Letters
by Dr. LMK
I am an eye specialist (ophthalmologist) currently practising in UK, I
cannot come home because of my specialist degree.
“FRCS(Glasgow) in Ophthalmology” (hereinafter refer as FRCS) is a
specialist degree recognised by the whole world, the eye specialist
must go through a proper training and exam in order to get this
degree. Many eye specialists in many are holding this degree
including our famous eye specialists in Tun Hussain Onn Eye Hospital.
FRCS was confered by 4 boards, ie, Edinburgh, London, Ireland and
Glasgow. In 1999, UK has decided to change its training service due
to the European Union. FRCS exam was be replaced by MRCS exam. For
your information, MRCS is not a recognised degree in Malaysia.
However, Glasgow board is STILL offering this exam for this degree
until NOW.
In 2003, this group of bureaucrats in the specialty board of
ophthalmology of Academy of Medicine (the specialist board for KKM)
has declared that FRCS (Glasgow) is no longer recognised as a
postgraduate degree, holder of this degree will not be listed in the
specialist register. They forwarded their decision to Cawangan
Pembangunan Profesyen, Bahagian Perkimbangan Perubatan, KKM. Datuk
Dr. Abdul Gani (the deputy DG at that time) issued this circular – Bil
(104) dlm KKM 87 (P13.221) Bhg 3 dated 23/3/05.
There was a bit of “noise”, they have decided that those graduated
before 2003 will be recognised, those graduated between 2004 to 2005
will be case by case basis, those graduated after 2005 will not be
entertained. Recently they even amended it further that those
graduated after 1993 will not be recognised. (please look under
“Ophthalmology” section -
http://www.nsr.org.my/azRecognisedListDetail.jsp
For your information, KKM has been employing a lot of expatriates with
unrecognised master degree practising in their hospitals as a
specialist. They are all given 6 months period of gazettement (a
period of monitoring for KKM doctor) to be a specialist. This is for
the fulfillment of the Perintah-perintah Am dan Arahan Pentadbiran –
Bab F, Pelbagai V, sesi 27 (a), (b)(i) and (b)(ii).
Some of our friends did ask them for the reason. These bureaucrats
said that the local Master program has recently (2003?) changed to 4
years instead of previously 3, so FRCS is no longer recognised.
Remember, these bureaucrats spent their 3 years master program last
time. If they de-recognise this degree, they should de-recognise
themselves.
When Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Glasgow knew about
this comment, they changed their curriculum immediately(in 2004) to
4.5 years instead of previously 3. RCSGlasgow has, in fact, amended
their system to suit their need!!! What more excuse they have?
Why an unrecognised degree could be gazetted and FRCS is not able to?
Why they want to de-recognise a UK degree that they also have? I
think Malaysian government is treating the expatriate better than
their own citizen.
Uncle Lim, our country is very short of doctors, eye specialist is
very deprived, why they still want to impose such regulation? Those
bureaucrats are holding this degree !!!
Why they want to de-recognise this degree? Do we have enough of eye
specialist in Malaysia? They have gone through the same training
format as us, why they de-recognise this training?
Many of us (Malays, Chinese and Indians) are holding this degree in UK
dying to come home, some of our friends in Malaysia with this degree
are not able to register as a specialist. MCA and UMNO refused to
entertain them, KKM is ignoring them, my friends in UK and Malaysia
are very helpless at the moment.
#1 by cto on Friday, 21 March 2008 - 1:38 pm
It is good that you have raised the issue and brought it to the forefront. However, taking on the establishment is likely a Sisyphean task.
So if I were you, I would not hold my breath for anything positive to happen anytime soon. This sort of thing has been going on for years and will likely go on for a while. It is rather tragic but when your home country does not recognize or appreciate your ability/talent/qualification as much as than other more developed nations, I don’t think you have a choice but to stay away.
If more people highlight such issues, perhaps some witch doctor (with all due respect to the real doctors here) might just be able to remove this curse one day. In the meantime don’t sweat it.
#2 by budak on Friday, 21 March 2008 - 1:49 pm
why bother by stupid M’sian medical org… they always look oversea qualification are hindrance of M’sian trained doc…
please look broader picture, just let them self qualify… soon the world would reject all M’sia medical qualification… that would be another lesson that they should learn….
just drop-in Singapore or Australia, here you’re fully qualify… who knows one day you’ve chance to “potong” Pee-M mata leh…! :-)
#3 by catharsis on Friday, 21 March 2008 - 4:08 pm
MRCS is not a recognised degree in Malaysia.
However, Glasgow board is STILL offering this exam for this degree
until NOW………………………………………………………………
See what would happen when some moron in the Ministry with a bought degree making decisions on accreditation- ONE WORD- FIASCO
#4 by shin.geoffrey on Friday, 21 March 2008 - 5:34 pm
I think most of the people in this blog dreaming that working abroad is far better than in Malaysia.
Why we want to come back? Two reasons:
1. Australian will not issue their medical license AND working permit if you are not an Australian citizen.
2. Singapore will ONLY issue you a senior MO job, you will be holding about RM10,000 per month and you work from morning to midnight. Working as a GP in Malaysia from 9 to 5 can do better than that. You can only get into the consultant post if you are a singaporean citizen.
3. We are not the migrant of Malaysia, we are the citizen of Malaysia. Malaysia is part of our home, we must not surrender and fight.
Working and migration abroad is not funny. Some of the people are not married and have no kids, they do not know what is the responsibility as a head of the family.
After you are married with kids, you only ask for one thing – stablity for yourself and your beloveds.
Stop discouraging our specialist to come home. The blog site ,apart from letting you expressing your disatisfaction, is to help Uncle Lim to come out with a solution to fight against the darkness.
#5 by Dr Hanna on Friday, 21 March 2008 - 5:37 pm
I agree with Geoffrey, stop discouraging our people to come home. We need Uncle Lim to address this problem to the cabinet to settle this problem. Spreading hatrage cannot resolve the situation. Please, come together and work.
#6 by Sorry no name on Friday, 21 March 2008 - 5:47 pm
Why everyone dream of Singapore?
I have worked there as a senior MO for a few years. Absolutely madness! You work more than 18 hours a day and you only get RM10,000 per month.
If you are a foreigner, you will only work as a senior MO. Remember, things in Singapore is very very expensive! For a doctor to be ready for oncall, we cannot stay in JB, we must stay in Singapore.
I hardly had any saving at that time. Singaporeans are looking down at us like a dirt !!
Please, I would be grateful if most of the people keep their eyes wide.
What Geoffrey said is correct, we are not the migrant of Malaysia, we are the citizen of Malaysia. Our grandparents fought for this country independent.
We need to be slightly constructive now to get measure to YB Lim Kit Siang to handle this crisis. Inflammatory and discouraging advice should not be the priority.
Dr. No Name
#7 by williamtan11 on Friday, 21 March 2008 - 6:00 pm
Australia is full of job for foreign doctor?
Well … few years ago while I was still working as a doctor in UK, so many Aussies came to UK to search for medical job ..
Apparently the trainning post for specialist is not sufficient to accommodate the vast number of their own Aussie graduates …
I cannot comment on other fields, but, for medical, Australia has shut its door to the foreigner to save their own people …
Singapore … well … a lot of comments already from others ..
#8 by along_along on Friday, 21 March 2008 - 6:14 pm
Thank you to Dr LKM for starting this post, many of us in the UK are really dying to make this issue clear, to come home and serve our family, friends, community and country…
Most of the posts are very sensible, even from non-medics…but i personally do not understand WHY SINGAPORE and AUS ARE INVOLVED HERE?????
In case some of you do not realise, this is YB LIM KIT SIANG’s blog, a MALAYSIAN who was jailed for MALAYSA democracy, a MALAYSIAN who speak loudly for democracy in the parliament, a MALAYSIAN spend all his life want to make his country strong, safe, healthy in ALL aspects.
I am very sure Dr LKM and many of us in other parts of the world who equipped ourself with a pair of healing hands are not thinking to go SING-JIA-POH, for money? for safety? for democracy? (hahahahah…they don’t have), for better life? Why don’t you go and ask how much you need to pay to get your cataract remove in singapore, before you post something? FOOLS…..
What we want is to STAND TOGETHER with our people, just as the same as YB LIM…
So stop talking about other countries in this blog and save your shallow thoughts for yourself and singaporeans!
We sincerely hope this issue can be dealt with as soon as possible with the help of Kit Siang, reading some tragedic news about our healthcare system really break our hearts….
The people are innocent, is the lawmaker that makes them suffer….We are ready to go home and make a change….
along-along from Edinburgh
#9 by sheriff singh on Friday, 21 March 2008 - 6:27 pm
Say, have you tried to be an EAR specialist? We have people with big ears here but are very hard on hearing. There is a niche market here.
Alternatively, the 5 Opposition states can recognise the UK specialist degree and you can come home and practice in half the country.
Also ask Liow Tiong Lai, the new Health Minister, whats he gonna do about it?
Also ask the LAN fellows about their thoughts on this. Maybe they have some inputs and outputs if not kaputs.
#10 by danielchowck on Friday, 21 March 2008 - 6:49 pm
Dr. LMK, have you leave your full name, address and contact number to the DAP? Let them bring it to Liow Tiong Lai and see whether MCA can do anything to prove that they are not mere UMNO’s puppet.
#11 by jetaime.f on Friday, 21 March 2008 - 7:43 pm
Australia is in need of doctors.
#12 by dimplerid22 on Friday, 21 March 2008 - 7:54 pm
As most of you know, the Academy of Medicine recently started compiling a list of medical specialists from various disciplines of medicine via the National Specialist Register (NSR).
This register has been in the pipeworks for many years so that a formal list of specialists may be available,not unlike the register of medical practitioners available from the MMC.
Unlike most,if not all the other specialities in medicine, the board members involved in ophthalmology have decided that it would be necessary for those who passed after 2003 (need to verify this info as weblink is down today) need to sit for an “exit” exam involving vivas, supervisor’s reports and a detailed examination of their procedural logbook.The first exam,I believe, is slated for mid 2008.
The reason given was that this would ensure that the standard of ophthalmology practice in Malaysia is high.The info on the website seems to somehow downplay the standards of KKM in gazzetting specialists.Those involved in this exercise are deemed to be of adequate quality worthy of the NSR only after passing the “exit” exam!
Gazzetted specialists in the other field of medicine only have to fill in a registration form and submit it together with the necessary payment and their name will appear on the specialist register. Gazzettement by the KKM is considered a stamp of approval and the “clinical” specialist is now a full -fledged specialist worthy of admission to the NSR.
In ophthalmology, the exit exam is being enforced RETROSPECTIVELY and the interesting thing is that there is a so called “grandfather” clause that exempts ophthalmologist who passed before the year 2003.
This casts a serious flaw in the motives and sincerity of the academy in enforcing it’s so called high standards.
The legal aspects of enforcing retrospective rulings need to be clarified and possibly challenged as this ruling will affect the status of younger gazzetted ophthalmologist in the KKM, universities and those whom are already in private practice.
I have heard that there have been many complaint letters submitted to the academy but I believe that we as gazetted ophthalmologists need to make a collective stand on the matter.
I propose that those involved in this retrospective ruling boycot the exams to send a strong message to the academy.The implementation of this ruling is unfair to say the least.
The insinuation is that these gazzetted ophthalmologists are good enough for the KKM and universities to treat patients and teach masters students but need to prove themselves to a select panel who would exempt their contemporaries (and themselves of course)…..all in the name of ensuring quality in the field of ophthalmology.
It is a matter of principle that we do not allow such unfair rulings to go unchallenged. If there is one thing we’ve learnt from the recent elections is that Malaysians are starting to fight against unjust practices.It is possible to challenge this unfair ruling if we are united.
Questions that need to be answered include:-
1)Why come up with a retrospective ruling to penalise younger gazzetted ophthalmologists?
If they are so sincere about protecting patients from errant ophthalmologists shouldn’t all ophthalmologists be subjected to the exams?Do all doctors keep up with their field of specialty? Are they safer doctors because they are contemporaries of the examiners?
2)If specialists gazzetted by KKM in other specialities are good enough for the academy to be registered in the NSR, can’t the academy and the KKM act together in certifying a specialist? If an exit exam is to be introduced, this should be done PROSPECTIVELY!
3)What are the impications if the gazzetted ophthalmologist should fail one of these vivas? Is he/she put on probation and not allowed to practice?
These are indeed worrying developments.
#13 by jetaime.f on Friday, 21 March 2008 - 7:55 pm
I don’t have a lot of knowledge about the medical industry but merely sharing the news that my best pal’s friends have migrated and managed to get jobs in Australian hospitals. They are doctors from India. My other best friend is a nurse another hospital in Australia, she tells me there’s critical shortage of doctors. I was also told by my own cousin who is specializing over there. Perhaps, the area one specialises in matters too.
#14 by sanjayr on Friday, 21 March 2008 - 9:20 pm
Just go on to singapore n practise there….. the government must learn a lesson… Just see all the specialist locally, the chinese and indian FRCS n FRCP r becomming lesser by the day…. one of this days we will all be patients treated by only 1 race….
#15 by lbl on Saturday, 22 March 2008 - 12:30 am
BlueBear, I know he is a private student. I meant government scholars who are still being sent to the UK. Say, if we are getting expatriates from Myanmar, then the government should send our students to study in Myanmar.
#16 by catharsis on Saturday, 22 March 2008 - 7:20 am
shin.geoffrey Says:
Yesterday at 17: 34.06
I think most of the people in this blog dreaming that working abroad is far better than in Malaysia.
……………………1. Australian will not issue their medical license AND working permit if you are not an Australian citizen…………..
My friend your facts are wrong. I wonder which source you use for your research…………………………………………………….
ONLY GOVERNMENT POSITIONS (POLICE, ARMY, NAVY, DIMA, FOREIGN MISSION ETC.) REQUIRE YOU TO BE A CITIZEN
#17 by catharsis on Saturday, 22 March 2008 - 8:50 am
williamtan11 Says:
Yesterday at 18: 00.50
Australia is full of job for foreign doctor?
………………I cannot comment on other fields, but, for medical, Australia has shut its door to the foreigner to save their own people ………………………………………………………………………
again your facts ARE OBSOLETE in view of present day environment…doctors are very much needed in Australia but foreign trained doctors to need to go for reassesment to validate their overseas certification before they can practise in OZ
#18 by williamtan11 on Saturday, 22 March 2008 - 9:29 am
Dear Catharsis,
I suggest you to check with the Australian medical council for further informations. Before you are allowed to be assessed, you need to clear the Aussie medical council first.
What is the criteria for a non-Australian doctor to sit for the registration exam?
After you passed all your medical exam (my friend tooks 5 years after he got his PR as a investor, not a doctor), then you need to seek a specialist registrar job.
My Aussie friends did not get the specialist registrar job, they are now working in UK.
As jetaime.f said, there are lots of South Asian doctors practicing in Australia. In UK, similar situation.
Why? These people got in during the 90′s when the migration policy was still loose. In 2000, under the pressure of European Union, UK became very hard on non-EU. Austrialia also started to de-recognised foreign doctors.
For those people want to migrate to Australia, let me give you a back door.
Austrialia may not welcome doctors but New Zealand does. A lot of my friends migrated to New Zealand, they got NZ PR. A a NZ PR, you could exercise your right to be Austrialian PR.
When you obtain your Australian PR, your life will be easier.
That is all for those people thinking overseas is more rossy.
#19 by shin.geoffrey on Saturday, 22 March 2008 - 9:42 am
Thank you for dimplerid22′s comment, I would like to suggest further opinion.
1. “Exit exam” … oh … please. Every country has its own system, there has not been any exit exam in Malaysia, we cannot simply follow other country’s system. If they want to follow, please follow 100%, please do not follow “half-cooked” way.
2. In USA and europe (excluding UK), there is no such thing as exit exam. When their trainnee have completed their 4 years basic trainning, they will sit for the board exam. If you pass, you are a specialist.
3. Malaysia offers a 4 years master program, similar to USA and europe. If you pass the master program, you are a specialist.
4. About this exit exam: after you have passed your specialist degree, you need to pass another “exit” exam to be a specialist. So, may I ask, what is the purpose of passing a local master or a FRCS, MRCP and MRCOG degree then?
5. This “exit” exam is tailored for those group of hypocrite and bureocrate to control the number of private and government specialist in Malaysia. Or … shall I say … for those “selected” one and those licking their ass one … probably chinese specialist will be marginalised …
6. Please be aware that there are private doctors in the specialist board. If there are more and more private doctors in the market, can they find a better income?
7. Our country is so short of doctors and specialists, implementing specialist registration is too premature. It will not yield a good quality of doctors but will 100% satisfy a group of “GOD” playing people.
8. What give those specialist board member the privilege to be exempted from “exit” exam? by the way, who selected them? a circle of friends? They have no right to implement anythings.
STOP PLAYING GOD.
#20 by jetaime.f on Saturday, 22 March 2008 - 9:53 am
williamtan11, hi there,
I’m just curious of the whole process of getting a job in the medical field in Oz. The Indian friends I’ve mentioned, they got a job in Oz two years ago and then applied for their PR. I think perhaps they must have obtained work permit. And they graduated from medical schools in India. Perhaps it is the area within the medical specialize in that matters. Otherwise, sorry to say this but I’m curiouswhy doctors who have been practising in the UK are not able to get a job in Oz.
#21 by jetaime.f on Saturday, 22 March 2008 - 10:02 am
In fact, there are complaints that the Indian doctors from India are not as skilled or capable. Again this is hearsay from people who works in the medical field in OZ. Bear in mind that SEA doctors and other professionals in other field are exposed to a different market, environment, working procedures compare to Australians. As to in what sense or perspective they are not as skilled or capable as their counterparts who trained in Australia, that’s a question to ask.
#22 by jetaime.f on Saturday, 22 March 2008 - 10:03 am
correction: perhaps it is the areas within the medical field that matters. Sorry.
#23 by jetaime.f on Saturday, 22 March 2008 - 10:11 am
My view is, a country/ government should look after its own people without discrimination. At least, the basics of life should be taken care of. The plight of these eye specialists is part of the basics of life and I can’t say for everyone but I believe there are so many other professionals in other fields who left for a better life overseas, because they are denied the opportunities on “discrimination” grounds. I think it is no different to say Indonesian maids and Filipino maids working in Malaysia. It is only the profession or job held and one’s educational background.
#24 by jetaime.f on Saturday, 22 March 2008 - 10:12 am
and one’s educational background that differs…..sorry guys, fat fingers syndrome…. :)
#25 by Dr Hanna on Saturday, 22 March 2008 - 10:29 am
Hm hm hm … thank you for dimplerid22′s idea ..
From dimplerid22′s letter, I reckon dimplerid22 must be a FRCS holder, I guess he/she must have qualified between year 1993 to year 2004. You may have been gazetted and yet waiting for your NSR .. am I right? haha ..
My friend, our picture should be a bit broader lah. We need to save the past, the present and the future FRCS, not for a particular group lah … we also need to save those graduated after 2005, they are completed de-recognsed, they are not given a chance to be “gazetted”. We must save them as well, please, let us work together hand in hand lah .. for your info, I have not involved with your specialty, but I am involved in administrative affair lah ..
About this “gazzettment”, how it comes about? I think a lot of non-medical people must know the following:
1. Since Dr. LMK has mentioned about the Perintah-perintah Am dan Arahan Pentadbiran – Bab F, Pelbagai V, sesi 27 (a), (b)(i) and (b)(ii), what are them? (sorry for those do not understand BM!!)
“Perintah-perintah Am dan Arahan Pentadbiran, Bab F, Pelbagai 5:
27. (a) Perlantikan Sebagai Pegawai Pakar (46)
Ketua Pengarah Kesihatan, dengan nasihat tiga orang pegawai pakar yang dipilih olehnya atau oleh sebuah jawatankuasa khas perubatan yang ditubuhkan oleh kerajaan untuk tujuan yang sama boleh melantik pegawai-pegawai perubatan sebagai pegawai pakar jika mereka memenuhi syarat-syarat di (b). Semua perlantikan yang sedemikian hendaklah disiarkan di dalan Warta Kerajaan.
(b) Seseorang pegawai perubatan tidak akan dilantik sebagai pegawai pakar melainkan apabila jawatan yang dipegangnya itu memerlukan perjalanan tugas-tugas pakar dan
(i) dia mempunyai kelayakan-kelayakan ilmiah atau ikhtisas yang diakui serta pengalaman-pengalaman yang memuaskan hati ketua pengarah kesihatan; atau:
(ii) dia telah menjalankan tugas-tugas pakar yang memuaskan bagi satu jangkamasa yang panjang”
2. Perintah-perintah Am (general order) above is only applied to government servant, private is NOT applied.
3. How this gazettement comes about? To fulfil the general order as above, the specialist shall be supervised for a period of time. Upon satisfaction, his name will be submitted to the KKM as a specialist. This process is named as “gazzettement” by the KKM hospital people.
4. “Gazzettement” is only applied for those working in the hospitals or clinic of the ministry of health (KKM). Universities have their own mechanism to fulfil the general order as above. So, many people claiming that universities have NO gazzettement, but, they did not mention universities have their own way.
5. “Gazzettement” is created to fulfil the general order, but the private sector do not need to comply because they are not government servant.
6. Therefore, the jawatan kuasa of the KKM must understand their stand. They can control their staffs in the hospitals of KKM, but they have NO right to control the universities and the private sector.
7. Creating a specialist register is merely an extension arm for them to control the whole world to satisfy their ambitions, dictation and man-eat-man desires …. cool to be a “GOD” (as described by Geoffrey).
8. According to the general order above, there is no specification on the specialist’s qualification. Anyone with any specialist degree can be nominated as a specialist under that general order. There is no specification on the duration of supervision as well in the order.
9. That is why most of the expatriates (foreign doctors) with unrecognised postgraduate qualifications (from India, Africa …) in the hospital of KKM are gazzetted after a 6 month period of supervision.
10. Unfortunately for Malaysian citizen, you must have a “qualified ” degree before you can get a job. If you are trainned overseas, you must do a 18 months period of gazzettement !! It is a bit too hard for our own people to fulfil the general order !!!
11. I wish all the bloggers read this article and give Uncle Lim a better suggestion to make things works.
#26 by Pink Leo on Saturday, 22 March 2008 - 1:52 pm
As you can see, while many Malaysians can’t practise their skills and expertise yet they want to be home (or near to home), they all go to Singapore.
Who get the talents just merely because of our stupid policy? Singapore.
Who gain benefits from our talents?
Singaporean.
Did Singapore do anything to attract these talents?
Apparently not. They are just very smart and lucky to have all the talented Malaysian contribute to the growth of Singapore just by ‘doing nothing’.
Conclusion? Our policy helps Singapore instead of Malaysia.
Blame who? Singapore? No, they did ‘nothing’.
How ironic.
Comment from a Malaysian (Chinese) who worked in Singapore and now in U.S.A.
If you are asking why I am not in Malaysia? Just read this post again. :)
#27 by catharsis on Saturday, 22 March 2008 - 4:48 pm
williamtan11 Says:
Today at 09: 29.00 (6 hours ago)
Dear Catharsis,
I suggest you to check with the Australian medical council for further informations……………………………
I wonder which authority issues that visa- it is defintely not Australian Medical Council….that I am very sure of
I would give you a benefit of doubt though………… does Dr Patet rings a bell………………………………………………………………
or that Indian Doc whose visa was cancelled for his alleged involvement with the British terrorist attempt or QLD government clamouring for more doctors and the Australia Rural are clamouring for more doctors. Maybe I may have been mistaken about those Doctors of Asian cultural working in Melbourne hospitals who has attended to me who said they are here on PR visas…………but I am not sure what kind and level of assessment they had and by which body before they are granted the PR visas…………………
anyway I will give you a benefit of doubt- one possibility is your information may not be current but I live here in Melbourne and I can see many Doctors of Asian background practising here
Cheers
DIMA show be able to throw us more light in relations to Doctors wanting to practise here in OZ
#28 by dimplerid22 on Saturday, 22 March 2008 - 7:03 pm
As Shin. Geoffrey said,
” About this exit exam: after you have passed your specialist degree, you need to pass another “exit” exam to be a specialist. So, may I ask, what is the purpose of passing a local master or a FRCS, MRCP and MRCOG degree then?”
I would like to add that we are also subjected to a gazzettement period where at least in my case at the end of the period my logbook was thoroughly scrutinised and I was “grilled” by a particular private ophthalmologist member of the board (4 ophthalmologists in total) for ONE AND A HALF hours.
I was then deemed up to mark and gazzetted in 2005.
Dr Hanna,
Thanks for the informative post.
You are absolutely right that I am an FRCS holder.
However, the ophthalmology specialty board(under the AMM) has also imposed the “exit”exam on those who hold the local Master’s qualification irrespective of whether the are currently in the KKM,universities or in private practice.
What I propose is that all of us boycot the exit exam as the motives and implementation is suspect.
Until we have a clear idea about what actually are the legal implications of not being on the NSR should we be fearful of repercussions.
From my recent conversations with a number of affected ophthalmologists, not one of us have received a proper explanation on what the exams or the NSR is about.The NSR website is still DOWN!!!
Many of those who are affected are getting bolder by the day and are willing to finally fight for their rights.
Dr Hanna, if you are serious about “working hand in hand” and have more suggestions,please email me at dimplerid22 at gmail dot com.
#29 by dimplerid22 on Saturday, 22 March 2008 - 7:35 pm
The following is a copy of the letter sent by Professor G N Dutton FRCSGlasg,Convener of Ophthalmology Committee form the FRCSGlasg to Tan Sri Datuk Dr. Mohd. Taha Ariff, who was the DG then.This letter is dated 24th February 2004.
Dear Datu Dr Ariff
FRCSGlasg OPHTHALMOLOGY
The College is extremely concerned about reports from our Fellows in Malaysia that the Malaysian Health Authorities have decided to de-register our Fellowship qualification in Ophthalmology. I understand this has now been implemented and has been backdated to 1999. I am not aware from first hand of why this decision was taken, but have been informed that it was based on information that our qualification was not of Fellowship standard. The College recognises that it is entirely proper for the Malaysian Health Authorities to decide on which qualifications to register. However, we wish to ensure that decisions about our qualifications are taken in the light of complete and accurate information about them. We have a duty to our Fellows throughout the world to ensure that the true value of their qualifications is appreciated by those who are responsible for assessing them.
It is unfortunate that we were not asked for information before the decision was taken. However, I would ask you now to take the following into account and to reconsider your decision.
In the 1990s the College adopted a policy of ensuring that all its examinations were ‘fit for purpose’. An intensive review of the FRCS Ophthalmology exam led to a number of major improvements being suggested, approved and implemented. Historically one part of the examination (General Medicine and Neurology in relation to Ophthalmology) consisted of two elements: an oral examination and a clinical examination. The review found that this clinical examination added little that was not already covered by other components of the exam. The College decided to integrate medicine and neurology within the exam as a whole, rather than have them standing alone. The College was satisfied that this strengthened the syllabus in a sound manner consistent with a Fellowship-level examination.
The examination is under continual scrutiny and evaluation. The syllabus covers an appropriately wide range, and we require a high level of expertise and training experience from candidates. Such are the rigorous demands of this exam only approximately 25% achieve success. We involve examiners from other Colleges (including the Royal College of Ophthalmologists), the International Council of Ophthalmology and overseas examination boards. We take their advice on the structure, content and conduct of the exam. These are just some of the measures we take to ensure that the breadth and depth of exam are kept at Fellowship level. The aims of the exam and the standard required to pass are fully articulated in the published regulations. Finally, you should be aware that the exam is used by some countries, not to replace their internal assessments, but as a benchmark for them.
I sincerely hope that this letter will provide the information you need for the Health Authorities to revise their decision to de-register the FRCSGlasg in Ophthalmology. Those Fellows, particularly in Malaysia, who have gained this qualification have not only worked extremely hard over many years but made considerable personal and financial sacrifices in the process and have every right to be proud of their achievements. This is not a diploma level exam and these doctors have truly earned their Fellowships.
If I can provide additional information or be of further assistance please do not hesitate to contact me.
Yours sincerely
Professor G N Dutton FRCSGlasg
Convener of Ophthalmology Committee
It still annoys me when I see those who were responsible for this fiasco.
Most of us know who the main instigator was…..
#30 by dimplerid22 on Saturday, 22 March 2008 - 8:06 pm
BTW, one of the reasons cited then by the powers-that-be on the Malaysian side was that the college no longer had stand-alone vivas and clinical examination for neurology.
From the letter:-”The College decided to integrate medicine and neurology within the exam as a whole, rather than have them standing alone. ”
“The College was satisfied that this strengthened the syllabus in a sound manner consistent with a Fellowship-level examination.”
In short, a handful of Malaysian ophthalmologists (you know who you are) decided to punish some younger Malaysian ophthalmologists RETROSPECTIVELY over changes to the exam process which the FRCSG considered an improvement!
Who are they to pass such judgement?
It was only after a huge outcry that they changed their minds and decided to derecognise the FRCS “only” effective 2005.
Some of the decision-makers on this committee which passed resolutions on the FRCS and now the “NSR exit exam” are in private practice. Is this wise?
With the profit factor involved, one may wonder how much of this is a case of slamming the door shut after you’ve passed through it.
#31 by Citizen voice on Saturday, 22 March 2008 - 9:10 pm
That’s how I hurt when my colleagues from Singapore (in every regional meeting) critised that all chinese in Malaysia as “2nd grad chinese” and all intelligent 1st grad chinese had left the land. Why they judged us as “2nd grad”??? How embarrass & angry I was.
But it is true that we work like hell in this land in order to survive, eventhough we get “1st grad” education from oversea.
#32 by catharsis on Saturday, 22 March 2008 - 9:53 pm
williamtan11:
This web site should anwer all your queries pertaining to all professional migration inquiries in relations to OZ. Any would be applicants should be vary that your application is pitted against the world best and the assessment is based on merits
http://www.immi.gov.au//allforms/pdf/1121i.pdf
Cheers
#33 by catharsis on Saturday, 22 March 2008 - 10:01 pm
oops…….sorry…..it is ……
http://www.immi.gov.au/allforms/pdf/1121i.pdf
#34 by catharsis on Saturday, 22 March 2008 - 10:02 pm
williamtan11:
This web site should anwer all your queries pertaining to all professional migration inquiries in relations to OZ. Any would be applicants should be vary that your application is pitted against the world best and the assessment is based on merits
http://www.immi.gov.au/allforms/pdf/1121i.pdf
#35 by catharsis on Saturday, 22 March 2008 - 10:11 pm
Citizen voice Says:
Today at 21: 10.03 (52 minutes ago)
That’s how I hurt when my colleagues from Singapore (in every regional meeting) critised that all chinese in Malaysia as “2nd grad chinese” and all intelligent 1st grad chinese had left the land. Why they judged us as “2nd grad”??? How embarrass & angry I was.
But it is true that we work like hell in this land in order to survive, eventhough we get “1st grad” education from oversea.
DON’T YOU DARE BELITTLE YOURSELF…………….NO MALAYSIAN IS SECOND CLASS WHEN IT COMES TO WORK APPROACH, ENDEVOUR, SPIRIT, ATTITUDES AND ETHICS
WHEN I FIRST STARTED WORK IN OZ I FELT THE SAME AS YOU……..SO AWED WITH THE WAY THEY WORK IN A FIRST WORLD ENVIRONMENT- THE PROCESSES, THE APPROACHES, THE COMMITMENT TO EXCEL, THE PROFFESSIONALISM AND MOST IMPORTANTLY THE INTEGRITY, OPENNESS AND TRANSPARENCY, THE BALANCED APPROACH TO PROBLEM SOLVING OR DECISION MAKING-
…..BENCH MARK YOURSELF AGAINST AN ESTABLISHED STANDARD SHOULD BE A MECHANISM FOR YOUR IMPROVEMENT
GOOD LUCK MATE
#36 by Fairman on Sunday, 23 March 2008 - 1:18 am
If you come back, some ophthalmologist in Malaysia will starving to die. Because you are smart and make themself too competitive to survive. Thats why Malaysia government don’t want you.
To save more human’s life, pls do not choose Malaysia to come back. Singapore needs smart ppl like you. Singapore needs to grow further! The 1st Class Country… Singapore!
#37 by jetaime.f on Sunday, 23 March 2008 - 7:51 am
catharsis Says:
Yesterday at 22: 11.38
DON’T YOU DARE BELITTLE YOURSELF…………….NO MALAYSIAN IS SECOND CLASS WHEN IT COMES TO WORK APPROACH, ENDEVOUR, SPIRIT, ATTITUDES AND ETHICS
WHEN I FIRST STARTED WORK IN OZ I FELT THE SAME AS YOU……..SO AWED WITH THE WAY THEY WORK IN A FIRST WORLD ENVIRONMENT- THE PROCESSES, THE APPROACHES, THE COMMITMENT TO EXCEL, THE PROFFESSIONALISM AND MOST IMPORTANTLY THE INTEGRITY, OPENNESS AND TRANSPARENCY, THE BALANCED APPROACH TO PROBLEM SOLVING OR DECISION MAKING-
…..BENCH MARK YOURSELF AGAINST AN ESTABLISHED STANDARD SHOULD BE A MECHANISM FOR YOUR IMPROVEMENT
===================================================
Catharsis is right. To me, if you don’t hold your own self-respect no one will.
If you need to survive in the competitive western world or even Singapore, you have to be true to yourself that you can do it, and you can do it better, and anyone out there is just as good as you. Just because they are Caucasians or Singaporeans, do not mean they are any better than anyone.
Everyone has their own strengths regardless of nationality, race.
(Just to digress, I personally hate to see Asians gloating over Caucasians!)
Don’t forget there are many Malaysians who are high achievers in Malaysia and outside of Malaysia.
I can give you a list of their names and positions if you want one. :)
Have a great Easter everyone.
#38 by Concern citizen on Sunday, 23 March 2008 - 11:19 am
ChinNA:
I don’t AGREE.
Your comment didn’t hold water. I was the ex-graduate of Government Polytechnic, I knew well the painful process to write the assignment in Malay whilst all the technical text book was in English, but I din’t find any benefit. Now, even Ministry of Education is more emphasized in english, so your opinion to write the research in english didn’t carry more weight. How many academia will read your research paper in Malay.
I also didn’t see why there should be additional procedure to localize those graduate from external unversity. For instand, I dold the Master Degree in Quality Management from UK, I don;t need to met the “additional requirements” to perform my task, it is international Degree and I could work in any part of the globe.
GOT IT !!
#39 by Concern citizen on Sunday, 23 March 2008 - 11:20 am
ChinNA:
I don’t AGREE.
Your comment didn’t hold water. I was the ex-graduate of Government Polytechnic, I knew well the painful process to write the assignment in Malay whilst all the technical text book was in English, but I din’t find any benefit. Now, even Ministry of Education is more emphasized in english, so your opinion to write the research in Malay didn’t carry any weight. How many academia will read your research paper in Malay.
I also didn’t see why there should be additional procedure to localize those graduate from external unversity. For instand, I dold the Master Degree in Quality Management from UK, I don;t need to met the “additional requirements” to perform my task, it is international Degree and I could work in any part of the globe.
GOT IT !!
#40 by Dr Hanna on Monday, 24 March 2008 - 9:10 am
Waoo … so many blogs after a weekend ..
Dimplerid22 has been very constructive and contributing a lot of ideas to us, good to have him or her around.
About this exit exam … gazzettement is implemented just for the sake of fulfilment of General Order Chapter 5 .. gazzettement is only for the doctors working in KKM hospitals … now they rename it into “exit” exam …
For those working in the universities, they have their own mechanism to fulfil Chapter 5 of GO … so gazzettement is not applied … so, legally and legitimately, the “exit” exam is not applied.
For those working in the private, they are not bounded by the chapter 5 of GO .. so, again, legally and legitimately, the “exit” exam is also not applied.
The academy of Medicine wants everyone to believe that the “exit” exam is applied to KKM, universities and private. Please do not fool by them. What can they do apart from behaving like foot ball hooligans?
In order to force everyone to comply with the “exit” exam, they have to force MMC to implement NSR.
In the new amended medical act 1971 (yet to be announced and gazzetted by the parliament), all the specialist must be registered under the MMC. However, the role of AM will be unclear after that.
If the new act is implemented, will MMC submit all the application for AM to evaluate? or, will MMC committee evaluate themselves and to be independent of AM? This is the stage where Ismail Merican is going to discuss within this month or two.
Dimplerid22, I know you are afraid of NSR despite you are gazzetted. If they allow you to register with NSR, will you still continue fighting for those unrecognized one?
I know you are trying to gather all these FRCS people for support, but, in the cyberspace, most of the people are very sceptical of everyone’s identity. It is a bit difficult to them to trust you.
These people are scare, they may suspect you like Matt Damon in the movie of “departed” or Andy Lau in the movie of “infernal affair” (chinese version). Keeping on asking them to email you may not be a good way because you yourself refuse to reveal your real identity. Also, they may be afraid you will leave them alone if you have achieved your personal target. Or, you are part of AM’s people???
I do suggest you to setup a website to protest again this issue and let them getting closer to you slowly. It will take times to gain someone’s trust.
#41 by shin.geoffrey on Monday, 24 March 2008 - 10:54 am
Dimplerid22, your situation is in a bit of danger.
You should not reveal to the public that you were from KKM and gazzetted in 2005.
It is very easy for AM people to assess to Bahagian Amalan Perubatan of KKM … there were only a few peopel gazzatted during that time with FRCS (Glasgow) ..
After they obtained your name, they could go to MMC website to retreive your present working address …
Are you still sure of leading this group of unrecognised FRCS graduate? you may put your career in danger ..
In fact, if you start leading, you cannot stop even you have achieved your personal target .. (why?) ..
If you stop, your personal informatin will be fed to your follower and they will hurt you down .. it is quite easy to retrieve your personal information … remember .. Hanna is working there ..
Let’s me suggest to you:
It is better for you to continue feeding information in this blog for DAP to lead this group of people because:
1. People blog here because they have confident with the opposition party (maybe?)
2. People do not know you
3. You will not be committed fully
4. Once your personal target is achieved, you can silently retreat
Please consider my suggestion.
#42 by lakilompat on Wednesday, 26 March 2008 - 12:26 pm
These bureaucrats are performing a mass genocide in Malaysia.
#43 by Renaissance on Sunday, 30 March 2008 - 11:18 am
I obtained my MRCP (UK) recently and subsequently got a tranfer letter to a district hospital.I made several appeals,all of which rejected or not entertained. I already did my district posting in the past without any appeal.And I think people who did postgra courses sponsored by KKM or Kem Pendidikan should be given that ‘opportunity’ instead of the MRCPians who struggled for $$$ ourselves to get the qualification.Once we passed, we are ‘punished’ to do district posting again, separated from our family who motivated us so much to pass the exam.
I just came back from Singapore for interviews at 2 different hospitals for the subspecialty i am interested in.The Singaporeans are very keen to accept Malaysians and they are extremely keen to
to help us to become a Singapore CITIZEN and stay there for good.
No need to bother about gazezzment here because I will not come back home to serve.
Advance specialty training in Sg is recognized internationally (there is an exit exam) and those in the programme will have the chance for 1 yr fully sponsored overseas attachment. The bond is only 2 years.
In conclusion, no point staying in the place where no one will listen to you or appreciate you. Just leave to Singapore with much better prospect, standards and pay….
#44 by vin on Monday, 31 March 2008 - 12:03 am
for the information of the above you cannot become a consultant ophalmologist in UK with FRCS(glasgow) now.Even in Glasgow. You need to have FRCOphth(UK) and complete 6to7 years of training and be exit certified.
Singapore stopped recognizing FRCS(glasgow) much earlier than Malaysia.
#45 by shin.geoffrey on Tuesday, 1 April 2008 - 11:35 am
Vin .. Vin … Vin ..
Who decides how can be the ophthalmologist in Malaysia?
Hmm… you cannot compare the oversea system with Malaysia .. because every where the policy is different …
If FRCS (Glasgow) cannot be the ophthalmologist, then please urge all the senior ophthalmologist in Malaysia to step down. Remember, almost 95% of them have not completed their HST in UK, have not completed 6 to 7 years of trainning in UK.
Let’s be fair lah, Vin. If they can be gazetted, why not the present one? If they can be certified or gazetted, other must be allowed.
If you decide to derecognise FRCS, please derecognise all of them once and for all. Why? they are all not fully trainned also.
We demand a good explanation from them. With their explanation, we would like to apply on them. So, I hope they could give a very very good explanation.
What a disguisting joke.
#46 by hussainjahmad on Tuesday, 1 April 2008 - 12:29 pm
Foreigners with unrecognised master degree from India, Africa and Bangladesh can be recognised by just undergoing 6 months of gazettment ..
Previously Malaysian citizen with UK degree can be recognised by completing 18 months of gazettment.
Now … Malaysian citizen with UK degree is not recognised and cannot be gazetted ..
According to GO Chapter 5, there is no such thing as recognised degree …
Everything is man made to dictate and rule … purely is selection process for the selected species and asre lickers ..
#47 by fairness on Wednesday, 9 April 2008 - 4:56 pm
can somebody tell me what is this academy of malaysia? is it a legal body? who give them the right to recognise or derecognise frcs/ mrcs?
If a private opthalmologist in the AMM has the right to decide the future of the other junior opthalmologist ( recognation, gazettment , etc), there would be conflict of interest. they would try to shut all the doors so that no more private eye clinic will be set up around their great hospital to compete with them
#48 by Dr Ophthalmologist on Friday, 11 April 2008 - 4:19 pm
I would like to write to clarify a few points in response to the letter by Dr LMK and the other contributors.
There are significant differences between the postgraduate ophthalmic degrees offered by the various royal colleges of surgery in the UK. FRCOphth (London) and FRCS (Edinburgh) in Ophthalmology which in addition to being examinations, also provide a formal structured specialist training programme and thus is given due recognition by the UK government. Upon the completion of specialist training (typically taking 7-8 years) and successfully passing the exit assessment, the trainee will be awarded Certificate of Completion of Specialist Training (CCST) or Certificate of Completion of Training (CCT) and would be eligible for registration in the General Medical Council (GMC) Specialist Register, UK. This registration would allow the doctor to practice as a specialist in the said field of expertise. Holders of FRCOphth (London), FRCS (Edinburgh), CCST and CCT in Ophthalmology are recognized as eye specialists in Malaysia without further training or supervision.
In contrast, FRCS (Glasgow) in Ophthalmology in its current form DOES NOT offer any formalized specialist training programme. Therefore it is conceivable and possible to sit for and pass FRCS (Glasgow) in ophthalmology after 2 years of basic ophthalmology experience as a medical officer (or Senior House Officer) and importantly, without necessarily having any surgical training or experience in the field of ophthalmology. One could possibly obtain FRCS (Glasgow) in Ophthalmology without successfully performing ANY ophthalmic surgery. In view of this deficiency, holder of FRCS (Glasgow) in Ophthalmology who obtained the fellowship since 1999 is ineligible for registration with the GMC Specialist Register (UK) and thus would not be allowed to practice as a consultant ophthalmologist in the UK. In response to this, many countries including Singapore has withdrawn recognition from this degree.
Taking the above information into account and in the interest of the Malaysian public at large, the specialty board of Ophthalmology of the National Credentialing Committee has decided that FRCS (Glasgow) in Ophthalmology obtained after 2003 will not be recognized. Since the series of meetings concerning this issue were convened in 2002-2003, the board has not retrospectively derecognized in good faith those who have obtained FRCS (Glasgow) in Ophthalmology from 1999 – 2003. Subsequently this grace period was extended to 2005.
It is true that Malaysia lack qualified specialists in all fields of medicine including ophthalmology. However the emphasis should be on quality rather than mere quantity. In order to progress, we need to bench mark our specialist training and credentialing against best practice. The current form of FRCS (Glasgow) in Ophthalmology fails in this respect and has been rightfully derecognized by the UK and other governments (including the Singapore government). It is therefore appropriate that the Malaysian government do likewise.
As a remedy for those who are holding FRCS (Glasgow) in Ophthalmology who are in the UK who find themselves ineligible to practice as a consultant ophthalmologist in the UK or other countries (e.g. Singapore) since the withdrawal of recognition by the respective governments in 1999, they can try to obtain FRCOphth (London), FRCS (Edinburgh), CCST or CCT which are recognized in Malaysia. Alternatively, they should also be given the priority and be allowed to join the local Master in Ophthalmology programme. They may also be considered for exemption from the Part 1 Examination of the local Master programme and may join in year 2 or 3 depending on their existing experience. Admission to such programme should be transparent and based on meritocracy. However this will only be possible with the consent and agreement of the senate of the respective universities which is under the purview of the Ministry of Higher Education. Effort to ensure good and world class local specialist training should be pursued vigorously and continuously by the relevant government bodies and doctors alike. Hopefully this will eventually result in a world class health care available to all Malaysians.
#49 by Dr Hanna on Saturday, 19 April 2008 - 10:27 am
Dear Dr Ophthalmologist,
Totally rubbish !!
You are trying to divert all the people attendion to your points to cover your ass !!
First of all, Dr Ophthalmologist, have you completed CCST in UK or Ireland?
Second, since you have not completed CCST in UK, how come you are now a specialist? how come you are eligible?
To be a specialist in the government sector, you only need to fulfil GO Chapter 5. Whereas, GO Chapter 5 does not indicate any qualification or time of assessment. You are playing god role now.
To be a specialist in the government sector, upon passing your local master degree or UK qualification, you only need to go through a period of gazettement (6 to 18 months) then you are a specialist.
Let us inform you that implementing your “exit” exam is against the legislation and federal law. The MP in the parliament makes the rule, not you.
About your accusation on FRCS (Glasgow), “In contrast, FRCS (Glasgow) in Ophthalmology in its current form DOES NOT offer any formalized specialist training programme. Therefore it is conceivable and possible to sit for and pass FRCS (Glasgow) in ophthalmology after 2 years of basic ophthalmology experience as a medical officer (or Senior House Officer) and importantly, without necessarily having any surgical training or experience in the field of ophthalmology. One could possibly obtain FRCS (Glasgow) in Ophthalmology without successfully performing ANY ophthalmic surgery.”
It is very wrong accusation, please clarify yourself or either DAP or PKR will demand a good explanation from you. Please do not spread your hearsay here.
For the old FRCS regulation, like yourself, it takes at least 3 years of trainning before you are eligible to sit for the exam. 2 years as you have mentioned is wrong. In fact, FRCS (Glasgow) has extended the regulation now to 4.5 years.
It is very furious you still have your face to defend yourself in the forum !!! you have been making people’s life so miserable.
You are not doing it for the sake of the patients, you are doing it for the sake of your own ambition !!! You want everyone to lick your ass, right?
People like you, I believe, a lot of people are preparing to take you to court. Wanna play god? we have nothing to lost, but, you, you are well established in Malaysia, can you affort to make your name infamous? do you have anywhere else to go? you push us to the corner, we will fight back.
#50 by DR ophthal MS FRCS on Monday, 21 April 2008 - 12:13 am
What Dr ophthalmolgist mentioned about FRCS ( glasgow) is not true, very misleading.
(1) Candidate need at least 4.5years clinical experience to be eligible to sit for the exam , and the passing rate is only 20%-30%
(2) Dr ophthalmologist mentioned that ” one could passed FRCS without necessarily having any surgical training and experience in the field of ophthalmogy” it is not true. the viva of FRCS glasgow divided into three section (a) ophthalmic medicine (b) neuro-ophthalmology and general medicine (c) ophthalmic surgery and pathology , candidate need to have good surgical training and experience to pass this section of viva. so i am sure dr ophthalmologist is not holding any FRCS qualification. may just a ” world-not-recognise” MS Tanah Malaysia
(3) how many ophthalmogist with FRCS had completed ccst/cct ? very,very few .should we derecognise the FRCS holder without ccst/cct ?
This bureaucrat in the specialist board of academy of medicine have abused the system , they had shut all the door from the young doctor to become ophthalmologist .( MRCS UK / Edinburgh is not recognise as a specialist ). Now the only way to become ophthalmologist is to join local master programme but the intake is not based on meritocracy . sad to say that it is base on NEP.
Uncle Lim , please do something , FRCS glasgow should be recognised , These bureaucrat in AMM should not control the law in their hand.