Comments on: Sukhoi fighter jet deal - something fishy http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2007/05/27/sukhoi-fighter-jet-deal-something-fishy/ for Malaysia Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:15:10 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: logicman75 http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2007/05/27/sukhoi-fighter-jet-deal-something-fishy/#comment-138879 logicman75 Sun, 28 Sep 2008 13:18:37 +0000 http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2007/05/27/sukhoi-fighter-jet-deal-something-fishy/#comment-138879 I believe that under table money is paid on the Sukhoi Deals. I also believe that Malaysia could get a much better price after firece negotiations as this is an RFI, RFQ. Sukhoi aircraft sold to Vietnam and China differ alot in terms of avionics, weapons systems and more. If you go an read how defence purchase are made, there are a couple of aspect that people should know which is the purchasing method. Once includes fly away cost and the other is a unit fly away cost. What differs is the latter has insurance and warranty and tested by factory pilots for certification. The first is aircraft coming out of the factory way malaysian engineers need to test, pay for aviation fuel and certify by themselves with no warranty. There is 2 substantial cost difference among these. You can add a package of weapons which are not sold on units of missiles but a propwer package. Like vietnam, they have ordered the aircraft but not the weapon package as the weapon are already available. This same applies to China and India. As for Malaysia, we bought a weapons package that is abit more different to those weapons bought for the MIG-29 even though both are interchangeable for some weapons but not all the weapons. Malaysia also purchased warranty and certified guarantee plus large amount of spare part. Vietnam didn't do that and so did india as the spare parts are already there and never calculated. Why Malaysia sent pilots to be trained in India and not Russia as the earlier batch was done so in Russia but due to Language problem, were sent to India due to their english speaking nature and that they are expert in using and maintaining Russian weapons systems. Though i dont suspect RM 180m going into someone's pocket but maybe less than that!...In Malaysia, all defence arrangements are arranged through middleman, agents as they are called. Why because the agents may have influence within the MINDEF. We aren't the only country in the world that do this. Basically every country in the world does this in a corrupt way, some are so sophisticated that no one will know until several years latter!..We Malaysians are good at corruption but we just dont' do it sophisticatedly nor do we hide it efficiently!.. I believe that under table money is paid on the Sukhoi Deals. I also believe that Malaysia could get a much better price after firece negotiations as this is an RFI, RFQ.
Sukhoi aircraft sold to Vietnam and China differ alot in terms of avionics, weapons systems and more. If you go an read how defence purchase are made, there are a couple of aspect that people should know which is the purchasing method. Once includes fly away cost and the other is a unit fly away cost. What differs is the latter has insurance and warranty and tested by factory pilots for certification. The first is aircraft coming out of the factory way malaysian engineers need to test, pay for aviation fuel and certify by themselves with no warranty. There is 2 substantial cost difference among these. You can add a package of weapons which are not sold on units of missiles but a propwer package. Like vietnam, they have ordered the aircraft but not the weapon package as the weapon are already available. This same applies to China and India. As for Malaysia, we bought a weapons package that is abit more different to those weapons bought for the MIG-29 even though both are interchangeable for some weapons but not all the weapons. Malaysia also purchased warranty and certified guarantee plus large amount of spare part. Vietnam didn’t do that and so did india as the spare parts are already there and never calculated.
Why Malaysia sent pilots to be trained in India and not Russia as the earlier batch was done so in Russia but due to Language problem, were sent to India due to their english speaking nature and that they are expert in using and maintaining Russian weapons systems. Though i dont suspect RM 180m going into someone’s pocket but maybe less than that!…In Malaysia, all defence arrangements are arranged through middleman, agents as they are called. Why because the agents may have influence within the MINDEF. We aren’t the only country in the world that do this. Basically every country in the world does this in a corrupt way, some are so sophisticated that no one will know until several years latter!..We Malaysians are good at corruption but we just dont’ do it sophisticatedly nor do we hide it efficiently!..

]]> By: Alharam http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2007/05/27/sukhoi-fighter-jet-deal-something-fishy/#comment-111181 Alharam Wed, 18 Jun 2008 08:32:24 +0000 http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2007/05/27/sukhoi-fighter-jet-deal-something-fishy/#comment-111181 Hi. Ronnie liu speakinhg here. For me all this jets buisness is just a waste of goverment funds. Why waste the people money? Why dont we give the people free water so they can waste more water? Why dont we give the power to the people and ignore all the laws? Why dont we do more and more street demos becouse its seems to be so much fun? Why dont we ram the FRU with a car and put all the blame on the police for being to hard even though somebody just ramed them with a car? Yes lets do that….. Who do we want to fight anyway… Yes.. We must not buy all this weopons becouse it seems to offensive by our neighbouring countries.. Eventhough their armed forces are far more advance than ours we must never follow in their misrable path.. This is a community reminder by ur friendly neighberhood superhero Ronnie Liu YB of Pandamaran. Hi. Ronnie liu speakinhg here. For me all this jets buisness is just a waste of goverment funds. Why waste the people money? Why dont we give the people free water so they can waste more water? Why dont we give the power to the people and ignore all the laws? Why dont we do more and more street demos becouse its seems to be so much fun? Why dont we ram the FRU with a car and put all the blame on the police for being to hard even though somebody just ramed them with a car? Yes lets do that….. Who do we want to fight anyway… Yes.. We must not buy all this weopons becouse it seems to offensive by our neighbouring countries.. Eventhough their armed forces are far more advance than ours we must never follow in their misrable path.. This is a community reminder by ur friendly neighberhood superhero Ronnie Liu YB of Pandamaran.

]]> By: Alharam http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2007/05/27/sukhoi-fighter-jet-deal-something-fishy/#comment-111180 Alharam Wed, 18 Jun 2008 08:31:06 +0000 http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2007/05/27/sukhoi-fighter-jet-deal-something-fishy/#comment-111180 As compared to Singapore, Thailand and to a certain extent Indonesia, the modernisation of our armed forces are highly unlikely to make them quake in their boots. Vietnam even has a potent SAM battery, the S300. The modernisation of our armed forces are necessary and timely. Thailand recently bought 12 Gripen and 2 AEW planes for USD 1.2 Billion, more expensive than our USD 900 Million purchase of 18 SU-30MKM and assortment of missiles. The SU-30MKM has better payload, greater range, same avionics as the Gripen, better manouverability than Gripen thanks to its TVC, better future than Gripen due to the big number of Flanker fleets in Asia. Singapore recently purchased a squadron of F-15s, several La Fayette Class FFGs, 2 more subs, and to ensure enough carnage in case of war, HIMARS. And if one bothers to check the US DoD report, Singapore bought additional 200 AIM120Ds, 200 AIM9X in ‘05. Indonesia is doing the same as well, in August 2007 they have agreed to purchase USD 1 billion worth of arms from Russia. Thailand for reason best known to themselves, bought an aircraft carrier ! I believe weapons spending is a sheer waste of resources, but having said that .. this is the reality of life that we live. Weapons spending is a necessity. Which is why any ToT, off set programme is a welcome addition. I remember during the Ambalat crisis we had with Indonesia, the Indonesians were sending surface vessels, several F16s in a show of force. Our Govertment was sane enough not to send our MiG-29s or FA-18s to counter Indonesia’s F16 or sending our Lekiu Class FFGs. We only sent a few small patrol boats there. The Pulau Batu Putih/Prada Branca episode with Singapore, well .. less sabre rattling but enough boats were sent that could lead to minor skirmishes. I remember 2-3 years ago, some Philippines Senator was making dumb threat of invading Sabah. He was later told by his colleague that their armed forces would be slaughtered by the Malaysian military had they attempted. Correct me if I am wrong, Thais, Indonesia and Singapore have had submarines more than 10 years ago. By now they would have an established submarine doctrine. We are just getting our toes wet in this Sub business. I wish we live in better times, in times of peace, not of fragile peace. That all apparatus of destruction is shipped to space and dumped as junk. I am not suggesting that Thais, Indonesia, Singapore, Philippines are our enemy, but they have constantly upgraded their defence capability and we need to do the same. I know it is is not nice to suppress any views, but some idiot out there would say that we are no match for US. If defence purchase is measured by whether a country can defend against US, no one will purchase arms since the defence spending of US is bigger than UK/Russia/China/France put together. As compared to Singapore, Thailand and to a certain extent Indonesia, the modernisation of our armed forces are highly unlikely to make them quake in their boots. Vietnam even has a potent SAM battery, the S300.

The modernisation of our armed forces are necessary and timely.

Thailand recently bought 12 Gripen and 2 AEW planes for USD 1.2 Billion, more expensive than our USD 900 Million purchase of 18 SU-30MKM and assortment of missiles. The SU-30MKM has better payload, greater range, same avionics as the Gripen, better manouverability than Gripen thanks to its TVC, better future than Gripen due to the big number of Flanker fleets in Asia.

Singapore recently purchased a squadron of F-15s, several La Fayette Class FFGs, 2 more subs, and to ensure enough carnage in case of war, HIMARS. And if one bothers to check the US DoD report, Singapore bought additional 200 AIM120Ds, 200 AIM9X in ‘05.

Indonesia is doing the same as well, in August 2007 they have agreed to purchase USD 1 billion worth of arms from Russia.

Thailand for reason best known to themselves, bought an aircraft carrier !

I believe weapons spending is a sheer waste of resources, but having said that .. this is the reality of life that we live. Weapons spending is a necessity. Which is why any ToT, off set programme is a welcome addition.

I remember during the Ambalat crisis we had with Indonesia, the Indonesians were sending surface vessels, several F16s in a show of force. Our Govertment was sane enough not to send our MiG-29s or FA-18s to counter Indonesia’s F16 or sending our Lekiu Class FFGs. We only sent a few small patrol boats there.

The Pulau Batu Putih/Prada Branca episode with Singapore, well .. less sabre rattling but enough boats were sent that could lead to minor skirmishes.

I remember 2-3 years ago, some Philippines Senator was making dumb threat of invading Sabah. He was later told by his colleague that their armed forces would be slaughtered by the Malaysian military had they attempted.

Correct me if I am wrong, Thais, Indonesia and Singapore have had submarines more than 10 years ago. By now they would have an established submarine doctrine. We are just getting our toes wet in this Sub business.

I wish we live in better times, in times of peace, not of fragile peace. That all apparatus of destruction is shipped to space and dumped as junk.

I am not suggesting that Thais, Indonesia, Singapore, Philippines are our enemy, but they have constantly upgraded their defence capability and we need to do the same.

I know it is is not nice to suppress any views, but some idiot out there would say that we are no match for US. If defence purchase is measured by whether a country can defend against US, no one will purchase arms since the defence spending of US is bigger than UK/Russia/China/France put together.

]]> By: Alharam http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2007/05/27/sukhoi-fighter-jet-deal-something-fishy/#comment-111179 Alharam Wed, 18 Jun 2008 08:29:27 +0000 http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2007/05/27/sukhoi-fighter-jet-deal-something-fishy/#comment-111179 Not acquiring sophisticated weapons will not end corruption. The former is not the root cause of the latter. Do we need the Su-30MKM and the Scorpene SSK? A definite, “Yes!” Should all Malaysians should fight corruption? Off course. But not by leaving us weaker vis-a-vis other countries. Friendly neighbours become covetous when they feel they can get away with it. Not acquiring sophisticated weapons will not end corruption. The former is not the root cause of the latter.

Do we need the Su-30MKM and the Scorpene SSK? A definite, “Yes!” Should all Malaysians should fight corruption? Off course. But not by leaving us weaker vis-a-vis other countries. Friendly neighbours become covetous when they feel they can get away with it.

]]> By: Alharam http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2007/05/27/sukhoi-fighter-jet-deal-something-fishy/#comment-111178 Alharam Wed, 18 Jun 2008 08:28:52 +0000 http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2007/05/27/sukhoi-fighter-jet-deal-something-fishy/#comment-111178 Oh, when Singapore goes on a spending spree for its defence modernisation, it’s okay. It’s okay for them to have more than 90 F-16 Fighting Falcons and in the process of acquiring F-15 Eagles to beef up its air superiority arsenal. Tapi kita di Malaysia tak boleh? Kenapa pulak? I think the Sukhois are necessary. Tolong la berbangga sikit dengan negara. Jangan sampai this turns into something racial. Oh, when Singapore goes on a spending spree for its defence modernisation, it’s okay. It’s okay for them to have more than 90 F-16 Fighting Falcons and in the process of acquiring F-15 Eagles to beef up its air superiority arsenal. Tapi kita di Malaysia tak boleh? Kenapa pulak? I think the Sukhois are necessary. Tolong la berbangga sikit dengan negara. Jangan sampai this turns into something racial.

]]> By: steiner http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2007/05/27/sukhoi-fighter-jet-deal-something-fishy/#comment-104625 steiner Fri, 16 May 2008 16:35:03 +0000 http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2007/05/27/sukhoi-fighter-jet-deal-something-fishy/#comment-104625 those who criticise about malaysian su-30 mkm's procurement should consider this: "AKhK Sukhoi supplies to Vietnam four Su-30 MK2 fighters Sukhoi aviation holding company has delivered to Vietnam four Su-30 MK2 heavy fighters, the company said in a statement. The contract was made in December of 2003. In 2004, the company entered into the contracts for delivery of 50 planes of Su type with the aggregate contract value over $2.5 bln. As informed, establishment of OAO Sukhoi aviation holding company (AKhK Sukhoi) has been completed this year. In particular, AKhK Sukhoi received in management 74.5% both in Komsomolsk-on-Amur aviation production association (KNAAPO) and Novosibirsk Aviation Production Association (NAPO) as well as 13% in Irkut Corporation, 38% in Taganrog Aviation Research and Engineering Complex (TANTK), 50% plus a stock in OKB Sukoi. State-run stake in the holding stands at 100%. Gateway to Russia - December 20, 2004. " http://patrick.guenin2.free.fr/cantho/vnnews/sukhoi.htm procurement made in year 2003 cost as much as what has been charged to malaysian government which is at the average value of myr50 million/unit (omitting the other things included in the package) those who criticise about malaysian su-30 mkm’s procurement should consider this:

“AKhK Sukhoi supplies to Vietnam four Su-30 MK2 fighters
Sukhoi aviation holding company has delivered to Vietnam four Su-30 MK2 heavy fighters, the company said in a statement. The contract was made in December of 2003. In 2004, the company entered into the contracts for delivery of 50 planes of Su type with the aggregate contract value over $2.5 bln.

As informed, establishment of OAO Sukhoi aviation holding company (AKhK Sukhoi) has been completed this year. In particular, AKhK Sukhoi received in management 74.5% both in Komsomolsk-on-Amur aviation production association (KNAAPO) and Novosibirsk Aviation Production Association (NAPO) as well as 13% in Irkut Corporation, 38% in Taganrog Aviation Research and Engineering Complex (TANTK), 50% plus a stock in OKB Sukoi. State-run stake in the holding stands at 100%.

Gateway to Russia - December 20, 2004. ”

http://patrick.guenin2.free.fr/cantho/vnnews/sukhoi.htm

procurement made in year 2003 cost as much as what has been charged to malaysian government which is at the average value of myr50 million/unit (omitting the other things included in the package)

]]> By: aztechx http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2007/05/27/sukhoi-fighter-jet-deal-something-fishy/#comment-63334 aztechx Sat, 15 Dec 2007 14:13:59 +0000 http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2007/05/27/sukhoi-fighter-jet-deal-something-fishy/#comment-63334 well..our Sukhois were equipped with state of the art avionics and were custom made according to our needs..our order was considered very much of the high end which means the price cant be compared to those of vietnam because their orders were for a 'basic' Su-30..a better comparison would be with the indians Su-30MkI..but the indian sukhois were manufactured in india as they had approved license from sukhoi to produce those planes there..that would explain the cheaper price..PLUS,we had to go through the hassle of replacing the israelis avionics with those from thales(france) and south africa whereas the MkI came with the default avionics.. just my 2 cents.. :) well..our Sukhois were equipped with state of the art avionics and were custom made according to our needs..our order was considered very much of the high end which means the price cant be compared to those of vietnam because their orders were for a ‘basic’ Su-30..a better comparison would be with the indians Su-30MkI..but the indian sukhois were manufactured in india as they had approved license from sukhoi to produce those planes there..that would explain the cheaper price..PLUS,we had to go through the hassle of replacing the israelis avionics with those from thales(france) and south africa whereas the MkI came with the default avionics..

just my 2 cents.. :)

]]> By: dk http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2007/05/27/sukhoi-fighter-jet-deal-something-fishy/#comment-61861 dk Sun, 09 Dec 2007 19:10:04 +0000 http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2007/05/27/sukhoi-fighter-jet-deal-something-fishy/#comment-61861 Btw, i heard singpore got aircraft carrier...that seems rather radical for such a country to make such a procurement...do i see their need for an aircraft carrier? Maybe no land to build airport hehe...LK Yew's pretty delussioned sometimes... Btw, i heard singpore got aircraft carrier…that seems rather radical for such a country to make such a procurement…do i see their need for an aircraft carrier? Maybe no land to build airport hehe…LK Yew’s pretty delussioned sometimes…

]]> By: dk http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2007/05/27/sukhoi-fighter-jet-deal-something-fishy/#comment-61859 dk Sun, 09 Dec 2007 19:02:03 +0000 http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2007/05/27/sukhoi-fighter-jet-deal-something-fishy/#comment-61859 to kurakura: Su-30 is designed for the purpose of air superiority compared to F-16 which is a multi-role fighter. So in terms of technical capabilities...Su-30s are at a vantage point in a dogfight. But no use great planes without great pilots...then again, when it comes to skills and training, our pilots are fammished compared to singpore's experienced pilots. Only a fight may tell us of the outcome...very subjective indeed. to kurakura: Su-30 is designed for the purpose of air superiority compared to F-16 which is a multi-role fighter. So in terms of technical capabilities…Su-30s are at a vantage point in a dogfight. But no use great planes without great pilots…then again, when it comes to skills and training, our pilots are fammished compared to singpore’s experienced pilots. Only a fight may tell us of the outcome…very subjective indeed.

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