The Prime Minister, Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi flew into a royal rage yesterday at the Hindraf allegation that the Malaysian Government was carrying out “ethnic cleansing” of the Indians in Malaysia.
Abdullah was referring to a Hindraf memorandum to the British Prime Minister, Gordon Brown asking for the intervention of the UK government over the “ethnic cleansing” of Indians in Malaysia.
This Hindraf memorandum to Brown was dated 15th November 2007, the same day as the demolition of the Mariaman temple in Padang Jawa, Shah Alam, Selangor.
I did not know about this Hindraf memorandum until I read about it on the blog,
http://rockybru.blogspot.com/, on Monday, 26th November 2007 and I do not agree with such an allegation. I have no doubt that the overwhelming majority of the 30,000 Indians who rallied to the Hindraf demonstration in Kuala Lumpur on Sunday, 25th November 2007 were not aware of the Hindraf memorandum to the British Prime Minister and that they would not have agreed with the term.
Abdullah should not just rage over the Hindraf allegation of “ethnic cleansing” but must pay heed to the “cry of desperation” of 30,000 Indians from all over the country at last Sunday’s Hindraf demonstration over the marginalization of the Malaysian Indian community – political, economic, educational, social and cultural.
I recommend the heart-searing email by a Malaysian Indian, Ananthi, who is currently a Rhodes Scholar in Oxford University for reflection by the Prime Minister, Cabinet Ministers and all Barisan Nasional leaders for them to understand why law-abiding and peaceful loving Malaysian Indians have rallied in support of the Hindraf demonstration — not over any accusation of “ethnic cleansing of Indians in Malaysia” but to call for an immediate halt to the long-standing marginalization of the Malaysians Indians which have reduced them into a new underclass in the country.
Ananthi did not fully agree with all the things said and done by Hindraf. She said however that “it would be duplicitous” for her not to support last Sunday’s Hindraf rally, adding:
“Because I, like many of you, know that that is not what this rally was about.
“It was about being neglected, about not having a seat at the table to bargain, about having a national and communal leadership that we do not trust and is utterly discreditable. It is about saying no to being the forgotten Indians, and not enough of us in our comfortable houses, those of us who managed to work the system to our benefit – stood with the other Indians, who are not so different from us.”
Ananthi’s agony was the agony of the 30,000 Malaysian Indians from all over the country who congregated in Kuala Lumpur last Sunday to send a clear and unmistakable message to the Prime Minister, Cabinet, Parliament and government — that they do not want to continue to be the “forgotten” and marginalised Malaysians.
It is sad and tragic that a week after the 30,000-strong Hindraf demonstration, there seems to be neither awareness nor consciousness in top government circles that this unprecedented and largest gathering of Malaysian Indians must be treated as a “wake-up” call by the Cabinet and government policymakers to adopt immediate measures to formulate a New Deal for Justice to Malaysian Indians to end their marginalization from the mainstream of national development.
The government response to the “cry of desperation” of the Malaysian Indian community to end their marginalization is one so rooted in denial or so puny that they have only aggravated the sense of alienation and deprivation of the Indians as a forgotten and marginalized community.
MIC President, Datuk Seri S. Samy Vellu said on Thursday that the Prime Minister had asked the MIC to set up a special committee to analyse and address socio-economic problems faced by the Indian community. He also announced that the MIC will set up a hotline as soon as possible to handle all problems faced by the Indian community.
These responses are so ridiculous and laughable that they only illustrate the continuing government irrelevance and MIC impotence in ending the marginalization of the Malaysian Indian community in the country.
Samy Vellu would have set up scores if not a century of committees to study the problems of the Indian community in his more than 28 years as MIC President and Cabinet Minister — and if they had been totally useless in checking the marginalization of the Indian community, how is another MIC committee going to make any difference?
The whole idea of a hotline to resolve the problem of the Indian community is utterly absurd as what is needed are structural, institutional and policy changes in government and nation-building strategies — which no number of hotlines can achieve.
Tomorrow, the MIC Cameron Highlands Member of Parliament S. K. Devamany is to appear before Deputy Prime Minister and Barisan Nasional chief whip, Datuk Seri Najib Razak for his remark in Parliament that the Hindraf demonstration, which he put at 50,000, reflected government failures in nation-building.
I had berated Devamany for his Aljazeera interview the day before during the Hindraf demonstration in belittling and questioning the bona fides of the tens of thousands of Malaysian Indians who had gathered in Kuala Lumpur to convey their “cry of desperation” for justice to the government.
I had told Devamany that he should apologise for the contemptuous language he had used when referring to the tens of thousands of Indians who had turned up in Kuala Lumpur to support the Hindraf demonstration to prove that he was not being opportunistic.
However, if Devamany is prepared to stand by his parliamentary remark that the Hindraf demonstration was proof of the government’s failures in nation-building and “a cry of desperation” by the marginalized Indian community which must be heard and acted on by the government, then he must be supported by the MIC President, Datuk Seri S. Samy Vellu and all other MIC members of the administration — whether Deputy Minister, Parliamentary Secretary or MP.
In fact, Samy Vellu and all MIC members of the administration should accompany Devamany to meet Najib to demonstrate that they support Devamany that the Hindraf demonstration showed the government’s failures and was a “cry of desperation” of the Indian community for justice and that the Minister in the Prime Minister’s Department, Datuk Seri Nazri Aziz was wrong in labeling the demonstrators as “crooks” (penyangak).
Furthermore, the MIC team should extract a commitment from Najib that Wednesday’s Cabinet meeting will give top priority to address the “cry of desperation” of the 30,000 Indians at the Hindraf demonstration by putting on the agenda a New Deal for Justice to end the marginalization of the Malaysian Indians.

#1 by pulau_sibu on Sunday, 2 December 2007 - 10:53 pm
The higher education minister must be relieved recently because of this incident, else uncle lim has been after him about the ranking. he must be appreciating the hindraf demonstration
#2 by chgchksg128 on Sunday, 2 December 2007 - 11:09 pm
http://2hard2lie.blogspot.com
Bangkok Post has an article for racial issue
#3 by bashaa_manick on Monday, 3 December 2007 - 12:01 am
Definitions of ethnic cleansing
The term ethnic cleansing has been variously defined. In the many words of Andrew Bell-Fialkoff:
[E]thnic cleansing [...] defies easy definition. At one end it is virtually indistinguishable from forced emigration and population exchange while at the other it merges with deportation and genocide. At the most general level, however, ethnic cleansing can be understood as the expulsion of an “undesirable” population from a given territory due to religious or ethnic discrimination, political, strategic or ideological considerations, or a combination of these.[2]
Drazen Petrovic has distinguished between broad and narrow definitions. Broader definitions focus on the fact of expulsion based on ethnic criteria, while narrower definitions include additional criteria: for example, that expulsions are systematic, illegal, involve gross human-rights abuses, or are connected with an ongoing internal or international war. According to Petrovic:
[E]thnic cleansing is a well-defined policy of a particular group of persons to systematically eliminate another group from a given territory on the basis of religious, ethnic or national origin. Such a policy involves violence and is very often connected with military operations. It is to be achieved by all possible means, from discrimination to extermination, and entails violations of human rights and international humanitarian law.”[3]
The official United Nations definition of ethnic cleansing is “rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group”[4]
However, ethnic cleansing rarely aims at complete ethnic homogeneity. The common practice is the removal of stigmatized ethnic groups, and thus can be defined as “the forcible removal of an ethnically defined population from a given territory”, occupying the middle part of a somewhat fuzzy continuum between nonviolet pressured ethnic emigration and genocide.[5]
#4 by budak on Monday, 3 December 2007 - 12:09 am
[deleted]
#5 by calvinboy on Monday, 3 December 2007 - 2:00 am
This a reality of Malaysia….”DEMOCRATIC” country…i don’t think so…..All the media just say how good the govenment is…but the bad thing they are hiding from peoples..i think the next election the BN will see the big impact…The stupid UMNO youth leader just say stupid words…actually he just know how to say and protect his man ..how about others?.Do he care….That why until now Malaysia can’t compete with singapore….Bad image are created to the world now..Therefore,more and more non-malay i likely to migrate to other country..
#6 by Jeffrey on Monday, 3 December 2007 - 2:42 am
The Hindraf assembly was an illegal assembly. The Hindraf memorandum to the British Prime Minister, Gordon Brown contains exaggeration of ethnic cleansing which exposes its authors to the charge of sedition, or worse still the ISA under domestic law. Appealing to UK and Indian governments expose them to charges of being disloyal to their own country with Rustam Ali demanding a revocation of their citizenship. On top of that they would be mindful that racial discrimination in general and marginalisation of Tamil Hindu in particular would generally be considered a domestic issue in relation to which other countries would normally not interfere by international law and norm. Yet they went against these odds.
The Hindraf leaders are, by majority, lawyers. They ought to know the law, whether domestic or international. Indeed they know it but chose to disregard abiding by it. Why?
Increasingly, it is becoming clear, that whilst taking huge risks, they have a daring but coherent plan.
They are smart to know that the crux of the problem here is the prevailing political architecture of racial cum religious discrimination. And they know that no matter how hard one tries to dismantle this architecture by traditional means of the ballot box, civil discourse and abiding by the law, it will be an exercise in futility.
The plan from day one is to throw a red herring in filing a mega RM27.7 trillion suit against the ex Colonial power (that has no hope of winning), mobilize a demonstration, exaggerate the extent of Hindu Tamil’s persecution for the greater objective of riveting international attention to the architecture of racial cum religious discrimination in Malaysia, galvanizing international support for their cause, and principally subjecting the government to international scrutiny of its national discriminatory policies in the hope of bringing to bear unto the Malaysian government international pressure and moral opinion to dismantle what must be the last legalized bastion of Apartheid in the world after South Africa.
It is as if to say since domestic pressure does not evince the remotest chance to make the government change its stance, why not try, for a change, international pressure by spotlighting Malaysia’s inequitable policies to world’s scrutiny and attention?
Already Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said New Delhi would take up issue with KL; Waythamoorthy’would meet US State Department Malaysia desk officers, congresspersons, senators and human rights group;one or two Labour Party parliamentarians are likely taking up issue to ask our government to stop the demolishment of temples. Where would it lead to?
Of course the ruling elites are angry. They are because the strategy is working.
Pressure will be exerted if the plan works smoothly. How could, for example, government leaders posture with liberty to lecture Myanmar junta generals on democratization when their own backyard has the same problem?
The very life blood of crony capitalistic system upon which politicians feed here for sustenance is investment and business which will be subject to all kinds of risks (the worst being sanctions, though I am not suggesting it is anywhere near there at this moment) if and should international pressure intensifies and gathers momentum!
It is shrewd calculation that international opinion and moral pressure is also likely their greatest ally should and if the powers-that-be deems it appropriate to incarcerate them for breaking domestic laws.
To be sure many things can go wrong with this epic and ambitious strategy – a classic non violent strategy, Ghandi style but I shall not dwell at this juncture with these risks.
Suffice to say, what they try to do – by defining their Cause and Movement on a narrow frame of reference of Tamil Hindu plight for which they have been severely criticized by moderates and liberals as not being sufficiently broad based and inclusive of other oppressed Malaysians – may well prove the strategy that represents most hope for all Malaysians of ever pressuring the powers-that-be make concessions to revise the NEP and tone down the race based aspects thereof.
#7 by malaysiatoday.com on Monday, 3 December 2007 - 4:19 am
DiaperHead Says:
December 2nd, 2007 at 22: 15.48
You calling orang kampong “brainless�? Anwar is making a big mistake if he thinks like you.
Already he is making his first major mistake by going to Mumbai, India to give his support for the HINDRAF demonstrators and to call for Indian intervention. No matter how they spin it that is how it looks to his “brainless†orang kampong. Do not underestimate the efficacy of the local grapevine – it is around long before the internet.
Or has he forgotten that he needed to tell HINDRAF not to demand for the ending of Article 153?
=========
Spinning doctor to turn “brainless” orang kampong to orang kampong “brainless”. Anyway orang kampong do not need brain to receive UMNO-led government subsidies.
UMNO is played up a technical mistake of using “ethnic cleasing” in the memorandum to incite Malay hatred feeling against Indians.
Both Hindarf and UMNO are guilty for inciting racial hatred sentiments.
#8 by malaysiatoday.com on Monday, 3 December 2007 - 4:27 am
shaolin Says:
December 2nd, 2007 at 20: 58.03
‘Spiritually Bankrupt’ AAB, Uncivilized kris-wielding
Sakai Chief and Barbarian Head, Hishammuddin…
Are you still searching for good reasons to stage
another MAY 13 Race Riot and Massacre…??!!! Have
you still got the cheeks to do that…??!! The Whole
World is now looking at your potential actions now…
Just do it now and see what will happen to Malaysia!!!
==============
Indonesian government is still free from any prosecution in international court for Jakarta 513 riot even all evidences are circulated in internet for past 10 years.
The different is India government voiced out their concerns with Malaysia while China communist government remains silence against Indonesia for 98′s 513 riot and Malaysia for 69′s 513 riot.
#9 by lakshy on Monday, 3 December 2007 - 6:26 am
When one is constipated, one knows what medication or traditional remedies to take to help evacuate the blockage. But one must know where to go to do it. Presumably it is to the toilet bowl. Hence my comment to the kid is to deliver his “sh1t” to the right place.
There is no need to comment if he has nothing to say or to contribute. Thats what he should learn. Thats also why I refer to hima s being constipated! He probably sees himself coming to your level as he seems to adore you. Or are you the same person using different nicks?
#10 by limkamput on Monday, 3 December 2007 - 6:41 am
DarkHorse Says: Amidst all this uproar as to why was there a need to refer the matter to the Queen of England and all, we forget the real motive of this Moorthy guy. His motive is suspect. It looks like he is setting up grounds for his application for political asylum in the U.K.
Stupid (deleted), how dare you insult the Hindraf leaders! They are able to accomplish in one week what the MIC and other opposition parties probably can’t achieve in decades. But then how can I blame you. Your brain is just too puny to hold all variables together and see their ramification.
#11 by limkamput on Monday, 3 December 2007 - 6:48 am
wtf2 Says: [deleted]
Sdr Kit,
In many occasions my postings were deleted and on reflection, I agreed with the step taken. May I know why the posting above is allowed to stand?
[Valid query. Unless a new system is introduced that all comments are approved first before they are posted on the blog, such an incident as limkamput points out will happen. I hope it is not necessary to consider such a system in order to protect this blog. Can I also urge all posters to respect all other posters and visitors by refraining from using langauge which are crude, vulgar and offensive. - Kit]
#12 by limkamput on Monday, 3 December 2007 - 7:00 am
Colonel said: …..being a domestic issue and does not involve Indian nationals but nationals of another sovereign state, it might defeat the purpose as far as Malaysian Indians are concerned. It helps to fuel the suspicion that Indians could never be trusted as their loyalty lies not with Malaysia – but with another sovereign state i.e. India or Britain.
Stupid Colonel, wise up man! Do you know how much of abuse and violation of human rights have been committed in the name of national sovereignty?
Fuel suspicion that Indians (and Chinese) could never be trusted? Where do you come from, the Moon? Since when are Indians (and Chinese) trusted in anything other than doing business and that also increasingly is being curtailed. You are pathetic. Please go back to my response of your earlier criticism.
#13 by Godamn Singh on Monday, 3 December 2007 - 7:10 am
So lakshy is limkamput. What’s new?
Limkampuiiiiiet says “Your brain is just too puny to hold all variables together and see their ramificationâ€Â.
Add that to the growing list of one-liners from limkampuuiiiet, and what do you get – if not someone with a problem of controlling his ego, someone who claims to have good control of the English language and others do not, when he doesn’t know the difference between “egoism†and “egotismâ€Â.
Here are the rest of his “Quotable Quotesâ€Â:
“I think the more you write, the more you show your stupidityâ€Â
“We are what we repeatedly do. it is confirmed that you are more than stupidâ€Â
“I suggest you go for grade one english class first before you come hereâ€Â
“Colonel my foot. You are not even qualified to be private.â€Â
These one-liners are made to different commentators. He thinks Jeffrey is using another nick Lee Wang Yen!
What shall we do with him??
#14 by limkamput on Monday, 3 December 2007 - 7:11 am
Colonel said: When the British opened the floodgates to cheap labour from China and India, the Malays were not consulted.
So what are you trying to tell us now? Go back to history and change it? The Malays have lost this country by default, period. If the Malays want to go back to their leisure life of the past, they should have said so during the time of independence. The British then could send the Indians back to India and the Chinese to China or made us British nationals or better still annexed this country like Falkland.
#15 by undergrad2 on Monday, 3 December 2007 - 7:20 am
Calm down! Have you forgotten to take your medications this morning?
#16 by Jeffrey on Monday, 3 December 2007 - 7:21 am
The authors of Hindraf memorandum were not interested in its factual accuracies (the part on ‘ethnic cleansing’) because their main agenda was to dramatise the Hindu Tamil plight, bring Malaysia’s architecture of discriminatory policies to the fore of international scrutiny and subject Malaysian government to international pressure to ameliorate if not dismantle them.
It is all part of a classic non-violent civil disobedient strategy, which began, with a non-starter red herring of a RM27.7 trillion class suit against the ex-colonial government.
Right or wrong, Hindraf leaders are positioning to portray the country as a kind of last surviving apartheid “rogue†regime violating the principles in the UN Declaration of Human Rights in the hope that like Myanmar it will be subject to international pressure to dismantle the architecture of discriminatory policies.
The government is furious because the strategy shows a promise of working to an extent as Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said New Delhi would take up the issue with KL via diplomatic channels; US state officials will be seeing one of their leaders, Mr.P.Waythamoorthy and one or two Labour parliamentarians evinced intention to raise the issue with the Gordon Brown’s government.
With international support being galvanized, Malaysian government leaders will be severely embarrassed if they try to posture on the international stage to lecture other countries like Myanmar on its civil and human rights record.
Also it is also the very nature of patronage system within the BN to rely on foreign investors’ support to sustain the various infrastructure projects (the various “Corridorsâ€Â) to sustain and feed it. If the government’s image as observer of basic human rights is dented, it will have negative effect on its capitalistic programs.
It is striking where it hurts.
The other advantage of international support is that any attempt to arrest them under ISA or Sedition would elevate their stature towards that of Aung Sang Su Khi’s, at least that’s what they hope.
Where Hindraf’s agenda may by original terms of reference be restricted to narrow Hindu Tamil’s concerns, and has been criticized by liberals and moderates as exclusive of broader Malaysian concerns, yet what it does – and even if it was executed with scant attention to niceties of legalities – still it represents a glimmer of hope for all Malaysians wishing for the country’s discriminatory architecture to be dismantled, now that international pressure has been canvassed where domestic pressure has so far proven inefficacious.
Whether the grand strategy would work or back fire with the government’s tightening its grip and ordering a crackdown, remains to be seen.
#17 by dawsheng on Monday, 3 December 2007 - 7:22 am
Don’t hold any form of street protests now as the move will only stir up uneasiness among the people and harm racial unity in the country, says Information Minister Datuk Seri Zainuddin Maidin. He said street rallies, regardless of whatever reasons given, should not be permitted.
http://www.bernama.com/bernama/v3/news_lite.php?id=299806
#18 by undergrad2 on Monday, 3 December 2007 - 7:34 am
What the colonel must have meant to say was that the Malays have as much right as the HINDRAF demonstrators to file a lawsuit. They are not doing it for obvious reasons because they are not the ones marginalized some fifty years later. They were when the British were in control.
Ethnic minorities being marginalized are a world wide phenomenon and not just peculiar to this country alone. India marginalized its own ethnic minorities and still does. India is as guilty perhaps second only to China and Russia for human rights abuse of its own citizens.
#19 by undergrad2 on Monday, 3 December 2007 - 7:37 am
“The Malays have lost this country by default, period. ”
It is statements like this that gets Kit in trouble.
#20 by Jefus on Monday, 3 December 2007 - 8:07 am
http://www.hindustantimes.com/storypage/storypage.aspx?id=6cf6763c-f768-49a5-b8a3-0b5bf284cbb7&ParentID=3d5810ad-b435-4ebe-9c08-d2d7ac451b3e&MatchID1=4603&TeamID1=6&TeamID2=7&MatchType1=1&SeriesID1=1157&MatchID2=4574&TeamID3=8&TeamID4=2&MatchType2=1&SeriesID2=1147&PrimaryID=4603&Headline=Govt+to+take+up+issue+with+Malaysia
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/Scrap_demolition_plan_British_MPs_to_Malaysia/articleshow/2590363.cms
The Indians and the British have made their positions known. The world is watching how AAB responses. Lets us see if the standard bellicose rant works overseas,……
#21 by Jefus on Monday, 3 December 2007 - 8:17 am
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/Scrap_demolition_plan_British_MPs_to_Malaysia/articleshow/2590363.cms
http://www.hindustantimes.com/storypage/storypage.aspx?id=6cf6763c-f768-49a5-b8a3-0b5bf284cbb7&ParentID=3d5810ad-b435-4ebe-9c08-d2d7ac451b3e&MatchID1=4603&TeamID1=6&TeamID2=7&MatchType1=1&SeriesID1=1157&MatchID2=4574&TeamID3=8&TeamID4=2&MatchType2=1&SeriesID2=1147&PrimaryID=4603&Headline=Govt+to+take+up+issue+with+Malaysia
The British and Indian governments have made their stand known. AAB will dispense the standard UMNO reply.
Will we be taken seriously? Or will we be in the same basket as Zimbabwe?
#22 by Jefus on Monday, 3 December 2007 - 8:40 am
oops, sorry for the double posting – IE is sticky today.
#23 by Jimm on Monday, 3 December 2007 - 9:21 am
All of us did not and will never lose this country as this country are meant for us.
It’s BN that is losing their strength here and so much so that they begun to instilled extra fears and gearing additional ‘racial’ political grounds to continue their ‘misleading’ leadership to Malaysian.At this moment, their strategies are working as most Malaysian starting to quiet down and stay away.
It’s not us that scares …It’s UMNO as their scandals have been exposed by their former members…
Now, they are roping in the Rulers to safe them as part of the scandals also involved certain parties within.
The picture is going to be ‘harder’ to digest now..
They have no choice but to go for the highest authorities to calm things down and put everything back in control.
Killing a few to save many ‘involved’ parties will be the main objectives.
#24 by Saint on Monday, 3 December 2007 - 9:21 am
The term “ethnic cleansing” is wrong; but how is Malaysia going to proof it? A commission might bring out more worms. Samy Velu, MIC and their “social groups” are the main problems thus asking then to handle a hot line is worthless.
Kit why are you not opening a “hot line blog” to receive comments from Indians publicly, compile it and then deliver it to the PM. Would this not be more credible for all of us. You are also the opposition leader for the Indians in the parliament – are you not?
#25 by undergrad2 on Monday, 3 December 2007 - 9:29 am
US state officials will be seeing one of their leaders, Mr.P.Waythamoorthy …” Jeffrey
Officials of the Department of State and U.S. Senators are accessible in ways our own are not. The U.S. is interested in seeing Malaysia stable and an ally in their fight against Islamic terrorists. So don’t read too much into it.
The marginalization of ethnic minorities in Malaysia or anywhere else so long as it does not have U.S. interest in the balance, does not matter to the U.S. Perhaps some junior official in the Department of State dealing with U.S. interests in the region will be asked to issue some kind of statement. It doesn’t hurt anybody to issue a statement. Democratization of regimes leaning towards authoritarianism is always good for the U.S.
#26 by cheng on soo on Monday, 3 December 2007 - 9:57 am
Right, limkamput, if Malays want to go back to their leisure life of the past, (as claim by some umno supporters now) they should have said so during the time of independence. the umno leaders at 1957, can then ask the British to send the Indians back to India and the Chinese to China or made us British nationals or pajak for another 99 years like HK.
Leisure life is not something u want u get it easily. so easy meh! leisure life for 50 years n more ?? think properly lah. nos of mouth to feed, same kah? no many anak n cucu, hah? no tv, no internet, no many car, no flush toilet, no many tap water, no many u graduates, no many electricity etc, ok? need many Mat salleh or Jepun for many high tech things? If Chinese n Indian were sent back then, probably Msia today will be dominated by mat salleh n jepun, better kah? ingat betul2 lah!
Look like present umno leaders cannot agree with their own leaders of 1957 that Indian n Chinese in Malaya were accepted as citizen ! n hence should be treated equally as any other citizen. There is no one country that discriminate more than 35% of its citizen can prosper for long time! sooner or later every citizen will suffer ! at least economically !
#27 by undergrad2 on Monday, 3 December 2007 - 9:59 am
Saint,
There is a poster so far who tries to blur the definition of ‘ethnic cleansing’. The best way is not to define but to point to examples of ‘ethnic cleansing’ when you see one. What happened to the Kurds under Saddam Hussein is one. What the Turks did in the First WW and what the U.S. Congress decided to classify it as ‘ethnic cleansing’ is another. What happened in Bosnia more recently is yet another.
By referring to incidents here in Malaysia involving the Indians as ‘ethnic cleansing’ is to trivialize the serious issue of marginalization.
#28 by Godfather on Monday, 3 December 2007 - 10:34 am
In today’s STAR, Semi Value asked rhetorically if Malaysian Indians don’t have clothes to wear or food to eat. Is he thinking that we are living in the colonial era ? He completely misses the point about marginalisation, and if the Indians continue to vote for a clown like that, then I really will have no sympathies for them.
#29 by undergrad2 on Monday, 3 December 2007 - 10:38 am
However, Godfather don’t you think the following characterization of events is rather off the mark??
“When the minority Tamil population was similarly oppressed in Sri Lanka, they revolted and now the country has descended into a full-fledged civil war, says an editorial in India Daily. It goes on to say, “A similar situation is arising in Malaysia…”
The Indian government withdrew its support of the Tamil Tigers and the U.S. has classified it as a terrorist organization.
#30 by undergrad2 on Monday, 3 December 2007 - 10:43 am
…and here’s what Wikipedia got to say about persecution of Hindus:
“Persecution of Hindus refers to the religious persecution inflicted upon Hindus. Hindus have been historically persecuted during Islamic rule of the Indian subcontinent and during Portuguese rule of Goa. In modern times, Hindus in Kashmir, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Uganda and Fiji have also suffered persecution. Persecution of Hindus during Islamic rule was conducted through massive “ethnic cleansing”, forced religious conversion, enslavement, desecration and demolition of Hindu temples and ashrams.[citation needed] Christian persecution of Hindus in Goa during Portuguese rule, included the defamation of Hinduism through forced conversions, burnings, mass-rapes of Hindu women (and the sexual abuse of Hindu children), lootings, and other violent means. Persecution also extended to the confiscation or destruction of private Hindu property, or the incitement of violence through propaganda.”
#31 by Godfather on Monday, 3 December 2007 - 11:00 am
The Indian Daily is talking about “oppression”. I think the editors know that there is no full-fledged civil war yet, but they are obviously implying that there could be one.
In Indian government withdrew its support of the Tamil Tigers, but stood idly by as the Tamilians in Tamil Nadu continued to support the movement financially as well as logistically. As for the US, do you think that its classification of the LTTE as a terrorist organisation has any effect on that organisation ?
#32 by Godfather on Monday, 3 December 2007 - 11:09 am
If UMNO truly did not oppress the minority races, then they should come out into the open (I liked the “transparency” promise by Badawi 4 years ago) and categorise what they have done for Indians in the past 20 years. Come public with the developments on Maika Holdings and the Telekom shares. Come public on the ACA’s investigations into the wealth of Semi Value and his family members.
Nah, UMNO won’t do that simply because it would clearly show that they have only thrown crumbs to the Indians and that those crumbs were monopolised by a select few within the MIC. Furthermore, by having Semi Value as UMNO’s enforcer for the leakages from government contracts, there is no chance that Semi would be asked to account for his misdeeds.
#33 by hutchrun on Monday, 3 December 2007 - 11:50 am
For someone up there who thinks ethnic cleansing only means killing, read this:
ethnic cleansing [Encyclopædia Britannica Article]
the attempt to create ethnically homogeneous geographic areas through the deportation or forcible displacement of persons belonging to particular ethnic groups. Ethnic cleansing sometimes involves the removal of all physical vestiges of the targeted group through the destruction of monuments, cemeteries, and houses of worship.
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9390062/ethnic-cleansing
In that sense Hindraf is right.
#34 by k1980 on Monday, 3 December 2007 - 3:16 pm
When will we all get to say, “It’s morning again in Malaysia.”
http://www.geocities.com/youbrightenmyworld/-_Morning-Has-Broken_-.html
Morning has broken, like the first morning
Blackbird has spoken, like the first bird
Praise for the singing, praise for the morning
Praise for the springing fresh from the word
Sweet the rain’s new fall, sunlit from heaven
Like the first dewfall, on the first grass
Praise for the sweetness of the wet garden
Sprung in completeness where his feet pass
Mine is the sunlight, mine is the morning
Born of the one light, Eden saw play
Praise with elation, praise every morning
God’s recreation of the new day
#35 by lakshy on Monday, 3 December 2007 - 4:08 pm
We have England and Indian now putting pressure on Malaysian Govt. Good! That would mean that they have a true picture of what happened on 25th Dec.
#36 by Godfather on Monday, 3 December 2007 - 4:55 pm
Lakshy: It would also mean that they can look into the future. Maybe they have seen that Father Christmas will be very generous with Malaysians this year.
#37 by undergrad2 on Monday, 3 December 2007 - 7:05 pm
Godftaher,
The U.S. government is not naive as to believe that by it classifying an organization terrorist or a regime terrorist it would lead to its demise. It is only the first step towards isolating a regime if that is the case, or the first step in stopping funding to those countries who support it.
It should not be surprising if India’s withdrawal of support (but events show that India did not always support this organization) for the Tamil Tigers has something to do with the U.S. stance on the issue. The Sri Lankan government is a legitimately elected government but representation is skewed towards the representation of the majority race – the Hindus being an ethnic minority. Correct me if I’m wrong.
The U.S. classification of organizations as “terrorist” has consequences. One of them is to refuse asylum to individuals seeking it anywhere in the world should they be found to be involved in organizations classified as “terrorist”.
#38 by DarkHorse on Monday, 3 December 2007 - 8:31 pm
“If the Powers-that-be have their fingers on the pulse of society and are smart, Section 27 of the police Act, which came into being out of the exigencies of May 13 would be scrapped off immediately to remove any doubt whether a rally without police permit is illegal.” EARNEST
I see you’re still confused over the issue of what is legal and what is not!
“Whether a rally without police permit is illegal”?
What should we call a rally or assembly or public demonstrations without a permit if not “illegal”? Isn’t something that goes against the law illegal?? Is there any doubt??
#39 by DarkHorse on Monday, 3 December 2007 - 8:35 pm
I don’t think we need a Cambridge scholar like Lee Wang Yen to explain to you the difference between “illegal” and “morally wrong” or “unconscionable”. His analogy of the bible smuggling priest is a good enough example.
#40 by Saint on Monday, 3 December 2007 - 8:56 pm
Dear Undergrad2 – I agreed that the term “ethnic cleansing†was wrong. It did not happen in Malaysia, but there is one or two regrettable instances that the government does not want to investigate and make public the actual story. If somebody, “here Hindraf†wants those cases to be investigated then calling them “ethnic cleansing†is putting the onus on the government to proof it did not happen. Here again the government will keep on harping that “ethnic cleansing†did not happen (which is very true); but will not take steps to investigate and make a report as it will not be good to the BN government. So Hindraf has placed the BN government in an uncomfortable position. This is a bad publicity stun by Hindraf; but then BN is also not a fair player either. Thanks for the comment for I should have been clearer.
#41 by Loh on Monday, 3 December 2007 - 9:46 pm
testing
#42 by Godamn Singh on Monday, 3 December 2007 - 10:08 pm
limkampuuuuiet!
Take note Kit’s reply to your objection:
“Can I also urge all posters to respect all other posters and visitors by refraining from using langauge which are crude, vulgar and offensive. – Kit]”
Kit is always polite and diplomatic in the use of the English language. I hope the message is not lost on you.
#43 by limkamput on Monday, 3 December 2007 - 10:31 pm
“The Malays have lost this country by default, period. â€Â
It is statements like this that gets Kit in trouble. Undergrad2
Typical of your spineless character! If you want to debate with me, please come directly to me. There is no need to involve Sdr Kit. What is the problem with my statement? Have you not just heard that the Melaka CM has called or revocation of citizenship of those who want to take the case abroad? Please have some conviction of what you want to say. Otherwise my characterisation of you been intellectually corrupted in my earlier posting was not farfetched.
#44 by limkamput on Monday, 3 December 2007 - 10:54 pm
DarkHorse said: I don’t think we need a Cambridge scholar like Lee Wang Yen to explain to you the difference between “illegal†and “morally wrong†or “unconscionableâ€Â. His analogy of the bible smuggling priest is a good enough example.
Lee Wang Yen, Lee Wang Yen, Lee Wang Yen, Lee Wang Yen, Lee Wang Yen, Lee Wang Yen, Lee Wang Yen, Lee Wang Yen, Lee Wang Yen, Lee Wang Yen, Lee Wang Yen. Can you not use your puny head to think a bit? Look, the world is not made different by those ivory tower brats. It is made different by people in HINDRAF. Got it? One more thing may be I need to remind an ignorant soul like you is that the world has progressed for hundreds of years without Phd. So stop blindly worshiping all those brats whose only gift is probably just know how to write and argue but in term of practical solution, they have nothing to offer.
Tell me again the purpose of laboriously trying to explain the concept of being morally right but legally wrong. May be I should widen the debate further: How about doing the right thing wrong? What about doing the wrong things right? I hope it is not too difficult for you. Who need these polemics within the context of HINDRAF and BERSIH demonstrations?
#45 by undergrad2 on Monday, 3 December 2007 - 11:24 pm
Goddamn Singh,
It is too much to expect a Cambridge wannabe from Kg. Attap (a red light district) to understand the polite reminder by Kit (above) in reply to his inquiry as to why his post has been deleted.
After all he’s always referring to the “epitome of…” something or other. He keeps referring to the “epitome of egoism” without understanding the difference between “egoism” and “egotism” and yet he says posters have poor control of English and that he can write better. sheeesh….
#46 by limkamput on Tuesday, 4 December 2007 - 12:16 am
Kit’s reminder is for ALL blogers. My posting that got deleted was never on those words I used on you all. It was my indiscretion on word choice on issues of the day. You people should also look at how you attacked me simply because I am prepared to stand up against half-baked self centred morons. If not for the respect I cherish for this blog, I would have used even stronger terms on people like Godamn Singh and DarkHorse. As for Undergrad2, let me use another word on you. You are about the most treacherous person I ever met in this blog in which on amount of medication can ever cure you.
[Let us agree to disagree agreeably. It pains everyone to read the prolonged and protracted exchange of invectives and name-calling. Lets call a halt. Otherwise, posters will have to be put on the moderator list (2) which, as mentioned elsewhere, may take 24 - 48 hours to clear because of time constraints. Can we move on? - Kit]
#47 by lakshy on Tuesday, 4 December 2007 - 5:50 am
Ha ha, immature maybe, but I dont think treacherous would describe him. He pings and he pongs.
And if he is an undergraduate, he should not be spending much of his time here. His priority should be to do well in his exams and graduate. Then find decent work, and contribute to society. But for now, study.
#48 by DarkHorse on Tuesday, 4 December 2007 - 6:51 am
“Kit’s reminder is for ALL bloger” limkampout
Yeah, you wish! Kit chose to do so as part of his reply to your complaint. What does that tell posters?? You are crude and rude. You don’t expect Kit to be like you, do you?
It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out to whom that advice was directed. You, limkampout are the only poster here who fits the description, calling other posters names like “moron”, “stupid”, “spineless” to name but a few.
Freedom of speech to you means the freedom to bash others for not sharing your opinion or ignoring your comments, your purported “ability to hold more than three variable in your head” – to use your own words. LOL. You bashed Jeffrey and Lee Wang Yeng and there are posters here who would do the same to you if you continue with your tirade.
You asked what’s wrong with labeling others “stupid” “moron” “spineless” and threatening to belittle posters with derogatory comments etc?? Which hole did you crawl from?
In case you miss out what Goddam Singh said about you on another thread, here let me cut and paste so you could read it at your convenience and reflect:
///Obviously our limkampuiiiiiet has chosen to ignore a polite and diplomatic reminder by Kit to him in reply to his enquiry as to why his post has been deleted – as follows:
[“Can I also urge all posters to respect all other posters and visitors by refraining from using langauge which are crude, vulgar and offensive. - Kit]
He has just added another one-liner to the string of one-liners to posters:
“You are a spineless bastardâ€Â
Here are the rest of his “quotable quotes†littered all over the threads:
“I think the more you write, the more you show your stupidityâ€Â
“We are what we repeatedly do. it is confirmed that you are more than stupidâ€Â
“I suggest you go for grade one english class first before you come here†to
“Colonel my foot. You are not even qualified to be private.â€Â
We would like to know what does it take for him to acknowledge the need to observe civility in the exchanges since a polite reminder from the blog owner has failed.///
So stop abusing the opportunity afforded to posters by YB Kit who has worked hard to provide the platform. We are here to discuss serious issues. We are not here to show how smart we are and who are not. We disagree if we have to but without the name calling.
#49 by ktteokt on Tuesday, 4 December 2007 - 7:48 am
After these demonstrations, MALAYSIA is now indeed in the international limelight. This time around, Malaysia can really claim that “MALAYSIA BENAR-BENAR BOLEH!!” – shameful, that is.
#50 by Godfather on Tuesday, 4 December 2007 - 10:53 am
Yes, I agree that those warring parties should stop hijacking the threads in this blog for airing personal insults. The war is out there, and you guys are throwing eggs at each other. Don’t really know what else to say except to sigh.