesia as a secular country. Is it really secular ? When there is a riot, who takes the brunt of the riots ? Churches get burnt down, Chinese shops get torched. Has anyone in Indonesia been convicted (or even indicted) of causing hurt or damage to property or even murder in a riot in Indonesia ? What are the chances of a dispute between Indonesians of different faiths being really settled outside the ambit of religious pressure ?

    Remember – just because a country has protection for minorities doesn’t mean it is secular. Every country with an absolute majority in one religion has a theocratic bent.

  46. #46 by Jeffrey on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 8:55 am

    ‘Theocratic bent’ as in theocracy has special meaning, the statement ‘every country with an absolute majority in one religion has a theocratic bent’ is not true if the word religion refers generally to (say) Christianity or Hinduism ; if it refers to “Islam”, may generally look that way though not true in all cases as for eg the case of Turkey which has Muslim majority but not theocratic as yet, and even in the case of Indonesia acts of riot cited are likely more motivated by race than religion. A theocratic state is defined to large extent by the prominence given to Sharia.

    However the statements that a country with secular laws (as Malaysia) is not necessarily a secular state (secular as we understand the term); that determination of a theocratic bent from just the law but how that law is applied as well as “just because a country has protection for minorities doesn’t mean it is secular” are fair statements.

    Lastly a state not secular may not be necessarily be the other extreme – theocratic but may by all counts be ‘hybrid’ having both characteristics.

  47. #47 by Jeffrey on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 8:56 am

    Oops – “…determination of a theocratic bent from NOT just the law but how that law is applied…”

  48. #48 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 9:01 am

    A useful starting point if I may suggest when it comes to what exactly is a theocractic state would be Wikipedia’s statement on the concept of a theocratic state.

    “Theocracy should be distinguished from other secular forms of government that have a state religion, or are merely influenced by theological or moral concepts, and monarchies held “By the Grace of God”.

  49. #49 by Godfather on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 9:05 am

    That’s why I say that it is possible, but not probable, for Bolehland to be a truly secular state when its population mix reaches 90 pct Muslim. And I don’t think my children and their children will want to hang around to find out.

  50. #50 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 9:05 am

    Malaysia is a secular form of government with Islam as its official religion – hardly a theocratic or Islamic state. Is she on the slippery slopes towards becoming an Islamic state. Take a shot!

You must be logged in to post a comment.