PAS, Don’t fall for UMNO’s Trap!


By Farish A. Noor

Civil society, and the actors who occupy that public domain, exists for a number of reasons and one of the reasons is to keep all politicians and political parties in check. It would appear that the work of civil society actors in Malaysia today has been cut out thanks to the murky goings-on within and between the political parties of Malaysia on both sides of the political fence.

Hardly three months have passed since the landmark results of the 8th March Federal elections and already we see Malaysia transformed as never before: Despite winning 79 Parliamentary seats the UMNO party that has been in power for more than half a century is showing signs of internal division and fragmenting before our very eyes; bringing with its collapse the very real possibility of change in the mindset of millions of ordinary Malaysian citizens who were told for so long that the sun of the Barisan Nasional would never set. Well, with BN MPs running helter-skelter in all directions at the moment, it would appear as if that claim is about to be tested in no uncertain terms.

What is worrying, however, is the fact that the Pakatan Rakyat coalition is still in its infant stages and does not have the luxury of time on its side. Should the BN government fall, and that prospect seems more likely by the day, the PR should be ready to assume office at a moment’s notice. This can only be done if and when the PR gets its act together and all component parties of the PR agree once and for all that they will abide by the terms they had set for themselves; which includes the PR manifesto and the standards of the People’s Declaration which they had all assented to.

Now the problem that faces the PR is that for too long the component parties have grown accustomed to their own version of narrow communitarian based politics, identifying specific and exclusive racial and religious communities as their target constituencies and primary vote base. What is even more worrying is the tendency for some of the leaders of the PR component parties to continue operating on the basis of the idea that their primary political constituency has remained unchanged; thereby making the fatal assumption that the Malaysian public and the Malaysian electorate hasn’t evolved over the years. Now the last time a right-wing politician worked on such a silly assumption he did something even sillier: namely take out a keris in public and started waffling about racial dominance and the special status of his ethnic-religious constituency. And see what happened: the same politician’s party was thumped at the polls and lost every single Malay-majority urban seat on the West coast, thereby proving that the Malays were no longer susceptible to this sort of juvenile antics and emotional manipulation. Padan Muka.

Looking at the Pakatan Rakyat coalition today, we sadly see rather similar tactics being used by some leaders of the PR, and in particular by some of the leaders of PAS. First came the claim that the PR in Selangor should start ‘Islamising’ the public space of Selangor and promoting faith and piety among the Muslims of the state, which begs the question: Since when did the PR become a missionary pietist movement and who said that PAS leaders of the PR in Selangor were voted to become our religious mentors and moral guardians?

Now it would appear that there have been calls by some of the leaders of the Youth Wing of PAS for the PR to start Islamising the five states whose assemblies are under the control of the PR, with Kelantan to serve as the model.

Now let us repeat this again for the umpteenth time: The vote for the PR at the recent elections was not a vote for an Islamic state, or an endorsement for any kind of communitarian or sectarian politics, be it on religious or ethnic grounds. The Malaysian public – who remain the real power brokers in Malaysia today – have signalled their utter disgust and frustration with the slow pace of reform that was meant to be the starting point of the Badawi administration but which ended with pointless projects such as an Islamic theme park and crystal mosque instead.

Nor is there any indication that the Muslims of Malaysia have called for any form of theocratic governance in the country, for their rejection of the state’s Islam Hadari project may actually suggest that many of them are fed up with the politicisation of religion by this stage.

So when is PAS – or rather some of the more vocal and hot-headed leaders of PAS – going to realise that for it to become a truly national party with national ambitions, it has to adapt to the reality of a plural, multicultural and multireligious Malaysia where there are not only differences between Muslims and non-Muslims, but also – crucially – differences among Muslims as well? Who and what gave these PAS leaders the licence to assume that all Muslims in Malaysia want an Islamic state, and more importantly their version of an Islamic state? What on earth makes them think that the rest of Malaysia wants to be like Kelantan?

Whenever any leader or any party in the PR makes demands like these, it goes against the collective spirit of the PR, narrows the universalist scope of the PR manifesto and betrays the spirit of the People’s Declaration – which, need we remind them, they all signed and agreed to. The negative consequences of such unilateralism are manifold, and can be summed up thus:

Firstly, it reinforces the BN’s claim that the PR is at best an instrumental coalition that will break apart because there will never be any real compromise and co-operation between PAS and the other parties;

Secondly, it sends shivers down the spines of many non-Muslim Malaysians who – for better or worse – have their own misgivings about the idea of any religious state (Islamic or otherwise) in what they hope to see evolve into a secular, democratic, free and equal Malaysia;

Thirdly, it also alienates Malaysian Muslims who – this writer included – also have deep misgivings about the abuse of religion for political ends and who do not want to live in an Islamic state where our personal lives, private space and right of speech and thought on religious matters are decided by Islamist politicians from a party we are not even members of;

Fourthly, it will provide ample materiel for Malaysia-bashers who would jump at the opportunity to rubbish the PR government (if it comes to power) and to make outlandish claims that Malaysia has fallen under the heels of PAS and is about to be transformed into some Iranian-like theocracy;

Fifth, – and perhaps this is the most dangerous consequence of all – such unilateral moves on the part of this handful of PAS leaders will pave the way for UMNO to open its doors to PAS, and to invite PAS to abandon the PR and opt for joining the BN instead, ostensibly for the sake of ensuring Malay-Muslim unity, and more importantly Malay-Muslim dominance.

Now of all the worst-case scenarios to contemplate, this is the most worrisome. During the election campaign of March 2008, UMNO’s posters in Trengganu were already paving the way for a PAS cross-over to the BN, with slogans like ‘If you want to really promote Islam, then join the BN/UMNO’. Since March there has been speculation about PAS leaders who have been in negotiations with UMNO, a fact that some of them have admitted; and talk about a PAS hop-over to UMNO/BN should the PR be successful in winning over more MPs from East Malaysia or the non-Malay component parties of the BN.

Now if this were to indeed happen, then we would be left with two political coalitions: The PR that is more pluralist but with a significantly small Malay-Muslim component, and a BN that is less pluralist but with a strong Malay-Muslim component. This may suit the needs and interests of some of the more religiously conservative and racially-minded members of the PR, but it would spell disaster for the country as Malaysia would, for all intents and purposes, be split along both racial and religious lines: the teleological conclusion to five decades of divisive racial and religious politics finally playing itself out in the fragmentation of the nation as a whole. In such a situation, the PR would indeed break apart, but the highest cost (both political and ethical) will be incurred on PAS – that would henceforth be seen and justly condemned for betraying the People’ Declaration and selling themselves to serve their own short-sighted sectarian ends.

Tuan Guru Nik Aziz Nik Mat – who knows better for he was one of those who entered the BN in the 1970s when PAS was brought into the coalition by Asri Muda – is right when he reminds the members and leaders of his own party not to fall into the trap of the BN/UMNO, and to abide by the terms and agenda of the PR. Nik Aziz remembers how PAS was sold short, betrayed and ultimately hung to dry by UMNO; and how it took the party 12 years to put itself back together before they finally regained control of Kelantan in 1990.

The ‘Young Turks’ of PAS today would do well to listen to the wise counsel of the man who is, after all, their spiritual leader and guide, for Nik Aziz knows what he is talking about on this matter. Should PAS’s leaders continue to make such unilateral demands, they will only be helping UMNO/BN weaken the collective resolve and accommodative spirit that brought the Pakatan Rakyat together in the first place, and by doing so be helping further UMNO/BN’s objective of maintaining its hegemonic grip on the country. And so for all our sakes – the Malaysian people’s and for PAS’s sake as well – do rein in these wild horses and keep the PR convoy in line. The road to a plural, democratic, inclusive and equal Malaysia is and can only be a long one, and we don’t need hot-headed unilateralists to take us off track. The March 2008 elections was an election for a new Malaysia, and not a theocratic sectarian state, be it in the communitarian mould of UMNO or PAS.

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  1. #1 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 9:08 am

    “And I don’t think my children and their children will want to hang around to find out.” Godfather

    No. I am out!

  2. #2 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 9:09 am

    …and they are out too!

  3. #3 by AhPek on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 9:11 am

    “The reality is there is no such an islamic state as you described.”. limkamput.

    An islamic state follows the tenets of islam and these tenets are the virtues the Creator wishes human life to have so as to eradicate evils.To mantain such an ideal they (islamic states) have the syariah law.

    This is what all islamic states are doing but whether they are achieving virtuous life or not, I’ve no comment.Perhaps to some they haven’t but to islamic states they are likely to say yes.
    It is much like a group of serious students whose aim is to achieve straight As but whether they will or not has a range of possibilities.

  4. #4 by limkamput on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 9:17 am

    “My question is: must a country with 90% Muslim population become theocratic?” limkamput

    Nobody in this thread or in other threads has ever said that it has to be. undergrad2

    Please read what you both have posted earlier and those posted a few minutes ago.

  5. #5 by limkamput on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 9:25 am

    Ah Pek, they can try to achieve whatever. But it is a one way street, that I wish is not at the expense of those who do not subscribe to such a way of life. My contention is while we still can fight for a more inclusive Malaysia, we should rightly do so. We must all be careful whether we talking about ideal or reality. To argue or even support Islamic based on its ideals is to me highly dangerous and represents misrepresentation of the reality. There will NEVER be ideal Islamic state. It will only be theocratic states.

  6. #6 by lakilompat on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 9:41 am

    If u go Turkey, or any of the Islamic countries, they don’t implement the so called Islam into their countries law.

    If u go Mecca, the traders there don’t even lock their boutique, jus a plain cloth to cover it to tell the customer that the owner went to rest.

    Religion dun blend into law – misconcept by many ppl.

  7. #7 by cheng on soo on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 9:44 am

    AhPek Says:

    Today at 01: 36.21 (8 hours ago)
    ………….
    Just tell me which country with 100% Muslims is not an islamic state, limkamput?

    Yes, at least 1 countries, i.e. TURKEY, nearly 100% muslim, but religion don’t mix with politics there. Non Muslim are not disturbed / limited in practising their believe.

  8. #8 by AhPek on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 9:46 am

    “To argue or even support Islamic based on its ideals is to me highly dangerous and represents misrepresentation of the reality.There will Never be ideal Islamic state.’. limkamput

  9. #9 by AhPek on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 9:50 am

    That’s what you the Kafir is saying.You are the Kafir according to the Muslims and would you say there is no such thing.
    What is reality to you is of no importance to the Muslims. Muslims are interested in following the tenets of their religion.

  10. #10 by limkamput on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 9:52 am

    Godfather, shouldn’t each country try to uphold its law and constitution? Isn’t that the basis of government? How can one argue that it does not matter what the law and constitution say, it is how the majority of the people choose to live. I think you have open another front which frankly I can not handle.

    Malaysia has a choice now, and we should exercise it. No theocratic state. What we decide now and hopefully entrenched and solidified in our constitution will also ensure that in the future the country will remain free and secular even at that time the population may be 90% Muslims. What you see in Indonesia today is the combination of many factors – ignorance, tribalism, poverty, racism, inequality, social and economic depravation. It is not just religion. I believe as Malaysia continues to develop, through proper inculcation and open dynamism (which we must continue to fight for and preserve), the country can remain open, liberal and inclusive even though the population at at some point may be 90% Muslims. You and your friends may want to go elsewhere but my children and I are not going anywhere. But we want to continue to live in a country that is open, liberal and inclusive.

  11. #11 by limkamput on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 10:04 am

    Ah Pek, precisely, I am a kafir. What we believe is based on our faith. Has it ever occurred to you that if I am a kafir to them, they are kafirs to me? But do I go around imposing and insisting that they follow my way? That is the basis of my argument. Take Selangor recent case as an example: if you choose not to watch Ella (sorry, spelling not sure) and instead want to pray, fast and watch religious programmes and sing religious hymns, what divine right have you got to tell others not to watch. Of course, may be your religion says so, but your religion is NOT my religion. So why must I follow your way? I think some of us never realise we are talking about dominance and subservience here.

  12. #12 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 10:24 am

    Nobody in this thread or in other threads has ever said that it has to be. undergrad2

    “Please read what you both have posted earlier and those posted a few minutes ago.” limkamput

    I read mine and it was after you made the statement.

  13. #13 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 10:31 am

    “My question is: must a country with 90% Muslim population become theocratic?” limkamput

    Please point out to me when I even suggested that it has to be – as in must be? It is unfortunate for the rest of us, at least for me that you’re fond of making your own assumptions about what you think others are saying and then moving from there to make your argument!

  14. #14 by Godfather on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 10:34 am

    Laws are made by people’s representatives. Any constitution can be changed by the people. Laws are supposed to be upheld by the government, but the government is also elected by the people (save for communism).

    Limkamput, let me give you a dose of reality. Let’s say in 50 years’ time your descendants have a piece of land in Kg Attap, and the religious authorities want to build a surau on it. Your descendants object because it is the ancestral property, and you have incurred sweat and blood to earn it. In short, your descendants think it is “priceless”. You seriously think you can win in a court of law then ? You seriously think that a court will rule in your favour based on the concept of no willing seller ? You think the state will not invoke compulsory acquisition in favour of the religious department ? You think you will gain sympathy in the court of public opinion if you try to publicise it ?

  15. #15 by Godfather on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 10:38 am

    You know why we have to remove this corrupt government ? It is precisely that this government’s policies have widened the gap between the rich and the poor. And when the poor is mainly from one race, you are merely inviting the inevitable to occur in the future – rebellion with religious overtones. The poor will have nothing to cling on except for their religious beliefs and when they become giddy with religion, nothing is going to get in the way, especially if their percentage keeps increasing.

    UMNO knows this, but they don’t care because they already have plans for their children in London, Perth, Singapore, etc. If you really want your children to have a fair shot for the future, we have to get rid of UMNO and their thieving ways.

  16. #16 by Godfather on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 10:45 am

    If secularism is to have a chance, we have to narrow the gap between the rich and the poor. UMNO can’t reform itself, so we must force the issue and get them out of government. Hopefully once they are out of government, they can come out with true leaders who don’t have to wave the keris, or shout slogans to survive. If the PR we elect can’t do it, then we have to elect others who can at the next GE.

  17. #17 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 10:48 am

    Limkamput,

    Let me re-word what I just wrote in more stronger terms.

    It is a waste of space and everybody’s time to in effect indulge in arguments with yourself, after attributing remarks said to have been made by others when no such remarks were made. It calls for unnecessary rebuttals followed by re-rebuttals on your part, more often than not abrasive in nature and distracting to many of us.

  18. #18 by AhPek on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 10:51 am

    Cheng On Soo,

    Please check your facts before making a factual statement. There are less than a handfull of nations with 100% Muslims (and not 99.99999%) and all of them are Islamic states or if you prefer theocratic states.And TURKEY IS NOT ONE OF THEM!!!!

  19. #19 by limkamput on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 10:55 am

    Godfather, what you are saying is that it is inevitable that the trend will move toward Islamic/theocratic (as Muslim population increases). My position is with proper inculcation and open dynamism (which we must start now), it is not necessary so. So 50 years from now, my land in Kg Attap will remain mine. Even if they want it for development, they will request so with civility and respect for the law and constitution. And if the judiciary is called to arbitrate, it will do so with professionalism and respect for diversity and individual rights.

  20. #20 by Godfather on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 10:59 am

    If you and I are alive by then, I will buy you bak-kut-teh in Raja Laut. Provided that our teeth are still intact.

  21. #21 by limkamput on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 11:01 am

    undergrad2, i have no desire to engage with you. You put up whatever you need to put up, i will do so with mine. Let others read and judge. I need not explain everything i understand or misunderstand. Even if I misunderstand, it could be you not able to write properly. I have already said so, go back and read line by line what you wrote and see whether one can imply what I implied. I do not want to proceed further with you. Where is Bernadette today?

  22. #22 by limkamput on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 11:03 am

    talking about teeth, i am suffering these few days, went to see dentist 4 times already, but ths discomfort is still there. yes i still want to see bakkutteh around even though i can only drink the soup.

  23. #23 by Godfather on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 11:05 am

    Talking about Turkey (and I don’t mean Kasim Amat’s master in Putrajaya), there have been attempts to push the constitution more towards a theocratic state in recent years. So far the courts have been ruling against all these attempts, and so far the parties pushing for the Islamic agenda have not dared push them to the point of requiring a nationwide referendum. Turkey’s inflation is now running over 20 pct, and the gap between the rich and the poor is widening. The EU is worried, and this is one of the reasons for not wanting to admit Turkey into the EU despite the years of application by the Turkish government.

    I would say that the chances of Turkey going more and more Islamic are greater than ever before.

  24. #24 by cheng on soo on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 11:11 am

    Come on Ahpek !
    I said nearly 100 % (88% or more) muslim. If U insist to find country with 100 % (not 99.99999 %) muslim, I think U cannot find one in this globalized world.
    Want to talk fact? ok 99.99999 %, means only 1 out of 10 million is not in the group intended. where to find, even can find, still cannot meet yr requirement??

  25. #25 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 11:11 am

    “undergrad2, i have no desire to engage with you.” limkamput

    You just did.

    “..go back and read line by line what you wrote and see whether one can imply what I implied.”

    Please quote to me which part of what I wrote that a reasonable person would imply the way you did.

    “I do not want to proceed further with you. Where is Bernadette today?” limkamput

    How convenient! And who may I ask is Benardete?

  26. #26 by limkamput on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 11:14 am

    Sorry, your response was so fast, i miss one of your posting. The fight for for a more open and liberal society i was talking about would certainly include change in government if needed.

  27. #27 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 11:15 am

    “My question is: must a country with 90% Muslim population become theocratic?” limkamput

    Please point out to me when I even suggested that it has to be – as in must be? It is unfortunate for the rest of us, at least for me that you’re fond of making your own assumptions about what you think others are saying and then moving from there to make your argument!

  28. #28 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 11:16 am

    You’re free of course to give it a pass! And we know why.

  29. #29 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 11:23 am

    Here, let me re-post what I posted earlier.

    “…I still have my doubts especially here in a country where the Muslims are a dominant group with not a few fundamentalists amongst the group.One would only have to look at Europe.Although there is no possibility of islamic states being formed there as yet they have made their presence felt …” Ahpek

    Correct me if I’m wrong. It is your belief that Malaysia is on track to becoming an Islamic state if it is not already one now – much like Marx’s dialectical materialism, an air of inevitability. May we know the foundation for that belief?

    You seem to have merged the issue of an Islamic state and the influence that Islamic religious fanaticism or extremism or values have on government policies. Rather than engaged in the semantics of what is an Islamic state, it is more useful to dwell on the issue of the growing influence of Islamic values in the lives of ordinary Malaysians. It is a fact that Islamic values have intruded into the private lives of its citizens today more so than it was in the 60s. And it started with Anwar Ibrahim in the mid 70s, the Prime Minister-in-Waiting today! Let’s not forget that.

    In the United States the influence of Christian evangelicalism over the country’s foreign policy has interesting ramifications and you may want to read “The Family” by Jeff Sharlett – released this year, and already a New York best seller.

    What is happening in Europe for some years now is the migration (legal and illegal) of Muslims from Eastern Europe, West Asia and the Middle East. You are right about the likelihood of an Islamic state emerging in Europe right now. Right now these migrants are living on the fringes of society in Western Europe and U.K. with high unemployment rates reported among them and substandard housing, lack of health care etc. Their increasing numbers today mean the governments can no longer ignore them. With the current higher birth rates reported among them and with a low birth rate and an aging population among Caucasians, who knows where the fast changing demographics will lead over the course of centuries? A Muslim Europe is not an impossibility given the fact that Islam is growing at a much higher and faster rate than all other religions.

  30. #30 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 11:30 am

    So where in what I wrote is there even the slightest reference to Malaysia likely to be a theocratic state once the Muslim population reaches 90??

  31. #31 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 11:31 am

    …i.e. 90%

  32. #32 by limkamput on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 11:32 am

    Now if you insist: read here,

    There will never be and can never be an Islamic state in Malaysia as the term ‘Islamic state’ is understood today – as is the case in countries like Pakistan. Undergrad2
    Never say never. It could become reality maybe in another 50 – 100 years when the population mix alters drastically from what it is today. godfather
    Hence my reference and emphasis to “today”. Undergrad2
    It is safe to interpret “today” as in “our life time” – even in our children’s lifetime some would maintain, until demographics change like you say it would over 50 to 100 years.
    Over 100 years through a policy of attrition, non-Malays would have migrated to other countries. Those that remain will exist on the fringe of a predominantly Muslim society, a permanent underclass without representation in the country’s institutions. I am counting on your children and your children’s childen and mine will not be among those.
    Didn’t you both imply that Islamic/theocratic state is inevitable (at least almost inevitable)? And the assumption both of you used was Muslim population. That per se determines Islamic/theocratic state. Now, I disagree with that. I said we still have a choice, and we must exercise the choice now, not later. Once the country has become theocratic, there is now way to reverse it. What we need is to contest and to challenge whose idea is better (even though the majority of the population are Muslim now and in the future) – to go for open liberal society or a closed theocratic state. If we do not fight, we lose by default.

  33. #33 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 11:33 am

    …and this is what I wrote earlier:

    “There will never be and can never be an Islamic state in Malaysia as the term ‘Islamic state’ is understood today – as is the case in countries like Pakistan.

    My 2-cents.”

  34. #34 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 11:35 am

    …which you have conveniently omitted so you could make your argument! That is typical.

  35. #35 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 11:38 am

    If this is not clear enough I don’t know what is:

    “There will never be and can never be an Islamic state in Malaysia …”

  36. #36 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 11:42 am

    Good night!

  37. #37 by limkamput on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 11:50 am

    Please read what I have just posted, undergrad2. I think you tacitly agreed with godfather as you went along. That was how I interpret. If I have misunderstood you, so be it.

  38. #38 by Godfather on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 12:24 pm

    Folks, we have bigger fish to fry, so I suggest that you guys adopt the Beatles’ “Let It Be”.

  39. #39 by AhPek on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 1:45 pm

    Cheng On Soo,

    I ask the question to limkamput ‘Name me a country with 100% muslims that is not an Islamic state. You came in to say you can by naming Turkey.Nearly 100% you said and now you say 88%.I did not pose those questions.I pose a question pertaining to countries with 100% Muslim population.
    Now you come out with another erroneos statement …there is no country with 100% Muslim population.This is something that is factual and one cannot argue to win over a factual statement.Only in a subjectives can one argue and win if one is persuasive enough with the use of logic and evidence.

  40. #40 by cheng on soo on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 2:30 pm

    When, one quote the population of a country is nearly 100% this or that. Nearly 100% can means anything from 85% to 99.9% depend in how one interprete it. It is an approximation. When a person say 100%, he usually mean 99% to 100% (unless that person emphasize it, like U)..
    Said what U want. I maintained that there is no one country ( country, not city, village, district, area, community, province etc) in this world that have 100 % (in strict sense, 99.99999 % is not good enough, following your definition) muslim.
    Even if U quote data from any sources that say 100%, (they still means not more than 99.99999% which stlll fail by your definition). muslim in any country (even well known, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuwait, Iraq, Bahrain, Qatar, Yemen, Oman, Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Libya, Turkey, Tunisia, Morocco, Algeria, Mauritania, Senegal, Sudan, Somali, Maldives, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Iran, Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Kirgizstan, Uzbekistan, etc)
    None lah 1

  41. #41 by AhPek on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 5:20 pm

    We all know, I am sure about creative accounting but I am now beginning to realise there are also creative debaters arriving in our midst in Unkle Lim’s blog!

    “Correct me if I am wrong.It is believed that Malaysia’s is on track to become an Islamic state if it is not already one now-much like Marx’s dialectical materialism, an air of inevitability.May we know the foundation of that belief?”.

    First I’ll start by saying that my starting remarks have no referance whatsoever to you.I find in you a learned man ever careful in choosing words carefully and most of your arguments are pretty persuasive and forceful.

    Whilst I cast doubt on your assertion that Malaysia is never (that’s a pretty strong word) going to be an Islamic State,it does not immediately suggest that I am asserting the opposite direction ie Malaysia will certainly become an Islamic State although I must add that I am not disinclined to object to the possibility that Malaysia could become one in the future.Becoming an Islamic State or a communist state for that matter is a number game.If enough people root for it, it will become.Islam Religion is always for the establishment of an Islamic state and it will advocate any means to achieve that ie whether by incremental steps or by deception (come what may). Lee Wan Yan has written about this at length and Jeffrey’s ‘ boiling the frog’ syndrome.Their arguments certainly have great impact on us to envisage such a possibility.It may not happen in 20 years time but who is to tell it won’t in 50 years time.
    This is where you and I differ, undergrad 2.You haven’t succeeded in persuading me that Malaysia will NEVER BE AND CAN NEVER BE AN ISLAMIC STATE.

  42. #42 by cheng on soo on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 5:39 pm

    In this fast changing world, when one talks about says, 30 years from now, anything can happen, so don’t be so sure to state that Malaysia will NEVER BE AND CAN NEVER BE AN ISLAMIC STATE.

  43. #43 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 6:55 pm

    “This is where you and I differ, undergrad 2.You haven’t succeeded in persuading me that Malaysia will NEVER BE AND CAN NEVER BE AN ISLAMIC STATE.” AhPek

    That’s right! Please tell the resident gatekeeper that was what I said and in unequivocal terms too! It is just a bare assertion, however, on my part and is not meant to be anything more than that. It is not meant to convince anybody.

    Like I said earlier, time is better spent in dealing with the current problems rather than speculate on what is to come say in the next five decades – especially when that helps to avoid the semantics of what is really an Islamic state etc. Allowing for the possibility of an Islamic state of whatever strain or form replacing the present secular government with its state religion (personally I prefer the term ‘official’ religion as I think the term ‘state’ would put it one notch higher than it really is) in the immediate foreseeable future or not so immediate foreseeable future, the fact that Islamic values have for years now permeated and are permeating almost every aspect of the lives of non-Muslims today is enough to convince many of us Malaysians to get out and stay out. It is that intrusive socially compared to the 1960s – we are not dealing with the political and the economic yet.

    I do not know if we have anything that we could call Malaysia’s foreign policy but if we do then the influence of Islamic values, would leave no small mark. There is a marked increase in anti U.S. sentiment since the invasion of Iraq. I used the case of Christian evangelicalism and its influence over U.S. foreign policy as an example of how religion could exert its influence in an area commonly regarded as secular.

    Yes, you’re right. It is hardly a convincing argument that Malaysia will not become an Islamic whatever that is. In my opinion, time is better spent in discussing the influence Islam has over government policies today. Let’s not wait for the coming of the Islamic state. Some may say it is already here i.e. Malaysia is already half an Islamic state and a full Islamic state with shariah law replacing the secular civil law based on the English common law, is impossible because of the sizeable non-Muslim minority.

    Non-Muslims non-Malays are packing up, making plans for a life elsewhere as we speak if they’ve not already done so.

  44. #44 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 19 June 2008 - 7:18 pm

    Godfather Says:

    Today at 12: 24.32 (6 hours ago)
    Folks, we have bigger fish to fry, so I suggest that you guys adopt the Beatles’ “Let It Be”.

    I am here to share my thoughts with others and hope in the exchange we all could learn something new each day. It is very distracting when someone insists on putting words into your mouth, deliberately manipulating your remarks to suit his needs so he could go on his usual tirade. If I were to keep quiet then it will stick.

    We do not need to go further than to ask this question:

    What sort of person is he who chooses to rely on what is purportedly implied when there are clear written expressions to the contrary?

  45. #45 by undergrad2 on Friday, 20 June 2008 - 6:18 pm

    Someone with a TOEFL score of 250?

  46. #46 by undergrad2 on Friday, 20 June 2008 - 6:20 pm

    More like an IQ of 70.

  47. #47 by alaneth on Sunday, 22 June 2008 - 12:50 am

    Before the GE, I see everybody wanting to ‘team-up’ voting for PAS, saying that PAS is still OK to vote…. no problem with Islam, no problem as PAS is not into it’s Islamic agenda.

    But I see PAS is still the Islamic Tiger in sheepskin. I voiced out strongly in this blog against PAS’s hidden agenda & for DAP & PKR to go alone or even DAP to go solo!

    Now 100 days after the GE, you see what I said is true!!!

    Now in this blog everybody lashing out at PAS!

  48. #48 by shamshul anuar on Monday, 23 June 2008 - 11:14 pm

    Dear Farish,

    I refer to your statement that said UMNO lost all Malay majority areas in West Coast of Peninsular Malaysia. With due respect to you, please do some fact finding first.

    Need I remind you that UMNO won in many Malay majority areas such as Sepang, Kubang Pasu, Pasir Salak, Lenggong, Kepala Batas, Larut, Padang Rengas, Kuala Pilah, and many others.

    The truth is that the political party that you really cherish , DAP, has been playing with racial sentiments by scaring away non Malays with regards to Keris issue. I saw the speech by Hishamuddin. At no time, he tried to intimidate non Malays or playing to the gallery.

    May I humbly remind you of what Raja Muda of Perak said 2 days ago in Kuala Kangsar. I mean no disrespect but I found that you are not being fair no UMNO.

    As for Alenath, religion and race are 2 potent forces. Perhaps you will know what PAS is all about. In the previous election, PAS openly distributed “risalah” reminding Muslims that it is haram to vote for non Muslim candidate. Yes Sir. It happened in the constituent where the current Menteri Besar of Perak won. His opponent is from MIC.

    PAS talks about Islamic state. But its actions is nothing but Islamic.

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