BY: Emergency Physician
Dear YB, please speak up for the many concerned parents regarding the deaths and deaths and deaths in the NS camps… it is very very worrying… authorities don’t seems to concern much
i am a doctor, working as a specialist in emergency department… i can somehow guess what had happened… it is ridiculous for a victim to die like that in Kem Semanggol with a simple answer of unknown fever… ridiculous!!! is a case of neglect and delay treatment..
the victim Too Hui Min… again… if not because of neglect and delay of treatment… WHY WHY WHY should a victim complaining of constipation die… it is not the answer…
i suspect it is the stupidity of the paramedic who did not refer her earlier to the hospital… believe me, i have seen many referral letters written by paramedic to the hospital with stupid diagnosis… just because he didn’t know what’s happening…he might have simply labeled her as having constipation. rather than seeing the non bowel opening as a warning sign to something sinister… he made the wrong diagnosis of keeping her in the camp further and worse still, gave her a pill which could make her worse!! If he is not qualified to make a decision like a doctor, at least he should refer!!!!
My heart really goes out in tears to those who have trusted their children into the hands of these people…only to bring back dead bodies
So, please YB, please speak up on our behalf..numerous letters had been written in Malaysiakini, even in other papers like the STAR, etc.. I for once, wouldn’t want to send my children, when the reach that age…to the hands of potential murderers.
#1 by i_love_malaysia on Wednesday, 14 May 2008 - 3:55 pm
NS itu NajiS !!!
#2 by i_love_malaysia on Wednesday, 14 May 2008 - 3:57 pm
NS= No Standard
#3 by kingkenny on Wednesday, 14 May 2008 - 4:00 pm
killer,
where are you? are you learning?
look, read, and hear what bloggers here have to offer towards your betterment as a person and ultimately your good-judgment & rational thinking behavior.
I apologize for calling you an idiot, but that is the fact to be honest with you. I will continue calling you so unless you respect bloggers here by showing more rational debate minus KFC & McD.
What sort of goodwill the government intended to foster is there for all to see!
Please be more sensible & sensitive. :)
#4 by i_love_malaysia on Wednesday, 14 May 2008 - 4:06 pm
In another scenario, if without LLT, there will be more deaths in NS camps, just let it be!!! so that it will quicken the demise of incompetent BN govn & its cronies & officials etc.!!! So LLT dont try to help BN govn to stay there too long and be a beggar Chairman!!! Please dont make us remember LLT as the Chairman of death camps but as a Chaiman with honour and dignity!!!
#5 by kingkenny on Wednesday, 14 May 2008 - 4:11 pm
Yah, I read the letter by LLT also.
I have to admit, it is bloody lame and he pointed his fingers to “others” also.
What will his masters do I wonder? Will they charged LLT for “sedition”? :)
GREAT DRAMA!!! :) ahhahahahahhaha
So laaaammmme………………..
#6 by kingkenny on Wednesday, 14 May 2008 - 4:12 pm
LLT = Lame LT
#7 by i_love_malaysia on Wednesday, 14 May 2008 - 4:12 pm
In World War II, We had infamous Jewish Death Camps in Germany, In year 2008, we have infamous NajiS Death Camps in Malaysia!!! what a sad case for all Malaysian!!!
#8 by i_love_malaysia on Wednesday, 14 May 2008 - 4:15 pm
LLT is learning very fast from AAB – pointing fingers to others except himself for all the rots and he will continue to be the Chairman as BN govn like to keep people who are having the same wavelength like them!!!
#9 by Godfather on Wednesday, 14 May 2008 - 4:22 pm
Why do you think I have for years called UMNO the den of thieves?
#10 by mysn1st on Wednesday, 14 May 2008 - 4:34 pm
YB,
I would like you to ask the government whether there are serious about this?
If Yes, a time table must be come out in order to iron out all this problems; or else as suggest by the DAP MP’s, cancel the National Services program immediately.
Please ask the related parties to ‘weak up’. Thank you.
#11 by yellowkingdom on Wednesday, 14 May 2008 - 5:14 pm
Below is an article to explain what may have occurred. I had spoken to a former trainer with an NS camp in Mersing. He served about 2 years and left to further his career elsewhere. When asked about eh conditions of the camp, he told me that the camp facilities were very much flawed in design and construction. The surau for instance, was built too close to the beach leaving the fine sand always encroaching into the surau. The food was so bad that the trainers and officers themselves leave the camp to eat outside at the restaurants. He stated categorically that the food was not fit for consumption. Perhaps, Citizen Nades or some investigative journalist could do a undercover story on this pathetic NS programme.
Refrigerate Cooked and Leftover Rice
By Pat Kendall, Ph.D., R.D.
Food Science and Human Nutrition Specialist
Colorado State University Extension
September 10, 1997
The Chinese take-out was great, but it’s now 2 a.m. and you’ve got a serious case of vomiting and diarrhea. Could it have been the fried rice? Quite possibly, and the culprit is often a bacteria called Bacillus cereus.
B. cereus comes in different forms. One of these forms is frequently found in uncooked rice. This form is particularly hardy and can survive cooking. If the cooked rice is then held at room temperature, the surviving bacteria may multiply and produce a heat-stable toxin that can survive acidic conditions and brief reheating, such as in stir frying.
In Oriental restaurants, large batches of rice are frequently left to cool at room temperature. Refrigeration is said to make the rice sticky, yielding a less desirable fried rice product, so rice is cooled at room temperature. This cooling, especially if prolonged, creates ideal conditions for the organism to grow and create a toxin.
As an example, in one outbreak involving a catered lunch served to children in two day care centers, cooked rice was cooled to room temperature before being placed in the refrigerator. The next morning it was pan-fried in oil with pieces of cooked chicken and delivered to the day care centers where it was held for one and one-half hours before being served. Within six hours 14 of the 67 children and staff who ate the fried rice became ill with nausea, vomiting, abdominal cramps and diarrhea. B. cereus was isolated as the culprit. What was disturbing was that neither the day care staff nor the restaurant food handlers were aware that cooked rice was a potentially hazardous food.
Luckily, B. cereus food poisoning usually only lasts six to 24 hours and is seldom associated with long-term complications. Regardless, any form of food poisoning is best avoided.
How does one avoid B. cereus food poisoning? Treat cooked rice as you would a cooked meat product. Refrigerate leftovers promptly in shallow containers to encourage rapid cooling. If you’re cooking rice for use later in fried rice, refrigerate the cooked rice in shallow containers within one hour of preparation. Keep cooked rice refrigerated until ready to stir fry. Once prepared, keep fried rice hot (above 140 degrees Fahrenheit) until ready to serve.
#12 by yellowkingdom on Wednesday, 14 May 2008 - 5:22 pm
Cooked Rice
Information about how to safely cook and prepare rice.
Many bacteria can be found within rice, and the most common bacteria associated with food poisoning from rice is called bacillus. Bacillus cereus is just one of the many bacillus species which is widespread in the environment and is commonly found in soil. For this reason it is often associated with grains and cereals (such as rice), spices and vegetables.
Unfortunately, unlike a large number of organisms associated with food poisoning, these bacteria are able to withstand the high temperatures associated with cooking and quick frying by forming protective ‘spores’. In this state bacteria are capable of surviving cooking and then become active once the food is cooled. In premises where large quantities of rice are frequently required, the normal practices involved with the production of rice increase the risk of these bacteria surviving the cooking process and being able to multiply in the cooked rice to dangerous levels.
Causes of food poisoning associated with species of bacillus bacteria have often been attributed to the bulk production of rice. Large containers of rice cooked at one time and cooled at room temperature in large containers, often for excessive hours prior to quick frying, lead to the increased likelihood of food poisoning.
This process must be avoided to prevent bacteria being able to multiply to dangerous levels. The following procedures should be adopted:
Purchase and storage of dry rice
Check date codes on purchase and ensure the packaging is intact.
Store unopened bags in a cool, dry and pest proof area.
When bags of rice are opened for use, the contents should be decanted from the opened bags into a suitable, cleansable and pest proof container.
Once opened ensure that the dried product is not allowed to get wet or moist.
Ensure good stock rotation.
Cooking
Rice should be cooked in small quantities as per the manufacturers’ instructions.
At least 75°C must be achieved during cooking.
Service
Rice should be served directly after cooking.
The size of your business may require the production of large quantities of rice. If this is the case and you need to cook larger quantities the safest practice is to maintain the rice at a temperature in excess of 63°C after cooking, until required for sale.
Cooling
Keeping rice hot (over 63°C) prior to service is usually satisfactory for boiled rice.
The quality of the rice may deteriorate after long periods at this temperature and cooling may be required. In addition, if stir-fried rice is required, this product is of better quality when fried from cold.
Cooling must be carried out quickly – always within one and a half hours.
To cool rice quickly remove rice from the hot container, divide the rice into small shallow containers and/or run the rice under running cold water in a clean sink.
On no account must the rice be left at room temperature in excess of one and a half hours.
After cooling the cooled rice must be refrigerated to 8°C or below and suitably covered to prevent contamination.
Rice must not be left at room temperature for excessive periods.
Reheating
If reheating is carried out, it is important to follow the procedures explained above.
Only reheat once.
Ensure the rice is piping hot throughout – a temperature in excess of 75°C should be achieved.
It is important to remember that quick frying does not always kill food poisoning bacteria which may be present, so care must be taken when preparing this product.
#13 by 7even Sins on Wednesday, 14 May 2008 - 5:36 pm
Sending our the school kids to NS as if giving gomen license to murder who apparently supported it strongly. When things happen, the gomen just keep mum as usual and act as if nothing had happened.
I will definitely not sending my kids to this stupid program when they reach the age. Charge me if the gomen wish as long as I don’t have to send my kids for the failed program.
Raising and nurture our children is never been an easy task especially to the non-bumi’s who are not supply with gomen tongkat but to stand strong with our feet just to make ends meet. Having our child killed due to some idiots’ negligence is like deep cuts to every parents’ heart which will never heal.
#14 by kingkenny on Wednesday, 14 May 2008 - 5:56 pm
Dear yellowkingdom,
very informative your article,
rest assured, you can be 1001% perfectly SURE that those “people” working the NS camps would not have such “knowledge” to “handle” food, what more to “handle” people, and young children at that!
Agreeable???!
That’s why it is in the state it is in now.
#15 by Irene on Wednesday, 14 May 2008 - 6:16 pm
I feel very sorry for the deceased family members and worst of all the parents. Being a parent myself I strongly oppose the NS program and I see no benefit from the children’s as many of my friends children who has attended NS come home with a notorious character after picking up from the NS group. I am very lucky my son was not selected but we have to speak out for others too.
I sincerly hope the MP will fight till the goverment drop the program and I am very sure the Minister who get involved in enforcing the NS program have earn enough.
Mr. Lee Lam Thye who was once a hero when he was in DAP please wake up and do not let the UMNO fellows chain your nose.
Mr. Lee stand up straight and act fast before more lifes are taken in exchange for certain Mininsters greet and corruption.
#16 by kingkenny on Wednesday, 14 May 2008 - 6:56 pm
L – A – M – E (lame) definition by merriam online webster:
Main Entry:
1lame Listen to the pronunciation of 1lame
Pronunciation:
\?l?m\
1 a: having a body part and especially a limb so disabled as to impair freedom of movement b: marked by stiffness and soreness
2: lacking needful or desirable substance : weak, ineffectual
3 slang : not being in the know : square
4 a: inferior b: contemptible, nasty
— lame·ly adverb
— lame·ness noun
keywords:
1. nasty
2. contemptible
3. “not in the know” (this is a good one!) :)
4. weak
5. ineffectual (precisely!!)
6. lacking substance (so very true!!)
7. what a lame duck! (my version!)
#17 by phat on Wednesday, 14 May 2008 - 7:07 pm
Just because the Umnoputras want to make millions of profit frm NS Projects, they don’t mind murdering innocent children. Next year my daughter will be finishing SPM. I’m praying she won’t be chosen, as we can’t put her life at risk too. Pls scrap the NS project.
#18 by Killer on Wednesday, 14 May 2008 - 7:55 pm
Folks
I am aware that there is a difference between driving / eating junk food and going to NS Camps, that is in the aspect of choice. But does is really matter ?
You are saying that if our roads are dangerous you have a choice of not driving and take care of our safety by other alternative means of transportation.
But this is an idiotic argument. How many Malaysians would resort to this choice of not driving? Instead we would ask the government to take the approporiate steps to make the roads safe for driving again.
Your argument of shutting down NS camps because of the deaths is akin to asking the government to ban driving because of the bloodbaths on our roads.
I am also find it hard to phantom the typical Malaysian parent’s mindset of not allowing their kids to attend NS camp for some of the lamest reasons. They don’t understand how the camps are being run or the effectiveness of the NS program. They don’t talk to the kids who had attended the course. They keep harping for Bangsa Malaysia but yet do not wish to contribute to that concept by alowing their kids attend the NS camp.
My suggestions are simple.
1. Review the effectiveness of the program. This has to be done by an independent panel. I wouldn’t want any politicians in at all.
If the review says it has NOT been beneficial, then I am all for scapping it. But if the review says it has been useful, then go to Step 2.
2. Review the current system to find out the weaknesses and make a comprehensive recommendations on how to overcome them.
#19 by Killer on Wednesday, 14 May 2008 - 8:24 pm
I am not a medical doctor but even using the newspaper reports it is not difficult to make some educated guess on the cause of death.
I don’t think yellowkingdom’s reasons as the possible cause. The guys who are running the camp are ex-service people (police and army) and they have more than enough experience in managing food supply for a large group of people.
I don’t think food as the source of the problem. If that is the cause then we would have the entire camp in the hospital. Just like what happens in our school / hostel canteens.
Many of these problems are seems to be long-standing ones and not something that would have developed within a short period of time at a NS camp. As such, it would be easy to check a student’s medical history.
Outbound school is not a good comparison with NS as the duration of training is very short (a few days to 2 or 3 wks max).
I think the NS folks should understand the nature of a typical urban / semi-urban Malaysian kid today. They are not the tough kids of yester years but pampered and spoiled by their parents. They live in aircond environment, dislike physical exercises or even venturing out under hot sun. They have very low tolerance for physical and mental stress. Many of these kids face emotional issues such as the loss of privacy and living in spartan conditions. Some of them have been so pampered that they cannot live without the daily dose of TV and other forms of entertaintment.
However much I hate to say this, NS authorities should review the condition of the camp to make it more comfortable and also ensure counsellors are available to detect and provide support for those kids unable to handle the change in their environment.
Making the kids take shower in cold water, exposing them to the jungle, hard physical exercises and marches are not suitable for kids today.
Although NS trainers have experience in handling trainees in a camp environment, handling kids in such a large group is a different kettle of fish. These kids are far fragile and less developed than adults. Programs in other countries (if they have similar programs or even summer camps) should be studied.
Finally the length of the training should be reviewed too. I think it can be cut short by sticking to core objectives of national integration.
#20 by chiakchua on Wednesday, 14 May 2008 - 8:58 pm
We are saddened with the newly reported death. How would the parents take it? Uncle KIT must bring it to the attention of the ‘stupid’ BN cabinet in the parliament.
They are the arrogant fools who upset the racial harmony in Malaysia, then they try to salvage (so called) it by having the NS instead of ‘ketuanan rakyat’ policies, with ‘lobang to currupt’ in mind (everyone knows who are the one who got all the contract for the NS camps, facilities, etc..). They placed a good HEAD (Tan Sri) but no competent soldiers to run the camp efficiently. That’s why many unfortunate incidents happened. Many things are actually ta’boleh on this boleh-land!
It is best to stop the NS especially during this hard time. Promote racial-harmony through fair deeds by the government (not only say but must been ‘seen’ to be fair), through fair treatments to all schools and students irrespective of race and religion; the over-zealous ‘moral police’ in many schools are turning non-muslim students away and building up resentment towards them. How could this promote racial harmony?
#21 by lopez on Wednesday, 14 May 2008 - 9:11 pm
the wage earners complains about to much crime so the MP says lets have better policing….ah..one smart one says let built more police stations….
The wage earner complains to much leapk and ramshit in the city and towns, the MP say …ah no discipline from home , all loyal citizens busy building nation no time for kids…..lets give them discipline….ah yes one MP says let make like army camp and be discipline
the wage earner says rice too expensive, the MP says ah this one is world problem lets buy more now before we starve our loyal subjek.
the wage earner says toolll too expensive, ah the MP says this one is your fault you should take the bus if you cannot afford, you must live within your means be prudent , please.
#22 by pjboy on Wednesday, 14 May 2008 - 9:19 pm
Our NS is once more a laughing stock at the tax-payers expense but somebody is getting fatter by the day with the increasing supplies of apparels, boots, catering, toiletries, logistics, etc (reminds me a bit like MAS Catering). How much tax-$ has been misused so far?
We must also ask ourselves: In what way will NS contribute to the nation? Be realistic, at this day & age. I think we were also not well prepared for NS.
Social Service (SS) would be much better put to use as human-resource than NS. Not everyone was born to be Rambo. Confine NS to school drop-outs, juvenile criminals (example)…rather than “encouraging” them to joining police/army (why do you think our police standards are so low). Some even end up as mat-rempits or snatch-thieves. If NS is preached to make every Malaysian a better person, why not take in these people (I don’t mean to categorise insentitively). Statistically, most drop-outs come from poor & broken families. I can’t believe no MP thought of that.
The NS will also better prepare them to continue to join the security forces – better trained & educated. It’s well known that even the US Marine Corps have a fleet of engineers, etc. Most having university degrees even! No need to mention the British Brigades or even the S’pore Elite Commandoes.
I say stop the NS for now – save the nation hundred of millions for a start – surely there are more important issues to channel the money saved (& I don’t mean sending another idiot to space). At least use the money to buy more food for the poor, more so now.
PLEASE review, revise & improve the NS before continuing further. Who will die next? This is what I can suggest to Tan Sri LLT, Chairman of NS. I would have thought a man of his stature & respect would have thought of this.
It is now not only the death of an NS trainee…but also many other cases of rape, bully, etc in the past. I am sure there are many more unknown cases that are not reported – perhaps less critical than death & rape.
National integration begins in school, as early as pre-school. Not at 16 & above!
Also since when teaching the youth to be better citizens a job of the government. This is the job of every parent the day they were born & at home, not at death-camps.
#23 by pjboy on Wednesday, 14 May 2008 - 9:42 pm
Dear YAB LKS
I support the idea of DAP or PR setting up a Fund for NS Trainee Calamities to help support those who suffered the loss of loved ones. It may not bring back the loved one but it will help them to cover certain unexpected costs arising from the death, or even for medical bills, etc. Death is by far the most crucial calamity of the NS.
I am sure RPK will challenge everyone to beat the record of the Bloggers Fund. My RM 1 is ready. Just have to start it. If all EPF contributors make RM 1 only, we could have potentially 10 Million collected in 1 day. That’s true people power.
The ball is in your court to get the fund raising going.
#24 by kingkenny on Wednesday, 14 May 2008 - 10:07 pm
Dear dear killer,
I honestly think you should refrain from making any more debate here or pose your suggestions. In fact, I just now realized that you have been missing the point the whole while you are here in this blog and in your life here Malaysia. You are an idiot and an ignorant one at that. Why? Because:
1. You have missed the whole point of what had saddened so many people in this blog & the whole country over.
2. You have ignored the many facts laid bare in front of you that this is indeed a ‘corrupt country’, why do you reckon that PM Abdullah first slogan was eliminating ‘Rasuah’ when he first took mandate to lead? :)
3. You are arguing not based on facts, results, and merit but based on your presumed good character, qualification, experiences and the trustworthiness of “Retired captains & generals”. Do generals cook, may I ask??!
4. Don’t say something that is in direct contradiction with what you preach. As youngsters of this generation are a “pampered” lot (according to you), then certainly a different device or system should be implemented to maximize their potential. An idiot layman like you knew, the government should do better. What do you expect of others kids? Train them like Mike Tyson?
5. And, you should know that even “retired captains & generals” are experienced, how sure are you sure canteen staffs & workers are too? There is a government directives that say food handlers are required to attend a Food Handling Course and at the end of it get Certified. Basically it covers food hygiene. Can they produce the cert? What about typhoid injection card? Can they produce that either? Those canteens are tendered to family members and staffs are hired to work it, so you see, generals don’t cook, idiot!
6. Nobody here said or suggest driving be banned because of too many fatalities, ONLY that Kopi-O license should NOT retain as a common PRACTICE in Malaysia to lower fatalities, conflicts and improve COMPETENCY.
7. I believe also your father and elders came from the Outward Bound School era, even though they may not attend. Ask your elders is it 2 weeks better than 3months now IN OUR CURRENT SITUATION??! We are talking about precious human lives here, moron.
8. And when you say that those “experienced” generals were used to serve food to a large group of people, well, I think you should think before you blurt, these are 18 year olds we are talking about here and they are no soldiers! My dad was a soldier, believe me, eating in a kenduri is not the norm.
9. To review the effectiveness of the system you say? When a girl was raped by a camp warden and another was poisoned and died, what sort of review are you talking about?! Very plainly, we lack proper qualified human resource at this moment in time to conduct this NS thingy! How would you like it, if your daughter is a victim??!
10. Lastly (relief for you), I attended SK Rendah and Menengah, I can speak in a Malay slang, have a Malay abang angkat in Machang, numerous funny Indian friends and of course my own yellow type of friends. Let me tell you, killer, I don’t need NS to tell me the difference of patriotic & unpatriotic, just & unjust, corrupt & incorrupt, effective & ineffective, united & disunited and of course the difference between an idiot and a smart guy.
Please don’t harassed and/or belittle the intelligence of bloggers here, thank you.
#25 by lakilompat on Wednesday, 14 May 2008 - 10:12 pm
PL is eating Rakyat money, but in return, the M’sian who sent their childrens to these NS camp are given lousy & cheapskate attention & training. The main sufferer is the parents & the kids who underwent the agony.
The govt. are doing a weak childrens cleansing, so that all Malaysian children will be stronger, those weak children will be punished with death at the NS camp.
Good Job Najis, see how many life died today for ur little toy program.
And PL will be laughing all the way to the bank, with all the benefits claimed from the Malaysian pockets or Petronas.
#26 by cheng on soo on Wednesday, 14 May 2008 - 10:15 pm
Just to say kingkenny post on killer, well said, SYABAS!
How many countries got an NS program, without a medical check up, & so kelam kabut as ours?
#27 by lopez on Wednesday, 14 May 2008 - 10:16 pm
Many people thinks getting their children into NS can make tough people and good citizens, I think so not always so.
Not just because of the deaths caused by inexperiece people, the world ‘s is changing and changing fast. If the phrase survivalof the fittest impressed you then you have totally disregard your kid’s interest which is just 17 and many of them are matured in thought already., todays kids are learning ways faster than their parents because of mass media and the various mediums of info format.
Some of our MP’s are a reactive bunch of idiots, always responding to cries of the public and only through happenings created or dramatised by some local reporters.
The NS is not good for the youngsters, you want them to be great people just built more schools, filled them up with good education system, employ experts not wanabes and wishful talking idiots.
Let get REAL for once, stop the experimentation it is leading no where, only short term gain by some people.
If you buggers think , avoiding and accepting cancellation is soft then you are not rational in thought but sheer stubborness begets, the parents who think so is good for them but may not be good for the kid .then the old men go h\join the territorial army and earn a few strip yourself first…iby the way it call lead by example.
For all i know even soldiers themselves yearn their child be not in the arm forces.
#28 by StevePCH on Wednesday, 14 May 2008 - 10:42 pm
i truly agree with the writer. i will not send my children to NS. that’s for sure. I would rather waste the rm2000 fine and send them to outward bound or something else.
are the kids and ooperators ready ? i really don’t think they are. ran by a bunch of Cronies LC
#29 by kingkenny on Wednesday, 14 May 2008 - 10:47 pm
cheng on soo,
thank you…pai seh laaa :)
#30 by lakilompat on Wednesday, 14 May 2008 - 10:52 pm
“built more schools” Any Malaysian wanted to become a teacher? or any childrens when they grow up as M’sian wanted to be a teacher?
teach all the craps which onli in Malaysia can be used. And they assign u to all the Kampong Kampong separated from ur family.
#31 by lakilompat on Wednesday, 14 May 2008 - 10:55 pm
With all these increases in food prices, fuel prices, do u think become teacher is still relevant? They will soon import all the 3rd world teach which is much cheaper. In Malaysia most teach have share in tuition center, some even open tuition center secretly this is forbidden or prohibited.
#32 by Killer on Wednesday, 14 May 2008 - 11:11 pm
KingKenny :
I am not about to descend to your level by resorting to name-calling.
I think you missing the point that if these people are corrupted and as inefficient as you had claimed, then we would be seeing people dying by dozens not only in NS camps but also in the army and police training camps.
Anyway you are the one who had stated “THEY ARE DRINKING BLOOD AND EATING HUMAN FLESH….RARE!!!!!!!!!”…..As such I will conclude my arguments as it is impossible to debate with an irrational person.
#33 by Pocket on Wednesday, 14 May 2008 - 11:12 pm
If the National Service is so great and too be proud (and safe), let have a check on Ministers, Menteri Besar and Senior Government Officers, how many of them (these Jokers) are sending their childrens to the National Service?
Have any of us heard their childrens are attending the National Service?
P/S: They not even sending their childrens to local primary schools, secondary schools and universities? A good example is our “honourable” Education Minister who sending his childrens to Australia for study!!! A very well “responsible” Education Minister!!!
#34 by kingkenny on Wednesday, 14 May 2008 - 11:50 pm
“Just look at the comments made by yourself and lakilompat, both of you sound as though you guys urgently require some psychiatric help.” – killer
===================================================
Conclude your argument?….well, you don’t have to, you have already lost your basis.
Soldiers and police force in this country are served better and more humane meals in their own respective institutions. Moreover they are not bound to have the meals served to them.
Do the NS trainees have any choice other than the meals served to them?
You are so farcical & hypocrite. :)
#35 by kingkenny on Wednesday, 14 May 2008 - 11:52 pm
And by the way killer, a corrupt person is actually drinking blood and eating rare flesh!
I still believed in it :)
#36 by kingkenny on Wednesday, 14 May 2008 - 11:59 pm
killer,
it also seem to me that your “high” philosophy is to see dozens of death before some thing could be considered grave.
I wonder how it had gone to that state? Irrational maybe? :)
#37 by Killer on Thursday, 15 May 2008 - 1:05 am
kingkenny
Yes, you have won and that your arguments are logical, rational and simply the best solution for the NS problem. In fact it is a work of a genius par Einstein’s “On the Electrodynamics of Moving Bodies”….!! Bravo….I am going to nominate you for the Nobel Physics Prize this year.
#38 by lupus on Thursday, 15 May 2008 - 7:44 am
# Killer Says:
“I am aware that there is a difference between driving / eating junk food and going to NS Camps, that is in the aspect of choice. But does is really matter ?”
Lupus:
Yes, where there is a life to consider and where it is law to send them off with a very good chance of dying. The track record of NS death is not very good since 2003. We are not talking about people saying “I want to go to NS”. It about people being FORCED to go and losing their lives. You have shown in this statement that these young lives mean very little to you. These parents, esp the non-bumi ones have put so much hope, effort and love into those kids only to be cut short by a holiday camp. I WANT YOU TO LOOK THESE PARENTS IN THEIR EYES AND TELL THEM THAT THEIR CHILD HAVE LOST THEIR LIFE FOR A GOOD CAUSE. NS is a cause that should NEVER CAUSE LIVES.
# Killer Says:
“You are saying that if our roads are dangerous you have a choice of not driving and take care of our safety by other alternative means of transportation.
But this is an idiotic argument. How many Malaysians would resort to this choice of not driving? Instead we would ask the government to take the approporiate steps to make the roads safe for driving again.”
Lupus:
Why idiotic ? You said it – Malaysian DO HAVE A CHOICE of not driving – you have missed the point entirely – the laws allows Malaysian the CHOICE to drive or not to drive. Let’s make it simple for you to understand
Driving laws of Malaysia = you can drive or not drive, as long as you have a license.
NS laws of Malaysia = your name is called up, you must report of training.
As to asking the Govt to take appropriate steps of making the road safer? A easy task for anyone here – Is there a requirement for cars in Malaysia legislation, act, laws that tell the car industry in Malaysia the min safety requirement ? How about you try and get the Malaysian Govt to adopt just one requirement to make our cars alittle safer – EURO NCAP 64km/hr frontal impact requirements. It only one of the hundreds of legal safety requirements that overseas cars are subjected to. It should not be hard to bring it into law as BN can just rip off the laws. Just one. You try it and get it done before the next GE.
# Killer Says:
“Your argument of shutting down NS camps because of the deaths is akin to asking the government to ban driving because of the bloodbaths on our roads.”
Lupus:
Again let me make it simple for you to understand
NS Camp = I tell you that you have to go and if you don’t go, I will arrest you and drag your a** to camp
Driving bloodbath = Idiots choose to drive like idiots, THEY CHOOSE TO DRIVE LIKE MORONS and kill people and contribute to the bloodbath.
# Killer Says:
‘I am also find it hard to phantom the typical Malaysian parent’s mindset of not allowing their kids to attend NS camp for some of the lamest reasons. They don’t understand how the camps are being run or the effectiveness of the NS program. They don’t talk to the kids who had attended the course. They keep harping for Bangsa Malaysia but yet do not wish to contribute to that concept by alowing their kids attend the NS camp.”
Lupus:
Again, you have missed the point entirely. Read the statements posted by LKS. ANOTHER DEATH – while you can argue that no typical Malaysian parent’s would not support the idea of NS – I find it HARD TO PHANTOM ANY TYPICAL MALAYSIAN PARENT MINDSET TO SEND THEIR KIDS TO DIE IN SOME NS CAMP FOR SOME OF THE LAMEST RESONS. Bangsa Malaysia goals should not cause such a young life to be cut short.
# Killer Says:
“My suggestions are simple.
1. Review the effectiveness of the program. This has to be done by an independent panel. I wouldn’t want any politicians in at all.
If the review says it has NOT been beneficial, then I am all for scapping it. But if the review says it has been useful, then go to Step 2.
2. Review the current system to find out the weaknesses and make a comprehensive recommendations on how to overcome them.”
Lupus:
It has already failed the effectiveness program – people are dying since 2003 – question is how many more must die ? AND NO POLICITIAN CHILD OR GRANDCHILD have ATTENDED NS CAMP. You don’t need a review to tell you that X amount of death is NOT a benefit to us.
Furthermore – it shows how little you understand about NS camps. You maybe a product of a NS camp – who knows ? I have inside knowledge of oversea military initial courses aka boot camps (and not in ASEAN countries and yes I served in the military as well), most of these young Malaysian should be able to fair very well. The only different I see is since 2003, the death rate is one of the highest and this is usually an indication of something is very wrong. A death of a boot camp usually follows an inquiry (usually finding are out within the year) and rare to see anyone not held accountable. Reviews are automatically done in the event of any death and the programs or parts of it, suspended until the investigation is reported. Staff are trained before they become instructor in these camps – not any tom, dick or harry who has a rank. These are qualified, purpose trained military instructor to handle young men and women and to ensure safety of these young people. Afterall, dead people have not benefit. I like to see what sort of training these NS instructor have. Have they had a background check too ? Do they have a criminal background eg. are they sex offenders ?
So, you tell me and in fact, I dare you to publish any full inquiry finding on this blog of one NS death that identify the cause.
#39 by Godfather on Thursday, 15 May 2008 - 8:00 am
Killer:
Stop defending the indefensible. Until and unless your UMNO masters demonstrate a level of competence and transparency, the NS programme should be suspended. One death is simply one too many.
The usual UMNO way of doing “bisnes” has to stop – especially when it involves innocent kids.
#40 by kerishamuddinitis on Thursday, 15 May 2008 - 8:10 am
KILLER just doesn’t get it!
It is between forced and voluntary, where the Malaysian Death Camps are forced upon the rakyat. Once selected, you go or you get charged.
It is about about having been given enough time to get it right! Even if there were teething problems that led to deaths at the start of the program, the authorities should have gotten it RIGHT to prevent further deaths! KILLER should know the threshhold allowable before the entire system needs to be reviewed – ONE SINGLE DEATH, that all it should take for the rakayt to demand a comprehensive review and full investigations! NOT 16 deaths, NOT 20 DEATHS. JUST ONE!
It is about objectives and a very publicised KEY OBJECTIVE was nation-building and integration of the races! The Malaysian Death Camps is a STUPID IDEA to foster better relationships between the races. If the EDUCATION SYSTYEM and SCHOOLS which hold our children captive for up to 13 years cannot do this when these children of all races spend an average minimum of 5 hours interacting in the classroom, in the canteen, on the field, in the gym and on the game courts, HOW IN THE WORLD CAN 3 FREAKING MONTHS DO WHAT 13 YEARS of moral studies, singing the NegaraKu every Monday morning, studying Melayu or in Melayu, sharing meals, eating together, playing and competing together, helping each other in the most important challenges in their young student lives – EXAMS!?
It is about Malaysia Boleh! Everything Can! Gaya ada, isi tak ada! Form is ‘impressive’, the substance is rotten!From all these deaths, we have concluded that the very heart of the program is ROTTEN! How can you talk about nation-building and integrating the races (all very noble) but at the same time the people responsible for this entire program ARE themselves ROTTEN! A system is a system! It can’t be wrought with such problems unless the people who conceived it, those who are overseeing it, those who are managing it, those who are implementing it and those who are MAKING MONEY out of it are both INCOMPETENT and ROTTEN!
Like it was posted earlier, a private, professionally run outfit would have been crucified, quartered and thrown to the wolves to devour had just ONE DEATH OCCURED! Just one and there would have been a thorough investigation TO PREVENT A REPEAT! But with our Malaysian Death Camps there have been 16 deaths, some even say here 21 deaths, OVER 5 years! When will this STOP!
KILLER, how much are you being paid to play your role as an agent of change on this blog? We all know there are people who ARE PAID write to blogs to influence opinion, discussion threads and debates. I don’t mind if you want to give a balanced view BUT when you push through your arguements which do not evenly address the issues, then you are just being plain and simple yet another BN/UMNO running dog doing the bidding of his master.
LKS,
Let’s start this so that the parents CAN take affirmative action to show they want the camps shut down NOW!
CONTRIBUTE RM1 TO SCRAP THE MALAYSIAN DEATHS CAMPS!
#41 by ktak on Thursday, 15 May 2008 - 8:59 am
Parents entrust their sons/daughters to the government (ministry of defence) for NS training and would expect the safety aspect of the NS training to be adhered to at all time by the trainers and officers in charge of NS training.
Hence, all the parents want from the govt is the accountability of the training death: assurance that the death cases during NS training are properly investigated (preferably by independent committee of inquiry) to determine the cause of death and also to enable us to take all the necessary measures so that what can be prevented will not happen again.
If there is negligence found by those in charge of these trainees and those who do not adhere or comply to the operating procedure during NS training, then Attorney-General’s Chambers should proceed with criminal charges against these officers.
National Service call to parents
http://harismibrahim.wordpress.com/2008/05/13/national-service-call-to-parents/
That Lee Lam Thye fella and ‘the system’
http://harismibrahim.wordpress.com/2008/05/14/that-lee-lam-thye-fella-and-%e2%80%98the-system%e2%80%99/#comments
Singapore “NSmen death” search results from MinDef website:-
http://www.ns.sg/nsPortal/portlets/Search/iterate.do;NSPJSESSIONID=2l4pLrGVbgfZ82h75HHn9XQTSvvb2lXrWfkJDXRPZQV5y6zcvNbJ!-2130695426?pageNumber=2&pageSize=50&startIndex=0
#42 by taiking on Thursday, 15 May 2008 - 9:13 am
“On the issue of national service, Najib said the Government would continue with the programme as it promotes unity although there were accidents and fatal cases.” – Star Online today, 15 May 2008.
He is just joking.
#43 by TheWrathOfGrapes on Thursday, 15 May 2008 - 10:05 am
/// However on second thought the idea of training so many people to handle weapons must have persuaded them to back track and thus the current NS program has turned into an Outward Bound school program!! ///
AhPek, I think what freaked them out is the idea of training so many non-Malays to handle weapons…
/// Outward Bound School in Aberdovey England where the first outward bound school is borned…///
I think the first OBS was in Gordonstoun in Scotland in the 1930s. BTW, Aberdovey is in Wales, not England…
;)
#44 by i_love_malaysia on Thursday, 15 May 2008 - 10:12 am
Ladies/Gentlemen,
While we remember those who died as a result of NajiS Death Camps, we should not forget about those who have broken legs and hands and other parts of their bodies which they will suffer for life (these will not be reported compared to death of trainees) which wont be the same again after the camp!!! Read my lips, Ms Too Hui Min will not be the last!!! I wonder how those people who are responsible can sleep in peace while there’s a time bomb undefused!!! May be these ex-service men had seen the worst i.e. soldiers killed while under training or during warfare with communist etc. !!!
#45 by i_love_malaysia on Thursday, 15 May 2008 - 10:15 am
Killer Says:
Today at 01: 05.29 (9 hours ago)
kingkenny
Yes, you have won and that your arguments are logical, rational and simply the best solution for the NS problem. In fact it is a work of a genius par Einstein’s “On the Electrodynamics of Moving Bodies”….!! Bravo….I am going to nominate you for the Nobel Physics Prize this year.
—————————–
Killer,
Dont be emotional here and be sarcastic!!! dont just say it with your mouth but with your heart and you will learn.
#46 by kingkenny on Thursday, 15 May 2008 - 10:21 am
Dear lupus,
WELL SAID!
If our country has the RIGHT HUMAN RESOURCE AND/OR TECHNICAL EXPERTISE, NS would be GREAT!
No arguments with you!
#47 by DAPPKR on Thursday, 15 May 2008 - 10:29 am
One death after another
Well NS had any good media attention
When it started, it had cases of brawling, raping and what not.
Now that its going on “smoothly”, human lifes are at stake.
If the purpose of NS is to instill unity among the younger generations, than the DPM got the whole concept wrongly.
NS creates an even highly tensed competitive environment between the kids and that could lead to even utterly battered misunderstandings.
Scrap the NS immediately and instill something at school level that could allow inborn of unity. Create co-cu that are compulsory with rules and regulation that will make sure they attend it.
NS is definitely not the answer to create understanding or unity among the youngsters.
#48 by kerishamuddinitis on Thursday, 15 May 2008 - 10:39 am
Killer,
Time for reflection, don’t you think?
There’s a saying in Chinese – ‘fall down and yet grab a handful of sand in the act.’ That’s what your concluding statement is. You have lsot by your own admission but do not know how to lose gracefully – just like BN, UMNO, MCA, MIC and Gerakan. And you do not have the intellectual ability or credentials to nominate your cat for the Nobel Prize. You haven’t measured up at all with your arguements in this thread, let alone challenge the cyrstal-clear logic posted by LUPUS in refuting each and every one of your emotionally-laden, ass-kissing statements.
Also time to change your handle – you are KILLING yourself with your kind of twisted thinking, logic and values.
Go comment on the Ali Rasuah, Toyol and Mud Tahi blogs…they love ass-kissing.
#49 by kingkenny on Thursday, 15 May 2008 - 10:40 am
Dear killer,
I sincerely and honestly hope that your good intentions and philosophy here doesn’t get too PERSONAL against (VS) the current serious situation of the Rakyat and young citizens of Malaysia are facing.
I thank you if I must if you are going to vote me for a Nobel prize, but to be frank, we are the losers in this current predicament, while the winners are those corrupted irresponsible profit motivated people running this and running that program in this country out of taxpayers money; i.e. your money and mine and those parents whose children has died!
#50 by kingkenny on Thursday, 15 May 2008 - 10:55 am
>>KILLER, how much are you being paid to play your role as an agent of change on this blog? We all know there are people who ARE PAID write to blogs to influence opinion, discussion threads and debates.<< – - -kerishamuddinitis
===================================================
He is being paid enough to actually ignore all the 16 deaths, not counting road fatalities, KFC, McD & etc.
killer,
if you are in USA, and it happens that one of these KFC & McD guys came upon your comments, well, you’ll have a lot of explaining to do, man. Think before you blurt.