I beg to differ. Malays began to take note of the strings of hatred speeches by Hindraf since last July. Yes. The majority of Indians are not waging war against Malays. But Hindraf does wage war against the Malays.

Hindraf lied to the Indians with regards to demolition of a temple in Selangor. Itwas not honest about the issue. It puprposely told Indians that the temple was demolished before Deepavali. The fact is that the temple was demolished after Depavali, following request by temple management.

Why it lied. To incite the Indians against the Govt( meaning the Malay dominated govt). Hindraf clearly said that its enemy is UMNO. Unless you are oblivious to reality, you may not realize that the statement is perceived by Malays as a threat to them.

What was wrong by banning such a demonstration if the intention had already been known to the Govt and Malays. And the accusation is an insult to Malays, Islam and UMNO. Malays were accused of a very cruel act: etnic cleansing.

As the intention is already bad, what is the guarantee that the demonstration would be peaceful. Any authority would be forced to act.

Yes. Do what isright. That is what exactly the police did.

You appear to question the consistency of my faith in the police.

In the first instance, yes, you are right that I did deplore the manner the police manhandled Indian Malaysians gathering in Batu Cave.

In the second instance, I did say that we need to have faith in the police in maintaining the peace should 200,000 demonstrators threaten to disrupt peaceful assemblies.

The police as you know are only following instructions from their bosses. In the first instance, if they were instructed not to abuse their power, they could have restrained themselves. In the second instance, if they are instructed to prevent anti-demonstrators from disrupting peaceful demonstrators, i believe being heavily armed and protected, they can do it. That is why I had said that we need to have faith that they can maintain the peace, without suppressing public expressions of pent-up feelings through peaceful assemblies.

Shamsul, I do not believe there was any attempt by Indian demonstrators at waging war against the Malays, and that they were motivated by hatred, and demonstrated under the guise of freedom of speech. All these could have been imagined, and dire consequences of peaceful assemblies could also be imagined. However, admittedly, there were anger and frustrations at being marginalized. Let peaceful demonstrations be safety valves for the release of potentially explosive tensions.

That is the reason why I had suggested you consider what the Romans said “Fiat justitia, ruat coelum.” meaning “Do what is right, regardless of the imagined consequences.” Denial of this maxim may lead to a police state or a dictatorship.

Many thanks for your view. Nobody is denying any Malaysian from exercising constitutional right. But why must wage war against another community in order to highlight whatever grievances.

Yes. We must have faith in our enforcement personnel. Actually I am surprise that you ( jugding from your previous remarks) that you have faith in our police. So lease extend your faith to manifast respect to police in not allowing this demonstration, hiding behind so called” freedom of speech” but in reality is hatred.

Thank you for your response.

“Fiat justitia, ruat coelum.”
The rest will take care of themselves.

We need to have faith in the capability of our law enforcement personnel to keep 200000 people of any ethnic group from causing mayhem to peaceful assemblies for expression of genuine grievances.

Otherwise, what use is a country’s law and order set-up if it cannot even prevent unruly hot-blooded people from taking the laws into their own hands in suppressing an aggrieved group from exercising their basic constitutional right?

I refer to your remarks with regards to my responses on Hindraf. Rest assured neither me nor UMNO is racist. Yes. There are racist among mankind, Hindraf among other.

Hindraf leaders played to the gallery. It purposely incited the Indians vs UMNO, Malays, Islam. It was less than honest by not revealing the whole truth about a demolition of a temple in Selangor.

And the saga simply showed one thing to Malays. How some people go to great length to give some justification to whatever Hindraf said. And I hope PM learnt his lesson here. Nobody respects a leader who took his sweet time to arrest these 5 leaders. Several very senior UMNO members( the rank of Deputy and Vice Presidents) were asked point blank by UMNO and members why PM took time to arrest these 5 people.

The permit was not approved as it was racial in nature. And Govt already realized about how Hindraf had been inciting Indians from many of its ceramah since July last year.

As for dissatisfaction, not only Indians are not satisfied. Malays are also not happy with several incidents showing some rude people mocking their faiths, not to mention putting squarely the blame on May 13th 1969 clash on Malays.

As for your remarks on bumi/non bumi status, rest assured that A chinese also can become CEO in a bank with Malay being the largest shareholders. I am afraid Malays are dreaming thinking vice versa is possible. I am afraid Malays are also dreaming thinking they can win in A Chinese majority area in any election.

For those who are so eager to allow so called “freedom of expression” , just imagine if thety are at the receiving end. You know , the feeling like having hot blooded 200000 Malays protesting against insult by Hindraf. Just imagine the disaster that can happen should a wrong thing happens there. Whatever the cause , the result is still the same. A disaster in the making.

Do you notice that I seldom respond to your unwarranted provocations? This is because your perceived character is commensurate with my response to your comments — infinitesimal.

You need to do better than replying to an old post (about a week old which nobody now reads) and then hoping to divert attention to your ‘learned contribution to discourse on this blog’ with lurid references to “the woman’s vulva and the regrowth of the clitoris”! Haven’t you had enough of the dirty talk??

You tried to do that earlier using another old thread. I’m beginning to believe what Jong the lady commentator said when she referred to you as DOM or short for ‘dirty old man’.

I think Shamshul Anuar is uneducated or uncivilized, he my be racialist like some of the empty vessel in the UMNO.

My dear friend, Hindraf requested permits but not approved. They did a peacefully gathering but your Police is the want attack the Indians brutally by using tear Gas / Chemical gas and so on. You know something it was peacefully gathering, if not there will be different scenario. Did you watch the video and photo, which can tell you the truth? The incident happen in Batu Cave, it was set up by political gangsters.

Your UMNO cannot face the truth, thats why 5 leaders were arrested in the ISA. If your UMNO happens to be civilized they should call for a meeting with leaders. You know Shamshul, one of the leaders has submitted 100 over letters to Badawi but even one letter was not replied.
DAP / PKR and Pas, well educated they can reason the rights and wrong. Hindraf is requesting their rights. Indians and Chinese born here why they was not issued bumiputra status. But your friend khairy born in Kuwait but Bumiputra status similar to many Indonesian also have the bumi status.

Why your corruption leaders was not arrested or brought to justice. If you still support BN then one day our Government will bankrupt. Time to change Government Shamsul

As it is, there is nothing to be proud at all, but to be very ashamed and distressed at the scores of postings which hijack the thread which trivialise the ISA detentions and the serious issues discussed.

There is only one person who is gleefully following the descent of this blog – the Information Minister, Zainuddin Maidin who will be able to tell the world that Malaysians are just “goblok” and do not have the maturity to handle freedom of expression, whether cyberspace or terrestrial.

I believe I am not the only one distressed by the blog’s descent and I call on all posters to end this “war” and get back to the issues raised by the threads and to contribute to raise the quality of the discussion rather than the reverse.

Kit

I think posters should not be too eager to knock him to size so to speak. Commentators like Shamshul allows us a useful insight into the Malay psyche today. We are interested in winning him over through rational arguments rather than give in to our basic emotional instincts to bash him for his beliefs.

In the first place you should learn what a spade is. The fact that the Govt. turned a blind eye to the deaths of indians in police custody makes one inclined to the hindraf view.

Thanks for your views.

Our Federal Constitution promises us democracy, justice and right to pursue mother-tongue languages, but they are actually virtual realities.

We should not follow backward countries which deny their citizens their basic rights. Instead we should emulate more advanced civilizations, which keep their promises to protect their citizens’ basic rights.

There would be all kinds of dire consequences, like you said national disunity and exclusion of non-Chinese if Merdeka University was granted. The sky would fall!

Every injustice and unprincipled act was justified as being necessary because of the prevailing situation then.

The Romans had an expression “Fiat justitia, ruat coelum,” “Let justice be done, let the sky fall”, meaning “Do what is right, regardless of the imagined consequences.” In fact this was what the Queen’s Counsel engaged by the Chinese educationists said in a KL High Court in the 80s.

I believe that Merdeka University was not meant to be exclusively for the Chinese, like nobody questions the exclusion of non-Muslims from Islamic University. I believe any Chinese University, Chinese Secondary or Primary school is open to all races. These are business entities.

As for Hindraf demonstrations, the FRUs and the police could have maintained the peace and allowed them just one hour they requested to submit their memorandum to the British High Commission, which was ready to receive it, and there would be no incidents. The demonstrators were not provocative. They were provoked by the police and FRUs instead. There were no signs of anti-demonstrators, since there was no reason for their presence then. Why should there be a confrontation? The fear of racial clashes was unwarranted.

Remember the Roman’s expression “Let justice be done, let the sky fall.”

Sorry for typo error. The Sentence in the last paragraph should rea as “Even Non Malays do not believe…”

Manay thanks for your reply. But I beg to differ. Look around and you will find that in some countries , you do not have the privelleges to “retain” the language of the mother tongue. In other countries, you will not find vernacular schools supported by Govt ( which is dominated by the native). In other countries, becoming a minority means you have to change your names, your loyalty questioned.

As for Merdeka Universiti, it was denied as the language proposed to be used is Mandarin, hence denying the chances of non Chinese the places in such university.

And I strongly believe such a university will not help national integration. As for your remark with regards to actions of the Prime Minister when facing these rowdy demonstrators, I am afraid it is misplaced. In the first place, the Hindraf played on racial feeling, a very dangerous act. If left unchecked, it can result in the accused race, The Malays react.

Now imagine 250000 Malays gathering in the heart of Kuala Lumpur , voicing anger of being accused as implementing etnic cleansing. Just imagine. Imagine if 250000 upset people paraded in town and proceed to your neighbourhood. Imagine.

The truth is that many in Hindrtaf gathering are rude, rowdy. You can see yourself how they threw stones and whatever objects they could find. What do you expect police to do. Sit quiet.

I have no respect to thises hooligans. And police is right. A message must be sent. Being overly lenient to these hooligans is a maifastation of weaknesess.

And do remember Hindraf lied. Even non Malays believe that the accusation ( that A Malay dominated Govt sanctioned the killing of Indians as alleged by Hindraf). Call a spade a spade.

The PM needs more guts to do what is right and against the wishes of hardliners within his party rather than following the path of least resistance, which denied peace-loving people from legitimately exercising their constitutional rights, that of peaceful assemblies.

Allowing various ethnic groups to speak their own languages, which are their birthrights is a non-issue. There is no credit to be claimed for allowing something which is only natural to be allowed, like allowing cows to moo, dogs to yelp, and cats to caterwaul

What matters to the Chinese is their right to pursue tertiary education in their own mother tongue. As China is emerging as an economic powerhouse, the Chinese language may play greater role in international trade and commerce.
But, the Chinese community had been denied their constitutional right to establish its own Chinese University in the 80s, despite going to court with a Queen’s Counsel to appeal to the Government. About 20 years later, on Dec 14, 2007, New Era College filed an application to upgrade its status to University. Two other Chinese colleges had already done the same. We have not heard about the results yet. But, during those years since the 80s, all kinds of Universities, including Islamic University have been allowed to be set up. Is there any discrimination here?

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PM will be lauded by people like you and Western press if he chose to be lenient( meaning no guts to act). — shamsul Dec 26,2007

The above statement totally went off at a tangent.
Nobody expected the PM to be lenient, but to be reasonable and to have broad shoulders. People expected the PM not to overreact by turning a peaceful Hindraf demonstration aimed at expressing grave grievances into attempted murder of a cop by provoking them, huddling them into temples, locking them up, firing tear gas at them, and shooting strong jets of chemically laced water at them.

YouTube videos permanently captured FRU fring tear gas canisters at the demonstrators, beating up and dragging off Indian youths. If a cop got hit on the head by probably a tear gas canister thrown back at him was attempted murder, then there were many attempted murders committed that day by the FRUs.

People expected the PM to allow Hindraf demonstrators to submit their petition to the British High Commission, whose spokeswoman was ready to receive it. PM should have ensured that the FRUs and police were at the scene not to attack them but to protect them against trouble makers, so that they could exercise their constitutional right of peaceful assembly to express pent-up feelings.

If you do not get overly emotional, you may see justification for the perception of ethnic cleansing basing on the United Nation’s actual definition of the phrase, and what really happened to the aggrieved Hindus. Ethnic cleansing does not necessarily involve bloodbaths, massacres or genocides like what happened in Bosnia. It is not a systematic program at eradication of a race of people. See definition below again.

Ethnic cleansing — The official United Nations definition of ethnic cleansing is “rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group”. However, ethnic cleansing rarely aims at complete ethnic homogeneity.

Ethnic cleansing can be localized… rendering an area… remove from a given area… ethnic or religious group… rarely aims at complete ethnic homogeneity.

Displacements without compensations due to conversion of estates to townships, lack of education and training leading to gangsterism, destructions of temples without compensations, deaths under police custody, abject poverty etc. leading to the highest suicide rates among the races all gave rise to this perception of localized and sporadic ethnic cleansing.

Of course ethnic cleansing does not mean that the government is aiming at complete ethnic homogeneity by killing Indians systematically, directly or indirectly, otherwise there will be no such things as Little Indias in Klang and Brickfields, and other places where Indians are congregated as in certain parts of the cities and plantation estates.

Occurrence of ethnic cleansing is localized and sporadic, hence the perception.

Yes. It is a publicity stunt to get international attention. I mean everybody knows how tough or illogical for Hindraf to petition Queen Elizabeth 11 to appoint a Queen Counsel who is expected to sue British Govt( of which she is the sovereign monarch) and if won, would jeopardise her very throne.

But more importantly, why Hindraf lied? Why must it be dishonest about what it stands for? Why must wage war against another community( Malay) in order to demand justice?. Why destroy goodwill be alleging “etnic cleansing” that even non Malays find it nauseating.

Yes. You are right by asking to what avail on broom to chase Malays away”. But that was exactly what happened on May 13. That was happened when emotion is manipulated. And that was what exactly Hindraf was trying to do. Incite hatred. And the result could be a disaster.

What PM did was only to avoid the racial clash . There is no point in taking actions after thousand death. Remember . Prevention is better than cure.

The manner they resorted to in order to gain attention is unconventional, yet very effective. It should not however negate legitimate grievances, which they attempted to express as a cry of desperation on 25 Nov.2007.

As for May 13, I think there must be a mistake in the interpretation of “the huge replica of brooms supposedly to chase Malays away”. To what avail? It could also be interpreted as a new beginning, cleaning up the mess of the past, sweeping away misfortunes, poverty, etc.

Unless there is an RCI into this tragedy, there will be disputes over truths and untruths until the cows come home.