Real Life Scenario
Madam Ong is a 52-year-old lady with a twelve-year-history of hypertension and diabetes. She complained of generalised lethargy, lower limb weakness, swelling and pain. She brought along her cocktail of medications for my scrutiny. Her regular medications included the oral antidiabetics metformin and glicazide and the antihypertensives amlodipine and irbesatan. Madam Ong also had a few episodes of joint pains three months ago for which she had seen two other different doctors. The first doctor suspected rheumatoid arthritis and started her on a short course of the potent steroid prednisolone. Thereafter, she developed increasing lower limb swelling for which a third doctor prescribed the powerful diuretic frusemide.
Madam Ong was not on regular follow-up for hypertension and diabetes. Additionally, she has been re-filling her supply of steroids and diuretics at a pharmacy nearby with the purpose of saving up on the consultation charges.
I took a more complete medical history and performed a thorough physical examination. I concluded that this lady’s health was in a complete mess.
She was under sound management by the family physician until the day she defaulted follow up and was started on prednisolone by a doctor who was unaware she was diabetic. The steroid probably helped in relieving her arthritic pains though the suspicion of rheumatoid arthritis was never proven serologically.
However, it also worsened her sugar and blood pressure control and weakened her immune system.
Her legs swelled up because of the fluid retentive properties of the steroids. In addition, early signs of cellulitis were showing up around her legs due to a weakened immune function. The diuretic prescribed by the third doctor helped a little with the swollen limbs but she became weak from the side effects of diuretics.
Madam Ong’s problems escalated when she decided to forgo her doctors’ opinion altogether and decided to self-medicate simply by collecting all her medications from the pharmacist who supplied them indiscriminately. Unknowingly, the pharmacist had added to the lady’s problems in spite of the wealth of knowledge the pharmacist must have possessed.
The above scenario is a fairly common scene in the Malaysian healthcare. We see here an anthology of errors initiated by doctors, propagated by the patient’s health seeking behavior and perpetuated by a pharmacist.
Noteworthy but Untimely Move
The Ministry of Health is set to draw a dividing line between the physician’s role and the pharmacist’s, restricting physicians to prescribing and according dispensing rights solely to the pharmacists.
Such a move virtually has its effects only upon doctors in the private practice and particularly the general practitioner who relies on prescription sales for much of one’s revenue.
Doctors prescribe and pharmacists dispense. It’s the international role of each profession and very much the standard practice in most developed countries.
The Ministry of Health however, has failed to take into account the local circumstances in mooting this inaugural move in Malaysian healthcare. The logic and motive behind the Ministry of Health’s proposal is in fact laudable, but only if the Malaysian healthcare scenario is more organized and well-planned.
Spiraling Healthcare Costs
In the United Kingdom, all costs are borne by the National Healthcare Services. In the United States, despite all the negativity painted by Michael Moore’s Sicko, most fees are paid for by health insurance without which one cannot seek treatment. In these countries and many European nations, there is hardly any out-of-pocket monetary exchange between patients and their clinicians.
This however is not the case for Malaysia. Most patients who visit a private clinic are self-paying clients. The costs of consultation and medications are real and immediately tangible to patients. A visit to the general clinic for a simple upper respiratory tract infection may set one back by as much as RM 50.00 inclusive of consultation and medication. Most clinics these days are charging reasonable sums between RM 5 to RM 15 for consultation. Some are even omitting consultation charges altogether in view of the rising costs of basic healthcare. The introduction of the MOH’s ‘original seal’ to prevent forgery of drugs contributed much to this.
There is no denial that most clinics rely on the sales of medications in order to remain financially viable. From my personal experience, the charges for medications by private clinics are not necessarily higher than pharmacies. In fact, since each practitioner has a stockpile of one’s own preferred drugs, the cost price of the medications can be much lower than that obtained by the pharmacists who need to stockpile a wide variety of drugs. It is therefore a misconception that pharmacies will provide medications to patients at a much lower cost all the time for all medications.
Retracting dispensing privileges from the private clinics will only force practitioners to charge higher consultation fees in order to sustain viability of their practices. In the end, the patients end up paying a greater cost for the same quality of healthcare and medications. Inevitably, much of the increase in healthcare costs will also be passed on panel companies who will then be paying two professionals for the healthcare of their employees.
In this season of spiraling inflation, this proposal by the Ministry of Health is ill-time and poorly conceived.
Unequal Distribution of Medical and Pharmacy Services
As it already is, private general practice clinics are mushrooming at an uncontrolled rate. A block of shoplots in Kuala Lumpur may house up to five clinics. Does Malaysia have a corresponding number of pharmacists to match the proliferating medical clinics? If and when clinics are disallowed to dispense medications, the market scenario will become one that heavily favors pharmacists. The struggling family physician suddenly loses a significant portion of his revenue while the pharmacist receives a durian runtuh overnight.
The situation is worst in the less affluent areas and rural districts where the humble family physician may be the solitary doctor within a 50km radius and no pharmacy outlets at all. For example, there are no pharmacies in Kota Marudu, Sabah and only one in the town of Kudat. Patients seeking treatment in these places will get a consultation but have no avenue to collect their prescription if doctors lose their dispensing privileges.
The absence and dearth of 24-hour pharmacies is also a pertinent issue. At present, many clinics operate around the clock to provide immediate treatment for patients with minor systemic upset. These clinics play an important role in reducing the crowd size and the long waiting hours at the emergency departments of general hospitals.
Without a corresponding number of 24-hour pharmacies to dispense urgent medications, the role of 24-hour clinics will be obtunded. The MOH’s plans of implementing its doctors-prescribe-pharmacists-dispense policy will merely backfire and result in the denial of services to patients.
A Bigger Problem Is The System Itself
The increasing number of medical centers around the country is not necessarily in the patients’ best interests or an indicator of improved healthcare provision. Most clinics and medical centers serve an overlapping population of patients. A person may be under a few different clinics simultaneously for his chronic multiple medical problems, resulting in a scattered, interrupted medical record. One doctor may not be informed of the interventions and medications undertaken by the patient at another practice. The concept of continuous care and a long term doctor-patient relationship is practically improbable.
This is unlike the system in the United Kingdom where each family physician is allotted a certain cohort of patients for long term care. The doctor remains in full knowledge over his patients’ progress, making general practice one that is rewarding and meaningful.
The trouble-ridden Malaysian healthcare system prevents optimal clinical practice especially for doctors in the private sector.
Until the Ministry of Heath puts in place a more systematic and organized approach to healthcare, patients will still be denied optimal medical services despite a clear division between the roles of doctors and pharmacists. The process of prescribing and dispensing is but one step in the cascade of events that may result in harm being done to the patient. Role separation between the doctor and the pharmacist will not eliminate drug-related malpractice and negligence, as I have illustrated in the real clinical scenario above.
Loss of Clinical Autonomy
Private practitioners in Malaysia are at present enjoying a reasonable sense of autonomy over the health of their patients. In many ways, the freedom of clinicians to make decisions with adequate knowledge of the patient’s needs and circumstances is a plus point in clinical practice.
Involving the pharmacists in the daily management of every patient removes a great part of the doctor’s control over the clinical circumstances of the patient. He may prescribe one drug only to be overruled by the dispensing pharmacist later. The clinician has privy to much information about the patient’s circumstances that are available only in the patient’s medical records. It is based on this information that a clinician makes decisions on the final choices of medications for the patient.
A dispensing pharmacist does not have access to such priceless clinical history and may very well make ill-informed decisions in the patient’s medications. Once again, my introductory scenario demonstrates how pharmacists can help perpetuate a patient’s mismanagement.
Selective Implementation of Rules
Rules in any game should be fair and just and implemented on both parties. If doctors are to be prohibited from dispensing, shouldn’t pharmacists too be forbidden from diagnosing, examining, investigating and prescribing?
Yet this is exactly what takes place everyday in a typical pharmacy.
I have seen with my own eyes (not that I can see with someone else’s eyes anyway) pharmacists giving a medical consultation, performing a physical examination and thereafter recommending medications to walk-in customers. It is also not uncommon to find pharmacies collaborating with biochemical laboratories to conduct blood tests especially those in the form of seemingly value-for money ‘packages’. These would usually include a barrage of unnecessary tests comprising tumor markers, rheumatoid factor and thyroid function tests for an otherwise well and asymptomatic patient.
Pharmacists intrude into the physicians’ territory when they begin to do all this and more.
Doctors may occasionally make mistakes due to their supposedly inferior knowledge of drugs despite the fact that they are trained in clinical pharmacology.
In the same vein, pharmacists may have studied the basic features of disease entities and clinical biochemistry but they are nonetheless not of sufficient competency to diagnose, examine, investigate and treat patients. Pharmacists are not adequately trained to take a complete and thorough medical history or to recognize the subtle clinical signs so imperative in the art of differential diagnosis.
In more ways than one and increasingly so, pharmacists are overtaking the role of a clinical doctor. Patients have reported buying antibiotics and prescription drugs over the pharmacy counter without prior consultation with a physician.
If the MOH is sincere to reduce adverse pharmacological reactions due to supposedly inept medical doctors, then it should also clamp down on pharmacists playing doctor everyday in their pharmaceutical premises. Patients will receive better healthcare services only when each team member abides by and operate within their jurisdiction.
The move to restrict doctors to prescribing only while conveniently ignoring the shortcomings and excesses among the pharmacy profession is biased and favors the pharmacists’ interests.
The Root Problem is Quality
A significant issue in Malaysian healthcare is that of the quality of our medical personnel. This includes doctors, dentists, nurses and pharmacists, therapists, amongst others. A substantial number of our doctors are locally trained and educated. If current trends are extrapolated to the future, the number of local medical graduates is bound to rise exponentially alongside the unrestrained establishment of new medical schools.
The quality and competency of current and future medical graduates produced locally is an imperative point to consider. Competent doctors with a sound knowledge of pharmacology will go a long way in improving patient care and minimizing incidence of adverse drug reactions. The very fact that the MOH resorts to the drastic step in prohibiting doctors from dispensing medications indicates that it must be aware of the high prevalence of drug-related clinical errors.
Much of patient safety revolves around the competency of Malaysian doctors in making the right diagnosis and prescribing the right medications. Retracting dispensing rights from clinicians therefore, will not solve the underlying problem. Our doctors might still be issuing the right medications but for the wrong diagnosis. In the end, a dispensing pharmacists will still end up supplying the patient with a medication of the right dosage, right frequency but for the wrong indication.
Patient safety therefore begins with the production of competent medical graduates. The problem lies in the fact the same universities producing medical doctors are usually the same institutions producing pharmacists. It is really not surprising, since the basic sciences of both disciplines are quite similar. Therefore, if the doctors produced by our local institutions are apparently not up to par, can we expect the pharmacy graduates who learnt under the same teachers to be much better in their own right?
Among other remedial measures, my personal opinion is that the medical syllabus of our local universities is in desperate need for a radical review. There is a pressing need for a greater emphasis on basic and clinical pharmacology. At the same time, the excessive weightage accorded to paraclinical subjects like public health and behavioral medicine need to be trimmed down to its rightful size. Lastly, genuine meritocracy in terms of student intake, as opposed to ‘meritocracy in the Malaysian mould’, will drastically improve the final products of our local institutions.
The MOH’s Own Backyard Needs Cleaning
Healthcare provision in Malaysia has undergone radical waves of change during the Chua Soi Lek era. The most sweeping changes seem to affect the private sector much more than anything else. The Private Healthcare Facilities and Services Act typifies MOH’s obsession with regulating private medical practice as though all doctors are under MOH’s ownership and leash.
An analyst new to Malaysian healthcare might be forgiven for having the impression that the Malaysian Ministry of Health is currently on a witch hunt in order to make private practice unappealing and unfeasible in order to reduce the number of government doctors resigning from the civil service.
Regardless of MOH’s genuine motives, it must be borne in mind that private healthcare facilities only serve an estimated twenty percent of the total patient load in the whole country. The major provider of affordable healthcare is still the Ministry of Health and probably always will be. Targeting private healthcare providers therefore, will only create changes to a small portion of the population. Overhauling the public healthcare services conversely, will improve the lot of the remaining eighty percent of the population.
At present, the healthcare services provided by the Malaysian Ministry of Health is admittedly among the most accessible in the world. The quality of MOH’s services however, leaves much to be desired. Instead of conceiving ways and means to make the private sector increasingly unappealing to the frustrated government doctor, the MOH needs to plug the brain drain by making the ministry a more rewarding organization to work in.
The MOH needs to clean up its own messy backyard before encroaching into the private practitioners’.
An indepth analysis of MOH’s deficiencies I’m afraid, is not possible in this article.
MOH’s “To Do List”
The prescribing-dispensing issue should hardly be MOH’s priorities at the moment.
I can effortlessly think of a list of issues for the MOH to tackle apart from retracting the right of clinicians to dispense drugs.
Private laboratories are conducting endless unnecessary tests upon patients and usually at high financial cost despite their so-called attractive packages. In the process, patients are parting with their hard-earned money for investigations that bring little benefit to their overall well being. Mildly ‘abnormal’ results with little clinical significance result in undue anxiety to patients. More often than not, such tests will result in further unnecessary investigations. The MOH needs to regulate the activities of these increasingly brazen and devious laboratories.
Medical assistants trained and produced by the MOH’s own grounds are running loose and roaming into territories that are far beyond their expertise. It is not uncommon to find patients who were on long term follow up under a medical assistant for supposedly minor ailments like refractory gastritis and chronic sorethroat. A few patients with such symptoms turned up having advanced cancer of the stomach and esophagus instead. The medical assistants who for years were treating them with antacids and multiple courses of antibiotics failed to notice the warning signs and red flags of an occult malignancy. They were not trained in the art of diagnosis and clinical examination but were performing the tasks and duties of a doctor. There is no doubt that the role of the medical assistant is indispensable in the MOH. Just as a surgeon would not interfere with the role of an oncologist, medical assistants too must be aware of the limits of their expertise. MOH will do well to remember the case of the medical assistant caught running a full-fledge surgical clinic in Shah Alam in late 2006.
Adulterated drugs with genuine risks of lethal effects are paddled openly in road side stalls and night markets. They are extremely popular among folks from all strata of society who rarely admit to the use of such toxins to their physicians. It is possible and highly probable that many unexplained deaths taking place each day are in some way related to the rampant use of such preparations.
Non-medical personnel are performing risky and potentially lethal procedures daily without the fear of being nabbed by the authorities. These are mostly aesthetic procedures. Mole removals, botulinum toxin injections and even blepharoplasty are carried out brazenly by unskilled personnel and usually in the least sterile conditions. It makes a mockery of the plastic surgeon’s years of training but above all, proves that the MOH is indeed barking up the wrong tree in its obsession to retract the dispensing privileges of medical practitioners.
Closing Points
In summary, a patient’s health is affected by many factors – a doctor’s aptitude is merely one step in a torrent of events. The health seeking behaviors of patients play an imperative role in the final outcome of one’s own health. Most harm to patients can only occur as a result of unidentified minor errors in the management flowchart of a patient. If allowed to accumulate, such errors converge as a snowball that threatens the long term outcome of an ill person.
There are a multitude of other clinical errors apart from prescribing and dispensing, some of which are not at all committed by trained medical staff. The MOH must get its priorities right by first overhauling an increasingly overloaded public healthcare service.
Lastly, the difference between a drug and a poison is the dose. A toxin used in the right amount for the right condition is an elixir. A medication used in the wrong dosage and for the wrong indication is lethal poison.

#1 by undergrad2 on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 8:54 am
Jeffrey QC,
You are asking me to write a book! I’d rather write a book on the issue of narcisssitic personality and its connection to ‘happy’ drugs like Prosac, Zoloft etc.
#2 by lakilompat on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 8:58 am
All the rich M’sian don’t seek treatment in Malaysia. They either go Singapore Elizabeth Specialist or UK, US.
The late Naza boss also seek treatment overseas. PL late wife.
Well, now they wanted to slaughter & exploit the mid & lower income group.
To all the BN napoleans enjoy the cooking.
#3 by corporate.scandals on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 9:02 am
Dear Medical Professionals , Please remember your Hippocrates’s Oath and do the right thing!
You have most likely found this website because you are suffering from an adverse drug reaction (“ADR”) to a fluoroquinolone (“FQ”) antibiotic. The fluoroquinolones include the brand names, Cipro, Levaquin, Tequin, Maxaquin, Avelox, Factive, Floxin, Noroxin, Penetrex, Zagam, as well as any other antibiotic that contains the words “flox” or “ox” in the generic name, such as ciprofloxacin, levafloxacin and gatifloxacin.
Some ophthalmic and otic (ear) drops solutions contain FQ’s such as: Chibroxin(norfloxacin), Ocuflox(ofloxacin), Quixin(levofloxacin), Zymar(gatifloxacin), Ciloxan(ciprofloxacin), Floxin Otic (ofloxacin), Cipro Otic (ciprofloxacin), Vigamox(moxifloxacin), CiproHC.
IF YOU ARE CURRENTLY TAKING A FLUOROQUINOLONE ANTIBIOTIC AND ARE SUFFERING FROM ONE OR MORE OF THE ADR’S LISTED BELOW, PLEASE STOP TAKING IT IMMEDIATELY, REPORT YOUR ADR’S TO YOUR DOCTOR AND DEMAND THAT HE/SHE PRESCRIBE A NON-FLUOROQUINOLONE ALTERNATIVE.
If you have finished your course of FQ’S and you are suffering from one or more of the ADR’s listed below, YOU MUST NEVER TAKE ANOTHER FQ ANTIBIOTIC AGAIN.
* Website – http://www.fqvictims.org
#4 by megaman on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 10:11 am
Like usual the government is building another fragile stack of cards …
The main fundamental point is this:
The idea or concept is good but the necessary prerequisites and fundamentals are not in place yet making this a harmful and bad move.
The same mistake has been over and over again until I lost hope in the current government especially the BN leaders that have been a majority part of the government until now.
Rome is not built in a day !!!!
The achievements and progress made by developed countries are a result of careful planning and meticulous execution over decades or centuries.
There is no shortcuts in life yet our government thinks it can bypass the hard development process and go straight to the final outcome … It just doesn’t work this way …
We started the National Automotive project (EON) when we don’t have a strong engineering background and highly educated workforce.
We build MSC when we don’t even have the necessary IT professionals.
We build Sepang F1 even when our automotive industry is struggling.
We build more universities and invited foreign universities to setup operations here even when our established local universities are struggling with dropping rankings.
Now we are meddling with the health care system ?
Sigh, when will Malaysians open their eyes and truly learn ?
#5 by A Malaysian on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 10:38 am
I think the issue is “which is top priority” in our healthcare system.
Start from the root first.
I guess the standard of doctors is something MOH need to look into first.
1.Criteria for intake?
2.Dubious SLAB scheme where those unqualified guy end up as lecturer in medical school?
etc…
like the author pointed out:
“The MOH needs to clean up its own messy backyard before encroaching into the private practitioners”
I think that is the top priority.
#6 by cheng on soo on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 12:56 pm
Penang KT Koon wife also seek treatment outside Msia, Msia health standard? depend with which countries U wan to compare with?
But dont think it is improving with times!
#7 by Godfather on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 1:37 pm
Yes, we have learnt something new today. We found out that prolonged use of Prozac is the cause of narcissism.
#8 by lakilompat on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 1:43 pm
My parents will normally go Singapore specialist for check up. They don’t really feel safe & confidence on Malaysia specialist, what is the statistic of accidents in Malaysia private hospital, this is not reveal. What abt. those who are poor and average, and those who never knew abt. overseas specialist. These are the group been exploited and slaughtered.
#9 by Godfather on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 1:56 pm
It’s a question of affordability. Specialists in Singapore and Hong Kong charge about 4 times what an equivalent specialist in Bolehland charge. In some cases, it could be up to 10 times. If you feel better at spending that sort of money, then by all means go for it. Accidents happen everywhere – recently there was a case in Hong Kong where a patient undergoing keyhole surgery died when the surgeon accidentally cut a major vein and caused massive internal bleeding. The surgeon was sued for negligence, but the court ruled that it was an accident
#10 by Killer on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 2:39 pm
cheng on soo Says:
You claimed “Penang KT Koon wife also seek treatment outside Msia “.
Bro, care to cite your source ?
#11 by Killer on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 2:51 pm
lakilompat Says:
Today at 13: 43.25 (56 minutes ago)
My parents will normally go Singapore specialist for check up. They don’t really feel safe & confidence on Malaysia specialist, what is the statistic of accidents in Malaysia private hospital, this is not reveal. What abt. those who are poor and average, and those who never knew abt. overseas specialist. These are the group been exploited and slaughtered.
Dear lakilompat, your parents must be really rich to do afford to undergo such routine checkups in Singapore. The cost of private medical care so much more expensive in Singapore than here. Only really rich or really foolish people would do such routine check ups in Singapore.
I am preplexed by your claim that the standard of private medical care is Malaysia to be of low standards. This is not a commonly accepted view of both Malaysians and foreigners (see below). Care to back up you claim ?
KUALA LUMPUR: Malaysia is among the world’s top five medical tourism destinations which presents the most attractive opportunities for medical tourists and foreign investors alike, according to an online source for news related to real estate investment and other investment opportunities.
Nuwire Investor said Malaysia ranked third after Panama and Brazil in first and second, respectively, followed by Costa Rica and India in fourth and fifth respectively. In a statement, it said these markets were selected based on quality and affordability of medical care as well as receptiveness to foreign investment.
Nuwire Investor said Malaysia’s medical tourism industry had seen staggering growth over recent years and the number of foreigners seeking healthcare services in Malaysia had grown from 75,210 patients in 2001 to 296,687 patients in 2006.
It said the large volume of patients in 2006 brought about US$59 million or RM203.66 million in revenue. According to Nuwire Investor, the Association of Private Hospitals Malaysia has projected that the number of foreigners seeking medical treatment in Malaysia will continue to grow at a rate of 30% a year until 2010.
http://www.theedgedaily.com/cms/content.jsp?id=com.tms.cms.article.Article_3c0c2eea-cb73c03a-a010ba00-9354bd98
#12 by limkamput on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 3:02 pm
killer, When you rant about, did others ask you for your source? Yes, i can confirm, KTK’ s wife (and son also) sought treatment abroad some times back. I am not complaining about it, i am just trying to tell you please don’t think others know nothing.
#13 by limkamput on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 3:09 pm
Killer,
If you want to talk about medical tourism, let me tell you this, Bangladesh, India, and may be even Myanmar also can perform medical tourism. Medical tourism is about devoting scarce resources to serve foreigners to earn foreign exchange. It has nothing to do with standard of medical care provided for its own citizens.
#14 by Godfather on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 3:14 pm
Killer:
We are dealing with a Mr Know All here, so whatever he says must be right. He is truly a superior being.
#15 by Killer on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 3:38 pm
lakilompat
Food for thought for you…read the last post too…interesting…
Is Mt Elizabeth hospital’s health services deserve its perceived standard as a private hospital?
My mum was hospitalized recently due to dengue and to our horror, we discover for ourselves the quality of the Mount Elizabeth hospitalization service which would have killed her if we had not been cautious.
http://forum.channelnewsasia.com/viewtopic.php?t=127972
#16 by miketan142 on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 3:56 pm
How often when we see a doctor and was given a sample drug and charge for it ? Samples that are suppose to be free and given by drug companies for testing purposes.
Usually a doctor only prescribe drugs that is available in the clinic ?
Doctors should stick to diagnosing a patient than thinking of the millions earn by dispensing drugs in their clinics.
#17 by Damocles on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 4:02 pm
I think that we should remember the words “chup sang” when we consult healthcare professionals.
In Cantonese, these words means “be aware” or “caveat emptor”.
In fact, everything we do in life is a leap of faith. In health matters, the leap of faith can be frightening!
I’m in my mid sixties and I have seen my fair share of doctors, specialists and what not. And I can tell you that there those who are good, those who are bad and those who are downright ugly!
The same applies when one sends a car, TV or other equipment for servising.
With one very important difference. If your
car or TV is messed up, you can always buy a new one. But if your health is messed up, you can be kaput!
But as patients, we can reduce the chances of such things happening by:
1. letting every doctor/specialist we
consult, know all the medication we
are taking as at that date. This is
important because we may be seeing
two or more types of specialists at
close interval.
2. bringing along someone to act as
our “guide” since a patient can be
influenced by the doctor to accept
his opinion because someone who
is sick my not be in a state of mind
to safeguard his own interests
3. I suggest that in the case where an
operation is necessary, a written
statement, listing both the benefits
as well as the detrimental side effects
must be given, by the doctor, to the
patient, signed by both the doctor and
patient AFTER the contents have been
fully explained to the latter. A copy
must be kept by both.
This is similar to the declaration signed
by the patient prior to an operation
that he accepts the risks involved
before an operation
Severe penalties, including
deregistration and heavy fines must be
imposed if there is any deviation from
this aspect.
Hopefully, the PR will keep on tightening the loose ends, not only in healthcare aspects of our life, but also every other aspects as well as we journey towards a brighter future.
#18 by limkamput on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 4:08 pm
“The balancing point ought to be this, change the government and everything will fall into places.” dawsheng
Inadvertently, this is in fact BN’s mentality – they think there is a simple and quick solution to every complex problem. Pathetic again.
#19 by emily86 on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 4:22 pm
may i just know something… should i just give up going back to Malaysia to practice? I’m a pharmacy student btw..
#20 by syncbasher83 on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 4:51 pm
“Antidepressants like Prosac, Paxil and Zoloft must be taken only when prescribed by a doctor – not even a pharmacologist.”
erk pharmacolgists were actually medical doctors who attained their specialty in pharmacology. u mean pharmacist?
and these pharmacologists got many types…paediatrics pharmacologists, hematology pharmacology etc! if in university hospitals, these hot guys who actually control the pharmacy department not the pharmacists…haiya pharmacist does not necessarily has more knowledge than a doctor on pharmacology
#21 by syncbasher83 on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 4:53 pm
my experience ha
even a phd pharmacist ranked below a specialist pharmacologist (erk only second degree level)
and i mean based upon knowledge gap lah
#22 by seage on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 5:05 pm
The cost of private medical care so much more expensive in Singapore than here. Only really rich or really foolish people would do such routine check ups in Singapore. [Killer]
Killer, if more expensive medical cost = quality, I would opt for it anytime. Its not the matter of whether you are rich or foolish, its about assurance. I have personally experienced the horror of lousy medical care (TWICE!) at Hospital Tengku Ampuan afzan, Kuantan (HTAA). You may want to read my previous posting if you are truly interested. But to cut it short, its a wrong diagnosis on my mother for final stage cancer in 2000(She’s still very much alive and kicking today!) and another wrong diagnosis of 3rd stage cancer in 2006. The doc even arranged her up for chemo theraphy. Imagine what chemo will do to a healthy person.
#23 by xpainxgain on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 5:40 pm
First, we must understand that separation of prescribing and dispensing (SPD)is a good system. Many developing countries have already implemented. No country cancel it after the implementation of the SPD , nor did the people because of the SPD and overthrow its government. This shows that the SPD is definitely a good system, the ultimate beneficiaries wii be the general public.
But why the country’s independence 50 years, still can not implement SPD? A doctor can not accept this? May be yes. Insufficient number of pharmacists? May be yes. Doctors are not prepared about it? May be yes.
Why do these problems arise? This is because our medical system as early as the 1980s is just being like our judicial system,ruined by the BN political game.
Just think, if the BN doctors join the MMA, will they ask to promote separation of prescribing and dispensing ? Dare they offend the MMA? In this regard, you can’t blame that very few pharmacists join in politics,it is because in the 1980s to 1995s, less than 100 pharmacists graduated per year. You can see the number of MMA is far more than the MPS. So,if the BN doctors join the MMA, they will protect the MMA rather than MPS. Hence,they will forget about beneficial of SPD.
So I conclude, if the BN to continue to lead this country, the final result is difficult to implement the separation of prescribing and dispensing
#24 by syncbasher83 on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 5:44 pm
haiya just let the people decide lah, if wanna buy meds from doctor buylah, if want buy from pharmacy just let them be…its their money and its their life…a law forbidding drugs being dispensed by either one is totally unnecessary…
weve got problems in both medical and pharmacy community. diagnoses are made by signs and symptoms supported by certain investigations. however not all disease presented typically, some very unconventional u know, medical doctors are not god. so thats why these misdiagnoses happened lah…
an approach toward a patient is based upon team of professionals and of course the medical docs lead while the other allied health professionals each contributed their part lah…
if one poor guy goto see a pharmacist for fever. i bet he only receive panadol for that and nothing else. reminded there are hundreds causes of fever alone. a medical doctor role is to rule out more serious causes of fever. and this is done through certain questions on certain thing that a doctor should know lah. im sure a pharmacist cannot do this…
#25 by procol on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 6:18 pm
My take is the system is not in place for such change yet. More specifically, u can’t take one part of a system from other country e.g. pharmacist dispense, n implement it here without studying the background of the healthcare system of both countries thoroughly. As pointed out by undergrad2, in UK doctors or rather clinics under NHS doesn’t collect any fees fr patients but they are assigned a certain number of patients and paid based on that. In Msia, no patient equals no income. In UK the doctor is still paid eventhough the patient assigned under him doesn’t make a visit. With the segregation,do u really expect anyone to spend up to 7yrs or more to qualify as a doctor, the so called coveted n nobel practice, only to charge RM30 or whatever the sum is within the permitted range for the rest of his profession as a GP? GPs unlike lawyers, consultation fees doesn’t increase with years of experience. 30 years of experience doesn’t translate to consultation fee of RM300 per person. It may still only be RM30. I don’t know if any other GPs charge according to years in practice but my family sure don’t, I would have a BMW Mseries for my 18th birthday if they did!
#26 by undergrad2 on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 6:40 pm
syncbasher83,
The reference to pharmacologists is not a slip. Getting drugs from a pharmacologist, for example, is now standard practice in the U.S. just like getting therapy from a psychologist or counselor is – services paid for at a lower rate.
#27 by undergrad2 on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 6:46 pm
Lawyers now refer what used to be physicians as pharmacologists.
#28 by syncbasher83 on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 8:06 pm
wah! i really dont want to be in the middle of these lawyers fight…
undergrad,
wah really? if understood by medical profession, thats really wrong knoe…
pharmacists are different from pharmacologists, physicians are very well different from pharmacologists…
pharmacists are those with 1st degree in pharmacy…
the basic root in medical professions are:-
1) physicians who basically are those who specializes in medical treatment…and
2) surgeon…v all knoe well who they are…
pharmacologists are subset of physicians, all pharmacologists are physicians but not all physicians are pharmacologists…
pharmacologists are those who specializes in pharmacology/drugs
not all physicians specializes in pharmacology so not all physicians are pharmacologist…
search in any medical school, medical department which houses physicians are totally separated from pharmacology department…
but erk this is my view as a medical student, but um if lawyers considered all physicians are pharmacologists then the only thing i can say is that, um thats wrong, at least as far as i knoe :-)
#29 by undergrad2 on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 8:26 pm
synbasher,
There is only one lawyer here and limkamput is the one.
#30 by limkamput on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 8:27 pm
You pseudo lawyer! I said I have no opinion over the choice. I did not say I am not aware of the separation in function in certain countries. If I am a fraud, you are hypocrite – a mega hypocrite.
#31 by limkamput on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 8:27 pm
you are busted, pure and simple, hypocrite.
#32 by undergrad2 on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 8:53 pm
That’s right how could anyone lived in the U.S. and not have an opinon on the matter?? If you’re aware then you must have an opinion!
#33 by syncbasher83 on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 8:54 pm
now talking on the case of the kid who lost her arm…the case was like this…
she was suspected to have nosocomial infection such as methicilin resistant staph aureus (MRSA). she was given vancomycin which is a very potent antibiotic against such infection as well as its side effect.
now the fault was, the houseman incharge gave her in bolus (one shot injection) whereas the standard should it be diluted in normal saline or given as slow infusion using infusion pump…
and of course the blame should go to the HO for being unaware…
but the fault should go to the whole team…
1) if the pharmacist incharge is competent enough, they should have reviewd every drugs prescribed and advice on doctors prescribing them especially those with serious side effects…but well pharmacists in MOH hosp prefer to be only in the pharmacy behind the counters rather than being in the ward reviewing the drugs…
2) the staffnurses which most of them are senior enough to aware of the mistake done by the 1 year old of medical life houseman…
3) the MOs should have been more concerned on their juniors, they should have less chitchatting in the coffee shop…
#34 by Damocles on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 8:57 pm
“IF YOU ARE CURRENTLY TAKING A FLUOROQUINOLONE ANTIBIOTIC AND ARE SUFFERING FROM ONE OR MORE OF THE ADR’S LISTED BELOW, PLEASE STOP TAKING IT IMMEDIATELY, REPORT YOUR ADR’S TO YOUR DOCTOR AND DEMAND THAT HE/SHE PRESCRIBE A NON-FLUOROQUINOLONE ALTERNATIVE.” – Corporate.Scandals
Corporate.Scandals, you’re spot on!!
There are many so-called doctors/specialists who do not give a damn that the medicines, especially antibiotics, that they give to their patients are causing them very serious side effects.
What’s worse is that they don’t bother to ask their patients what other medicines that they are taking that may cause serious interactions!
In the same vein, they don’t bother to inform their patients how the antibiotics should be taken!
Some antibiotics should be taken on a really full stomach and the patient should take it with an adequate amount of water. Failure to do so can cause stomach ulcers. It’s a fact the many of our doctors are dispensing antibiotics like candies – even those that cause serious side effects!
I have asked some doctors about why patients are not told of the serious side effects of some antibiotics and the reply was: “There is no law requiring them to do so”. NO LAW, NO TELL!! This shows just how callous our doctors are about something that can cause very serious side effects!
I think that Uncle Lim must take immediate action to remedy the situation before more damage and suffering are done to the patients.
#35 by syncbasher83 on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 9:07 pm
this is another typical case here in malaysia…
one malay girl admitted for epigastric pain diagnosed as having gastritis on Oesophagogastroduodenoscopy. She was discharged well with oral omeprazole…
then she had fever with Upper respiratory tract infection symptoms, she went to a pharmacist and was given aspirin. the fever was not subsided and she continued taking aspirin for months…
that prolonged aspirin caused more irritation to her stomach wall. her stomach wall with prev gastritis had developed malignant changes into stomach cancer which causes the prolong fever….
the URTI symptoms were only superimposed…
well when the condition worsen, she was admitted and of course the blame goes to the doctor for not diagnosing her of having stomach cancer…
problem wise, the prolong aspirin causes the malignant changes, it was just gastritis in the first place…
#36 by undergrad2 on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 9:09 pm
“As pointed out by undergrad2, in UK doctors or rather clinics under NHS doesn’t collect any fees fr patients but they are assigned a certain number of patients and paid based on that.” Procol
Yes, procol. I have mostly fond memories of the years I spent in the U.K. Whenever I visited my doctor, I never had to pay anything. With dentists it was slightly different. I had to pay a small sum. Imagine I paid a mere 10 Br. Pounds for a root canal which gave me no problem for 20 years! In Malaysia the same root canal costs several hundred ringgits. In the U.S. today I would have to pay no less than USDLS3,000 and that comes with insurance. Don’t even begin to think how much it would cost without insurance!
.
You rightly pointed out that if the lucrative part of the business of GPs in Malaysia (primary care physicians or PCPs as they are called here) which includes the dispensing and sale of drugs to their patients, is parceled out to pharmacists, many would not even consider medicine as their profession.
However, I’m sure you’ll agree that as patients our primary concern is getting the right drugs we need and not how doctors would do in their business as GPs if they are precluded from dispensing drugs to their patients.
I dread to think what could happen when a doctor has run out of supply say of Paxil (an antidepressant popular with school kids at least in the U.S. today) and dispensed the more powerful Zoloft to his or her patients! The more controversial use of Zoloft and Prozac as you know has been linked by many to murders and suicides.
It is important that we separate the issues.
#37 by syncbasher83 on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 9:12 pm
a pharmacist’s job is to give meds based on ur symptoms…
but a doc is required to treat the cause…
now lets choose…
#38 by Damocles on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 9:15 pm
I think that certain dangerous antibiotics should be banned if there are more “benign” alternatives.
The earlier this is done the better.
#39 by syncbasher83 on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 9:22 pm
certain dangerous antibiotics should not be banned, it should be prescribed more carefully lah…
if in MRSA, giving another ‘benign’ alternative may cause the bug to be even more resistant adding to its multidrug resistant aledi…
it should be treated aggressively…
when the risk of dying from MRSA outweigh the risk of vancomycin’s side effects, its the doc role to act fast and decisive…that is when these dangerous antibiotics come into view…
#40 by limkamput on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 9:27 pm
syncbasher83 Says:
a pharmacist’s job is to give meds based on ur symptoms…
but a doc is required to treat the cause…
now lets choose…
If you can, please explain to me. If a doctor examines a patient, I suppose the doctor will also know the cause. He then prescribes the medicine. Once the medicine is prescribed, even under separate functions system, can a pharmacist change the prescription? I suppose the pharmacist must dispense the medicine according to the prescription. So where is the advantage of separate function? Please I know nothing much about this, so if you can please explain to me and the rest.
#41 by bukanbumi on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 9:38 pm
In more advance countries, it is always the case of Doctors prescribing the medicines and the patients have to buy the drug from pharmacy, and in some cases the pharmacist also recommend the patients different type of medicines then the prescription, this is because the pharmacists know about drug much better than a Doctor. In order for this model to work in Malaysia, we need to have Pharmacy in every corner of our Towns and is available to the public 24 hours a day, we also need many trained pharmacists, are we ready for that?
#42 by syncbasher83 on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 9:51 pm
well, im trying to be fair here…these pharmacist say that when it comes to separate functions, the pt ought to get more info on the drug they r prescribed…
ie when to take, enough water onot, before meal or after meal…
and oso got certain 1/2hour after meal…
contraindications, side effects etc…
-actually its basically a mini counseling on the drug
But the point is, Y not we give that right to choose to the patients? those who want more info can buy the drug from pharmacy and those who comfortable to getting it from GPs, so let them alone…
This question arise…these pharmacist wana their ricepot become bigger izit? jealousy?
now this is typical malaysian patient…
70 year old chinese man, very poor living only on selling pau. Hes diabetic for the past 20 years, very easy to forget things…
hes living with his wife, so when his wife is out to sell pau, he usually forget to take his pills…
so we came up with the idea of this antidiabetic drug well packaged into a very well arranged instructions and tablets according to daily doses…so we just asked his wife to put that meds together with his meals so that he wont forget…
luckily they can cope with that routine and he become much better now but of course it was not taken half an hour later after meal like our pharmacists guys told so…
hecks most diabetics in malaysia r in this age range…its good enough they can their doses accordingly, want them to take half an hour later somemore? common man be realistic…would they even remember to even think of their meds half an hour after meal? i bet most of them sleep aledilah man…
#43 by undergrad2 on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 10:41 pm
“! suppose the pharmacist must dispense the medicine according to the prescription.” Limkamput
You suppose??
Pharmacist are required by law to dispense drugs only as prescribed by physicians – no more and no less. The pharmacist does not and cannot overrule the physician and recommend the use of alternative drugs! The reason is simple. They are not doctors!
The pharmacist is under duty though to inform you if generics are available. Originals are still patented and are expensive. There is no generic for Benicar, for example, since it is new in the market. Vytorin, on the other hand, has a generic – simvastatin which is a lot cheaper. Doctors do the diagnoses and prescribe the medications for his or her patients’ need from the medical point of view. They do not look into the affordability of the drugs they prescribe. That need would be better dealt with by pharmacists since they have a duty to inform patients whenever generics are available.
#44 by Godfather on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 11:00 pm
What he meant to say was “I KNOW the pharmacist must dispense….” or “Nobody KNOWs better than me that the pharmacist must dispense….”. It was just a small lapse of judgement from Mr Know All.
#45 by syncbasher83 on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 11:05 pm
hm GPs are trained to prescribed drugs based on their efficacy compatible to the severity of the disease…most GPs chose patented drugs due to its proven efficacy…
of course generic drugs r alot cheaper but alot of clinical trials done proved that these drugs has poor efficacy compared to their patented sibs….
if one patient got shooting BP like firecracker, prescribing generic antihypertensive has been proven to cause poor BP control…u knoe BP going up and down like hell, its messy and ended up haywired….
well then we can guesslah…hemorrhagic stroke then 8 feet under earth lah…
Anyone going to any GP being given this Uphamol 350? None rite?
this Uphamol 350 only can see in 7 eleven n pharmacy of course…im sad to see our pharmacy nowadays 7 eleven standard!
Haha got one story, last time i got fever so sajelah pegi pharmacy asking for panadol, u knoe the old white one, the one being used by all GPs…then this pharmacy asked me to buy this Uphamol 350, its more expensive, he said can cure better ma…then i refused, know Y?
this uphamol 350 has only 350mg of paracetamol or acetaminophen as compared to 500mg old panadol…more expensive for lower dose? standard dose is 500mg lah dats y u never see this uphamol 350 in GP clinics! except uguys can get those from pharmacylah, lagipun kan they all very well educated on drugs…
im seeing that pharmacist as the same as the 7 eleven casher trying to sell me those uphamol 350…and they wanted all to buy drugs from them only…what a heck!
#46 by limkamput on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 11:22 pm
Ok, I capitulate. You are the best. You know everything – law, philosophy, politics, sociology, economics, government, USA and now medicine, especially antidepressants, and henhouse. You are the Renaissance man (from now on this will be your new title). The other one of course will remain as your sidekick.
#47 by syncbasher83 on Monday, 5 May 2008 - 11:36 pm
“They do not look into the affordability of the drugs they prescribe. That need would be better dealt with by pharmacists since they have a duty to inform patients whenever generics are available.”-undergrad
hmm, in any patient, he/she is being managed by any GP through 3 important steps- history, physical examinations and necessary investigations- all being well documented into one folder, or ticket we called it…
now this folder include one part in the history we called social history- standard info of the patient is required that r–>
1) their occupation
2) their monthly income
so i would like to clarify here lah, most docs will lookup on this when prescribing drugs comes especially when long term medication is needed…
the Q is–do pharmacist has the same system?
#48 by procol on Tuesday, 6 May 2008 - 1:03 am
syncbasher83,
Doctors don’t mind not dispensing generic meds so long as the patients cld afford it n r willing to pay. The situation is not that ideal in reality. Doctors r sometimes forced to use generic drugs simply because “patented drugs” r too costly for patients. Lower income group will find it hard to cope if they didn’t use generic drugs, for eg hypertension is common even in lower income group. Imagine the strain on them if they hv to fork out over 100 per month just on meds.
#49 by undergrad2 on Tuesday, 6 May 2008 - 3:09 am
“now this folder include one part in the history we called social history- standard info of the patient is required that r–>
1) their occupation
2) their monthly income
so i would like to clarify here lah, most docs will lookup on this when prescribing drugs comes especially when long term medication is needed…
the Q is–do pharmacist has the same system?” syncbasher83
LOL. I think if there is any specific data kept on patients regarding how much they earn, it is merely to help the physician decide how much to charge them!
Am I not right that the primary concern of physicians is with the health of his patient and not the size of his wallet? So when prescribing medication he is motivated by what drugs best meet the patient’s needs based on his diagnosis?
The pharmacist on the other hand dispenses medication as prescribed by the physician. The pharmacist deviates from the physician’s instruction only at his own peril! Here in the U.S. both physicians and pharmacists practice defensive medicine. They work hard to avoid getting sued by their patients especially those with deep pockets who could afford the best attorneys in town. Despite that medical malpractice suits are on the increase. Medical negligence is hard to prove, is a specialized field for attorneys but a very lucrative one. In many cases it involves judgment calls rather than negligence.
When I find the drug prescribed by my physician too expensive or is not covered by my health insurance or is covered inadequately, I’d tell him so on my next visit. He would then prescribe a cheaper drug or he would look to see if there is a generic available. Sometimes the physician does not know if there are generics available but the pharmacist would. If the pharmacist does not know nobody knows!
There is this fallacy about ‘original’ and ‘generic’ drugs. There is no real difference between the two. Original drugs are under patents for twenty years from the time it first came into the market. Generics will make their way into the market once the patent expires. The chemical composition is the same.
#50 by thephunkypharmacist on Tuesday, 6 May 2008 - 5:02 am
Haha got one story, last time i got fever so sajelah pegi pharmacy asking for panadol, u knoe the old white one, the one being used by all GPs…then this pharmacy asked me to buy this Uphamol 350, its more expensive, he said can cure better ma…then i refused, know Y?
this uphamol 350 has only 350mg of paracetamol or acetaminophen as compared to 500mg old panadol…more expensive for lower dose? standard dose is 500mg lah dats y u never see this uphamol 350 in GP clinics! except uguys can get those from pharmacylah, lagipun kan they all very well educated on drugs…
–> Perhaps you should listen to what the pharmacist has to say? A headache requires not more than 350 mg per dose if I’m not mistaken. Of course, chain pharmacies are also trying to make a sale so no rebut there! Are you living in a well-to-do community?
.
hecks most diabetics in malaysia r in this age range…its good enough they can their doses accordingly, want them to take half an hour later somemore? common man be realistic…would they even remember to even think of their meds half an hour after meal? i bet most of them sleep aledilah man…
–> I’m sure pharmacists won’t be the only one who would advise them on this. Some drugs are not effective, or ‘under-effective’ when you take it DIRECTLY after a meal. Some drugs need to be staggered between meals to ensure that it meets its efficacy. No doubt, the pharmacist is at fault here also for not coming up with a medication plan that will ensure complete compliance. However, this should go both ways – if they think they won’t be able to comply, they SHOULD talk to their healthcare providers about it.
im seeing that pharmacist as the same as the 7 eleven casher trying to sell me those uphamol 350…and they wanted all to buy drugs from them only…what a heck!
This question arise…these pharmacist wana their ricepot become bigger izit? jealousy?
–> No we’re not jealous. This is a profession, our profession defines us as a drug dispenser, patient counselor, drug management etc. This IS our primary role to society.
so i would like to clarify here lah, most docs will lookup on this when prescribing drugs comes especially when long term medication is needed…
the Q is–do pharmacist has the same system?
–> Pharmacist DO NOT dispense long term medication without a prescription. What they do is help keep track of their progress and if possible keep the prescriber up to date e.g. whether the patient has been complying, dosage reduction due to side effects etc.
I think what the Ministry should do, if they really want to implement such a system, is to EDUCATE the public on WHAT a PHARMACIST really DOES. So far all the comments here seem to suggest that only those living overseas know EXACTLY what it truly means when it comes to ‘separation of roles’