Senior lawyer V.K. Lingam has probably coined the quote of the century with his “It looks like me and it sounds like me” statement to the Royal Commission of Inquiry hearing yesterday.
What is even more serious, the Royal Commission of Inquiry into the Lingam Tape may forever be known as a “It looks like me and its sounds like me” Royal Commission unless it can shake off the infamy of being dismissed as a “cover-up” commission.
After the scandalous competition between former Prime Minister Tun Dr. Mahathir Mohamad and former Chief Justice, Tun Eusuff Chin to out-forget each other in their testimony before the Royal Commission of Inquiry last week, it would be hard-put for anyone to out-scandalise the public – but Lingam was clearly up to the task in putting the two Tuns in the shade!
Lingam has applied to expunge all evidence tendered at the Royal Commission of Inquiry on the New Zealand holiday in 1994 taken by him and then Chief Justice Eusoff Chin at last week’s Royal Commission of Inquiry on the ground that they were irrelevant to the scope of the inquiry.
The Royal Commission of Inquiry will decide tomorrow after hearing submissions by lawyers representing various concerned parties.
Whether Lingam’s application to expunge the evidence on his holidaying with Eusoff Chin in New Zealand in 1994 from the Royal Commission of Inquiry succeeds or otherwise, nothing can expunge Eusoff’s testimony from public mind and memory, for they are most pertinent to explain why the state of the judiciary is in such a sorry state, plunging from one crisis of confidence to another about its independence, integrity and competence in the past 19 years.
Even if Eusoff’s evidence before the Royal Commission of Inquiry is expunged from the Royal Commission proceedings, they cannot be expurgated from the public mind and Eusoff owes the nation a full responsibility to come forward to fully account for his integrity as Chief Justice during the period when he held the highest judicial post in the land.
In his testimony, for instance, Eusoff gave the most ridiculous and bizarre account of the chain of coincidences which caused his family and that of Lingam to take the same flight from Singapore to Auckland, from Auckland to Christchurch, from Christchurch to Queenstown and the return trips – as well lodging in the same hotels, visiting the same tourist sites and traveling in the same van!
In his appearance last Friday, when asked whether he stayed in the same hotel as Lingam, Eusoff said: “In Auckland there is only one good hotel.”
I have been informed that even way back in 1994, there were four or five five-star hotels in Auckland.
If Lingam succeeds in expunging Eusoff’s testimony from the Royal Commission of Inquiry, the Cabinet on Wednesday must institute a full public inquiry to get to the bottom of the scandalous stewardship of the highest judicial post by Eusoff Chin when he was Chief Justice of Malaysia.
(Speech 2 at a DAP ceramah in Tawau on Monday, 21st January 2008 at 9 pm)

#1 by BlackEye on Tuesday, 22 January 2008 - 11:29 pm
“Is the RCI a criminal trial? Is it subject to the standards of proof of a criminal trial, where the burden of proof is “beyond all reasonable doubt? Or is the standard of proof based on the “balance of probabilities?†Dranony
It is not a court proceeding. Only a public inquiry.
#2 by HB Lim on Tuesday, 22 January 2008 - 11:34 pm
In a criminal trial in court, th accused must put forward his version of the story during the prosecution’s case so soon as he has the opportunity to do so. If he keeps quiet about his line of defence or his version of the story and puts forth his version only after the prosecution’s case, when he is giving his evidence during the defence stage, then the law says that the judge is entitled to come to the conclusion that the accused has concocted a lie after hearing the evidence.
Here, though it is not a court per se, common sense must also prevail. Lingam must make a stand whether the man in the video is him or not. If his stand is that the man is not him, then he sticks to that line of defence and not say that he did not say this or that or that he may have been drunk. His counsel should have put Lingam’s version so soon as practicable but he did not despite being asked to state Lingam’s stand early in the proceeding.
If his stand is that the man is him, then he can have other lines of defence with that as the underlyIng premise. For example, he could say that he was only bragging to Loh and that there was in fact no one at the other end of the phone. He could even argue that the video has been cut, sliced and spliced together so much so that the truth has been distorted. Of course he has to have evidence of what he says, though the standard of proof may not be as high as that imposed on the prosecution.
The point is that he is now not committing himself to a certain stand or a certain line of defence and he is even saying that he has to wait for the results of certain tests on the video that are now being carried out to even admit or not whether the man in the video is him. It is like he is saying – right now I do not know my story…I can only know or complete my story after I have obtained further evidence.
He is clearly at a loss as to his stand and is waiting for some favourable evidence before he comes up with a story, his version of what had happened or his answer to the allegations. He is an unreliable witness, concocting a story along the way.
The truth should be immediately clear to him – either it is him or it is not him. If it is not him, then be singlemindedly unwaveringly clear about his stand that ‘that was not me at all!’. If it is him, either the video depicts the truth or it has been compromised. If it is the truth, he can still say that he was showing off to Loh. But even if he was showing off, the question remains – how did he get such accurate official secrets? If it is compromised, then prove it.
By being ambivalent in his stand, he has no creditability left as a witness and his evidence should be disregarded. In fact, if he is patently lying, the RC should stand firm with its powers to take punitive actions.
So what happens now? Even a dog must be given his day. So, just let him carry on what he is doing now; the more he says, the more his creditability as a witness goes down the drain. At the end of the day, The RC’s decision should be to reject his evidence outright and not consider any of what he had said or testified.
The RC has to come to a conclusion whether this man is in fact Lingam. The evidence of the Loh father and son team should be sufficient. Was he a man with knowledge of Official Secrets or was he a fortune teller of almost 100% accuracy in prediction? There is no evidence so far that he is a fortune teller. Hence, he had access to top secret information only ‘privy’ or available to TDM and the CJ then. Discredit Eusoffe Chin’s explanation / evidence of coincidence upon coincidence and of his lack of substance to be a judge for his inability to even brush off a pest of a lawyer, etc, the RC should be persuaded that Lingam has a close association with the top judges and by that the inference is clear that he was in a position to broker appointments and promotions of judges. With the kind of official secrets that Lingam was able to divulge and with his close association with judges etc, it is a fair inference to draw from the video and what Lingam said that he was in fact brokering the appointment and promotion of judges.
There is no need to pinpoint any culprit. We need only a conclusion that the judiciary is not well and that appointments and promotions were being ‘fixed’ by people like Lingam.
Then after that, perhaps the RC should recommend e.g. some changes in the appointment and promotions of judges, to rehabilitate or nurse back the judiciary back to what it should be.
If that is the end result, the RC would have served its purpose of exposing what has all along being denied – that the Judiciary is filled by people not based on the merits, that the PM, at least TDM, did not bother to pick the best and most honourable legal mind to be the head of or to be in the Judiciary thus culminating in the present malaise of the Judiciary. Following on that finding, we would be able to argue for a change in the system of appointment and promotion of judges.
The first thing or issue to tackle after this is the predicted appointment of Zaki to be the head of the Judiciary.
#3 by scorpian6666 on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 12:07 am
I am really curious ..sorry for being naive .. Why didn’t they find out if the man in that video had the same shirts or pants, the same room with the same colour or even the same phone ?
It’s might be his twin brother !
#4 by HB Lim on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 1:09 am
Sorry, it should be ‘credibility’ rather than ‘creditability’.
#5 by DarkHorse on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 2:16 am
“In a criminal trial in court, th accused must put forward his version of the story during the prosecution’s case so soon as he has the opportunity to do so. If he keeps quiet about his line of defence or his version of the story and puts forth his version only after the prosecution’s case, when he is giving his evidence during the defence stage, then the law says that the judge is entitled to come to the conclusion that the accused has concocted a lie after hearing the evidence.†HB Lim
In a trial there is a structure that has to be followed. Briefly and very quickly this is how it goes. As the legal burden of proof is on the prosecution, it starts with the prosecution making its opening statement, outlining its case against the defendant. The prosecution in outlining its case presents just enough evidence the veracity of which if unrebutted would mean the defense has a prima facie case to answer. Counsel for the defense then makes its opening statement and submission of “No case to answer†without having to reveal too much of the evidence for strategic reasons. If the trial judge disagrees he would call for the defense to make its opening submission – and so it continues until closing arguments first by the prosecution, then the defense followed by rebuttal by the prosecution, and closing arguments by the defense.
Since the RCI is what it says, with powers of subpoena etc and is not a court proceeding, there is no structure to follow. Witnesses could be called in any order. Discretion lies with the chairman. Hearsay is admissible. It is not a trial and no strict rules of evidence and procedure to follow. No one stands accused of any crime. Indeed the purpose is to find out if a crime has been committed – the issue raised by the authenticity of the tape.
“There is no need to pinpoint any culprit. We need only a conclusion that the judiciary is not well and that appointments and promotions were being ‘fixed’ by people like Lingam.â€
The purpose of the public inquiry is to determine the authenticity of the video tape, and if there is enough evidence of criminal wrongdoing by person or persons so the matter could move to trial. Restricted though the terms of reference may be, the information disclosed during the hearings provides the AG with what he needs to know before he could decide whether to prosecute or not prosecute – and who to prosecute.
#6 by Jeffrey on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 2:27 am
This is just to go forward and clarify a little some of the issues raised by HB Lim in his earlier posting.
As we all know, the Royal Commission (RC) hearing is not a criminal trial, though commissioners have powers of judges in such a trial to subpoena and grant immunity to witnesses, and to commit anyone with contempt for disrespect or insult to them.
Procedures of trial & RC hearing vastly different, the former rather haphazardly without specific order, the latter with a defined set order.
In a criminal trial, the prosecution will be first to call its witnesses to make out its case The accused through his counsel could cross examine/challenge these witnesses to discredit them. At the close of prosecution case, if prosecution fails to prove a prima facie case, then the Defence need not be called and the Charge is dismissed. Otherwise, the Defence will be called, ie accused tells his version by calling his witnesses (to be cross examined and challenged by prosecution).
At the end of hearing both Prosecution/Defence cases, the accused is convicted only if overall the prosecution discharges its burden of proving beyond reasonable doubt the facts necessary to satisfy all ingredients of law relating to the crime/offence charged.
RC hearing does not conform to the above procedures. Even here Lingam is not accused of any offence – yet. It is guided only by its limited terms of reference which are to determine the identity of the person in video clip, the person with whom he spoke on cell phone, the persons mentioned in the conversation, the truth or otherwise of the content of the conversation in the video clip, whether any act of misbehaviour has been committed by person or persons identified or mentioned in the video clip and the appropriate course of action to be taken against the person or persons identified or mentioned in the video clip, should such person or persons be found to have committed any misbehaviour.
It does not per se relate to questions of independence or corruption of judiciary though its proceedings and findings may eventually be suggestive of it.
If TDM, Tun Eusoffee or Lingam are considered ‘defence’ witnesses (in the loose/layman sense), and video-maker Loh Gwo Burne & his father Loh Mui Fah as well as senior digital computer forensic analyst Mohd Zabri Adil Talib, are considered (in the loose/layman sense) ‘prosecution’ witnesses, then they are and have been called in a mixed order…….unlike in criminal trial in which prosecution witnesses are called first, and those of Defence called only after prosecution made out a prima facie case.
Talking about that whether the RC hearing establishes that the selection of members of Judiciary should be based on better methods and criteria, I think TDM’s testimony alone is already good enough to convince some of us that is so…..
About the other point – that Lingam should make a stand first whether he was the man in video clip and following from that premise only, he should next set forth his positions, whether he was drunk or just staging a brag show to the Lohs, and not speaking to Fairuz – this is a point by HB Lim that is logical and commonsensical (to layman) but what was apparently put forward by Lingam, with blatant inconsistencies, is something that only convoluted legal minds are expected to be able to hold on balance and reconcile.
Lingam basically does not expect anyone least of all the commissioners to believe that the one shown in the clip was NOT him. He actually does not expect others to believe his testimony; credibility is not his concern, his main concern being to preserve his right, as he sees it, not to incriminate himself by an admission on record and to require everyone else to prove to the hilt everything that is alleged against him or others with whom he is associated, whether or not it is reasonable for him to expect so and regardless that he may not have such right in either law or logic.
His main concern is not to admit notwithstanding overwhelming evidence to the contray that he was the one in the clip. [That’s why he came out with this original – looked and sounded like him (perception) without confirming whether the perception is true or false unless the original video or equipment (which made the video clip) itself was produced to him, which he is also fully aware is well nigh impossible, nor is it necessary…. .
Whilst not conceding an iota on the above stance, he proceeded to testify that the person he spoke to was not Fairuz or he could be drunk at that time as if and on the ASSUMPTION that original video or equipment (which made the video clip) itself was already produced to him and supposing that it was really him talking on the phone.
It is not his concern that reasonable inferences will be drawn by impartial arbiters/judges against him on such “double talk” or legal speak (*dubed by NST as Lingam-Speak) ; that he is prevaricating or lying, not a truthful or credible witness or anything else as long as he is not on record admitting even to the obvious!
His rarefied distinctions based on inconsistent what ifs (ie “first I am not admitting anything, you prove that I was the one in clip beyond what is apparent, that a duck that looks, quacks, waddles like a duck is inductively a duck, and second/alternatively, supposing I had admitted that it was me, then….” ) – this attempt to hold two apparent opposite contradictions in balance – is something of a legal speak that only the convoluted minds refined by ultra legalese training can grasp.
To practical minds, this is absurd. But it suffices in keeping out an admission on record that he was the one in clip that may in future be used against him and yet allows him, without forgoing that right not to admit, to go forward to refute allegations implicating himself or Fairuz (on supposition that he has admitted).
This is something like having one’s cake and eat it at the same time that in real life – other than in the ethereal world of legal speak – cannot happen or be allowed to happen but to him notwithstanding, so be it! What else can he do or say if he’s not prepared to be Dr CSL?
#7 by Jeffrey on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 2:29 am
3rd para should be “Procedures of criminal trial & RC hearing vastly different, the former rather defined by set order, the latter haphazardly without specific order,”
#8 by Jeffrey on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 2:39 am
Darkhorse, didn’t see your posting at time of mine; otherwise, would not go through same grounds already covered more elaborately by you on criminal trial procedures.
#9 by undergrad2 on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 2:52 am
Jeffrey QC,
Don’t you sleep at all?!
#10 by undergrad2 on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 2:58 am
Don’t let our friend Mr. Lim Kam Put give you nightmares.
#11 by Jeffrey on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 3:25 am
Very observant, like the Count, I don’t sleep. :)
#12 by HB Lim on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 4:11 am
Jeff, I wonder if you are a lawyer. You awed me with your comments which I have been following. You have a very incisive mind and I hope to be able to meet you in person. There should be more Malaysians like you.
Jeffery and Darkhorse, I am fully that the proceedings before the RC is unlike a criminal trial. What I am saying is that Lingam should have taken a stand and the RC should make him take a stand or else he would have the liberty to concoct and manipulate his evidence through time to fit his agenda and his story.
The other thing I am saying is that since the RC has been formed and has started its task, though we all have our reservations about its intent and objectives, we have to make the best out of it. After all, it is the first of its kind to look into the malaise gaining momentum in the Judiciary.
So, at least, if for nothing else, it starts an enquiry of the mind as to the source of the rot, the whole exercise is not wasted.
Mahathir has told us how cavalier a way important and high ranking judges were chosen. It was all his prerogative.
Eusoffe Chin has informed what kind of or quality of a Chief Justice Mahathir had selected as the head of the Judiciary. A judge who cannot even rid himself of a lawyer who wanted to tag along with him on a family trip overseas.
Lingam tells us what kind of lack to reverence for the truth can a person of such stature show. He can go before a RC and contends that the person in the video looks like me and acts like me but I am not admitting it is me. Of course, I agree with Jeff that he has to cover himself from possible criminal prosecution and therefore we have to understand why he is not a bravura like CSL. But I was indirectly expressing my dismay and disappointment about how his way of testimony may set further backwards the state of the country – the culture of deceit and denial.
A Minister can go to the witness stand and say someone else must be drunk and sweep everything under the carpet and say that his floor is clean. Everything and everyone high up in the Malaysian society seems to have a way out of scandals and dishonourable conduct.
I am very, very flabbergasted but still with a still mind, I am asking what good can come out of all this wayang kulit?
At least to tell the common people that not all is well. In fact, most things are not well at all in Malaysia! At the same time, it is not going to help if all are shouting about the unwellness without some sober guys explaining that despite all the shallowness in the display of gallantry and despite all our disappointment, some good has been produced. Some forward motion has been initiated.
I am concerned about the possible appointment of Zaki as the head of the Judiciary. Even if nothing of significance happens to Lingam or the other people mentioned in his telephone conversation, I am thinking that if the RC concludes that there is a rot or irregularity in the system of appointment and promotion of judges, and proposes or recommends that the whole machinery and machination of appointment and promotion to high judicial offices ought to be overhauled for the sake of the wellness of our nation, not all would have been lost in this RC charade.
And I am saying it is a charade not because I doubt the sincerity or integrity of the Commisioners but more in respect of the RC’s restricted or limited frame of reference. And what does Badawi prove to me all this while when the RC is in progress? Nothing. I think his mind is all engaged in winning the next GE. Same for people like Ong Tee Kiat, Samy Vello, Nazri etc. Are they watching the progress of the RC proceedings? Are they concerned about the rot in the Judiciary which hits at the mind and soul of Malaysians and Malaysia? Are they concerned that the evidence so far elicited from Mahathir and Eusoff Chin which tends to show that lack of regularity and seriousness in or shown to the Judiciary which is the material for lack of confidence in and the ingredient for jokes about our Judiciary?
I am hoping that the RC would conclude that Lingam is an unreliable witness for not having taken a stand as he would have to if he had been before a criminal court. I am saying that the RC should adopt the common sense approach accepted in a criminal court since time immemorial.
I am hoping against all hope that this RC would initiate something positive to rehabilitate and nurse back the Judiciary to the days of Suffian, Azlan Shah and Salleh Abas. I am hoping that the RC would stop the trend of political appointments of half-baked Chief Justices who rules on and strikes out cases based on the inadequacies of margins in a pleadings or who messes up the land law in Malaysia in the tail-end of his judicial career by such absurdity as Bonsem’s case, or who talks in the air about a Malaysian common law based on Islamic law or sends delegates to study about implementing the civil law system to replace our common law or who has no qualms sitting in a Tribunal to sack his immediate superior.
I am passionately against the political biasness of judges just because they are beholden to politicians who appoint or support their elevations. I am against the appointments and elevation of judges based on any criteria other than that of merits, integrity, ability and legal prowess and a strong sense of justice, fair-play, fairness and impartiality. I am against any attempts to cow judges to submission to and dependence on and gratitude to the powers of the Executive.
I am against half-baked, half-committed, cheap and “tidak apa” judges.
But I am sober enough to know that all these reversals take time and effort and I am hoping that this RC for what it is worth is able to contribute to the reversal.
#13 by sharibomar on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 5:16 am
Royal Commission of Inquiry should set the ‘Lingam tape’ with subtitle on and than allow Lingam to read. One test without liquor and another with liquor. By listening to the test we can Know his soberness. If he’s drunk he won’t be able to read.
#14 by kanthanboy on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 5:29 am
“What is quite disappointing is that only one member of the Commission appears to do most of the probing and the rest appear dumbfounded by the goings on.†– HJ Angus
————————————————————–
The job of the other commissioners is to look for any loophole to exonerate Lingam and all those implicated in the tape of any wrongdoings.
Don’t be surprised if the report of the RCI looks like this: The person speaking on the phone looks like Lingam and sounds like Lingam, but we no evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the person was Lingam.
#15 by kanthanboy on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 5:39 am
Jeffrey,
You think like a QC, write like a QC and many commentators call you QC. Are you a QC?
#16 by undergrad2 on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 5:56 am
QC are his initials. Not abbreviations.
#17 by undergrad2 on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 6:01 am
“What I am saying is that Lingam should have taken a stand …” HB Lim
If he were to do that, then his fate will not be unlike that of General Custer.
#18 by Colonel on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 6:18 am
“I am concerned about the possible appointment of Zaki as the head of the Judiciary.” HB Lim
Zaki Tun Azmi is done chasing skirts and has acquired his own pot of gold with a little help from UMNO. He is now ready to give back to the country that has made him into what he is today – a skirt chaser with his own pot of gold.
#19 by justiciary on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 7:48 am
If you are a crook,you are one no matter how cunningly you argue.You can deny,you can lie, you can pretend to lose your memory or you can cheat yourself.You may even get off scot-free although you have committed untold crime.But your conscience will prick you until you die.
#20 by izrafeil on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 7:50 am
i like the phrase somewhere up there…’Malaysia looks like shit, smells like shit and act like shit’ heheheheheh
#21 by izrafeil on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 7:56 am
err… justiciary…. i dont think politicans have any conscience… they do not belong to the middle world like us…
#22 by undergrad2 on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 7:57 am
The image of this man is still fresh in our memory.
http://www.geocities.com/seachange_2000/evil_judge.htm
Will the image of this man soon be replaced by new images and new depths of despair?
#23 by dranony on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 8:37 am
From the initial video which I had viewed and heard, I was never under the impression that Lingam was drunk, unless one meant “drunk with power.”
And I have seen my share of people who are drunk.
I wonder though, for someone like Tengku Adnan, who being Muslim is unlikely to drink and would therefore also be unlikely to associate with drunks during drinking sessions – WHY did he even suggest that Lingam was drunk?
It was later borne out that Lingam, who testified subsequently, also suggested during later testimony that he was drunk!
Would one be forgiven for thinking that the “Lingam was drunk” testimony was rehearsed? Otherwise, it would seem very “fortuitous” that Tengku Adnan was “correct” in “diagnosing” that Lingam was drunk, as Lingam later suggested, even before Lingam first said it.
It is very interesting though, that Lingam was VERY insistent that Loh DID bring alcohol to his house! Now, if Lingam was so drunk, how could he be so insistent on that fact that Loh DID bring alcohol that particular evening?
Or, was Lingam’s state of drunkenness very selective, just as the selective amnaesia demonstrated by Mahathir?
In any case, the contents of the conversation included “forecasts” that were later borne true, concerning elevation of judges and awarding of titleship awards – Lingam must be a phenomenal prophet when he is drunk!
#24 by Jeffrey on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 10:24 am
QC is an abbreviation for Queen Counsel. In UK and some commonwealth jurisdictions, QC title is conferred to senior legal practitioners in court, acknowledged by their peers as leading counsels who are of good integrity and character, exceptionally gifted and excellent in their specialized field of practice.
So Kanthanboy, thanks for the very kind reference. My answer to your question is – irrespective of what others have said – the writing looks and sounds like a QC’s but….. :)
On a more serious note, and in reference to various legitimate concerns raised by HB Lim, the following thoughts occur to me:
· Our hopes are pinned, to a significant extent, on how vigorous the independent Bar Council’s lawyers fight the Public Cause of Judicial Independence and how persuasive they are to get the RC address the alleged rot within the judiciary – the first battle is the present fight by them to resist attempts by Lingam/Eusoff to expunge from RC’s records evidence of their personal relationship on grounds that they are outside RC’s terms of reference.
· The other significant player is the panel of the RC Commissioners, how committed they are or otherwise in respect to the Common Public Cause.
· One has to watch closely Mahadev Shanker : he is sharpest of them all and by virtue of competence tends to lead the way for others. Where he leans is important – something one adjudges along the way and could see with greater clarity only with further deliberations and proceedings of the RC, it being premature at this moment.
· Generally speaking (with no particular reference to any one or body), perception is not necessarily reality, and competence and sharpness does not necessarily indicate to which side one ultimately leans or that one would necessarily would use the competence and brilliance for the right ends! And even if one leans on the right side, the majority who lean the wrong side can overrule and outvote one in the final decisions.
· We would have to wait and observe developments as they unfold.
· As I said before, it is a ‘here and now’ thing to get through this hearing all ‘skeletons’ hidden in judicial closets exposed to the public (since we cannot control what RC eventually recommends or how Govt will act on their recommendations).
#25 by Jeffrey on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 10:38 am
And of course HL Lim like others (eg Rocky, Godfather etc) are right in recognising that ultimately the most important thing is independence – courage and merits of judiciary.
Every issue of any significance affecting rakyat hinges on rights and obligations, legal or constitutional, and it depends on judges, the arbiters of all disputes : are they competent in interpreting and adjudicating complexities of issues, are they fair in deciding, do they uphold the laws/rules for justice or beholden or susceptible to Power or Corruption etc? If this prerequisite is not met, no change for the better within framework of law can happen, and it will drive the young and impatient to think of othermore radical means to effect change than evolution via negotiation with framework of laws.
#26 by kritikus on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 11:16 am
Bro Kit,
The responsible guys out there are all trying to prove the RAKYAT
wrong and are BLOODY FOOLS
Remember the P.RAMLEE MOVIE , “MUSANG BERJANGKUT” where P.Ramlee is FAKE BOMOH who dupes the ROYAL COURT MINISTERS with an bowl of water, with a few swirls of his fingers and mantras etc and tells them that there is and image appearing in the water and he sees it clearly and asks them whether they too saw it.
When they said they do not see anything, he says to them that whoever does not see it is ONE WHO IS BORN OUT OF WEDLOCK and they all quickly agree with him that there is an image appearing.
That movie was probably in the 60′s or 70′s
LEAVE YOU ALL TO DRAW YOUR OWN CONCLUSIONS
#27 by limkamput on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 1:58 pm
“are they competent in interpreting and adjudicating complexities of issues, are they fair in deciding, do they uphold the laws/rules for justice or beholden or susceptible to Power or Corruption etc?”
What if the laws/rules the judges try to upholdare inherently unfair and unjust? What avenue has the judges got, no matter how profeessional, competent and independent the judges are?
“no change for the better within framework of law can happen, and it will drive the young and impatient to think of othermore radical means to effect change than evolution via negotiation within framework of laws”.
well said.
#28 by limkamput on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 1:59 pm
…uphold are…
#29 by ahoo on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 3:08 pm
Royal Commission of Inquiry
YB Kit’s said it is being, ha ………………IFAMY
Lingam’s, ha, just 2 drinks and drunk …….SILLY
What about the Tenku ? Many said were COCKY
Eusof’s holidaying was part of the ………STORY
Dr M …eh…many believed hijack the JUDICIARY
Ah ……..That was sometime in the late EIGHTY
Causing every aspects of ……..INCOMPETENCY
and
Leaving this nation with question of INTEGRITY
Selected ……. TRANSPARENCY
Much talked about …….. DEMOCRACY
Top political posts…….. HERIDITARY
Many have no ………. ACCOUNTABILITY
Voted in without much ……… ABILITY
Screaming they meant it for …..UNITY
Care not for this ……. COUNTRY
Robbed and rape with …… IMPUNITY
Some behave with …….. IDIOCY
Other commit ……. ADULTERY
No APOLOGY from me when we choosed to be
governed by people from half past six MINISTRY!!!!
Vote WISELY and not commit ourselves to more charade
of drama from the Royal Commision of INQUIRY
where many have escaped …….eh PERJURY.
Malaysia Boleh; Semua Boleh & Macam, macam Boleh !
#30 by rhematek on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 3:10 pm
RCI should get Linggam to drink before he testify so all the ” rubbish ” will come out. They should use the same bomoh from the Ikatan Bomoh Malaysia to justify if TDM is telling the truth and give E Chin some estasy so they can party together in court.
#31 by grace on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 3:43 pm
Shim: I’m rather concerned about the scope of the terms of reference. Including the evidence has widened the scope to almost infinity.
Lazar: It’s not just fixing of judges but fixing of cases. What other consequences would come later, I cannot say at this juncture.
Hey Shim, If you want to clean the judiciary, make sure that you do not leave any stone unturned. Holidaying with CJ and AG is not normal for lawyers you know. Case fixing is more serious than football match fixing. Do not be a spoil sport!
If testimonies of TDM, Lingam and Eusoff Chin can be accepted, we can use this type as defence in future court cases.
Funny thing is that those people giving such flimsy evidencecome from learned and officers of the court. If my Grandma gives such evidence it is reasonable because she can read or write.
#32 by k1980 on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 8:30 pm
…those interventions continue to undermine foreign investor confidence in the local judiciary, witnessed in the large number of foreign-local contracts that call for independent arbitration in Singapore, Hong Kong or even London rather than allowing the Malaysian courts to judge on potential disputes.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/JA24Ae01.html
#33 by BlackEye on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 8:55 pm
To: limkamput
“What if the laws/rules the judges try to upholdare inherently unfair and unjust? What avenue has the judges got, no matter how profeessional, competent and independent the judges are?”
I suggest we shoot the judges. Then you and I can sit and write new laws and send judges (those not shot) back to law school. Why wait for Parliament to do that since it is BN controlled though they may have lost their 2/3 majority.
I think this is a brilliant idea.
#34 by BlackEye on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 9:01 pm
““no change for the better within framework of law can happen, and it will drive the young and impatient to think of othermore radical means to effect change than evolution via negotiation within framework of lawsâ€. Jeffrey
Yes, I propose limkamput to lead the mob. Hope he’s old and experienced enough to lead. Mob rule makes more sense than the rule of law especially when we never wrote that law, and judges are always abusing it. To begin with these laws are unfair and unjust.
#35 by BlackEye on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 9:05 pm
Well said, Jeffrey. Imagine what we’ll do without you and your brilliant ideas.
#36 by DarkHorse on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 9:57 pm
Limkamput, is that all you have to say – “Well said”?
#37 by limkamput on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 10:25 pm
Then you and I can sit and write new laws and send judges (those not shot) back to law school. BlackEye
BlackEye,
No no no, you shoot them and then appoint yourself or ask Jeffrey, Undergrad2 or Darkhorse to be the judges to interpret the archaic laws and constitution we have. I am sure they will find a way to do justice to this country without the Parliament. You are so clever, I salute you.
DarkHorse, Ok, very very very well said.
#38 by ALtPJK on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 10:35 pm
From the proceedings of the RCI in action last week and 2 days so far this week, we have seen witnesses’s testimonies that have earned stunned reaction and remarks like incredulous and even contemptuous from our posters here. While many deride the evasive nature of the answers there are others who make prognosis of the future utility of such tack.
When we watch the video clip and read about the NZ trip we may, in all probability, be getting a glimpse of skeletons in the closets of many a so-and-so.
Especially since this RCI is conducted just after the DVD scandal, it would be quite hard now not to imagine many other so-and-sos high in political circles, not necessarily involved in this Lingamgate but perhaps in some others yet to surface, having ‘makan cabai,
terasa pedas’ going through a spring-cleaning. Not that they haven’t done anything about it earlier but only now with greater intensity and detail and probably more frantic in disposing, disguising or ‘spin’ing their skeleton.
Taking a step further, just as someone had been practising this to an art form not too long ago, those who may have knowledge or have evidence about someone else’s skeleton-in-the-closet will use their leverage to dictate the balance of power among rivals.
The only difference this time is the multi-partite nature of such tussle. Not only because of the impending GE but also the scramble for the pinnacle post amidst what may appear to be an ‘uninspired’ leadership that we can expect more skeletons falling out or at least some closets opening to offer us a glimpse of other hidden skeletons. Chances are it’s more probable than that of
bumping into my ‘buddy’ at KLIA or Changi Airport.
#39 by DarkHorse on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 10:44 pm
“No no no, you shoot them and then appoint yourself or ask Jeffrey, Undergrad2 or Darkhorse to be the judges to interpret the archaic laws and constitution we have.”
Archaic laws? What archaic laws?
You mean our Constitution is archaic because it is about five decades old? The the U.S. Constitution is more than 200 years old and has, I believe, only 27 amendments. Our Federal Constitution of 1957 has been amended some 600 plus times (the last time I counted) and has evolved through a short period of some fifty years, and faster than the U.S. Constitution.
#40 by limkamput on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 11:12 pm
The robustness of a constitution is not dependent on how times that constitution is amended. It is also not dependent on how old that constitution has been. The constitution of Malaysia is amended more times than the US’s but that is not a measure whether a constitution has withstood the test of time or is relevant. Do you know why US constitution is amended fewer times (but I am not telling you because you people are not worth educating)? You see, I read this same old story you people put up over and over again. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing!
#41 by undergrad2 on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 11:20 pm
“When we watch the video clip and read about the NZ trip we may, in all probability, be getting a glimpse of skeletons in the closets of many a so-and-so.†ALtPJK
It is not the fact that there appears to be a very friendly relationship between a member of the bench and that of a practicing lawyer that is the ‘skeleton in the closet’ but the underlying issue of corruption of the legal process that it seems to point to.
The video clip may not be evidence of anything more than a drunken sailor with a credit card. But when the drunken sailor is a practicing lawyer talking to someone about elevating him and in his friends, all members of the bench, and that someone is third in line for the job, then common sense tells us that it deserves investigation.
#42 by DarkHorse on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 11:24 pm
“Do you know why US constitution is amended fewer times …” limkamput
Why?
#43 by limkamput on Wednesday, 23 January 2008 - 11:37 pm
Darkhorse,
I am not telling you, had already told you earlier in my posting.
I also have responded to your challenge in Lingam Tape RCI – Mahathir Evasive, Forgetful and Irresponsible. Go read.
#44 by DarkHorse on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 12:24 am
It is alright to say you do not know the answer. We will not think of you any worse.
#45 by DarkHorse on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 12:40 am
Limkamput,
I have but so many of your postings got deleted by the Moderator, I don’t know which one you’re referring to.
#46 by BlackEye on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 12:58 am
Someone who has had three of his postings *deleted* under just one thread and many more under others can’t be saying the right things.
#47 by Colonel on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 1:23 am
“The robustness of a constitution is not dependent on how times that constitution is amended. It is also not dependent on how old that constitution has been.”
Define “robustness”.
#48 by kanthanboy on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 1:56 am
“Haidar said what was reported in the newspaper did not give a good reflection on the Commission.â€
Public opinion is like a mirror. If your reflection in the mirror is ugly, the problem is not the mirror. It is because you are ugly.
#49 by undergrad2 on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 2:19 am
“Do you know why US constitution is amended fewer times (but I am not telling you because you people are not worth educating)?”
Mr Lim Kam Put,
It’s not nice to be telling others that they are not worth educating.
#50 by sharibomar on Thursday, 24 January 2008 - 7:00 am
The RCI must be serious and firm to the accused in answering. They should ask the accuse to answer in ‘YES’ or ‘NO’. And not like V.K. Lingam who is giving ‘uncertain’ answers which is a waste of time.