After Lina Joy case – Malaysia, Quo Vadis!


The Federal Court 2-1 majority decision rejecting Lina Joy’s appeal marks a tectonic shift of Malaysia in moving further and further away from the Merdeka “Social Contract” founding principles of nation-building agreed by the forefathers of the major communities on the attainment of independent nationhood.

It casts a larger shadow over the national horizon with the country entering the second half-century of nationhood, with increasing doubts among Malaysians about the meaning, permanence, sustainability and viability of constitutional guarantees, civil liberties and fundamental rights.

This is because the Lina Joy case has shattered confidence in the constitutional guarantees on freedom of religion, the Constitution as the supreme law of the land and above all, the sacred Merdeka “Social Contract” underlying the Constitution that Malaysia is a secular nation with Islam as the official religion but not an Islamic state.

Malaysians alarmed at the abandonment of the “Social Contract” principles are fully justified in their concerns, especially when one compares as to what would have happened to a Lina Joy case in the first quarter-century of the nation’s history as compared to today when the nation stands on its 50th year of nationhood!

After the disappointing Lina Joy judgment of the Federal Court yesterday, voices were heard from some Islamic groups urging “those hoping for an opposite outcome to reconsider their position and to consider modifying their expectations to suit what is good and more sustainable considering our realities” .

Moderate Malaysians, both Muslim and non-Muslim, must be very concerned by such voices as the same argument with the very same words could be used to justify the complete abandonment of the fundamental secular principle of the “Social Contract” for the establishment of an Islamic State!

On the occasion of Malaysia’s 50th Merdeka anniversary, the question that must be asked and answered by all Malaysians is: Malaysia — Quo Vadis!

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  1. #1 by cklife on Thursday, 31 May 2007 - 11:12 pm

    Sorry people, SATAN ROCKS!!!!!

    I LOVE SATAN….

    SATAN… GIVE ME THE POWER….

    SATAN IS THE KING.. THE LORD AND THE BEST OF THE BEST..

    BESTEST IN THE WORLD…

    YEAH… SATAN TOTALLY ROCKS…

    YOU’LL LOVE SATAN TOO

    May SATAN have mercy on you when you’re in HELL.

  2. #2 by mendela on Thursday, 31 May 2007 - 11:12 pm

    Our Muslim brothers and sisters’ faith in Islam must be extremely thin!

    If UMO allow Muslims to change faith, guess all the 13 Millions of Muslims in Malaysia will immediately jump ship!

    If above are not true, why UMO needs such a cruel way to control the Malays’ faith?

    By the way, Indonesians are allowed to choose one’s religion when he or she turns 21 years old.

  3. #3 by cklife on Thursday, 31 May 2007 - 11:16 pm

    Can SATANIST be written on IC?

    I wanna convert.

  4. #4 by pharisee on Thursday, 31 May 2007 - 11:27 pm

    Islam is no longer just a religion but also a powerful political force in the world. The many troubled nations in the world are Islamic nations; Iraq, Afghanistan, Middle East, Indonesia and closer to home; Southern Thailand.

    If Islam is the last message to mankind from Allah, then the previous messages should not be too far away from the truth as well. In fact, it should be as truthful as Islam itself.

    Malaysia does not reject Christians. But the people with power reject the desires of Muslims to leave Islam. The Quran and all the other Islamic books
    cease to have any authority the moment the person stops believing in its’ teachings. The problem comes from the Muslims themselves who are too rigid and refuse to think critically and logically beyond. Talk about a scientific, researching mind ! Islam does mention about people leaving Islam which means that since P. Mohd’s time, there were incidences of Muslims leaving Islam.

    In developed countries, people will not ask you for your age, your sex and your religion. Those are discriminatory data.

    It is men’s work that will not allow the erasure of the label Islam from the identity card. If things are so great, then it should have happen in split seconds and yet there is a drag of 6 years. Talk about great, what is so great in a yawn ?

    A lot of people convert to Islam for the main reason of marriage. Some for financial reasons. Some for security reasons. Some like our Everest climbers for privileges, benefits and fame reasons. All the wrong reasons. Where is the correct reason that you convert because Islam is truth for you like Cat Stevens who become Yusuf Islam ? And when you discover that you get nothing from Islam, you wish to leave and that’s when you find that you cannot. Don’t you know anything about Islam before you convert ? Don’t you know you cannot leave this religion legally ? Don’t you know you are bound by men’s laws and politics ? Don’t you know you will be severely dealt with if you leave Islam ? Do you know how severe this punishment can be ?

    Before I end, remember to get hold of a Quran in the English version and study it. Turn it into another book of law and help people who wish to embrace the truth.

  5. #5 by RGRaj on Thursday, 31 May 2007 - 11:28 pm

    It’s so sad that an innocent women has to leave her beloved country when the only “offense” she had done is to peacefully practise the religion of her choice & marry the man she loves.

    About the hundreds [deleted] waiting outside the court for the verdict; do they think their actions are going to make their religion look good?

  6. #6 by babique on Thursday, 31 May 2007 - 11:34 pm

    looks like people who are born a muslim in malaysia will have no freedom to choose other religious faith. this is worst than in indonesia.
    Thank God, i am not born a muslim.
    malaysia bodoh!

  7. #7 by Godamn Singh on Thursday, 31 May 2007 - 11:37 pm

    “By the way, Indonesians are allowed to choose one’s religion when he or she turns 21 years old.” Mendela

    Yes. Not only can they follow a religion of their choice, Muslims marry Christians and each retains his or her religion. Their children then belong to a faith called Krislam! No joke!

  8. #8 by toyolbuster on Thursday, 31 May 2007 - 11:46 pm

    Anyway, many malays in Malaysia have demonstrated how intolerant they are, and they have displayed their racist nature so blatantly. I don’t think Islam is all that because the muslims in Indonesia, Singapore, China are not like that. Certainly not in US or Europe. [deleted]

  9. #9 by eco on Friday, 1 June 2007 - 12:02 am

    If our Court can classify a Christian as a Muslim, any thing is possible. We are not called Bolehland for nothing!

  10. #10 by sybreon on Friday, 1 June 2007 - 12:35 am

    I’m now ashamed of being a Malaysian.

  11. #11 by sybreon on Friday, 1 June 2007 - 12:43 am

    (IANAL) The judiciary has just fundamentally breached the constitution. Shouldn’t judges be held accountable if they clearly neglect the constitution? Aren’t they supposed to defend and enforce the law? Isn’t the constitution the highest law in the country?

  12. #12 by sheriff singh on Friday, 1 June 2007 - 12:48 am

    Just think :

    - her family has disowned her for converting to Christianity
    - she lost her job, is jobless, unable to get employment
    - she is now in hiding, fearing for her safety
    - she’s a Christian but the religious fellows will probably come give her a muslim burial when the time comes
    - and more

    Everything is stacked against her. How much more must she suffer? Does she not have a place under the Malaysian sun? Is she not welcomed in her land of her birth? Can she petition the King for royal intervention?

    Perhaps someone should set up a fund for her.

    The silent, sleepy one must wake up and realise all is not well in Bodohland. It is getting extremely serious. Has he the courage and willingness to do something?

    And what has the Tun who likes Nehru suits got to say about his handiwork of the late 80s?

    What is the stand of Keadilan and PAS? Why are they silent?

    Lina Joy, we pray for you.

    Quo vadis? Hopefully not over the precipice.

  13. #13 by greenacre on Friday, 1 June 2007 - 1:37 am

    With due respect to sharia law and without touching on religion..i would ponder on this and only this …is Lina a civilian? Yes Did she go to a Civil law court? Yes did she complain about a civil institution i.e NRD ? yes..
    Then what the hell are these honourable judges talking about ?

  14. #14 by karlmarx8 on Friday, 1 June 2007 - 1:53 am

    The danger is not just one person. It concerns the world if those regimes concur with this Bolehland that such supremacy can ruled then the 3rd phase of the jihad rings true. I could have exaggerated…but only god knows!

  15. #15 by Godamn Singh on Friday, 1 June 2007 - 3:13 am

    “Can she petition the King for royal intervention?” Sheriff Singh

    The Agong?? How stupid can you get? Better keep to drinking cow’s milk and ginger.

  16. #16 by moong cha cha II on Friday, 1 June 2007 - 5:49 am

    with leakings here and there, and now Lina Joy, i think GE is further pushed backed.

    meanwhile, SMART tunnel will not collect TOL (i think) until GE held. so enjoy the tol free weeks / months

  17. #17 by raven77 on Friday, 1 June 2007 - 6:39 am

    THe Islamic state does not differ from the communist state. Citizens in both must conform to its rigid rules usually at the cost of personal freedom as in Saudi Arabia…..we fought the communists only to sacrifice the country silently to another political social structure….islamisation…..what do you do…..

  18. #18 by undergrad2 on Friday, 1 June 2007 - 7:51 am

    W.O or Wilson,

    I believe you’re referring to this statement

    “What ‘social contract’? The only contract is the one UMNO has signed with its members and supporters.”

    I made that posting in a lighter vein. Had you not taken it out of context you would have understood that what I meant to say was that the ‘social contract’ underlying our Federal Constitution of 1957 is being ignored or misunderstood or misrepresented and given its own interpretation to suit the aims and aspirations of UMNO.

    UMNO seems to have their own version of the ‘social contract’ underlying the document referred to as the Federal Malaysian Constitution of 1957. My argument is that through the numerous amendments to the document which we refer to as the Federal Malaysian Constitution of 1957, the essence of the underlying ‘social contract’ is all but lost. It is no longer recognizable.

    Can you tell me how many amendments have been passed since 1957? How many amendments have been made to the U.S. Constitution which is about 200 years old.

    When I wrote “What ‘social contract’ ?” it is not to take lightly the ‘social contract’ underlying our Constitution of 1957. The intention is to draw readers’ attention to UMNO’s interpretation of it – or to some, the non-adherence to the underlying ‘social contract’.

    Interpretation of certain constitutional provisions has been given narrow or wide meaning depending on one’s political affiliations. The thinking can get so convoluted that one doubts if it can withstand serious scrutiny. One such provision is Article 11 relating to freedom of religion.

  19. #19 by undergrad2 on Friday, 1 June 2007 - 8:09 am

    “The ” just suck it up” mentality is one which has caused Malaysian’s downfall – it’s something I’ve been passionately fighting against in all my writings..” W.O. Wilson

    Again this is what happens when what is said is taken out of context.

    When I say “DAP should just suck it in and walk away” I meant to draw attention of readers to the divisive nature of the issue of religious freedom is and has always been.

    DAp needs Malay votes to win the GE. So it has to be sensitive to their feelings about their religion and not be seen to be too aggresive in fighting for the rights of the non-Malay Muslim converts who wish to return to the original faiths.

    It is true it is about ideals and principles. But it is also about winning and winning the general elections.

    “To suck it in” means to accept it as a foregone conclusion i.e. Malays will have to remain Muslims. Nothing can be done to change it. Nothing should. I am not referring to the rights of the non-Malays and the non-Muslims to practice their own religions.

    On the other hand, how many cases of non-Malay converts wanting to return to their original faiths and have not been able to. There have been cases when this has been used to secure religious asylum in countries like New Zealand and Australia.

  20. #20 by good coolie on Friday, 1 June 2007 - 8:19 am

    Finally the FC has decided. It didn’t have to wait that long to give its decision, though! The law is that people in the position of Lina Joy must get a certification of their conversion – the conversion is already a fact – from the Syariah Court.
    The question is what guarantee is given by the government that people can make such an application for certification without loss of life and liberty to themselves? Lina Joy must make such an application. Her lawyers (perhaps Syariah court lawyers, now) will advise her of the possibility of affidavit evidence, given that it is not possible for her to be present personally, on security grounds.
    Lina Joy must follow- up on the valiant attempts that she has made up to now by submitting to the jurisdiction of the Syariah Court with the proviso that she acts so under express guarantees as to her safety.

  21. #21 by yokozuna58 on Friday, 1 June 2007 - 8:20 am

    http://rantingsbymm.blogspot.com/2007/05/do-we-believe-in-quran.html

    It starts off by stating “In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
    [2:256]
    Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God hath grasped the most trustworthy hand- hold, that never breaks. And God heareth and knoweth all things.

    So why is the Syariah court COMPELLING people who wants to opt out to continue in a faith they do not believe in anymore??

  22. #22 by negarawan on Friday, 1 June 2007 - 8:33 am

    I hope this issue of religious rights in Malaysia, and the issue of incarceration and imprisonment of people wanting to convert of Islam, will gain international exposure and highlight. International pressure must be stepped up against the government of Malaysia to adhere to basic human rights and values, even if it means imposing sanctions!

  23. #23 by undergrad2 on Friday, 1 June 2007 - 9:07 am

    It has! In 1999, the U.S. Department of State Profile on Malaysia (the Department issues one such report for every country every year) makes reference to “the penalty of death” for apostates, a policy followed by PAS.

  24. #24 by undergrad2 on Friday, 1 June 2007 - 9:09 am

    Malaysia is a sovereign state and cannot be forced though it can be persuaded.

  25. #25 by Jeffrey on Friday, 1 June 2007 - 9:30 am

    Quo vadis, a Latin phrase meaning “Where are you going?”

    We’re going West – towards Middle East.

    Islam came here centuries before 1957 Federal Constitution, its influence, gentle, non- obstrusive nor assertive, blending with local and other cultures and practices. Wayang Kulit, a part of our cultural heritage, as a visit to Museum Negara will testify, is traditionally based on the Hindu epics of the Ramayana and the Mahabharata. Where is it now? Then young Malay girls, with sarong wrapped around the breasts carried pails or earthenware pot to leaky communal pipes to take water. Now many wear head scarf and swim in public pools fully clothed. Then traditional greetings used to be “selamat pagi,” now the Arabic “assalam aleikum”.

    Then, in the 1988 case of Che Omar Che Soh v Public Prosecutor the five-member Federal Court led by then Lord President Tun Salleh Abas Federal Court ruled that Malaysia is a secular nation, and not an Islamic country. Today in 2007 the same Federal Court led by Tun Ahmad Fairuz by majority ruled that Lina Joy could not leave Islam without Syariah Court’s certification, leaving out from purview Article 11(1) of the Federal Constitution that “Every person has the right to profess and practise his religion in which “every person” include a Malay by birth like Azlina Jailani aka Lina Joy.

    The Prime Minister said that it was not a political decision : government did not exert pressure on the judges. Maybe. The three hundred or more gathered outside the Place of Justice, chanting prayers, might have. More than that, the pressure comes from everywhere – it is ubiquitous – the civil forces, the uniformed services, the religious establishment, the muslim group lobbies. The voices, calling for more and more Islamisation, have changed from subtle and soft, like a whisper, to stentorious with Islamic groups celebrating Lina Joy’s decision advising everyone that “those hoping for an opposite outcome to reconsider their position and to consider modifying their expectations to suit what is good and more sustainable considering our realities”……

    The realities are that Political Islam has got a strong foothold here after quarter of a century of aggressive Islamisation programmes embarked upon by the Mahathir Administration to out-islamise PAS in competition for Malay-Muslim votes.

    [Political Islam is a brand of the faith worldwide that is influenced by the Wahhabi and Salafi variant of the creed, a comparatively more rigid practice with many strictures insisting on the return to fundamental purity of original sacred texts and viewing the faith as all embracing on every aspect of one’s life and conduct. Wahhibism is a variant exported from and subsidized by the government of Saudi Arabia, distinct in its nature when religion is used by the state for political ends as what Ayatollah Khomeini achieved in the Iranian Revolution and used as a model by the Taliban mujaddin in Afghanistan. Unlike other traditions that accommodate dissenting views, the Wahhabis claim to possess an undebatable vision of “true or fundamantal Islam.” Such a vision of Islam holds the faith as an absolute truth, that all other religions are false and that there can be no meeting ground between a Muslim and a non-Muslim. Dialogue, debate or reasoning is not permissible under such a medieval version of Islam. Hence the conflicts in various flahpoints in the Middle East in which Political Islam and its adherants are engaged in a mortal conflict with the Modernity and Westernised values propagated by the Anglo Saxon Duo of US/UK representing the Judea-Christian traditions].

    Fueling the new Islamic identity is the steady process of transformation as ideas, practices and finances flow from the Arab world. The transformation brings about conflicts – not only within Islam as to its correct interpretation and desirable way of life, but also often among Muslims and others in otherwise tolerant and harmonious plural societies like Malaysia and Indonesia, where Islam originally arrived, mostly peacefully, through trade centuries before our 1957 Constitution.

    Fast forward 50 years thence after a proliferation of countless religious boarding schools (madrassas) buttressed by the return of many Islamic teachers and clerics from schools, colleges and universities in the Middle East, many of whom join the religious establishment, civil service, universities, indeed just about every sector, what realities do we now have?

    To be sure, many of our political elites are modernised and Western Educated, some more given to the hedonistic than the ascetic streak. Yet they have to maintain strict control and power over the religion that is so much a religio-cultural identity of the main constitutency over which PAS competes. Any perceived slackening to uphold the tenets of the faith is perceived a minus for UMNO and a plus for PAS.

    The PM speaks of Islam Hadari. It is to counter extremist interpretations. It is a good thing but how does it square against those around in overwhelming numbers whose agenda is Political Islam?

    When speaking of our 1957 Constitution, the issue has always been whether we could keep the integrity of that Constitution intact 50 years later when realities have changed especially amongst the majority malay Muslims.

    The controversies regarding the conversion cases of Moorthy Rayappan, Subashini, Marimuthu and Revathi and Benedict Gopal, Perak Mufti Harussani’s SMS episode , the restrictions on Article 11 forums, the postponement of international Muslim-Christian dialogue – the Building Bridges seminar – organized by the London office of the Archbishop of Canterbury, the reluctance to amend the lacunae in Article 121(1A) of the Federal Constitution and the Lina Joy decision have to be viewed from the context of these new realities signified by mobs outside pressing for their agenda.

    Like it or not, we still however have a substantial Non malay muslim pupulation for whom the Constitution structured around 1957 realities is the important Social Contract!

    But that proportion is fast dwindling as the young and educated choose to take flight by emigration than fight, whilst those who remain have very small families so as to concentrate available resources for maximisation of educational opportunties – also in preparation of flight!

    And no matter how just and right is the Cause for civil liberties and the intregrity of the Constitution its proponents, by their education, training and disposition, are not prepared at all to demonstrate or become a “mob” so to speak to demand their agenda : so what kind of pressure can they exert compared to those presurring for the opposite agenda and prepared to do anything to uphold it? The 300 or more gathered outside the Palace of Justice awaiting the Lina Joy’s decision are testimony of this.

    That in a nut shell is the sad story, the plight and dilemma of non malays in this country.

  26. #26 by mendela on Friday, 1 June 2007 - 9:46 am

    Who would want to further invest in Malaysia if this country is run by idiots, extremists and fanatics?

    A single silly ruling on Lina alone would undo a RM 100 Millions worth of world wide advertisement to promote Malaysia as Truly Asia!

    Truly my foot!

  27. #27 by Jeffrey on Friday, 1 June 2007 - 10:09 am

    Interesting our “inverted” feudal norms : if you are rich and “suck up”, you maximise your chance of procuring the conferment of honorific titles supposedly engendering respect like Datuks and Tan Sri ship. If you stand your ground, refuse to suck up or refuse to submit to tyranny of majority on grounds of conscience, you get the title of being “stupid”! :)

  28. #28 by mendela on Friday, 1 June 2007 - 10:23 am

    All this explained why Muslims population grows so fast in Malaysia:

    1. Immediate citizenship (Bumi status too) for illegals if they are Muslims
    2. Inter-marriage between a Muslim and one with other faith, spouse and kids are all forcefully become Muslims.
    3. Non-believers but turns into a Muslim to make life easier to do business, gain advantages, etc.
    4. Non-Muslims turning into a Muslim in order to be able to get 4 wifes
    5. To divorce easier
    6. Mistake by Mycard officers when typing the religion column.

    Guess in another 50 years, all Malaysians are Muslims!

  29. #29 by Jeffrey on Friday, 1 June 2007 - 10:25 am

    I think Malaysiakini reported that Lina Joy would now likely emigrate with the one whom she intended to marry – after the exhausion of all legal avenues on the matter of her constitutional right to religion. As to why Lina Joy didn’t do it earlier, the following are her statements reported in 2 newspapers (NST & The Star):

    New Straits Times

    “I am disappointed that the Federal Court is not able to vindicate a simple but important fundamental right that exists in all persons, namely, the right to believe in religion of one’s choice, and equally important, the right to marry a person of one’s choice and to raise a family in the Malaysian context.

    The Federal Court has not only denied me that rights but to all Malaysians who value fundamental freedoms.

    I am hoping that my case would have made a difference to the development of constitutional issues in the plight of many others.

    Asked if she would leave Malaysia for good, she said: It would be extremely difficult to exercise freedom of conscience in the present environment”.

    Star

    “Only God knows what is in my heart and I hope everyone will respect my conviction.”

    I submit that nothing in her statements reflect that she has been a “fool”.

  30. #30 by mendela on Friday, 1 June 2007 - 10:44 am

    Another big reason why Muslims population grows so fast is Muslims normally do not practice family planning and birth controls.

    This lead to Muslims are always relatively poorer than the Chinese.
    This makes NEP a never ending policy.

  31. #31 by k1980 on Friday, 1 June 2007 - 10:48 am

    http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/05/31/asia/AS-GEN-Malaysia-Christian-Convert.php

    Joy said, “I am disappointed that the Federal Court is not able to vindicate a simple but important fundamental right that exists in all persons: namely, the right to believe in the religion of one’s choice. The Federal Court has not only denied me that right, but (denied it) to all Malaysians who value fundamental freedoms”….

    Joy, however, has refused to seek the Shariah court’s permission, saying she is a Christian and should not be bound by Islamic laws. If she continues to practice Christianity, she faces being charged with apostasy, which is punishable by a jail sentence and fine. She also has the option to leave the country…

    “We believe that the constitutional provision in Article 11 which guarantees freedom of religion in our country has been severely violated,” the council’s president Thomas Philips Shastri said. But the constitution is silent on which legal system has the final word in disputes such as Joy’s. In practice, the civil courts have accepted the unwritten superiority of the Shariah courts even though the constitution describes Malaysia as a secular state.

  32. #32 by moong cha cha II on Saturday, 2 June 2007 - 11:13 am

    if the NRD made a mistake and typed ” Muslim” in my Mykad, and refused to change even after i wrote letters of protest to NRD, do i need to apply to the Shariah Court (even though I am not a Muslim), as the judge said in Lina Joy’s case, “this is concerning religious matters” ?

  33. #33 by megaman on Saturday, 2 June 2007 - 11:14 am

    to be honest …

    I think the only way to leave Islam if you are a Msian is to leave Msian citizenship behind as well …

    Doing it any other way would get you:

    a) Detention in some religious camp for brainwashing programme & psychological torture into staying back in the religion.

    b) Delays and delays and more hassle at the Syariah courts

    c) Threats and harassments from ‘religious’ groups

    *shake head* …

  34. #34 by Billy on Saturday, 2 June 2007 - 11:35 am

    Our local Muslims believe that the Syariah Court is the one and only COURT for them to settle their issues. If that is the case, then why are there many Muslims still seeking legal redress from the civil courts?
    Hello, kawan, you can’t have the best of both worlds. It is either the Syariah Court for you or the Civil courts, or are you saying that you have no faith in the syariah courts that you need to seek remedies from the civil court. If that is the case, then why all the shouts about the virtues of the Syariah court? Razak Baginda who is involved in the Mongolian model murder case is having his case heard in the civil court. Why not the Syariah court, after all he is a Muslim? Therefore something tells me that the Syariah court is flawed, and I wish to stand corrected on this issue. Thanks.

  35. #35 by dawsheng on Saturday, 2 June 2007 - 11:47 am

    The PM speaks of Islam Hadari. It is to counter extremist interpretations. It is a good thing but how does it square against those around in overwhelming numbers whose agenda is Political Islam? Jeffrey

    By now we know Islam Hadhari is nothing sort of countering extremist elements among Muslim Malaysia, instead PM Abdullah’s statement further reinforced that the nature of Islam Hadhari was in line with the court decision on Lina Joy. The ruling has not breached the social contract directly but only contradicts it, the contradictions however are signalling that the numbers whose agenda is political Islam is in fact overwhelming, this confirmed our one way ticket to the middle east. Some Muslims has argued that Lina Joy should stick to proper channel, follow the guidelines and seek permission to denounce Islam at the Syariah Court quietly, get a certificate and strike off the word “Muslim” from her Mykad at the NRD. If the avenue for any Muslims to denounce Islam truly exists in the Syariah Court, that is where we should find the answer of where we all will really be going. My opinion is that DAP can only make a secular stand on the matter, but it is definitely not a subject to be politicize to gain votes, because the chances of losing more votes from the muslims will be far greater than gaining votes from the muslims.

  36. #36 by mangodurian on Saturday, 2 June 2007 - 12:15 pm

    What Jeffrey said about dwindling non-Muslim/Malay population is very true. However, it is something that I cannot undertand with them. I know for sure every non-Malay grumble about how they are discriminated against.

    Yet, they still vote for UMNO lackies – MCA and MIC – “for the sake of stability”. Every year, their rights are eroded. Every year, they are not only 2nd class – but sliding to 3rd class residents.

    They are just contented with getting 3 meals and signing away every right. But that’s how institutionalisation is. After all, the ancestors of the Indians and Chinese chose to run from their respective countries. To do that, you really must have a mentality to submit to the host country.

    In short, I don’t really think the majority of Chinese and Indians do feel as citizens in the true sense. I mean, how do you feel like a citizen when you get better treatment as an immigrant in Canada or Slovenia than you do in your own country.

    So at the end of the day, why do they keep whining? They voted for this.

  37. #37 by Jong on Saturday, 2 June 2007 - 12:22 pm

    Looking at the decision rejecting Lina Joy’s appeal, for the government of the day – could “harakiri” have already been performed?

    The government is not taking us and moving forward in this 21st century instead, we are getting more and more talibanised by the day. The People’s basic fundamental rights have been greatly eroded.

  38. #38 by cklife on Saturday, 2 June 2007 - 12:36 pm

    SATANIST should be recognized as a religion.

    Can anyone accompany me to put that in my IC?

  39. #39 by Jong on Saturday, 2 June 2007 - 12:54 pm

    The decision leading to Lina Joy’s appeal was not unexpected.

    Three Judges – two muslims and one of the christian faith, what would one expect the two muslim judges to do even if they would have decided otherwise, bearing in mind the reaction from islamic extremists, and repercussion they’d have to endure?

  40. #40 by petyew on Saturday, 2 June 2007 - 3:21 pm

    I can’t help feeling that our government have unwittingly got themselves caught into a dangerous corner that is almost impossible to undo without causing an emotional reaction from the islamic diehards who think that they are guardians of muslim souls.

    Over the years when islamic extremism rear its ugly head, the government decided to play along to appease those who could swing their votes to PAS. We are seeing the foolishness of that decision today. I am not surprised at the verdict. If the constitution is indeed upheld, Lina would have gotten her wish to be declared a Christian. It is not true that she change religion out of whim and fancy. Even if the learned judge is correct, who is he to be the judge of that decision? Religion is after the choice of an individual and the state cannot compel a citizen to be of a particular faith when he or she no longer believe. Just as when a couple has irreconciliable differences and seek a divorce in court, would the court refuse that application? It is the interpretation of the law that I believe the learned judges have erred.

    It is true that the muslims are appeased by the decision, but the unhappiness will continue. There must be many muslims who want out of their faith and be christians, or buddhists or hindus. Can their rights be denied just because they did not have a choice of being born muslims? It seems like a death sentence to them and worst, their children and grandchildren are similarly trapped.

    It the years to come, as our people become more open and demand their rights to make own choices and decisions, the recent judgement will return to haunt the judges who ruled that Lina Joy cannot leave her original faith and want that declaration properly stated in her MyKad. All she want is a life without state interference. Constitutionally she has broken no law.

    To suggest that she find recourse from the Syariah Court is to ask her to surrender herself to be detained and fined or counseled. For once, I wish that people who want to play god realize that Lina has long ago left Islam. If she has had her doubts, her case would not have been heard. It seems that she indeed has found the truth in Christianity. That is something our muslims religious leaders fear, the truth of a religion that could be more right than Islam.

  41. #41 by Irene on Saturday, 2 June 2007 - 5:03 pm

    Where are our rights to worship a religion of our own choice? Non muslim (i.e. christians, buddhist, hindus, taoist etc….) can convert whenever and wherever they want as they give the full respect to one own believes and choice. WHY can’t Islam be the same. They just want to be different and make others hate them. Religion is just a very very personal believe and nobody in this world should force individual to a religion just because they are born to a family of a religion NOT of their own choice.
    IF THEY CAN CHOOSE THEIR OWN LIFE PARTNER WHY ON EARTH THEY CANNOT CHOOSE THEIR OWN RELIGION AND DROP THE RELIGION THEY HAVE BORN INTO.

    WHY the 2 judges who decline Lina’s application being a learned man cannot reasons out that religion is a VERY VERY PERSONAL MATTER and judgement should be granted as according to her believes and NOT do the Country’s political beleives.

    ISLAMIC LEADERS WANTS QUALITY AND TRUE FOLLOWERS OR JUST QUANTITY FOLLOWERS (THE MORE THE MERRIER). It looks like the answer is : Islimic leaders want QUANTITY ONLY.

  42. #42 by k1980 on Saturday, 2 June 2007 - 5:45 pm

  43. #43 by Jeffrey on Saturday, 2 June 2007 - 6:28 pm

    “…//….If they can choose their own life partner why on earth they cannot choose their own religion and drop the religion they have born into??…..//….” – Irene.

    There is no inconsistency there.

    In the latter case, if one were allowed to choose to opt out, the Religion loses one less adherent. In the former case, when one chooses one’s own life partner, the Religion gains one additional adherent.

    In politics, quality implies people will question and may not support the leaders. Quantity, without quality of the questioning kind, means more votes, more strength for such leaders.

  44. #44 by robert wong on Saturday, 2 June 2007 - 9:12 pm

    I guess all other faith followers can take the Lina Joy court’s decision with an open-mind. Would the malaysian muslims take it with an open mind if the decision is otherwise?

    something is totally wrong here. Well I guess they don’t have the chance to study all other religions. They all live like ” Katak Di bawah tempurong”

    “peace be unto you”

  45. #45 by Count Dracula on Saturday, 2 June 2007 - 9:30 pm

    Irene,

    You must be very young or very native and immature!

    “If they can choose their own life partners why on earth can they not choose their own religion and drop the religion” Irene

    Because, dear Irene, there is a document called the Federal Constitution of Malaysia 1957 – if you are a Malay and a Muslim.

    Judges do not make their own laws. They only interpret the laws passed by Parliament. If their reasoning is convoluted or appears to be convoluted there is such a thing called ‘appeal’ and the country’s Courts of Appeal. If the matter has come before the highest court of the land, the Federal Court, who concurs with the lower courts then you have exhausted your appeal.

    In the past civil matters were allowed to go before the Privy Council in the U.K. Malaysia is a sovereign state and it is humiliating to have foreign courts decide our law and not our courts.

  46. #46 by DiaperHead on Sunday, 3 June 2007 - 1:12 am

    I think Lina Joy should be flogged and stoned to death.

  47. #47 by moong cha cha II on Sunday, 3 June 2007 - 2:55 am

    he was burnt to death by the Catholic Church in Italy becos he supported what Copernicus said that the sun was the centre of the universe and not the earth.

    The Catholic Church couldnt accept it.

    That was around 1600.

    Look at Europe today &
    look at the Muslim countries today.

  48. #48 by moong cha cha II on Sunday, 3 June 2007 - 2:57 am

    he was Giordano Bruno

  49. #49 by RGRaj on Sunday, 3 June 2007 - 7:04 am

    Undergrad2 said:

    ” “To suck it in” means to accept it as a foregone conclusion i.e. Malays will have to remain Muslims. Nothing can be done to change it. Nothing should. I am not referring to the rights of the non-Malays and the non-Muslims to practice their own religions. ”

    Malaysia is the only country in the world where the constituition itself (no less) says that a particular race has to belong to a particular religion. No other country follows this ruling. Not even Saudi Arabia (birthplace of Islam), or Indonesia (largest Muslim population).

  50. #50 by BoDo Singh on Sunday, 3 June 2007 - 7:32 am

    True. But until Article 160(2) is revoked it will provide the legal basis, keeping Malays leaving the religion of their birth.

    A Malay is by definition a Muslim. So if he ceases to be a Muslim he loses his ethnicity. That’s crap! Politicians are good at messing with everyone’s head when their own heads are not facing the right way!

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