Pakatan Rakyat – logical next step of March 8 political tsunami


Leaders of DAP, PKR and PAS met in Petaling Jaya today and took the logical next step of the March 8 political tsunami – proposing the establishment of a new front of the three political parties to be tentatively known as PAKATAN RAKYAT.

A joint statement issued after the meeting reads:

The leaders of KeADILan, DAP and PAS met today in furtherance of the meeting held on the 18th of March 2008.

Today’s meeting was attended by, among others, Dato’ Seri Anwar Ibrahim, YB Lim Kit Siang, YB Dato’ Seri Tuan Guru Haji Abdul Hadi Awang and YB Datin Seri Wan Azizah Wan Ismail.

In today’s meeting, we have proposed to consolidate the cooperation between the three parties under the name “PAKATAN RAKYAT”. This name has been proposed pending confirmation by the respective parties.

Pakatan Rakyat pledges to uphold the rights and interests of all Malaysians, regardless of religion or race, as enshrined in the Constitution.

With the results of the recent elections, the state governments of Kelantan, Kedah, Pulau Pinang, Perak and Selangor will be known as Pakatan Rakyat state governments. The policies of these governments will be conducted in accordance with the policies of Pakatan Rakyat.

To further mutual understanding regarding such policies, a convention of all Pakatan Rakyat elected representatives of Parliament and State Assemblies will be held on the 27th of April 2008.

We have developed and strengthened the structure of Pakatan Rakyat by creating under the Leadership Council, consisting of the leaders of the three parties, a Joint Secretariat consisting of three leaders from each of the three parties. This joint Secretariat will be tasked with building the foundation and framework of the Pakatan Rakyat for ratification by the Leadership Council.

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  1. #1 by Lee Wang Yen on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 12:04 am

    There is no such thing as absolute tolerance. Neither should we try to achieve one. If I accept pluralist democracy, I cannot accept Christian theonomy or Islamic theocracy. If I accept the rule of law, I cannot accept anarchism. But some systems are more tolerant than others. So we should opt for pluralist democracy, not because it is the absolutely tolerant system, but because it is more tolerant than any form of theocracy.

    Accepting pluralist democracy is in line with the spirit of tolerance. It calls for tolerance towards non-Muslims on the part of Muslims, towards theists on the part of atheists, towards non-Christians on the part of Christians, towards non-Hindus on the part of Hindus etc…Such tolereance is what we need in a multi-religious nation.

  2. #2 by syncbasher83 on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 12:05 am

    Mr Lee Wang Yen,

    i beg to differ, history showed that separation of religion from political power in many countries on earth until nowadays had caused many erosions of people rights to practice.
    People in power become more inhuman and curtailing other ppl rights does not occur toward the minorities but vast cases among the majorities themselves.
    Millions and billions of ppl died, displaced and deprived of their right just as a cause to maintain the ideology of separating religion from politics for the benefits of the elites.
    It is not only not perfect, its far from perfect, its the worst thing we ever had. lets think about it.

  3. #3 by Jeffrey on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 12:05 am

    I have read Md. Asham bin Ahmad’s article “Debunking of Secularism” (posted by Alistaire) in rebuttal of the points made by “Christian Theologian, Ng Kam Weng of Kairos Research Centre” and note that nowhere in Md. Asham bin Ahmad’s article has he made clear what it is meant by “Secularism” as he understood it.

    The closest Md. Asham bin Ahmad gets to is to say that “Secularism is by definition antithetical to all religions except those which have been ‘secularized’”.

    Secularism is not, by common understanding of the word, antithetical to all religions. It merely means the State is neutral and does not take side to favour any particular religion making it favoured in public domain in a way that affects everbody whether belonging or not belonging to that favoured religion.

    You can also look at it from the other side of the coin that the state favours every religion with no particular one more favoured than the rest but it secularism is certainly not “antithetical to all religions”.

    Now his further qualification “except those which have been ‘secularized’” does not throw further light on what he understood by “secularism” – it is a tautology – since the word “secularized” is derived from the word Secularism.

  4. #4 by Jeffrey on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 12:11 am

    syncbasher83, I agree that we should be tolerant and learn to compromise and work at differences (as in marriage) for greater good of the union but as always it depends on how major the differences, the more major they are, the greater the practicality of being open about them at the outset (before formalising the union) and thrashing them out in order to preserve the relationship later on after the solemnisation of the union from a major blow up. Don’t you think that’s wise?

  5. #5 by Lee Wang Yen on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 12:17 am

    Separation of religion and state does not require that political leaders have no religious beliefs.

    Given that I’m merely a layman in politics or even political philosophy, let me quote from Dr. Ng Kam Weng again. In his ‘Pluralistic Democracy or Islamic State’, he explains that the notion of secular state is not inherently anti-religious:

    ‘The act to remove religious institutions from state sovereignty should not be seen as an act to undermine religion. On the contrary, the act alleviates the status of religion since its institutions become independent public institutions capable of censuring state authorities if it should arrogate for itself the final authority in human affairs. If anything, state authorities are morally held accountable to a higher transcendent authority.

    Second, the separation between state and religious institutions is necessary to avoid possible conflicts in the event that some politicians exploit religious sentiments and incite disgruntled citizens to resort to violence. A quick look at Nigeria and the Indian sub-continent should serve as a salutary reminder against the temptation to mix religion and politics. Maintaining the precarious harmony between the various racial communities in Malaysia is already a most difficult task for any government. Confusing the boundaries between religious and political institutions will make matters worse given the conflictive nature of politics.

    Some Muslims who are sympathetic towards a progressive and tolerant form of Islam may nonetheless feel obliged to back away from talk of a secular state because of the misconception that to support for a secular state is to betray one’s religion. Indeed, now and then, some Muslim activists accuse those who argue against the establishment of the Islamic state of insulting Islam. In the process, emotional rhetoric ends up forestalling efforts to develop an objective and rational approach towards resolving differences. The status of Malaysia as a secular state in our Constitution cannot be gainsaid. But we should move away from forcing the issue of having to choose either the secular state or the Islamic state. Instead, we should focus instead on the task of building a strong pluralistic democracy in order to avoid unnecessary emotional reactions.

    The goal of strengthening pluralist democracy is a positive agenda. Acceptance of plurality is a vital prerequisite for building overlapping consensus among citizens with different ideologies and religious beliefs. In this respect, the goal of a pluralist democracy is to provide manageable platforms for the resolution of differences among citizens. That being the case, there should be a separation between religious and state institutions to ensure that national consensus is one that emerges from grass root interaction rather than one that is imposed from above.

    Fundamental to pluralist democracy is the recognition of equal rights of persons regardless of their religious affiliation and their unrestricted participation in civil society. This is based on three democratic principles. First, the libertarian principle or principle of toleration. The state simply recognizes the inalienable right of citizens to practise – or even not to practise – religion. It is therefore inappropriate for state institutions to interfere with this religious freedom.

    Second, the equalitarian principle requires impartiality of the state in not favouring a particular religion to the extent that it discriminates against other religions. This principle also demands that public offices should not be restricted exclusively to citizens professing a certain religious affiliation. This principle accepts that there can be different degrees of establishment of religion. Still, it deems the establishment of religion as, in general, an obstacle towards the maturing of democracy.

    Third, the neutrality principle says that the state should not favour citizens simply because they are religious. The state must maintain impartiality between the religious and the non-religious, or between citizens of different religions. A pluralist democracy promotes a citizenry that is capable of transcending partisan politics and of exercising rounded judgment and careful weighing of ambiguous alternatives.

    Hopefully, the above discussion will help dispel the common and unfair stereotyping of pluralist democracy – or even the secular state – as one that is inherently against religion. More importantly, the call for a pluralist democracy springs from a recognition of the fundamental concrete realities of Malaysian society. Furthermore, only a pluralist democracy is able to mobilize the resources from all citizens to ensure that our nation is able to cope with the unrelenting onslaught of globalization.’

    http://www.kairos-malaysia.org/index.cfm?menuid=6

  6. #6 by Jeffrey on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 12:19 am

    syncbasher83, for our education, can you cite some examples of countries (in history) where “separation of religion from political power” has resulted in “many erosions of people rights to practice (I presume you meant religion)”, “people in power” have “become more inhuman and curtailing other ppl rights” and “millions and billions of ppl died, displaced and deprived of their right just as a cause to maintain the ideology of separating religion from politics for the benefits of the elites”.

  7. #7 by syncbasher83 on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 12:28 am

    Jeffrey,

    most muslims cannot accept a secular state
    most nonmuslims cannot accept an Islamic state
    please tone down your personal opinion for a while and think of my question as if you do not take side…
    both PAS and DAP had garnered huge mandate from rakyat…
    to call on PAS to officially denounce its Islamic state aim alone without DAP forced to officially denounce its Secular state aim is enough?

    as far as im concerned, informed and proved. since 2004 GE, its PAS who had done alot of moderation to its Islamic identity. It is well accepted proved by GE12, mass entry into its Kelab Penyokong Pas, not to forget lately a whole MIC branch disbanded and these 110 nonmuslim Indian entered Islamic PAS Party rather than Secular State.

    Politically…
    1. Pas had strengthen its support among malay muslims at hometown and elsewhere plus convincingly well accepted by many nonmuslims by its moderate Islamic identity
    2. DAP however only enjoys its support among nonmuslim and made no significant gain in convincing malay muslims of their political struggle.

    The questions here
    1. Isnt DAP who should learn from PAS to moderate its rhetorics made on secular state and hawkish anti-Islamic state stance?
    2. Isnt it DAP who had been marred by various internal party problems before and after elections? that they should do more to strengthen their party rather than to tell others to denounce their principle?

  8. #8 by Lee Wang Yen on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 12:28 am

    We have a Christian theologian arguing for pluralist democracy and a Muslim against secular state.

    Commentators critical of Dr. Ng Kam Weng’s position have not provided any reasoned argument to show which specific argument or point in his article is biased. They simply dismiss him because of his Christian identity.

    On the other hand, Jeffrey has already pointed out Ahmad’s biased notion of ‘secularism’.

  9. #9 by Lee Wang Yen on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 12:35 am

    ‘Most Muslims cannot accept a secular state’

    Would you please support this claim.

    I cannot affirm or deny this proposition without any statistics. However, the most populous Muslim nation in the world – Indonesia – is a secular state. Of course, this does not disprove or prove the proposition.

    Perhaps what you wanted to say is that ‘most Malaysian Muslim cannot accept a secular state’.

    But you’ll need to substantiate that as well.

  10. #10 by Lee Wang Yen on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 12:41 am

    erratum ‘Malaysian Muslims

  11. #11 by syncbasher83 on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 12:50 am

    wah really want a statistic izit? why wouldnt you just see what rakyat had voiced out in GE12?

    examples, its the same pluralist democracy that:-
    1) deprived, displaced and kills palestinians for the past centuries
    2) Baath Saddam against kurds, iranians etc
    3) US against innocent afganistan, iraqi etc
    4) secular establishments in Turkey, Egypt etc against islamist
    5) france, singapore- wearing tudung is compulsory among muslims women at all time. ban at public places only seriously eroded their right to practice their religion.

    and plus Lee Wang Yen, can u please substantiate on your claim that some religion eroded others rights to practice their faith

  12. #12 by octo61 on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 12:52 am

    Uncle Kit,

    After so many years in Politics and meeting so many politicians, Do YOU SINCERELY believe PAS will give up their desire for an ISLAMIC STATE? Please give us your answer deep from your heart.. remember the Amanat Haji Hadi?

    dawsheng Says:

    April 1st, 2008 (2 days ago) at 15: 59.44
    Logically, Pakatan Rakyat should also uphold the constitution that Malaysia is a secular state with Islam as her official religion

    Do you think DSAI and Haji Hadi will dare to affirm that? If they affirmed it in black and white, I’ll be a firm believer although I voted for them… but deep in my heart I know they won’t!!

  13. #13 by HB Lim on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 12:58 am

    By IZATUN SHARI

    (STAR) KUALA LUMPUR: Non-Muslims committing khalwat (close proximity) with Muslims should also be held liable for the crime, two Islamic bodies have proposed in a resolution to be sent to the Attorney-General’s Chambers.

    The Islamic Institute of Understanding Malaysia (Ikim) and Syariah Judiciary Department Malaysia said non-Muslims found committing khalwat with Muslims should also be sentenced, perhaps in the civil courts.

    “Muslims are sentenced in Syariah courts … but we don’t have the jurisdiction to sentence non-Muslims,” Syariah Court of Appeal Judge Datuk Mohd Asri Abdullah said at a seminar on reviewing Syariah laws organised by Ikim and the department.

    “Their non-Muslim partners can probably be sentenced in the civil courts, to be fair to both parties,” he told reporters after closing the two-day seminar on Wednesday.

    He said the proposal, contained in a draft resolution from the seminar’s findings, would be forwarded to the Attorney-General’s Chambers (AG’s Chambers).

    “It is up to the AG’s Chambers or the relevant authorities to decide how to create such law,” he said, declining to say when the proposal would be made to the Government.

    The two bodies have also proposed stiffer penalties for Muslims caught in such offences as khalwat, prostitution, alcohol consumption and gambling.

    ———————–

    Adulterated Islam is more uncertain and fearful.

    The analogy of the union of a husband and wife…it is not possible to find a perfect union. Marriages work when each partner can tolerate and even accept what he or she does not agree of the other and love him or her anyway. You learn to agree to disagree. Marriages though made in heaven must be made to work by man. To keep a marriage together and strong needs hard work. I will rather have a wife who has and let me know her unwavering thoughts and outlook or way of life so that I can learn to adapt to and live confidently within a known and predictable environment than one who has ‘adulterated’ thoughts who says and does things whimsically just to please or become popular to others.

    St. Paul says it is even better for a man not to be married. DAP can stay single but if the aim is to have a Malaysian family and to hold them together, the political reality is that DAP has to be married to PAS and for the sake of the wellbeing of the Malaysian family, certain compromises and tolerance or acceptance of each other are inevitable for there is no perfect union. Otherwise, we would have a broken family with warring, not just bickering, members.

    Many, if not most, marriages are painful and would have broken apart if not for the sake and the love of the other members of the family. And bickering within a family is a good thing so long as it does not permanently break up which if translated into a national context could be disastrous for all.

    The Malaysian Reality is that Muslims and non-Muslims have to live together. We have to learn to live together but we have to be absolutely honest with each other and forever stick to fundamental and unchangeable values of truth, justice and integrity. All differences can be resolved by reference to those values which I think are identical to true Islamic values.

  14. #14 by Lee Wang Yen on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 1:13 am

    I didn’t make that claim at all. Please check.

    You haven’t provided the relevant statistics.

  15. #15 by Lee Wang Yen on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 1:22 am

    What I said was ‘IF it is true that some religions have the natural tendency…to curtail the rights of other religious believers’ in response to Alistaire’s claim about evangelical Christians: ‘naturally they have interest in restraining the influence of a religion not being their own’.

  16. #16 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 4:35 am

    “America did not go secular for nothing; it is essentially to get rid of centuries of bigotry and racism.”

    The United States “did not GO secular”. Let’s not make false and misleading statements!

    Nowhere in any of the 50 state constitutions is there stated anything like the “official religion of the federation” is Christianity. The 1787 U.S. Constitution has never been amended to include religion. There is no role given to religion in any of the original Articles I – Article VII and in the Amendments i.e. Amendment I – Amendment XXVII.

    In fact Amendment I (1791) states that “Congress shall make NO law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof….”

    The Preamble to the U.S. Constitution 1787 states “We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”

    There is no mention of God and religion anywhere to begin with, and certainly the U.S. did not GO secular to “get rid of centuries of bigotry and racism.”

  17. #17 by LadyGodiva on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 6:23 am

    I agree with Lee Wang Yen’s observation. I have only praise for Jeffrey’s well articulated comments. I find what alistaire said very interesting. In fact I don’t remember disagreeing with anybody.

  18. #18 by simon041155 on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 6:26 am

    It is a fact that the three parties under Pakatan Rakyat have diverse agendas. Any attempt to deny this obvious fact and to force the three parties into a common mould will inevitably lead to cracks within the new coalition. This, I am not only sure, but very, very sure.

    As a matter of fact, I do not see the ideological differences among the three parties as a sign of weakness. On the contrary, it could be Pakatan Rakyat’s trump card over Barisan Nasional, if handled carefully.

    Why do I say this? Because the seats that were won by PAS would have been lost, had DAP put their candidates there. The reverse is also true in that the seats won by DAP would also have been lost, had PAS put their candidates there. Thus, by have diversity and attacking Barisan Nasional on various fronts with diverse strategies and tactics, the Barisan Nasional will be hardpressed to counter effectively.

    This said, it is my humble opinion that while Pakatan Rakyat should have some common policies to hold them together, the individual state governments too must be given sufficient room to breathe. They should be allow to have some leeway within the broad guidelines set at national level. For example, let PAS practise an Islamic state if they must, but only in those states that they have won, NOT at national level.

    Common policies at national level shall be based on basic universal values that are indisputable, like respect for the Constitution (and I mean the Constitution of 1957, with amendments if necessary, but not based on the present Constitution that has been severely molested by UMNO), respect for human rights, corporate governance, progressive economic policies, etc etc. Agree on what can be agreed upon at national level, and I am very sure that Pakatan Rakyat will be the next government after the results of the 13th Malaysian national elections are announced. No. 13 may well be the downfall of UMNO’s hegemony. If Najib becomes the Prime Minister before the 13th Malaysian national election, the RAHMAN Prophesy would be fulfilled and complete, and he should see his downfall, come election time!

  19. #19 by Jeffrey on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 7:15 am

    YB Kit,

    I think I must give to PAS is that it is very focused – and it plans ahead and has a coherent road map to work towards its ultimate goal.

    A good example is the situation in Perak. The DAP was not (pre-election) prepared for the victories; you did not field a single credible Muslim/Malay candidate notwithstanding state constitution stipulates that the pre-eligibility requirement of the Mentri Besar’s position is that he must be a Malay/Muslim. Not even PKR, which although it did field Malay/Muslim candidate, did not however field anyone credible and qualified. In contrast, PAS was “prepared” all the way and thought ahead. It has Mohammad Nizar Jamaluddin who is not only qualified but could also stun the Chinese crowd by speaking in Mandarin, Hokkien, Cantonese, Tamil, then in English and Malay. He was almost MB in awaiting before the election. You know that PAS was so smart that it did not allocate resources so amply to Terrengganu because it knew in advance the BN would concentrate its fire power there because of the 5% oil royalty at stake……Instead PAS looked ahead and distributed its resources in other states like Kedah, Perak and Selangor where it pre-empted – correctly -that Opposition parties had chance to win.

    Few would doubt the committment of those supporters who work for PAS – it is not necessarily for money – it is also for the Almighty – and their commitment exceed that of BN’s workers…In addition with the infusion of professionals, PAS’s strategists are savvy, knowledgeable and sophisticated to plan ahead of its rivals.

    I give you another example of this planning ahead.

    It must have occurred to you that whereas in the past – pre election – RPK of MalaysiaToday talked of BN’s cyber troopers, and those, if any, who infiltrated this Blog were not competent to convince anybody.

    Today, post 8th March election,don’t be surprised the cyber troopers sent to various blogs including this one are from PAS’s. That is how far it works ahead. The pyschological climate of traditional DAP supporters is ripe for PAS’s political importunings.

    People are receptive to accommodate its more moderate face presented because of the imperative to rid and displace the much despised BN.

    You must surely realise that this uncanny patience and perseverance to change faces, plan and look ahead and to strategize effectively represents the greatest and insidious threat to the DAP’s agenda of pluralistic Malaysia based on the secular leanings of the 1957 Federal Constitution.

    Lee Wang Yen’s unwavering commitment to stand for secular Malaysia is admirable, and no matter that his incessant postings on the dangers of creeping fundamentalism have engendered widespread criticisms here, they play the invaluable role to serve as reminders of the principles upon which the DAP has for decades fought for, which from 8th March 2008 forward, are beginning to be forgotten, subject as they are, to the pressures of compromise due to compelling imperative grounded on political expedience than principles of DAP’s having to work with PAS to effectively displace the moribund BN that appears to be directionless and imploding in the aftershocks of 8th March political tsunami.

  20. #20 by kickbutt on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 7:42 am

    PAS’s continued pursuit of its Islamic state continues to be a thorn in DAP’s side, making its leaders look hypocritical and threatening to erode the support of its base.

  21. #21 by collosos on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 7:45 am

    http://www.webkl.net/forum21.html

    another good website for political discussion in malaysia.

  22. #22 by Godfather on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 8:37 am

    “Lee Wang Yen’s unwavering commitment to stand for secular Malaysia is admirable, and no matter that his incessant postings on the dangers of creeping fundamentalism have engendered widespread criticisms here, they play the invaluable role to serve as reminders of the principles upon which the DAP has for decades fought for……” Jeffrey

    Absolutely ! I’m still waiting for the postings from wikipaedia on the dangers of creeping Islamisation. I’m still waiting for the postings on the utterances of PAS leaders from previous years.

    And perhaps I am one of the PAS cybertroopers sent here years ago to infiltrate this blog.

  23. #23 by syncbasher83 on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 8:41 am

    Dear Beloved Uncle Lim,

    The rakyat had their voice heard in last GE12
    DAP’s secular stance and PAS’s moderate Islamic identity both played vital role in achieving such shocking result
    Why not use this diversity that we have in PR to confront BN in all fronts, they will be helpless…
    Why bother to shout on principles that will divide us?
    Both Islamist fundamentalists and Secular tyranny in both parties played their roles to garner support for the alliance
    Why not use both of them to garner more support?
    Why must put both of them in a position that they will kill each other rather than to help each other out?
    Please DONOT force PAS to officially denounce their Islamic state aim as it will lose its basic support among Islamist fundamentalists.
    It will also put a crack to the current alliance and force DAP to officially denounce its secular state stance and hawkish anti-Islamic state stance.
    55% muslims and 45% muslims, poltically if this happens, its going to be haywire…
    the rakyat’s hope and mandate given will be jeopardise…
    Pakatan Rakyat is for serving the rakyat, NOT to appease anybody neither its secular tyranny in DAP nor its Islamist fundamentalists in PAS…both should work hand in hand.
    I do believe in pluralistic society where we should be tolerant and compromising each other… ;-)

  24. #24 by limkamput on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 8:57 am

    I did not simply make false and misleading statements. I am aware of what the US constitution said. What the constitution said and how it practised, however, was very different. The constitution said all men are created equal, but they did practise slavery for more than 200 years (please don’t come back to ask me to count exactly how many years). The constitution did not mentioned about religion but didn’t they get rid of prayers in school and other public function etc more recently. Am I not right? I am no longer a headmaster anybody more. Do we need a new one?

    Talking about false and misleading statement, I think this statement is false and misleading: ISA is not evil, it is the abuse and arbitrary use of ISA that is evil.

  25. #25 by limkamput on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 8:59 am

    sorry,… The constitution did not mentioned about religion but didn’t they get rid of prayers in school and other public functions etc until more recently.

  26. #26 by limkamput on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 9:18 am

    Jeffrey,
    I think your observation on PAS’s Perak MB plan could be a little farfetched. I think you gave PAS more credit than it deserved in that regard.

    As for PAS’s uncanny patience and perseverance as well as the commitment of its supporters and cyber troopers, I am beginning to see it. Sometimes I wonder how an election result can change so much in terms of our (the opposition supporters’) world view, value and sentiments. I don’t know whether it is a false spring, so it is better to be in the cautious side.

  27. #27 by Bigjoe on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 9:21 am

    See what I mean by sooner rather than later an interfaith dialogue is necessary to head of problems? The discussion on this blog, with some clear intelligence shows signs of high passions and emotions. The only way to mitigate this problem is to have long difficult discussions, public, transparent.

    Its better to have these discussion in a public controlled manner where irrationality can be filtered out.

    Religion is such a personal thing and people easily get irrational over it.

    I once was asked about my beliefs and I said, I believe that there is a lot of things most of us have to do before turning to religion. A religious person than said she disagreed and that we would all be better off if we keep god in mind for everything we do. I did not have the heart to tell her, not only did she missed my subtle but critical point, she proved my case. Its because we would be better off if we keep god in mind in everything we do, we should not turn to religion until we really need to.

    That is the heart of the secularist argument, that we are not so lucky to deserve a perfect religion – it does not exist. At the heart of Islam is that is not true but the proof is dubious much of it just pure faith. And the power of state is too powerful to just trust faith.

    I said to the same religious person:, I think if I try to do good as much as I can without turning to god and even if I fail here and there, I bet that when we both go before god, my chances would still be better that the person who point to god for even one big evil that he/she did.

  28. #28 by lextcs on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 9:46 am

    the way for PR to work is to disband all dap, pkr and pas. why wait for DSAI when uncle Lim is here. Definately he is much cleaner than DSAI and the rest of those former UMNO putras.

  29. #29 by kickbutt on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 9:48 am

    “I think this statement is false and misleading: ISA is not evil, it is the abuse and arbitrary use of ISA that is evil.” limkamput

    My friend, we all can do without the spin!

    This is what undergrad said -

    “Suffice it to say that the “evil” lies not in the legislation as originally drafted but in its arbitrary use and abuse”

    In the case of Joshua Jamaluddin in 1989, he was freed on appeal because the right to judicial review was available then but not today. There was abuse and the Court agreed. Parliament later removed it from the statute. Do us all a favor and read what he wrote. The fact is he is a lawyer by qualification and you are not. You could at least give that to him.

  30. #30 by lextcs on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 9:52 am

    Ever been to surabaya lately? There’s a place called singapura surabaya where developments upon developments are taking place. Thus the economic activities generated has caused happiness amongst the surabayan people. So instead of dwelling on stupid old issues such as calling for resignation PM or digging out old graves, why are we not moving forward? Time passes so fast and by the time we dig up all those dirty files, its election time again. And we are back to square one. Meanwhile ‘rome’ burns while u jokers fiddles.

  31. #31 by limkamput on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 10:31 am

    When we discuss a piece legislation, shouldn’t we discuss it in its present. Why before the amendments or after amendments. How does ISA operate as it stands today?
    Does it allow judicial review, and if not, which legislation says so?

    For your information, and for whatever you may think of me, I have always read line by line if I have the time Jeffrey’s and Undergrad2′s postings. If they are lawyers, well and good. I also see lots of doctors indulging in politics and running the economy. So is there anything wrong if non lawyer get into discussion with constitution and law?

    Anyway this was what undergrad2 said in March 30th, 2008 (4 days ago) at 00: 03.54:
    “Suffice it to say that the “evil” lies not in the legislation but in its arbitrary use and abuse.” I have had discussion with him before so may be because of that he added “as originally drafted” in the later posting.

    I just want to know where the abuse and arbitrary use come from if not from this legislation. In any case, I think undergrad2 is capable of defending himself.

  32. #32 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 10:37 am

    “The [U.S..] constitution did not mentioned about religion but didn’t they get rid of prayers in school and other public function etc more recently.”

    Witnesses in court routinely take the oath by placing their hands on the Bible if they are Christians. Newly elected Presidents take their oath of office each January once every five years on the steps of the Capitol by placing their hands on the Bible. That does not make the United States less secular.

    Christmas is a legal public holiday though religious in nature; the court ruled that it has become very secular in nature. That does not make the United States less secular. The fact that you find the words “In God We Trust” on U.S. currency notes does not make the U.S. any less secular either.

    Prayers in U.S. public schools is voluntary. No one is forced to recite it. Students could even choose to leave the room while the prayer is being read. And it is non-denominational, not associated with any one religious faith. It does not make the United States any less secular.

    You are wrong. The U.S. Constitution does mention religion but only to say that “Congress shall make NO law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof….” known as the First Amendment – passed by Congress in 1791.

    The United States certainly has not recently ‘gone secular’ – or/and to “get rid of centuries of bigotry and racism” to use your own words. All this coming from someone who says that he lived with his family in the U.S. whilst studying?

  33. #33 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 10:49 am

    “I have had discussion with him before so may be because of that he added “as originally drafted” in the later posting.” limkamput

    I added that not as an afterthought but for the sake of clarity so that non-lawyers like yourself unfamiliar with its history could understand the point I was making. But apparently it does not stop spin-doctors from doing what they do best.

  34. #34 by limkamput on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 11:02 am

    i did not spin anything. if you are caught for making a wrong observation, just admit it and move on. There is no need to be defensive because many others would still think you are one of the best around here.

  35. #35 by alaneth on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 11:03 am

    I agree with Mr.Lee Wang Yen,

    I believe, we in this blog are mostly hardline opposition supporters and not truely supporters of the happiness of the Rakyat.

    A Pakatan Rakyat will mean DAP losing some of its voice over PKR/PAS, in other words, will have to eventually bow towards their policies, which are more Islamic. Now the policy is towards a ‘Just & Good Governance’, but the Islamic agenda’s flame has not died and will come back in future. DAP in Pakatan Rakyat is going to be like MCA bowing to UMNO in BN. This is what other people see in the Kopitiam Talks I’ve got from the average Chinese on the streets who have voted DAP or opposition. If DAP eventually bows to Pakatan Rakyat & PAS/PKR, the Chinese will swing back to MCA. They vote for comfortable way of life, doing business & happiness living in Malaysia, they are (90%) not staunch supporters of the opposition and will swing anytime.

    Remember, we here in this blog are staunch opposition supporters as opposed to the masses (90%) who only wants freedom to practice their way of life, comfort & business-freindly environment. If Pakatan Rakyat cannot do that (by being too Islamic), they may swing back to MCA.

  36. #36 by limkamput on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 11:04 am

    if you are talking about spinning, i must say that your comments of my posting on US government is spinning. It is the headmaster in you that is showing, not me.

  37. #37 by Jong on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 11:21 am

    “All this coming from someone who says that he lived with his family in the U.S. whilst studying?”

    Undergrad2, I think that’s an unfair jab, unnecessary. Not every ordinary resident or citizen for that matter takes upon himself/herself to be as detailed into the law of the country as you, a lawyer perhaps.

  38. #38 by Godfather on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 11:56 am

    Sigh…I can see that the name-calling has started.

    Fact: The leaders of the DAP/PKR/PAS have agreed on a coalition to be called Pakatan Rakyat. There is a minority who still hold the view that DAP should not be part of the coalition, as PAS has not publicly renounced its Islamic state ambitions. We can accept this minority view, but the majority is ecstatic about the coalition’s formation. Maybe the majority is of the view that any alternative to the BN thieves has to be a better alternative, but only time can prove the majority or the minority right.

    Fact: BN has stated that Malaysia is an Islamic state with minority protections. This was enunciated way before the March elections. So if the Pakatan Rakyat were to be dissolved due to “irreconciliable” differences, the BN will return to govern the various states, and we still have to live the Islamic state policy of the BN.

    Ask yourself: Would you rather give Pakatan a chance, and stop all these nonsense about PAS having to denounce its Islamic state ambitions, or would you rather live with UMNO that won’t denounce the concept of Bolehland as an Islamic state and yet continue to steal like there is no tomorrow ?

  39. #39 by lakilompat on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 12:26 pm

    What PAS have is good religion. Other race feared islamic state e.g. “Hudud Law” Stoning, Khalwat, Beheading, Gender segregation, all females covering themselves, banning of alcohol & nightlife, gay’s & lesbian right. This is not the freedom most Malaysian seek. Is it wrong to have a relationship, yes relationship did caused many social problems, but if you never have a relationship you will never know who is the right partner you want for life. In Islam you can marry more than one ladies, you can easily divorce your partner “talak” by sms. This is not fair to Malaysia females.

    For DAP, they are more like socialist, they will tackle problems thru fairer distribution of income, savings & re channel funds to better improve the state.

  40. #40 by lakilompat on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 12:38 pm

    A successful countries has its price to pay.

    Singapore – FINE city (this is where income can be generated) majority of the ppl. are cabbies. Major stores are operated by Multi national companies (Great influx of foreigner funds). Every flats or condos have a community hall where ppl can play sports and the childrens can interacts. The transportation is great, can travel easily from village to town. There are many new goods and choices available we are still way behind their trend.

    Can we change Kelantan? 50 yrs already passed. The al Quran can only be used for religion to be respected but it won’t help much to develop or create a wealthy nation. To create a wealthy nation there is sacrificed like Japan, most of the young ladies are forced into vice activity due to material pursued & high living cost. The man are very pressure because they must work hard and that doesn’t mean they can secure their own house.

  41. #41 by allasstra on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 12:54 pm

    for your consideration :

    imho; the best way to please every1 and let every1 live the way they wanted is to have SAR[semi-automous region].

    the region up-north where support for PAS is strong can be handed over to PAS,and let those ppl of these states to decide upon themself either to follow the implementation of hudud law or not. therefor they can at the same time be ultra-orthodox muslims,and still being a part of malaysia on the conditions that they:
    [a] pledge thier loyalty to thier respective sultan.
    [b] pledge thier loyalty to the goverment of malaysia,and remain as a part of malaysia.
    [c] does discriminate against the minority,be they ppl of other races or the much more liberal/open-minded muslims.

    Penang/kl/ipoh/jb as it is a predominantly chinese occupied island/land,be given to the chinese/chinese oriented political party,either a refurbished MCA,or nMCA or maybe a new party,as imho the current MCA is FUBAR in the eyes of the voters*. And let them run without “THE POLICY” or any other similar policies,provided that they shall :
    [a] remains loyal to the goverment of Malaysia.
    [b] under no circumstances shall the minority be discriminated,be they ppl of other races OR chinese imigrant from other states. contary to popular belive,majority of the poor in these area is chinese,among other races.
    [c] contribute a certain percentage of it’s total gdp to the other less developed states for development purpose.
    *—-u all said it yourself

    areas/constituent with high indian population or all the area within 100km radiaus from Batu Caves should be put under an Indian oriented political party,and administered by indians.as indians only made up only a total of ~9-10% of malaysian population[based on CIA factbook estimate of 7.1% at '04] and due to this fact it is impossible to setup a Indian S.A.R,there for indian community should be given preference in education policy and .gov employment naton wide, due to thier tiny population,they are unlikely to became a major threat towards the other community. As long as they remains loyal to Malaysia and deal fairly with the minority,I wouldnt mind living under thier administration.

    the east malaysia,Sabah and Sarawak should be left as it is now,a semi-semi autonomous region[quarter-autonomous] :-) Altough the Taib administration has long had a reputation of being corrupt*,the fact that he is still in charge is a testament that peoples of sarawak had choose to live in inaction and submission,oblivious/apathic to thier conditions. having said that,the central .gov should really consider taking less money from sarawak,or at lease felt a little shameful for doing so. note:sarawak contributed ~3billion in tax to central .gov,how much it’s getting back ?
    *——-according to public coffee shop opinion polls.

    the remaining of the bulk of malaysia should be given to malays thru a malay oriented party,and following more or less the current style of administration,without the current mismanagement* that is, applying a moderate apporach in terms of religion and focusing more on accumulation worldly whealth,plus NEP in full swing while adhearing the principal that minorities of anykind will not be discriminated.
    *—according to un-official and non-state controled news agencies. :-)

    the central .gov would then be in charge of matters concerning defence,internatonal affairs,memajukan bola sepak negara*,and funds distribution according to a set of formulas agreed upon by ruling parties of each SARs respectively,and subject to reviews anually.
    *—on a best effort basis

    there u go,with several regions where major races runs the show respectively,and safe havens for all in case they happen to be unhappy with the place that they lives in,every1 should be happy right ? yeah!

    p/s:i am uneducated,and i reserve my right to be wrong where ever it may apply,and as a citizen of a democratic* country,it is my birthright to hav the wrong opinion and held on to it,that’s my free will,and your right to disagree and provide contary opinions.
    *—as seen on tv

    =========================
    for those of u who argue bout the U.S,

    funny facts: the phrase “in God we trust” was written on u.s coins started during the cold war,as to provide a contrast to the “unGodly” u.s.s.r

    funny facts: despite claiming “separation of state and church”,and in nowhere in the u.s constitution says it is a christian nation,different state have different policies,some of them liberal while some of them were more religious,that’s why there are devided in issues such as gay-marriages,abortions,and human d.n.a cloning. In some states it is illegal,while some state argue that it’s ok to do so….

    funny facts: the only u.s constitution that i want to have is the second ammendment :-)

  42. #42 by allasstra on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 12:59 pm

    quote:

    “lakilompat Says:
    Today at 12: 38.11 (16 minutes ago)

    The transportation is great, can travel easily from village to town.”

    —liars ! there aint no village in sin’ city,u waesel ! ;-)

  43. #43 by Jong on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 1:06 pm

    I suggest we look into more important issues at hand. Are our memories that short? Please don’t get ourselves distracted. What about these?

    1. Remember the C4 explosive on Altantuya? Does
    she deserve to die? ..this way? A high profile
    murder involving VVIP(without a doubt!) and now
    what’s dragging their feet, and who is being
    protected? We demand the culprit be exposed,
    whether he is the sultan or the deputy sultan!
    The police must be held responsible for the
    safety of all documentary evidence, that they
    have not gone “missing” a common convenient
    excuse in Bolehland.

    2. The Judiciary rot, we were all not up against it? It
    has to stop NOW!

    3. Hindraf 5 hauled in and slapped with ISA? What
    security threat do they pose? Any C4 explosives
    found on any of them?

    4. Those petrol monies, where have they gone? We
    want record of where the nation’s monies went to
    the past 10-15 years, a fair demand.

    5. Haidar Commission on Lingamtape, where is it
    heading? What’s next – man in the video talks
    sounds like him and looks him.
    What’s keeping them and who are they afraid
    to expose, and protecting?

    6. Land scams, let’s go for the corrupt conspirators
    of BN. Zakaria Deros may be dead but there are
    many more around in all states from MCA, MIC,
    UMNO and Gerakan.

    We have voted in and put 5 new Pakatan Rakyat State Govts to office and they have alot of work to do, not to forget those teething problems, being first timer.

    Let’s be more understanding, stop finger pointing before they are even able to start. We should instead be throwing our 100% support behind this PR coalition, to help them perform to the best of their ability and deliver.

  44. #44 by limkamput on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 1:52 pm

    I think nobody is talking nonsense here. And not everybody is saying that PAS must denounce Islamic state now failing which PR would be dissolved. To say that would suggest that the person is not really reading properly what others are saying. What many are saying is that we have to be circumspect, not docilely agreeing to everything or lulled into complacency that everything is going to be happy and benign from now on. I don’t see all these as being nonsense.

    Jong,
    Thank you for stand up for me. I am tired of being accused of this and that anymore. When I respond, usually it will be harder than what they gave me. So, sometimes I do it, sometimes I let it goes. I got the inkling that even the moderator is after me. May be I will just behave for a time being because I am addicted to this blog for now.

  45. #45 by wag-the-dog on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 2:07 pm

    Combating “Fitna”
    By Ibrahim el Houdaiby

    Last week, Dutch MP Geert Wilders released his movie Fitna, attacking Muslims and the Quran, amidst wide international worries that airing the movie would only lead to further cross-cultural tensions, and perhaps violence. Influential Muslim figures, including some Salafi Saudi scholars, had threatened to boycott the Netherlands while official figures in Iran threatened to review diplomatic relations with the country if the film was aired. Once again, the overall cross-cultural scene seemed less than promising.

    Visit http://www.wagthedog-malaysia.blogspot.com for details.

  46. #46 by lakilompat on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 2:07 pm

    To allasstra, u r a pretty dull person. Village to town mean those who lived in residential village travelling to town (city or nearby commercial area).

    In Singapore vice activity is controlled and legal, in Geylang. This will add revenues to the govt. they called it “Sin Tax” where in Malaysia, it is forbidden but everday there will be news on vice raids. Govt. did not legalize it, but it is booming in Kuala Lumpur as it is supported by powerful and influential ppl within the BN govt. no matter how many raids the police have taken action it is only for shows that police is doing something. When tomorrow come, it is business as usual.

    It is just a waste of the police energy, because the real syndicate head is enjoying his life overseas while news of his den is been closed deliberately for show.

    Malaysian Law is used to protect the rich & powerful and punish the poor and weak. A hawker struggling his or her life to earn a living, but ended up been harassed and threaten by Municipal officer, the hawker have to pay undertable money to them so that action will not be taken and they can proceed to earn a living. A good Malaysian Law? A child was beaten to death, with all the photos taken by one of the security guard at a Datuk house, nothing happen to the Datuk? If you’ve any friends in the police forces, how many will tell you if Datuk or minister relatives were caught to possessed drugs, they have to let go?

  47. #47 by NewDAP on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 2:08 pm

    Two parties with two very different ideology and belief tried to temporary compromise and tolerate each other in order to form Pakatan Rakyat.
    Pakatan Rakyat will not last long and will not survive the 13th GE and will be defeated by BN easily. Thereafter, Pakatan Rakyat will have the same fate as Barisan Rakyat.

    Most Chinese or Non-Muslim ladies or women never vote for PAS and will continue to reject PAS.
    Most of the Non-Muslim ladies and women are having phobia of PAS’s ideology that championing male. Most of the Non-Muslim ladies and women nightmare is they no longer be allowed to wear sexily under PAS government and will be discriminated.
    By forming a Pakatan together with PAS, BN or MCA will make them believe that DAP is accepting PAS’s ideology.

    Therefore these Chinese or Non-Muslim ladies or women will vote against DAP or Pakatan Rakyat in the 13th GE.

  48. #48 by lakilompat on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 2:43 pm

    Again the al Quran has been misused and drafted to law that male can have more than 1 wife.

    During ancient time, many muslim died from war & hunger as a result there are many widows and orphan that need to be taken care, the Sultan is sad, and summoned his scholars to find a solution, hence in order to produce more responsible citizen and soldiers a man can take in 2nd wife. Genghis Khan or Emperor have more than 1 wife called concubines. Today, the chinese or indian don’t have these legally but are you sure they don’t have mistress? the only difference these mistress has no status in society as they are not legal wife. Again, many UMNO putras has abused this law, look at today news, a Malay just simply sms “talak” to divorce his two wife on April fool. The al Quran has solved the ancient problems but it has now been abused. It is not the al Quran fault, it is the people who misuse and misinterpret the true meaning. They’ve become ignorance and failed to taste the fruit of each seeds.

  49. #49 by Godfather on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 2:44 pm

    “No one is trying to force PAS to abandon its Islamic agenda. There is no need to press PAS or/and PR to make that declaration if DAP does not form an alliance with PAS.” Lee Wang Yen

    Lee has consistently said that DAP should not get into any coalition with PAS until and unless PAS abandons its Islamic agenda. Now that the Pakatan has been formed (although it is still subject to each party’s central committee approval) without pre-conditions, the fact is that if the DAP were to withdraw from the coalition, Pakatan Rakyat would simply become “kaput”. This may not be the original intention of people like Lee, Dawsheng and Limkamput, but this will be ultimate end-result.

  50. #50 by allasstra on Thursday, 3 April 2008 - 2:50 pm

    quote :

    lakilompat Says “To allasstra, u r a pretty dull person. Village to town mean those who lived in residential village travelling to town (city or nearby commercial area).”
    —-technically,thare’s no village in singapore. singaporean dont define themself as living in a “village”. and from dick-tionary,the definition of village is :
    [1] A community of people smaller than a town
    [2] A settlement smaller than a town

    when i was there,everywhere is defined as township

    “In Singapore vice activity is controlled and legal, in Geylang.”

    are u sure of that ? do u mean prostitution alone,or all types of vice activity including but not limited to :
    [a] drug runing/pushing
    [b] along-ing
    [c] illegal gambling
    [d] blah blah blah-ing

    =========================

    and to wag-the-dog,please stop spaming ur stupid blogsite. if there’s no visitor,it’s simply b’cos it’s no good. period………………….

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