Islamic state - MCA/Gerakan should stop hypocrisy and double standards
(Speech 2 at the first Public Ceramah/Consultation with DAP MPs, Excos, State Assemblymen at Chin Woo Hall, Ipoh on Saturday, 12th April 2008)
In the past few days, MCA and Gerakan leaders have suddenly found their voice and become quite articulate, as if to prove to Malaysians that after the March 8 “political tsunamii” they have learnt their lesson and are breaking away from their past culture of silence and subservience in the Barisan Nasional.
But this is not really the case, as they continue as captive as before March 8 to Umno political hegemony.
MCA and Gerakan leaders, including the MCA President, Datuk Ong Ka Ting, seems to be competing among themselves to lash out at the DAP for misleading the Chinese in Malaysia in the last general election over PAS’ Islamic state agenda.
MCA and Gerakan leaders should stop applying double standards on the Islamic State issue. When on Sept. 29, 2001, the then Prime Minister, Datuk Seri Dr. Mahathir Mohamad declared that Malaysia was an Islamic state, unilaterally, arbitrarily and unconstitutionally abrogating the cardinal nation-building principle in the Constitution and Merdeka “social contract” that Malaysia is a multi-religious and secular state with Islam as the official religion but not an Islamic State, there was not only no objection from MCA and Gerakan leaders – they gave immediate public support.
Similarly last year, when the Prime Minister, Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi and Deputy Prime Minister, Datuk Seri Najib Razak trampled on the Malaysian Constitution and the 1957 “social contract” and declared Malaysia as an Islamic state, there was not a whimper of opposition or protest from Ong Ka Ting and the other MCA, Gerakan and Barisan Nasional Cabinet Ministers and leaders.
It is the height of irresponsibility and hypocrisy for MCA and Gerakan leaders to demand that the DAP must come out openly about our stand on Malaysia as an Islamic state, when it is the MCA and Gerakan which should stop its hypocritical, opportunistic and unprincipled stand on the Islamic state.
DAP’s stand of Malaysia as a secular state and opposition to Malaysia becoming an Islamic state, violating the secular basis and commitment of the 1957 Merdeka Constitution and “social contract”, is so crystal clear and unmistakable that only the most ignorant or unprincipled can question it.
It is not the DAP which must come out clearly on its stand on Malaysia as an Islamic state – as it is the MCA and Gerakan which had betrayed their party founding principles on Malaysia as a secular state and not an Islamic state.
For a start, MCA and Gerakan leaders should stop applying double standards on the Islamic State issue and they should ask Abdullah and Najib to withdraw their declaration that Malaysia is an Islamic state and return to the founding principles of the 1957 Merdeka Constitution and “social contract” on the secular basis and character of Malaysia, which was not questioned even by Barisan Nasional leaders until Mahathir’s “929 Declaration” on Sept. 29, 2001.
Recently, the statement by some PAS leaders on Islamic state have created “waves” in the country as well as among the three political parties, DAP, PAS and PKR.
DAP leaders had said throughout the recent general election campaign that DAP and PAS had no links or relationship as the DAP had always remain steadfast in our commitment to preserve the secular basis of Malaysia as agreed by the forefathers of the major communities on the attainment of independence and nationhood half a century ago and our rejection of Malaysia as an Islamic state.
The results of the March 8, 2008 general election, which which came like a political tsunami, ending the Barisan Nasional’s unbroken two-thirds parliamentary majority and brought down the Barisan Nasional in five states, sent out a clear verdict – that the majority of Malaysians want far-reaching changes in the country and the people want DAP, PAS and PKR to co-operate to effect these changes.
This message is most clear in Perak and Selangor where without the co-operation of the three parties to form a coalition government, power would have to be returned to the Barisan Nasional.
This message has been vindicated just now when I asked the thousand people gathered at this DAP Public Ceramah/Consultation here tonight whether they support the formation of a DAP-PKR-PAS coalition government in Perak to effect the changes Malaysians of all races and religions desire, and there was an unanimous show of hands in support.
There was another massive show of hands of support to demonstrate that the changes that voters want in the March 8 political tsunami is for accountability, integrity, justice, democracy and good governance and not for Islamic state or hudud laws – as the majority not only of non-Malays but also of Malays are clearly not in support of Malaysia becoming an Islamic state.
The co-operation of DAP, PAS and PKR in the proposed Pakatan Rakyat is clear and specific on the common goals of accountability, integrity, justice, democracy and good governance and not for an Islamic state or hudud laws.
There is a great difference between the DAP’s relationship with PAS and PKR on the one hand and the MCA and Gerakan with UMNO in Barisan Nasional on the other.
DAP’s relationship with PAS and PKR is one of equals while MCA and Gerakan’s role in BN is a subservient one totally subject to Umno’s political hegemony.
In Pakatan Rakyat, DAP makes it clear that our stand on Malaysia as a secular state and our objection to turn Malaysia into an Islamic state is a fundamental principle which is not open to compromise – while MCA and Gerakan had compromised away this principle in the Barisan Nasional by accepting the public declarations of Mahathir, Abdullah and Najib of Malaysia as an Islamic state.
DAP, PKR and PAS are working on a common statement of principles as the basis for co-operation of the three political parties in Pakatan Rakyat at state and national levels so that there could be no mistake or misunderstanding on the basis of co-operation of the three political parties – and that such a co-operation has nothing thing to do with the issue of Islamic state or hudud laws.
In 2001, an earlier attempt to create an opposition front comprising four political parties, DAP, PKR, PAS and Parti Rakyat in the form of an Alternative Front failed because of the breach of the common programme “Towards A Just Malaysia” when PAS unilaterally went ahead to push its programme of an Islamic state.
If the proposed Pakatan Rakyat is to survive and succeed in fulfilling the trust and hopes of the people as expressed in the March 8 “political tsunami”, then it must not repeat the mistakes of the Alternative Front, and must fully commit the constituent parties to the principles of justice, freedom, democracy and good governance, and not allow it to be used as an excuse to pursue separate agendas such as an Islamic state or hudud laws.
April 13th, 2008 at 14: 03.04
Hi Uncle Kit,
I agree with ur point of view…however, to strengthen DAP, u must not compromise on the issue of islamic state….also, I would strongly advise you to stick with “Msian First” concept-JUSTICE, FREEDOM,INTEGRITY & EQUALITY,
HArdcore DAP supporter,
April 13th, 2008 at 14: 05.02
The raykat had keep their end of the bargain in the Merderka Constitution to sustain the Monarchy system (with entitlements to Sultans, entourage, princes and princesses), I am at a loss as to why the government is not keeping thier end of the bargin to upheld the rest of the constitution - that every raykat are treated equally and just.
April 13th, 2008 at 14: 16.46
Totally agree with Kit. Action speaks louder than words. MCA and Gerakan will be judged by their past actions, or inactions, here and in the case of Kerismuddin.
April 13th, 2008 at 14: 27.29
BN knows the weaknesses of DAP, and all they need to stir up any frictions between DAP and PAS, and ultimately, the PR, is to instigate any PAS idiots on the Islamic state issue. That has become the “bogeyman” of DAP especially Karpal. The rakyat would prefer DAP to stay calm and ignore BN’s instigation, cos there is no way PAS can amend the constitution without a 2/3 majority. Even if PKR were to join force with PAS, they still can’t get their 2/3. The real danger lies in Sabah, and PR must ensure a victory to take over the Fed Govt in order to “sanitise” the citizenship issue that have plagued the state with foreign “citizens”.
April 13th, 2008 at 14: 27.33
I am hopping that PAS will be different. PAS has the potential to become the most democratic and fair Islamic political party in the world. So far PAS has demonstrated this status and will set the example for the rest of Islamic world.
April 13th, 2008 at 14: 28.40
What is LKS definition of secular?
From my undertanding, secular is seperating religion from everything.
but, There is “Agama Rasmi” in our constitution.
In Germany, there are Christian Democrat Party, That’s mean there are not secular.
Being democratic doesnt mean we have to be secular.
April 13th, 2008 at 14: 37.39
MCA and Gerakan are not relevant any more.
April 13th, 2008 at 14: 55.01
sebol said
“Being democratic doesnt mean we have to be secular.”
Unfortunately, a theocracy can’t be democratic or espousing the principles of equality for all. Justice will be religious justice. Integrity means following whatever the religion says is the right thing to do and freedom means … it is to be within the space the theocracy determines and the goalposts may shift anytime.
April 13th, 2008 at 15: 00.28
In 2001 Mahathir declared M’sia an islamic state but MCA and Gerakan had no [deleted] to object. In 2007 Bodowi and Nutjib declared M’sia an islamic state. At that time MCA and Gerakan wanted to object but it was already too late because Krismuddin’s swift action managed to [deleted]before they could utter a word.
April 13th, 2008 at 15: 15.15
YB LKS,
Seharusnya isu Negara Islam ini tidak lagi diperbincangkan. MCA/GERAKAN/DAP termakan dengan dakyah jahat UMNO terhadap konsep negara islam. Jika orang Cina sensitif dengan isu dengan negara Islam. Orang Melayu Islam pun sensitif dengan konsep Malaysian Malaysia yang dicanang DAP dan hak samarata dalam hal agama. Itu tak termasuk isu BABI di Selangor yang tercetus gara-gara tindakan terdesak YB Teresa untuk memancing sokongan orang cina. Tetapi kenapa YB LKS tidak melihat betapa universalnya YB PAS di Selangor dalam menyokong projek ini. Sehinggakan kalau dilihat hampir majoriti laman Blog Penyokong PAS menyokong projek ini. Adakah YB LKS tidak dapat membandingkan kebaikan islam yang ditonjolkan oleh Parti PAS atau masih ditutup dengan kelemahan Islam Hadhari ciptaan UMNO. YB kena ingat kalau PAS gagal menangani isu ini dikalangan orang Melayu dan Islam. Tidak mustahil pilihanraya akan datang Selangor dan Perak akan jatuh ketangan BN kembali. Jesteru itu janganlah terlampau lantang dengan memainkan isu negara islam hingga melukakan perasaan rakan sendiri. Saya sendiri pun tak akan undi DAP sekiranya tanpa sokongan dan keyakinan yang diberikan PAS terhadap DAP. Saya juga percaya pengundi Melayu islam lain turut mempunyai pendapat yang sama dengan saya. Dalam Pilihanraya lepas Pemimpin Pas telah menyarankan kami agar undi DAP untuk melawan kezaliman BN. Harap YB faham permintaan kami janganlah disensasikan lagi perkara ini.
April 13th, 2008 at 15: 20.16
Aiyah…forget this M-Chicken-A/Gerakan Belakang. Now they become opposition..ha ha ha ha….. . Im blessed to live till today to see them barking underneath Krismudin’s sarong. Man..they are desperate sitting among the sinking UMNO.And that K-urang a-J-ar must go also. Yeah….they are sinking.
April 13th, 2008 at 15: 34.11
“DAP’s stand of Malaysia as a secular state and opposition to Malaysia becoming an Islamic state, violating the secular basis and commitment of the 1957 Merdeka Constitution and “social contract”, is so crystal clear and unmistakable that only the most ignorant or unprincipled can question it.”
Uncle Kit, this statement of yours is a double-edged sword. Just how crystal clear and unmistakable DAP’s stand on the Islamic State issues when for weeks some had demanded for clarification but to no avail? I will appreciates it if you can be specific and direct in your reference of the most ignorant and unprincipled who has questioned DAP’s position with regards to the Islamic State issues.
April 13th, 2008 at 15: 36.18
Lim,
Clearly, Gerakan had lost the support of the chinese community total since they secured 0 seat in Penang. MCA also lost their support from chinise community, so we do not need to quarrel with them regarding Islamic State or Secular states. The people has punished them 0n 8 March Election. MCA and Gerakan need to be sincere when they raise any issues in future, they could not simply talk nonsence anymore with the information technology and knowledgeble Rakyay
April 13th, 2008 at 15: 38.57
MCA and Gerakan are crying over split milk.I bet they are the servant of UMNO and now trying to create havoc to DAP and associates over the Islamic issue.
They must mirror themselves first as they supported Mahathir initially when he declared Malaysia as an Islamic state.They were dead silence over the issue, and infact DAP were the ones championing the issue without fear or favour.Why double-standards now? I hope they, the eunuches of UMNO would wake up from their senses and do something concrete for the Chinese or else it would be history for them in the next GE.
April 13th, 2008 at 15: 46.24
MCA and Gerakan are really thick-skinned!
Thank you MCA and Gerakan, please mind your own business, we don’t need you both to represent the Chinese in this country.
By the 13th GE, both of you will become opposition parties!
April 13th, 2008 at 15: 46.33
After 50 years and still cannot understand the Merdeka constitution. That’s why Malaysia is still very…. very ….still far away from our neighbour in many terms (name what you like). We are still fighting over petty issues (Islamic, ketuanan melayu lah, NEP etc) within Malaysian. Hello brother (UMNO and BN) how to compete with others? Our enemies are outsidelah….still cannot see…..then continue sleeping. Lets the PR take over.
April 13th, 2008 at 16: 17.54
Secularism is not our enemy: A Muslim’s open letter
Visit http://www.wagthedog-malaysia.blogspot.com for details.
April 13th, 2008 at 16: 49.17
wag the dog is a spammer,…..
spamining it’s empty blog to attract advert from filthy adult sites….
dont go,…..dont click !
lease u contribute to adult.click !
April 13th, 2008 at 16: 51.18
Trashed:
Who told you PAS Islamic State is “theocracy”?
UMNO?
April 13th, 2008 at 17: 05.59
Got this from Malaysian Insider.
Muslim conversions: No need to inform family, says Nik Aziz
KOTA BARU, April 13 — Kelantan Menteri Besar Datuk Nik Abdul Aziz Nik Mat yesterday said it was not necessary for non-Muslims to inform their family of their wish to embrace Islam.
He was reacting to the proposal by Prime Minister Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi to make it compulsory for non-Muslims to inform their family before converting to Islam to avoid problems in future, like tussles over the remains of a deceased convert for burial.
Nik Aziz said the requirement for would-be Muslims to do so could hinder them from converting to Islam.”
Could Uncle Kit enlighten us on this? What is DAP/Pakatan’s stand on this issue? Why is Pakatan not issuing any statement on this issue?
Thanks Uncle
April 13th, 2008 at 17: 25.58
YB,
I remember the Gerakan Convention well when Dr M announced nonchalantly that Malaysia is an Islamic.
As a journalist and apolitical science graduate, I understand the significance of the declaration immediately. So did Lim Keng Yaik and Koh Tsu Koon (who were sitting next to Dr M).
After Dr M made the announcement and left the press conference, we sought LKY and KTK response but they refused to comment.
When I return to the newsroom and brought the matter up to the editor, he dismissed it off hand, choosing to argue what Dr M actually meant.
The next day, the Malay papers went to town with it while the paper i worked for buried the story.
I never forget that day and will probably never will. I learnt Umno can do whatever it wants and MCA, Gerakan, MIC will always be subservient to the party.
April 13th, 2008 at 17: 35.50
YB LIM.
I think what YAB Lim Guan Eng ( Chief Minister of Penang) had stated on the squabbles and infighting among Umno leaders as ‘ family matters ‘, not involving pakatan is EXCELLENT.
YAB has distanced himself from being a party to their fall from grace and become disgraceful.
In similar context , i only could appeal that Yb Karpal Singh , could also stay away from the tit tat with Yab Tun’s allegations and persistent attack on Pakatan, especially Dap and PKR. Notice Tun, has not sharpened his knife on pas.
mca and gerakan are spent forces. the only publicity they could attract now is to be seen to be using the Islamic issues to distract the public from their own smelly stench of incompetency and corrupt practises. i would not give two hoots about their behaviour.
donald mcdonald, had even disclose that mca spies are out to video cam roaming mca leaders in hotel rooms or even expensive condos. maybe there are more than one chua soilek.
THE RAAYAT are no longer fooled by these spent ‘ selfish ,used ,expired once upon a time representative of chinese and multi races parties.
Pakatan can only move forward. Leave these baggages behind please.
April 13th, 2008 at 18: 13.09
What is the difference between Barisan Alternatif (“BA”) and Pakatan Rakyat (“PR”) besides the obvious one that DAP left BA because of ideological differences with PAS in 1999 and collaborates with PAS in PR in 2008 in spite of ideological differences???
Unless one says that in 2008 there are no ideological differences between PAS & DAP which of course even the most naïve would not believe.
Immediately after 8th March Kelantan Deputy Mentri Besar Datuk Ahmad Yaakub’s and press secretary to Pas president Roslan Shahir Mohd Shahir make the statements reaffirming “the values of the Islamic state were already incorporated in the “Negara Berkebajikan” and that “in states where Pas is the dominant party, we will try to set up an Islamic state”; PAS deputy spiritual leader Datuk Dr Haron Din said in Harakah Daily that PAS would amend the constitution and turn Malaysia into an Islamic state if it held control of the federal government.
From here is obvious the first difference is that in PR’s case, the second echelon leaders of PAS reaffirm the Islamic state (the ideological difference) while first echelon PAS leaders reaffirm PR’s common goals of good governance, accountability and dislodgement of common enemy BN. This is of course double-talk except not by same group but different groups (first and second echelons of PAS) within same party.
To say that PAS has dropped the Islamic state agenda is untenable because no first echelon leaders of PAS contradicts what its second echelon leaders - Ahmad Yaakub Roslan Shahir Mohd Shahir Dr Haron Din – said. Their non rebuttal and non contradiction must inexorably infer that PAS first echelon leaders endorse what second echelon leaders said, probably on their behalf. In fact PAS’s president Hadi made it clear that the Islamic state and Hudud will be implemented in PAS controlled state with muslim majority! It is to be deduced that PAS has not dropped its agenda even if it acquiesce with its exclusion in Proposition Manifesto of 2008.
What is more interesting is that PR’s other main component party -Parti Keadilan Rakyat & its defacto leader Anwar- also did not contradict what PAS’s second echelon said.
Only DAP’s LKS & Karpal Singh reaffirmed that DAP’s cooperation with PAS in PR was based on mandate of rakyat (both Malays & Non Malays) on March 8 for accountability, integrity, justice, democracy and good governance and not for Islamic state or hudud laws.
Of course DAP could say that – and keep repeating that – but is there use in this when there is no evidence so far that neither PAS nor PKR publicly agree for the record??? So in substance not much different from BA situation in 1999 is there???
Which brings me to second difference between BA in 1999 and PR in 2008. Now the Opposition parties are like barbarians reaching at the gates of BN’s citadel and fortress and due to the considerable confusion and disarray in the latter, the Opposition “barbarians” stands good chance to breach the walls, enter into the fortress and take over control. Needing the common effort none of the barbarians will talk of their irreconcilable differences, of how they are going to share the spoils and who is going to be dominant to asset its agenda just so not to spoil and weaken the common effort for the final assault.
We can understand the dynamics and logic of all that : but to say that there is peace and prospects of working together after the BN’s citadel is taken control of will be a triumph of hope over logic that imposes on even the most naïve.
In the circumstances it would be better counsel not to harp too much on alleged hypocrisy and double standards of MCA/Gerakan and their connivance with UMNO’s Islamic State especially when by no stretch UMNO’s Islamic state is on all fours (ideologically similar) when compared with that of the Islamic theocratic state espoused by PAS with whom DAP is collaborating under PR.
April 13th, 2008 at 18: 18.12
The principle that Malaysia is a secular state, where there is freedom, social justice and equality with special assistance to those who are weaker, poorer and handicaped, is sacrosanct.
This is basest principle on which the Pakatan Rakyat is formed.
If this policy could not be agreed wholeheartedly and pursued, there is no point in forming the people alliance and the power in 2-3 states be handed back to BN !
April 13th, 2008 at 18: 18.57
Sorry Typos - “acquiesced with its exclusion in Opposition Manifesto of 2008″… and “…who is going to be dominant to ASSERT its agenda just so not to spoil…”
April 13th, 2008 at 18: 21.00
Ya why bother to even reply to all the stupid comments from all the imbeciles in MCA and Gerakan. In most people mind, members of these parties are there only to enrich themselves by selling the rights of the people they claim to represent. Let them just die a natural death now that their master UMNO is going to implode. I would recommend politician to stay away from the mine field of religion and focus all your effort to governing the country and bring about its ascent. Look at Singapore. We are now being left so far behind. We have wasted enough of time. Come on guys go and learn something from these fellas in SG who simply make money fall from the sky for them. If they can do it we should be able to do it better. Just copy their methods.
April 13th, 2008 at 18: 22.55
Sebol says:
In Germany, there are Christian Democrat Party, That’s mean there are not secular.
—————————–
But I think most Germans go Church only 3 times in their life time.
1) First time - Baptism
2) Second Time - Marriage
3) Third Time - Death
Unlike the Catholic elsewhere, most of them can’t even recite their prayer.
April 13th, 2008 at 18: 23.29
For once on this topic, I agree with Jeffrey. The pot should not be calling the kettle black.
April 13th, 2008 at 18: 24.47
I congratulate PR leaders for coming up quickly to defuse any confusion, by saying that PAS leaders’ comments are personal in nature. It would be better for more senior PAS leaders to stand up and take this stand as well and to support Hadi Awang that it is not feasible to establish an Islamic State in Malaysia just to allay any concerns by the public.
We may not like to hear all these criticism from MCA, but it is a role they are expected to play, and PR has a role to quickly and effectively counter this head on. In fact, with MCA as the watchdog, PAS should be more careful what it says, just as DAP should be more careful in what it says even if it is saying the right things, with UMNO as the watchdog.
April 13th, 2008 at 18: 25.48
Yes, MCA and Gerakan are practising double standard, especially MCA; they are scared to death with UMNO. Never mumble a word when UMNO claimed Malaysia is an Islamic state, but keep harping on DAP on some PAS leaders’ statement on the issue. Shame on them!
With due respect to the royal family of Kelantan, I really feel saddened with the Regent’s speech. My goodness! Sad, sad, sad!
April 13th, 2008 at 18: 29.30
Why now? Why not before?
Link: http://www.kingsmary.blogspot.com/
April 13th, 2008 at 18: 32.34
MCA and Gerakan are now both irrelevant. Both trying very hard to impress the Chinese with their ‘huha’ but they forget that we are not bloody fools.
April 13th, 2008 at 18: 40.38
For PR to survive and be an effective political tool, the leaders of the DAP, PAS & PKR should just ignore the Islamic issue being dug up by the MCA and GERAKAN.
What is important is the Constitution. It is clearly stated that Malaysia is a secular nation and Islam is the official religion. It allows the existance of other religions and places of worship. What that oxymoron Mahathir or the Imam of Islam Hadhari says has no meaning. They were just playing to the gallery.
As usual the [deleted]in the MCA, GERAKAN & MIC did not even raise a whimper against those statements.
Please do not be drawn into arguing the Islamic issue. It would only cause dissent among the PR partners.
Please do not let down the rakyat who voted in the PR for change.
April 13th, 2008 at 18: 41.32
I think to the DAP, logic dictates the collaboration with PAS under PR in 2008 stands no better prospects in the longer term as that under BA in 1999. The only difference is the Aphrodisiac of Power - it is so near that it can be smelled and only with the power of unity (even betwen irreconcilable and diametrical opposites like DAP & PAS ) can the final goal be attained : dislodgment of the moribund BN that has so far been lodged itself like a HIV virus on the body politic draining it off all vitality. So any other options, no matter how destined to be unworkable, is in the minds of those oppsed to the ruling coalition worth the try. The human grasps at a straw in a desperate situation. There is a common and immediate enemy that needs to be dealt with, and there’s a longer term one. Under such a constraint, disparate groups of different ideologies unite to rid off the immediate enemy and once that is done, turn against one another to fight for dominance.
Now Historical case in point is : In World War II, Britain’s Winston Churchill US Franklin Delano Roosevelt (with their special relationship & common tradition) were pleased to join forces with Russian Communist Joseph Stalin to fight and put an end to common enemy, Fascist Nazis Adolf Hitler so that when the moment Berlin fell, the USSR Red Army and the Western Forces competed to take over as much of Europe as they could leading to erecting of the Berlin Wall dividing 2 separate spheres of hegemony, the Eastern European countries under the larger Communist Soviet Union and those on the other side under the liberal capitalist democracy of West and protection of NATO.
That’s politics - power and Malaysian players are no different.
So the fight between DAP & PAS will come later and I just hope that the DAP will not be worse off in that inevitable contest or more important the country’s and the rakyat’s agenda of accountability, integrity, justice, democracy and good governance will not be set further back in the fall out. Lets hope we don’t rid off racism & corruption for Islamo-facism gaining currency west of South East Asia.
April 13th, 2008 at 18: 56.15
MCA and Gerakan are only fooling themselves when they make such statements. There are so many Malays, Chinese and Indians who are fully aware of what they stand for - MCA and Gerakan DO NOT stand for interests of Malaysia and Malaysians; Gerakan cannot pretend nor hope to delude the rakyat into imagining that they are representing the interests of the Malays or Indians because they are rotten to the core and totally racist in their philosophy and values; they are play the race card all the time, theirs brand of politics is based on exclusion - like MCA, if you are not Chinese, you are not welcome. Gerakan leaders are all Chinese, right, save for an Indian here and there, where their voices cannot be heard at all. Sad part is MCA and Gerakan still don’t acknowledge that they have been REJECTED by the Chinese (MCA) and all races (Gerakan). Hey, many, many Chinese VOTED for PAS! Ask the Chinese in Kelantan! They chose to vote for PAS than to vote for running dogs, incidental serfs to UMNO and two-faced, fork-tongued cowards who didn’t dare to challenge Kerishamuddin but now want to talk about protecting non-Muslim interests! Pordah-lah!
April 13th, 2008 at 18: 56.20
Talking is one thing, action is another.
DAP may insist that DAP does not compromise on the issues of Islamic state and hudud laws. PAS may say PAS has left the Islamic state out of its political manifesto. PR may declare that all the bosses of the three political parties are united in realising a just Malaysia and that PR would walk the middle path and build a country which would be welcoming to Malays, Chinese, Indians, and others.
However, statements by different politicians from the political parties within PR are giving messages that disturb and confuse ordinary people and voters. These statements become the bullets of BN and will be fully twisted, exploited by the mainstream media.
For example, in response to AAB’s proposal that Malaysians who wish to convert to Islam must first inform their immediate families (which was immediately welcome by the Malaysian Consultative Council of Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Sikhism and Taoism), Kelantan Menteri Besar Datuk Nik Abdul Aziz Nik Mat yesterday said it is not necessary for non-Muslims to inform their family of their wish to embrace Islam.
Sometimes PR politicians forgot that they are ruling a number of states and aspiring to be the government-in-waiting. They still have the opposition mentality of speaking for the sake of criticising. They forgot that they are now living in the glass house, not outside. Throwing a stone at the glass house is easy, but do remember who is inside.
Already this country is stuck in so many negative things. Our citizens want to see things moving ahead as soon as possible.
PR, already facing many difficulties untangling the endless knots and cryptic actions left by the previous BN state governments, should be concentrating on rebuilding the fortunes of the various states under their control.
PR senior politicians should not be making contradictory statements and shooting their own feet every now and then. They should not be wasting their time doing damage control and fire-fighting all the time.
Otherwise, history will repeat itself - the three strange bedfellows, each having a different dream, will eventually go on their separate ways and lose the support of voters. What a shame!!!
April 13th, 2008 at 19: 03.25
Muhyiddin Yassin calling for Dollah to be dumped
http://themalaysianinsider.com/mni/muhyiddin-joins-call-for-urgent-change-in-umno-leadership.html
April 13th, 2008 at 19: 19.49
jeffrey.
i think the use of the terminology of “babarian” to describe pakatan raayat is of bad taste.
voters like me, certainly had much thought before we coss the x where dap and pas /pkr were in the last election.
had not the dap/pkr/pas decided upon a one to one contest, ,march 8th 2008 will not be the waterloo for bn.
pas will be pas and dap will be dap.
in similar context, how HAD, mca,mic,gerakan,ppp worked with umno. certainly umno did not start off as an islamic party but became more islamic than pas to win over the malays. but mind you, many malays especially the middle class are seeing Islam practise in malaysia stiffling their career and life. even jeanne abdullah have occasionally refuse to be ” tudunged”. this is elite malay.
just visit any of the ” to be seen places in kl,and the good crowd at the watering holes are malays . whether alcohol is consumed or not, i am not aware. but these places are strictly restricted if the practise of Islam is to hold .
i believe that malays themselves would reject hudud laws. it is only that rejection would be deemed unholy. but being holy is more than skin deep. it is the niat , and not the external. there is the zahir and the batin.
yrs truly.
April 13th, 2008 at 19: 27.42
It was very sad that MCA and GERAKAN have not learned about the real reason why they have have lost the Chinese support. Why they keep concentrating and focus on the cheap tactic on playing the racial and religious cards. The Chinese deserting you people because you have all dare not speak up for issues affecting all Malaysian and the Chinese also do not believe PAS will go for Islamic state. At least many people that I know, especially those in Kelantan, they are happy lot. The real issues that affecting us are Corruption. Do not wast your time and just focus on the Port Klang Free Trade Zone. Just disclose all if MCA boss (UMNO) do not agree you disclose then you should go ahead for full disclosure then and OTK tender his resignation . By doing do I am sure MCA can win back many many more votes in the year 2012.
April 13th, 2008 at 19: 38.33
ADAM YONG IBNI ABDULLAH, the use of the word “Barbarians at the Gates” as a metaphor is NOT intended to be derogatory or aspersions to Opposition Parties as to be attributed bad taste.
It is a metaphorical reference derived from the book “Barbarians at the Gate by” Bryan Burrough (Author) which Hollywood made a film of “Barbarians at the Gate (1993)”, starring: James Garner, Jonathan Pryce Director: Glenn Jordan .
Author, Bryan Burrough is a former reporter for the Wall Street Journal.
“Barbarians at the Gate” has been called one of the most influential business books of all time - the definitive and historical account of the largest takeover in Wall Street history. The book (a management investment banking book) tells the story of how the CEO of RJR Nabisco, F. Ross Johnson, frustrated with a low stock price, decided to propose a management led leveraged buyouts or LBO – the largest in history - of the firm. Barbarians at Gate in our context is Opposition parties take over of political/management control of Malaysian Inc (cash-rich like RJR Nabisco that has ceased to innovate or reinvent) to give good shareholders (or rakyat)’s returns.
April 13th, 2008 at 19: 44.05
YB Lim,
Frankly speak we the people did not vote or agreed on Islamic State (At least I am speaking on myself, and all my immediate family whom I convince to vote anything but BN)
My father an his friend can vote DAP without any problem, but when the option is BN vs PAS. They will vote BN without even think about it.
I manage to convince them no way PAS is going to rule and no way Malaysia is going to be an Islamic State. I even use RPK argument about the 2/3 majority.
When the S#*&!D PAS talk about the Islamic State again, and they call me and tell me off. I will hard time asking them to do the same in GE13.
You better work with PKR to control PAS big mouth else come GE13, PR will be history again.
My politic view and comment here..
http://shiokguy.blogspot.com/search/label/Politic
PAS said they are just politicking. Yeah right, sorry wrong Channel.
April 13th, 2008 at 19: 53.58
Uncle Kit
The real problem that worries me here is not MCA’s so-called hypocritical stance but your own delusion that PAS’ has suddenly turned a party that has given up on the Islamic state objectives and adopted democratic principles.
That TDM declaring Malaysia an Islamic state was a political move at that time to counter the pressure that PAS was bearing on him and attacking his Islamic credentials. I hope you are not too old to have forgotten those years.
TDM’s Islamic state was for all intent and purpose was purely semantical for it did not change the way the country was being administrated or policies being formulated.
But the PAS’ Islamic state model is a very different kettle of fish altogether. Comparing both is exercise in idiocacy that I certainly do not expect to come from someone of your intellect and integrity. So please stop making a fool of yourself. I am sure that you are not as naive as those twenty-something political greenhorns who has no knowledge of PAS’ history. That comparing Islam Hadhari to Hudud is like comparing a fire cracker to a 10 Mega-ton thermonuclear bomb.
The longer you live in such delusion, the bolder PAS becomes and the closer we edge to slippery slope of the Islamic Republic of Malaynistan. And obviously you and your strategists have not been following the discussions in the Harakah and other PAS blogs on their future plans on Islamisation of the nation. I do and I see the storms of Hudud laws hovering on the horizon.
Many non Muslims like me are deeply concerned that PAS’ political partners like DAP and PR unwittingly help the Islamist party to gain power and assist then in setting up an Islamic republic.
I had outlined in another thread on how exactly PAS plans to achieve their objectives and I do hope that all the PR-owned state governements monitor the activities of PAS and keep them in a very tight leash.
But you might have noted that in Kedah things are already changing though the public pronoucements of the MB is very different. I have a few friends working in Langkawi and they tell me that raids into entertaintment outlets there has started, led by the Mullahs of Jabatan Agama Islam. They are of the view that PAS’ plans to turn Langkawi into a sort of Islamic Paradise Island and encourage Arabs and Muslim tourist by inculcating Islamic values and policies. It is a matter of time that tax-free alcohols and bikinis are banned.They fear that with these crackdowns the non muslim tourists will be driven off.
PAS’ tactics are very much similar to those employed by Adolf Hitler and his NAZI party to gain power. And once this has been achieved it will be impossible to reverse it as all democratic instituitions will be abolished.
One of the aspects of Malaysian democraphics that many people are unaware is the declining birth rates and population % of non Muslims. Even in Penang the current 43% of Chinese population likely to decline and by 2013 the Muslims will be the majority. This will radically alter the political scene for DAP there.
I do hope that DAP not to place too great a hope on Anwar as a partner against PAS’ plans. For Anwar all it matters is the Prime Ministership and he would gladly be one, irrespective the country practices Westminster parlimentary democracy, Islamic Hudud or even Fascism. Like a Political Vampire, all he wants and needs is to drink and get intoxicated on naked political power.
April 13th, 2008 at 20: 00.35
ISLAMIC STATE: REAL OR JUST MERE RHETORIC?
I’m quite sure most would agree if I say the idea of an Islamic state is anathema to the Chinese as assimilation is.
Despite exhortations to the contrary (it is but mere exhortations because constitutionally this is not provided for and certainly not thought of) we all know that Malaysia can never be equated to an Islamic the way Pakistan is or Iran is. The “magic words” were first uttered by a leader who was facing challenges to his leadership and a quick end to his political career after some two decades. He chose to throw the monkey wrench to see if the machinery could be made to grind to a halt. It was his way of saying that as a leader he was indispensable. Well, he is not as history has now shown.
“Islamic state” is the wrong label to give to this issue today. We can all agree that nowhere does the country’s Constitution even come close to stating that Malaysia is an Islamic state. We should look at the accelerated encroachment into our fundamental liberties under the guise of Islamization as a human rights issue. Yes, it is but a human rights issue. When there is an issue as to whether the deceased has in fact and in law converted to Islam or is still a Hindu or a Buddhist when he dies, that issue which is one of conversion must be adjudicated by a civil court and not the syariah court. Malaysians (who are not Malays) should be allowed their freedom to follow whatever religion they choose. Is that not what a Muslim convert wants to do when he or she re-converts to his or her original religion? Is that not an exercise of her or his freedom of speech which is protected under the Constitution?
Politicians either side of the political divide would do well to refrain from referring to Malaysia as an Islamic state and address the real issues. Enough time has elapsed to convince us that there can be no end to the rhetoric. It is not much more than mere rhetoric. Now that elections are over, it is time we roll up our sleeves and look at the problem the way it ought to be looked at and. from the perspective of human rights.
There is nothing wrong with a double-tracked system of justice so long it is correctly applied. One applies to Muslims and the other to non-Muslims. If there is ambiguity in the language used, there is nothing that a constitutional amendment could not solve.
April 13th, 2008 at 20: 03.18
////And once this has been achieved it will be impossible to reverse it as all democratic institutions will be abolished/// - Killer. Well said. That’s the measuring cast of difference between PAS and UMNO. The latter uses religion for piolitical expedience : PAS means it.
April 13th, 2008 at 20: 04.14
Malaysia will be an Islamic state, sooner or later. It will be thru UMNO or PAS or another party. Who that is, I don’t know.
One thing I know, PAS will not change but it is not necessarily bad. It will live to fight for the betterment of Islam and Muslim in Malaysia. What I do hope to happen, is that in that journey, non-Muslim are not discriminated and marginalised.
To me, this is politics and it is about power. If one day, the non-Muslims’ power are greatly diminished, so will it’s ability to to influence what happens.
Imagine that in the years to come (another 50, 100, 150 years?) when non-Muslim is only 0.5% of the population of Malaysia, it is not fair to still object to Malaysia being a Islamic country.
This is an eventuality, Malaysia will be a Muslim country. It will come to past and only the timing is unsure.
As much as I hate to say it, each of the current main ethnic groups have a strong sense of pride and heritage. The yellow people will always be yellow. The Malays will always be Malays. The Indians will always be Indians too.
We cannot deny our ethnic heritage. It is who we are. To lose it is to lose our identity. In some ways, this heritage of ours will create a duality, we are all Bangsa Malaysia BUT we are also individually Chinese, Malay or Indians too.
Should this then be a hindrance to meaningful co-existence? By all means, NO!
However, we need to learn how to live together or we can choose to leave Malaysia (even that is better than ethnic riots and chaos).
A lot of us have chosen to stay (by choice or pressured by circumstances) here, and some have chosen to not to. To each his own.
To those who stay, we need to make it work.
To the majority group, do not be mistaken. Do not enslave the minority, for none had been made a master or another. We need to be fair to all and no one will stand for ‘penindasan’ to be perpetuated.
Be truthful and be fair, and the rest will take care of itself.
April 13th, 2008 at 20: 08.36
So ChinNA from what you said, do you think or conclude that the DAP has been used (deceived) via Pakatan Rakyat as stepping stone to advance and further by several steps ahead PAS’s Islamic theocratic agenda???
April 13th, 2008 at 20: 19.03
Dear YB Lim,
Like many I am taken by great surprise with the March election results.I thought it will never happen in my life time when the Malay voters deserted UMNO and even voted for DAP.Please treasure this and never never loose it.UMNO is in deep trouble and will be difficult for them to regain their past glory.Do not fall into any trap or do anything stupid which will drive the Malay masses back into UMNO’s dirty arms.
I always find DAP’s response to the Islamic state issue rather worrying.When any of the mainstream newspapers reports something supposedly spoken by a Pas leader DAP always jumps.Just stay calm and seek clarification before you guys react.
Just 2 days ago SinChew on their frontpage headline screamed that Pas wants to grab central power and implement the Hudud.They claimed to have pick that from Harakahdaily. YB Lim, please go to Harakdaily.com and read the original article.Dato Dr Haron Din was quoted to say that Pas needs to control the central government before it can implement Hudud.I may not understand it fully but from what I can read it seems that he is quite resigned to the fact that Pas can never gain enough power to amend the constitution to change the present laws into Islamic laws.He admitted that we are secular.
When Dato Ahmad Yaacob was quoted by the BN papers about Pas being the prime power in Pakatan Rakyat,again every one especially you guys from DAP jumped.Everybody seems to be so trusting of the Star, New Straits Times etc.When the Dato gave his comments later on the reactions, non of the BN papers bother to report.
YB Lim,my point is to plead with you guys not to help UMNO regain their power.Don’t fall into their traps and start friction with Pas or PKR.The Malay population may just react the way UMNO wants.
April 13th, 2008 at 20: 22.53
It is disingenous to think along the lines that DAP “has been used (deceived) via Pakatan Rakyat…”. It could well be that the DAP has used Pakatan Rakyat to get to where it is today or it could well be that all the three parties have used each other for their own ends.
April 13th, 2008 at 20: 28.28
The issue of PAS islamic state agenda should not arise anymore. The islamic principal is the core of their party and it is their right to do so.
I think its the similar concept. DAP’s fundamentals are based on socialist principles, while PAS’s are based on islamic principles.
But despite the differences, there are similarities as well. Peace, justice, equality, honesty, etc.
Forget about the issue! Move on!
April 13th, 2008 at 20: 39.50
Let me tell you a story.
A man walks thru the door and gets into the house to he confessed that he wants to join the religious fraternity of people already living in this house. However, he cannot get out because the door does not permit a fraternity member to get out.
Has this violated the freedom of the man to stay or leave this fraternity?
However, please note this had been a practice of this fraternity to prevent anyone from getting out of the house because once a person joins the fraternity, he is not allowed to get out.
So even if this man no longer wants to part of this fraternity, he is still forced to be in it.
Now, there comes a second man. He visits his friends in this house every other week and this went on for years. Unfortunately this second man died. His friends claimed that he is a member of this fraternity and he needs to be buried according to the rules and rites of this fraternity.
Understandably the second man’s family understands and agrees to this request because a day before he passed away, this second man declared to all his family and friends that his intends to join this fraternity on the next morning.
Time passed and a third man too passed way. He is just like the second man, a passionate, sincere and honest person. This time, again, his friends at the fraternity made the same request to this third man’s family.
Well, there were some resistance as the family believes in their heart that this third man would not have done that due to his convictions.
They finally relented due to might of the fraternity. This fraternity had the backing of the highest court in the land behind them. However, this family believes that he who takes the body does not take the spirit and soul. When the time is right, the third man shall return in an uncorruptible body.
At this juncture I would like to raise a 3 questions:
1. Is preventing the first man to leave the fraternity correct when he no longer wants to be a member?
2. Does the act of declaration by the second man helps to clarify a lot of misunderstanding?
3. Does the act of the members of this fraternity a pursuit of godliness?
Maybe some of the readers have something to say. I would be glad to know your views.
April 13th, 2008 at 20: 43.58
Jefferey,
I did not draw those conclusions and it is not my intent to drive readers to those conclusions.
One thing I know, if we go to the bargaining table, we need to have things of value to the other party.
Without which, there is nothing to bargain at all.
That would be a sad day indeed, when it happens.
Thanks for the comments.
April 13th, 2008 at 20: 44.58
What difference does it make whether it is UMNO who declares Malaysia an Islamic state or PAS doing so? Like I say, if at all Malaysia is an Islamic state, MCA and Gerakan have to get out of BN as soon as possible for they do not qualify to remain in the parliament of an Islamic nation.
The question is are these morons from MCA or Gerakan HALAL at all? Do they not consume pork? Have they been circumcised? Have they thrown away their ancestral worship tablets? If these people from MCA or Gerakan have not complied with these conditions, how can they support the saying “MALAYSIA IS AN ISLAMIC STATE” or remain with BN as partners in government!!!!
April 13th, 2008 at 20: 47.55
The issue today is not who used who to get to where. The issue now is, having got to where we are, what shall we do? Shall we sink our differences and seize on the moment which comes round once in a generation or more, to work together for a better future for all Malaysians? Or should we just let it pass?
April 13th, 2008 at 20: 48.00
SOCIAL CONTRACT!!!!!! YOU CAN TELL THAT TO MY FOREBEARS ………………..I AM BORN AND BRED HERE IN MALAYSIA SO THAT MAKES ME AS “BUMIPUTRA”AS ANYONE ELSE.
April 13th, 2008 at 21: 26.12
I don’t agreed.
We can have all Malaysian to be a Muslim, but we will still against a federal gov based on Hudud law, or Islamic principle.
Don’t mixed politic with religion. They simple not suppose to be mixed. Like we do not accept racial based party, we reject it in GE12. And we should reject it in GE13 at the same time we shall reject religion based political party.
I will help to make sure it will happen. Me having Wet Dream?
April 13th, 2008 at 21: 41.26
50 years to spoil everything and people must be dumb enough to think that restoration can take place within a few days.
Not just the Ministry of Health, but also the whole government of Malaysia under Barisan Nasional that needs a lot of overhauling works.
Rumours have it that PTD ( pegawai tadbir dan diplomatik ) aka managers do not listen to the voice of the grassroots’ levels. In this case, then stop telling people to be like this and like that; work as a team, but in reality it is not done. I thought professionally educated managers should know how to manage properly.
If the Prime Minister resigns, it too is not enough to restore back those 50 years. May be it is not restoration. May be it is tearing down and building up again. Tearing down all the nonsense. Building up what should be built up.
April 13th, 2008 at 21: 42.44
Why worry ,everyone?
Even PAS win ALL their allocated parliament seats , they cannot
form the government , not even to mention you need 2/3 of total seats.
Even PKR won’t support that.
Please stop all the argument and let Anwar toppled the present BN,
and this is the MOST IMPORTANT PRIORITY.
The rest we will take it one at a time.
MCA and Gerakan have sold their souls out generations ago
and I hope the next round we will finish them off forever.
Honestly, I thing Ummo will be here to stay , but as a minor opposition party after the next round.
I will be here the next round and the next
April 13th, 2008 at 21: 53.46
It is most unbecoming behaviour of MCA & Gerakan to behave hypocryptically as far as the issue of whether Malaysia is an Islamic State or may become one in the future by attacking other people or parties except themselves.
We do not where they would stand at this moment if the PM Abdullah is going to declare once again, like before, that Malaysia is an Islamic State now?
All they would say is: Yes, yes, yes… They have no qualm in saying that.
April 13th, 2008 at 22: 02.38
“It could well be that the DAP has used Pakatan Rakyat to get to where it is today or it could well be that all the three parties have used each other for their own ends” (Godfather) – that is a fair comment. Equally true is Undergrad2’s comment – “The issue today is not who used who to get to where. The issue now is, having got to where we are, what shall we do? Shall we “seize on the moment which comes round once in a generation or more, to work together for a better future for all Malaysians? Or should we just let it pass?”
Now the three Opposition parties having used each other for their own ends have achieved to arrive at the doorstep of seizing the moment – the power from BN – what is likely to happen next?
There is no question everyone says it works “for a better future for all Malaysians” but the question is whose version of better future for all Malaysians will prevail???
People here behind DAP believe it is in separation of religion from government and governance by man made laws whereas PAS supporters believe in a theocratic state in which religion and government are integrated and governance by Divine Sharia laws.
In such a competition for the future for all Malaysians, which agenda - between secular and a theocratic one – after a certain point ie. the point of taking over power from the BN has the better chance to succeed taking into consideration our cultural milieu, racial composition etc???
So it is correct that “the issue today is not who used who to get to where” but rather after getting to where everyone wanted, who will, from that point onwards, stand to reap greater mileage to make its agenda prevail over the other, having regard to existing parameters of our cultural milieu, racial composition and existing laws and the nature of majority of politicians on both sides of the fence. This is the other question that we should all ask.
April 13th, 2008 at 22: 14.57
Take the case of Perak. DAP, PKR and PAS “used one another” to get where they are - wining the state government. DAP & PKR had won majority of state seats, not PAS but it is PAS nominee that got the Menteri Besar position not only because he is qualified academic sense but also because he meets pre-eligibility requirements in state constitution requiring a ethnic Malay to be MB. In other words, I talking of the existing infrastructure of laws and custom and usage in the country. At Federal level then, with Constitution saying Islam is official religion, with many moderate muslim daren’t openly speak against PAS’s brand of politics, with religious sympathisers in all sectors of civil service, tertiary and judicial establishment and uniformed services - with TDM’s 20 years of Islamisation in place - with this entire infrastructure, from the point of getting BN out onwards, which party will most likely be at vantage point and have natural advantage from the existing “infrastructure” in place to assert and make its agenda prevail over the rest?
April 13th, 2008 at 22: 34.56
Declaring Malaysia as an Islamic country and implementing Hudud laws and turning the country into the Islamic republic of Malaynistan is two entirely and mutually exclusive matters.
One of the key reasons why many non Muslims rejected BN in 12GE is that the creeping Islamisation under the AAB’s rule as examplefied by the episodes of “body snatching” and tugs-of-war over departed family members or children.
And now to say that (as stated by ChinNA) Malaysia will be an Islamic state sooner or later and we all have to accept is in my view is totally NOT ACCEPTABLE.
As I had stated earlier, the Islamic state models of UMNO and PAS are as different as a festive firecracker and a 10 Mega Ton Thermonuclear bomb. UMNO is a fundamentally secular party that tries to infuses Islamic elements into the Malay culture. PAS on the otherhand is a fundmental party which has no use for culture and tries to bulldoze over local elements by its imported brand of radical Wahabbi-brand of Islam.
Don’t forget that the Islamisation of UMNO was the direct result of PAS’ pressure and the influence of none other than Anwar Ibrahim. Some of us will recall that the entry of Anwar into UMNO heralded a new era where the party was given a green make over. And Anwar implemented so many new religious initiatives within the government and UMNO. Many still recall with bitterness when Anwar pushed through Islamic Civilization as one of the subjects for all non Muslims students as one of the compulsory subject despite the vehement objections from various quarters.
ChinNA, I think you are confusing between an Islamic nation (which we are according to BN) and the one based on Hudud laws. If you wish to see the difference, try living in Iran.
While I don’t dimiss the possibility of Malaysia turning Malaynistan, the majority of Malaysian Muslims are against Hudud laws (based on the poll by MRC). But if PAS gains power (either thru PR or alone), then we can be sure that Malaysia will turned into an Islamic Republic ala Iran. And that will also spelt the end of all democratic instituitions and there will be no way to reverse it as multi-party elections will be abolished (unless you want to choose one Mullah over the other Mullah) as well.
That glossing over PAS’ objectives and adopting the ostrich-posture while making a pwer-grab for the Federal govt will only postpone the Day of Reckoning.
Some supporters’ assertion that we should focus on similarities rather than differences are fine when you are in the Opposition and not when you actually rule the nation. This is because when you are in the Opposition all you do is crititcise but when you are entrusted to administer, you must know make decisions on daily or even hourly basis. So hiding behind shared objectives will no longer tenable or enough.
This problem is also has afflicted Uncle Kit here. He seems to have stuck in the “Retro” mode of dishing out criticisms rather than being in the “Forward” mode of making decisions that will propel the country to a new level of social equality, religious freedom, governmental transparency and personal liberties.
April 13th, 2008 at 22: 41.21
Can someone please tell me how bad is an Islamic State? so I can prepare for the worse.
1. no liquer? I can live with that.
2. no bikini? No problem.
3. no porno on the net? Even better.
does it mean
1. no equality in education, business deal, and what else? no freedom of religion? culture? language?
anyone got a scenario?
how bad can it be?
April 13th, 2008 at 22: 51.01
The leeann,
I always believe freedom of choice.
I just went to Penang Forum, looks like to tackle such issues, it is not so easy, we must have a social infrastructure to sustain unity. Social infrastructure, comes in all form.
Pls, visit my site leave some comments, i’ve taken some pictures of the Penang forum at my site jbozz23.proboards105.com feel free to leave some comments etc.
April 13th, 2008 at 23: 00.49
I was thinking my friends are in Kelantan since born, n she is still a Buddhist, go to Chinese school, having the right education.
Enough wealth to go for holiday, having fun at the islands around.
If PAS was to totally change the whole culture, they would have done it many years ago.
And if they were to change it like Iran, it would face resistant from many others.
And right now, PAS is only the MB in Perak. If he is bad, then we vote him out next election.
Are we so terrify of something that is not even coming yet?
I think right now PR should concentrate on fixing and improving, and ignore whatever instigation from others.
These Gerakan and MCA were just trying to break PR up so they have chance the next time.
And if PAS can’t work, it is easy to kick them out of PR.
Nothing is impossible.
April 13th, 2008 at 23: 02.55
Thank you lakilompat, I need that site.
April 13th, 2008 at 23: 07.50
leeann
Your question is not an unfamiliar one coming from many twenty-something Malaysians.
I have rather interesting background on this topic even though I am a non Muslim. Perhaps you have seen that I have given a bit of my background but if you had missed, please allow me to share it.
I studied in a local university some years back and at that time this university was completely run over by the PAS supporters controlling everything from the teaching and admin staff to student councils.
Though the UUCA forbids political activities, no body really cared. The lecturers were card-carrying PAS members who never interested in teaching but only in spewing anti-govt venoms and initimidate moderate Muslims in the class.
The HEP meanwhile introduced measures such as no shorts for sports even for male students, no actvities during praying time (you need to stop playing football when the prayer rings out of the speakers), no minggling of sexes, wearing of tudungs for non Muslim females for official functions and orientation week, total ban on any cultural activities (including Malay ones), no entertaintments, etc,ctc. The only thing that we ever had was sports but even in this the discrimination was based in religion.
The student council in meantime organised ceramah after ceramah on religious matters and completely ignored the existance of students of other religion. And then there was the political ceramahs that invited the PAS leaders.
I had many friends in my class who were PAS activist and some of them who hold high national level positions in the party. We still keep in touch and once in a while meet up for a chat.
So having brought up in such environment, I am well aware of what PAS and their brand of Wahabbi style Islam entails.
April 13th, 2008 at 23: 15.46
PAS is clear that it would want to make this an Islamic state, whatever that means, if it can. This would be possible when the population in the country are closer to 100% muslims, and when most of them prefer it to be Islamic state. If BN continues its rule uninterrupted, with another two million non-Malays leaving our shore in the next three decades, the population structure in the country could come close to be an Islamic state.
When PAS takes over the influence of the Malays, and UMNO leaders are willing to follow the lifestyle of PAS leaders, and they are able to obtain 2/3 majority it would be possible that Islamic state could be formed. However, if Pakatan Rakyat would move away from corruption and prove to be a government for all Malaysians, there would not be a need to sing the tune of Ketuanan Melayu. Without the push effect, the population ratio among the various ethnic groups would not undergo drastic changes in the next few decades, even if BN and BR alternately assumes power, Islamic state would remain only a vision for PAS.
Meanwhile DAP should accept the fact that its coalition partners had different visions, but it should be willing to pull out of the coalition when they cannot agree to a common approach to serving the people.
The threat of Islamic state is not of immediate concern compared to Ketuanan Melayu, for non-Malays. In fact when Malaysia becomes an Islamic state, it would be through Ketuanan Melayu programmes, and there would not be many non-Malays left anyway.
April 13th, 2008 at 23: 17.11
Killer,
Thanks.
If I were there, I think I would have been a Aminah right now. Brain washed. It sounds boring but it was not really harming of what you experienced. I wish I could feel the fear of that but I just can’t.
Any other bad things they did to you? I am curious.
April 13th, 2008 at 23: 26.55
leeann
Perhaps you have not much exposure, just like our friend lakilompat.
Ok, let me list what PAS’ Islamic state means to us:
1. Hudud laws: Some examples
- Brutal and uncivilised punishments such as amputations, stoning, whipping
- Raped woman needs 5 witnesses to charge the rapist otherwise she will be prosecuted with adultery if she bears the child (punishment is stoning to death)
2. Woman rights : well, basically it doesn’t exist.They can’t vote, work (unless when it involves only women), get educated, drive a car, go out alone, etc. They must wear veils (tudung), cover the whole body, no make up, etc.
3. Personal liberties : No one can question the Ulama as they are the rep of the God. Only they are allowed to interpret the laws and their word is final. Personal liberties are sacrified for the good of religion (and the ruling Mullah)
4. Democracy : there is no democracy, only theocracy. under this model you don’t question, you just follow orders. There will be no multi-party elections. Once you change to Islamic state, there is no turning back.
5. Entertainment : Movies, songs,etc are forbidden unless it is about praising the lord or Mullahs
6. Minority rights : they are segregated and have no social & economic status or rights. They have to pay much higher taxes but enjoy lesser rights. While there will be no right pressure to convert, there will be tremendous indirect pressure
7. Education : No secular system but religious based one.
8. Discrimination : While there will be no racial discrimination, but this will be replaced by even worse religious based one
9. Others :
- No eating or business activities during the fasting month
- Segregation of sexes in all aspects of social life
- No alcohol, pork. cigarettes, gambling,etc
- TV and radio programs only religious based
April 13th, 2008 at 23: 27.58
I think Loh is right, things like that may come in the next few decades or it may not come at all.
I dun think PAS is a major concern now, it is only their vision as Loh said.
I have a feeling it will remain their vision forever.
But PR will break up very soon if PAS issue continue and BN will rule back, it is just their dirty tactic.
And when BN is back, we will face the same problems over and over again.
Damn….n it is not fun.
April 13th, 2008 at 23: 42.03
Loh
You are reading it wrongly.
UMNO’s Islamisation programs are just a reaction to PAS’ more extreme brand of Wahabbism. These two parties are fighting to win the minds of muslims and based on the MRC polls the Muslims prefer a less radical brand of Islam although they would like to see Islamic values to be infused to their lives.
This is no very different from the resurgent of religious activitism among the non Muslims too. But as long as this brand of Islam is not extreme and can work with other religions I am fine. That’s why AAB has introduced Islamd Hadhari which is a brand of enlightened Islam for the modern world.
Even if Malaysia is 100% Muslims and ruled by UMNO, I very much doubt that it will turn into Malaynistan.
While you are rightly concerned about Ketuanan Melayu, this is not all about Kris-waving. This merely means that the Malays’ special rights must be respected. We have lived with this for almost 4 decades and the non bumis still having their culture,language and religion preserved as nowhere else outside their native countries. The bumis had demonstrated that they are willing to share the country with their non bumi brothers and sisters.
BTW this oft repeated story 2 million non Malays leaving the country is one without factual basis.
April 13th, 2008 at 23: 45.46
At this time, Anwar should look for someone can be his successor even though at present he might think no body is suitable at present. The person should be capable and able to lead the party in the future election, even without Anwar existence.
In the recent movement, he could risking his life as he is continuing jeopardise “TOP” minister position in the country, as if these people think he is the “torn” to their party.
April 13th, 2008 at 23: 52.14
leeann
well this is the typical reaction of many young Malaysians who had voted for PR, saying more out of wishful thinking than basing facts and logical reasoning.
Many of these young people voted out of frustration on what they perceived as increasing Islamisation but the funny thing is PR has a party which declared objective is Iranian style Islamic state. I personally find it hard to phantom such reasoning.
I wish I could share your optimism about PAS but why do you think they are already talking about forming the federal govt and turning the county into Malaynistan ?
Also it is not so simple that DAP can walk out of PR. If DAP walks out, then the Perak state will fall to BN and in Penang they will not have 2/3. The same goes for Selangor.
April 13th, 2008 at 23: 55.14
Life is about taking risk anyway.
We will dump UMNO anyway no matter what.
I would like to see and wait like what Raja Petra predicted,
There will be 2 parties. BN n PR.
April 14th, 2008 at 00: 09.25
Killer,
Thanks for elucidation to readers here Wahabbi style political Islam of PAS as in large swathes of other Middle Eastern Countries. Many have direct experience the oppressive policies of BN/UMNO and none, much of Islamo-facism so perhaps one can understand why the imperative of getting rid of BN, even in the process of collaborating with or strengthening PAS’s agenda is deemed quite acceptable when weighing cost and benefit. Hence the attitude “Life is about taking risk anyway” by leeann.
Kelantan is always used as point of reference why PAS is moderate and that rejection of PAS by detractors is branded as irrational ‘Islamophobia’. This approach does not take into consideration that Kelantan is a special ‘show case’ to sell PAS’s agenda to rest of Multiracial Malysia. Just like the way the ‘show house’ (with renovation costing more than construction cost of the unit) is used in developer’s launch to sell their houses….UMNO’s racial or corrupt policies may or may not be reversible : their underlying drive is power and capitalistic. If they need to ameliorate and change their packaging for the market (voters) to accept, they may re-invent for the better since their main goal is retain power and make money like other political parties/politicians in the more modern so called first world countries. The difference in PAS’s case is that its agenda is ultimately not subject to re-invention, compromise or reversal for the simple reason that, to believers, the formation of the Almighty’s state as near to the original one as possible is a sacred mission that is immutable and unchanging and cannot be subject to compromise. All compromises are but temporary to serve and work towards the ultimate goal.
April 14th, 2008 at 00: 10.29
Thanks, Jeffrey, for your very helpful and thoughtful comments here! I hope your well-reasoned and well-articulated comments will persuade many people.
PAS’ version of Islamic State is far and away more dangerous than UMNO’s nominal version (though I think the latter’s subtle Islamisation should also be resisted). I’m afraid DAP is not well-placed to criticise MCA and GERAKAN on the issue of Islamic state, given its current co-operation with PAS in PR. But DAP’s reiteration of its commitment to a secular pluralist Malaysia at this juncture is very helpful.
April 14th, 2008 at 00: 16.24
Risk is indeed inevitable, but rationality requires that we opt for a course of action that will most probably lead to maximal gains and minimal losses.
April 14th, 2008 at 00: 23.07
Just for the sake of argument and clarifying our thoughts, assume that when Parliament convenes in a few days, a Muslim MP stands up with a Private Bill which proposes a Constitutional amendment to abolish the civil courts and vest all judicial powers on the Syariah Courts with the consequential removal of all laws which do not conform with Islamic jurisprudence and the interpretation of the remaining applicable laws according to Islamic tenets and principles, and against all odds, he manages to convince two-thirds of Parliament and the Bill became law, do we accept that result, that law amending the constitution, as part and parcel of the game played according to the rules of democracy? Of course it will not happen at least for the foreseeable future, it is just a hypothetical question just like a law school examination question, but the same democratic and constitutional law principle is all the same applicable. The constitution can be amended by the rules contained in the constitution.
Someone said in this thread that if the population of the non-Muslims were to dwindle to insignificance and the 99% Muslim majority wants an Islamic State, what can the insignificant minority say or do? As it is, we need only a 67% majority, not of the people but of the Parliamentarians, to be able to amend the Consttitution in whatever ways they want.
PAS is entitled to their dreams and rights of installing an Islamic State through the democratic process according to the rules as laid down in the constitution. So is UMNO in pursuing their Malay agenda and the MCA and MIC in their aspirations to be chained in slavery to UMNO.
What can the DAP do? As I have always said, DAP should work for a further entrenchment of the secular nature of the constitution. For example, PAS and DAP can agree that for a Islamic State to be installed, a referendum needs to be carried out and a certain majority of the peoples’ votes is necessary before the constitutional amendments to that effect can carry. That would be a more constructive way of handling the impasse.
Assuming there is a private bill proposed for the total abolition of Chinese schools. Of course, no MP in his right mind would do that but this is also a hypothetical question posed for the sake of discussion and argument. What should DAP do if they are opposed to the bill? You just cannot stop someone from introducing a bill in a democracy. You can call him names, criticise the move till you are blue in the face but if that MP persists, the matter will still have its day to be debated in Parliament. Say that the bill has a good chance of being passed through Parliament. What do we do? We play the game by the rules - back-door dealings between MP’s, creating the mood and momentum of protests by the people through whatever means, get empirical research and evidence to support our argument against the Bill, get the support of leaders in the field of education….etc., etc. and if all else fails, through the ballot box.
Same for the Islamic State issue. We must be clear in our mind and accept the fact that PAS has every legitimate and democratic right to aspire and work towards an Islamic State, just like the DAP is legitimately and democratically entitled to want a secular Malaysian Malaysia. We can register our disapproval or objection to an Islamic State; that is also our democratic right and we are entitled to register our opposition in the loudest way. But by being loud alone would not get us anywhere if PAS is successfully working from the ground up and surreptitiously, slowly but surely, getting the numbers to get through Parliament a change in the constitution to make their dreams come true. We have to do more than shouting. We play by the rules to thwart their efforts.
First and foremost, we must articulate why we oppose an Islamic State. Saying that an Islamic State would sanction draconian laws like amputation etc would not be sufficient and reveals more our ignorance of Islam than knowledge of it. As far as I know, the evidentiary requirement to nail a person for a crime which invites that kind of punishment is much higher than our civil law requirement. Anyway, their counter argument to that is simple - Islamic law applies only to Muslims, therefore why are you so concerned?
To counter arguments for an Islamic State, we need to know Islam accurately and deeply. We need to have the resources, knowledge, substance, legitimacy to enter into the arena to discuss and refute arguments for an Islamic State. Our target should not be the non-Muslims for they are with us. We should be able to address the moderate and modern Muslims and win them to our side by well-articulated and dispassionate discourses and persuasion based on a proper, accurate and legitimate interpretation of Islam without necessarily being condescending about it. We should not criticise just for the sake of criticising.
In the meanwhile, we can start encouraging PAS to declare their stand and what they would have done if faced with the facts of Lina Joy or the predicament of the Seremban Chinese family in the latest body snatching case. What is their belief in the matter of conversion out of Islam? The Quran is silent on that. Some read the Hadith as imposing a death sentence for murtads while others place a historical context for that pronouncement and say that the death penalty does not apply outside that historical context. What is the official stand of PAS on this? How, in PAS’ view and belief, can a Muslim convert out of Islam? I, for one, do not know their stand on this issue.
The point is that it is immediately wrong to expect and want PAS to do away with or denounce their Islamic State agenda. In any event, they would not. Would the DAP do away with their Malaysian Malaysia? Don’t expect others to do what you would not do. I am sure DAP do not demand that PAS retract their aspiration for an Islamic State; they just do not support it and just want PAS to keep quiet about it, at least for the time being. But I think the better course is to engage in a dispassionate discussion, discourse and debate with PAS about its perspectives on an Islamic State ( what the hell is that? I am sure many are still very much in the dark about what that State entails so far as PAS is concerned), and if an Islamic State as envisaged by PAS is not very different from a conscionably administered, justice-based state, whether we should or could just agree to drop the use of the term “Islamic State”, whether in their Islamic State, non-Muslims can still enjoy the civil law and the civil courts, the position of other religions and their practices and places of worship etc etc. We need all these answers in the open.
As it is now, everytime PAS opens their mouth about an Islamic State, DAP is put on the defensive and the new opposition parties, MCA and Gerakan, jump in to confront and attempt to embarrass DAP by accusing it of supporting PAS or bluffing the people. To me, I will just ask them to spell out clearly what is it about an Islamic State they are so averse to. They jump at the mention of the words “Islamic State” and I venture to think that they have no idea what is it that they are so opposed to except for the fact that it is something Islamic or something to do with Islam. After being slaves of UMNO for so long, one would have thought that they would have got very used to anything Islamic. Anyway, we should not waste too much of our time on irrelevance or irrelevant people.
I guess what I am trying to say at the end of it all is that we must not fear the aspiration of PAS for an Islamic State. We must not pre-judge or misjudge Islam. The best thing to do with fear is to know that which you fear about and after all the knowing, we may find that the fear was not warranted in the first place anyway. I believe our mind should be open to and walk into the Islamic world and know it well without having to embrace it.
I want to be pragmatic - there is no way in Malaysia that we can be spared of the Islamisation process. My plan is simple - Stay put if it is bearable and get the hell out of it if is not. This is my right and nobody can take that away. But given an opportunity, I would stay back to help those who are not as fortunate to have the luxury of migrating.
The first step to assuage our fear may just be the simple step of visiting and staying for a while in Kelantan and experience life there as a non-Muslim. I have been there and life as a non-Muslim there is not that oppresive or frightening. I would say that the general state of relationship and harmony between Muslims and non-Muslims is much better than many other parts of Malaysia that I have been to. It is a case I think of more politics and polemics against than the simple truth about Islam.
I am not for an Islamic State, I want to make this very clear. But I don’t want to cringe or be emasculated by the fear of it either. Do we have a choice with or about Islam and Islamisation in Malaysia?
April 14th, 2008 at 00: 24.05
Here we go again…the anti-PAS guy living in the UK giving us dire warnings about the future of Bolehland and of Pakatan Rakyat. Guess we are now inviting anti-Islam comments as well.
April 14th, 2008 at 00: 40.20
PAS has the right to pursue whatever it wants. But if it wants to be part of PR alongside DAP, either DAP or PAS must give up some of its rights to pursue some agendas if some of DAP’s agendas are based on an ideology that clashes with PAS’s or vice versa.
Given that DAP does not want to give up its ideology of secular pluralist democracy, it should either
i. persuade PAS to give up its ideology, OR
ii. withdraw from PR
Thus, no one is asking anyone to deny PAS’ right to pursue its own agendas.
April 14th, 2008 at 00: 53.35
What sort of language are you talking ?
“PAS has the right to pursue whatever it wants.” Then, “PAS must give up some of its rights to pursue some agendas if…”.
Does Cambridge teach this sort of doublespeak ?
April 14th, 2008 at 00: 56.13
Let us use a concrete present day example as illustration of the difficuties foreseeable.
PM Badawi proposes amendment of law to make it compulsory for non-Muslims to inform their family before converting to Islam to avoid problems in future, like tussles over the remains of a deceased convert for burial.
What is Pakatan Rakyat’s response? Will DAP & PAS vote against or for the PM’s proposal in Parliament?
Kelantan MB & PAS’s spiritual advisor Nik Aziz is on record for stating that it was not necessary for non-Muslims to inform their family of their wish to embrace Islam. Nik Aziz said the requirement for would-be Muslim to do so could hinder them from converting to Islam. The PAS spiritual leader said nobody should stop anyone from embracing Islam.”It is not right to impose the requirement (to inform family members) of one’s desire to embrace Islam because it concerns an individual’s right.”
Would DAP vote the same way as PAS??? I’m sure that DAP is looking at the rights of other family members with whom the intending convert had an earlier relationship and understanding premised on him not being a muslim. PAS is however prioritizing the convert’s right over all other family members, hence dispensing the re-requirement prior consultation proposed by PM.
So back to the question : Can DAP & PAS work within an Opposition Coalition; can they even vote the same direction on a simple issue like the one raised by the PM?
This is just one simple issue of the many to come….
This bears on the issues raised by Lee Wang Yen – “Given that DAP does not want to give up its ideology of secular pluralist democracy, it should either
i. persuade PAS to give up its ideology, OR
ii. withdraw from PR….”
April 14th, 2008 at 00: 58.56
C’mon guys, wake up ! We all know that PAS cannot give up its ideology - we’ve known this for over 30 years - so why the hypocrisy of asking them to do so ? Just say what you guys really mean - DAP should withdraw from PR. Don’t give this so-called nobility of choice, when the choice is clearly not available.
April 14th, 2008 at 00: 59.44
A Party X can of course pursue whatever X as a party wants to pursue.
But if it wants to join a coalition, it must adopt the common policies/agendas of that coalition. If the common policies/agendas of that coalition clash with some of X’s own agendas Y, X can either
1. drop those agendas Y
2. persuade other members in the coalition to amend their common agendas/policies so that Y no longer clashes with them.
3. stay away from the coalition.
April 14th, 2008 at 01: 01.01
Kit knows better than most that by asking PAS to abandon its Islamic agenda is like asking the PAS leadership to commit harakiri. That’s why Kit is between a rock and a hard place.
He isn’t helped by this constant harping of “PAS, please give up your agenda, or else….”.
April 14th, 2008 at 01: 02.49
BTW, we are all dhimmis, so we have no right to demand anything.
April 14th, 2008 at 01: 04.52
Godfather claims that my comment contains a doublespeak because he does not see the obvious distinction between a party rights when it is operating alone and its rights when it is part of a coalition.
April 14th, 2008 at 01: 08.14
Do the rights of a coalition before the elections change after the elections ?
April 14th, 2008 at 01: 08.21
Lee Wang Yen,
Is there a third alternative for the DAP in the situation that it faces now?
It is to my mind not possible to persuade PAS to give up its Islamic ideology. And I think t is foolhardy for DAP to leave the PR now that it has a chance to prove that it can govern well and perhaps by so proving, it can change the perception of Muslims and Malays about it and become acceptable to and even popular among them. This I think is the sensible and realistic third alternative.
Staying away from PAS now would steer DAP away from the kind of criticisms now levelled by MCA and Gerakan but would it help the non-Muslims in the longer run? One agenda of the DAP to thwart the achievement of a political environment whereby PAS can push further forward its Islamic State agenda has to be the persuasion of Malays and Muslims that there is really no necessity to have an Islamic State and the most effective way to do that is for the DAP to prove that they can govern as justly and conscionably on values similar to Islamic ones.
April 14th, 2008 at 01: 08.58
I fully agree with Godfather that it is pretty unlikely to persuade PAS to give up its agenda of Islamic State. I’m merely enumerating some of the logically possible options. I have always argued that DAP should not form an alliance with PAS.
April 14th, 2008 at 01: 09.07
Dear Godfather,
ur onli right is to put the right party in place. The problem is we have the right state not the right federal in this chaotic time.
April 14th, 2008 at 01: 09.59
If there is doublespeak now, after the elections, was there doublespeak before the elections ? Were the voters duped into making wrong choices ?
April 14th, 2008 at 01: 10.06
oops…’a party’s right’
April 14th, 2008 at 01: 15.32
If DAP leaves Pakatan now, it should also withdraw its support of the state governments in Perak and Selangor. It should also agree with BN a timetable for federal elections because the voters were disenfranchised at the last elections through this doublespeak, and the next time around, the voters will have a clearer picture of what they should vote for.
April 14th, 2008 at 01: 15.34
PR came into existence after the election. Lim Kit Siang has repeatedly claimed that DAP did not form any alliance with PAS prior to 8/3. The only form of co-operation is an agreement to avoid 3-corner fights.
April 14th, 2008 at 01: 16.47
If one looks deep into the desperate situation the MCA and Gerakan are in, one can understand why the 2 parties are so bent on playing the race card. It is a desperate act for survival, as they are at a total loss as to what they can do to stay relevant in this new political scenario. They have no clue as to what they should and must do, so they resort to the old art of stirring fear of the Islamic state. They know this is no longer acceptable to the rakyat but they lack the courage to make a clean break with the BN.
MCA, which is communal-based, requires an even greater effort and determination, from its leaders if it were to change course.
Both parties know they have to change course if they want to change their destinies. To change to some new destinies they must be prepared to break off their old association with UMNO!
To stay relevant in this new Malaysia, they should seriously study the possibility of breaking off the long, and, now, irrelevant association with UMNO. MCA and Gerakan (with invitations to the East Malaysian parties) can set up a new mutliracial party and be an alternative to the PR in the new 2-party system.
They must be prepared to think outside the box. Demise needs not happened!